• Germany's news in English

Nazi castle turned into museum dedicated to Hitler's dreaded SS

AFP · 15 Apr 2010, 11:09

Published: 15 Apr 2010 11:09 GMT+02:00

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The €7-million ($10-million) exhibition, dubbed the world's first dedicated entirely to the dreaded Schutzstaffel, charts its growth from Hitler's elite guard to a band of more than a million men who committed unspeakable crimes across Europe.

Among previously unseen items is SS leader Heinrich Himmler's diary, showing visits to the castle planned in his spidery script, as well as uniforms and devices used to test whether officers were "Aryan" enough.

Also included with the 1,000 pieces on show are two Totenkopf rings, silver bands engraved with Himmler's signature given to senior officers, with a swastika and the Sig Rune, the instantly recognisable SS symbol.

Wewelsburg Castle, an imposing 17th century triangular edifice on a hilltop south of Hannover in central Germany, itself played a pivotal role in SS history.

Himmler took out a 100-year lease on the castle in 1934, just after Hitler's Nazi party came to power, and intended to transform it into a training school for elite SS officers.

Later he developed more ambitious plans to take over the surrounding village and build an SS capital city with the castle at "the centre of the new world" after the "final victory."

Wewelsburg hosted meetings of top SS generals, including a key rendezvous in June 1941 on the eve of the invasion of Russia where Himmler told the assembled Nazis the goal was "to kill 30 million Slavs."

Himmler ordered bizarre renovations to the castle, creating a spooky circular crypt with a gas pipe in the floor for an eternal flame, a Nazi swastika in the ceiling and 12 pedestals at even intervals around the walls.

This room has given rise to a host of myths about Wewelsburg, that it was conceived as "Himmler's Camelot", designed to hold meetings with his 12 top generals as King Arthur once convened the Knights of the Round Table.

Moritz Pfeiffer, a 27-year-old historian who helped design the permanent exhibition, said torch-bearing SS guards or statues probably stood on the pedestals. But he scotched the myth that Himmler conducted bizarre pagan rituals in the echoing crypt.

"That can't be scientifically proven," he said. "We know the number 12 crops up time and again in the castle, but we can't say exactly what that means."

Directly above the crypt is the "Hall of the Supreme SS Leaders," another circular room supported by 12 stone pillars with a mysterious occult symbol known as the "schwarze Sonne" or "black sun" set in the floor.

The symbol, a dark circle with 12 crooked "spokes" making up the "sun," has baffled historians and fascinated neo-Nazis who have adopted it as an alternative sign to the swastika, which is banned in Germany.

Indeed, the castle has become a magnet for neo-Nazis and authorities are aware the new museum could attract unwanted attention from the far-right.

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"We had people coming to the castle and performing the Hitler salute. You can only deflect this way of thinking if you show where it leads," Heinz Koehler, the deputy head of the local administration, told AFP. "We reserve the right to throw people out."

Among those expected to attend the opening was 104-year-old Leopold Engleitner, an Austrian survivor of the concentration camp near the castle where 3,900 people were held. One third of the inmates died.

The museum commemorates victims of the camp, including Günter Ransenberg, a 15-year-old Jewish boy who accidentally hit the daughter of an SS officer during a friendly snowball fight.

He was hanged for "racial crimes."

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Your comments about this article

11:53 April 15, 2010 by William Thirteen
they needed to use the Shroud of Turin as a curtain to keep the curios locals from peeping in the windows!
12:00 April 15, 2010 by whatzup
What an obsenity. That place should be bombed immediately. I can't imagine the Israelis will let it stand.
13:13 April 15, 2010 by Clapoti
Yeah let's forget all the lessons from the past.
13:35 April 15, 2010 by Bushdiver
I see no problem with this exhibition. Trying to bury everything Hitler related isn't going to change what happened. I think it would be educational as well as historical.
14:16 April 15, 2010 by janreg58
I agree with bushdiver. And who cares what the Israelians have to say, it's not their country?! They're committing war crimes right as we speak!
14:29 April 15, 2010 by moistvelvet
"on a hilltop south of Hannover in central Germany" - Why not simply say it is north of Munich and east of Paris, it is nowhere near Hannover which the article suggests. Does the local think people are too thick to look at a map, Paderborn isn't hard to find, certainly wasn't in 1945 ;-)

But great that this exhibition is on, I went to Wewelsburg once before and was dissapointed that it had no mention of its brief dark period in history, now there is something interesting to look at.
17:07 April 15, 2010 by Prufrock2010
An odd way to boost tourism, if you ask me.
17:16 April 15, 2010 by whatzup
These folks aren't fooling anyone. There's a difference between educational and promotional. Become a SS storm trooper and take part in all this neat mythology in a really cool castle. The real test is how many exhumed skeletons of the millions the SS murdered are displayed along with the uniforms and swastikas. Seems that some germans *still* haven't learned the price of behaving badly.
18:01 April 15, 2010 by dbert4
"That place should be bombed immediately. I can't imagine the Israelis will let it stand."

