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Should cops target black people for ID checks?

The Local · 28 Mar 2012, 14:27

Published: 28 Mar 2012 14:27 GMT+02:00

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The ruling emerged from the case of a young black German man who said he was so sick of repeatedly being asked for his ID in his own country that he refused to do so without being given a good reason.

The Koblenz court ruled that the police were justified in using a person’s appearance, including skin colour, to decide whether to check their ID, provoking outrage from the man and his lawyer. One human rights lawyer told The Local the judge was not fit for office.

The young man on the train, who asked not to be named, told The Local he had been stopped and asked for his ID many times – and that the humiliation of this happening repeatedly in his own country had made him furious.

Although it might seem logical for police carrying out spot-checks to select people on the basis of their appearance, doing so is likely to alienate those Germans whose skin is not white.

The UK and US have a long and bitter experience of minorities who become alienated by police racial profiling. Is it worth the damage that such policies do to society? Or is it justified in the hunt for people breaking immigration and residency laws? Have your say below.

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Your comments about this article

15:43 March 28, 2012 by ms_djpurple
This is a difficult issue..

I experience this usually on the train.. where some people looking foreign gets checked by the police..meanwhile others don't. from my point of view... why don't the police just check everyone on the train which passes the boarders..like the ticket checkers..who checks everyone.. I guess that will solve the problem.. EVERYONE gets checked!!! I mean you cant really 'guess' a persons nationality from their looks nowadays.. so EVERYBODY must get checked!!
15:55 March 28, 2012 by kofiflay
I have experienced this myself on my way from Frankfurt to Berlin, I was the only one in the cabin who was asked for id, my wife sitting next to me wasn't asked because she is not black :(
16:47 March 28, 2012 by freechoice
go ahead and check all you want, but do it many times to the same group of people will generate unwarranted anger against the local authorities. i guess this is how terrorists were born?
16:55 March 28, 2012 by elboertjie
If police has the right to ask everyone for their papers, they have the right to ask anyone in particular.

The chances are higher for someone being foreign if they look foreign than for someone to be foreign and look German. Thus the police is increasing their odds of finding illegal foreigners by asking only people who look foreign and thereby do not spend time on people yielding a much lower rate of being illegal. If the police wish to finish all the train wagons, they have to apply such spot-checking procedures otherwise they would only process a few wagons.
17:04 March 28, 2012 by Philosophe
I assume that it is not only black people, but also "people of colour", who are likely to be targeted by the police in such circumstances. The underlying assumption - and core problem - with this approach is that it implies that to be German is to be white. That is not only obviously factually extremely erroneous, but also a potentially very dangerous notion to be circulating, as this country well knows.

The only other possible perception that permits this behaviour by the police is the notion that most if not all illegal immigrants are "people of colour". Slightly less dangerous as an ideology perhaps, but no less factually incorrect than the first interpretation.
17:48 March 28, 2012 by boopsie
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:45 March 28, 2012 by boopsie
Of course its a british thing. You don't think british cops profile? Of course they do everyday as it makes sense.
19:00 March 28, 2012 by ovalle3.14
Why should people be treated different before the authorities based on looks?
19:10 March 28, 2012 by michael4096
The police performing spot checks, whether it's immigration, fare-dodging or drink driving, should select people on the basis of probability based on experience. Quite correctly. It's my money they are using to do it and I want it done the most efficient way possible. (Even though that means I get stopped quite frequently leaving beer gardens by car.)

It's racism only when they target races but there is no greater probability of their target being what they are checking for than anyone else.

@Chango - you really don't know much about your own country. British cops have more freedom than almost any other country in Europe - and they use it liberally.
19:16 March 28, 2012 by Englishted
@Chango Mutney

Having no "papers" is the reason G.B. has such a problem with illegal immigration

and benefit fraud.
21:13 March 28, 2012 by chicagolive
Guess most of you commenting are white....so lets get the blacks commenting me myself and my co-workers get stopped all the time. For bull literally we are officers so we know this crap the Germans pull really well. On several occasions we did test on the trains and it is shocking the level of racism.

Once we placed a one black in each car in a ICE train on the Munich corridor. several well dressed put in front of him a white colleague who had a beer or other let me check you effects. One person we even placed a white smally baggy next to him and the black guy in front had a hoodie. The polizei only checked the blacks on the entire train of 600 people only the blacks.

As a side note there was also a few people on the watch list and they did not control them at all and the police passed them several times. I was also with my wife and children and as usual the blacks where controlled they did not even look at my wife(not German not black though either)my oldest son. Was watching them and he asked why do they only check people like us every time and not anybody else are we bad daddy. Now some white people in this forum try explain that out to a black child why, and no doing a Michael Jackson is not a option
22:35 March 28, 2012 by ovalle3.14
With laws like this, I can't understand how people don't integrate here!
22:37 March 28, 2012 by puisoh
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
23:14 March 28, 2012 by mrcontinental
Police have become more of a nuisance than anything these days everywhere and need to do something to justify their paychecks so this is the best they've got. They have yet to say how many people have been apprehended and how many have been deported. Probably none.

I notice the neonazis, Hells Angels and other assorted MC do pretty much what they want without police intervention. It's far safer to pick on commuters on the train I suppose. TSA stateside would be proud of this policy. As would the fearless traffic cops stateside who spend their day writing soccer moms speeding tickets while criminals walk the streets with impunity.
23:22 March 28, 2012 by ags1234
This is an unjustifiable/ irrational/ insensitive/ judgment.. Such judges need to be taken to another continent (Asia or Africa) and made to pass through a similar situation. Then they will realise how bad it feeels. I too had a similar experience on an ICE from Gottingen to Munich. Two police men entered the compartment en-route and came just to my seat and asked for ID, inspite of the fact that there several other passengers in the train.Unfortunately, I was the only Asian in that compartment. The most humiliating thing was that all the eyes in the compartment were looking me suspciously and curiously as one of the police men stood beside my seat, while the second one went to the other side of the compartment to call someone to verify my id.. Those moments were certainly one of the most disgusting moments in my life... and the only moments when I really felt bad about being in Germany!!
23:25 March 28, 2012 by jleigh
I've seen this happening many times! The polizei get on the train and consistently pick out non whites, requesting to see their papers. In protest I once asked them to also check my ID. As I'm white they just laughed and moved on. Under schengen rules, police are permitted to perform random ID spot checks. This is clearly not random! Also, in the 10 to 15 times that I've seen this happen I have never seen them 'catch' anyone, let alone terrorists or illegal immigrants! ;) All they do is bother and humiliate law abiding citizens of the 'wrong colour', whose hard earned tax money is ironically probably paying their own polizei salary. If the police want to catch illegal immigrants, they could start by ID checking the hard working black man who serves them at Dunkin' Donuts, or the babysitter, who patiently looks after their kids. But we wouldn't want that, would we? :) If this practice is somehow protecting me, I'd like to know from what exactly? So called illegal immigrants? Well I don't need that kind of protection thanks! And terrorists are not going to be put off by some ID checking. It seems to me the polizei need to review this practice and start chasing real criminals.
00:33 March 29, 2012 by federale86
Racial profiling is both effective and appropriate. The left hates it because they know that it works.
01:08 March 29, 2012 by boopsie
Well said federale86.

"So called" illegal immigrants jleigh? Lets hope they all move into your neighborhood and stress your schools and hospitals. When that happens I think we'll hear you singing a different tune.
06:50 March 29, 2012 by Tony2u
This is a simple case of the "easy wrong versus the hard right". Spot checks by their very defintion should be sporadic by nature which includes everyone. If you target dark skin people then you are not doing your job.
08:10 March 29, 2012 by Big L
The reality is that cops use crime statistics in making decisions like these. No group simply gets targeted for no reason.
11:48 March 29, 2012 by LecteurX
It took ten years for the German police to track down the culprits of the "Zwickauer Cell" who had been on a killing rampage for a decade. Now, with such decisions, I guess it will take them another 20 years to arrest other white criminals... let's just target the "foreign-looking" ones, sure. Even the Greek and Turkish victims of the Nationalsozalistischer Untergrund were considered to have been shot because of alleged links with some criminal underworld, because, y'know, that's what foreigners do, right?

