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German cities wary of WWII bombers memorial

The Local · 28 Jun 2012, 17:26

Published: 28 Jun 2012 17:26 GMT+02:00

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“People here were concerned about the memorial in 2010 when we first heard about it. We lost many people on 13 February 1945 – the accepted figure is 25,000,” Heike Grossmann, spokeswoman for Dresden’s mayor told The Local.

She said the mayor, Helma Orosz, had been to London to talk to mayor Boris Johnson about the memorial when it was first considered.

“She told him about the concerns in Dresden. It was hard to understand for the people of Dresden why this memorial was being built.”

But now that the memorial includes a mention of the victims - a decision taken late in the process - Grossmann said there was no reason to comment further.

Christoph Holstein, spokesman for the city council of Hamburg, much of which was destroyed in a firestorm caused by massive bombing raids in 1943, said the focus in Germany was always one of reconciliation.

“Cities and states have different ways of dealing with the past. These different ways have to be accepted. Germany and Hamburg next summer will be doing something to remember those who died here,” he told The Local.

“We are not critical of what is being done in London but there are different ways of remembering.”

The 70th anniversary of Operation Gomorrah, which targeted Hamburg, will be marked next year with an emphasis on reconciliation.

Holstein said great cooperative work was being undertaken by Hamburg city authorities and people at the British University of Keele to use wartime aerial photographs to find unexploded bombs which could still pose a danger.

“Our thoughts are more of reconciliation,” he said.

The large privately-funded memorial, complete with three-metre tall statues of pilots inside, is the result of a five-year campaign led by the late pop star Robin Gibb. It is specifically to remember the more than 55,000 Royal Air Force bomber pilots and crew who died in the war.

Story continues below…

It came under heavy criticism within the UK for its lack of focus on the victims of the bombs.

But Bomber Command Association chairman Malcolm White told the BBC the message was also one of reconciliation. “That’s why it’s writ large on the wall. ‘We remember those of all countries who died in 39 – 45’,” he said.

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Your comments about this article

18:33 June 28, 2012 by Leo Strauss
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner

From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,

And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.

Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,

I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.

When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

Randall Jarrell
19:53 June 28, 2012 by PNWDev
Sorry for my insensitivity and confusion, but which Britain established this memorial?

Is it the Brittan that declared war and first attacked Germany because of the German invasion of western Poland, while completely ignoring the Soviet invasion of Poland from the east? Or, is this the Britain that turned a blind eye and did nothing when the Soviets attacked Finland? Or maybe it is the Britain that allowed the Soviets to annex Poland after the war, despite starting the war to protect Poland¦#39;s lost sovereignty to Germany! Hmmm, or could it be the same Britain who allowed their Soviet ally to encage much of Europe behind Soviet barbwire for the second half of the 20th century?

No, it cannot be that Britain, I read that was a just-Britain that started a just-war that in the end freed all of Europe. It must then be the Britain of Churchill who schemed his globalist agenda with the Soviet Union at Yalta to help send some 6 million anticommunist Russians and Black Sea ethnic Germans to Soviet Gulags in Kazakhstan and their eventual death. But those 6 million do not count because they were all bad.

I guess I will remain confused on which Britain the article talks about.
21:03 June 28, 2012 by bwjijsdtd
Those who forget the past ... are destined to repeat it .... let us not forget ....
22:33 June 28, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks

I imagine you are a deeply troubled person.

It was the Britain that had 400,000 soldiers dead, 300,000 soldiers wounded, and 60,000 civilians dead (mostly from German bombing) that established the memorial.
22:34 June 28, 2012 by wood artist
There are clearly legitimate issues on both sides of this memorial. The one thing I think should be considered is that had the Nürnburg Tribunal not been "limited" to prosecuting only the criminals of the Third Reich, Bomber Harris would have been in the dock too. His actions were clearly equally heinous, and Dresden is a clear example. Even Churchill knew it, and after the fact tried to distance himself from the decisions that led to the raids.

Harris steadfastly remained wedded to the idea that bombing by itself could bring an end to the war, even as his own BDA (Bomb Damage Assessments) concluded that about 1% of his bombs landed within 10 miles of the target. He turned to area bombing (terror bombing) because a "big city" was all they could hit at night, and they even missed Berlin a good part of the time. While I'm not defending the US effort, at least their daylight raids made an honest attempt to hit military targets.

23:15 June 28, 2012 by PNWDev

Where did I say the Brits did not suffer? You missed the point, apparently the obvious always has to be explained to you.

There is no innocent side to war, it¦#39;s about killing, conquering, and promoting and controlling ideological agendas. The victors always have the ability to frame history in a way that assures the populace the righteous won and now the world will be a better place. Pointing out facts of history is not a promotion or condemnation of, it is just facts whether we like them or not.

Which sentence of mine is not reflective of the truth? You fabricated a position I did not take in order to argue with yourself.
00:33 June 29, 2012 by MrPC
@ PNWDev

You are confused. Hitler lead the germans in a war of expansionism and the germans and much of the rest of the world paid the price. As is so often quoted "The germans sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind".

