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Neo-Nazi killings, apathy shock German minorities

The Local · 17 Nov 2011, 17:14

Published: 17 Nov 2011 17:14 GMT+01:00

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For years, German police struggled to solve the killings of nine shopkeepers with immigrant roots.

Derisively dubbed the “Döner (Kebab) Murders” because the victims included eight Turks and one Greek, the bumbling authorities assumed they had somehow been involved in a foreign criminal underworld rather than victims of wanton neo-Nazi violence.

But that all changed last week when it emerged that they had actually been brutally slain between 2000 and 2006 by a far-right terror group calling itself the Nationalist Socialist Underground (NSU).

The revelations – and how German society has reacted to them – have left millions of people with immigrant heritage wondering just how safe they are and if average Germans even care.

Technical discussion

“In the last few days the discussion has been very technical,” Kenan Kolat, head of a leading Turkish community organization, told The Local this week.

He said the country’s politicians, media and the police at first seemed more interested in the damage to Germany’s reputation than those murdered and their families. “Society needs to have a discussion on the issue of racism in light of what’s happened,” Kolat said.

While German security officials have been largely interested in the threat posed by Islamist terrorists in recent years, minority organizations like Kolat’s have long warned that their communities are under daily threat by far-right extremists. But their concerns fell too often on deaf ears.

In fact, after the role of neo-Nazis in the “Döner Murders” was revealed, it was only Germany’s Jewish community – which has expressed similar concerns – that immediately offered its solidarity, Kolat said.

Dieter Graumann, president of the German Jewish Council, on Thursday said the moniker used was symptomatic of the broader xenophobia in German society.

“This wasn’t about destroying döner kebabs, a fascist killer commando butchered people,” said Graumann in a statement, adding Germany was staring into “abyss of right-wing extremism.”

Anetta Kahane from the Amadeu Antonio Foundation, which works against right-wing extremism, said regular Germans have tended to underestimate the threat from xenophobia groups.

“There is a deeper problem in German society with attitudes toward immigrants,” she told The Local. “These are victims of right-wing extremism and they should be treated as such. Yes people talk about it, but not enough is being done.”

According to research by Der Tagesspiegel and Die Zeit last year, the number of deaths caused by far-right violence has been vastly underreported. The two newspapers estimated there were nearly 150 killings by right-wing extremists between 1990 and 2010, far below the official count of 47.

In recent days, a sense of anger and frustration has permeated the Turkish-German and other minority communities in the corner cafes, squares and on street corners where they’ve discussed the NSU murders.

Many are asking themselves: How could this have been allowed to happen in a country like Germany? And why didn’t anyone seem to care?

’I feel unsafe’

Bahir Asker, a 34-year-old Turkish construction worker, said he’s told his wife and 10-year-old son to be particularly careful while even doing basic errands like going to the store, lest they be targeted by far-right extremists.

“I feel unsafe, I don’t know what the government has been doing to protect my family or me,” said Asker, who immigrated to Germany as a teenager, outside a metro station in Germany’s multicultural Neukölln neighbourhood.

“Who knows if this could happen to them?” he asked. “And who knows if anyone will care if they are attacked?”

Nearby, Farid Azizi, a 25-year-old immigrant from Iran, told The Local that conspiracy theories had been spreading through minority communities over the last few days. Some even think German government agents committed the slayings. Others simply believe right-wing officials tried to cover them up.

“We’re angry, we’re afraid for our future here,” he said.

Story continues below…

It’s not yet clear whether the recent gestures like German President Christian Wulff’s announcement he would meet with the families of the NSU murder victims can assuage minority concerns. Particularly in parts of economically depressed eastern Germany, neo-Nazis have attempted to create “no-go zones” for foreigners.

Kolat told The Local that the whole episode had been a sobering experience and that it would take time to restore the Turkish community’s trust.

“There’s a feeling of pressure in the community, a very bad feeling,” he said.

Moises Mendoza



The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

18:05 November 17, 2011 by ND1000
Its sad but to be perfectly honest, what did they expect when they decided to move to this counntry? Germans dont exactly have the best reputation in the world when it comes to this particular subject.
18:31 November 17, 2011 by Texas_to_GE
These men were not only victims at the hand of these thugs, they are also victims of indifference! By those murders being dubbed the doner kebab murders indifference and disrespect was shown to the Turkish and Greek communities. Germans would be outraged if Germans had been killed and those murders dubbed the "currywurst murders" or something equally silly and unprofessional! These thugs gain strength by indifference but when the light comes on...bugs usually run! Germany must realize it is a country of immigrants and, if given the chance those immigrants can contribute.
18:31 November 17, 2011 by Edin

Seriously???? "What did they expect?" Are you mental?

This is one thing for which German politicians have to take responsibility, they least to say disregarded and still do the rasicm, and xenophobia (turko-phobia), they even fed the hatered in some cases. Media is even worse, with only few exceptions, watching tv or reading mags like FOKUS, one can only conclude that foreigners - Turks are the biggest problem of Germany, and Muslims in general biggest problem of the world. Sadly though, there is a bunch of readers even here who find it just as in above example.... just expectable
18:59 November 17, 2011 by Texas_to_GE
Right now here in America " immigrantphobia" is rampant! In the state of Alabama most Mexican immigrants who work the farms and harvest the crops have been forced to leave. Utilities in some cases were shut off and some grocery stores refused to sell food to the immigrants, school children are not allowed to attend school or ride school buses unless they could produce a green card or prove citizenship! The thinking was they would leave opening jobs. The result: Americans didn't take the jobs...too physical most said! Is this next for Germany and it's "Turkish problem?"
19:36 November 17, 2011 by zeddriver

What we have in America is a problem with "illegal" immigration. If a farm worker wants to go through "legal" channels to obtain a work permit to work in America. I nor most Americans don't have an issue with that. If a skilled or educated person wants to immigrate. That's fine also. What I and most Americans object to is when a person comes to America from any other country outside of legal channels. I object to illegal or even a legal immigrant who refuses to learn English and then demands that all government forms be in "their" language.
19:53 November 17, 2011 by ovalle3.14

Sure chief, it's all against those who are ilegally in the US. Because just by seeing someone, you can tell what their legal status is.
20:09 November 17, 2011 by luv4tn
It is so "nice" to see, that again this goes into the direction of "all germans are nazis". I have no personal experience, but my parents taught me well about those dark years. But german governments and the media do everything to keep this picture up and from some posts I can tell ... they succeeded.

