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Muslims mull mosque debate after Swiss vote

The Local · 16 Dec 2009, 17:44

Published: 16 Dec 2009 17:44 GMT+01:00

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Most people wouldn’t consider Switzerland a very trendy place, but Meho Travljanin worries the small, alpine nation’s anti-Islamic sentiments could soon become fashionable throughout much of Europe.

“My fear is that the discussion has spread from Switzerland to all of Europe,” says Travljanin, referring to the country’s controversial referendum in November banning the building of mosques with minarets.

An official at the Bosnian Cultural Centre in Berlin’s Kreuzberg district, Travljanin believes other countries including Germany could now attempt similar bans as the Swiss vote helps fan fears of a growing Islamification of Europe.

“Over time of course mosques will be built,” says Travljanin. “The fact is there are more and more Muslims in Germany and in Europe. And it is also a fact that these people are here to stay and these people are going to want their places of worship.”

Prior to the Swiss referendum, Germany was already in the midst of a debate about the nearly 200 mosques which are currently being planned. If all are built, they would double the existing number of Muslim houses of worship in the country.

Although Germany has had a sizeable, mostly Turkish, Muslim community since the sixties, the building of mosques in Germany is a relatively new phenomenon. Up until now most Muslims in Germany have prayed hidden from view in old factory buildings, basements, converted offices and garages.

“We say that one should not be afraid of a minaret,” says Ender Cetin, spokesman for the Turkish –Islamic Union. “We ask the question is it better to have a courtyard mosque where the normal citizen might be afraid to enter? Or is it better to have a familiar mosque with dome and tower?”

Cetin’s office in the Sehitlik mosque in Berlin, a four-year-old traditional Ottoman style construction complete with marble façade, dome, and twin minarets. It is located on land that has been linked to Turkey for 140 years, since the Ottomans were present in Prussia.

He sees the Swiss vote and reactions by some German politicians as putting considerable pressure on the Muslim community.

“It pushes us into the corner a bit,” says Cetin. “Of course a minaret is not necessary. We don’t need a minaret for prayer. It just shows that we have arrived.”

The mosque that has garnered much attention in Germany recently is being built in Cologne. A 2,000-capacity building with twin minarets that will reach 170 feet high, the house of worship was designed by German architect Paul Böhm, who is not Muslim. Construction on the mosque began last year, causing an outcry among locals who described the structure as too big and affront to the city’s Christian traditions. One critic went so far as to describe the mosque as a “declaration of war” culturally.

In response to the vehement opposition encountered in Europe, some Muslims in Germany are rethinking how a mosque should look.

Alen Jasarevic is a Bosnian-German architect of a critically acclaimed new mosque in the town of Penzberg in Bavaria. At first glance it doesn’t look like a mosque at all: it is modest, unassuming, disarming, modern, transparent and discreet.

The façades, which are clad in pale sandstone, give a little indication of the building’s function. But the entrance features two concrete slabs that swing out of the wall like open gates, inviting visitors into the house in German and Arabic script. Most remarkable is the minaret, a tall column illuminated from within with words in Arabic calling the faithful to prayer visually.

Story continues below…

“I want to show the society here that we can keep up, that we can be innovative, that we understand our faith as not merely something from the past, but rather something that continuously develops and which can create such buildings,” says Jasarevic.

He explains he wanted to create a building that could be accepted by the German public, something that was open to everyone, “not like an Ottoman mosque which lands like a UFO” in Germany.

Travljanin from the Bosnian cultural centre agrees innovation could be the answer to Europe’s mosque debate.

“I think that Muslims, no matter where they live in Europe, of course have to try to fit in with the architectural structure of cities,” says Travljanin. “And this is in keeping with Islam. There were no minarets in the beginning of Islam.”

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

18:51 December 16, 2009 by pepsionice
Here's the thing....by taking up the minaret discussion....they aren't talking about forbidding mosque construction. The minaret is simply a tower in front of the mosque and identifies the mosque as the "most significant" building in that town or city.