Rather interesting, one idiot calls for the place to be "bombed" and suggesting that the Israelis are going to do something about it.

A number of posts are made pointing out the outrageous nature of that post. ALL of them are promptly deleted by those pseudo journalists at the "Local". I guess producing bad translations of German news stories leaves them plenty of time to defend pro-Israeli idiots against those pointing out the absurdity and outrageousness of that post.

Although to "deny" the holocaust or to be positive regarding Nazi is illegal. The posts that I both wrote and read did nothing of the sort.

Is "The Local" owned by Rupert Murdoch? May I remind them that promoting terrorism or providing a forum for is illegal.
19:50 April 15, 2010 by whatzup
What's outrageous is dbert4 and his attacks on the Israelis. Seems that it was his posts that were the ones that were outrageous and absurd.
19:56 April 15, 2010 by jubilee93
I do not think this museum glorifies the SS but is a brave attempt to face this difficult period. It is a warning about man's darker side.
21:14 April 15, 2010 by wood artist
We can only learn by preserving the truth of what happened. The time is past to pretend that it didn't happen or that it was somehow justified or even justifiable.

How much of the attraction of the Nazi program was based upon the symbolism and rites that they created. Speer spoke openly about the things he did to create the proper image at the party meetings in Nürnberg, using searchlights to create the illusion of an enclosed space, etc.

Every organization had it's own badges and uniforms, and clearly Himmler wanted the SS to be immersed in that sort of pageantry. Only be seeing firsthand how this sort of thing was created can we hope to avoid more of the same.

I think I just change my upcoming travel plans to include this as another stop. There's way too much to learn.

23:30 April 15, 2010 by Logic Guy
Well, there are many influences in society.

Some are "negative" and others are "positive".

An individual's sense of self-identity determines which influences they take on.

All things are equal and therefore relative. There will always be problems in this world. And surely it's impossible to satisfy everyone. Therefore it all comes down to how a person responds to the things they encounter.
23:48 April 15, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Logic Guy:

"All things are equal and therefore relative."

Sorry, I just couldn't let a preposterous statement like that go by. The atrocities of the SS are equal to...for instance, what? The work of Marie Curie? Space exploration? The discovery of a polio vaccine? The teachings of the Christ that you profess to believe in?
23:54 April 15, 2010 by Beachrider
In the 1980s there was a Saturday Night Live skit where angry people kept arguing the same point over and over. The skit showed that they attempted to show that they were moving to new topics, but the old argument always resumed. The arguing people just lose themselves in a discussion that won't sway anyone.

There doesn't seem to be anything inherently evil in Hitler's Eagle's-nest. It was just balanced with reflections on the problems with the people that lived there. Perhaps that can be a model for this place, too.
00:22 April 16, 2010 by wxman
History is history. It shouldn't be hidden from view. The best way to alert the young to the good and bad that preceded them is to keep it out in the open.
00:30 April 16, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ wxman:

I can't disagree with that. However, history shouldn't be sanitized or glorified, either. This is where an SS museum becomes a thorny issue. There are all too many who wish to distort history to their own nefarious ends by rewriting it or by glorifying the unthinkable. Many of them are here in Germany. Some are in the American Republican congress and militia movements.
17:40 April 16, 2010 by Talonx
@ Prufrock2010

Very few who are willing to distort history are really in Germany. Read up on what German kids learn in history class nowadays, you'll be pleasantly surprised. It's a shame that more nations don't follow the German model and end up with nationalist educations along the lines of what goes on in Israel and the U.S. I remember looking at a history primer for early childhood education from 2006 for the U.S. that read, "The goal of history education in the U.S. is to paint American history in a positive light". I imagine that if one were to look at a history/social studies primer in Germany it would say, 'The goal of history education is to teach the path with the aim of learning from the past'.

