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Parents believe their ethnically Turkish children disadvantaged

The Local · 10 Oct 2011, 13:43

Published: 10 Oct 2011 13:43 GMT+02:00

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The survey of 1,256 parents of children between 3 and 18 years old by the Allenbach Institute and commissioned by the Vodafone Foundation found 59 percent believed their kids were not given the same opportunities as ethnically German children. A full 63 percent said they believed teachers had pre-existing prejudices against children from minority backgrounds, the magazine reported.

A slight majority (51 percent) also felt that their children were unfairly graded by teachers, even if they were achieving as highly as their ethnically German peers. A majority also felt language barriers were a major reason for what they felt was their children’s unfair treatment.

Previous research has shown that children from immigrant backgrounds fare poorly in Germany’s school system compared to their ethnically German peers, although there has been disagreement over the reasons. Suggested reasons range from low expectations among teachers to poor German language ability among some minority young people.

A 2009 article in the American University Law Review reported that between two thirds and three quarters of children of Turkish origin were assigned to the lowest of Germany's secondary schools – the Hauptschule – compared to just one third of ethnically German children.

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Your comments about this article

15:15 October 10, 2011 by Englishted
it would help if they were sent to school with a good grasp of German ,if you look at the money being spent per child I think you will find that more is spent teaching them the basics than on German children.

The language barrier is the main reason as the majority know ,but rather than saying it is unfair do something about it yourselves.
15:32 October 10, 2011 by raandy
I suppose they would prefer that the German,s build a school just for the Turkish people where they instruct in Turkish. They could hold an election and see what the electorate thinks.
16:21 October 10, 2011 by tueken
Immigrant face same problem everywhere, the children of immigrant have to work extra hard to be equal to the locals, and extra tough to stand through the humiliation in any situation, if you choose to stay in a foreign country.
16:44 October 10, 2011 by mhdamro
Here we go again ........!!!!!!! just when i thought that they stopped talking about immigration and foreigners in Germany to focus on the euro crisis .......i guess immigration topics in the German media is like marijuana ... it makes people feel good for the wrong reasons .....!!!!! (i.e: German people)
17:02 October 10, 2011 by maxbrando
I think certainly that Turkish parents need to return to Turkey where their children will not feel disadvantaged in school, and instead feel superior because they received a partial, if unsatisfying, education in Germany.

Germans have a right to feel good about themselves and their country. If turks do not feel the same, they should return to Turkey.
18:27 October 10, 2011 by nolibs
@maxbrando: Good Point

Oh crap, they are "minorities" now. Special treatment, quotas and the like are due now...just wait.

When we went shopping for a school, we avoided those where the dominant language was Turkish in the school. The sheer fact that we were able to determine that should tell you why exactly these kids are failing. (Hint, it was in the article....still stumped? Ok, "language barriers " and "poor German language ability among some minority young people"

Time to send the guest workers home.
19:04 October 10, 2011 by Bavaria Mike
If you are having problems integrating into Germany, then please go back to your home country where I'm sure life will be better for you! Adapt or get out, you have nothing to whine about!
19:32 October 10, 2011 by The-ex-pat
As the husband of, I see on a very, very regular basis, my wife's struggles with Turkish families. The girls are not allowed to do anything and the boys are expected to be treated like kings. On a whole, Turkish parents never come to parent teacher meetings, never reply to Elternbriefe, never partake in school activities or bring their children to any after school programs. They are the very last to send in the Klassenkasse. Their children are always deficient in pens, pencils, and other school supplies that are required. School trip money, my wife will have more luck getting Weihnachtgeld erhöhung. Any complaint or criticism of their child/children in school is taken as a personal attack against the family, but mostly a personal attack against the father. For them to complain, they need to get into school in the first place and have an idea of what is going on.
20:36 October 10, 2011 by GolfAlphaYankee
what a bunch of xenophobic and racist crowd !

1- no body is going back ... those kids are Germans by birth. This is there home the sooner you realize it the better.

2- it is not only (there) problem :it is also your problem.... it is the German society problem !

it is not in the interest of the German society to condemn 3/4 of any minority to low education and low income ...... this situation foster envy and resentment.
21:06 October 10, 2011 by Englishted

My comment was not xenophobic or racist.

If the children are German by birth how many generations are there before they take German passports and speak German as their first language, like my child who was born here.
21:08 October 10, 2011 by nolibs
@Homer sexual (GolfAlphaYankee)

A. Nothing to do with xenophobia or racism. Those are labels Americans use to quash dissent and vilify those with an opposing opinion.. Rather it has to do with first-hand observations from life.

