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US fed up with Germany's war effort, files show
Photo: DPA

US fed up with Germany's war effort, files show

Published: 26 Jul 2010 16:09 GMT+02:00
Updated: 26 Jul 2010 16:09 GMT+02:00

According to news magazine Der Spiegel which, along with US paper The New York Times and British daily The Guardian, has examined the documents, the files reveal “a German military that stumbled into the (Afghan) conflict with great naiveté.”

The Bundeswehr believed that the northern provinces where its soldiers were stationed would remain more peaceful than other parts of the country, the magazine reported.

On Monday Defence Ministry spokesman Christian Dienst played down the impression given by some of the documents that Washington was frustrated by the performance of Germany's 4,600 troops in northern Afghanistan.

"Our co-operation with our American allies is excellent and we complement each other with mutual respect," Dienst said. "This co-operation has further improved noticeably in recent months.”

The government condemned Wikileaks’ release of the documents and vowed to carefully scrutinise them to see if they endangered Germany’s security interests.

"Obtaining and releasing documents, some of them secret, on such a scale is a highly questionable practice since it could affect the national security of NATO allies and the whole NATO mission," Dienst said.

"We are examining the countless documents to see if our security interests could also be affected.''

At the same time, Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said that claims in the documents that Iran and Pakistan were giving secret aid to the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan should be carefully examined.

"We have to examine what new information there could be" within the thousands of secret files, Westerwelle said on the sidelines of talks with his EU counterparts.

Westerwelle said the documents, which also contain claims of concealed civilian casualties, had given him "comfort in my position, which consisted of never talking up the situation in Afghanistan, which is exceptionally serious."

Germany currently has 4,400 troops there. Some 92,000 documents dating back to 2004 documented the deaths of innocent civilians, how Pakistan's spy agency allowed its agents to meet with the Taliban and how Iran secretly furnished it with money, arms and training.

The leaks prompted a furious reaction from the White House, saying they put the lives of soldiers at risk. The documents also reveal details of clandestine US Special Forces activity in German-controlled parts of Afghanistan.

Omid Nouripour, the security spokesman for the environmentalist Greens, told Der Spiegel: “On our reading of the US documents, it is disturbing how little the federal government has informed the parliament about the activities of American special forces in German areas. We demand an immediate explanation from the federal government as to what they know about the missions. We will push with all force for answers.”

AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

17:45 July 26, 2010 by whatzup
Its hilarious how Germany's Greens are protesting US special forces activity. Its activity that the europeans should be engaging in themselves. Seems the germans and the rest of europe are nostalgic for the old days when they sat on their behinds while the US protected them from the Russians. Now there is danger from the middle east and europe remember how to defend itself.
17:55 July 26, 2010 by romber58
If Westerwelle says that"We have to examine what new information there may be(in these documents)"...What does that tell us about his sources of information as head of Germany,s foreign office?

He is either being disingeneous or he really was not made party to this information which would say a lot about Germany,s status vis a vie the USA and a lot about the German Intelligence Services.
23:43 July 26, 2010 by mikecowler
Maybe a few German Embassies blown up abroad? A U bahn bomb attack? An ICE train bomb, or a jet slammed into the Reichtag, THESE ARE THE REASONS what does Germany need to commit proper armed forces REALITY on German soil? Wake up and smell the blood spilt by your fellow European neighbours?
01:18 July 27, 2010 by OMFG
mikecowler, wake up!

Did you ever ask yourself, why it is that blown-up embassies, subway bomb attacks, or jets slammed into buildings are normally (with the UK as an explainable exception) US embassies, US subways, US buildings?

No, you didn't - you obviously did not yet ask yourself this question.

I'm by no means trying to excuse these horrible acts of terrorism! But there is a kind of "pattern", and when you have collected some experience at traveling to the US as a non-US citizen and went through immigrations a few times, including "Secondary Inspection", then you might understand what I mean by that...

And yes, whatzup, we sat on our behinds while the US protected us from the Russians - but don't think the US did that out of pure charity. And by the way, you are talking about 20 and more years ago - and we Germans all had already health insurance coverage at that time...
01:28 July 27, 2010 by Jibzy
@OMFG.. i'm gonna say ROLF at the way you ended your post. That was a smackdown indeed.

whatzup: Dear arrogant american. The world will not fight your wars. These wars are the result of the mess YOU made..i.e. carpet bombing half the world, supporting dictatorships and terrorists where it works for you, hypocrisy with human rights etc. The list is endless. Did you even look at your Military budget? Does that go into FEEDING people ?? nahh..that goes into killing people or at least keeping them from waking up.