The germans have no one to blame but themselves for the suffering they endured in WWII. In my opinion any means used to bring them to heel for the monstrous way they behaved towards the enemy, enemy civilians, their own civilians and even their own troops put them beyond the pale of the most basic human consideration. Thank God our side won, it was a very near thing.
00:47 June 29, 2012 by catjones
PNWDev...the first version of the memorial depicted a bomber raining incendiaries over a city. The germans liked that one cause it showed them delivering justice to London. The Brits liked it cause it reminded them of Dresden and the Americans figured it was Doolittle over Tokyo. Then came the money part. The germans claimed to be broke, the Americans said they always pay and the Brit were out of the room during the vote so they got stuck with the tab. Typical Brits, they agreed to pay, then changed the design and that's what you have. Clear? It was that Britain.
01:15 June 29, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks
Catjones - too funny

@PNWDev - How many times have we heard the expression "The Victors write the history." Please list two or three historical items where you know the "true history" and the rest of us gullible ones only know what we've read in the history books.

And, as always, it's the Germans who are profoundly concerned about their victims in WWII, whicht they started. I don't see the French, Belgiums, Dutch, Norweigans, etc, pining for recognition for their citizens killed by bombing by the US and Brits. I've never, never heard one of these nationalities complain about the Americans and Brits and the bombing.
02:50 June 29, 2012 by DOZ
"¦#39;We remember those of all countries who died in 39 ­ 45¦#39;,¦quot; he said."

Nicely put. Thank You.

Men are fools, and so many pay the price. Hopefully if Man decides to repeat himself, it takes part in North America. Maybe then the USA and Canada will stop being War-Mongers.
03:36 June 29, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks
@DDZ -

On behalf of the USA and Canada I will apologize for starting WW1 and WW2, and Korea War in 1953, and invading Hungary in 1956, and Czech in 1968, invading Kuwait in 90, and murdering 3,000,000 Bangladeshis in 1970, and murdering 3,000,000 Cambodians in 1975, and invading Tibet and killing all the monks, and...

Well, I hope you get the point cry baby.
09:41 June 29, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ MrPC #7

Read again PNWDev's post. Is it about (Nazi) Germany or Hitler? No commentator tried to absolve them of guilt. The article is not about what Nazi Germany or Hitler did (nobody took their side), but about the controversial monument, considering how many innocent victims the bomber pilots killed. So the ethical question is if killing unarmed civilians (including children) served a higher purpose or not.

What PNWDev very well pointed out is that Britain, just as any country at any point of history, was not looking for the moral thing to do, but for its self interest. Or, maybe more precise, for the interest of the ruling party/class. PNWDev is not taking the side of Nazi Germany/Hitler. Or is this not clear for you?
09:45 June 29, 2012 by Leo Strauss
I posted `The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner` in memory of all of the young men who fell while serving their countries during the Second World War. Please, give it a second read.

Wars are fought at the behest of the money interests so that states will become indebted to them, which in turn increases their wealth and hold over their victims. Psychopathic, Sociopathic, and venal creatures are installed or install themselves into positions of power within the state and then do their masters` bidding. Young men in uniform are then offered up as a blood sacrifice to these dark gods, along with the elderly, the women, and the children.

War doesn`t ennoble man, it debases him- especially the young. I believe that these young fallen soldiers should be remembered as victims of international finance and their criminal puppet States, which even now are preparing us for the next bloodbath.

Know thine enemy
11:20 June 29, 2012 by MrPC
@ Chris Rea

There were no innocent german victims of the British bombing campaign during WWII in my opinion. The german people were Hitler's enablers during the war and has been documented and most germans only began to have doubts about the conflict when they began to lose. When the germans bombed London they set a precedent that was finally their undoing. And as to the morality of the bombing it is clear that Britain's self interest during the war coincided neatly with that of mankind's greater good. Or would you have preferred that England lost the war?

It is far overdue that the allied airman who fought so bravely during World War II have finally been recognized in a small way for their valor, patriotism and sacrifice in bringing about the victory that was the great achievement of the twentieth century's fight against fascism. The toll was terrific but the ends could not have been achieved without the means.
11:38 June 29, 2012 by Anny One
A heroic War Memorial for the bombing and destroying of 160 Cities

including 600 000 Civilians.Many Cities had neither a military

significance, nor armament industry,and no air raid bunker for the Citizen.

I think this Memorial lacks a little bit of sensibility.

Sorry not my taste,and i have to remind some of you it was the Brits who

start the bonbing on german civilian targets in WWII,on 12Jan40 on Westerland Sylt . - Just for the History,but i feel sorry for the fallen Crewmembers too.
11:52 June 29, 2012 by ChrisRea
# MrPC

"There were no innocent german victims of the British bombing campaign during WWII" - oh, yes, you are right. The 5-year old killed in, for example, Dresden bombardment had surely voted to put Hitler in power. Yes, there were no innocent German victims of the British bombarding campaign. I apologise for the mistake.

"Britain's self interest during the war coincided neatly with that of mankind's greater good" - yes, here we both agree that it was purely accidental. Of course, we should refer only to the purpose of defeating Nazi Germany, not to everything Britain did in connection to the war.
11:55 June 29, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`There were no innocent german victims of the British bombing campaign during WWII in my opinion.`

Still not getting it. It`s not about the Germans or the English- these national groups are not monolithic. It`s about the ruling elites that instigate the wars in order to create debt, for reasons I have listed above; then the military-industrial complex has to be fed and so on down the chicken ladder...

You are looking at the actions of the NS Regime without any context. This is like watching CNN or the BBC- it is disconnected and without background. It`s a misquoted soundbite out of history.

