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Party plans Mohammed cartoons 'election tactic'

The Local · 30 Apr 2012, 10:46

Published: 30 Apr 2012 10:46 GMT+02:00

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The "Pro NRW" party in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia has already shown anti-Islamic caricatures in Essen and Gelsenkirchen, though the police prevented demonstrations taking place directly outside mosques.

Police have also banned "Pro NRW", which is campaigning on an Islamophobic platform, from using the Danish cartoons that caused massive protests in the Islamic world in 2005.

But "Pro NRW" intends to send activists to 25 mosques throughout the state in the run-up to the election on May 13, staging protests in Cologne, Bonn, Düsseldorf, Aachen, Wuppertal and Solingen.

A report in Die Welt newspaper on Sunday said the far-right party intended to post around 100 what it called "Islam-critical" drawings outside the mosques.

Interior Minister in state Ralf Jäger condemned the campaign and expressed support for planned counter-demonstrations. "Pro NRW is committing spiritual arson," he told the paper.

"The party is consciously taking into account that Muslims will feel provoked and upset. The authorities will exhaust all legal avenues to prevent a xenophobic hate campaign."

The federal Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich is reportedly worried about violent confrontations with the Salafists, the fundamentalist Muslims who began distributing free copies of the Koran in Germany three weeks ago.

A report in Der Spiegel magazine over the weekend said his ministry had been in contact with the North Rhine-Westphalia state government in recent weeks to find a way to de-escalate the situation. The election there is on May 13.

"Pro NRW" campaign manager Lars Seidensticker says he did not understand the outrage over the campaign, and says his party would bear no responsibility for any violence.

"If the situation is so tense that you can't do a campaign like this against Islamist influences any more, then the politicians are responsible for doing away with Germany," he said, alluding to the title of a 2010 book by banker Thilo Sarrazin ("Germany Does Away with Itself"), which criticized Islamic immigrants in Germany.

"Mosques are potential centres of a new civil war that we have to prevent," said Seidensticker. "That's why we have to pull out the Islamist evil by its roots."

Story continues below…

"Pro NRW", which boasts 250 members, is also planning to award a cash prize for the "best" anti-Islamic caricature, named after Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who was responsible for the 2005 images.

Westergaard has distanced himself from the competition and is reportedly considering legal action against the party for using his name.

The Local/bk

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

11:34 April 30, 2012 by mobaisch
Let the clash in NRW beginns..

I miss action in Aachen, would be nice to see some action :p
11:51 April 30, 2012 by simski
Sometimes I can't help but feel ashamed for (some of) my fellow germans. Hopefully, enough people will show some Zivilcourage and attend the counter-demonstrations.
11:53 April 30, 2012 by Englishted
Police have also banned "Pro NRW", which is campaigning on an Islamophobic platform, from using the Danish cartoons that caused massive protests in the Islamic world in 2005.

On what grounds?
12:23 April 30, 2012 by mobaisch

On the ground that it is not acceptable for a human being to carry out an indecent inappropriate painted picture of another person's mother or father and camp with such picture infront of his or the mother's house.

Same applicable to carry out an indecent painted picture for jesus (being ****) and go and camp with it in from of the church.

Humans simply should stop disturbing other humans and have a life!
12:30 April 30, 2012 by BR549
Some people have too much free time...these people seem like a German version of the Westboro Baptist Church losers.
12:31 April 30, 2012 by Jerr-Berlin
Bullshit, the PRO NRW have the right to express their views...

if the Muslims are so strong in their religion, this example of freedom of speech and seperation of church and state shouldn't upset them...if it does, they shouldn't be livining in Western societies...
12:44 April 30, 2012 by the.local.reader
Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say anything in any location in any means.
13:19 April 30, 2012 by JenDigs
Freedom to disagree, have an intelligent discussion, even argue without resorting to childish name-calling or violence is supported by 'freedom of speech'. Insulting someone because you don't agree with their beliefs, inciting violence, and being generally xenophobic- these things should always be discouraged. How would it be handled if the shoe were on the other foot?
13:34 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
Is it not very hypocritical that the same people that support gay rights parades and such oppose drawing cartoons of Muhammad on the grounds that Muslims find it offensive?