Sad that Germany is not learning a lesson after this terrible sstory.
12:11 March 29, 2012 by gorongoza
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
12:35 March 29, 2012 by Peepopaapo
@ gorongoza: Ahh yes and in the United States of America all black people are treated fine and there is no racism at all... "evil Germany" is the only country in the world where you can find racism, anti-semitism and right-wing parties. Countries like Saudi-Arabia are embracing all Christian and Jewish people. Keep on living in your anti-German world...
12:50 March 29, 2012 by gorongoza

Ahh yes Paepopaapo, the Germans emigrated to the USA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:02 March 29, 2012 by kofiflay
Why am I not surprised, the white man has always been fighting the black man. Even when the black man lived peacefully in his native land controls like this were subjected; typical example is apartheid South Africa and even up to date.....

I now understand why many Africans believe in God, because one day judgement will befall on evil men......

and I must say, I believe some people hide behind a computer to make the Germans look very evil, I don't think these people are Germans themselves at least considering the ones I have met.
13:06 March 29, 2012 by gremar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
13:37 March 29, 2012 by Hicham1st

''I think it is inevitable .. but like it or not, I think black Africans are a far less threat than Arabs, even the light-skinned ones.''

Why? what's wrong with the Arabs? Another media brainwashed fellow is talking here.
14:02 March 29, 2012 by boopsie
>> Why? what's wrong with the Arabs?
14:08 March 29, 2012 by Hicham1st
@boopsie: Ask 'puisoh' they have got the answer for us.
15:19 March 29, 2012 by chicagolive
Wow, these comments pretty much prove some of us right. How much Germany has not changed since Hitler. Banning in a since speak of racism has in turn given it more power here. It is extremely high here except that it is not legal to really speak it out. So we have subversive racism which is much harder to fight than direct racism like in the US.

Being a officer the stats for criminals is more WHITE than black, but it is easier to point fire at the black person in the room than it is to actually do your job and go through all the white people. Most terrorist are not some black from lower Africa but Arab or local born, but hey its the Federal Police(Stasi 2)we talking about so they would rather the US and the Brits tell them where the real criminals are in there country so that they can focus on those there coloured people.
16:31 March 29, 2012 by boopsie
Hitler has nothing to do with this. Blacks are more visible than whites in a mostly european crowd and more likely to have immigration issues. Any accusation of racism is simply red herring. By targeting blacks at the border or on trains and planes the police are simply doing their job.
17:23 March 29, 2012 by kofiflay
See someone defending Hitlers actions OMG
19:01 March 29, 2012 by christopheuk25
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
23:55 March 29, 2012 by chicagolive
@ boopsie see how little informed you are. Blacks make up one of the smallest groups in Germany. The groups that make up most of immigration illegality are Poles, Russians, Turks, and most of eastern Europe but since checking them actually means work. Polizei just choose the blacks. The majority of blacks in Germany are either US Soldiers or war babies in the easiest way to put it, who by the way are all pretty much German citizens.

Just give it up the Polizei besides being racist are totally incompetent if some other country does not point at the dangerous groups in Germany the Polizei mostly miss it. If they find a group with teeth that ain't scared of them they all run with there tails between there legs.
01:17 March 30, 2012 by gorongoza

Judging from your tirade it sounds like you are so shalow-minded that you can not fathom the depth of this issue. I doubt if you are of the search-targeted colour. If so my conclusion is that you are still fast asleep:only a 15 pound hammer may wake you up.

Can't you see where this targetted searching is leading to - especially that it has been publicly announced although ( effectively ) it was ever there? Ofcourse if you have been in Germany for over 15 years leaving in a closet then you can not expect to be searched - you were obviously in Ausland.

Wait and see:now that the cops have been issued with a blank cheque they will give you gas if you dare come out of your closet. Probably that is when you will wake up - never mind how smart you may be or how clean your pappers are - as long as you are black.
04:13 March 30, 2012 by CinemaNoir
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
04:41 March 30, 2012 by Runnerguy45
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07:23 March 30, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Stats don't lie.

09:15 March 30, 2012 by gremar
@gorongoza: " I doubt if you are of the search-targeted colour." I don't like fishing, but you obviously sure do... Anyway, what you don't know won't tickle your fancy. What is a colour? Are you living in Germany? Do you belong to the, er, "colour" you speak about? If Germany is such a problem for, why don't you just up and leave? As far as profiling goes it's prevalent in every country. Living in a closet? Like I said before, what you don't know won't tickle you, keep yapping like a disturb chihuahua.

"Stats don't lie"... *chuckle*... oh dear... "blacks", and the closet moths keep munching away.
09:37 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
@chicagolive..you cant seem to write a coherent sentence ,what are you babbling about?

Anyone invoking Hitler or the Nazi Era into this particular conversation obviously has a problem with this country, and should just pack up and go live somewhere else.

@runnerguy 45. and @ cinemaNoir...

I agree with your statements, but the last time I used a similar argument ,I was censured and my comment removed.
10:39 March 30, 2012 by Legal E
Work colleague over from India, with other colleagues got stopped at Hbf Munich the other day and was asked for Passport by plain clothes police. They seemed only to check non whites, however, it was in light of a raised alert post France. He did add however they were extremely polite, showed their IDs first, on checking passport on reason for being at Hbt then moved on.
11:12 March 30, 2012 by chicagolive
@ Legal E at least you got some polite ones LOL

@ Michael R Okay sorry to hurt you let me PC just for you they have not changed in decades better.

The fact you say you agree that blacks make up most crimes in Germany already shows what you would do with a cross and a sheet is that sentence better for you.

The simple issue is that German police are afraid to go after the hard criminals when they show up they call us.
11:38 March 30, 2012 by michael4096
Did you know that The Local readers are 'targeted' for being searched on exit from the Munich beerfest?

It's true! Most beer glass thieves speak English, Italian or Polish and the security guys and gals target people speaking these languages for spot searches. So groups of of English speakers such as The Local readers are stopped where Germans are not! WE'RE ALL VICTIMS!

Silly? I think so. But, that is the level of argument being used here. The topic is looking for illegal immigrants. If people were questioning whether or not these guys should be looking for illegal immigrants then some of the arguments might make sense, but given that that is not the question they don't.

@chicagolive - thank you for your personal experiences but before anybody thinks that it is somehow par for the course in Germany, I offer my wife as a counter example. After 15 years here the only time she has been targeted was to get her telephone number. From your posts you obviously like looking for trouble and act suspiciously; have you thought that this might be a contributary factor to you finding so much trouble with the authorities?
14:22 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
@chicagolive....either English is not your native language, or your a semi literate at best. First you babble about Nazis , now its the Klan. As far as black crime is concerned,no one ever said they commit the most crimes in Germany as such.I think the focus here was that wherever large numbers of the black community live ,the amount of crime they commit accedes their population numbers.This is especially true in the USA as well as the UK. As pointed out before, statistics are not racist, they're bloody STATISTICS.

Now go and finish high school.
15:16 March 30, 2012 by boopsie
Well said Michael R
15:52 March 30, 2012 by Johnne
I think people like Micheal R, boopsie, and the rest of you scared insecured racists belong to prisons in Africa and Asia. If you look around where ever you live, you´ll find out that God is in support of the power shift the world is experiencing today. Gone are the days when Africans and Asians are being enslaved and colonized. And honestly, the days are numbers for this act of extreme discrimation and outhright racism. Here is a message for you empty head racist loosers here, the Police will not get away with picking on black people and asians for long. Racists like you will still learn that the more you fear & hate us and look for ways to humiliate us, the more those fears and hate hunt you, eat you up from inside and destroy you. God bless black people!!! :-)
16:07 March 30, 2012 by Almirante
The USA is having its own racial arguments now whether the Hispanic (named Zimmerman) was justified or was criminal to shoot a black male teen who had (allegedly) assaulted him.

Just as in this issue you discuss about Germany, hotheads on both sides want to win the argument by volume and insults, not logic and cool inspection of the facts, the numbers, the evidence.
16:10 March 30, 2012 by Minitaff
Who would have thought being a realist means you are a racist!!! @johnne and chicago, give it a rest with this 'oh us poor people of colour', if I felt that I was being marginalised by a country that i was living in then I would return to my original country, its common sense, you dont like it.... Leave !!
16:11 March 30, 2012 by Almirante
To Michael R:

Before you criticize others' education, learn to spell the contraction "you're" and the verb "exceed."