I don't see how this museum will be a big problem.
18:42 April 16, 2010 by whatzup
Of course the museum is a problem by its very existence. If you believe its sole function is educational then I have a bridge I want to sell you. Prufrock is correct in his fears that the object of the project is the glorification of a despicable part of German history disguised as an educational experience. That this kind of thing was even * considered * in germany shows how clueless and insensitive many germans are despite their history classes.
18:53 April 16, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Well, whether it's sinister or benign, there is a certain political tone deafness to it.

Maybe they should put it in Hungary. There seems to be a hospitable climate for Nazi history in Budapest these days.
20:23 April 16, 2010 by Rhett
I wonder if the Isreaeli Defense Forces who are currently shooting down innocent Palestinian women and children have a place they gather to celebrate their ghastly deeds.
20:34 April 16, 2010 by Prufrock2010
They do. It's called the West Bank.
20:55 April 16, 2010 by Rhett
Prufrock2010, is your reponse intended to be as callous as it sounds, i.e., are you saying the entire West Bank is, justifiably, the IDF's killing field?
21:11 April 16, 2010 by dbert4
@Rhett - She appears to be agreeing with you....were you going for another reaction?
21:16 April 16, 2010 by Prufrock2010

I never said "justifiably."


I am not a "she."
21:28 April 16, 2010 by Braam Kemp
This is one of those situations that Germany can¦#39;t win. They are now criticized for endorsing a museum ¦quot;dedicated¦quot; to the ss; If they had decided not to turn the castle into a museum, or chose to demolish it, they would have been chastised for ¦quot;trying to hide their past¦quot;

The choice of words also exacerbates the situation. Instead of saying the museum is dedicated to the ss, the journalist should have said, the museum is about ss history, or something else along those lines. This shows you the power a journalist has over the gullible mind.

Besides, if a person visits the museum, and is titillated by it to the point of adoration for the ss, I can only assume that that person already had some infatuation with the ss before he visited the museum. Sure, some child might leave the museum with an undesired impression of fascination, but maybe a child should not be let in to the place. Also, as soon as the child matures it should understand the very simple concept that the ss leadership¦#39;s plan to ethnically cleanse Eastern Europe of 30 million Slavs, was bad.

I don¦#39;t even understand why people waste their energy getting upset about matters like this, how is it relevant to their lives? Don¦#39;t they have better things to worry about than to try to get people seeing things their way? If everyone on this earth thought alike, there wouldn¦#39;t have been any issues to be upset about anyway.

As for this popular say-thing, that we should keep the past vivid in our mind so we may learn from it, it may be the only reason I would be opposed to the museum. The stuff they teach in school is nothing more than severely truncated summaries and not very helpful in understanding history in any way. How is a newspaper caricature about Chamberlain and Hitler with a caption, ¦quot;giving in to evil¦quot;, going provide a high school student with an understanding of the complexities of the appeasement issue?

Maybe all that keeping history alive is good for is generating irrelevant, nationalistic hatred in us people. I don¦#39;t think I will forget the difference between good and evil if I am never reminded of the Holocaust, etc. again.

As for the suggestion that the museum should house the skeletons of those who were killed by the ss, won¦#39;t that demand that all military museums house the skeletons of all those who have been killed in the thousands upon thousands of wars this earth has seen?

Hopefully the museum will provide an insightful dissection of the ss, and help people come to know where the lines between the rotten apples and the everyday patriots could be drawn. Compare the terrible and delusional conceptions of mass murder discussed in the upper echelons of Himmler¦#39;s command to the fighting force, Das Reich, to see that even the ss had men of varying ideas and character. Yes, even the ss can be oversimplified and generalized.

There is also the factor of people who have an interest in military history who would visit the museum for non-radical reasons.
21:35 April 16, 2010 by Rhett
Sorry, Prufrock2010 and Dbert4. We're on the same page.
21:39 April 16, 2010 by Braam Kemp
I occasionally think about England's history. What did they have to do to keep their iron grip on the world? They have written most of the world's history; they still control much of the world's media; they are today spread out over entire continents that did not, by any given right, belong to them; their language is compulsory to learn and everyone speaks it today. Yet, no one cares about the many wars they had to wage, many atrocities they had to commit to obtain what they have today, and that we all have but no choice to learn their language. It is simply rationalized and accepted as the current world situation. Whether Germany had won WW2 or not, within maybe a few more decades, maybe centuries, nobody will have any emotion regarding their history or the ss anymore. it will just be accepted as one of those things man kind resorted to in its quest and gamble to achieve domination.
22:33 April 16, 2010 by Talonx
@ Whazup

You really don't seem to understand the state of affairs in Germany regarding how they deal with their past. I would recomend one book particular to the subject of memorial building and museum building, written in English, "The Ghosts of Berlin: Confronting German History in the Urban Landscape". As well, I would recomend looking up the idea of Vergangenheitsbewältigung (it's not really too daunting a task, it's such a large subject area in German that a load of material has made it to English translation). On the other hand you could continue going with your gut :), see where that gets, walking over bridges that don't exist down pathways that lead to abysmal failure...