You need to just face that there are some animals that commit honor killings, female genital mutilation, and killing people for drawing or saying something out loud living among you.

There is nothing wrong with people being Muslim, but there is no excuse for those that use it to justify acts we in the West consider abhorrent and Stone Age.

This group would not be interested in drawing pictures of Muhammad if it had not been for the people that did it seven years ago still have fatwa¦#39;s on their heads and have to live in safe rooms.

Maybe if the Catholic Church started being violent against everything they disagree with again. It seems to get Europe to bow down and kiss your feet.
13:41 April 30, 2012 by starsh3ro
im atheist and find it hilarious that theres always a big wave when people insult the muslims imaginary friends, but rarely when the other side insults christians or jews.
14:04 April 30, 2012 by danceswithgoats
I'm with starsh3ro on this one. Radical Germans should stick to insulting Catholics. That is how a real radical speaks "truth to power".
14:13 April 30, 2012 by mobaisch
Insulting everyone in Germany because three germany guys did something very bad somewhere is also wrong.

you are insulting everyone (including muslims who do not even practice religion and not religious at all but they have the identity still) would decrease those and increase more angry muslims.

Enjoy your racism, commentators, but you are warned! and you enjoy watching in the upcoming years!
14:25 April 30, 2012 by danceswithgoats
BTW - did you check out the photo that accompanies this article? What a crazed group of right wingers waving their "No to the Mosques" signs and German flags. Better crack down on them fast before things get out of control.

mobaisch - what "race" is a Muslim? You are accusing a lot of people of enjoying "racism". That is the same as calling someone who protests the Catholic Church a racist. Ridiculous.
14:30 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
mobaisch - Do you not understand there are people that are worried about a Muslim uprising? That is one of the reasons they want immigration to stop and all this taboo around the religion to go away.

If it was possible to make Islam compatible with Western values there would be no problem. Needless to say this is not possibe. Making Western values compatible with Islam is not what the working class Westerners want.

As danceswithgoats stated, this is not racism. This is like saying we do not want Nazi's ruling Europe. We do not want Islam running Europe.
14:37 April 30, 2012 by MaKo
It's a typo of Freudian proportions: "Far right party on the campaign trial". (I like it, Local, I like it.)

But I think that once again, it's Germany that's on trial here, too. What actions can or will be taken to prevent a "political" party from inflammatory stunts such as these? Will Germany act to protect the rights of Muslims to worship in peace, i.e., without being confronted by these boorish vermin so close to the mosque?

I really hope that taxpayer Euros won't be wasted protecting the pro NWR from the potential consequences of their actions.
14:52 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
Mako - So you feel physical violence is justified?
15:26 April 30, 2012 by danceswithgoats
CensorThis - note how a couple commenters have indicated that violence will be their just due. This is a disturbing view. On one hand they assume Muslims will be violent (stereotype) and that violence is acceptable against the unprotected classes (rightists).

I need to go look at the "Puppy Strangling Artist" article and see if anyone thought that the artist deserved to get attacked.
15:57 April 30, 2012 by Al uk
Veiled (no pun intended) threats from mobaisch (12) and a condoning of violence by mako (15)

Typical leftists and how hypocritical they all are.
16:12 April 30, 2012 by michael4096

"If it was possible to make Islam compatible with Western values there would be no problem. Needless to say this is not possibe."

Even though there are 4 million muslims in Germany doing exactly that?

Maybe I should stick a big drawing on your front door - free speech and all that - now what could it be a drawing of...
16:31 April 30, 2012 by maxbrando
Leftists always feel that violence is justified in one of their leftist causes. Yea, let's sock it to 'em.
16:36 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
@michael4096 - doing exactly what? Most of the Turks are "Muslim", but non practicing and more Westernized. I have friends that would be offiicially classified as Muslim, but do not believe in it. Even in Turkey they are having problems deciding whether or not they are a secular country.