1 - Unlike the USA, being born here doesn't make you German automatically (Thankfully). If they are really "German" they need to start acting that way...learn the language, etc.

2. True, it is our problem. Sending those, who will not integrate, home is an answer.

3. No one is condemning them or any other minority, the "minorities" are doing that all on their own. See Post #8 for a perfect example.
21:29 October 10, 2011 by c12dat
@G.A.Y. guy or gal

Holy cow my son is a German. Where do I apply for the kindergeld?

Want to live in a different country ... better learn their language, customs and laws ... and follow them. If not, then pack up and return to your homeland.
21:36 October 10, 2011 by puisoh
@ GolfAlphaYankee, presumably English-native speaking ..

it is 'their' not 'there' .. you see the problem??

why is there no report about other immigrant group .. Asians, South Americans, Africans??

Being educated is not a priority in the Muslim culture, serving 'God' is.
21:46 October 10, 2011 by GolfAlphaYankee
@puisoh : I guess I got caught again by the head of the grammar police.... sorry officer ! I am not a native speaker :-)))))
01:54 October 11, 2011 by florian royack
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
06:46 October 11, 2011 by rfwilson
With regard to Post #8, a good friend of ours taught Sprachhilfe (German language taught to young kids who are not fluent in German) in Esslingen. She taught it for over 20 years. All of her students were young kids of Turkish or other Arab background.

Like others above, she found the young girls to be meek and well behaved, and the young boys to be disruptive, inattentive, and often violent (she has the scars to prove it).

The problem had progressively gotten worse, and after 20 years she had enough and quit. The boys were getting more violent, and the school officials would do nothing about it, because they were afraid of being called "Racist", and because they had no backbone.

As a Canadian, we have similar MultiKulti problems here, that everyone wants to ignore, claiming all the while, how wonderful multiculturalism is!
09:57 October 11, 2011 by raandy
@ The-ex-pat, good observation.
10:16 October 11, 2011 by sureyan
MultiKulti - No kulti is ready to handle multi... the problem is, every community want their next generation to follow their own footsteps. Where ever they go and no matter how literate they are.. They wanna live in multikulti, but their children should not mix...
10:38 October 11, 2011 by mhdamro
I would like to see the Germans in Dubai learning Arabic and following the local traditions ... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:46 October 11, 2011 by raandy
G-A-Y German society problem ! No Germans are not the one,s with the problem, the one's with the problem are those that continue to live in their own enclaves and live by their own rules and speak their own language and complain that they are unfairly treated.

Have you waited your turn at the emergency room? or the unemployment office?

Hearts IV ect, Sat on the bus seat after a few jong people have vacated it and removed their feet? xenophobic or observent?
12:13 October 11, 2011 by PortusCale
Hi all,

Being a recent immigrant myself and knowing that I am well integrated in the German society, I¦#39;ve come to learn, however, that not everybody can stumble upon the same luck as I did.

Turkish immigrants are generally regarded as the opposite of what an immigrant should do. And why? Because they don¦#39;t integrate. And teaching their children proves to be an altogether waste of time.

Now, the question seems to be who¦#39;s to blame. The incapacity of the host country or the resistance of the immigrant. Well, I¦#39;d go to the first part of the matter.

If you turn the table around, and if you speak about immigration examples of those from developed countries into poorer ones, you will find exactly the same: an integration problem. In my country, there are tons of immigrants like anywhere else (proportionally speaking, maybe as many as in Germany). Throughout my years as a student, I¦#39;ve had colleagues from immigrant backgrounds struggling to learn/integrate. All of them were from families which came from countries poorer than my own. I never had a French, English or German colleague. For these families/children a choice was offered: either going to the public school system (where, I am sure, integration problems would arise) or attending private schools, where their native language is used. Private schools, private hospitals, even entire streets are existing for French, German and English communities in my country.

Knowing this, I would say that when conditions are not presented, people tend not to integrate. And why? Because the capacity of the host country will always be insufficient. The foreigners living in my country are all having the equal right to stay. Although that they are all showing signs of integration problems. Those with conditions do not need help (in fact, they avoid integration by choice, avoiding mingling with their host society). Those without conditions are forced to integrate, facing an incompetent system to accept them, and, of course, forcing the host society to acknowledge this.

Now, this is in my own country. However, I don¦#39;t see any differences in Germany. Like any other host country, when not prepared, integration will always be a problem.