@ Braam Kemp

You seem to be ignorant of current standards in German history education, if you are German or can read German I would love to direct you to some resources that would nullify your argument. I could sum it up for you here though. Your supposition that German kids today get the same level of history understanding as American or English schoolchildren is way off target, I can tell you from personal experience and from data that the level of history education in the US is null compared to what is taught in Germany. I think there are ways in which the US really excells beyond most other nations in education (teaching and facilitating handicapped learning for instance), however when it comes to the humanities Germany is way ahead of the curve. They have a solidified standard for education concerning the NSDAP and aren't about to drop them. I don't think you understand the significance of Germany being the first nation to have started dealing with its past atrocities in such an honest and adequate manner (still outpacing all other in this regard and still working to refine the method to a science).
23:01 April 16, 2010 by rugczar
an interesting article.I agree with braam kemp. note this article is from" Germany's news in English". i also agree with wood artist. if some country did terrible things in the past, i.e ; almost the entire world, took some of these same steps to survive or grow. America with the Native Americans or Mongolia/ Gengus Khan. France with Napolean, etc. etc. Do we just blow up the entire country, untill there's one big hole?( in that case the whole world would look like craters' on the moon) or learn from that countries mistakes or growin' pains and learn from their history to make us all a better world.
23:33 April 16, 2010 by Talonx
@ rugczar

I largely agree with your point, except that In my professional opinion and experience Germany is one of the only countries to actually teach it's children extensively about the atrocities in their ancestors past. Children in Germany today learn about the Dritte Reich for longer than it actually existed, I don't think you can say that about any of the other atrocities you mentioned within the countries responsible.

The SS Museum is a long time in the making, such museums have been talked about essentially since the late 60's with the rise of Willy Brandt. The problem for politicians then was essentially, 'how do we provide suitable platforms for recognizing the past without providing space for undesirable ideas to prosper, places where neo-nazis can lay wreaths'. The difference today is that Germany finds very little neo-nazism within it's borders in comparions to other nations (e.g. U.S., U.K., Russia, etc.). I applaud those that decided to put this museum out there and I even further applaud their efforts to set the museum in context by including memorials within dedicated to victims of the SS (read the article over if you missed this).
00:33 April 17, 2010 by Logic Guy
Well, the truth is, "A thing doesn't have value if they can't be compared to something else." Therefore all things are important.

I have come to realize that there are interesting similarities between human emotions and physics. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

And If we all looked the same and had identical character traits, the humans simply would never have left zero.

We would all be lost and trapped in a world without meaning.
01:13 April 17, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Logic Guy:

"We would all be lost and trapped in a world without meaning. "

Haven't you heard? We are. It's been in all the papers and on television.
01:36 April 17, 2010 by madgerman1
I think this is very nice and should have been opened before now.The ss did nothing more than serve the vaterland.You can take the boy out of germany but not the german out of the boy. danke!
02:37 April 17, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ madgerman1:

That's encouraging news. How's that Nazi thing going for you, boy?
02:52 April 17, 2010 by lilsmokie
05:41 April 17, 2010 by pmach
You can always tell who the Israli trolls which are hired to visit webs sites like this and call people Nazis. Like hint hint Prufruck.
06:18 April 17, 2010 by wetdawg~
Paderborn...I was there forty years ago when one could simply walk in and explore. My god, I felt the spirit of the Furher there...it was all very supernatural...the only thing missing was Himmlers "Great Chair"...a gas pipe was in the Great Room as to be an eternal flame...standards for the arns of the SS Generals...it was a very high experience...I felt like I was in church.
08:17 April 17, 2010 by Talonx
And there is my point, those posting positively about the SS (madgerman1 and others, seemingly) are not living in Germany.
11:33 April 17, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ pmach:

I don't call people Nazis. They identify themselves as such. And if I were a hired "Israli [sic] troll" I would dumb it down so folks of your intellectual capacity could understand it.
14:46 April 17, 2010 by whatzup
This is all pretty unbelievable really, especially the attempts at justifying this atrocity. I suggest that the producers pipe in the proper background music with titles such as Cole Porter's "Anything Goes" or the theme from "Triumph Of The Will"
16:02 April 17, 2010 by Stuart1977
It's just a building, leave it be. You cannot change what has happened, just learn from it.
17:36 April 17, 2010 by madgerman1
@ Talonx You act like your ashamed of being german, probably dont live in germany,as you are talking to someone whos uncle fought for germany,fought for the country ,if germany is so bad ,leave no one is making you stay.And be proud of who you are and quit hiding your heritage.Im german and proud! ja!
19:13 April 17, 2010 by Talonx
@ Madgerman1

I fail to see how supporting the SS is a way to be proud of being German (though if you want to out yourself as a Nazi, perfect way to go), especially considering they were started by an Austrian guy, not too mention the fact that they were probably one of the most ruthless and moralless death squads to have existed in the 1900s. On the point of pride, I am proud of the way that Germany has delt with its past in an honest and accurate way towards a humanitarian end. I find it hard to believe, with the opinions and the craziness you've expressed, that you live in Germany. I'll say it again, I think you're from the States or living in the



See the American madgerman1's posts, this is what happens when you aren't honest about your country's past (or don't learn about it at all). This is why it's a good idea to have an SS museum devouted to accuracy and memorialization of victims of the SS.
01:21 April 18, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Talonx:

It's to be expected that the Nazis will be crawling out of the woodwork on threads devoted to subjects like this, especially with their Führer's birthday coming up in a few days.

If Madgerman1 is really a German, perhaps he can post his opinions in German. I don't think he can. I think he's a troll from the San Fernando Valley with way too much time on his hands and no parental controls on his computer.
03:31 April 18, 2010 by Heinz-Reg
@madgerman1 I'm of Germany decent,and I am very poud of it !!! So proud that I would love to give-up my U.S. citizenship and become a German citizen.Germany's German population is shrinking,Maybe this is a way to stop this. If you can prove your German ancestry,maybe they could allow your return to German citizenship. Long live Germany!!!!
11:47 April 18, 2010 by Talonx
@ Heinz-Reg

Thank the stars that it doesn't work that way.
23:21 April 18, 2010 by Johannes De Silentiio
I think it is time to give the Germans a break and stop the constant palaver about "German guilt." Never is a word mentioned of the equally unimaginable suffering of the Germans. My mother was a refuge from East Prussia and tells of the raped women she saw nailed to barn doors and the ditches full of dead German. Over 12 million Germans perished in that war. The predictable response that somehow the Germans deserved all this because "they started the war" is not only morally repugnant but also grieviously ignorant. Let us not forget the millions who have perished in conflicts since then in the so-called "better world" we created by destroying Germany. Yes, Germany was destroyed, however it may appear today. To be a German today means to be a pariah who must forever meekly prove the right to walk among men. So take the guilt bashing for crap I and most German - by far - had exactly zero to do with and go away. The SS and the German death camps are long gone.
22:19 April 19, 2010 by whatzup
I think it will be time to give the germans a break, Johannes, when they stop trying to celebrate organizations like the SS by building a memorial to their memory, which this project is despite whatever the buiders try to claim. The germans did suffer during WWII but they were very willing participants in the abuse and murders of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Russians many other folks. Germany was destroyed like it tried to destroy eastern europe and Russia - the expression "what goes around comes around" actually applied in this case. If you know anything about germany history the Germans tried to destroy these nations utterly and entirely, the people and the nations both with the cruelest methods imaginable. Luckily Germany was destroyed itself before it could accomplish that entirely. In my view holding germans responsible for the huge amount of evil they inflicted is neither morally repugnant nor ignorant. A population is responsible for the government it supports and the policies of that government. If there is any justice under heaven the germans will carry the guilt of what they and their forefathers did until the end of the german state.
22:54 April 19, 2010 by Talonx
@ Whatzup

Where are you from? I want to hold you up on your statement that "A population is responsible for the government it supports and the policies of that government", even seemingly one no politician in office today voted Hitler into office or had anything to do with his support, beyond perhaps being forced to participate in the Hitlerjugend.

So where are you from? US, responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, japanese internment camps, dropping nuclear weapons, executing people for firebombing yet firebombing anyways. Israel, responsible for torture, and indescriminate bombing campaigns in every conflict it's taken part in in the middle east, as well as electing a nationalist hawk into office knowing full well where nationalism leads, and of course runninf a police state in which military service is mandatory.