Glass houses and all that...
16:17 March 30, 2012 by Al uk
Just read post 47 and lmao. Johnne and his ilk always the victims and they are not shy or slow about bringing out the trump card and screaming "racism".
16:33 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
17:23 March 30, 2012 by JohnnesKönig
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
17:38 March 30, 2012 by Minitaff
@almirante. Isn't your use of punctuation incorrect? Especially when you are emphasizing a corrected word by using quotation marks. Just a thought, maybe i'm being pedantic or possibly i'm wrong...
18:05 March 30, 2012 by Johnne

Who wrote anything "oh poor black people" you better shut up and enjoy reading people´s comments if you don´t have anything constructive to contribute here. Black people ain´t playing the victim card here, we´re warning empty headed racists that we won´t take any nonsense from them, the Police, or anybody for that matter, and reminding them that we are extra sensitive about how we´re being treated as people of colour in OUR OWN COUNTRY!! learn properly my friend. Anybody who misbehaves will face the music and the law. Maybe you don´t know that there are European Constitutional and Human Rights Courts in neighbouring France, Belgium and Holland. So, sometimes we won´t wait for some backward thinking imcompetent low level illiterates Nazis in uniform that call themselves the Polizei and some few racist judges like the one in that court in Koblenz the chance to disrespect us. We don´t have much time to waste. We will fight you by book, by words, and by law and we will win. We´re not only protecting our rights, we´re fighting racist bastards with it, and we are taking it unconditionally comprende?? :-))
18:13 March 30, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Having stayed away from these threads for some time, it's quite disturbing to return to find the levels of vitriol, xenophobia and racism having increased almost exponentially. It's disturbing but not surprising, and it's certainly demoralizing.
18:27 March 30, 2012 by GeeAitch
As an African who travels frequently to Europe incl Germany, I understand why the German police do this. It is EXACTLY the same in Africa.

In Kenya, police check on people with Somali or Congolese appearance.

In Mozambique and South Africa where "black" Africans are a chocolate colour, they stop those with very dark skin who are more likely to be from West Africa.

And police will ask white people for ID in places like Angola or Burundi.

So when I am a minority in a country like Germany, I expect to be stopped, but the German police are always very nice about it, and that's not always the case when I get harassed elsewhere in Africa.

Those who complain are just too sensitive.
18:34 March 30, 2012 by Al uk
@johnne read GeeAitch's above post and learn. And you are playing the victim card that is clear.
18:56 March 30, 2012 by Gustav Jung
What next - a check to see if you are Jewish - and then .....
18:59 March 30, 2012 by boopsie
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
19:19 March 30, 2012 by Johnne
@Al uk

Shut up!! who is talking to you? Don´t you EVER address me again EVER.

Now as for the African brother you´re refering to his comment, he is talking about foreigners in those countries not "foreign looking" in Germany. He visits this country as a visitor or tourist but for me, this is MY country but I´m black...did he say they pick on white South Africans in South Africa? you see this is how you put petrol into a burning fire. Maybe you don´t know that Africa is a huge continent and we know the Xenophobic brain washed ones that still run on some colonial mentality. It´s not like that in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroun, Ivory Coast, Togo, Benin or Senegal. In those countries, you are even more respescted and treated better than natives..especially if you look white, arab, asian or latino. I´ve traveled to those countries and traveled all over the world..I´ve lived in the UK, US, Belgium, Holland and have been to the Asian tigers. I know what he´s talking about....ask yourself this question my friend, are you a Western democracy? or an Angola or Kenya. Es ist Deutschland hier! "mate" so don´t compare our complaints with his comments. Get out of my country if you´re looking for a racist haven because honestly, average Germans are good people and they are against this type racism practised by the Polizei in their country and you know what?? They hate the Police for it! :-))
19:30 March 30, 2012 by sfd69
As a Black American and entertainer, I can assure you this policy does more harm than good. The science has shown that such practices aren't even effective, a matter of fact they have the opposite results. Also, by stating that police can target Blacks for illegal activities as a general policy, rather than as part of a specific crime, you ARE saying that people other than Blacks DON'T commit crimes. Of course that is ludicrous- I read the German news every day due to all of my friends living there, and I see that crime knows no ethnicity... Puzzling that Germany would go this way, considering the respect it has as a logical, pragmatic, forward thinking country.

Good luck.
19:37 March 30, 2012 by JohnnesKönig
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
20:13 March 30, 2012 by kofiflay
Bloody liar talking about South Africa, I bet you never been there, you don't have the least idea how South African blacks are treated in their own country and don't ever lie white people are checked. Thats a bloody liar
20:48 March 30, 2012 by Zephyr_Max
@Johnne, Let me start off with saying that I am a white South African and I have first hand experience that racism is a two-way street, the black people here are extremely racist toward white citizens and tend to do so openly and freely without any prosecution from authorities, this is obviously rooted to the apartheid era. The thing is that the dominance of this racism is spawning from black teens born after the apartheid era and they enjoy the benefits today that are stripped from white citizens for example BEE (black economic empowerment), free water and electricity, free education, tax exemptions etc. (they never had to sacrifice anything - yet still play the victim).The propaganda spouted by figures like Julius Malema aggravates these issues and presses the untrue mindset that all whites are racist. When in fact white people are cornered and blamed for past atrocities they had absolutely nothing to do with and are now paying for it, this again is coming from experience. And as for your idiotic remark on the Xenophobic attacks in S.A arising from a "colonial mindset" if you bothered to do any research you would have seen that the Xenophobic attacks were committed by native African People rioting against Zimbabwean citizens (also black) stealing all the jobs and willing to work for much less than would suffice a substantial income in South Africa because they send the money straight to Zimbabwe where it appreciates literally 1000 fold to feed their families still under Mugabe's rule. White people in South Africa tend to stay below the radar and i think this could probably be said for most countries because white people are always made to feel guilty for every other tribe or nation and past grievances like WW2 and apartheid always tend to be the crutch of choice for the so called minorities long after retribution and reparation efforts have been made. I know this is slightly off topic but how dare you try use your own fabricated stories in order to justify your obviously flawed argument, you are obviously not as quite well versed and traveled as you like to think. End Rant
21:12 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
21:14 March 30, 2012 by Zephyr_Max
To add i must admit I have never been checked for my papers, this is a rare occurrence for most white people as it is almost a non-issue in South Africa for white people to illegally immigrate here although many a time i have seen police pull-over vans piled up to the rafters with North/West African immigrants from Nigeria, Zimbabwe and Mozambique etc seeking work. The police need to enforce the immigration laws in that regard as the laborers depend on the opportunities which the immigrants swipe. That said... I have to agree that the checking of legal papers needs to be in context of the problem relating to that country, if Germany is experiencing excessive immigration crime from foreigners I believe they have every right to profile the most common suspect which happens to be non-European people. They are merely protecting the interests of the country and as many users have repeated if you don't like it LEAVE! If you are a black German citizen it is also in your interest that that the police strop the immigrants from swarming the country and causing the development of slums and job theft as well as crime in general violent or petty, it is still your country is it not?
21:29 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
@Zephir-Max.. you are absolutely correct .They should all watch a Chris Rock ( a black American comedian) clip on Black people. I too am sick to death of certain non whites playing the race card at every turn, blaming us for everything.