This is not a problem of Turkish not wanting to integrate. This is a problem of Germany not being prepared for having them.

But now they are here and things are not working out as they should be. Who is having more resources to resolve this? The immigrant? Or the country that is hosting him?
12:26 October 11, 2011 by scottyuk
Same problem in the UK.The chant is always the same we want, we demand, it's your fault,it's our right, we are entitled,you are racist etc.etc.As has been said by the majority of all Europeans if you do not like it here then you are free to leave,for we are over generous to you to the detriment of our own.
13:20 October 11, 2011 by thirdeyewatch
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
13:34 October 11, 2011 by GolfAlphaYankee
scottyuk #22 pretty much sum the situation up but informatively comes to the wrong conclusion: immigrants numbers will grow up not down. and the euro governments are not doing enough to address the issue... and again addressing THEIR issues means resolving YOURS.

and for those who say : (look, I am foreigner too and I am well integrated .... it must be the Turks fault then ! ) get back to me when you are from a minority group of 1 or 2 millions... it is easier for a Mexican to integrate in Germany than the US, there is few misconceptions about Mexicans here ....

I count my blessing because most people here can´ t locate my country on a map....
15:00 October 11, 2011 by delvek
@ nolibs, well said! Always makes me crack up when someone posts ... racists!!! Xenophobes!!! lol, really?

Anyway, immigrants need to assimilate. If you want to create a slice of Turkey in Germany your going to be disadvantaged.

This is a losing battle for immigrant. Even more so the world becomes more broken again. Its a cyclic thing.
15:04 October 11, 2011 by Asgarli
The sooner people start realizing that BOTH Germans and Turks cause problems, the better.


As of US/German nationality laws, yes, being born in Germany does not make you German(although in most of the cases it does), but it's way easier to naturalize here, than in US. Read laws before making a fool out of yourself.
17:20 October 11, 2011 by raandy
Integration from one country to another is not always the same kettle of fish.There are factors that slow or derail the process on both sides, Germany is not an immigrant nation, and has been for hundreds of years a Christian nation.The Jewish population prior to the Nazi,s managed there education with out a great deal of problems.The mixing of these faiths from Muslim countries exacerbates the problem.It is not the same as persons from Mexico integrating in the US.Most minorities in the US have built and funded their own schools, Muslims,Jews Catholics ,Born Again Christians, Buddhist,and many others.

Perhaps the Turkish immigrants should consider funding and building a few schools here in Germany if they are dissatisfied with the German mainstream education.Stop complaining and do it yourself.
17:52 October 11, 2011 by michael4096
When my English-speaking kids were 4 I put them in the local school (neither English nor German). After 6 months their language expertise was rated at mother-tongue with no help from me or their mother.

I cannot understand why language should be a problem but I do think that Turkish language schools are a bad idea.

Additionally, the attitudes of the kids, some from experiences related on this page, can also be found in most European and US schools from non-immigrant children. When it comes to kids not trying, I tend to first think poor teaching, poor parenting and socio-economic background before I think racism or language skills.
18:01 October 11, 2011 by nolibs
@Asgarli: Did I mention anything about naturalization? Be careful when you start calling others names, otherwise you may be the one who ends up looking like a fool.

Yes, the law did change in 1999 to make it easier for the children to get citizenship...but they can't have dual citizenship and must "reapply" at age 23 to prove they are true Germans. Dual-Citizenship is a big sticking point for the Turks, who don't want to give up their Turkish citizenship. Once again, this kind of shows you were their loyalties are, and may show why most can't/won't integrate.
18:40 October 11, 2011 by Englishted
Turkish schools? why stop there why not Turkish towns ,Turkish government ,Turkish Universities.

Oh I forgot these are already available in Turkey.
18:56 October 11, 2011 by raandy
Englishted why din't I think of that (:-
07:17 October 12, 2011 by Shirazz
"Additionally, the attitudes of the kids, some from experiences related on this page, can also be found in most European and US schools from non-immigrant children."

That is very true.

Additionally over additionally, home environmental attitude also play a big part.

If the kids' parents or elders keep expressing that their faiths or color or breed or social status or intellect is better than the other, or if they always project themselves to be inferior and are the victims of injustice (and I mean from both sides of the coin, whether they are immigrants or natives or native -native) , children generally will adopt that attitude.

Thus they will express themselves in a more superior manner, having no respect for rules and regulations, or respect for others' beliefs by looking down on them, or, play victim and protest for being treated badly.