I repeat where are you from? Though, I could also ask, 'what religion are you?', if your a christian or a jew we have to hold you accountable for the 3 genocides god orders in the old testament, their is so much you could be held accountable for, because of your ancestors. But, how about this, simply learn about what your ancestors did, don't deflect it, don't let it happen again, and don't treat it like it didn't happen, that more than makes up for any familial responsibility; thankfully this is what Germany does the SS museum being an example. Or you can continue to avoid listening to reason and talk out your #ss.
23:50 April 19, 2010 by whatzup
If your're trying to equivocate fairy stories in the bible or american indian wars with throwing jews in gas chambers, sorry, I'm not convinced. Try those red herrings on folks a little less sophisticated than readership here at the local.de. And a small tip, in the future avoid potty mouth and pretending that your opinion is the only rational one. These kinds of tactics merely highlight your immaturity, reflect badly on what you have to say and convince no one.
03:29 April 20, 2010 by globalchick
As someone of Polish descent I find the attitude of whatzup to be very very troubling and his/her attitude to be quite bizarre. For clarity, my Polish father was orphaned in World War 2 and in addition, his uncle (my Great Uncle) was killed by the Germans at Monte Cassino in 1944.)

I believe it is absolutely imperative that museums such as the one just opening at Wewelsburg castle be opened. It is important to keep what happened in World War 2 alive lest it be forgotten. Children of those directly affected by World War 2 such as myself are getting older - I'm 40 now and I can see that the younger generation of people aged 20 just see World War 2 as "old history" now. It is absolutely vital that museums such as the new SS museum continue to open to keep the history of what happened alive so that young people have something to visit that educates them about what happened.

As for the fact that a few "neo nazis" might visit the Castle in my opinion this is completely irrelevant as their numbers will be microscopic compared to the large numbers of Americans and/or the relatives of victims of the Third Reich (like myself )who will visit the Museum as a way of respecting what happened to our families during World War 2 and educating ourselves.

Can I also make the point in this post that the Dokumentation centre at Berchtesgaden (which I recently visited) and in which all exhibits are in German needs to be expanded and redone so that the exhibits are in both German AND English. Most of the visitors at Berchtesgaden are in fact American and although you are provided with an audio guide in English this does not compensate for the frustration that all exhibits are in German.
09:09 April 20, 2010 by Talonx
@ Whatzup

Genocide is genocide, there are no greater or lesser examples. According to the definition of genocide (established in the articles of genocide following WWII, the definition used to define what happened to the Jews) what happened to Native Americans, what was perpatrated by Canada and the US would be plainly and clearly termed Genocide today.

Where are you from, you've yet to answer? I think you're from the States based on your response. That being, perhaps, out of the way. I would like to blame you, in accordance with your own philosophy for everything ever perpetrated by the US govt. A simple repeat of everything in my last post, plus slavery and kidnapping of Africans, support for dictators in South America, torture, experimenting with drugs on the civilian population. I could go on, but I bet I would start to lose you, you probably don't even understand what most of these accusations refer to and you'll probably just talk out your #ss again and say something like, 'but that's different' continuing to avoid the fact that heaping all the blame for past atrocities on the current German population is unfair, considering that non of them had anything to do with it, and those that did are on their death bads or going insane.
14:59 April 20, 2010 by whatzup
I'm a bit surprised to hear from you on this subject Talonx as it seems you have nothing new to add.

As someone said above the germans can exhibit a certain tone deafness about issues like this which is all the more worrisome in view of their history. Its as if the americans created a theme park at the Ab Graib prision in Iraq. Whatever the outcome of this project the world should keep a sharp eye on the germany and its politics. As Winston Churchill said the germans are either at your feet... or they're at your throat.
17:12 April 20, 2010 by FcukOff_FM
all the negative people you are just plain clowns. it is a god damn history, how many you actually were in that war? you wasn't even born then. how about WW I, Vietnam, Rome, people died and nobody is talking sh*t liket so what did they personally did to you? and don't give me that crap your great great grandparents and sh*t. people die one way or another. so you gonna spend your life talking sh*t about history when you never were born then. why nobody keeping sharp eye for Rome, Italy, Russia ?and many other if you start digging in history and you never talk bad about dead people or you are just worse then them. if you have to say something say it to the face or keep it to your self oh wait they are dead about 60 +/- yr. I don't give a FU*K about other country's or races or people, they all can die if I care I only care about myself. so i don't feel no pitty for nobody. live your god damn lives like it is because when you are gone nobody is gonna care about you or remember you only your family and thats about it.
19:58 April 20, 2010 by Talonx
@ Prufrock