Either stop being a bully to the world..or stop crying for help cuz we aint your slaves.
03:47 July 27, 2010 by mikecowler
@ omfg try experience of serving in the British Army i Afghanistan where over 340 uk soldiers lives have been lost since the conflict has began, try having your limbs blown off and blinded...then sit back and listen to idiots like you blame everything on everyone else from your holiday ventures to America..

47 German soldiers have sadly lost their lives since conflict began..4,000 German troops behind the front line is laughable...

Funny how after a World War 2 the west germans were begging for US assistance...a the car industry as well as other industry was all helped put back on track....which is what they are trying to do in Afghanistan as well as try to settle War lord drugs disputes and terrorism...Big Industrial Germany with absolutly no clue or commitment in foreign affairs!
03:57 July 27, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Germany has no business in Afghanistan. Neither does America. Maybe the leakage of these documents will help to shift public sentiment and understanding to forge a new political will to end this unsupportable military misadventure.
04:39 July 27, 2010 by Talonx
Lives lost in these conflicts were lost for nothing at best and for flawed ideas at worst. There is nothing here to be proud of. I've lost friends in this war and I don't see how it's possible to lie and say, 'they died serving their country,' nothing could be further from the truth.

Germany needs to pull itself together and get out of the conflicts, it's gone on to define itself, since 1945, as a non-waring nation. That reputation is in jeopardy if the war goes on.

@mikecowler

Germans did not beg, it was simply seen as a necessity given the degree to which the U.S. govt. had helped to mess things up following WWI.
05:54 July 27, 2010 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
In brief points:

1) Westerwelle is an idiot.

2) I've lost friends in this war, too, and while that makes me very sad, they did die serving their country because they were ordered to this.

3) 'Non-waring nation' doesn't preclude Germany from being a nation that engages in strong foreign policy, which we have singularly failed to do. Nobody *wants* to go to war, but sometimes, people do get screwed on the international stage, and it takes sharp teeth, and a big stick, and a credible threat to get them to treat you fairly again.

4) The US is completely psychotic and overly reactionary about it's foreign policy. Let's not even compare them in our discussion of what Germany should do. Afghanistan was and is a just war; the enemy openly identified itself with the Taliban, and the Taliban were proud of 9/11. That is not even up for debate. Iraq, however, was sheer and utter stupidity. Thanks for making Iran a regional superpower, you dolts. Listen to the few, very few, smart people at the CIA next time, and stop listening to the warmongering defense complex morons that occupy 80% of the rest of those offices.

The point I am trying to make is, that when discussing these things, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - and NEVER compare yourself to the US, because they are all insane.
09:05 July 27, 2010 by SDogood
A few more brief points:

1) We are not all idiots thank you very much. However, our last presidential election doesn't go along way with trying to proving that point...

2) European Nations have ended up relying on the US to rescue them in the past and it is in all of our best interests to insure that people/ governments bent on fascism or dictatorial rule do not harm the freedom we share and enjoy.

3) The war on Terrorism is not a US war and YES, despite what you may wish to believe, Iraq is part of that war. Al Qaeda was practically destroyed in Iraq until the US media got involved; much like Viet Nam. Germany is one of the greatest allies the US has. Understand why the US was frustrated...maybe it was because of your former Chancellor was in bed with a dictator who's kids would shove people into large shredders for kicks. We all know Iraq had WMD's...ask the 100,000+ Kurds and Iranians Saddam gassed; if you could. The question that SHOULD be asked is, "Where did they all go, and where/ when will they turn up?"

4) The US is far from being a bully. What people fail to realize is what Islamic-fascism truly is. Germany out of any country should understand what these people are about and why they need to be stopped. The US staying neutral worked so well for Europe twice in the 1900's, didn't it? You would think that people/ Nations would have learned from our mistakes. Does Germany think they are immune from the Islamic assault? If so, you do not know the enemy we are all facing.
10:54 July 27, 2010 by mikecowler
If your not all idiots it must be ignorance to world security...and as long as terrorists are not blowing up Germany, Germans dont care...

You must think what was in Afghanistan before the Americans went there? Both British, and Russians have left this country in a total mess...the latter being with secret arms support firstly by the Americans to the Taliban and now they are supported by the Iranians...There best export was officially drugs, with open Al Queda training camps, pepareing men women and children to come to the west and carry out their Jihad against us infadels...