It is horrible what has happened and I am sad for every person that gets murdered by right wing idiots. It is a shame and every german should question her- or himself, if they did enough for integrating immigrants. I don't excuse myself here, I probably could have done more ...

With the direction the "veröffentlichte Meinung" is going to ... the wish to leave Germany is growing ... I don't like to be here anymore.
20:57 November 17, 2011 by zeddriver
@ ovalle3.14

Have you not seen videos of the endless stream of people crossing the border no where near an official border crossing?

It ends up being the bad apples ruining the whole bushel. It's sad. But that's how it works.

I know this is drifting off topic. But it is related to the attitudes that these NSU folks display. I being an American. I'm disliked most everywhere I go. Why? Because my government has made some stupid decisions. So people the world over take it out on me.

I myself have never shown disrespect to other people based on where they are from. The vet that cares for my pets is from Iran. He's a nice guy and does a great job. I don't really care where he comes from.
01:36 November 18, 2011 by internationalwatch
I am a German citizen with immigrant background and I must say German police is very discriminating when it comes to cases where immigrants are involved. I personally have had two experiences where I called the cops because of suffering racism and they refused to come.

First case: I was thrown out of a bar in Cologne on Carnival occasion where the bar owner said to me and a friend of mine "a turkish student", YOU DON'T BELONG HERE. Called cops and guy on phone goes like, "owner has the right to do that we can't do anything".

Second Case:

A racist junkie woman from logistic company (IhrUmzugProfi Tieves aus Hückelhoven) passed a comment at my house at 2am at night after whole day of intolerant annoying behavior and leaving the assignment incomplete, "wir sind nicht auf ein Turkische Bazaar hier". Although I don't have turkish roots I found it to be extremely racist and asked her to leave the house with her team. On her refusal I called the cops and the guys goes on phone, "we can't do anything in this matter".

Not to forget the racist experience with a German cop himself who passed me a comment after checking the hell out of me, "Sie genießen unsere Blonde Frauen hier", darf meiner Kollege dein Schwester haben"...

I am a German citizen with foreign roots and a tax payer and I DO NOT TRUST German police at all...

They treat you according to your accent on phone and color in person.

Moral of the story, don't be surprised if German cops just assumed cause of Nazi victims' killings to be a within gang fight. It's because they are just NOT INTERESTED in solving immigrants' cases and moving their a***s because to them victims are ignorant immigrants...

02:40 November 18, 2011 by redowning
From Canada, we have a public inquiry now on police incompetence - abetting of serial murder of Aboriginal women...not immigrants, just not them (they are the immigrants). This racism by the authorities is endemic. We have to stop it. Civil society has to make them and their pay masters accountable...nobody should think that the neo-nazis arent getting backing from some big pay masters.
02:42 November 18, 2011 by Raydoggy
It's the young Turks that give Turks a bad name, walking around with their macho postures and spitting in the street, being loud in trains and not respecting the peace and order or German culture. BUT, as the Turks grow older, they tend to mellow out into very nice people, most being hard working, mosque (church) attending, family people.

When I first came to Berlln, I was really disgusted by the young Turks culture, but after meeting more responsible older Turks, I've changed my opinion about Turks somewhat. If Turks want to be accepted, they have to reel in their young ones and teach them to respect German culture, or go back to Turkey, where I presume it's normal to act like a dickhead and spit everywhere.

In private, many Germans quietly tell me that they wish they would all go back home, not because of race, but because of culture differences, They believe Turks will never harmoniously integrate. Let's see, with the next educated generation.
03:10 November 18, 2011 by ramalama
i work construction in the MUNICH area on a recent job at regina sixt's (SIXT CAR/TRUCK RENTAL corp) on her house in the GREENWALD section of munich.

i was working with several local germans 17-58 yrs old the usual bs conversations came up, ONE DAY the NAZI concentration camp was brought up.

they all denied that '#good german people'' did ANY SUCH THING. they also siad it was all'' BRITISH AMERICAN and RUSSIAN propaganda.

i told them i was in poland and went to AUSCHWITZ and saw the GAS CHAMBER and the FINGER NAIL marks on the concrete walls and saw the piles of hair and shoes form men women and CHILDREN. that i saw the interrogation rooms and the EXECUTION WALL.

on the day i was there the IDF-ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES was on tour there were about 500 uniformed military members of the IDF.

i then EXPLAINED to me work collegues that it was REAL it DID HAPPEN and that there is no use trying to say it didnt.

BTW i am an american of german descent with a very strong old germanic name but i look italian with olive skin the typical right wing german would not think i am german from my appearance and I could very easily fall victim to one of those NUTCASES if i was in the worng place at the wrong time.

for me its a matter of survival in a country that has loose terror gangs that base their targets on appearances only or on names.

the thing is the aryan tribes migrated OUT of upper europe around 8000 BC those people from IRAN IRAQ TURKEY? they are of ARYAN descent...

these IDIOTS IN GERMANY and in RUSSIA with their IGNORANT ideologys should be STAMPED OUT.
04:27 November 18, 2011 by MichaelMolenaar
It's just the never ending story isn't it.
08:57 November 18, 2011 by mos101392
@ internationalwatch I agree with you and you are correct. I am a retired American Soldier living in Germany,(since 1981), and 99% of the time when I or another American was involved, the Polizei "ALWAYS" sided with the German. I am now conditioned to not even call the Polizei and understand it is better to handle matters myself. Here is just my latest example.