And my point from the beginning of this thread was simply that Germany does a great job of remembering its darker past, especially as compared to any other nation on the face of this planet. I'm no statist, if anything I'm a libertarian socialist, but I'm ready to call things as they are. I would stake my life on this issue, because I've seen the positive effects, maybe it won't always be this way but it has been this way since the 1960's and they've been gettting better and better at it. Seriously, they have the 'Memorial to the Murdered Jews to Europe' right outside the Budestag in Berlin, millions of memorials all across germany and this is only the surface level, schooling in Germany includes a curiculum where the children learn about the Third Reich for longer than it existed.

The only explanation for people like Whazup is passive unchecked racism. Whazup reminds me of my grandmother in the states talking about how her black nurse wasn't as good as the white nurses. I'm really just sick of this sort of BS.
20:14 April 20, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Talonx:

I agree. Now, if you think Whazup has issues, check out the post that appears just above yours. Now there's a dude with ISSUES.
22:05 April 20, 2010 by whatzup
Racism has nothing to do with it Talonx. But if I were racist it would no doubt be the german half of me coming to the fore. The germans and the SS wrote the book on racism.

FcukOff_FM, time to start taking your meds again.
06:13 April 21, 2010 by kamioner
Every German alive today on the face of the earth is a blood thirsty anti-Semitic murderer who resents losing the war and this museum glorifying the ss proves it.
09:01 April 21, 2010 by Talonx
@ Whatzup

You've just attributed this special status you ascribe to Germans to nature, "If I were racist...the german half of me coming to the fore", therefore you're racist. Or did you mean something else?
11:40 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ kamioner:

You should lay off that crack pipe, pal. Someone might think you actually believe what you just wrote.
11:42 April 21, 2010 by ColoSlim
It is considered acceptable to most of us that a visit to a castle to learn about how people who were tortured and killed in the middle ages could be fun and entertaining. Comparatively speaking this would justify opening the museum in Wewelsburg. Practically speaking it sounds like trouble will follow as ultra right wing people show up. I would be interested in seeing their plans and counter-measures they intend to deploy.
14:07 April 21, 2010 by William Thirteen
i realize i am rather late to the party but, for those interested, Spiegel had a much better article regarding the exhibition and the intent of the curators

15:19 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ William Thirteen:

Thanks for the link to an enlightening article.
01:45 April 22, 2010 by madgerman1
I still think this shows history ,which is important. as far as speaking germani speak english as its the national language of the world,they claim. I live outside of hamburg, bad segeberg germany. not the u.s. danke!
10:31 April 22, 2010 by Talonx
@ Madgerman

Es ist nicht möglich, dass du Deutch bist oder unter 50 J.a. bist.. Ich werde überrascht, wenn du Deutsch sprechen oder schreiben kannst. Mit Rücksicht auf was du gesagt hast, es ist klar, auf Jeden Fall, dass du keine echte ahnung hast und keine echte Deutsche bist. Deine historische Wahrnehmung kriegt 'nen Affen.
23:27 April 22, 2010 by Johannes De Silentiio
My God... the morons on this post like whatzup are depressing me. The display of ignorance is staggering. The so-called "guilt" for past trangressions can be shared by the entire world. Genocide is NOT a German invention. The Jews themselves have practiced genocide since biblical times. Maybe they invented it....

I have only one more word for you whatzup.... Abfuehren!
00:31 April 23, 2010 by whatzup
* You're * depressed Johannes?? Think of how depressed the millions the SS slaughtered were. But thats not important, why not give the SS a memorial of their very own, how about Himmler's old castle? Perfect. We'll say its a museum (wink, wink). The germans never seem to learn. Who will they blame for stabbing them in the back the next time?