I,m not American but thank god they are their now and so are the British in front line duty..Its these servicemen that are helping to make the world safer...The last 2 comments above me says it all...

While the German coallition Goverment sits in its Reichtag counting all the money its saved by only sending a few troops to Iraq, and some of its nationals pour scorn over America in the saftey of their German cities, one wonders why England should join the Euro and also why England quickly put to bed an idea made up in Brussels of a counter terrorist EU force, the reason is far better to share a bed with one government in the USA as opposed to EU countries that sit like osteriches and bury their heads in the sand when there is conflict outside their own country that could affect themselves in the end...

I rest my case..
13:20 July 27, 2010 by whatzup
Prufrock2010, you must be either out of your mind or making a great effort to fool yourself. Do you really think that if the US and Germany exit the middle east the terror attacks on western civilization will cease? That kind of silliness is like expecting the mafia to be content with what it already has. The nature of the beast is that it always wants more and leaving Afghanistan and Iraq to the monster would be to cede safe haven and a geometrical increase in resources to a nightmare that wants to have us all for dinner. Nato countries find it hard to reach a firm consensus on much but they do all agree on that. So stop with your inane patter on something you obviously know nothing about.

Our wars Jibsy?? The terrorist jihad hates you at least as much as it does the US, ie. London, Madrid, Danish newspaper cartoon free speech issue etc. etc. etc. Without the US with its shoulder to the wheel these extremist islamist folks would be all over you in a new york minute. So stop your whining and thank God, any God you choose, that America (and Germany) are there to help keep the bad guys off your neck.

OMFG, the reason why you could afford health coverage here for so long was that the USA was footing most of the defense bill. Now that America's resources are being stretched and overburdened lets watch how quickly your health costs continue to rise. Blink your eyes twice and you'll find the famous German welfare state has all but completely disappeared. Once they realize what's happened your countrymen will appreciate the US presence as the golden era of the good old days.
14:39 July 27, 2010 by Talonx
@ Grenadier

When I say they didn't die for their country I mean that they bled for nothing, for no great ideals, for no good reason. Unless corporate greed is one of those ideals or reasons.

As for Afghanistan, we were always the aggressor there, the Taliban and Al Queda exist because of U.S. and Russian intervention in the region. We screwed up that part of the world from the get-go. Just wars are a fiction. No murder is just. And protection never means being the first to pull a gun on someone.

This war was not fought for justice, that may be the civilian reason, but it isn't the leaderships.

@Cowler

I agree with most of that, except I don't see how more interventionism is going to make the situation anymore stabile, the only thing that can be done is back-up to whatever democratic govt. is there now. This means no non-native missions.

@SDogood

Where did the gas come from? The U.S. and they knew what it was being used for.

@Whatzup

As always your history is out of whack, Germany's current healthcare scheme has remained essentially unchanged (aside from elaboration and extensive extension), since 1871. It has nothing to do with the U.S.
15:02 July 27, 2010 by OMFG
How naive can someone be???

@whatzup: "Do you really think that if the US and Germany exit the middle east the terror attacks on western civilization will cease?" - And YOU, whatzup, did you really think at first place, that invading Afghanistan and Iraq with military forces would STOP or even REDUCE the terror attacks?

@mikecowler: "Its these servicemen that are helping to make the world safer..." - If it wasn't so sad, I would really laugh my ass off about that one.
15:22 July 27, 2010 by whatzup
@ Talonx: The cracks are showing in the german healthcare system and its not only the patients who are noticing. Medical and healthcare professionals also say conditions are worsening. Why? Its all about money, money that would have had to have been spent on a huge defense had not the US been around. So now that its not beginning in 2004 we saw the introduction of the quarterly 10 euros fee to see a GP. The came the charges for non prescription drugs and then the end to fee treatments such as spa visits. Now many believe that the only way to fix the system to to expose it to market forces. In the next few years as costs rise the health care system will continue to deteriorate and in my opinion will cease to exist in a generation. As I said there was a golden age in europe that coincided with a strong US presence. Just a coincidence? Of course not.

@OMFG: "did you really think at first place, that invading Afghanistan and Iraq with military forces would STOP or even REDUCE the terror attacks?" Yes. It already has.
15:29 July 27, 2010 by OMFG
Dream on.........
17:36 July 27, 2010 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
The basic problem here is still that north america thinks in years, europe thinks in decades, and the east thinks in centuries.