If there are a few such kids in a classroom, they will either integrate or withdraw, depending on how strong their own beliefs have been ingrained. If there are many like minded in a class, then they become the majority and believe what they believe is ultimate.

Kids learn and adopt from example, not much from preaching. Look closely at how our own attitude may have affected our children.

It's also the parents that need to be educated on how to look at things objectively, so to be able to pass down the unbiased attitude to their children.

For Germany, I say it might take at least another generation to get to that stage....vielleicht....
07:27 October 12, 2011 by Susan1
It is complete nonsense to make excuses. I moved to Germany at age 6, had a few problems at school with the language for about half a year and then was completely fluent and accentless. My parents helped me with homework and made themselves speak German at home (much harder for adults), and when teachers told them what I needed to work on they made sure it happened. There is absolutely no excuse for Turkish parents not making the same effort! Also, my parents encouraged me to have German friends and fit in with the German way of life, not hide away in some English expat community and sneer upon German culture!
09:27 October 12, 2011 by ozdemiron
Under this topic, I will generalize the output of your comments. Sorry for this, but whenever a similar topic rises here, which I am thinking TheLocal editors are doing on purpose, the anger&hate&discrimination appears from most of the commenters.

When will you learn how to emphatize with the situation of minorities in your country? When will you learn how to be open-minded to the `others` ? When will you learn how not to blame only the `other` ?

Whenever I read the news and comments afterwards, I face old same bullshit from you. Stop it and realize the facts. First of all, realize that well educated Turkish generation no longer wants to stay in Germany. Second, again remember how you welcomed 1st generation with orchestra and flowers in train station in 60s. The results are not one side`s mistakes. German government sucked about immigration integration. And stop complaining about only Turkish immigrants and comparing with other minorities. Yes, each minority has its own dynamics and Turks are the ones who hardly can be adapted. I don`t want to raise historical issues here, but being one of the few nations who have never been dependent to other authorities, this evolution has also effected the adaptation.

For you who would curse on my comments as well, I have lived in Munich for a year, one of the most beautiful but at the same time most boring cities in Germany. I have had great German friends, worked in one of the most prestigious companies in the country, had a chance to enjoy each corner of Germany and so on.

We have to stop pointing the black sheep.
11:31 October 12, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ Susan1

Well done for you. You have successfully intergraded into a culture of excuses, xenophobia and double standard nonsense.

From what you have said, your parents provided you with the opportunities, encouragement and support you needed to adjust in your new home. That is what responsible parents do, provided they have the skills and opportunity.

The encouragement from your parents for you to have German friends was a practical thing to do, young children learn faster and differently than some older adults.

Maybe in your supportive environment there was also ignorance and insecurity? Did you have Turkish friends?

I assume you are an Adult, do you presently socialize with, or have Turkish friends today?

Turks and Germans are from the same human culture and share similar heritages, with some exceptions in traditions, religion and customs.

What about the English expat community? The sneering you mentioned has been going on ever since the Germans, Scandinavians and Normans crossed the channel to England.

English is a German language dialect. The Germans, English and the European Americans in the U.S. Canada and Australia, are from the same culture and share and celebrate some of the same traditions, customs and religion.

What is in a name?

And, what makes you or any German special when compared to a Turk?
12:17 October 12, 2011 by bungabunga
@ozdemiron - You are racist for calling a German city "boring" for not being ethnically diverse enough. I know it is hard for people like you to understand, but having a lot of ethnic food is not a good reason to be multicultural.

Some people like their own culture to be dominant in their own country. Why don't you go to China, Japan, or Saudi Arabia and tell them they need to be more like you. I think they need more Mexicans in Japan because Japan is too boring. This is of course an example of your form of racism.

Japan is a wonderful country with wonderful people and has its right to stay Japanese. Do you argue otherwise?
13:01 October 12, 2011 by nathan45
@ nolibs Nothing to do with xenophobia or racism. Those are labels Americans use to quash dissent and vilify those with an opposing opinion..Rather it has to do with first-hand observations from life.

Exactly what I was thinking.The right to be anti immigration is your right and to lock people up for speaking their belifes is as undemocratic as the nazies that those laws where trying to defeat.
13:24 October 12, 2011 by ValP
I liked the Ex-pat's comment. Very matter-of-fact and true. I see that in my daughter's class. At least I am not a teacher, so I don't care that much. But there is one thing I really don't get. How come my daughter's 9-year-old Turkish friend who was born in Germany (!) still uses wrong articles with German words??? Why do children of other 'minorities' manage to learn the language perfectly and get A-grades in German (and other subjects) after having spent just 1 or 2 years here??? The question is primarily addressed at those who think people like me are xenophobic and racist....
13:48 October 12, 2011 by rutledm
Headline should actually read "Turkish children disadvantaged by their ethnically retarded parents".
15:22 October 12, 2011 by septiSeverus
Headline @ rutledm,

Grow up and get over it. What an insolent reply.