I do not know if you heard about what some of the other Muslims were doing. Last I heard they have been planning things like September 11th, shooting Americans at the airport, making bombs in Offenbach, etc . . .

Maybe you should take a Koran from the big give away on the streets and toss it in the garbage like you would a bible.


Do you know anything about Muhammed's teachings, or his life?
16:39 April 30, 2012 by Englishted

If you have seen these cartoons then you are wrong ,they are not indecent and should and in fact are not banned some of the Muslim cartoons of Jews are obscene.

"Enjoy your racism, commentators, but you are warned! and you enjoy watching in the upcoming years! "

This is one of the reason people do not want Islam to grow in Germany.

Plus how can it be racism? Islam is a religion not a race.
17:07 April 30, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Here are some nuggets for everyone fromthe German constitution.

Article 4 [Freedom of faith, conscience, and creed]

(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom to profess a religious or philosophical creed, shall be inviolable.

(2) The undisturbed practice of religion shall be guaranteed.

Now it could be argued that having a bunch of hard line right wingers showing up where you pray with an offensive cartoon telling you to get out, might be considered as a violation of the right of undisturbed practice of religion.

Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

So speech is free unless it violates someone else's right to personal honor.

So it seems that this stunt would illegal if they as planned decided to do it in front of mosques. If they decided to do it some where else, it would be dickish, but possibly legal.

At the end of the day its 250 people out of 18 million trying to get publicity by being dicks.

No need for the hot heads. Life goes on.
17:14 April 30, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks
I must say I am truly shocked that none of the people who supported Gunther Grass have not blamed Jews and Israel for this, yet?

Of course, Grass could not accept the idea that freedom of speech means if you open your mouth, prepare to be criticized in turn, and he started having heart problems from the stress.

Hey - How about that Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt? They want to change the law allowing you to have sex with your dead wife for up to 6 hours after she dies, if elected. It's called "Farewell sex."
17:21 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
@LiberalGuy - Where do you stand on the Occupy Wallstreet issue? I do not care for bankers, nor the Occupy Wallstreet movement. Do you think the bankers honor is being questioned?

At the end of the day . . . . This would be a non issue if Islam was a truely peaceful religion. When it is well known they act like hot heads and threaten to kill people over cartoons, they need to calm down. And no, life does not go on if you are "too Westernized" in a Muslim family.

Germany is going to be like France or London pretty soon.
17:50 April 30, 2012 by LiberalGuy

On OWS I don't have enough information to make an opinion. I tend to stay away from American issues as they anger up the blood. But OWS ormy opinion of the matter is complete irrelvant when we are talking about the German laws and constitution.

At the end of the day this is a pretty non issue. These guys are infringing against the basic law of Germany, so what more do you need to know? If they don't feel like obeying the law then they need to talk to their member of parliment or move.

And whats wrong with London or France? Is it the crime? Its not as bad as Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, Philadelphia, New Orleans, any where in the mid west... I could go on and on.
18:11 April 30, 2012 by marimay
Germans are weird.
18:29 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
@LiberalGuy - OWS is not an American only movement/issue. Everything that is happening in Europe right now is also based on banking.

I have yet to understand what you mean by them infringing on a basic German law. How is protesting the immigration of foreign culture in general an attack on an individuals honor? The German law is meant to protect the individual.

An example is you not being able to legally take a picture of an individual without their permission. If you take a picture of that person in a group of people it is no longer an issue. (That is at least how I had it explained to me)

Libel and slander are also not permitted.

I have a hard time believing you are as supportive of Scientology as you are of Islam. You act as if you are just merely stating your opinion and do not really care about the issue, but you need to ask yourself if that is truely the case. Why do you have a bias to this issue? Maybe deep down you know it is not as light an issue as you play it to be.

These people are not protesting because the people at the Mosque are brown.