Take a wider shot. Back it up...Move it forward... identify the key players who have always been there: Cui Bono?

Göring said something like, `Of course the poor swine down on the farm wants nothing of war when the most that he can hope for is to get back home alive and intact. One simply has to tell him that he is being attacked and he will willingly put on a uniform.` If that`s true, then who wants it? Who always wins the war?

By the way, the Allies didn`t win the Second World War. Are you in Britain? Take a look around, you live in a fascist police state. What would Hitler have said if he could only see the 2012 London Olympics? Same goes for the US. Sorry, the fascists/international banksters won even as the `Germans` lost. How? They were `on your side`. Whatever that means.

Bottom line: The Rothschild/Rockefeller Eugenicists who funded the Nazis nascent racist projects are still around. They will have their world government and their monopoly no matter who their Golem is.

MrPC...to the front! ;)

PS Just kidding. Don`t wish it on you, my friend.
12:09 June 29, 2012 by MrPC
@ Anny One

Nonsense Anny One. Westerland Sylt was bombed right after the german air attack on Scapa Flow and it was a military seaplane base, not a city. German cities supported the war effort whether or not they had troops or arms factories and thus were legitimate targets. And as to the lack of air raid bunkers the germans should have thought of that before they started the war.

If the new monument lacks any sensitivity it is its avoidance of the question as to why this monument was not built until almost all the aircrew have died.
12:45 June 29, 2012 by victor9
The Germans got a memorial to the U-boot crews (and there was only around 27,000-30000 (depending on source used) of them lost as apposed to 55,573 aircrew ) and they tried to starve a nation not to mention the people they directly killed when sinking merchant vessels.

I don't recall the uk complaining when the u boot memorial was rededicated..... which was originally built in 1930 btw.....(as a memorial to the uboot crews of ww1 who tried the same tactic).

It's just a shame Germany wasn't decimated in ww1, then maybe 50 million lives might have been spared when no ww2 took place ,as a certain cpl might have accepted defeat moreso than an armistice......or maybe not (he did have issues did he not!)
13:13 June 29, 2012 by bwjijsdtd
What is really interesting about all these post, is each and everyone is correct ... does it really matter who built a memorial ... I mean come on ... it was important to someone or it would not have been done ... but to continue to argue and wanting to refight a war that happened almost 70 years ago is really kinda silly ... I mean, do you think that by doing so it will change the outcome? Hardly.
13:25 June 29, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

Sorry Leo, your effort to portrait the germans as victims too is a non starter. The germans elected Hitler and supported his aggressive behavior until the very last stages of the war. Your class warfare argument to evade responsibility might work if the german public hadn't been so in tune with their nazi ruling elites until it all turned sour.

@ ChrisRea The 5 year old killed in the bombing is entirely the fault of the germans as the allies threw everything they could at the aggressors. And everything they could almost wasn't enough.
14:51 June 29, 2012 by Leo Strauss

History did not begin in 1933. If you are unwilling to examine the historical context that led to the rise of Nazism, Hitler and the Second World War, then we`re not going to be able to find much common ground. In your world, those German women and children who were killed deserved what they got. End of story. Unfortunately, reality does not come packaged in an hour long made-for-TV movie, wherein we start with the Braun Baddies coming to power and end with the Red Baddies running up the Sickle and Hammer in Berlin (both financed by the same Banksters, but let`s not complicate our simple narrative).

In the real world, the Eugenicist/Bankster/Fascists who financed the two world wars are still calling the shots and have turned countries like Britain and the US into corporate-fascist police states. I`m talking Rothschild, Warburg, Loeb-Kuehn, Rockefeller and the rest of the gang.

If you haven`t figured it out yet: they won. They were on both sides.

You are now the Braun Baddies.

Does it make you feel better if it is all wrapped up in a Union Jack?

You`ve been played, my friend, or rather, you`ve played yourself.

See the old lady up there in the lila outfit? She`s a German. Get it yet? Kings and Queens should only be found on playing cards.

It ain`t about nationality, its about power.
18:22 June 29, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ MrPC #21

I am glad that now you admit that there were innocent German victims of the British bombardments (as opossed to your post #14), even if you claim that it was not the fault of the British. It is a step forward, a crack against the propaganda you were fed.

Now we can go a bit further. Are you aware that the bombing targeted the city and refugee camps and not the military objectives (Dresden had not so many anyway and the military barracks were actually way out of the town; Albertstadt, just a little north of Dresden, had much more important military facilities) or the infrastructure (bridges, railways etc)? Are you also aware that at that stage of the war the industrial plants of Dresden were of little importance?

Dresden was also not the only case. For example Pforzheim was bombed because it was a jewellery and watch making trade center (good reason, right?). 20,000 civilians died.

Maybe this is the reason why Wing Commander H. R. Allen, a Spitfire pilot himself, said "The final phase of Bomber Command's operations was far and away the worst ... the outrages perpetrated by the bombers will be remembered a thousand years hence."
18:43 June 29, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

You're the one thats being played by the politically correct liberal press. What goobledegook about a banker-fascist cabal - you and I own stock in those businesses. "I have met the enemy and they are us!"

Adults are responsible for their own behavior and the germans are responsible for theirs during the war no matter how they try to paint themselves as victims or try to escape responsibility by desperately gesturing towards pre 1933 german history. Germans behaved like monsters 1939-1945 when they had the power and the rest of europe has not forgotten.