@ ValP

It maybe easy for us to standby at a safe distance and pass judgment and feel sorry for someone less fortunate.

How much do you know about your daughters friend? Her parents or their living environment? How much time does your daughter spend with her friend?

If you are open minded enough to allow and encourage your child to socialize outside her group that will be positive and healthy for her development.

If it is possible? There are many creative ways you can come up with, to help her with her grammar while she is with your daughter and not interfere with her parents traditions and authority. You do not have to be a teacher to help your daughters friend.

Why do you care about what other people think? What really matters, how do you feel about yourself and what is best for your family.

Your daughters friend is not your responsibility, but maybe you can make a difference in her life? But, as you said, you do not care.

Turks are not strangers in Germany. Germany and Turkey share a long common history that did not just begin with the immigration guest worker program.

Not all Germans are comfortable with the changes to their environment and with the many different names and faces now in Germany.

Germans are proud of their heritage and German name identification is very important, as with German bloodline recognition.

However, the bloodline association with being German will soon become a nonissue in the near future, as German society becomes more multicultural.
15:42 October 12, 2011 by bungabunga
@septiSeverus - The issue is the immigrants do not want to give up their culture and neither do most Germans. Why should Germans give up their culture?

Rather than address the fact that Germans deserve their own homeland and culture you skip the what you see as a good resolution.

"However, the bloodline association with being German will soon become a nonissue in the near future, as German society becomes more multicultural. "

You advocating the end of German society is why people are so upset about immigration.
17:45 October 12, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ bungabunga,

Some people are upset due to their own insincerities and fear of change and should not be upset about what I said.

One reality is, the world has changed and will continue to change. Like all the wealthy Western countries around the world, the populations are comfortable, getting older and having fewer babies.

In the U.S. there will be an increase in population, the increase will

Come from the Mexican and Latin Americans, Asian and Black communities.

In Germany, the people that are the most upset t and want to protect the Germen name and bloodline, well then, stop complaining and making excuses, and start advocating more human traffic activities in the bedrooms, hallways, kitchens and office buildings across das Bundesland.
18:42 October 12, 2011 by bungabunga
@septiSeverus - That is exactly the point! People do not want lose their country and culture to an immigrant population that outbreeds them.

It is understood that Western Europe has fallen below a birth rate that will sustain a society. The causes of this are debatable. It is also understood that more developed countries have lower birth rates due to the amount of investment that goes into their offspring along with the lower chance of death.

In highly developed countries it is better to have the fewer offspring with more resources invested in them. In countries with high death rates along with those undergoing industrial revolutions it is good to have the many unskilled.

Often times in the highly developed countries there is a shortage of low skill jobs in janitorial positions and such. It is understood immigration can fill this hole, but what happens when the immigrant population grows larger than this hole? Why were the Turks brought to Germany in the first place? Have they outgrown that need?

The problem that will be seen in Europe which is already being seen is most of the immigrant population is here for unskilled work. This is where a lot of the inequality comes from. People point to race as the main factor, but low skill Germans are no better off. It just happens to be that the immigrants with high birth rates are more likely to fall into this category.

If Germany follows the course it is on it will either break out into a class/race civil war, or start building some sweat shops to give all these people something to do.
21:00 October 12, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ bungabunga

You have made many valid points here.

Not a good forecast for the future generation or a pleasant environment to live in. And, definitely not a good environment for business.

Hopefully for Germany, your predictions will be wrong?
00:06 October 13, 2011 by Susan1