Take a look at President Obama, here is an articulate leader who just got on with it instead of whining about the evils of whitey.I voted for him and will do it again, but I cant stand these loud mouthed Ghetto blasters and their endless tirade against those that are more successful. Get a clue from the likes of Bill Cosby instead of that brainless gangsta rap crap.
21:31 March 30, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Accept racial discrimination as a way of life or leave. That's pretty draconian, Max. It reminds me of the old American right wing "love or leave it" mantra during the Vietnam war. Nothing racist about that at all, is there Max? Oh, that's right -- you're writing from South Africa. So what is your particular interest in German immigration and racial profiling issues? As an immigrant living in Germany I'd like to know.
22:15 March 30, 2012 by Zephyr_Max
Well @Prufrock, not that its any of your business but I feel I should entertain you. I have family in Germany and have recently received a job offer, so to answer your rather patronizing and poorly initiated question my interest stems from the possibility of also becoming an immigrant, I feel it would irresponsible to not be informed of the issues surrounding the place I may want to live in. That said you have completely misunderstood the point of my argument. "Love it or leave it" is not the bottom line. Rather the point is that if a specific country has a specific problem that is being addressed in a manner which may offend a group of people, the affected have every right to voice their concerns, BUT when they chose to dredge up the past and jump straight into the territory of name-calling specifically of white people being racists because the profile of a said suspect is non-white that in my mind is deemed as racism toward European people. I would argue that the identification of the illegal immigrants is more like self-preservation of the state not a race and therefore not outright racism, besides an illegal immigrant is not specifically African, Asian or Arabic. The German police identify possible suspects by appearance and language so yes white people could also be asked to prove their legality and if they have an issue doing so they can choose to go somewhere else where illegal immigration is not an issue, they have that luxury being in a first world country. The police cannot smell immigrants they cannot wave a magic wand which will point out "the bad guys" so rather a more reliable way would be to identify people who seem to be foreign. And why are you not questioning the motives and interests the American and British writers on here is it because you are too scared you may actually need to justify your bizarre argument
22:25 March 30, 2012 by maxbrando
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
22:42 March 30, 2012 by Michael R
@maxbrando............outstanding fact laden comment. Thanks !
23:36 March 30, 2012 by chicagolive
Uh max slow down there because it is the Great Anglos/Aryans if thats better that brought most of the destruction to most of the world. People where pretty peaceful till your forefathers showed up on the scene wanting to take what did not exist in Europe which is alot of nothing.
23:52 March 30, 2012 by Prufrock2010
@Zephyr_Max -- I was making no argument, bizarre or otherwise, but rather posing questions, primarily relating to your statement: "if Germany is experiencing excessive immigration crime from foreigners I believe they have every right to profile the most common suspect which happens to be non-European people. They are merely protecting the interests of the country and as many users have repeated if you don't like it LEAVE!"

Ignoring for a moment your false premise that "if Germany is experiencing excessive immigration crime from foreigners I believe they have every right to profile the most common suspect which happens to be non-European people" (surely you have facts to back up that assertion?), you have answered my questions. You are white, and you believe that racial profiling, which is by definition invidiously discriminatory, is acceptable police conduct. Hence you have defined yourself.

And for your information, although I have just returned to these threads after a lengthy absence, I have questioned the motives of at least one American writer who shares your racist views. I am not afraid to ask questions or to discuss issues in a civilized manner with anyone. As an immigrant who lives in Germany, I am dismayed when xenophobes and racists seek to export their brand of bigotry to this country, particularly when they don't live here, pay taxes here or contribute anything of value to the society. As for those of that ilk who do live here, whether they are natives or immigrants, it is even more appalling.

I trust that the court ruling in question here will be overturned, either in the Constitutional Court or at the EU level, and that Germany will find a way to enforce its immigration laws without resorting to racist practices.
23:54 March 30, 2012 by chicagolive
Like I have said before most of the crime comes from the east of Germany not from the South. Last I checked there are hardly any blacks east of here, but the polizei are afraid to go after those guys.
01:30 March 31, 2012 by mastiboulance

".did he say they pick on white South Africans in South Africa? you see this is how you put petrol into a burning fire. Maybe you don´t know that Africa is a huge continent and we know the Xenophobic brain washed ones that still run on some colonial mentality. It´s not like that in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroun, Ivory Coast, Togo, Benin or Senegal. In those countries, you are even more respescted and treated better than natives..especially if you look white, arab, asian or latino.°

- I fully agree with you, i have nothing more to add to the above comment

I'm from Cameroon, i lived and worked in South africa and Germany.


Why don't u just shut up? Go spread ur lies elsewhere, are u not even ashamed?

Are there more racists in this world than the whole of white south africans?

Why are u not talking about PW Botha, but talk only about malema?

Why are u not talking about white south african men fantasizing on black girls with big booties, but ashamed to be seen with them?

Why are u not talking about the so called white club, pubs or bars not allowing blaks volks in?

Why dont u mention the white boers killing our black brothers and defending themselves by saying that they thought they had seen monkeys???

Hey i just realised that im just waisting my time writing this. u are too wicked to realise how racist u are...
01:48 March 31, 2012 by explore_ffm
No matter how logical it may sound, no country has the right to be insensitive or discriminating against a particular community. The judge ( a learned man i presume) , should have ruled "appearance and suspicion" should be the basis of spot checks and not colour. It is obviously left to the discretion of the police officers to decide what is suspicious, and the burden to prove "suspicion" is also on them, should they be sued like in this case.

I am apalled that a Judge could actually say this and there are people defending it. This is as serious a crime as ethnic cleansing as you may not kill a community here but you kill the collective dignity . And as juvenile as a Judge in israel saying that all Germans should always be under observation as they kill jews ( and am sure someone can produce historical data for this)

NO community, White or Colored can be discriminated against legally, regardless of any Stastitics / Data / Analysis being against them. The key essence of modern judicial system is that not a single innocent should be persecuted even if tht is at a cost of few criminals being let go. Socially racism and reverse racism will always exist till we reach a point where everyone is mixed.Ignore-move on-fight

I am ready to bet my last dime, the Judge has not heard the final verdict on this. Obama and the rest of the civilized world would like to have a say. And if Germany allows this, we need a Martin Luther King here.

And there is no question of me leaving Germany(actually i love it here) , till you sell me your last coffee maker and your last car, and my country allows equal rights to you to do that, you have to give me equal rights to live here. And i will fight for them.
09:26 March 31, 2012 by HerLinder

are you an American? I would think so, by the way that you respond...."if you are unhappy with the treatment you receive, too bad. Just get out......." that is basically what you say. Well, I say to you, shut up. people who are saying they are being targeted by racist police officers must be listened to, or we can all return to the times of the police state. From what I read in many American papers you do have a nice little police state nation there now, since 9/11. all abuses of civil rights are justified by the story that giving up civil rights is a small price to pay in exchange for added safety. You need to understand that it may be you who is next in line to be profiled, then it won't be so convenient for you to marginalize the issue.
09:53 March 31, 2012 by Johnne

I read the first paragraph of your comment with interest but you later messed it up. It´s a pity because I know many white South Africans in the UK and we´re good friends as ex-colleagues etc and I know many working in Nigeria. If you´ve been to Nigeria before, you´ll find out that what I said about colonial mentality running some African soceities is totally correct because you´ll see that Nigerians don´t feel threatened or feel victim as black people (except the niger delta) because they run their own shows, work hard with high entreprenuer spirit and are well educated. But more important, they see white people or westerners as partners..and they want to grow plus they are very very ambitious. The richest black person and richest African is a Nigerian (Aliko Dangote) you can find out yourself. And they have the concentration of the highest black millionaires in the world. Even though there´s problem of corruption, they see the British and Americans as brothers and it has really helped them grow in free market capitalism, open mind and open society especially in the south...they´re not threatened at all and that´s the mentality I have as well.