When I mentioned France I actually meant Paris, where the suburbs are no longer French. Multiculturalism does not benefit the host countries culture, it uproots and destroys it. People are waking up to the fact that not all immigrants want to blend. Many second and third generation often cling harder to their old country/culture than the first generation.

Rather than expierence the third world in your own country, maybe some of these people that so badly desire should go somewhere else to get it. It is most the world after all.
18:29 April 30, 2012 by siba
I always feel sorry for those non-germans who only read the local and think that it says anything relevant (!) about germany. here you can be sure, no matter how small and irrelevant a group is, as long as it deals with some right-wing issue you will read it here. This is just a tiny group of stupid people à la tea-party who get nowhere true recognition but here. good that they get isolated. in contrast to most other western countries, Germany will remain free of right-wing parties in the parliament.

why does the local does not report on REAL issues? tomorrow will be the first of may - the day of work(ers), 1000s of left-wing demonstrations, but no word about this here.
18:34 April 30, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ CensorThis

"This would be a non issue if Islam was a truely peaceful religion."

If we consider historical data, Christianity is arguably the most violent religion. If we look at recent information, the latest study ordered by the German Minister of Interior show that almost all Muslims reject violence and believe that terrorist are not good Muslims. You cannot hold accountable a whole religion for a couple of persons like Breivik. I also doubt that Christians would like to be identified with the thugs from Pro NRW.
18:42 April 30, 2012 by siba
.... and good comment, ChrisRea!
18:44 April 30, 2012 by CensorThis
@Siba - maybe you did not see the link I posted. This is going on throughout Europe and has been for years. There are several books written on this also, one titled "While Europe Slept" was written by a gay liberal that writes for the New York Times. He saw things in Norway back in 2007 that pretty much predicted people like Breivik appearing.


@ChrisRea - I am not saying Christianity is a peaceful religion and we all know it has a bad history also. My point is if Muslims did not get so worked up over this there would be no issue with it. Even the people on this forum that are arguing pro Islam are alluding to violence that will take place if people disagree with Islam.

Please explain how the data on "almost all Muslims reject violence" was gathered . . . Are Muslims allowed by religion to beat their women?

Their relgion is not just their religion, it is everything in their lives. You same people are the ones complaining that the Catholic church is infringing on your freedoms by having days of the year when everything is closed and you are not allowed to dance.
18:55 April 30, 2012 by LiberalGuy

everytime i have an exchange with you or someone else i always have to repeat myself as you don't seem to take the time to read everything I have written. Its frustrating. So try and keep up.

Article 4 [Freedom of faith, conscience, and creed]

(2) The undisturbed practice of religion shall be guaranteed.

As I said before (which you would know if you read it) it could be argued that having a bunch of hard line right wingers showing up to your mosque being a dick and telling you to get out (which is what the article says they are going to do), then it could be aruged that infringes on your right to practice your religion undisturbed. As I said before if they did it somewhere else itmight not be illegal. It would be the same if a bunch of muslims turned up to the Berlin Dom and starting wiping their ass with a bible. It could be argued as infringing on that right.

Now as far as the OWS, well it is being predominately plaqyed out in America. Not on my doorstep so its a bit out of sight out of mind for me, and I'm not going to go digging for information about it as I'm sure you are aware that banking regulations are different here than say the USA, thus the semantics of the issues are different.

Yes I am sure you are shocked that you saw a brown person/muslim in Paris. And I'm sure there are people who don't like it. But I think its a great city no matter what color it is.

As far as muslims inciting violence, go sit with the Dynamo Dresden Ultras at an away game. I've seen and heard far worse from them than your islamic boogeyman.

Scientology. Not my thing. But it doesn't mean I'm going to have apublic viewing of the movie "The Profit" on their doorstep.

Why is it so hard for you to realize that no matter what yourmotivations are, being a dick is being a dick. I should know. I'm more than guilty of it
19:01 April 30, 2012 by siba
@CencorThis: Your arguements are not based on any scientific data. And also a gay liberal can write non-sense.