If the voting public did want to make a simple statement.....this might be the place to draw the line...while allowing full construction of mosques. The problem that some folks are noticing....is that a fair amount of peer pressure is being pressured on most all Turkish men now to attend the local Mosque....which they didn't do previously. I have yet to hear anything much publicly.....but I would suspect that a growing number of Turkish men are disliking this growing trend. They left Turkey for a reason.
19:28 December 16, 2009 by snorge
I wonder.... how many Christian churches today would be allowed to be built in the Muslim world with a huge towering cross? How about zero? Today, Muslims are a majority in the Middle East where Christianity was born. So why the big ruckus over this? Get over it!

I spent 3 years in the middle east and the only thing the minarets are and have ever been used for (besides point out where the mosque is located from anywhere in the city), is to blare annoying prayers over a speaker system so they can be heard farther away. The other use is much older but is still used today. They are used as a defensive position from which to have a high point to fire upon anyone attacking the mosque. We have seen this many times in Iraq.

I swear, Muslims the world over tend to think that they can do whatever they want to anyone without repercussion or responsibility to anyone, but no one better say or do anything against them or they will react like chickens with a fox in the henhouse. Case in point when the Danish newspaper published cartoons of Mohamed. There were riots all over Europe over this. But have you seen a muslim paper lately, it is riddled with cartoons making fun of the west.

So my thoughts on this is hell, you want a minaret? Go the hell back where you can have one. I am all for keeping those damned ugly buildings out of Europe or anywhere else in the world where they are not wanted.

So in closing, my dear Muslims, someone just put their foot down on you and guess what? It is a WHOLE country, not just a few people. So get used to it! Quit your whining and do something productive for the adoptive country you live in instead of just taking their money and doing nothing but bitching. I am always surprised when I hear you all say Germans they don't like foreigners. It's not all foreigners, just those like you who drag the system down and insist the Germans adopt you f'up ways and religion!
22:14 December 16, 2009 by Fredfeldman
I agree that the burden is on the immigrant to fit into the culture into which he has freely chosen to live. Part of that burden for muslims is to avoid rubbing their culture and their architecture in everybody else's face. The issue might not be as prominent as it might be excepting the fact that a goodly proportion of the world's muslims have little respect for western culture and advocate or condone violent opposition to it. Many middle eastern immigrants are here simply for the money and its our misfortune to have invited them in.
22:15 December 16, 2009 by Thames
Many of these bulidings are funded by Saudi Arabia where Christians or secularists are treated badly. That is unless they are there to protect them from Sadaam. In the past The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation served as a bullwork against militant Islam but those days are over. Germany is afraid to do anything because somebody might call them Nazis. It is time for Germany stop crying and do something to save European culture. Britain and France won't and Switzerland is too small.
23:17 December 16, 2009 by lordwilliams629
Snorge you said everything I was thinking and wanted to type "VERY WELL SAID". I to have been inthemiddle east, of course my time spent was in uniform, and it made me sick how much respect we had to show these people, with very little given back. Then they come to our part of the world and we are then expected to bend for their every needs. And oh don't disrespect islam you might end up dead. But hey just look the other way when they wanna disrespect christians or jews, i mean that would be insensitive in the eyes of a muslim.
01:02 December 17, 2009 by anti_towner
@Thames "Many of these bulidings are funded by Saudi Arabia" What the f..k! how possibly could you know that?!!! And how many mosque are there in Germany that you can refer them as "many"? Your reasoning is not different form those of the islamic fanatics.

"It is time for Germany stop crying and do something to save European culture." Who will lead such an honorable task, Thames? Is it so early to say "Heil Thames"!