I run my own company and I employ native Germans. Yes once in a while one stupid cop asks me for my ID without reason, I am angry and I want to do something about it IN MY COUNTRY!! please what´s wrong with that??!! You see, black people in South Africa have problems with you because your ancestors went to cause huge problems there with their apartheid ideology, spreading Xenophobia and endemic racism. For decades, your ancestors created havoc and established hate. Today, what the black South Africans are suffering from was caused by you. Your disease of racism, insecurity was passed to them during the apartheid period and they are angry. You see, me too can tell you that the best thing for you and your people is to get the hell out of that beautiful African country & that you and your ancestors never belonged there...you´ve always wanted to take but don´t give back. Greed, imperialism, racism and insecurity have always ruined you but I won´t because I see you as an African but of course you´re white! My friend, I am a German and I am an African. A very proud one and I run my own show here and in Africa. If you see me, you´ll know that you´re wrong to even interfere in Germany´s affairs...you´ll be surprised my friend that I am more European than you. My own grannys are mixed white American, Carribean and Nigerians. I have all sides in me so I know exactly what I´m talking about. Even though I don´t support black people in South Africa with their Xenophobic ideology, I believe your ancestors infected them with this terrible disease.
21:13 March 31, 2012 by prashanthslogin
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
21:51 March 31, 2012 by Michael R
@chicago and Johnny...you two N W A ?
01:15 April 1, 2012 by Prufrock2010
@prashanthslogin -- As you purport to be an Indian, I'm surprised that you would make such a comment. Have you never experienced discrimination because of your color or nationality? I'll ignore your absurd generalizations about immigrant behavior.
01:43 April 1, 2012 by jbrown85004
Someone above me made the comment that Germany is not just white people anymore. I understand a bit of his point because of inmigrants, but let's face it, it is a white country. Will there ever be a majority white country left in 100 years? Do you think that is good or bad? I mean, we defend the extinction of animals, can we protect a race from extinction? You never hear that x African country is not black, do you? And if you did, would the speaker be saying it with a sense of pride o sadness, because it seems most of the people that say things like that (Germany is not a white country) seem to be proud of the fact. If any country, and blacks or brown countries do it too, is trying to reduce illegal inmigration can a reasonable person tell me how can they do it? Because stopping everyone is not a practical approach. I am very proud of my heritage as any other people on this lovely planet called earth is. I am white and proud of being so, but why am I judged through a different prysm when I tell people tha?. Society today exalt everyone elses race or ethicity, but whites, somehow have to keep their pride down at the risk of being judged unjustly sometimes. How about celebrating everyone differences but not in the silly way of cultural diversity. Show me a country where diversity is preached, and I show you either a white country or a mostly white one. This cultural diversity myth is the most divisive remnant of the last century. For all of you, think about this, why should a company get a new employee that came from another corporation, and once he/she started working on his new job tries to change everything that has been working before and made the new company successful. We would never allow that in business, why then, allow it in a much larger scale, like countries. If you come to my house you will behave the way I find it appropiate or I will alsk you to leave. Your country is your larger house, asking your guest to behave appropriately is very little to ask. In the end I will leave you with the words of a socialist-marxist french philosopher, Jean Paul Sartre: "Democracies will self destroy from within". Sadly is happening right now in front of our very own eyes because we do not have the strength to stand up and say, we are right!
11:21 April 1, 2012 by michael4096
hi Prufrock, welcome home

I don't know how much you know about the case behind the headlines but it centered around the question of whether, when asked to do explicit spot checks for illegal immigrants, based on his experience, on a route commonly used by African immigrants, an official should be allowed to use external appearance such as skin colour as one factor in choosing those to check. The court ruled that he should - indeed, that he wouldn't be doing his job as defined if he didn't.

It would seem to me that the racist aspect here is not the official or the court decision but that controls for illegal immigrants are 'experience' spot checks when what you are looking for has racial bias. Checking everybody or true random checking are fairer but that was neither the question before the court nor an option for the official. Simply overturning the court decision as you suggest would not really help (unless the officials then revolt and force a new job description :-)

And, such a solution would be anathema to posters here as there would then be no excuse for a good rant with perennial nazi jibes thrown in for good measure.
11:29 April 1, 2012 by explore_ffm
@ Jbrown - ur nick here and ur ethnicity kind of clash :-)

Ur thoughts are so preglobalized world. People dont just get employees from other companies - they get them because they NEED them. And once these guys have joined , they have to be made comfortable if they have to be made productive.This happens in business all the time. My company started French cuisine in cafeteria , when the numbers justified it. Imagine you being one of these guys, and u being picked up in the company all the time when something goes worong, how would you feel ( even if history was against you ) , to top it now company makes a policy where it is normal to pick on you. You can quit or fight. Fighting is justified on the grounds that this company promised you certain things it is not delivering.

Your argument about predominantly white Vs color countries is juvenile and economics illiterate. Obviously most developed countries are white ( i dont want to go into historical reasons and ruffle more feathers here, but it has got to do something with the invention of gun pwder)So now most job oportunites are in these white countries and they need people of color. if they want them here they have to ensure harmony and hence cultural diversity is preached. White poeple dont want to work in lesser developed color countries and hence they are lesser in numbers there. But it is out of their OWN choice. Couldnt you manage with your own people? you could, but then they would have to buy all your coffee makers and cars.

It is a mutually agreed controlled flow of labour and goods. And India and China are the biggest markets Both Non-Whites.Your products enjoy equal status in all countries then why not people of these countries enjoy equal status in your country.

Yes , you are right , illegal immigrants is a problem evrywhere. But in NO other country there is a law where people are picked up for checks on the basis of their color (officially). Asylum is a political statement, any country offering this gains a lot in terms of international diplomcy, so it has to find means to deal with conseuqences

Not allowed pride of being white??? But why should you be proud of something that wasnt even your choice or involved any effort.What you confuse with pride , is the assertion of equality by people of color. Obviously ones who have been historically considered superior and have been enjoying favorable conditions.dont need such an assertion. And I dont think any one in this whole wide world grudges anyone pride in his country and heritage
11:54 April 1, 2012 by JohnnesKönig
I like it! I think it's great!
16:47 April 1, 2012 by boopsie
Second that.
20:41 April 1, 2012 by Minitaff

I'm slightly confused as to why my comments in someway give you the impression that I am an American????? I think that's rather prejudicial and an uneducated generalized comment,isn't it??? Just because I don't agree with what you seem to think racism is, I am therefore an AMERICAN! Step in here cousins from across the pond!

I think if you ask most Irish,English,Scottish,Kiwis (they are from New Zealand), Ozzies (I don't mean the ones from East Germany, I mean the ones from Australia) and many many other international folk, to look at my name i.e MINITAFF they will explain to you where I am am from!! Oh and answer your absurd question, NO im not American!

Du unwissender Höhlenbewohner !!
21:29 April 1, 2012 by asindum
Many blacks have their experiences to share & I too.

Some unscrupulous policemen are now using the guise of security checks to practice racism.

Judges at the Koblenz administrative court, your verdict is baseless!

Show discretion and dispense justice correctly!

Quote: ¦quot;Because only spot checks were possible on such trains, the people selected could be chosen based on their appearance, the judges ruled.¦quot;

Mr Judges, why is it that in such scenarios, blacks are always victims?

Bundes Police, your effort to fight criminal acts, maintain peace and security is laudable but it is time to stop and say No To Racism!!!!!

Germany is international ­ let¦#39;s be cautious in the way we approach people.

God Bless Germany
21:30 April 1, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Hi Michael4096 --

Thanks for the welcome. I haven't been gone, but I've stayed away from this site for quite a while. It's good to see you still around as one of the few voices of reason on these threads.

As to your point, I believe that even if racial profiling is the official policy in policing certain routes looking for illegal immigrants, it is still violative of EU law. It may arguably be effective (which I doubt), but it is nonetheless odious, invidiously discriminatory and demeaning to all people of color. I believe that, if challenged, this law and these tactics will not withstand scrutiny in the German Constitutional Court. Of course I could be wrong.

It is interesting to see how the levels of racism and xenophobia have been ratcheted up on these threads in the past year. It's almost like being in the USA.
00:26 April 2, 2012 by thelamarvelous1
A lot of the ignorant people who think that this type of profiling is good for the cops to use are only saying it because as of right now, they are not the victims of it. The problem is (no matter what your opinion of it may be) that these methods do not stay the same.