@whatzup

The invasion of Afghanistan hindered Al-Queda. No question about that. Unfortunately, Iraq had absolutely no relationship to Al-Queda, and is mostly composed of a completely different branch of Islam. So, those folks aren't your enemies in a global sense.

However; the invasion of Iraq did firmly put the Shi'ites in Iraq in the Iranian camp, and has significantly disgruntled Iraq Sunnis into being more aligned with the former. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, by invading Iraq, a nation which did not have an effective foreign intelligence operatus, any advanced armed forces to speak of, or weapons of mass destruction, you've made Iran the predominant power in the region - and they, unlike the Sunnis originally, do hate you on matters of principle. Good job on that. This was actually the reason that the CIA recommended *not* taking down Hussein after the first Gulf War, but you can only throw so much fabricated evidence at reason before it buckles.

@SDogood

Never called you idiots. Called a few of you dolts, called your foreign policy insane, and scolded you for giving Iran more power than it's due.

@Talonx

History aside, you can't tolerate another nation smashing planes into your buildings. That is equal to suicide on the world stage. I understand your moral objections, and I might even agree, but that's just not how the world works. You'll have to learn to live with it, I'm afraid.

@Whatzup

If you want to be strictly technical about it, if Germany hadn't caused over 100 million casualties, of which 24 million were deaths, to the Soviet Union during WW2, you'd be speaking Russian, by the way. You're welcome. America continually overestimates it's own worth in matters like that. Yes, your help was important sometimes, but Reagan and his ICBMs didn't end the Cold War, because nobody was ever interested in a nuclear war. What did stop the cold war was the dozens of millions of standing men-at-arms fielded by Germany, France, Italy, and England, in no particular order, by making war simply too costly to be profitable. And by the way, there is no substantive difference in our health care now, or when we had 17 million reserves-at-arms. So, no, defense spending isn't the difference - the priorities of the average man are.
18:31 July 27, 2010 by michael4096
@Grenadier - nice summary, but I disagree on a couple of points.

It wasn't a nation that smashed planes into buildings but a group of fanatics that would probably fit into a langley meeting room. Removing their support by the taliban in 2002 was justified, but that is done now and the job should be to either remove the fanatics completely or ensure they get no safe haven elsewhere. Chasing the taliban around afganistan is a rathole with a downside - while the coalition continue to use disproportionate tactics with consequential innocent casualties, they are driving otherwise moderates into the fanatic camp.

I'm not completely convinced of your cold-war argument - I'm not sure that anyone was really interested in a ground war either. Some on both sides ramped up the temperature in order to increase investment in their areas - military, security and industrial. Proxy wars suited both sides. What did stop the cold war was that one side went bankrupt before the other - which is what you would expect in a spiraling arms race.
19:20 July 27, 2010 by sorochin
Lots of stupid people out there. If the US isn't happy with Germany's effort, then let Germany stop making any effort and let the US go it alone, which is its basic attitude anyway. The idea that the US is doing all the heavy lifting to protect everyone else is pure nonsense and others shouldn't feed the delusion.
21:15 July 27, 2010 by DOZ
I can see the American Border from my Balcony, and I can assure you that if Germany had taken a tougher stand in Aftganistan, both Canadians and Americans would be "Chanting", beware Germany is re-arming.
23:04 July 27, 2010 by wxman
OMFG said, "we Germans all had already health insurance coverage at that time..." Well duh, of course! You didn't have the massive expense of self defense to "burden" you.
23:55 July 27, 2010 by whatzup
Of course you have that backwards Grenadier, if the US hadn't entered the war and stayed the course on the continent ever since VE day the europeans would be speaking Russian now. But everyone knows that. You're welcome.
03:58 July 28, 2010 by Talonx
@ Whatzup and Wxman

Germany currently manages to spend thousands less per person on health care each year. They have a pretty efficient system, definately more sustainable than anything existing in the U.S.

Additionally, the reason Europe doesn't speak Russian has nothing to do with the facts on the ground in WWII or even right at the end. In fact, Stalin was referred to as Uncle Joe in the U.S. and U.K.. This all Changed in 1949 of course, but that was four years later.

Learn yourselves some history before speaking out your #ss.