You should read sth. about the social contruction of problems or othering. Islam is a good example for that. Once the Jews were THE problem, and today THE Muslims... There are true challenges of societies like the growing gap between rich and poor, youth unemployment... Let's talk about the REAL problems.
19:18 April 30, 2012 by nomadams
Religion is poison.
19:44 April 30, 2012 by ChrisRea
# CensorThis

You can find the whole study at http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Broschueren/2012/junge_muslime.pdf?__blob=publicationFile. The scientific methods used are detailed in pages 33-43. The part where the Muslims distance themselves from violence and terrorism can be found on page 647 (for example).

"My point is if Muslims did not get so worked up over this there would be no issue with it." - well, I am not Muslim, but I get worked up over this issue because I think movements like Pro NRW can escalate to bring new Nazi times (just as siba wrote, back then they had a problem with Jews, now they have a problem with Muslims).

And yes, I think that when the Catholic church dictates when the shops should be closed, then they infringe on my freedom and I wonder when will be really separate the Church from the state.
19:46 April 30, 2012 by Hicham1st
How would you feel if I make a caricature of a person you love? Your mom? Your dad? Your daughter? Your wife? Your little baby? I believe in the freedom of speech but not to the extent of hurting others, when freedom exceeds its limits then it is no more freedom. As said above, earlier the Jews were the Problem, now the muslim and tomorrow God knows who!
19:50 April 30, 2012 by Sayer
Where is the outcry around the world? There is NO difference between this and protesting outside synagogues. None.
22:05 April 30, 2012 by ovalle3.14
Some people want to CTRL ALT DEL the hell out of this country.
00:34 May 1, 2012 by jeff10renatus
Why does Germany coddle muslims? In the US, a fundamentalist Christian group demonstrates at the funerals for US killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, carrying signs that read that this is God's punishment for the US becoming a heretical state.

This was very upsetting to the families and friends of the deceased soldiers. So, some filed actions in courts to have injunctions issued against the fundamentalist group requiring the group to maintain a certain distance from the church or graveside service. The group appealed such a court-imposed restriction. The case went to the Supreme Court of the US and the SCOTUS ruled in favor the fundamentalists.

This almost reverent respect for freedom of expression & speech is why a communist (with its Stasi secret police) or nazi party never could get a footing in the US. Germany still seems to have the authoritarian/totalitarian mindset that leads to overbearing, if not dictatorial governments.

Until Germany recognizes that freedom of speech and expression are more important than certain sensibilities, it seems to me that Germany always is at risk for reverting to the bosom of an overbearing state and this is just a stone's throw from an authoritarian state, which is just a skip-hop-and-a-jump from a dictatorship.

One threat to the freedom of Germans is a minister who describes freedom of expression as "spiritual arson." Such a minister is a greater threat to freedom than the NRW.
08:40 May 1, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ jeff10renatus

You brought up a good example of cultural differences. What the common sense and the laws allow/not allow in Germany is different from what it is in the US. It is not that one culture is better than the other - they are just different and, in the end, shows the power of personal choice. In my case, it might be that I am living now in Germany also because I identify myself with the Constitution quoted by LiberalGuy and which does not protect the fundamentalists from your example.
09:42 May 1, 2012 by gorongoza
Comment: I am an observer outside the fighting ring. Its very interesting to see people trading insults over the issues of religions and what not. But sadly these people seam to tickle on the fringes of the real issue - the big issue. None seams to have the courage to tackle it head-on. Here is the real issue. Human beings from time immemorial have exhibited traits of domain dominence. Nobody wants to be dominated in his sphere of influence: the area he considers his own. But because of the interdependence that evolved with time among the human beings these spheres of influence are rendered irrelevant - and that is where the whole issue lies. As human kind we have only two, and I mean definitely one,two options. Each human kind should remain within the bounds of its territory: no trading, no communication, no getting over the border to other nations and no peeping over the border to see what the other nation is doing. The other option is to admit that no nation can exist alone and hence forget about who does what in which country. If you think I sound absurd then tell me your solution - or else stop lamenting and admit you are one helpless part of this dysfunctional world.
10:23 May 1, 2012 by siba
@ jeff10renatus: exactly your arguement is used by fundamental right-wing groups and nazis. they even victimize themselves as "the new jews" by having no say in society. That's how it all started....

so you rather protect the nazis than the minorities? freedom is such a variable concept.