So today they will be profiling blacks, but in the future they will be profiling blacks, and goths, after a goth massacres a school. Then, they will be profiling blacks, goths, and young people, after the government determines that more young people are rioting over the lack of social security for their retirement years, starting in the year 2050. You see if we allow this debauchery in the German courts to go unchallenged, you will then have to hope that the scope does not turn toward you one day.

and I don't know about you, but I would not like to leave my life situation to chance - (in this case, the chance that I too will not be targeted one day, in an expansion of the trampling on the rights of others).
01:40 April 2, 2012 by boopsie
@ thelamarvelous1

You'll have to weight those sentiments against the likelihood that you might one day become a victim of someone who the police failed to profile. Are you saying that the police should be forbidden to profile jihadists before they get the chance to set off a bomb?
03:55 April 2, 2012 by Turtlez
Look back at history we're supposed to learn from our mistakes. That goes for the entire world. Looking at America's past you can assume that singling people out due to skin color will lead to nothing good. The way I see it, it will only anger those that are targeted, along with their sympathizers, and cause conflict. Of course they shouldn't target people because of their skin color! That's quite insulting and just ineffective. They'll just find themselves checking the same people. Little progress is made with such a system. Anyways, I would think illegal immigrants would do what they could to make themselves seem more German and less foreign which is why "random" checks based on appearances is just illogical.
09:49 April 2, 2012 by HariboFTW
To make the checking of IDs more efficient they could make the dark skinned people sit at the back of the train and the whites sit at the front.
13:13 April 2, 2012 by b4stuttgart
Gestapo practices? Efficient use of Polizei time? Xenophobia or tolerance? Lessons forgotten from World War II? This from a country who does not use race to categorize it citizens?
16:54 April 2, 2012 by Renee_123
What else is new? It's not as if Germany does not have a history of singling out their minority populations for some extra special treatment. They can't do it to the Jews anymore, so now it's onto the Turks, Blacks or whatever OTHER group they want to demonize.
18:10 April 2, 2012 by gorongoza
Comment: I am sure this Koblenz judge was articulating the law of his land - Gemany. If this kind of judgement was against the law he would not have made that pronouncement : that its OK for the German Police to target blacks on the basis of their skin colour for ID checks. I presume it will be a futile effort for anybody black to challenge this law on the basis that its descriminatory in nature. I am sure it was not by mistake that it exists in the German Law. Be it that you are a black German citizen or just a black person living or visiting Germany your complaint against this law may fall on deaf ears: infact you will be deemed ant-German because you will be opposing their legal law. But I suppose the German government can do all black people the following favours: 1) at all their embassies in Africa, USA and the Carrebian they should put up posters with the words: ALL BLACK PEOPLE VISITING GERMAN WILL BE SUBJECT TO ID CHECKS because of your black skin. 2) to all black people currently in Germany, inform them officially that DUE TO YOUR BLACK SKIN YOU ARE SUBJECT TO TARGETTED ID CHECKS. This way the black people, wherever they are , will not be shocked by these searches and the judgements. Personally I will have great respect for the German government if they so explicitly state their position. There is no need for a government to HIDE ITS TRUE COLOUR.
19:16 April 2, 2012 by 9900lawre
'Sir/Madam, I have reason to believe that a person/persons matching your description were involved in an incident that we are currently investigating. To help us eleminate you from our enquiries please could you verify your identity!'

That is the only line that should be needed and justified to the person/persons being stopped. By using this method of police tactical questioning no offence is implied or caused by either the statement or the stop!
22:09 April 2, 2012 by doc holiday
Heres an idea if your afrikan live in akrika. If your Chinese live in China. Once we started mixing it all up we have had problems. Ironically we never seem to have these issues with whites going in masses to non white countries. Why is that? I'm tired of all this liberal propaganda. We are different for a reason and should live seperate. It's refreshing to hear this ruling.
22:46 April 2, 2012 by boopsie
Sorry doc, but that kind of anti multikulti thinking is not politically correct. Go stand in the corner.
22:56 April 2, 2012 by doc holiday
Good point people don't like it when you rock the boat. Even when your right. Just listen to the liberal media and believe everything your told to believe.
23:34 April 2, 2012 by Prufrock2010
It must be frustrating to be a white supremacist in a world in which you're the minority. I even know some black people who know the difference between "you're" and "your." Of course they made it past the fourth grade.
23:49 April 2, 2012 by LiberalGuy

I put this article up earlier. I think you would appreciate it

01:46 April 3, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Thanks, man.

The abstract makes sense. I'd like to read the entire article. I wouldn't expect those to whom it applies to be able to comprehend it, though, given the level of their commentary in this forum.
03:06 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
Yes, we all can see how smart you are LiberalGuy. Heck, your overwhelming brilliance is shinning right there in your forum name for everyone to see. You've even got an article in Psychological Science to confirm how much brighter you are than those that disagree with you. Funny!

I have to say, you guys are a riot. Really. And Prufrock2010 demonstrating that he knows the difference between you're and your. You couldn't make this stuff up. Would it be impolite to say how entertaining the political posts in this forum are?
03:46 April 3, 2012 by doc holiday
That's right make fun of my spelling because you have no real logic behind your reasoning. I'm a minority huh? Two of the greatest economic powers in the world (Germany and the united states) happen to have a overwhelmingly white majority. But if you watch the tv or read the paper you would think that whites are the minority. When did 10-20% of the population become the majority? I thought a democracy was based off of the idea that the majority opinion prevails.....why does the media constantly push the minority?
07:59 April 3, 2012 by HariboFTW
This is a very bad policy. Anyone who is for it should consider what is really important to society as a whole.

Some arguments 'for' are valid within the context of what they are promoting.

Efficiency and transparency are laudable qualities but but the policy needs to be a sound one in the first place.

This policy allows police to discriminate on race without being personally accountable and that is a slippery slope which should be avoided at all costs.
09:13 April 3, 2012 by LiberalGuy

Stats don't lie.

That's the catch phrase everyone is using to justify their positions on here isn't it?
10:38 April 3, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Anyone who believes that white people are in the majority on this planet is hopelessly beyond the point of attempting to reason with. I suppose that explains the delusional white supremacist views they cling to.
11:38 April 3, 2012 by Michael R
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
12:15 April 3, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Well, maybe centuries of European colonization had something to do with the creation of these white utopias. From reading these threads, I'd say that those who are complaining the "loudest" are certain white folks who just can't seem to reconcile themselves to the fact that they are in the minority and forever will be. And as global economic paradigms are shifting, it would be shortsighted to ignore the emergence of China, Japan, India and Korea as economic powerhouses. These are not exactly white populations.

Ad hominem attacks against Liberal Guy are certainly beneath a man of your erudition and perspicacity. And I don't know what a "misguided leftist" is. Could it be someone who foolishly believes in principles of human rights, racial equality, religious and sexual tolerance, respect for women, democratic values and equitable distribution of wealth? Someone like the Dalai Lama, perhaps, or Martin Luther King? I thought those were bedrock American values., enshrined in the Bill of Rights, but then I could be mistaken. America is moving so quickly in its race to the bottom that it's hard to keep up these days.
12:17 April 3, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Jeez Michael R, lighten up. It¦#39;s just the comment section of the Local. I (like you) am just another faceless username in the cyberspace world. If you think anything you say or do on here makes a difference than you¦#39;re an idiot.

In my time here I have learnt there are only a few constants.

DerExdeutsche will complain about the left and Obama.

Boopsie (and all his previous incarnations) will complain about Muslims

Michael4096 will try be a voice of reason

And I will on occasion be a dick to people who I disagree with.

But at the end of the day, the world goes on much like it has these past years. The only thing that changes, is how much traffic The Local gets. Though if I were an advertiser I¦#39;d be cautious against spending money on a site (judging by the comments) attracts such a xenophobic following. Anyway I digress.

If you really want to make a difference, stop whining here and get out into the community and make a difference. Otherwise lighten up. It¦#39;s not the apocalypse.
12:24 April 3, 2012 by dan2510
nothing new for me to hear this!. I raise up in Germany.and I know the games .
12:53 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
Thats right Michael R, lighten up! Like LiberalGuy. Got it? - LIBERALguy. He says its not the apocalypse! Unless of course you or your family happen to get caught on a train or bus when some jihadist tries to make a statement with his uzi. Or you have trouble paying the rent or school fees because your paycheck reflects the diminished value of labor in germany due to legal and illegal immigration. But that won't be any skin off LIBERALguys nose, he's got his and he'll continue to urge you to get out there and make a difference while your quality of life continues to decline.

LIBERALguy is a good name. Liberals are very liberal in deciding how you should live your life whether its good for you or not. His arrogance like all "liberals" in casually throwing around words like xenophobia and racist prove that he's not to be taken seriously. At least until he finds a new name at which time I'll give him another chance.
13:38 April 3, 2012 by LiberalGuy
So Boopsie, my point about wasting your energies on the futile pursuit of constantly commenting on the Local was lost on you?

Chin up. It'll come to you.
13:51 April 3, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Boopsie, you never fail to disappoint. If you object to being characterized as "racist" or "xenophobic" you might avoid publishing racist and xenophobic comments. Indeed, you have no difficulty vilifying others for being "liberal" when they espouse commonly understood liberal principles. Since you use the term "liberal" as a pejorative, and applying your form of "logic," how then can you be taken seriously when you attack another by casually throw around the term "liberal?" That's a rhetorical question. You don't have to answer.