@snorge, get over it, your serving time in ıraq is over! you won, Saddam has been dead for a long time now. You killed enough muslim which will ease your pain in rest of your life. But if you still blood thirsty you can be volunteer to go back. right !!!!
01:50 December 17, 2009 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
Here's the thing: You're guests. If in Romans, do as the Romans do. I don't have a problem with your religion or your customs. I don't have a problem with you practicing the portions of your lifestyle that are compatible with our culture, which is basically your religion. That's fine. But, this is Germany, and as long as you are our guests, please do behave as we would. So...building things that are complete out of character with our country is...just not ok. Hence, please stop. Or, we can part as friends, and you can go home. Either way, I'll respect your decision.
02:28 December 17, 2009 by CalBill
I think what's missing in much of this discussion is the recognition that Islam is not just another religion like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.. Unlike the aforementioned religions, Islam does not recognize the seperation of church and state but rather considers mosques to be places of governance and even places from which to wage war. The reaction to the Danish "Allah" cartoons by a large number of European Muslims demonstrates just how non-integrated they are concerning democracy and free speech. Therefore, having 200 more of these essentially antidemocratic/subversive meeting places in Germany sound like inviting the fox into the henhouse.
09:10 December 17, 2009 by wood artist
While I agree that there seem to be some significant differences between Islam and many other religions...sharia law for example...to me the real issue with the ban on minarets is not what it seems to be.

Within the Muslim religion, minarets are a normal part of any mosque, no different than a cross would be on the outside of a christian church or a star of David would be on a synagogue. While they might be, in some ways, more prominent, they are simply part of the whole. Is the real issue with the minaret, or is it representational of something else...something more?

To me, the correct place to deal with them is within a zoning or design code, allowing them within certain limits. If there are issues with the religion itself, then at least be adult enough to deal with them openly and up front.
10:36 December 17, 2009 by LancashireLad
As has been said, Minarets are there to be *seen* and to be imposing, just like church bell towers.

Now when you think of Switzerland, what kind of image does that conjure up? Small, neat Alpine villages? I can understand the locals there not wanting minarets sticking up and spoiling that image that has stood for however many hundreds of years.

Lets not forget, the Swiss did not ban the construction of mosques - just the minarets. The Muslim population can still build mosques and if they are devout then they *know* where they can go to worship - they don't need markers showing them where to go.

The issue has been hijacked by racists and then by the more radical factions of Islam claiming the Swiss to be racists.

I agree with wood artist that mosques should be designed within the constraints of the local laws and wishes of the general local population.
11:49 December 17, 2009 by Fredfeldman
Maybe when muslim extremeists learn respect for different cultures this won't be such a big issue.
13:06 December 17, 2009 by michael4096
These comments are very depressing...

1. Why, because some of a group are extreme, must all the group be made to suffer? I wouldn't like it if I was confused with the neo-nazis living here

2. I too have worked in Riyadh and I hate the place because of their single minded approach to religeous issues. A bit like some of the comments here

3. So what if some want to build minarets. All people living in the country should have the same rights, obey the same laws and generally be treated the same. If you want to ban minarets then ban church towers too

4. Islam is not the only religion to confuse faith and state. All do it and islam is no worse than others. I can't even wash my car on a Sunday because of this sort of stupidity. Ugandan christians want to execute homosexuals. And, lets not get on to the Jewish state...
14:41 December 17, 2009 by LancashireLad
Hi michael4096,

I agree with all your points (can't comment on Saudi - never been there).

My comment was along the "this was the real reason" lines. As a humanist I would be happy to ban all religious buldings - except that some are actually quite aesthetically pleasing cf. Hindu Temples (I lived round the corner from the one in north London), Cathedrals of various christian flavours (not including the Mersey Funnel), temples such as Angkor Wat. Can't comment on mosques or synagogues as I haven't seen many of them.
17:00 December 17, 2009 by michael4096
I love Collesea. I love many churches, mosques and other temples. I love the Limes, Hadrian's Wall and Pompeii. I love natural history museums, war museums and anthropology museums. I love architecure and, sometimes, the ideas that it represents.

"Learn from history, or repeat it." We can say 'suffering produces beauty'. We can also say that those who made others suffer tend not to be with us anymore :-)

BTW I'm a Lancashire lad too
17:27 December 17, 2009 by LancashireLad
Glad to meet a fellow Lancashire Lad.