@ ChrisRea

I disagree with Wing Commander R.H. Allen. We did what it took to win in the full knowledge that if the germans got the chance they would have done much more of the same to us.
19:54 June 29, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ MrPC

"We did what it took to win ..." - yes, the bomber pilots did what it took to win, no dispute about it. The issue pointed out by the article is that they did also what was not needed for victory, namely killing innocents instead of focusing on military objectives. This is what Wing Commander H. R. Allen, as somebody who was in the middle of the action, means. Were you a bomber pilot in WWII?

The world is not black and white, my friend. There are many shades of grey.
20:08 June 29, 2012 by Leo Strauss

You`re right MrPC, there really is no sense in studying the historical context that created the rise of National Socialism, much less the corporate fascism that is sweeping the West as we speak. That`s just goobledegook from the politically correct liberal press, as you say. The Germans just snapped for six years and behaved like monsters, but now it`s all good. Phweeew! Let`s hope that that never happens again! An unforeseeable and inexplicable act of collective madness like a bolt out of the blue. I`m gonna push some furniture up against the door after I post, cuz you never know with these Germans (when you outsource your mind)...

No need to examine the facts, or the actors or the patterns. No, nothing to learn here folks, move along. History is simply a chain of unrelated random events that occur in a vacuum.

Good night MrPC, defender of the realm and loyal subjected subject.

I leave you to your corporate fascist Britain and your German Queen.
22:14 June 29, 2012 by Englishted
@Leo Strauss

Strange but because of a distant ,distant relative you call the Queen German,yet you would not trace family histories so far back normally or you would be called racist ,remember the Nazis traced as far back as they could to find Jewish "blood".

Interestingly I believe had not Germany surrendered before the A-bomb was ready they would have had a lot more to complain about, as to Dresden I think it was just to show the Soviets and some die hard Nazis that the power was available if and when it was needed.

@Anny One

Sorry not my taste,and i have to remind some of you it was the Brits who start the bonbing on german civilian targets in WWII,on 12Jan40 on Westerland Sylt . - Just for the History,but i feel sorry for the fallen Crewmembers too..

Selective aren't you didn't the Nazis terror bomb Spanish cities in "the Spanish civil war",then on to Poland,Holland,France or maybe I have read the "wrong" history books too ?.
22:26 June 29, 2012 by renolds531
I think the memorial is to those, who it cannot be denied, were very brave young men doing a very dangerous job which in a sane world they would not have had to do. Wars are started by a few stupid people and fought by fit young men, untill their are none left, then the few stupid people sit round a table. If only the table was used first!

In my family my auntie married in America, a young German man, who when America joined the war, was sent to North Africa to fight the Germans, If you can see the logic in that you are a better man than me.

Lets remember them and learn so that no one has to do it again.
23:28 June 29, 2012 by Leo Strauss

Sorry old Boy, but your royals, the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, are Germans. Just because some public relations hacks re-branded these Robber Barons as The House Windsor doesn`t change this fact. Diene kleine Betti 2 ist deutsch. And what about her husband, Prinz Philip? He comes directly from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. No wonder that Little Harry enjoys dressing up in Afrika Korps uniforms, complete with that funny little twisted cross on the armband. Wie sagt man `Jubilee` auf Deutsch? Egal...

As for your comments regarding blood lineage and racism, let`s leave that to the experts: your precious blue bloods. These are the true Nazis and unrepentant eugenicists.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that these elites, like your black royalty, and Bea-Tricks of the Netherlands, are solely interested in power. These high criminals and merchants of death would change their name to House of Wong if it meant that they could continue to rule and maintain their fortunes. And you would kneel down before them...or put on a uniform for them and kill. A subject. Subject to the will of your German Queen.

As for DD, I haven`t written about Dresden so I don`t know what you`re on about there.

Time to rise up and stand, Englishted. I declare you to be a freeman. :)
02:51 June 30, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

Thats right, not the germans fault, the devil and history made them do it. And I have a bridge I want to sell you.

@ ChrisRea

No I wasn't, but my uncle was a tail gunner in a B-17 Flying Fortress and was killed over Italy in 1944. If you think fascism is a shade of grey then you're either a jerk or extremely naive.
10:23 June 30, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ MrPC #30

Did I say anything about fascism? Where do you get all this from?

Shades of grey means that no man was/is perfect. We all make mistakes. Even the victors of the WWII. The article mentions the wrongdoings made during the British bombardments. Let's learn from it and try to avoid it next time.

Leo Strauss did not say that Germans are innocent, don't put words in his mouth too. He just said that there are also others who "contributed" in starting the war. Is there any sane adult who could sincerely state the contrary? I guess not.
11:12 June 30, 2012 by Englishted
@Leo Strauss

The last British monarch to be born outside the U.K. was George II in 30 October 1683 in Hannover .

There was in fact only one monarch in the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha,Edward the VII before they changed in 1917 .

So how far back can you go if you the last one was 1683 ,and still be German ?,to carry on you would have to find where the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha original came from ,eventually we should find we all came out of Africa (current thinking).

I think there are far more dangerous people in power than the royals ,take some in charge of the E.U. who are playing with peoples lives as if it is a game.