My Black American coworker and his friends were downtown Shittgart one evening. He needed to use the toilet so he went into a bar and felt bad using the toilet without buying something. He then went to the bar to order a beer and the Nazi at the bar said he was racist and would not serve him. They ofcourse called the police and when they arrived at the scene one of the cops made the following ignorant comment, "AS LONG AS HE DIDN'T CALL YOU THE "N" WORD, THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO" Even the cop's partner looked at him stupid for making such a comment. So, again they sided on the German even after he stated he was a racist.. Here is another example,

My German ex wife had a friend who was married to a Kriminal Polizei. We had dinner one weekend and I asked him a question. Is it my imagination that the German police set up speed traps near American installations to target Americans? He said it is not by chance-he said they specifically target Americans. This was in Kaiserslautern.
09:11 November 18, 2011 by storymann
"Germany¦#39;s seeming indifference to the crimes ­ has shaken the country¦#39;s minority communities."

This is disingenuous and leads one to believe that the powers to be are turning their heads. I do not believe this is the case.

It would be easier to conclude that the persons responsible for internal security are lacking in skills, money or man power. This type of organization should have been known to the authorities much sooner and watched by the Bundesnachrichtendienst or the Verfassungsschutz or both. Hopefully this in not incompetence. In either case it may be time for some in house changes at top levels.
09:44 November 18, 2011 by nolibs
@Texas_to_GE - No one is afraid of immigrants, just sick of them breaking or immigration laws. Pay the people enough (supply and demand) and the farmers will find people to harvest the crops. The free ride is over. By the way, the Germans are quite strict about enforcing immigration laws. They ofter raid construction sites to check papers. It is about time that the USA starts taking this seriously too.

@internationalwatch - The business owner does have a right to refuse service. Right or wrong, the police saying that they can't do anything is not racist.

@ramalama - I'll have to take your word for it because we are not allowed to challenge anything about the holocaust without being labeled or censored. Oddly enough, it looks like TheLocal removed all comments concerning the comments made by a Berlin radio host. http://www.thelocal.de/article.php?ID=38917

@mos101392 - As far as I know, refusing service isn't against the law. I'm not sure that calling him a ni_ger would be against the law in Germany either, since that is an English word.

Also, did your friend say why they targeted Americans? I wonder if it's because they think Americans speed more often, or are less apt to fight the ticket?
09:57 November 18, 2011 by soofire
Germany's attitude towards anyone foreign has never really changed since the NSDAP took power in 1933. There was a sentiment then that made it possible for Hitler to take power and that has not really changed but has been hidden user a smoke screen for many years.

Germans are in general a very territorial race hence the dislike of anything foreign that wants to share their territory. I truly believe that the Germans have not understood why the Nazis were wrong (not only because of the assassination of millions of Jews ) but more the whole thought process (every one is inferior if they are not one of of us).

This is not a rant but i must say i feel rather sad writing this. I grew up in Germany and am of Jamaican decent. my time in Germany was a living nightmare because as much as i so wanted to be part (integrate ) i was constantly reminded that in their eyes i was the enemy (auslaender).

I left Germany as so as i was old enough to do so. The ignorance and hatred for anyone foreign is astonishing and so deep rooted.

There are some young Germans who are trying to change this but I fear that they are facing a uphill struggle.

This is just the beginning....
10:41 November 18, 2011 by HelloOutThere
Welcome to the "all or almost all Germans are Nazis and racists" discussion which so often has taken place on thelocal.de

Unfortunately there have been made mistakes on all sides in the past. I hope that these mistakes will not be made in the future anymore and that people will finally get together and learn from each other.

But as I already mentioned in another article racism is not "endemic" to a certain country, but unfortunately it is part of the human nature - it is the fear of the unknown and the best way to get over it is by getting to know each other, for instance by bringing forward exchange programs where people from all over the world can meet each other. This is the best way to overcome prejudices.
11:00 November 18, 2011 by danceswithgoats
From Spiegel Online - "According to a 2010 study by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, a think tank with ties to Germany's center-left Social Democrats (SPD), more than a third of Germans believe that the country is in "serious danger of being overrun by foreigners." A similar number also believes that, when the labor market gets tight, "foreigners should be sent back to their home countries," and that they many immigrants only came to Germany "to take advantage of the social welfare system." - I doubt any of this third would advocate murder of foreigners.

Germany is a country of 80 million people. Four of them were homocidal maniacs with some sort of distorted plan. I am an "Auslander" that has lived here for 14 years and never had a problem. I am sure any other immigrants are free to leave if it is so terrible.
11:45 November 18, 2011 by Baboom
Well its really appalling to read a couple of comments that generalize or negatively stereotype Germany. Well I aint no German but coming from India I definitely do feel any time safer here and I do believe if you compare the rate at which racism occurs in countries like Australia, the Great britain, USA, germany is no match and a much safer and better place for foreigners. Just coz it had a bad past I think its just unfair to stigmatize Germans or Germany. Being a foreigner my self I would prefer living in Germany rather than any other country and the people specially the Germans have been super cool and awesome. Well aint denying what happened in their past was really bad but do you think countries Like great Britain was any less with their colonies even they did mass massacres in most of their colonies and im sure the same is with the states in the name of protecting world safety and protecting their own selfish dominance over the world have indulged in many a wars that could be averted the only difference were that all of them were either unnoticed or not exaggerated and just coz what happened to germany was in their own country they have been for ever in the spot light. Well I guess people just gotta change their attitude first and get over the attitude of stereotyping and stigmatizing. Yes the things that happened with the neo Nazi's killing the minorities definitely aint good and need extreme care and measures, but dont you think something similar is happening in the middle east asia where the minority of people just belong to other type? Besides Germany is one of the forieers of the euro zone trying to keep it united and helping the countries in Debts so come on guys cut a slack to this amazing country and make it feel that it deserves more appreciation and stop targetting it. Me being a foreigner in germany am proud to say that this country has been no less than a second home to me. All in all screw racism just be a real good human and respect human life no matter what cast, creed. race, sex or sect they belong to....
12:19 November 18, 2011 by adept
"the thing is the aryan tribes migrated OUT of upper europe around 8000 BC those people from IRAN IRAQ TURKEY? they are of ARYAN descent..."