The problem is, how long is it, how much effort does it take and how much suffering do they generate before those who make others suffer are not with us any more?
17:35 December 17, 2009 by lordwilliams629
I think you got this wrong michael4096, people in europe, canada and america, have welcomed these people from islamic countrys in with open arms. What people are now seeing is the people of islam don't want be part of our society, yet they want everything we have to offer and more. These are also people who don't accept the religions of the countrys that they are guest in, even though other cultures and religions built these countrys these people make their selfs at home in. And one thing that you can deny all you want but it's right in your face, and that is islam is at war the rest world, and if you know anything about islam you know that they are very unaccepting of any all religions. The world of islam are the ones who have to take that step that says we accept all other religions, but they won't and that is why they are at war with the rest of the non muslim world.

Michael you also say these people attack this single religion, I bet if you where to ask most of these people what they think about other world religions, most would not have one negative thing to say, and that is because it is not other world religions that are at war with the rest of the free world, or is any other religions that come into another country and demand all others step aside. And you lancashire i'm american and i've been to london, and it is my opinion that there is alot of mosques in london, in fact the biggest one in the world is in the U.K. so don't try and B.S. me.
18:16 December 17, 2009 by LancashireLad

It is "your opinion" that there a lot of mosques in London. Any idea how many exactly? What percentage of the population they might represent?

If you claim that the largest in the world is in the UK then I must ask you if you know what the Kaaba is (or more accurately "where" it is). Considering you can't get that fact right then I have to take the rest of your diatribe in the same vein.

There's only one person you are B.S.ing
18:55 December 17, 2009 by michael4096
@LancashireLad. Once upon a time, 1969, I came into land at Londonderry on a Shackleton (a glorified Lancaster bomber) after a 12 hour flight looking for Russian spy ships. The city was blazing, a horrible sight. The crew were totally silent. One group (call them 'us') was denying another group equality. Religion, the 'majority desire' and God-is-on-my-side were used by both sides as a pretext to resort to excess and violence. You ask: how long? Not long!

@lordwilliams629. I will not claim to be an 'expert' in islam or christianity, although I probably know more about both than the average muslim or christian. But, I do know many, many muslims. I have difficulty relating the people I know to statements like 'at war with the rest of the world' or 'unaccepting of other religions'. The guys I know are really rather normal. No mullah Omars, bin Ladens or Jim Jones's amongst them - boring, the lot. Good mates, though.

For the record, I never claimed that anybody singled out one religion to attack. I just generally disagree with attacking people for their religion or wanting minarets. Regardless. Myself, I disagree with almost all religions - the supernatural leaves me cold - but, I don't go around picking on people because they believe in ghosts, either.

Also for the record, I hardly know London at all and rarely visit the UK so how I can be trying to bullshit you, I don't understand.
20:43 December 17, 2009 by lordwilliams629
Lancanshire let me rephrase the mosque statement, in london the biggest mosque outside the middle east is in the works for being built in london set to be completed by 2012-2013 most refer to it as the mega mosque, if you want an address I don't know what to tell you but your point is well made. Now the opinion I have on the large amount of mosques in london is just as I said an opinion and I stand by my opinion. And as far I know you can google the fact that the U.K. has the highest number of mosques outside the middle east. Now onto your numbers question, do I know how many muslims are in the U.K.? no I don't I have hurd of numbers of close to 800 thousand and have also hurd of closer to a million. I do know that when your walking down the streets of london you sometimes have to ask yourself if your in eygpt, and when you go into any private buisness in downtown london you also notice almost everyone of them are muslim owned, my god I can keep going on.

But anyway one other thing I wanted to ask you Michael4096 is why when making your points about christans and sundays and your insult to jews, did you not mention the crimes committed by muslims such as honor killings of young girls the execution of women on football feilds, the beheading of Danny Perl, and the london train station bombings, 9/11, all of these murders and more done in the name of islam, yet you stay silent on those facts. Is the execution of homosexuals by some christians in a 3rd world african nation the best you can do.
11:35 December 18, 2009 by michael4096
@lordwilliams. Please, stop claiming things that are not true. When countering a claim that muslims are unique in mixing religion and state pointing out that the Israelis call themselves a Jewish State is both accurate and apposite. It certainly isn't an insult to anybody. However, in the context of the comment and the uniqueness question the points you make are not relevant to that issue.

I find it interesting that you consider the killing of Danny Perl in the name of islam in some way different to the killing of homosexuals in the name of christianity. I find both equally abhorrent.

