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COVID-19

Q&A: ‘I was against vaccine mandates in Germany – until hospitals became overwhelmed’

Germany is bringing in mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, and MPs will vote on a general vaccine mandate. The Local spoke to an FDP member of parliament and health expert to find out how this could work, and if a 'freedom day' is in sight.

People queuing for a vaccination in Hanover, Lower Saxony.
People queuing for a vaccination in Hanover, Lower Saxony. Photo: picture alliance/dpa | Julian Stratenschulte

Dr Andrew Ullmann is a physician and member of the Free Democratic Party (FDP), which is part of the new government coalition along with the Social Democrats (SPD) and Greens. Ullmann has been serving as a member of the Bundestag from Würzburg in Bavaria since 2017. 

The Local asked the health expert about Germany’s plans to try and increase the number of vaccinations, Covid rules and when the pandemic might come to an end in Germany.  

The Local: German politicians were previously against introducing mandatory vaccinations in Germany. Why is this being considered now?

Andrew Ullmann: Let me explain first of all: when we are talking about mandatory vaccinations in the German language (Impfpflicht), with the laws we’re debating, we are talking about proof of vaccination, and not a forceful jab into the arm. This can only be done with the consent of the person. So they have to prove that they are vaccinated. If they cannot prove they’re vaccinated they might be fined, depending – in the future – where they work.

This is the law that we have passed in the Bundestag –  we’re going to introduce institutionalised mandatory vaccinations, meaning that hospitals or outpatient care facilities – people that work there as healthcare professionals but also, for example, the janitor or other person employed, have to prove that they are vaccinated otherwise they cannot work there.

Going back to your question – I was always against mandatory vaccination. But this was at a time when the healthcare system wasn’t overwhelmed. Now for the first time in Germany in the pandemic we see hospitals that have to move their patients, for example from Bavaria to northern Germany, or from Saxony to west Germany. That is the point where I think mandatory vaccinations have to be put in place, and this is why the first step is the institutionalised vaccines.

READ ALSO: Germany passes Covid-19 requirement for health workers

So just to clarify – do you think Germany needs, at this point, some kind of mandatory vaccination?

Absolutely, I think we have to also consider the escalation steps possible.

What are the steps being taken now for a general vaccine mandate vote in the Bundestag?

Right now we’re debating across the board with different parties because they (vaccine mandates) are an ethical or conscious thought – how far are we willing to go for the general mandatory vaccination? Meaning – are we open to vaccinating everyone beyond the age of five or are we going to opt for selective regional, temporary vaccination mandate? This is still part of the discussion that will be continued in smaller groups over the holidays. And we’ll likely come up with various proposals in January where – independent of the party affiliation – different groups will evolve.

Dr Andrew Ullmann, a member of parliament in Germany for the Free Democrats.
Dr Andrew Ullmann, a member of parliament in Germany for the Free Democrats. Photo courtesy of Andrew Ullmann.

So it may be that, for instance, over 50-year-olds in Germany will have to be vaccinated, or over 60-year-olds?

Yes that’s an example, this is one thought. And this could just be in Saxony or Thuringia or Bavaria and not in northern Germany, for example in Schleswig-Holstein. The variation is wide. Even in my own party we have a groare opposingup of people who  any kind of mandatory vaccinations all the way over to (those calling for a) general vaccine mandate.

Do you think there will be a majority in German parliament for a general vaccine mandate? Could you see that happening?

I wouldn’t rule it out but it’s hard to say right now. We have just started our work in parliament. We still have to sort out our opinions. 

Do you think mandatory jabs can actually work and convince people to get vaccinated?

I think so, yes, to the part that the decision making is taken away from those persons who are hesitant to get vaccinated. They say: ‘Now I have no choice so I get vaccinated’. I think that applies to a significant proportion of people who are not vaccinated yet. On the other side we also have to realise that fully vaccinated people, as they are now with two jabs, are not medically fully vaccinated because you need the third (booster) jab to have better immunity against the virus, so as not to become ill. 

READ ALSO: Boosters could be needed for 2G venues, says German Health Minister

In the last months we saw repeated warnings from experts that Germany did not have enough vaccination coverage to get through winter. Do you think the last government should have considered a vaccine mandate earlier, or other steps?

I would go for the latter. I think the communication of the government – specifically – the public institution who explain to people why vaccinations are important – I think they did a very poor job. Back in the 80s and 90s they did a very good job with (getting information out on) HIV and Aids, but this time, they did a very poor job. And the communication from the Ministry of Health and RKI could have been better, because there were uncertainties about vaccines – I’l remind you of the AstraZeneca disaster, for example – that really affected the vaccine strategy. 

Right now we have to look forward. I’m happy to see how people are lining up for vaccines and the third jab. I think communities should come up with good ideas to make vaccinations very lucrative. I would even go so far to say that incentives like a free Bratwurst or Glühwein – without alcohol of course –  during Christmas would motivate people to get their third jabs or vaccinations in the first place. 

Germany recently tightened Covid-19 restrictions like the nationwide 2G rules, and contact restrictions for the unvaccinated. Are these rules enough to get the fourth wave under control?

I think it has to be very clear that all modules of infection prevention have to be used – contact precautions, respiratory precautions and vaccinations. We need all three to lower the transmission of disease.

READ ALSO: Key Points – Germany’s new Covid rules to fight fourth wave

A sign in Munich says entry is only for vaccinated or recovered people.
A sign in Munich says entry to a restaurant is only for vaccinated or recovered people – the 2G rules. Photo: picture alliance/dpa | Sven Hoppe

Should there be contact restrictions for vaccinated people at the moment?