Iran, iraq - yes.

Turks - no.

Turks are not Indo-Europeans.

They are riders from central asian steppe (think gengis khan) and only recently concquered the territory of todays turkey, about 700 years ago. Turks are not in the lineage of Indo-Europeans, they are asians.
12:58 November 18, 2011 by siba
I cannot take this discussion seriously here. I am foreigner in Germany and I appreciate this country very much as a tolerant and free country. Germany is not a bad, xenophic country. On the other hand, Germany has developed a quite immigrant-friendly culture while in most western countries xenophobia has been growing for the last 10 years. Germany is one of the few European countries without any right wing populist political party and it is not dominated by xenophic discourses (like in the Netherlands,Switzerland, Austria, Italy, France..).
15:25 November 18, 2011 by ND1000
@Edin, Sorry mate, I think you read me wrong because I didnt write it properly. I think its horrible. I completely sympothize with these folks. I know plenty of people who find Germany a very uninviting place and some of them are just passing through on the autobahn. They get treated rudely at the petrol station when all they want to do is fuel up and get to the border. Ive lived in 5 different countries, this one easily is the most xenophobic with the U.S. most inviting. Haters, say what you want about Yanks but they are better than most when it comes to good treatment of outsiders. Eastern Europeans are pretty cool as well. Im half German and debate all time about leaving. Unfortunately the nice folks in Germany get their voices stifled quickly.
15:40 November 18, 2011 by internationalwatch



15:43 November 18, 2011 by nolibs
@siba - Of course you can't because this country is tolerant and not at all an uninviting place despite what some say...and what a few crazies are out doing. There is an agenda here to make a victim class out of all non-white immigrants, with everyday Germans as the villains, just like in the USA. Just watch, slowly but surely German customs and traditions will be eroded because a person or group is "offended" by its name or what it stands for.

@ND1000 - Germans aren't rude, they just aren't fake like Americans. If they invite you over, it is a genuine invitation, not just filler material for a skin-deep conversation. Sure, there are plenty of grumpy Germans, but it's not personal and it's not because you are a foreigner.
17:06 November 18, 2011 by HelloOutThere
As a German I can only invite the people who read the comments above (and in the near future perhaps below) to come here to Germany in order to get their own impressions instead of only building their opinion on what some people may have experienced. I'm sorry that there are some commentators who may have had bad experiences, but generalizing is always a bad habit.
17:22 November 18, 2011 by danceswithgoats
Germany is a xenophobic, racist, anti-immigrant society compared to who? Countries in the East (give me a break)? Turkey (are you serious)? France (suburbs on fire)? Switzerland (no minarets)? The US?
17:55 November 18, 2011 by ND1000
@nolibs, Im not a foreigner, Im German you d-bag. I went to university in America though for a degree in physics and have to say you really have no real clue what many Germans are like from the sound of things. Do you have actual German friends or speak German? I think Americans are far more genuine than most Europeans and would not mind living there again if I could get a visa. With all that said there naturally are many nice Germans but most dont want outsiders here and that includes you. Sorry.
18:13 November 18, 2011 by Englishted

Were is this utopia you are heading to called ?.
18:18 November 18, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ ND1000: As you can take from my comment above I'm also German, but I completely disagree with your descripton of Germany and the Germans. I went to France as an exchange student and in a different article related to this topic I've already described what I have experienced in France, but nevertheless I would never say that all French are racists, because this simply isn''t true - you may know some people who think of Germany as an uninviting place and they may have good reasons, because they may actually have had bad experiences. On the other side I personally know many people with foreign roots and have friends with foreign roots who told me that they are glad to be here and that they actually feel as Germans and a part of German society. Germany is not perfect at all, that's completely true, but in my opinion there is no state which is perfect. Unfortunately there are some Germans who would like to reestablish a Third Reich, but this is an extremely small minority, not a majority. However we have to keep on fighting such ideas with educating people and getting the world together, for instance via exchange programs so that prejudices can be overcome.
18:50 November 18, 2011 by thebreester
Lol @ the comments in this thread. First off, is anyone actually surprised that a bunch of foreigners got murdered and Germans dont give a sh*t? Second, all of you crying about how you have no problems if people immigrate legally into the states through the "proper channels" need to actually see how much it costs and how much of a paperwork clusterf*ck it takes to get a visa and/or green card in the USA. Nice to know xenophobia isnt limited to one continent. gj world, gj.
21:12 November 18, 2011 by JAMessersmith
Granted, I understand that Germany has changed since the 1930s, so try not to take this the wrong way, but the following line from the above article was truly a head-scratcher for me:

"Many are asking themselves: How could this have been allowed to happen in a country like Germany? And why didn¦#39;t anyone seem to care?"

Really? Are people really asking THAT question? Open up a history book sometime. That's how.