It is easy for individuals to claim any atrocity in the name of their favourite religion, football team or television show. Why should anybody else uninvolved with the atrocity be penalised? The original article was about minarets which mean a lot to many law abiding residents of this country. I fail to see why they should be denied.
11:40 December 18, 2009 by LancashireLad

After I posted I then checked where the largest Mosque actually is (I assumed that the "Great Mosque" in Mecca would be it) but it turns out (currently) to be in Pakistan. I also found read that Tadjikistan is looking to build a larger one. I didn't notice anything a bout the plans for London but then I was only after teh curent state of play. I wanted to post the info immediately but the Local would not let me make a consecutive post.

My question was actually what percentage of the population in London the mosques there represent. Sorry for not making that clearer. I think you are over rating the reach of the muslims in London. I lived there myself for 5 years and my experience does not match yours. To say any private business in central London (which I assume you meant with donwtown) is muslim owned is a bit of an exaggeraction.

The crimes you mentioned are indeed performed by muslims but it is more accurate to say "in the name of islam". Beheading of women on football fields is not condoned by the Koran but by the twisted version of Islam that the Taliban use to hold people in fear.

Please don't think I am condoning any form of violence by any religion - and that is the nub of the matter - any religion.

Man is a tribal animal and it doesn't matter what the tribe is called. If we didn't have religion then these or similar atrocities would still be committed in the name of some other tribe. Religiion is just the convenient name given to the tribe and the convenient banner under which to rally the troops.

Please don't think I am condoning anything done in the name of any religion - as I've said I am a humanist. I am just trying to understand why people do this. If we can understand that then we *might* have a chance of reducing its effects but sadly I believe we will never eliminate it. It's in our nature and one way to better understand it is to accept that fact, and not to play into the hands of the fundamentalists on both sides who want to use the excuse of religion or fighting against it to control their respective populations.
14:28 December 18, 2009 by Beynch
One can only hope that the "Swiss" ban spreads further in Europe. I'm thinking espcially of the Nordic Countries. The governments there need to be taught a lesson!
16:27 December 18, 2009 by Badger1911
Snorge, you're right on spot.

I remember how the whole mohammedan world celebrated 9/11, how the people were dancing in the streets from Cairo to Kabul. Uninvolved my ass.

And yes, I refuse to call them "muslim", since "muslim" indicates a "true believer", ergo means I accept islam as the one true thing, which I clearly don't.

Keep this POS death cult off my doorstep. Or else.
22:58 December 18, 2009 by Johnny Cash
I think this debate about muslims in Germany and all of Europe is more about the fact that they are breeding like rabbits to eventually outnumber the rest of the europeans and take over countries through the democratic process. Germany would see a big decrease in the muslim population if they limited child support to 2 children and if you want more then you better be sure you can support them yourself. We live in a world where the number one pollutant is our species so let's not pay to encourage the production of more humans. Coming from an underpopulated country I think our hosts would quite enjoy their drive to their summer holidays if they halved the population of the country over the next century.I am sure they would be amazed how quickly the pollution and energy problems would all but disappear as well. Just common sense really.
08:48 December 19, 2009 by Ashley748916
It's interesting that Germany are even considering banning the building of Minarets.

I would have thought it much better for them just to keep their heads down on an issue like this and for pretty obvious reasons.