I sincerely hope that you don't encounter any jihadists with Uzis on your evening commute. That would be most unsettling.
13:57 April 3, 2012 by michael4096
@haribo - "This policy allows police to discriminate on race without being personally accountable and that is a slippery slope which should be avoided at all costs."

Actually, the court decision was exactly the opposite. That the cop cannot be accountable without being racist.

Or, put simply: if you don't want cops to discriminate on race then stop asking them to.

However, as checks like this are not just allowed but used extensively in just about every country in the world, this is not a German issue but a general human rights issue. If you want to enforce some racially biased policy, such as any immigration control anywhere, using spot checks, you cannot allow your officials to choose whom to check and make them accountable for the results without making them 'racists'. You must first remove their accountability by for example removing their ability to pick targets or by not caring how 'good' they are at the job.
14:38 April 3, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks
The Local finally found an article that 100 people reply to, and it does not involve Adolph or the Nazis. 50% Congrats!

If it had not involved, indirectly, the war on terrorism, it would be 100% congratulations!

Good Job!

Truth be told, the reason you do not want to single out people for race / color/ religon is because they become alienated. Ask the French in Algeria... they killed over 1,000,000 Algerians in about 10 years (1953 - 1963) but still lost the war because they alienated the population by such tactics. If you read about this war, you will understand why the USA screens everyone, not just arabs, at the airports.
15:39 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
Of course you don't like my commenting on The Local LiberalGuy. Typically, LIBERALguys are all for free speech except when they don't like what the other guy says. Then of course the other person is "wasting their energies" in disagreeing with someone who is smarter than they are as proven by, what was it... Psychological Science Today?

You're hilarious LIBERALguy. Good luck with your "commonly understood liberal principles".

@ Prufrock2010

Those folks in France last week found it very unsettling to encounter a jihadist with an uzi last week. How very crass for you to make a joke about it.
15:58 April 3, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Boopsie, boopsie, Boopsie. we'll try it a third time then. I'll go slow so you can keep up.

I (as in me, the person writing this comment) do not (zero, nil, in no way what so ever) care what you (this refering to you, Boopsie) write (scribe, chalk, or shout from the roof tops). I (again refering to me) just think (cognitive use of my grey matter) that if you (again, you) are trying to change the world (society, humanity, or Earth), through the comments section of The Local (this fangdangled website we are on) is a pretty pointless (much like this comment) exercise. But yet, you carry on. I can only hope you put as much effort in changing the world for the better as you do writing your comments here (sometimes even arguing with me when I haven't said anything), otherwise. What's the point?

Now feel free to say whatever you want. I'm going to go make a coffee and watch some 80's action movies (your Uzi comment made me think of Lone Wolf Mcquade)

16:24 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
For someone who does not care whether or not I write here you protest too much LiberalGuy.

Going for coffee is a good strategy when you have no substantive reply. But good luck with lone wolf Mcquade. In this day and age it might be better if you concerned yourself more with foks like Lone Wolf Muhammad Merah. But of course that would be politically incorrect. I wonder how many of his victims thought that as well.
16:35 April 3, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks

The reason the other readers don't remember what happened in France last week is because the children who were shot in the head, while being held by their hair and filmed by the terrorist, were Jewish.

Many of the folks on this site believe the Jews are the root of all evil in the world and that the muslim of arab ancestory who killed the Jewish children in Toulouse last week was justified because of a war happening 2,000 miles away.
17:04 April 3, 2012 by michael4096
@SchwabHallRocks - I've seen no evidence for your assertion - just the opposite, in fact
17:10 April 3, 2012 by Michael R
@SchwabHallRocks, Im afraid you right.The leftists are in love with Islam.

@ Liberal Guy preacher, the lofty world of Liberal Guy floats so high above ours, that he isn't even aware of his condescending attitudes and simplistic drivel dressed up as a supposed intellectual sermon.

@ Boopsie,keep up the brilliant work against these phoney leftists and their lofty ideals which are a reflection of being WELTFREMD.

In closing...the west is the best ,and if we have to check IDs to keep it such ,than so be it.
17:32 April 3, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks
@ Michael4096.


Were you referring to the 1,000,000 Algerians killed in the war with France in the 50s and 60s?

All that is well documented.

The alienation of the non-militant Algerians caused them to side with the militant ones. France employed arbitrary "techniques" on persons based on their demographics which I am using as an analogy for using race / color / religion as a reason for searching persons and alienating such people today.

The USA thus screens everyone for everything. It may be more expensive but it has benefits as well.
18:36 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
Thanks SchwabHallRocks - good point. The jews don't count and anyway they deserve what they get because Israel doesn't let the arabs overrun it. And thanks for the kind words Michael R, I just try to call it as I see it. Nice to know others feel the same way.
18:54 April 3, 2012 by michael4096
@SchwabHallRocks - I was refering to your para immediately above mine beginning "Many of the folks on this site believe..."

I have seen no comments supporting your statements. Additionally, given the comments made by regular posters on this site, I image few if any have the beliefs you attribute to them.
19:26 April 3, 2012 by boopsie
Lets see how many posters now counteract your "assertion" SchwabHallRocks...
21:29 April 3, 2012 by SchwabHallRocks


I would say that there is a variety of opinion on this blog with the extremes on both ends being the most concerning since they seem to be ideologically driven and not spending much time examining the data.

However, I am of the opinion (no data here) that the blindly anti-jewish ones are far more dangerous than the blindly anti-arab/muslim (which is it?) ones.

The reason being that in our western society we seem to be giving the anti-jewish ones a very broad interpretation of freedom of speech whereas the anti-arab/muslim ones are much more prone to censorship. Since it seems to be human nature for the uncritical masses to believe something if it is repeated often enough the uncensored anti-jewish rhetoric wins.

Indeed, read the Local.France. Not a word was written by readers about the terror attacks last week.
23:42 April 3, 2012 by Prufrock2010
Maybe there are fewer crazy American expats in France. The US doesn't maintain any military bases there. Just a thought.
00:12 April 4, 2012 by lexboray
If this continues, then it is a pure racism. This should stop.
03:40 April 4, 2012 by boopsie
>Maybe there are fewer crazy American expats in France<

Or maybe because France has one of the largest muslim populations in europe and the french have become tragically resigned to continuing events like this.
05:06 April 4, 2012 by doc holiday
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
06:14 April 4, 2012 by Turtlez
@ doc

Or we can avoid conflict by realizing racism is stupid and simply not be racist. Simple enough. Just check everyone rather than selected people. It's not impossible. It's not rocket science.
08:09 April 4, 2012 by HariboFTW
@michael4096 - "That the cop cannot be accountable without being racist. "

I see what you mean and so I think the problem is not solved in the best way.

A better alternative, for example, would be eliminate racial bias by artificially forcing police to check an equal amount of different ethnicities. It might be inefficient but it's better than giving police approval (i.e. immunity) to target people specifically because of their colour.
16:23 April 4, 2012 by the.local.reader
In B-W they ask you to report your >>eye color
14:20 April 5, 2012 by LecteurX
@ boopsie #132 - Or maybe you don't have any clue about what you're saying about the French, eh?

@ doc holiday - I'm copy-pasting here your comment #99 so that people can see it a second time.

"Heres an idea if your afrikan live in akrika. If your Chinese live in China. Once we started mixing it all up we have had problems. Ironically we never seem to have these issues with whites going in masses to non white countries."

I'm sure Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Zulus, Indians, North-Africans and people from many other countries on every continent might slightly disagree with you on this, but hey, all those brown people's opinions never mattered anyway, did they?
15:10 April 5, 2012 by provita67
Papiere bitte, lass mich sehen Ihre Papiere!

(Papers please, let me see your Papers!)
18:58 April 5, 2012 by cwross48
Did not Germany try this in 1932 or are they merely following in the footsteps of Florida?
19:20 April 6, 2012 by Harms
People get so worked up about these issues. I see it as totally efficient as opposed to checking everyone. While living in a primarily "coloured" country, I was totally fine by being singled out as a foreigner because I was white. Here, I am totally fine with being extra checked, just because I have an accent.
22:09 April 6, 2012 by The Slog
In the UK, we are not allowed to discriminate in airport anti-terrorist searches on the basis of dress, nationality, religion or skin colour. The result is long queues taking hours to clear...or in short, precisely what the Islamists wanted to create.