Back to the article I think it is correct to honour these young men who did what they believed was correct to end the rule of Nazism in Europe ,history will be the judge as to the merits of the bombing but that does not distract from personal bravery and sacrifice.
12:48 June 30, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`The last British monarch to be born outside the U.K. was George II in 30 October 1683 in Hannover .`

Good Lord, do I really have to explain this to an Englishman?? You had the Hanoverians, a German royal family which spoke German and simultaneously held German Elector titles and possessions.

George I (ruled 1714-1727)

George II (ruled 1727-1760)

George III (ruled 1760-1820)

George IV (ruled 1820-1830)

William IV (ruled 1830-1837)

Victoria (ruled 1837-1901)

Queen Victoria, the last of the Hanoverians, spoke only German until the age of three. So you see, it simply wasn`t a question of where these monarchs were born- they remained German to the end of the Hanoverian line.

At the end of that line, Queen Vikki married a GERMAN (who was born in Germany, if you`re keeping score), the German Prince Albert of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha in 1840. They also spoke German at home.

The royals used this title until astute propagandists decided to change the name in 1917, as you indicate. Kinda like calling a frankfurter a hotdog...nevertheless, the thing is still a frankfurter.

As noted, then along came die kleine Betti 2 with her Prinz Philip of... get ready: the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. Is that German enough for ya? Still in da Nile? It`s not just a river in Africa. ;)

Don`t even get me going on all of the Nazi connections to this gang. Are you aware that all of Prince Philip's sisters married either gauleiters or SS generals, all of whom naturally remained in Nazi Germany during the Second World War?

I can`t understand why you are arguing in an attempt to take ownership of these criminals. It is astounding. If it were possible I would erase their connection to Germany and you could keep them.

I agree with you regarding the dangerous technocrats and bought-off EU politicians. You need to draw the connection between this gang and the royals.

Also agree with you regarding the bravery and sacrifice of the young men who served and died. I would honor them as individuals though, victims of their own state as much as the enemy`s.


I enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. Your comments were well-thought out, rational and compassionate. You have walked down the road a little bit with MrPC, talking to him the whole way, and I think that others who have read both of your comments have been left with something worthwhile to consider. Thanks for taking the time. :)
13:45 June 30, 2012 by MrPC
@ ChrisRea

I see no mention of wrongdoing in the article above. The cities of Dresden and Hamburg were important transportation hubs and thus fair game, legitimate and necessary targets for bringing the war to an end as soon as possible. The loss of life in both cites was both tragic and self inflicted. After the firestorm raid on Hamburg in 1942 which resulted in such widespread destruction Joseph Goebbels worried that after more bombings like that "workmen would just lay down their tools" and walk away from their work. The german people did not lay down their tools but continued to support the nazi war machine until the end of the war and most of their cities lay in ruins.

What "contributed to the war" was the german invasion of Poland. Full stop. Any attempt to mitigate the cause of the war or to attribute "shades of grey" to the fight against fascism is to disrespect the greatest generation who fought and died in a war that pitted mankind against a truly evil foe. I've changed my mind, you're not naive or a jerk, you're just a fool.
18:03 June 30, 2012 by sagamoreny
I was always told that Dresden was targeted because many of the Nazi officials had sent their families there as a matter of safety. The idea was to motivate them to end the war.

Besides, I always thought WWI was the cause of WWII. And if Morgantheau had his way, we would have fought WWIII with Germany, as his ridiculous plan showed that we who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

No matter why, but as they say, war is hell. Many died, innocent or not, and that continues today.
18:19 June 30, 2012 by Englishted
@Leo Strauss

I am married to a German ,my son was born in Ireland are we both German by your logic ?,if so why can't I vote here?

"Queen Victoria, the last of the Hanoverians, spoke only German until the age of three. So you see, it simply wasn`t a question of where these monarchs were born- they remained German to the end of the Hanoverian line."

Why as far as I know where you are born determines your nationality I repeat how far back would you go to prove your nationality ?as far as I know I'm English but I have not traced my family tree further back than 1800 so maybe I could be anything even Trojan ?where is my Trojan passport? .
18:58 June 30, 2012 by Flemska
Well I'm from Belgium - and I feel this debate is a joke! Germans still feeling they are the victim of this war? One the first city in the world to be bombed was London, gentlemen - German Zeppelins bombed London during the war of 1914-18 and a bomber squadron was stationed in Belgium to bomb the city on a regular basis. In one raid a school was hit - killing innocent children! One of the main reasons the King decided to change it's name into Windsor! Latter during the Spanish Civil war German bombers bombed Spanish (or better Bask) cities - target innocent people who opposed Franco - Hitler's friend! In the May 1940 Dutch city - Rotterdam was bombed by Germans AFTER the Dutch had surrendered officially to the German command. Latter Belgian civilians were targets during the invasion of thier country. My parents - were both caught in should raids targeting civilians. Hoping this would cause a panic reaction and block the Belgian streets so Belgian - French and British troops had trouble moving around and connecting. My father suffered from flash back till the of his live - seening babies - women being thorne apart by bombs. Latter German officers stationed in our village told him they did indeed target the civilians to have this effect but in the end it backfired as the German army supplies got stuck in this mess and the advancing troops had trouble keeping up their Blitz Krieg as they were in danger of running out of supplies! So to talk about victims about bombings - shouldn't we also not include these or are they are others not important enough to be considered 'victims'? Is that not what Hitler believed - only the G
21:37 June 30, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ MrPC #34

"The cities of Dresden and Hamburg were important transportation hubs and thus fair game, legitimate and necessary targets" - Really? So then why was the downtown bombarded and not the Autobahn and the bridges (including the railway bridges)? They were pretty much left untouched. I hope you do not claim that the lack of precision was in the range of tens of kilometers.