After all, in a country of mediocrity, where the middle of the road rules and everybody is fearful of upsetting everybody else why rock the boat and attract attention to oneself.
22:45 December 19, 2009 by surj
This is for Michael and Lancashire 629 and of course others too, From Muslims Quran Sura9:111" Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods,and in return has Promised them Paradise,they will fight for the cause of Allah, they will Kill and be Killed" That is what the Muslims have been doing for the last 1400 years,if not killing the Infidels then killing each other.Sura5:51" Believers,take neither Jews nor Christians for you friends and Protectors,for they are friends and Protectors of one another.Whoever of you seeks their friendship and supports them shall become one of their number.Allah does not guide the wrong doers" So you see a true Muslim can NEVER be your friend.Sura 2:193"Fight them(Infidels)until Idolatry is no more ,and Allah's religion reigns supreme" That is exactly what the muslims are doing all over the world, Switzerland is a democratic country and if they chose not to allow the minarets by referendum,then that is their choice. Despite giving things and opportunities to muslims in their host countries,(West)they are never grateful. Islam as a religion can't co-exist with other religions ,so muslims will never integrate. see www.blip.tv/file/1382254 www.thereligionofpeace.com www.faithfreedom.org
12:13 December 22, 2009 by michael4096
@surj. Yes. Lots of similar comments in the bible and other old books. Most people I know recognise that these books were written in a different time and for a different audience and so require 'interpretation' for the here and now. I think the literal interpreters (an oxymoron) of these books, like for example the christian creationists, are becoming an ever diminishing minority and resorting more and more to bluster to try and make themselves heard.

Why do you feel that you have the authority to speak against muslims with different interpretations of the Quran to yours? What makes your insight so special? Most christians now feel that their inquisition was a bad idea. Enforcing a single interpretation of 'right' was not sustainable in the long-term and just resulted in many people getting hurt. Do you think that some muslims are making the same mistake?
23:06 December 22, 2009 by snorge

Yup, we won - now for the rest of your comment for me. Your point is????
03:19 December 23, 2009 by Thames

If you read my post carefully you will see that I never personally insulted anyone. I don't believe I have the right to insult anyone. However, since you don't have any legitimate arguments you resort to profanity and personal insult. You show how little you know of German History by saying Heil Thames believing you insulted me. Heil was an ancient german salutation long before the Nazi so thanks.You try to equate me with a Nazi by your clumsy insults. This is often the practice of those who will not or can not discuss issue. Hitler was a great admirer of Islam I am not, Hitler tried to undermine the Christian Church in Europe not save it.

I don't have to answer you questions but I will.

Question 1.

@Thames "Many of these bulidings are funded by Saudi Arabia" What the f..k! how possibly could you know that?!!!

Answer:Reza F. Safa, author of Inside Islam, estimates that since 1973, the Saudi government has spent an unbelievable $87B to promote Wahhabism in the United States, Africa, Southeast Asia and Europe. According to official Saudi information, Saudi funds have been used to build and maintain over 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges, 210 Islamic Centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia and Asia.

The Kingdom has fully or partially financed Islamic Centers in Los Angeles; San Francisco; Fresno; Chicago; New York; Washington; Tucson; Raleigh, N.C. and Toledo, Ohio as well as in Austria, Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia, Turkey, and even in some Muslim countries such as Morocco, Indonesia, Malaysia and Djibuti.

Question 2. And how many mosque are there in Germany that you can refer them as "many"?


According to Deutsche Welle

there are 1,200 institutions used as mosques in Germany,

The growth in the construction of mosques over the past two decades has made Germany one of the "best-equipped" countries in Europe for Islamic worship, Abdullah said

Personally I feel one Mosque is too many. However, an individual should not be denied worship. So I propose this for every Christian Church or Jewish House of Worship allowed in Arabia the German government can allow one Mosque.

An article from Time 2008 saysThe Vatican has confirmed that it is negotiating for permission to build the first church in Saudi Arabia. So I quess Germany should allow one Mosque.
13:02 December 23, 2009 by Mick Dee
Hey michael 4096,I love Collesea. I love many churches, mosques and other temples. I love the Limes, Hadrian's Wall and Pompeii. I love natural history museums, war museums and anthropology museums. I love architecure and, sometimes, the ideas that it represents.

I just dont like the Muslims and their arrogant behavior in this matter! I mean if the swiss dont want minarets why should they tollerate'em?
14:55 December 23, 2009 by michael4096
hi Mick. The issue is whether Gemany should do the same as Switzerland.

Some muslims are arrogant. Undenyable. But is that a good reason for denying all muslims rights enjoyed by non-muslims? One lesson we should have taken from history is that legislating against a minority usually ends in tears.