Yes – not in general but for those who have tested positive for Covid-19. They have to be isolated. We have to be aware that despite vaccination you can test positive for the virus and transmit the virus to other people. I think 2G plus – when vaccinated or recovered people get tested – is a good idea especially when families get together. Those rapid tests should be done on on a daily basis to ensure there will be no family transmission of the disease. 

We’ve heard various politicians and health experts in Germany advising people not to socialise too much. Do you think people should be cutting down on contact?

I think people have to cut down on personal contact. I would agree on that. This can only be a recommendation. We’ve been in a pandemic for almost two years now, there’s a certain kind of fatigue in the population in all these recommendations. I’m afraid that not many people would listen to those recommendations. 

Do you think there could be more Covid restrictions over the festive period? For instance Lower Saxony’s state leader has put forward the idea of an extended ‘Christmas break’ (a mini lockdown). 

I would never rule it out but I would like to see the evidence that it’s really effective, and I have not seen that.

Do you expect that Germany will bring in more travel restrictions?

I think it’s important that we have certain rules in (domestic) public transportation for example. We have mandatory mask wearing, we also have to have proof of vaccination recovery or a test when travelling by train.

If you come from a high-risk country into Germany then you have to be tested and you have to go into quarantine. I think that makes sense and it’s not a lockdown on travel. I don’t think that (a lockdown on travel) should happen. I do appreciate the fatigue in a lot of people but I think (the controls) are a necessity still today, still this winter, until we have this pandemic halfway under control.

READ ALSO: Is travel to and from Germany possible over the Christmas holidays?

There was hope that the pandemic would turn endemic in Germany in spring 2022. But with worries over the Omicron variant, do you think we have a longer road ahead of us?

I like to dream and hope that this virus will become endemic sometime in the next months. However, I would be very cautious about it even if the numbers are dropping January or spring time to think that the pandemic is over. Especially with Omicron – we have no idea what that means, but it could be a precursor for other strains on the way. We cannot lower our guards yet. I’m very cautious about calling for a freedom day.

But I think if we have a low incidence combined with a high vaccination rate combined with possible boosters for the new variants, then I’m optimistic we can lower our guards to a new kind of future with more freedom. This virus is very tricky and has surprised us a couple of times in the last two years.

READ ALSO: Germany must be prepared for Omicron variant

We edited some parts of this interview for clarification. 

Member comments

  1. ‘we’re not talking about a forceful jab in the arm . This can only be done with the consent of the person’ – so reasonable. They’re just saying take the jab or we’ll make you destitute.

    1. The Pandemic closed down my entire Industry, but if everyone had got innoculated we could have coped with the fourth wave much better & maybe I could have got back to work. Instead, 90% of people in intensive care due to the virus are the unvaccinated, and they are the reason we have to have these 2G rules. So them destitute or me? I’ll choose them.

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HEALTH

When, where and how can I get the flu shot in Germany?

Seasonal flu vaccines, Covid boosters, and the monkeypox vaccine are recommended for risk groups in Germany as it gets colder. Here’s what you need to know.

When, where and how can I get the flu shot in Germany?

Flu cases are way up in Germany this year – back to over 22,000 nationwide so far, and those are just the laboratory-confirmed ones. With many Covid-19 restrictions also having slowed the spread of flu in 2020 and 2021, German doctors are particularly encouraging at-risk groups to get this year’s flu vaccine.

Who?

In principle, anyone in Germany can speak to their doctor and get the flu vaccine. However, it is recommended particularly for certain at-risk groups.

According to the German Robert Kock Institute (RKI), which advises the government on viruses, these groups include:

  • anyone over the age of 60
  • pregnant women from their second trimester
  • people with chronic underlying medical conditions such as diabetes, HIV, Multiple Sclerosis, or various heart conditions
  • People who live or work in care homes
  • Medical personnel
  • People who work in areas with particularly high amounts of traffic. These could include schools or Kitas, for example
  • People who live with or care for someone from one of these groups

When?

Flu season’s peak is normally expected in January. That’s why doctors advise you to have your protection in place before then. So the best time to get vaccinated for the flu is between October and December.

With the vaccine taking about 10-14 days to kick in, doctors advise making sure you have the shot by mid-December, so that when the season peaks in January, your body is prepared to fight off the virus if you come in contact with it.

Where?

The easiest place to get a flu vaccine is at your doctor’s office. However, some health authorities run public vaccination campaigns, depending on your federal state. Some workplaces may also administer flu shots on site once a year.

For the first time this season though, pharmacies in Germany will be able to administer a flu shot to any adult with statutory health insurance. Check with your local pharmacy to see if they do it.

Can I get the flu shot at the same time as my Covid-19 booster shot?

In most cases, there are no restrictions on getting the flu shot and a Covid booster at the same time. Most flu vaccines given in Germany are inactivated viruses, which can be administered simultaneously with a flu shot. You don’t have to wait between getting one shot and getting the other.

If giving it you at the same time, your doctor will likely use both arms – one for each vaccine.

READ ALSO: What to know about getting a fourth Covid vaccination in Germany

What about Monkeypox?

Germany has now seen its total number of reported monkeypox cases hit 3,656—with around half of all cases being reported in Berlin. With more and more people getting vaccinated though, the seven-day average of new infections has slowed from a peak of 71 per day in mid-July to less than one a day in October.

That’s far less than the US rate of 105 a day or even Spain at just over four a day.

The vast majority of cases worldwide and in Germany have been detected in gay and bisexual men, whom German health authorities are still advising to get vaccinated if they haven’t already.

Other risk groups include people who work in certain laboratories where they might become exposed, and people who have already potentially been exposed.

Someone who suspects they’ve been in contact with a confirmed case of monkeypox is advised to get a vaccine shot within four days.

READ ALSO: Who can get the monkeypox vaccine in Germany – and how?

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