Is it easier to see the wrongdoing now? And the propaganda you were subject to?
23:06 June 30, 2012 by Leo Strauss

Keep twisting and twisting. Cross your fingers, repeat `Windsor` three times, close your eyes and then open them again and maybe, just maybe, your royal House of Hanover-Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha-Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg will be...British. ;)

Magical thinking. Denial. Cognitive Dissonance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance. These things are not good for you, Ted.

PS The German Shepherd ate your Trojan Pass- or would you feel better if I called it the Alsatian? :)
01:25 July 1, 2012 by MrPC
@ ChrisRea

Why were the downtown areas bombed? Why not? Perhaps they were easier to find and/or perhaps they missed the bridges? In any event bombing during the WWII was far from an exact science or a sure thing. Try keeping those ancient aircraft steady on a bombing run with antiaircraft fire and fighters coming at you while while trying to find a target obscured by smoke, and haze and perhaps in the dark. At any rate the germans have absolutely no grounds for complaint, they tried to obliterate London in 1940. They would have too if the RAF hadn't given back as good as they got. Dresden got what it deserved and Bomber Harris and his courageous flyers deserve more than just a statue 70 years after the event.
10:02 July 1, 2012 by Englishted
@Leo Strauss

If the dog that eat my pass came from Alsace-Lorraine ,it could now be a French -Shepherd ?.

If I'm in de Nile ,then you are in Seine. :-)
10:08 July 1, 2012 by Anny One again
First of all I am compled against Nazis and feel sorry for the Victims.I am ashamed for what Germany did back then

But I always wonder about the Anglo-Saxon point of view of their own history.Especially with such principles,. "Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it, let us not go there." Or, ".Hitler lead the germans in a war of expansionism and the germans and much of the rest of the world paid the price" Who says something apparently knows his own story badly.For example, a former colony of Great Britain freed itself from the shackles of its former masters, Praise his new Freedom in his young history and start to exterminate the native original inhabitants,enslaved People like before from another Kontinent and take them into slavery until 1865.Many of them work in a System forced Labor 63 Years in Alabama until 1928.and it takes nearly 100Years after end of slavery to give these people the same rights like any US Citizen in 1966 .Also they start a war with Mexico in 1846 for the same reason, such as Germany in Easteurope.In 1898 Expansion was also teh reason to start a war with Spain and invade Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Fillipines,a Yearlater directly against the Fillipine Population and convert them in a new colonial state, 1 million Fillipines lost their Lifes (20% of the fillipine Population).The military strategy "scorched earth", was already used by Alexander I. and Napoleon and the USA, not a german invention."ITurn them(the Fillipines) into a Howling Wilderness, I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me "(General Jacob H. Smith).And they done it,indiscriminately men, women and children were killed and torturedHonolulu and Hawaii joinend the United States,not becaus they wish.They have seen how bloody it can be if not.- ---- Peace !
10:31 July 1, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`Try keeping those ancient aircraft steady on a bombing run with antiaircraft fire and fighters coming at you while while trying to find a target obscured by smoke, and haze and perhaps in the dark.`

Dresden had no anti-air defenses. The Luftwaffe 88s surrounding the city were dummies made of wood. The bombers didn`t receive any flak and could in fact, come in at very low levels to deliver their payloads on the city centre.

The Germans put up minimal to no fighters to defend the city. The bombers could make their runs unmolested.

Bombing in the dark isn`t a problem during a firestorm.

Many of Bomber Harris` flyers who spoke out after the war about the Dresden fire bombing were sickened by it, considering it to be nothing short of mass murder. These were decent men who didn`t feel very `courageous`, as you put it, about wiping out an undefended city full of civilians and tens of thousands of refugees from the East. My heart goes out to these veterans. No normal human being wants to commit such atrocities. This is what I meant when I said that war debases man...

I am not singing along with the neo-Nazis here. They are the first ones to say that the Allies only won WW2 through Materialschlacht, to which I reply, should they have left half of their bombers on the ground in order to play fair? Of course the Allies should have used all means possible to win the war but the question is, as ChrisRea has been trying to explain to you, to what extent is killing civilians acceptable during the conduct of military operations? You have to consider proportionality. No question, the Germans bombed London and let`s not forget the V1 and V2 attacks- a terror program against civilians. But was Dresden a proportionate response to this?

My answer is no. Bomber Command`s decision to wipe out Dresden in order to destroy a refugee sanctuary and to demonstrate the capability of Allied Air power to the Soviets is unacceptable to me. This was mass murder. As was dropping the A-Bombs on Japan to impress Uncle Joe.

Apropo- don`t forget that the Dresden firebombing was the Beta-test for the Tokyo firebombing a month later. Another horror story...

Anyway, back to MrPC. It`s not too late for you to share in the glory. NATO needs Chickenhawks like you! Our valiant A-10s, drones, and attack helicopters are keeping the terrorists at bay, hosing down `insurgents` and `future terrorists` (aka children) alike with DU munition in order to keep us safe from harm.