To answer your questions: I don't know what you mean by 'what makes you or any German special?' - I'm not a German and I'm not special. But my family did its best to fit in with German culture. Germans do have a lot to be proud of and maintain. The country is full of beautiful old cities, art galleries, libraries and opera houses. The beauty of the language is celebrated in literature and the fascinating quirks of everyday expressions. There are wonderful forests, Heiden and agricultural areas. Regarding Turkish friends, I no longer live in Germany, but did have a Turkish friend during primary school, with whom I kept in touch when I went off to Gymnasium. In her home mainly Turkish was spoken and I don't think she was encouraged to read. She wore uncomfortable outfits with thick trousers under dresses, even in summer. She had to wait upon her older brothers and do a lot of housework, with little chance of decent homework time. It got even worse when she reached about 15, with the family aim of sending her 'back to Turkey' for marriage to a stranger (she had to run away from home!). I had no prejudice against what I saw of Turkish culture as a small child. In the evenings Turkish music drifted up from a nearby pub and I loved it. The Turkish snack shops were wonderful (halva!!!). As foreigners we were interested in many other countries and cultures (and cuisines :)). My main other experience with Turkish people: as a teen I tried going to a local youth club and was sexually harassed and called 'arrogant' for rejecting the frighteningly forward advances of some Turkish boys who dominated the whole club with threats and macho behaviour. I never went back there. Maybe you think I should have gone back for some more harassment, calling it 'cultural dialogue' or something? German boys always expressed their interest politely and could be trusted to not be too forward on a date. I'm sure you'll find many exceptions to all this, but my limited experience in summary was: Turkish girls oppressed, Turkish boys bullying and demanding.
04:34 October 13, 2011 by nathan45
We dont need mass immigration I think that the world is crazy if they think that we cant keep populating out of control like this the planet wont sustaine it. Not over populating should be rewarded not off set by immigration.

Countries that have stable poplulations like France and Ireland are what every nation should model after because they are able to have a stable economy and keep their culture without puting further strain on the planet and risking safety by bringing possibly dangerous third world crazys into our citys although they still let in way too many immigrants.

most of the worlds welth is owned by 1% of the people who just want to get richer at any cost they dont care about the cultures, races and the inviroment they just want to get richer and down sizing the economy to adjust for changing populaion hurts their pocket book.

Spread the word save your cultures and the inviroment. Capitalism was built on the backs of the poor and the slaves.
08:39 October 13, 2011 by ValP
@ septiSeverus

Quote 1:

..."How much do you know about your daughters friend? Her parents or their living environment? How much time does your daughter spend with her friend?..."

well, I know enough to be able to say that it is a well integrated family w/o any social issues (no Kopftuch either). And regarding the communication issue... suffice it to say that this girl was the only one who was not picked up after my daughter's b/day party last year, not b/c they for some reason couldn't - NO!, but b/c they EXPECTED me to take their daughter home (which we did after the rest of the 7-8 year-olds were picked up by their parents).

Quote 2:

"...There are many creative ways you can come up with, to help her with her grammar while she is with your daughter and not interfere with her parents traditions and authority. You do not have to be a teacher to help your daughters friend."

Help her with her Grammar???? Hey, I am NOT German and have lived in Germany less than this girl has! My daughter is only half German, but (surprisesurprise!) is totally bilingual. No problems with German Grammar here. See the point???????
11:51 October 13, 2011 by Asgarli

You mentioned "being German", and naturalized German is also German. And most of Turks who want to have dual nationality can easily have it - by one parent being German national, and other Turkish. So forbidding dual nationality was again a big failure from German government, not even to mention how many "real" Germans got hurt by loosing their nationalities when getting for example US nationality. (I know a few of such cases, they were really unhappy about it.)

You also mentioned that you want to "send them home" if they don't want to integrate. How are you really planning to do that? They have German citizenship, not Turkish, their home is Germany. You can send them back only by Hitler's laws. So when you say such things, like "solution is to to send them home", I am afraid, you deserve to be called by names.

Germany should just remove Hartz IV, everyone will then be really keen to learn German/integrate in order to get proper jobs. But German government is too socialistic for that.
13:21 October 13, 2011 by michael4096
"That is exactly the point! People do not want lose their country and culture to an immigrant population that outbreeds them."

Tough! It is called democracy when it happens.

However, it is not happening here. Discussion and complaint in this thread revolves around Turks forcing their culture on Germans, but there is little evidence for this and quite a bit of evidence that it is not true.

So many of the "my experience" stories of Turks in Germany are exactly the same as as the stories I hear from friends and colleagues living temporarily in the US about African-Americans. Gangs and cliques, not participating in schools and education, arrogance and crime - but, this is nothing to do with immigrant status and everything to do with socio-economics.

And, when I look around I find, for example, that many local bars are now owned and run by Turks: muslims running alcohol shops - this is not them forcing their culture on Germany, just the opposite.

Of course, there are immigrant families who will simply continue with whatever culture they were brought up with but I think most are changing much faster than any breeding effect. It is not a problem today and is getting less and less with every day that passes.
15:59 October 13, 2011 by septiSeverus

My reply was in response to what you wrote. From my comprehension, I interpreted ambivalence.