But again, don't take it the wrong way. We Americans kept African slaves, and exterminated the Native Americans, so historical baggage isn't limited to Germany by any means. Just saying... There's a rather obvious answer to that question.
22:25 November 18, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ JAMessersmith:

Then this is the reason why some US-Americans did not want to vote for Obama just because he is black. US-American history reminds me of Ku Klux Klan and racial segregation until the 1960s.
23:27 November 18, 2011 by siba
Internationawatch: Sorry, you are pathetic. Read some more valuable press than the local (sorry but I find the local not a good source for german news) and get a more objective picture of germany. Germany is a great country - a strong social welfare state and tolerant with minorities no matter if immigrants, gays... If Eastern or Western Europe or the US... you will find more xenophobia there than in germany. Only because of the history of the WW II Germany is almost the only country left where no right wing populist party dominates the public discourse.
02:33 November 19, 2011 by Lager_man
Fascism/racism is a serious threat in many parts of the world. I am from Turkey. We have a problem with fascists here too (the fascists here have nationalist and/or Islamist ideological roots). Let me first say that there is only a thin line between nationalism and fascism. I am an anti-fascist and and an anti-nationalist. Nationalism is sadly strong in Turkey. Often, I get insults from Turkish nationalists when I write out against the dangers of nationalism. Of course, I also get insults from non-Turkish nationalists in various international forums too. Being an anti-nationalist is not easy :)

Anti-nationalists of the world should agree on certain principles and unite againsts all nationalists. There should be several strong anti-nationalist organisations at a worldwide level.

Germany has a nationalism problem too of course. However, many sources say the problem is far worse in Russia. Putin, as you know, is a dominant leader but unfortunately, he has failed to clamp down effectively on the racism problem there. If you do some search online, you will see disturbing news and even videos (violent ones) of Neonazi violence in Russia.

Enough is enough, I think. Nationalism should NOT be seen as an 'innocent' ideology.
02:44 November 19, 2011 by soros
Racism isn't unique to Germany and most of you readers would agree. But Germany is sensitive to the issue perhaps more than most places. I think it's incumbent on people like the Turks, whether they live in Europe or in Turkey, to face their own history of xenophobia and racism. They need to acknowledge that they murdered a million Armenians at the beginning of the 20th Century. It's not just the ordinary German who allowed fascism to commit crimes.

As for what's going on with these murders. When a country is transformed in a radical way as all of Europe has been, without the permission of the ordinary citizen, why does it come as a surprise that some extremist factions go on the rampage? We had the Red terrorists, the RAF, before this. In Turkey you have the Grey Wolves... And in Russia you have neo-fascists. All of these are in reaction to a lack of democratic participation. Unfortunately, we are in for another round of violence.
03:03 November 19, 2011 by wenddiver
OK, OK, enough already. We found a couple of homicidal nut jobs running around killing people. You can't paint an entire group of peoplea s racists, because of a few clowns. Every country in the World including Israel has NAZIS. Some of the people who denounce racism the loudest go to their own sites and make the most racist comments immainable.

I'm betting if we checked the web in Iran or Turkey we would find out that a lot of those same people wouldn't be real crazy about a large number of German Christains or Jews setting up in a neighborhood in their city.

You can look on Slavorum on the web and get a pretty good example. Bosnians who are mad about being called Turks, but who after calling themselves Europeans instantly launch into attacks on the West, America, Germany and all northern Slavs. You can also find Polish and Ukrainian people who think of themselves as Nazis and yes Bosnians and Turks who think of themselves as Nazi supporters. I personally think they are all as clueless as German Nazis.

Stupid is a universal condition, every group has haters, but German Police not solving a case is not necessarily racism, nor are American Citizens loing patience with Mexican Groups like La Raza (The Race) making demands after committing violent crimes, ignoring immigration laws, not paying taxes yet claiming benefits, forming large criminal gangs and refusing to obey the laws all others must.

People not wanting you to behave badly in their country is not racism, and no roup is free of racism. The truth of the matter other than the Soldiers everybody else chooses to go to a fireign country.

Germany is fine and a couple isolated incidents don't change that.
03:03 November 19, 2011 by ms915
Would the German media even care if these were Russian-Germans?
04:35 November 19, 2011 by vonSchwerin
"have left millions of people with immigrant heritage wondering just how safe they are and if average Germans even care."

I wonder if German indifference is simply a fact regardless of a victim's race. How many times have we read, even on The Local, stories about people attacked in German buses and subways while no one helped? It's not for nothing that German train stations have signs imploring people to show Civil Courage.
09:37 November 19, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ ms915: Yes, they would care as they have cared about the Turkish and Greek people.

@ vonSchwerin: Where do you live? I've travelled through Germany quite a few times and yes I have seen these signs sometimes, but not that often. It's not indifference - the people are simply afraid of getting involved into a violent situation, so many rather call the police. But I think this a problem around the world. Have you recently heard of the little girl in China who was overrun and the people only went by?

I hope that the new centre against right-wing extremism which will be founded in the near future - probably in Meckenheim, North-Rhine-Westphalia - will become effective in repelling and clarifying such awful crimes. No matter whether they are commited by Germans, Russian-Germans, Polish-Germans and so on.