@ Grenadier

Afghanistan didn't smash planes into buildings in the U.S.
04:04 July 28, 2010 by Bishopbayern
Maybe europe is fed up with america! and all their stupid wars.....iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. If America has all the answers let them sort it out themselves.
09:57 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
They are your "stupid wars" too Bishopbayern and it seems you're too stupid to know it.
10:31 July 28, 2010 by michael4096
@whatzup - are you a comic fan? Have you noticed that every super-hero must have a super-villain?

The us has created a super-hero with more fire-power than the rest of the world put together. But, where is our über-baddie? Well the ussr fit the bill nicely for a while, but its gone quiet now so we must create a new one and along comes al qaeda bang on schedule - we didn't invent it, but we can milk it for all its worth

the number of fanatics pre-afganistan and iraq was a few hundreds, now it is orders of magnitude more and growing - soon, we'll have a real villain!

9/11 killed nearly 3000 people - in afganistan and iraq the total is a half million and rising - tell me again who the super-goodie is?
10:57 July 28, 2010 by SDogood
@ Talonx

Where did the gas come from? The U.S. and they knew what it was being used for.

Well, actually the majority came from Germany, France, Italy, and the Soviet Union if you must know. The US sent specimens that were to be in such low quality that they were not supposed to be able to be weaponized; rather they were to be used for vaccines.

@Grenadier

Never called you idiots. Called a few of you dolts, called your foreign policy insane, and scolded you for giving Iran more power than it's due.

You're correct, actually you said, " NEVER compare yourself to the US, because they are all insane." Perhaps you intended to refer to policies. Either way...I think you may actually not be giving Iran it's proper due. Facts are that the country is controlled by Islamic Fascists who have openly stated their intent to destroy Israel the minute they get their hands on a nuke.

Afghanistan did NOT smash planes into the US...however, their controlling government did; in so much as the Talaban supports Al Qaeda. People must understand that not only with the leadership in Iran, but the radical Islamist means to destroy all of us. It is their belief that if you do not convert to Islam, you will "have alternating limbs cut from your body."

If you think that national borders will shield you, you are sorely mistaken; they call this Dar al-harb and intend on creating a world of Dar al-Islam. The radical Islamist believes that the end of the world with begin wtih a great fireball...well, what better way to create that than setting off a nuke in Israel? This will bring about their version of Revelations. And of course, to die as a Shahid (Nazi's call this: blutzeuge) is the holiest of duties. As when you blow yourself up, you come as close to Allah as you ever will. That's the enemy we ALL face...even peaceful Muslims.

To the point of the article, we must all remember that we are having to take the word of Wikileaks. The thousands of pages have yet to be sifted through so be cautious on your assumptions. Most of what was released are field reports and this may have come from a soldier having a bad day or who holds a grudge. At this point no one knows for certain. What we do know is that the citizens and citizen soldiers of this Nation are greatful for the ally we have in Germany.
12:11 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
You're an ingrate Talonx. The reason the Russians didn't keep going in their push westward at the end of the war was because the US and the British were in their way. Uncle Joe signaled the ambitions he had in europe with the agreement he made with Hitler to divide up Poland at the beginning of the war. You can thank the Americans that he didn't get the rest of the continent. The Russians didn't stop advancing on the Ruhr because they were nice guys.

For michael4096: Theres no super villain, just a lot of degenerate slobs running around with their own agendas, ie. warlords, drug smugglers, religious fanatics, etc. that sometimes form common cause. And that makes them dangerous. And don't blame the US for the vast majority of folks killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Its the creepy insurgents and and venial factions that do most of the killing. As most unbiased observers realize its America and its allies that are trying to hold the place together. So thats right, the US is the surper-goodie. Not perfect by any means but the goodie nevertheless.
13:04 July 28, 2010 by michael4096
@whatzup - glad you agree that it isn't a big military problem and so its strange that you still advocate a big military solution

As far as responsibility for the killing, it doesn't matter who you or I pin the blame on, the point is that those that are left believe that if it hadn't been for heavy handed military decisions their loved ones would be alive and their homeland/religion wouldn't be under threat

However, you miss the point: big military -> big reaction -> bigger military for response -> lots of lovely contracts, porc and all the other things that goes into creating super-heros
13:16 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
Of course the military is part of the solution, who you gonna send, some NYC policemen? The military does things in a bigger way because it follows the philosophy articulated by General Colin Powell, that of overwhelming force as the best way to insure victory and reduce casualties. They quite rightly use all their resources in protecting their soldiers.