In the US there is freedom of the powerful and the rich, and look at the tea-party where it brought the US. But you should see that minority protection means freedom for the minorities having the ability to leave in peace without discrimination and violation. AND, btw, social security and free health care means freedom for the poor also to participate in society.

The US there is also the freedom to own a gun - taking into account that there is no western country where more poeple are killed by guns...

So freedom of one group means no freedom for the other... A society has to build up values and norms... otherwise there is no civil society.
16:15 May 1, 2012 by thetimeisnow
This is what Muslims want: Natives fighting back. Then they can begin the civil war phase in Islam's war against all non-Muslims:

Google search ¦quot;civil wars in the world¦quot; then research each individual civil war and you will find one common combatant in 90% of them: Muslim extremists. Muslims are involved in civil wars in China, Russia, Bosnia, Cyprus, Macedonia, Israel, Pakistan, India, Indonesia-Ambon & Halmarhera, Côte d'Ivoire, Kashmir, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Kirghizia, Nigeria, Philippines, Somalia, Turkey, Chechnya, Sudan, Yemen, Thailand, Uganda, Azerbaijan and East Timor. Muslim extremists fight against other Muslims, Zoroastrians, Copts, Hindus, Jews, Christians, animists, communists, Buddhists, Sikhs, pagans ­ no other group is involved in civil wars so much.

-8/09 Bosnia Muslim leader Mustafa Ceric declared Christian Serbian Muslim-majority territory boarding Montenegro as Muslim homelands. The same Muslims we saved from ethnic cleansing by bombing Christian Serbs in the 90's are now claiming more Serbian land.

-8/20/10 AsiaNews, Kashmir: Extremist Muslims are demanding Sikhs convert or leave.

-8/23/10 Reuters: Since 2004 Muslim extremists have killed 4,000 Buddhists in southern Thailand, which they are claiming as Muslim homelands.

-7/5/11 Daily Mail, London: Islamic extremists have called on British Muslims to establish three independent states within the UK.

-10/4/11 AFP news, Philippines: ¦quot;The government had previously warned that Umbrakato posed a serious threat to efforts aimed at ending a Muslim insurgency that has left an estimated 150,000 people dead over more than four decades.¦quot; Muslims want their own independent nation.

-1/3/12 Reuters, China: ¦quot;[Muslim] Uighurs in Xinjiang rioted against Han Chinese residents in 2009 and at least 197 people were killed, according to official estimates.¦quot; Muslims want their own independent nation.
18:32 May 1, 2012 by jeff10renatus
@Chris Rea & @ Siba:

Your comments are both very disappointing and frightening to me. Your bottom line is that it's okay for the gov't to decide what types and kinds of political speech and assemby are to be allowed in society. Such an attitude puts both of you on the road to serfdom.

A German constitution that doesn't protect all free speech (the issue isn't protecting the group; the issue is protecting free speech, freedom of assembly, etc.) is a worthless constitution. If the right were to accede to power, then such laws could be passed to prevent leftists from demonstrating, assemblying, and otherwise engage in typical political discourse.

When the law deems some speech acceptable and other unacceptable, then such a country isn't a nation of laws. Rather, it's a nation of men (in the sense of humans, not gender).

Your comments are frightening to me, because I now see how dicatorships arise in a society. Left or right of the political spectrum, totalitarianism/authoritarianism is bad. Such German restrictions upon free speech and assembly are no different than what China does to suppress dissent.