MrPC, civies at 2 o`clock low...Talleyhooooooooooooooooooo! ;)


Funny. :D
10:50 July 1, 2012 by Anny One again
If you should be an Englishman, then look at your own history.

There is hardly a country that has invaded more countries in the world and looted,like the British and responsible for so many genocides in whole World.

mwc news.net-focus-editorial-458-churchill's-crimes-a-chilcot-inquiry-on-iraq-war.



The Lokal does not allowed the complete Url,so you have to google this three lines


"Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it, let us not go there."

Yes i am afraid of these Words because, obviously we have to fear the British.

And the belgian one "Flemska" your Country build

for a Massmurder Leopold II some nice Memorials or Statues.

For his African Congo Holocaust with estimated

10-15 Million Victims.Better think of your own History.


------ Peace !
14:13 July 1, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

There was resistance to the Dresden raids, thankfully not nearly as much as there had been to other targets earlier in the war. The germans had become adept to creating decoy fires to confuse night raids and these had on occasion completely confused missions to other cites. But Dresden got what it deserved, hopefully it shortened the war. Proportionality is only a parlour game for amateurs, the goal of professionals is to win the war in the shortest amount of time with the least suffering to the home side.

You Mr. Strauss are an amateur and a german so you might have a different opinion about what germany brought on itself in WW II. Those of us who have intimate knowlege of what occurred know differently, the guilt feelings of bombadiers and other confused commentators excepted.

As to the Japanese air raids the story is similar. It is debatable whether the Japanese or the germans treated "opponents" of the master race with more cruelty or which public supported their governments further toward the bitter end. It is clear that it was much better to bomb the axis into submission than to consider spending any extra allied lives. Its too bad that the americans did not have a nuclear bomb earlier in the war. Berlin might be history but a lot of lives would have been spared in an earlier german surrender.
15:06 July 1, 2012 by Englishted
@Anny One again

Oh please put out the list of British genocides,I don't disagree with the invasion point you made but those were the imperialist attitudes of the day ,and compered with the treatment handed out in South America we were mild, wrong maybe with hindsight but mild none the less.

The crimes committed by the Nazis and the Japanese are well documented and need not be pointed out ,short to say these brave airmen did what they believed would bring about the end of the war and I salute their bravery and thank them for helping set Europe free and thereby allowing us to disagree without the fear of a night time visit from the thought police.
15:40 July 1, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`You Mr. Strauss are an amateur and a german`

Wrong on both counts here, but getting it wrong doesn`t seem to slow you down.

It appears that your unbelievable ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance.

Your wasting time here, Little Chickenhawk. Go fly some drones for NATO and drum up some of that glory you worship. They still give out medals for killing children.
15:43 July 1, 2012 by Anth2305
The bottom line is that had the Germans been able to develop the technology to obliterate whole cities with their V2s delivering small nuclear devices, would they have used them against the UK, or even America with a long range version, at least until we had surrendered? The answer beyond any shadow of a doubt is, you bet they would!
16:41 July 1, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

I'm right on both accounts but of course you won't admit it. Maybe its something to do with your last name? Anyway, its clear whose kids you think should have been in jeopardy. Your wasting your time here, the FPí and the NPD could use your talent for obfuscation. On the other hand maybe they are already profiting from it?

@ Anth2305

Well exactly. The world is extremely lucky we got to the technology first. Sometimes, just sometimes, the good guys do win. And WWII was a very big one. A thousand year Reich under nice guys like the germans would not have been a walk in the park. And thank God for NATO with its superior technology (for the moment) that keeps chaos at bay with minimum exposure of its soldiers to harm. German soldiers were disposable 70 years ago, simply means to an end. Leo Strauss above would prefer it remain that way.
17:09 July 1, 2012 by Leo Strauss

Hey Killer:

18:19 July 1, 2012 by MrPC
@ Leo Strauss

No points for intellectual pretensions, you're still confused (or more likely simply malevolent). Go give John Irving a call, you two can do business together.
19:15 July 1, 2012 by Sastry.M
In general the one question that ever remains unanswered: why only human beings seek to build a synthetic sub creation as secondary to the primary natural creation including themselves, and mutilate the primary to create the secondary. Man cannot entertain ignorance and hence by virtue of his superior mind- intellect tries to stand up against and destroy it with knowledge of sub creation and finally end up with destroying everything he creates and and harming the nature.
19:33 July 1, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`No points for intellectual pretensions`

No points for intellectual ignorance and laziness either.

`You're the one thats being played by the politically correct liberal press.`

`Go give John Irving a call, you two can do business together.`

From politically correct liberal to Irving waaaaaaay over on the right. You`re running out of political spectrum and smears, Mr. Psychopathic Chickenhawk.

Anything is better than a little self-reflection though, isn`t it?

C`mon, you still have room to fit another shoe into your mouth.

Can`t wait for your next desperate accusation. How about Free Mason or FSB agent. ;)
00:29 July 2, 2012 by MrPC
Yes of course, an acolyte for John Irving sums you up neatly. Its pitiful watching you squirm, the shoe fits so why not just wear it?
15:56 July 2, 2012 by bartschaff
Too late in the thread, but someone has to point out that MrPC position is that of a terrorist.

He is defending the very same moral stance of terrorist attacks supporters when he says that

"There were no innocent german victims of the British bombing campaign during WWII in my opinion. The german people were Hitler's enablers during the war".