The fact is the world IS getting smaller and insurgents who try to strangle democracy and human rights take upon themselves the risk that someone is going to come down on them with a heavy hammer for it.
13:50 July 28, 2010 by Prufrock2010
whatzup --

Yes, I'm out of my mind and I know nothing about what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't know that the Iraqi war was predicated 100 percent on falsehoods concocted by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the neocons controlling American foreign policy. I don't know that the Director of Central Intelligence, Leon Panetta, has testified before congress that there are fewer than 100 al Qaeda currently in Afghanistan. I don't know that there are approximately 100,000 American troops, and roughly the same number of mercenaries, in Afghanistan to kill those few al Qaeda remnants. I don't know that somehow the war against al Qaeda somehow morphed into a war against the Taliban while we were distracted. I don't know that there were no al Qaeda in Iraq until the US invaded, and I certainly don't know that Pakistan's intelligence service is openly supportive of the Taliban in a campaign to exercise hegemony over Afghanistan. Nor do I know that al Qaeda is openly operating from Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Sudan, Indonesia and innumerable other safe havens while the fiction of fighting them in Afghanistan has yielded nothing but loss of innocent lives and vast treasure. I don't know that the Karzai regime is among the most corrupt on the planet and that billions of US taxpayer dollars spent in Afghanistan are being siphoned off to support tribal leaders and drug lords who are buying villas in Kuwait while flooding the market with heroin and opium. I don't know that no country in history has ever successfully waged a war in Afghanistan. I don't know that the American economy is choking from the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan courtesy of Bush and Co., creating a budget deficit that my grandchildren will be saddled with. Like you, I don't know any of those facts. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
13:59 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
Wow, you really don't have a clue do you Prufrock. Find someone who can see the forest for the trees and then get back to us.
14:16 July 28, 2010 by Prufrock2010
whatzup --

You weren't around during the Vietnam war, were you? Maybe you should read a book or two. Or better yet, go over to Afghanistan and kill a few people to make the world safe for American-style democracy and then get back to us.
16:44 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
Baby, not only was I around I was in it so pardon me if I have next to no patience with little turds who read a few books and then mouth off like they know what its all about. If American-style democracy didn't exist you'd be too busy keeping your head down to get back to. Envy is a very human failing Prufrock and envy of the US and the role it plays in world affairs is extremely common but don't let it ruin your life.
18:28 July 28, 2010 by michael4096
"..envy of the US and the role it plays in world affairs is extremely common.."

- state run execution of anyone you don't like without judicial oversight

- state run vigilantes provided with advanced weaponry

- imprisonment and torture without any evidence a crime has even been commited

- presidential pardons for mass murderers

- creation and support of corrupt regimes

- manufacture of evidence to create public support for war

are you sure that "envy" is the correct word?
18:57 July 28, 2010 by whatzup
As Salman Rushdie told us, the people that foisted 9/11 on the world were people that desperately wanted a green card. Being the world's policeman has its downside too.
19:17 July 28, 2010 by Prufrock2010
whatzup --

Your crude ad hominem attacks betray your dearth of knowledge. However, as you seem to be the American jingoist-in-chief around here, why don't you try to make a compelling argument that the war in Afghanistan is justifiable and winnable? Just one. Hundreds of millions of people in the US, Europe and around the world believe otherwise. How about indulging us with your military and geo-political expertise? We're waiting with baited breath.
20:08 July 28, 2010 by OMFG
Guys - we didn't discuss the excellent US American school system, yet! How could we miss this point...

whatzup - how was it possible that you never went to high-school? Is this something that happens frequently in the US? Just asking...
00:25 July 29, 2010 by whatzup
Hi OMFG - Unfortunately too many kids don't finish high school. That said I'm sure my doctoral thesis beats your doctoral thesis jerkoff.

Prufrock, you'd better pray that the war is winnable, crude tho you think the folks are who are fighting it for you. Unless of course you like the idea of prostrating yourself 3 times a day while facing the east under duress. Doesn't it penetrate your thick noggin that the world will do * whatever * it takes to pacify the middle east no matter what it says for consumption to millions of gullible folks like yourself who are not yet aware of the possible extent of the required resource commitments? Its life and death on the scale of opposing civilizations and Afghanistan is a cancer that has to be excised before the islamic beasts of burden around here discover that respect is only an insurrection away.

People in power know this stuff intuitively but it has eluded you. So keep on blowing smoke about things that you are not cognizant and I'll pray that folks like yourself and my family don't have to pay a price of these kinds of idiotic distractions.