@Susan1 My parents helped me with homework and made themselves speak German at home (much harder for adults), and when teachers told them what I needed to work on they made sure it happened. There is absolutely no excuse for Turkish parents not making the same effort! Also, my parents encouraged me to have German friends and fit in with the German way of life, not hide away in some English expat community and sneer upon German culture.

I was wrong and I apologize.

I see from your experience you do understand why some Turkish children and in particular what many young girls born in Germany have to endure. Girls are caught in between two very different worlds of social values, religion and restrictive traditions

Its getting better, but not much has changed in Germany. Some Turkish boys are rude and undisciplined. The mothers and young girls have restrictive lives.

As you also mentioned, the young girls that have the courage and opportunity do runaway.

Other young women in less restrictive families cope the best way they can, by secretively socializing in discos and at house parties.

Young women of Turkish, Middle Eastern and Arabic of descents, some born in Germany and others immigrated along with their parents at young ages, have told me about their families wishes for them to return back to their parents homeland and marry a young boy or man they have never met.

Some of those arrangements are made between families before the children are born.

They have also expressed their dislikes and refusal to even date or marry a man of Turkish or Arabic descent, even if the men are from a secular tradition.

With the extreme diversities in religion, politics and traditions, a multicultural society is a hard sell in Germany nowadays. Not an easy fit for many immigrants and Germans…or in Western Europe for that matter.
10:25 October 14, 2011 by marktstreet
@ delvek

Hear that, drip, drip, drip.
10:37 October 14, 2011 by septiSeverus
If I did not get your point before,

@ ValP

But there is one thing I really don't get. How come my daughter's 9-year-old Turkish friend who was born in Germany (!) still uses wrong articles with German words??? Why do children of other 'minorities' manage to learn the language perfectly and get A-grades in German (and other subjects) after having spent just 1 or 2 years here???

@ Valp

Help her with her Grammar???? Hey, I am NOT German and have lived in Germany less than this girl has! My daughter is only half German, but (surprisesurprise!) is totally bilingual. No problems with German Grammar here. See the point???????

What about no Kopftuch issue? You are not Turkish so I can somewhat understand.

Ask your German better half about the cultural and political relationship between die Kopftücher and Germany during WWI.

Surprise, surprise,

Your daughter who is half German is among the other minorities that are totally bilingual.

Now, I do.
18:57 October 14, 2011 by conniemarks

A most encouragingl message. Just one minor point though. It is simplification to say that English is "a German language dialect." English is a member of the Indo-European family of languages, a broad family which includes most of the European languages spoken today. This Indo-European family includes several major branches: Latin and the modern Romance languages; the Germanic languages;the Indo-Iranian languages, including Hindi and Sanskrit; the Slavic languages; the Baltic languages of Latvian and Lithuanian (but not Estonian); the Celtic languages; and Greek.

Brythonic, a Celtic language, was spoken in Britain before the Angles and Saxons arrived who imposed their language. However modern English is a mixture of words with roots in Latin, Greek, Arabic, French, Spanish and Hindi. At school we were regularly tested by our English teacher on derivations of English. She would list 20 words whose roots we had to identify.
20:37 October 14, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ Susan1

I don't know what you mean by 'what makes you or any German special?'

My sneer remark was out of speculation regarding your statements.

As for my remark, what makes any German special?

Past German governments and many German scientists, philosophers and other brilliant minds by European standards developed and encouraged a European mindset that Germans and Europeans are superior.

The concept and invention of the Caucasian Race by a Swede and the classification of the Caucasians race by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach.

German scientists with the governments blessing have conducted experiments on the brains of dead human beings not of European culture to prove European superiority and intelligence are just two examples.

My grandfather who I knew well before he died eleven years ago, at age 89 was born in the early 1900s. I use him only as a reference in time to illustrate the seeds for contempt of other human beings was planted long before Hitler and the Nazis were elected in Germany.

People are people around the world. However, I understand and get it why some Europeans behave the way they do. I have no issue with the pride Germans have for their heritage and traditions.

I also have knowledge of Germanys long history and the many contributions Germans have made to Western civilization. And, I feel Germans should be proud.