People like "internationalwatch" claim others to be racist, but the are actually racists themselves - and yes, in my opinion to call all Germans Nazis and say that they are inherently bad is racism. Just like it is racism to say all US-Americans hate black people and Latinos or that all muslims want Christians, Jews, and the beliefers of other religions to die. But I guess many people just need a concept of an enemy. In the Third Reich and even today in some regions in Eastern Europe it were respectively are the Jewish people. For the US Americans it were the communists and especially the Soviets. Today the new conception of enemy to the entire western world are muslims. Will this stop one day?
10:14 November 19, 2011 by Paf1967
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
10:42 November 19, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ Paf1967: I don't think that German youth becomes misgruntled, maybe a small part, but not all. And I also don't think that the government or anyone else can repress" true cultural pride" as you call it, for the cultural, scientific and sportive richness of Germany is simply too deep. The German people have produced great personalities on all fields: Music, art, philosophy, literature, theology, natural sciences, film (i.e. directors like F.W. Murnau, Roland Emmerich, Wolfgang Peterson, Werner Herzog and actors like Klaus Kinski), sports and so on. But the question is how can I as a German be proud of Ludwig van Beethoven writing the 9th Symphony, for he wrote it - not me - you know what I mean?
13:26 November 19, 2011 by nolibs
@ND1000 - #28 - You must be one of those grumpy Germans I was referring too. Most are good people, and I stand by that.

@HelloOutThere #40 - I'm not sure that people need a concept of an enemy, rather the groups cause the problems themselves. People don't usually pick enemies out of thin air. Islamic terrorist bombings, especially the WTC attack, is why people distrust muslims. Likewise, back in 1933, a boycott on German goods by Jews (Judea Declares War on Germany!" - Daily Express, March 24, 1933) put them in the spotlight with the German people and may have been part of the catalyst for what was to come.

Of course, none of that is an excuse to cause harm to anyone. Violence and extremism must be quashed on the left and the right.

Personally, I think the whole racism label has been over-used and people are growing tired of it. Kind of like crying wolf. Eventually it loses it's effectiveness and when a real case pops up, no one believes it or cares.
13:55 November 19, 2011 by trevzns
@ HelloOutThere

Not sure classifying racism as a normal part of human nature is correct? Human beings are not born racially prejudice. Racial prejudice as we know it today is a learned behavior and has many environmental contributing factors.

Exchange programs has it benefits and should be encouraged whenever possible. At the roots of racial prejudice as you mentioned, is fear of the unknown. Not all societies have serious issues with racism such as, the U.S., Europe and some countries in the Caribbean, Mexico and Latin America.

Educating and exposing children as early kindergarten to understand and respect cultural, ethnic, religious, non-religious differences would be more effective and beneficial.

The challenges of changing centuries of racial prejudices will not be simple. There are societies and individuals that are comfortable and benefit from the ignorance and insecurities they knowing or unknowing perpetuate.
14:35 November 19, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ trevzns: Perhaps I should have been more precise - the fear of the unknown is a natural part of human nature. As racism has its roots in the fear of the unknown, racism is the direct result of this human attribute. Of course racism has to be "activated" by environmental factores - I do completely agree.
15:32 November 19, 2011 by septiSeverus

What do mean by whole racism label and has been over-used?

Which parts of the insidious virus of racial prejudice have been appropriately used or have been beneficial to our civilization?

Eventually it would be better when the indifference and complaisant attitudes about racism loses its effectiveness.

The attack on the WTC was done by a group of religious extremists of the Islamic religion. Why some people distrust Muslims? A great deal of the distrust has to do with fear mongering and ignorance of the Qur¦#39;an and the prophet Muhammad teachings.

Do I believe Islam is a religion of peace? My answer is, Yes and No.
17:12 November 19, 2011 by Lager_man
I am from Turkey and many people just assume I am Muslim and sometimes I get bad treatment outside Turkey due to this. I am not even Muslim. People are not born with a religion ; many people are yet to understand this. Since I was a child, till now (and possibly till I die), I have never felt any interest in Islam (or any other religion).

Two things annoy me : firstly, some people's assuming that I am Muslim. These fascists just cannot accept that a Turk can be atheist or agnostic. They like to put all Turks under one category so that they can 'comfortably hate them' ; if you know what I mean !

Secondly, people's stereotyping Muslims and hating or saying bad things about them. I have many Muslim friends and none of them sympathises with Islamist extremists ; in fact, all of them hate such fundamentalists. But of course, there is a problem (a big problem indeed) with Islamist groups. But these groups represent a tiny minority of Muslims.

Islamist (and other religious) fundemantalists and European (and other) nationalists have one thing in common : hatred/bigotry !
18:51 November 19, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ adept #21

Not only are Turks a part of the Indo European languages group. Turks are also part of European culture. As for the Aryan or Caucasian races? Those are both the concepts and inventions by Western Europeans and a Scandinavian.

There is one human race and several different cultures with many cultural heritages. Regardless what the American and European standards are for classifying and reclassifying human beings.
19:07 November 19, 2011 by internationalwatch
The most shocking thing is that leader of the gang was a woman working for German internal intelligence, Bundesverfassungsschutz. Surprisingly not many German news channels are unveiling this somehow...

My TRILLION $ QUESTION to all those who are trying to support this barbaric act by barking against the immigrants (who pay taxes in this country and hold German citizenships) on this thread.

What kinda protection can a TAX PAYER expect from a government that is ALREADY DEEPLY BUGGED WITH NAZIS??????

I tell you folks these Nazis are BIG waste of my TAX MONEY!!!!
00:50 November 20, 2011 by siba
internationalwatch... Germany certainly has one of the best governments in the world where every citizen (of course including all immigrants) has all rights and chances to lead a decent life with a good quality of life. of course also germany is not free of crimes and this case of murderers is just one case of a few criminals doing awful crimes...

germany is flourishing, has one of the most successful economies in the world, has become quite tolerant and is one of the most favorite countries for immigrants. ... and, against all those who just have old prejudices, germany is - regarding a recent bbc-poll, the most popular country in the world:

08:09 November 20, 2011 by Englishted
@ internationalwatch

Haven't you gone yet?
10:42 November 20, 2011 by heyheyhey

Always a smartass, aren't you?

Perhaps you could do us all favor?????