I'm getting bored. If you still can't understand this after I've laid it out for you then just go on without me and pretend you have it right. Tschüss
00:50 July 29, 2010 by Prufrock2010
whatzup --

The only thing you've "laid out" is that your purported doctoral thesis definitely wasn't in political science, history or English.

I invited you to present a cogent argument to support your belief that the war in Afghanistan is justifiable and winnable. Obviously you cannot do that. Keep waving that American flag like a mindless cretin and revel in your snarky self-delusion. You have nothing of substance to contribute to this discussion, merely a worthless jingoistic tautology. "Whatzup" is an appropriate handle for someone as clueless as you repeatedly demonstrate yourself to be.
03:22 July 29, 2010 by Bishopbayern
whatzup.....time to wise up. America is an ailing superpower, deal with it. Look at the state the country is in and Obama cant fix it. Europe has learned to live in peace and with the rest of the world. We won't be pushed around by the usa anymore. Fight your own oil wars and leave us out of it.
03:47 July 29, 2010 by whatzup
Well thats the pot calling the kettle black Prufrock. I would call you about as clueless as they come as you've so ably manifested by your tortured prose, bizarre logic and exquisitely politically correct opinions. I'm sorry to say that you write like a pedantic english student and think like a freshman with the inevitable result. Maybe you could try some higher education in the USA. I don't think they'd have you though, the better schools have stiff entrance requirements.
05:23 July 29, 2010 by Eagle1
Awaken, Germany. Awaken.

Also, get yourself a defense minister who doesn't dress like a gay fashion designer. It sends the wrong message.
09:09 July 29, 2010 by OMFG
Hi whatzup - is yours one of those doctoral thesises that one gets kind of automatically if they're good at american football? Just because the university needs the money?

And, "...some higher education in the USA" - education on WHAT? What kind of education would the USA be able to give?

Hey Eagle1 - in Germany I don't think potential ministers are supposed to show their wardrobes prior to get nominated. It might be like that in the US, I don't know... Would explain, though, how someone like George W. Bush could become your President even TWICE, DESPITE of his political "skills"! I mean, yes, he did dress nicely...
09:54 July 29, 2010 by michael4096
"America is an ailing superpower.."

I prefer to think of america as a teenager trying to come to grips with developing the size and body of a the largest of adults. Everytime it turns it knocks something over. Major confusion between 'might' and 'right'. Absolutely confident that it can do anything it wants but unsure what that is.

And, always complaining that nobody understands or loves them.
10:57 July 29, 2010 by gryphonberlin
as far as i understand it, the german BUNDESWEHR is not allowed, under nato and u.n. rules, to act as an army in any war situation ( because of 2 world wars) they are only allowed to be a support and infrastructure mechanism.

the people who had the greatest influence on these 'rules' were the u.s.a - britain russia, and i believe the jewish world community..as isral had not yet exhisted when the rules were drawn up...then wider accepted.

gemany does as much as it is allowed. and sorry, to not inform all players on one side what is mostly happening is always a bad strategy.
14:09 July 29, 2010 by whatzup
Here's a very interesting link to presentation by Pat Condell about the propaganda side of the war in the USA. Its very much worth a listen.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
15:58 July 29, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I'm still waiting for anyone to present a credible argument to support the thesis that the war in Afghanistan is justifiable and winnable -- or even a reasonably intelligent strategy. I suspect hell will freeze over before such a case is made.

The Wikileaks documents provide us with information that the combatant governments have known all along but have concealed from us. The war is an untenable and ill-begotten disaster.

For another comment on this subject, I recommend the following:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,708850,00.html

To the swaggering doofus elements around here who think the war is such a great idea, I suggest that you get your asses over there and put your money where your mouths are.
18:53 July 29, 2010 by michael4096
@whatup - well, I listened, even 'til the end, but I totally fail to see the connection with anything here - BUT, as an good illustration of propaganda in action, for once, I agree with you

the story so far: a group of muslims want to build a memorial (mosque, something, it's not clear) on ground zero and our pattie thinks this is, like, christians building a church on the site failed heathen resistance which is, of course, an indication how all americans must now resist the ultimate evil: (well, that's also unclear, liberals, maybe, whatever, people who THINK OTHER TH'N WOT EYE DOO) Yer, the accent embarasses me

So, muslims - thats all x billion of you, not the 20 or so in any way connected with 9/11 - you are not allowed to join in our grief. (Yes, I know, muslims died also but we must neglect them to keep this 'managable'.) and, even suggesting that you build anything on ground zero (remember, collective guilt 'r us) , proves that you are, at best gloating, and, at worst, really gloating.