Here, I am not making any references to the past two world wars.
13:04 October 15, 2011 by conniemarks
To septiSeverus

Yes indeed, Germans have excellent grounds to be proud of their extraordinary contribution to western culture, especially to music, the sciences and social history. It was in Germany for instance, that a remarkably comprehensive scheme of social insurance was constructed in less than ten years from 1881 till 1889. However, the myth that the Germans are of superior intelligence stills lingers. I can now be diffused because of global research. A lead article in 2005 in a major American psychological journal reported on research based on 10 categories of research evidence from around the world. It established that race differences in average IQ are largely genetic. The average IQ for East Asians centres around 106; for Whites about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa. The problem for the younger Germans of today, who are, by and large, absolutely delightful is that they have no way of ever emerging from the shadow case by their great-grandparents. I lived and worked in Germany for over 30 years and remember how morose and unsmiling their grandparents' generation was, because I was in British liaison work and had to deal with the German civil service and ministries, local and national. Among these Germans were many who were simply astonished at the intelligence (and courtesy) of their British conquerors. I remember talking in some detail to a German teacher about Rudolf Steiner and she asked me how I knew so much. As a teenager I was a visitor to Germany and had taken my O'Level text and exercise books with me to revise for my forthcoming O'Levels. One of the sons in the family where I stayed was a 2nd year medical student and was gobsmacked when he looked through them. He said "we haven't done this at university yet". He was that generation, brought up to believe the British were not intelligent enough to beat the Germans. O yes, I have a good memory! They were also under the impression that we were ugly because we were not a 'pure' race. Once, I was introduced to a German was stunned I was English. He retorted, "Englisch?! Das kann nicht sein! Alle Englaenderinnen haben vorstehende Zaehne und grosse Fuesse"! Fortunately we now have enough empirical evidence to discount any notions of genetic superiority within European peoples.
18:47 October 15, 2011 by septiSeverus
@ conniemarks

From my experience he was being nice and polite.

Er hätte Ihnen sagen können nach ein paar Flaschen Bier: wären Sie seine beste Freundin, von den englischen Inselaffen.

Some Germans are very good at forgetting what to remember and good at remembering what to forget.

It seems you are a well-balanced person and understand, Lack of knowledge is happiness.
12:06 October 16, 2011 by conniemarks

You are of course, quite right. He said it in a mildly jokey way. It was clear to me at the time - a very long time ago - that he wanted to pay me a compliment, but I suppose he just didn't have the diplomacy to realize he was being rather insulting to my own people! A couple of years later I was at a reception at the Industrieclub in Duesseldorf. A guest asked me whether I was French (I had dark brown hair as a young women). I shook my head and smiled, He then reeled off a list of other nationalities ... Spanish? Italian? Finnish? (which rather surprised me!). I then told him I was English. "Ach nein!" he replied, "Englisch? Kann das wahr sein?" or something along those lines. You seem to be very broad-minded and understanding. May I ask whether you are a young man or woman. I would guess a young man. Am probably wrong! Below there's a photo of me when I was nearly 60 years of age, so you can judge for yourself. I'm now 73 and wear my hair back in a prim bun!

10:04 October 18, 2011 by nolibs

You're right, there is no real way to send them home, and due to the greed of corporations that wanted cheap labor the German people will have to clean up the mess for decades.
07:17 November 1, 2011 by Doggy
"I think they need more Mexicans in Japan because Japan is too boring." Sorry, but Japan does not need any.( Japan is similar to Germany in terms of laws).Many of them were asked to live definitely at the beginning of the recession while they lost the jobs mainly at the factories ( blue collar workers ) and had to live...and this happens... I agree with a fact that the Turkish immigrants kids might feel a little bit as " outsiders" and I do feel sorry for the kids after reading couple of the articles. If we look closer at the problem, we easily find out that they are being labeled as the generation of the blue collar workers. Probably this label still exists and is being " activated" starting at the neighborhoods, at latter at the educational sectors, the kids feel as being swept away. It should be stopped.I do not remember myself being discriminated at any schools, whether they were African or Asian or Europeans, it had never ever made any difference to me who is my classmate. This is my opinion only, after reading the articles. I can not say anything further,
11:29 February 7, 2012 by emejota
I am a foreigner. And I have never been disadvantaged in any way. Playing the victim card is easy. But sorry, if I only see Turkish parents who speak Turkish with their children, Turkish children not being able to express even the most basical things in German and already as a child expressing their repulsive feelings towards non-Turks, I do not weonder that they are the ones with the most problems in society.

I have hardly seen people that are more prejudiced, racist, homophobic and anti-Semitic than Turkish people. I knew a lot of Turkish people throughout life. But friendship has never been possible with the very very most of them. Unfortunately after some time I always had to realize that the above mentioned faccts do always appear after some time. And I do not want to be around with racist, intolerant, religious or other way of prejudiced fanatism.
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