I suggest that you both read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Daniel Goldhagen. It might frighten both of you, because you'll see that your type of mindset is what gives rise to dictatorships and suppression.
22:22 May 1, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ jeff10renatus

I am sorry for frightening you. Apparently you do not posses much knowledge about how free speech is protected by laws of diverse countries. US law, for example, clearly states obscenity, defamation, incitement (including that to to riot or imminent lawless action), fighting words, fraud, and speech integral to criminal conduct as cases when free speech is not protected. Does this make US dictatorship-prone? Or, as you put it, does that mean that US is not a nation of laws and its Constitution is worthless? I would have expected you to support such a case based on laws like the Patriot Act (which, for example, allows the FBI to intercept communications without a court order), not the ones related to freedom of speech.
23:39 May 1, 2012 by lewis69
I dont belive in violence and hate but I understand why every one is so against this whole multicultural thing governments are doing.

The fact it that in every country in Europe the white population is going down because of the baby boom but it will level off if governments put more priority on child benifits and other means of increasing the birth rate.

I read a few weeks ago on The Local that in a few decades that half of Oslo Norway will be of immigrant decent and the same can be said for most citys in Europe because liberal and center left governments dont care about if our proud people have a future or not on this Earth.

No other race is in danger of being bread into a minority in the lands they have lived on for thousands of years. I just dont think that we should just roll over and die because its considered racist to speak out against multiculturalism.
00:02 May 2, 2012 by jeff10renatus

Thanks for stating the obviously irrelevent. It's quite clear that the topic is political free speech and right of assembly. Might it be that your lack of ability to discern the topic might be why you favor restrictions upon free speech and the right of assembly? You'd be right at home on the politburo of China.

In other words, for you to compare free speech in a political context to laws governing crime is silly.

And yes, I oppose laws governing what the gov't deems hate speech; however, in the US, such speech isn't per se illegal, as it must be in conjunction with another crime, such as assault.

BTW, point out one US law that prohibits the use of "fighting words."

09:10 May 2, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ jeff10renatus

You might want to (re)read the articles of the German Constitution posted by LiberalGuy. They clearly show that Germany protects free speech unless it is against other people's rights guaranteed by the Constitution (just like in the US). Please let me know if you still have problems processing the information.

Regarding fighting words, we are talking about Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942). U.S. Supreme Court said: 'There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality."

Please let me know if the above are too complicated for you to grasp. I will then rephrase it with simpler words.

I also hope you are not American. Your ignorance regarding the laws of the country would be painful.
09:22 May 2, 2012 by danceswithgoats
As expected? anticipated? the Salafists commited acts of violence. Three policemen and a bystander were injured. Spiegel has the article. The interesting thing is that probably half of the Salafists look like Germans converts/reverts. I say reverts because fundamentalist Islam believes that all persons are born Muslim. I say interesting because this ideology can seemingly motivate Germans to commit violence in the name of religion. I thought Germans only commit violence in the name of Football.
11:01 May 2, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ danceswithgoats

What article are you referring to? If by chance it is http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,830844,00.html, then it is a slightly different story. The article is about a Salafist demonstration in Cairo attacked by couple of dozens people. According to the CNN report, the attackers appear to be military dressed in plain clothes, as besides stones and cement blocks they used tear gas rifles. The demonstration was against barring Hazem Abu Ismael from the presidential elections. So, at least this time, the Salafists were the good guys (I do not condone their view of jihad).

As a society, we have respect the different religions and in the same time to keep a vigilant eye on fanatics like Pro NRW, Islamic radicals and others like them. Violence knows no nationality or religion.
11:17 May 2, 2012 by michael4096

"Religion is poison"

No! Religious fervour is poison. There is a lot of poison on this thread from people not claiming a religious position in the classical christian / islam sense. However, they claim to 'know the truth' regardless of the all the evidence pointing to the exact opposite. They 'have faith' despite others pointing out their silliness. That is the poison.

For example, CensorThis believes that he knows islam better than 4 million muslims in Germany (#21) and so it is alright to insult them and be afraid of them. It's only one example, there are many more.
13:41 May 2, 2012 by danceswithgoats
@ ChrisRea


Look at the accompanying photos.
17:37 May 2, 2012 by CensorThis
@michael4096 - You have difficulty with your reading comprehension if you believe my argument breaks down to that.