12:00 November 20, 2011 by internationalwatch
@siba: Everything that you just wrote up there appears shiny only in words & in typical German heads but reality is very different. Remember your beloved government tried importing Indian computer geeks but they refused to cum here and went to UK, US or Canada. Coincidentally CDU teh shittiest party of this country after NPD started a campaign at the same time, "Kinder Statt Inder". Now you don't tell me that everybody wants to come here. If people have no other options they come here and THAT'S THE TRUTH MY FRIEND...

@englishted: I'm still debating it, may be I'll cum to your house tonite cuz I know someone there for a really long time who pleases me and I mean NOT you! Besides I am born to please the blonde ladies as the cop said and it's my damn German right!

@hahaha; Gud one triple ha I like that...
14:03 November 20, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ internationalwatch: Do you really think that they did not want to come here because they thought all Germans are right-wing fascists while all US-Americans, British and Canadians are embracing them and there has never been any racism in their countries? There were other reasons.

"If people have no other options they come here and THAT'S THE TRUTH MY FRIEND..."

Well, as far as I am concerned I know many people from Poland who had the choice between the United Kingdom on one side and Germany on the other side. Some went to the United Kingdom, some went to Germany and the ones who came to Germany would have had the chance to go to the United Kingdom.

You can keep on telling others your opinion about Germany, but that won't change Germany as it is with all its bad and good aspects.
16:13 November 20, 2011 by internationalwatch
@HelloOutThere: You probably haven't been out of your Dorf lately. Go to UK and see by yourself, Polish poured into UK short after they were okayed into EU. You forgot to mention that it took Germany a loooooooooooooong time to give Polish all the EU citizens rights e.g. automatic right to work etc. Whereas UK from beginning on give them all the rights. Now why would someone wanna learn the most difficult, rough and ugly sounding language of the world whereas there are places welcoming you and offer more flexibility and home feeling to outsiders. I did all this, I'm a German citizen with foreign roots and I regret to say that I never felt welcomed here because of my color and accent in Germany. So there's nothing much I can be proud of with this citizenship... Turks probably are stuck here cuz they either don't know other languages or don't dare to change something for themselves. For other folks who are multilingual and are aware of the best out there take Germania only as a transit place to suffer right extremism.
16:58 November 20, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ internationalwatch: One of the anwsers can be found in your own comment - compared to the English language the German language is actually very hard to learn. Nevertheless there are still people who want to learn it and come to Germany in order to live and work here. The rest of your description of the German language is highly subjective. But yes, I've been out of my "Dorf" recently whereas you seem to be stuck in your own mental village yet. Have a nice day!
17:59 November 20, 2011 by nolibs
@internationalwatch - You said it right, the Polish "poured" into the UK. That was exactly what Germany wanted to avoid; a huge influx of cheap labor overnight.

Since you are a German citizen, that makes you an EU citzen...ergo you can leave at anytime to someplace that you are more welcome. What's keeping you here?
18:22 November 20, 2011 by internationalwatch
@nolibs: your blond women!!!!
18:38 November 20, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ internationalwatch: I'm afraid that intelligent and educated blond German women would rather take an obstinate donkey than you...
19:09 November 20, 2011 by internationalwatch
@HelloOutThere; There you go you proved once again how xenophobic and racist you are. You can't speak on your blond women's behalf since they don't tell you what they REALLY like. Besides intelligence is not what is required in bed. You can either comfort a woman or tell her how sophisticated or intelligent you are like you blond guys mostly are busy showing off! lol

N if you wanna compete my intelligence learn to talk real and rational! I am not another "Gast Arbeiter" of yours who you can humiliate, kill or stamp as stupid whenever you want, you dumbo!


In your eyes an optimal immigrant would be the one who just ignores all the crap happening around him or to him, be passive and obeys, right? Well what's what I call NOT INTELLIGENT!
19:30 November 20, 2011 by HelloOutThere
Firstly: I knew that you would call me xenophobic and racist and this just tells us how fanatic you are. I referred to you as a person, not as a non-German. If I were xenophobic and racist my best friend would not be Iranian...

Secondly: I'm not blond.

Thirdly: Neither myself nor my relatives are umeployed, but have well paid jobs in leading positions.

Fourthly: It's actually quite paradox that you tell me to talk real and rational regarding the comments you have made not only with respect to this article, but with respect to other articles throughout the last couple of months.

I have never humiliated or killed anyone and I never will.

Nobody should ignore bad things happening around him - it's a good thing that now after these awful murders have taken place discussions are held throughout the country so that we can see what went wrong and hopefully find solutions to these problems. I hope that these idiotic murderers will receive their deserved punishment!

But still the problem with you is that you say all Germans or almost all Germans are Nazis and racists and at the same time claim me to be not able to compete with your intellignece - quite paradox, isn't it?
21:17 November 20, 2011 by internationalwatch
@HelloOutThere: Don't insult my intelligence by misinterpreting my comments. If you scroll up and read I said it over and over again that I'm a German citizen myself so if I say all Germans are racists that would also include myself. You are really dumb man!

Read, read and reread until you understand some English! Btw if you wanna compete my intelligence you also need to speak 7-languages fluently.

This is typical with folks like you, you turn up all of a sudden with reference of having an immigrant friend if your racist comments are noticed & condemned. I remember the cop saying the same thing "my daughter has an Iraqi fiance" after I complained against him for passing a sarcastic comment to me and after I brought him in front of his boss. But of course nobody can think this way that perhaps that IS y he got problem with immigrants!!!!