So, all you americans, you must raise your communal voice, and stop this,, this.. this, whatever it is.. that threatens to destroy.. whatever it is.. that we hold most sacred and.. (to be honest, I forgot the rest)

Adolf would be proud

BTW Most christian churches in northern europe are built on iron age sacred sites because it was much easier getting people to sing different songs than to visit different places
00:52 July 30, 2010 by whatzup
No, Adolph would be annoyed. The muslims in the middle east hate the jews as much as he did and heres a guy trying to queer a 14 story mosque at the site of islam's greatest american triumph in the world wide war against the heathens (the jews and the rest of us).

Sure this is propaganda, welcome propaganda. Perhaps not on a par with some of the more subtle work turned out by hollywood during world war II but a welcome straightforward exposition of uncomfortable facts. Mr. Condell's outrage in this clip reflects what a lot of us feel on this issue.
02:21 July 30, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Anyone who identifies himself with the misinformed hate-mongering rhetoric of Pat Condell (whoever the F he is) brands himself as an imbecile. You are no better than the Muslim jihadists you vilify for their atrocities. As for Condell's specious argument to the effect that because some Islamic militants use violence to advance their religion, Islam itself should be stripped of its religious status and designated a terrorist organization, the same could be said of any religion, starting with the Catholic Church and pentacostal christians. To brand all Muslims as terrorists is to serve only one purpose -- to promote religious hatred, xenophobia and mass murder. People who subscribe to this crap are as stupid and evil as those jihadists they hate and fear so much. Both are a scourge upon the planet. You're in fine company, whatzup, and I at least commend you for publicly admitting that you're a hate-monger, a coward and a right-wing zealot who has no rightful place in civilized society.
03:10 July 30, 2010 by whatzup
I love these speeches of yours Prufrock. They're wonderful studies in political correctness but unfortunately its all boring clattrap we've heard before. Do you ever think for yourself or is it always the party line with you? Of course Mr. Condell has it right and the proof is that you drives folks of your persuasion into apoplexy trying defend the indefensible. Check out Geert Wilders' Freedom Party if you feel the need to raise your blood pressure even further. Then write us another 500 words about how non threatening islam is and how we should all just get along.
05:17 July 30, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Geert Wilders' Freedom Party? Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel. What is your solution, Skippy? Nuke all 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet? Your ignorance is almost mind-boggling. Enjoy your next teabagger convention. With every word you write you reaffirm my decision to expatriate just to be shed of bigots of your ilk.

Speaking of "defending the indefensible," this is now the 4th time I've invited you to defend the war in Afghanistan. Try it. Demonstrate to all of us your geopolitical acumen. Oh, that's right. You can't. Instead of trolling a German website from Arizona, Arkansas or Texas, or whatever backward state you live in, why don't you confine your hate speech to America where it is constitutionally protected and appreciated by people of your dubious intelligence. I'm sure your guru Glenn Beck will provide you with all the talking points you need.
11:14 July 30, 2010 by whatzup
Expatriate? What a great idea. Come join us here in Germany and there might be a very small chance you'll figure it out. You're a case study Prufrock on how wrong one person can be about almost everything. On the other hand stay in the US, you'll probably be more comfortable with your equalitarian fantasies and liberal political bullsh%t closeted in Bennington or wherever you're from. Just don't forget to wear your partisan blinders, it could be inconvenient for you should you ever have to confront reality.
12:01 July 30, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Thanks for the invitation, pal, but I live in Germany. In fact, it was in Hamburg that I once interviewed a neo-nazi named Christian Worch who sounded remarkably similar to you. And like you, Worch couldn't answer a simple question with a straight answer either. In any case, I'm done with your übernationalist bullsh*t. Be grateful you're protected by the anonymity of the internet. Look me up if you're ever in Frankfurt and we'll confront reality together.
12:24 July 30, 2010 by whatzup
Nah, you're from Bennington, either that or Wellesley. Be grateful I'm protected by the anonymity of the internet? From you? You really have hit rock bottom.
04:17 July 31, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Going to the bottom is where you find the bottom feeders.
10:39 July 31, 2010 by whatzup
Have fun there with your friends, sorry I can't come along. I've gone deep enough as it is chatting with you. Over and out.
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