Please point out what the horrible insult that I, or the people demonstrating the growth of Islam in their country have commited. Keep in mind political satire is an everyday occurance in Western society, but seems to only now be taboo if it is directed at groups that tend to act out when offended.

If anything the personal insult comes when people try to label you a "racist" or "bigot" to silence and discredit you. You act as if people do not get upset when Eastern European immigrants migrate. I remember how upset people were about the crime wave in some parts of Heidelberg due to Polish immigration.

You have outrage over people standing in a designated protest spot with cartoons, but not at all for the violent group that shows up with a bag of rocks.

Calling all 4 million Muslims in Germany "Muslim" is like calling me "Mormon". I may be considered Mormon, but I am not Mormon.

Also, please give the names of some Muslim countries that stand out as the achievements of their culture and what it represents. Last I heard Chechnya is on path to more suite their values.

I was not always like this. I once also questioned whether or not I was a member of the greatest civilization on earth. I believe I am. Western civilization. Maybe one day you will wake up and realize the same thing. Ask a true Muslim what they think the greatest civilization on earth is and see if it matches your ideals. Also ask what they think the role of Sharia law should be in Europe.

Religions that turn the cheek and only prey on their believers do not bother me at all. Religions that hope to dominate and enforce their beliefs on the rest are what I have issue with. The Mormon church does this in Utah. Utah is bareable, but no majority Muslim population country would be.
04:00 May 3, 2012 by jeff10renatus

Two thiings: First, you're not a lawyer. Second, if you were, you would've shepardized the case and found that the 1942 case cited by you not only is no longer the law in the US, but wasn't the law in many states outside of the State of NH.

So, comprehend that.
14:07 May 3, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ jeff10renatus

Thank you, you made my day! :) If we are to relate to juridical studies, I guess your post could qualify as a test to begin the Common Law 101 course :D.

Last time I heard, US law was had a common law system and that means that stare decisis applies. I feel that I need to use simpler words for you, so here is the "translation": decisions of a court are binding upon all lower courts. If I am not mistaken, the Supreme Court is the highest in the US. As there was no reversal of the decision, the answer to your little test is that the case cited is still the law in all US states.

The importance of the above mentioned case is that legal control over certain categories of speech (such as offensive words or pornography) do not violate First Amendment guarantees. Pretty much similar to the German laws regarding free speech.
15:13 May 4, 2012 by zeus21ish
why is it that muslums are so much trouble in the west,if you don't like us then please go to arab lands,i'm sure they will house you,let you riot & pay you all the benifets you receive here.
19:06 May 5, 2012 by jeff10renatus
@ Chrisrenal:

Thanks for a bunch of sophomoric crap lifted, pretty much, verbatim from Wikepedia. If you believe that free speech in Germany and the US is the same, then you're ignorant beyond redemption.

May Germans display any nazi symbols? In the US, this is allowed; in fact, the American Nazi Party marches and is protected by police from leftwing demonstrators when so marching in demonstrations. May Germans deny any aspect of the holocaust? Of course not, but in America, such a prohibition on free speech is forbidden.

Anyway, is it time for you to put on your clown suit and rejoin the circus?
09:27 May 6, 2012 by ChrisRea
@ jeff10renatus

Oh, I see you ran out of arguments and started with the personal attacks. You have my sympathy.

"If you believe that free speech in Germany and the US is the same" - no, they are not the same, they are similar. The laws are similar, but not the same. Not everything that is a crime in the US is a crime in Germany. The opposite is also true.

Because of its history, Germany is more severe when it comes to Nazism. Similarly, US is more severe about issues related to the skin colour (also because of shameful parts of its history). Can you see the differences and the similarities?
20:56 May 7, 2012 by Stuart1977
Shameless as are their blood brothers in Austria the FPO, how do they get away with this Nazi garbage.
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