Terrorists often have 'fellow-travellers' who are not violent, but support their aims. The quicker we make life tough for those 'sympathisers' the quicker the bombings will stop, and the quicker we will track down terrorist cells.

In Germany, the non-Caucasian skin colour is relatively rare, and thus more likely to belong to an illegal immigrant. So as a police 'cue' it is more relevant. To do such a thing in the UK would be pointless, because our indigenous non-white population is enormous.

A much bigger issue for Germany, I would've thought, is the legislation planned to stop EU job-seekers coming into the country: that is a betrayal of the European ideal.

09:46 April 7, 2012 by Somian

you leave the beer garden by your own choice, but you're not black by your own choice!

The reasoning that a person of color is more likely to be an illegal immigrant makes me sick. It's true, yeah, but that doesn't make the problem any better. Colored germans are being discriminated by having to undergo id-checks far more frequently and thus, in comparison, face productivity loss tat is statistically measurable. You can't measure the loss of self-confidence, though.
23:36 April 7, 2012 by Darko_in_Berlin
I'm against racial profiling, regardless of the reasoning behind it. I hope this court ruling is challenged in a higher court.

During my job at Deutsche Bahn (Bordsteward), I visited a German friend in Cologne while I was on an overnight to NRW. After having a nice time visiting with my German friend, he saw me off at Cologne Central Station. As I was in my DB uniform, I was approached and asked by a traveler for local S-Bahn travel information. However, being that I was based in Berlin and not familiar with the Cologne S-Bahn network, I said I couldn't help him, but maybe my German friend could.

The man who asked me for travel information gave me the strangest look (presumably also because my German friend was from Chad, i.e. really dark skinned) - as I was the traditional European, perhaps a "German-looking" (in the traditional sense) European at that. I felt embarrassed about the situation and it kind of depressed me that people can still be so narrow minded. Of course it's possible that the guy simply assumed that I should know the answer to his inquiry because, after all, I was the one wearing a DB uniform. However, my German friend of African descent and his buddy also had the exact same impression that I had.

If I were non white (regardless of being a German citizen or not) and I was constantly asked to show an ID to the German police (and "European-looking" people were not) - hence if I were being treated differently than white folk, then I am sure that I would feel inferior and downright angry - effectively being pre-judged, or at least highly suspected of being "guilty" of something that I know I did not do.

I wonder if this policy of checking IDs on DB trains is a recent development. During my two-years with DB, I cannot recall one a single occasion where non-white people were required to show ID to the German Federal Police. If they did during 2006-07, then I never saw it.

Although I'm not Jewish, the Nazis would have possibly imprisoned me (or worse) had I lived in Nazi Germany. According to the Nuremberg Laws, I would have been considered a "Mischling". Notwithstanding the calamity against the Jews in Europe in the 20th Century, ethnic profiling is downright wrong, and has no place in a modern society - regardless of the respective country's history. If Germany (and other European countries for that matter) is so concerned about illegal immigration, then maybe the Schengen Agreement should be renegotiated or even dropped - so that Germany and others can re-instate border controls. After all, if the German Federal Police are initiating "spot checks" then it's already too late anyway.

Just my personal opinion.
12:01 April 8, 2012 by michael4096
@Somian - I absolutely agree
20:30 April 9, 2012 by ItsSRK
I am an asian and I dont mind police performing such checks. Afterall its for our own security. and dont forget almost all terrorist does look like asians, middle east, moroccans, etc.... so police doesnt have much choice but to perform such checks on limited section of the society to provide safety, very much for us.....

so keep going cops !!
08:57 April 10, 2012 by Kanadierin
@ whoever made this comment "...we defend the extinction of animals, can we protect a race from extinction?" I can promise you this: the HUMAN RACE, which is the ONLY race that counts in this thread, is NOT in danger of extinction because of immigration.

I find it interesting that you referred to the extinction of animals here, as I do believe that it is quite a propos. Humans have been warring since the dawn of time with each other, but our propensity for violence in general has extended to our planet (and all other species inhabiting it) and THAT is the thing that will render the HUMAN race extinct. And it will probably happen before all of this racial bullshit is dealt with.

If people could think about what they share, rather than how they differ, perhaps they might find a way to cooperate and respect one another. You know how people tend to pull together in a crisis? Well, it looks like the opportunity to do so is well underway. Hold onto your hats!! Here comes the next big flood, earthquake, drought, tsunami, nuclear disaster, whatever... pull together and take care of mother earth because squabbles like these look pretty darned frivolous in comparison!!!
14:40 April 10, 2012 by Louis Prince
Well its impossible to check everybody, so they have to check the most likely suspects and logic appears to favor selecting black people as they are statistically more likely to be trespassers of the law. If they don't like being checked go to a lawless country, but don't moan when the law enforcers can't protect you there. I prefer logic to this humanitarian idiiocracy that doesn't care about protecting people, as long as they feel they are being treated the same. I live in Africa and if the germans are suspisious of me when I go there, It's quite understandable and I would respect it because I am statisticaly a higher threat.
02:52 April 11, 2012 by gorongoza
Comment: After going through all the comments up #147 I got prompted to say this: Its shocking to find how some people take this issue lightly. I am no prophet of doom, neither am I an alarmist. For those who have eyes and ears this issue serves as a warning. This is only the beginning - a pointer to worse things to come. If you are black make sure when the worse comes you do not get overtaken by events........be allways ready to leave the country. The judge has summed it up:if you are black the law in Germany may not protect you from harassment and shame by the law-enforcement agents - the cops. As I see it, the writting is on the wall for everyone black to see. My advice is this: reading people's sentiments is the best indicator of what is to come next. Never listen to those who may want to down play such an issue....... they will not be there when the worse shows up right where you are. I respect the German Laws but I am yet to be convinced they are applied without discrimination to people of black colour. To summarise: the implication of the judgement goes well beyond what most people can see. As I said in one of my earlier comments, this judgement was no mistake,neither is it centered on the issue of illegal immigrants - the under tones says it all. READ BETWEEN THE LINES. Informed is forewarned.
06:09 April 11, 2012 by mbpasadena
I'm sad to see this news item, and consider it a tragic step. Already in the United States, there are laws in the states of Arizona and Alabama that give law enforcement the opportunity to ask a person for proof of their citizenship or immigrant status. Even though the law is couched in a need for the police officer to have another reason in addition to issues of immigration, most folk would agree that the likely candidates will have physical characteristics and accents of people from other parts of the Americas (not Canada). I as an American citizen carry a California Driver's License, which is useless to prove citizenship. But many would say that I'll never be stopped, and if ticketed on some other issue, I'll not be asked about my citizenship/immigrant status.

So seeing this, it touches raw nerves. The creep of power, giving the opportunity for greater 'security', yet greater control of the citizenry, is a real risk in this situation. Be warned--what's happening in the United States is happening elsewhere, let us hope not in the BRD.
17:53 April 11, 2012 by bwjijsdtd
Those who forget the past ... often repeat it ... Germany, 1933 - 1945 ...
14:48 April 12, 2012 by meetjsh

I am Indian and I dont think so there should be any issue if a Polizei comes to us and ask for ID check. But they should also understand that they can check other persons too so other communities do not feel targeted.
04:45 April 30, 2012 by jeff10renatus
Why is it that of all of Local publications for various European countries, the Local for Germany 'removes' the most comments? Does this seem to others to be a continuation of the attitude that allowed the Nazis to come to power and Stasi to be so effective in East Germany?

So, is this dark and threatening propensity to stifle dissent and unpopular or provacative comments, all traits of totalitarianism, alive and well in modern Germany, as evidenced by the unreasonably dictatorial acts of the Local for Germany?

Why does the German Local fear expressions of certain types of opinions?

Do the editors or does the management of the Local for Germany even realize that these censorious actions are the very basis of what allows for the existence of totalitarian regimes?
20:25 May 30, 2012 by Gestapo
I believe that the former Stasi police is still controlling the country with their nazi views, and now they are making their hateric on blacks official through the media and they are not even afraid of the conequences for their actions , i guess the blacks in Germany aren't as tough as the blacks in other racially oppressive Countries like the US.It's a big disrespect to blacks to even anounce it like this let alone do it.

Typical Nazi mentality!
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