People say it's possible to survive in this country with immigrant background by knowing your rights and speaking the language. I say it's still not possible folks, not even with a German passport because you will be busy wasting half of your lifetime noticing the racist behaviors, complaining against them and hoping that one damn day this country might also get normal. But hey who cares and who has the time to play Nelsen Mendela in Germany in this short one time life!
16:47 November 21, 2011 by HelloOutThere
@ internationalwatch: You actually said that you are a German citizen with "foreign roots" respectively "immigrant background". (post #9) Nevertheless there is still the possibility that you distinguish between German citizens with an "immigrant background" and German citizens without an "immigrant background". So what's wrong with saying that there might be people who have a German passport and foreign roots and are therefore German citizens with an immigrant background, but still say that all or almost all Germans WITHOUT an immigrant background are Nazis and Racists. Of course it would have been different if you had said that you are half German, for instance - then my comment would have been quite contradictory or "dumb" as you used to say, but from your commentary above this hint could not be taken.

Moreover beside talking about the German government "DEEPLY BUGGED WITH NAZIS (post #49) you also stated in post #24 "I HEREBY ABANDON THIS RACIST COUNTRY!" respectively "TO HELL WITH THIS HITLER MENTALITY AND IT'S DEEP INFLUENCE ON THIS SOCIETY THAT HAS BEEN PASSED GENERATIONS AFTER GENERATION BECAUSE PARENT ARE THE BEST TEACHERS AFTER ALL!!!!" What else should someone think by reading these specific comments? You also stated in post #9 that a police officer asked you "Sie genießen unsere Blonde Frauen hier", darf meiner Kollege dein Schwester haben" - to be honest I don't think that he asked you like that, at least not when he was capable of speaking decent German. Well, you don't have to believe me that my best friend is Iranian and to be honest I don't care whether you believe me or not, because I by myself know the truth. You said that you are a tax payer (post#60), so I can suppose you are still in Germany.

I know that the question has been asked before, but if you don't like it here why don't you take your opporunity to go to another country? Is it really because of our "blond women"? Since the people can now freely choose where they want to work in the European Union and you are able to speak seven languages fluently there must be at least one country where you can go to which is not as racist as Germany at all.
16:58 November 22, 2011 by White Rita
Africa is for Africans

Asia is for Asians

Mexico is for Mexicans but European countries like Germany are for everyone???

So "Neo-Nazis" have killed an average of .13 persons per year for the last 20 years? That's less than a quarter of a person PER YEAR. How many White Germans have immigrants killed in the last 20 years? Are White Germans less valuable than Turks? I think not.
18:53 November 22, 2011 by lookagain
@ Those who made the comments personal: way to go, you guys definitely know how to debate....

This is the point in my opinion: No Nation likes immigrants per se , but some time governments allow it for reasons.

"Human rights", "we are all equal" and subjects like that all goes in the drain why? people who should force the law or obey it are not rational and perfect no we are not; the majority do not think as systematic and rational as the intellectual minority thats why government and leaders exist. so at the end make a choice do you want to live here or not. its easy if you can go somewhere better dont hesitate a blink.

and please dont generalize things doing so pollutes the societies. who in his right mind would say all turks are this or all Germans are that.AND no Germans prefer to live among themselves thats understandable but if you have a problem if I have a problem then lets take our expertise and wealth somewhere else.

endless opportunities.... :)
14:20 November 23, 2011 by LecteurX
Hello White Rita. Who are you? Where do you get your propaganda from? According to how you define the notion of "neo-nazi hate crime", the number of such murders in Germany ranges from 47 to 182 in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 only. Which means from 2.5 to 6 persons PER YEAR. See here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Todesopfern_rechtsextremer_Gewalt_in_Deutschland

Where did you find your statistics of 0.13 victim per year please? Care to substantiate? That would mean something like 3 murders over 20 years, which is much less than the 10 lives claimed by this particular group alone, and there were quite a few others at work, which burnt down houses where families lived, killed young girls, babies, pregnant women. And why the quotation marks for "neo-nazi"? Is it too distateful for you? Well, this organisation called itself "National-Socialist Underground", so you don't need such precautions, you know.

And finally, it is up to the German Authorities to determine whether Germany is "for everyone" or not. It is certainly not up to racist s c u m like you who dare to distort FACTS, unashamedly spread such outrageous lies and approve of the murder of brown people. The simple fact that you say "less valuable than Turks" tells a lot about your leanings.

Go read some books go back to your nazi internet forums.
16:24 November 23, 2011 by Lager_man
Well written, LecteurX ! The people like White Rita are full of hatred and discrimination. In Turkey, we also have such people . They say things like 'Turkey is for Turks' etc. and discriminate against Kurds and Armenians.

We anti-fascists, wherever we are in the world, should unite against such bigots. This world should be for all of us to share and live happily together.
23:38 November 24, 2011 by showtyd75
well.l had a terrible experience here in Germany from foreign office,rathaus and doctor so l believe that many here are racist especially to the foreigners.l equally met the good ones.the ratio is much much higher(believe me)
10:09 November 29, 2011 by koli
To each its own... you feel unsecure? pack and go back to where you came from, simple and over with! If I dont like a counbtry where I am not sure I am liked, I pack and leave. Done and lived so I have now my family and myself in a place wher I am if not loved, at least happy and feel secure! Cry baby and cry baby, those who cry about issues like this are those who want ot rule the country they moved to. Germans are Germans and love to be able to ruoe the EU under their flag so what do you expect? Yes WE ALL KINOW THEY ALL HAVE THE ... YOU KNOW WHO, LOVE DEEP INSIDE THEM AND JUST LOVE TO BE THE ONLY ONES IN THE WORLD! Butif you dont feel secure in Germany, simply get on your Turkis Airliner and have a safe trip!
14:32 December 14, 2011 by GeorgiosK
Quick question: I'm a Greek and considering taking a job in Germany (Munich). I am talking about skilled work (IT) and not construction work or anything. To any german people or foreigners living there already, do you think there's fear/problem of racism?
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