And, you'll find an awful lot of non-muslim arrogance in the comments above.
00:50 December 24, 2009 by Mick Dee
G'day Michael,

There is no issue mate, its not about Germany or Sitzerland! Its about two cultures, respect and so much more. The Muslims have their pride, the Christians too. Has any one noticed what is happening world wide? Half of the Muslim comunity is @ war, fighting against the western world. What do you expect mate, us Germans to exept their will in this matter? By the way, who is legislating against a minority? The Germans? What do you mean" One lesson we should have taken from history....." Wir sind Wir, and we can be proud of our possision in the modern western world!! And again, you dont need minarets to pray to your God!!
13:29 December 24, 2009 by michael4096

If you allow churches to have towers but forbid mosques to have minarets then you are legislating against a minority.

Whenever laws select items pertaining to only one group, it becomes a fine line between protecting society and discrimination. The French justify banning burquas because society doesn't function as well when they are used. (I'm not agreeing, just reiterating their logic.) It is difficult to find similar arguments against minarets.

I wasn't thinking of Germany when I mentioned lessons from history. Most countries have examples of making the discrimination mistake - I have already given Northern Ireland as a good recent example.

As far as muslims @ war with the west, half of them seem to be too busy fighting each other to bother about the west. Which is also dangerous. All those kids brought up in constant conflict is creating a timebomb. My feeling is that giving them an alternative to the agressive mullahs is more likely to calm things than practicing discrimination and uniting them against us.
14:37 December 25, 2009 by Hagen
In the Bible it says you do not need a Church to worship, quote.:- " when two or three are gathered together in my name" !

Similarly, Islam never mentioned having Minarets on Mosques and in some Islamic Countrys, there are no minarets on Mosques because the locals don't need them.

Therefore, there is no right nor necessity for Muslims resident in Europe to require Minarets to be built on their Mosques, in fact they should be grateful that they are allowed to have their Mosques in the first place.

I worked in the middle east, there are no Churches !, if there used to be Churches then they are now converted to Mosques because churches are discouraged.
14:31 December 30, 2009 by ozdemiron
Whenever I follow up the topics related to immigrants, Islam (ic) issues, Turks, etc., I see the same shity discussions all the time. There`s a group of people who refuse anything related with these topics, never mind them. There`s a group of people who think that they have logical explanations with their words `Islamic people, people of Islam, Islam groups, Islamic Turks, etc`, but obviously they know nothing outside their little German villages.

Guys, first of all, all these words sound so funny : Islam world, Christian countries, etc. Try to discuss the right topics with right words. Because all these terms and frames that you are using are so Bildy. (your lovely newspaper group)

Building minarets, construction of 2 more mosques are not the main topic. First of all, especially, as Germany, you have to see that you have an increasing number of immigrants and from the beginning of post war Industrial Revolution you needed these guys. And it`s none of your business to take them out. Maybe you thought they were `Gastarbeiters`, but this was your lack of immigration policy.

Now, not the time to take these guys out or curse on their traditions, religions or trying to germanize them. It doesnt work, you can not expect any other person to live like that. What you can do is, work on the adaptation of these immigrants.

I have lived in Germany for 1 year, in the Bavarian Munich, working on some projects and during this 1 year I have experienced what is really going on about this immigrant issues. It`s two side effort to generate a fair German citizenship for everyone. Noone has the right to banish another one. The people did this on 40s and we know the results. So stop this facist conversations, idiot words and try to find real solutions.
19:25 January 6, 2010 by lordwilliams629
Giving these people the right to put up a mosque is like allowing the ku klux klan put up a whites only church. This is because the muslim world acts just like the ku klux klan, in that they exclude all other religions in their native lands

they are also very exclusive in their own communitys when they move to the west, they are and always have been very bigoted and to deny this is closing ones eyes to hard facts, oh and lets not forget the honor killings that are also part of the culture to this religion. I know those in the muslim and nonmuslim community know where i'm coming from, and know i'm telling the truth.
10:22 January 7, 2010 by ozdemiron
@lordwilliams629, I feel really sorry, through this time you have learned quite wrongly and that all this media, stereotypes influenced you also wrongly and tendentiously.

Would like to talk to you personally what your fears and drawbacks are. Do not let yourself in today`s religion & culture & country based main stream
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