That is: all the population are the government enablers, including children, and all are valid targets. So, as the US and Europe meddle in foreign countries affairs, little is left to those militarily weaker muslins/Arabs/etc. other than "throw everything they can at the aggressors".

In MrPC's view, those people in the WTC in 9/11 just "got what they deserved", exactly like Dresden.
15:57 July 2, 2012 by Wild-One
Dresden was simply not a significant industrial or military center.
Not true

read here you might learn something:

16:06 July 2, 2012 by MydogMax
tea anyone?
16:15 July 2, 2012 by Leo Strauss

`Too late in the thread, but someone has to point out that MrPC position is that of a terrorist.`

Better late than never. :)
17:46 July 2, 2012 by bartschaff
"read here you might learn something: http://eddriscoll.com/archives/007017.php"

Wow, what an "impressive" reference: a post on an obscure blog, with long quotes from a review about a single, controversial book...
18:50 July 2, 2012 by Leo Strauss

They just keep comin`. Don`t even bother trying to engage these things, my friend-- just walk away from this thread and its negative energy. I tried to use sanity and reason but got sucked down into their darkness nevertheless. They are either Pentagon-Bots, simple trolls or products of the wonderful western Idiocracy and beyond our reach.

Gonna have my flat blessed by a shinto priest after dealing with them all weekend. :)

Be gone, evil spirits!


19:19 July 2, 2012 by Leo Strauss

Right on. Catch you on the next thread. ;)
20:22 July 2, 2012 by NisseN
"....Queen Elizabeth dedicated a memorial to the bomber pilots ­ with only an afterthought mention of the tens of thousands of civilian victims."

This sounds so fake that it's ridiculous. Is the editor so unable to be honest?

The number of dead were in the neighborhood of 400,000 to 600,000, an absolute majority of which must have been civilians since every boy past 17 was on the front.


This the editor turns into "tens of thousands ". It's just as horrendously downplaying reality as if they were hiding the 6 million by saying that in the holocaust there were hundreds of thousands of Jewish victims.

Gee, at least get the scale right if you want to have anything you write taken seriously.
21:01 July 2, 2012 by bartschaff
Thanks for your words, Leo Strauss, I should just walk away, but...

UncleVanya, don't underestimate the "meddling" of the US & Co. It's directly responsible for decades of dictatorship in many countries (South America being a good, uncontroversial example), and for millions of deaths in its wars for power (you know, to rule the world).

If that perhaps isn't a Holocaust, 9/11 wasn't Dresden either (let alone a Hiroshima) - even keeping the proportions, WTC was peanuts.

About Dresden, like anyone else in this forum I can only quote from diverse sources, mention books, etc, which can then be ignored and disregarded.. nothing to gain.

If MrPC status deserves any attention, ok, then maybe he isn't a terrorism supporter. He is just barbarian. Fortunately many societies, differently from him, have already left behind revenge in favor of justice, as well as the "they'd do it to you, you can do the same or worse to them" he cherishes so much.
15:30 July 3, 2012 by William Thirteen
well, now that we have THAT all sorted out, just one final note as it would be a tragedy compounding all that has gone before if our prize winning novelist John Irving, whatever the merits of his prose, were to be cited here as an example of historical revisionism


i suspect the individual intended for the comparison sought in the heated exchange above was historian David Irving


who has won no prizes nor libel proceedings.
20:26 July 3, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@William Thirteen

`The World According to MrPC`


`A Prayer for Leo Strauss` :)

Hey, J. Irving`s books are great- he just doesn`t know when to END them. Kind of like this thread...

Dude, thanks for your input, but straightening that reference out was the least of my worries with the madman known as MrPC/Uncle Vanya. I just referred to the guy as `Irving`- figured that finding out who Leo Strauss really was was enough of a trip for him for one day.

Hope that you and bartschaff will show up a little sooner at the next encounter.

PS Bring your own napalm. ;)
17:11 July 6, 2012 by Bruno53
Germans should NOT FORGET who started the war: Adolf Hitler and his Nazi gang! And their ancestors supported this war. It was Hitler who ordered Germans to carry out a genocidal war against the entire continent of Europe. The Allies paid them back in the worst way: firebombing Nazi Germany. Don't mark me wrong: I hate wars. But I am also a responsible reader of world history and I have to be coldly objective in analyzing it. And your ancestors exterminated 6 millions Jews [and I am no Jew!]. You paid the consequences! And David Irving is only a neonazi historian who doesn't deserve any respect.

P.S.: Want more Germans? In World War I Kaiser Wilhelm II ordered dirigibles bombings of London and Paris. And Germans had plans then of sending them accross the Atlantic Ocean and bomb New York City, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington, DC. This and the trying to push Mexico into war against USA forced then President of USA, Woodrow Wilson to declare war on Kaiser Imperial Germany and Hapsburg Austrian-Hungary Empire IN 1917. Do not forget your ugly history, Germans!
16:21 July 25, 2012 by between
I prefer Peter Hitchens take on this:


I also think the words:" We remember those of all countries who died in 39 ­ 45"

are not reconciliatory at all...but a more obvious form of disregard, a refusal to look at this crime in the face, a passive- aggressive 'we are not going to mention ..you'. The truth is that there are 2 sets of victims of this crime...those who flew the planes and those who were bombed.
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