The germans may not have invented genocide but they perfected it and raised it to an art form during the war. Its folks like you who prove that there are still some who haven't fully absorbed the utter depths of depravity to which the nazis lead a willing nation.
01:32 April 23, 2010 by Johannes De Silentiio
Actually, whatzup, I'm quite pleased about the whole thing. Must visit it during my next trip to the Vaterland. And let's think about the millions who have been slaughtered (not by Germans) since then in this so-called "better world" we made by defeating Germany. Or how about the wonderful benefits we reaped for decades by having prevented the destruction of the Soviet Union. Let's not forget the rising dominance of the Muslims in Europe and America since then, who will make Hitler and the SS look like a bunch of pikers if given the chance. Your obvious hatred of all things German is pretty depraved itself. I wonder what it would lead to given the power to act.... What have you learned? Apparently nothing. Hatred is hatred. So before you pluck at the mote in my eye, attend to the beam in yours....
01:51 April 23, 2010 by whatzup
I don't hate anyone Johannes, I'm just realistic about what the germans tried to do (and did) when they had the chance. The whole point of this discussion is not what have I learned but what have the germans learned. Very little in some quarters it seems...
02:20 April 23, 2010 by Johannes De Silentiio
Saying millions of human beings got what they deserved smells like hatred to me. How much power do you and I have to stop injustices in this world? None. How much power do you think the ordinary German had to stop the Nazis? I'll tell you - none. Yet you call all guilty. I am German and what I learned is that my entire heritage, a heritage that goes back over 900 years was taken from me. My great grandfather was said to have said about Hitler, "that sob is going to ruin it for us all." And ruin it he did for 80 million Germans (yes, yes, others too). We ALL suffered from this madness. And we still suffer from the madness of others. I have also learned that simply by being born German I am made a pariah, inflicted with a guilt for crimes I had nothing to do with. Well, I'm not buying it. Let the dead bury the dead. It is time to move on.
03:09 April 23, 2010 by Talonx
Whazup is a troll, that or under the age of 18 or over 70. Nobody is that idiotic and irrational.
05:28 April 23, 2010 by Johannes De Silentiio
The contributions Germans have made throughout history to philosophy, science, culture and so on are immeasurable and should far outweigh the 12 short years of the Hitler regime. But they don't to many. We are all too willing these days to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Our so-called "modern age" has become quite simplistic, even juvenile. It's been 65 years this April 30th that Hitler killed himself and the Nazi era ended. And some are still screaming about it? Since then we have had years of an oppressive and brutal Stalinist regime in Russia and Eastern Europe, Pol Pot in Cambodia, genocide in Rawanda, just to mention a few. And yet still, the Germans are the boogyman of the world. Idiotic and irrational are indeed the words for it. Imbecillic is another. Delusional yet one more. The world is still a horror for millions, if not billions. And the German have had NOTHING to do with that.
12:27 April 23, 2010 by whatzup
The same back at you Talonx.
21:53 April 23, 2010 by Johnny Cash
It was unfortuneate for the Germans that the second world war was the first major war to be filmed extensively and can be readily regurgitated on the idiot box. Also the jews in hollywood who continue to churn out another nazi movie each year to keep the debate alive and the reparations flowing hasn't help the German cause either.The German taxpayers today should insist their government stops giving away the fruits of their labour to another country when they had nothing to do with WW2. I was at Wewelsburg about 15 years ago and found the place chilling and left me determined to oppose facsim wherever I encounter it like the Bush and Obama administrations. That is the way it effected me. Is that postive enough for you. I would also like to see a museum opened up for all the criminal bankers and financiers who finance war

and continue to do so. They are the biggest evil in all this
08:19 April 24, 2010 by Talonx
@ Johnny Cash, also a troll.
15:21 April 24, 2010 by whatzup
Yeah, yeah, everyone's a troll but you Talonx? Of course we all know who the real troll is.
09:48 April 25, 2010 by Talonx
Signs that a poster is a troll:

1.) Makes bland and stereotyped statments.

2.) Pretends to not know what the technical definition of a troll is (see whatzup directly above).
17:11 April 25, 2010 by whatzup
A troll is a funny looking guy who lives under a bridge. See Talonx? It fits you perfectly!
20:21 April 25, 2010 by Talonx
I just find it hard to believe that anyone could be so naturally idiotic, I apologize if you are not a troll.
21:33 April 25, 2010 by whatzup
Because you are so obviously confused Talonx I accept your apology.
08:21 April 27, 2010 by Talonx
I like that there was no push-back on the 'idiotic' comment.
14:53 April 27, 2010 by whatzup
Thats because no one can figure out what the hell you were talking about.
18:55 May 10, 2010 by Talonx
@ whatzup

It's either your age or your general ineptness showing that you don't know what a troll is in the context of the internet.
18:33 May 25, 2010 by whatzup
Sure I do. You fit the definition of a internet troll perfectly. And if I were you I'd admit to it because any other explanation of your posts would be even more embarrassing.
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