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Basketball star's sausage advert is the 'Wurst'

The Local · 16 Jan 2012, 10:56

Published: 16 Jan 2012 10:56 GMT+01:00

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The ad for the ING DiBa bank, which started running on German television earlier this month, shows Nowitzki walking into a folksy German sausage shop to the excitement of the workers there.

One woman hands him a slice of Wurst while asking “What did we always used to say?” Nowitzki responds: “It’ll make you big and strong,” as everyone laughs and he eats the sausage.

But animal rights activists were not amused and began bombarding the bank’s Facebook page with angry comments.

“The Nowitzki advertisement represents violence against animals,” one poster wrote. “Even worse, meat is portrayed as a saviour or something that can make you stronger, where studies say something completely different.”

On January 4 the bank posted a message asking for calm and explaining that the spot “has nothing to do, in any way, with advertising for meat or Wurst.

“The idea behind the spot is to tell small stories that describe life,” the appeal said.

“We’ve been watching this with great interest,” ING DiBa spokesman André Kauselmann told The Local.

Moises Mendoza


Story continues below…


The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

12:21 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Really ?!?! So any representation of someone eating meat is going to be attacked in a similar fashion? Vegetarians are welcome to their views and it is their choice if they choose not to eat meat but this is over the top.

I look forward to their protests outside cinemas, Restaurants, TV studios etc. where we constantly see this barbaric act of tucking into yummy meat. Actually they can only protest on Facebook as they won't have the energy to actually get up and protest for real :-))))
12:22 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Actually, this ad is an ad for vegetarianism, you only have to look at the other people in the scene to see the real results of eating dead, rotting corpses, mixed with a cocktail of chemicals.

This ad was made for the lowest common denominator, they will never change their opinions anyway, so the protest will go on deaf ears, because the type of people who eat meat have no conscience, and thus will not understand the issues of fairness and compassion.
13:04 January 16, 2012 by Paranoid_Android
gimme a break...
13:10 January 16, 2012 by boopsie
@ Raydoggy

Ah hah. And your corpse isn't rotting because you don't eat meat?
13:11 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers

Good to know I have no conscience. Now where's my bacon sandwich....
13:30 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
See what I mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for confirming my thoughts Paranoid, Boopsie and Gaffers. Enjoy eating what was once a being with family members just like you have.

Why am I wasting my time with you guys, it's useless to try and get through to meat eaters.
13:36 January 16, 2012 by derExDeutsche
@ Raydoggy

HAHA. You wish. I live close to a Specialized Heath Resort for the Obese. and I see plenty of FAT vegetarians. Vegetarian's fat also tends to be of a flabbier variety.
13:45 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Not the ones I know. In fact, I don't believe you, I'd say they are meat eaters going for a clean out of all the putrid rotten flesh stuck in their colon.

The real issue here is fairness and compassion.



the state, condition, or quality of being fair, or free from injustice;



a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering

Of course you will find a way to justify your selfishness, because of your addiction to the chemicals in the meat you eat.
13:48 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Raydoggy. You have your beliefs and I have mine. Accept it. I fully accept your right not to eat meat even if I don't agree but I won't stereotype all vegetarians in the way you do meat eaters (mine was a joke earlier about the energy thing just in case you missed that).

You won't convince me not to eat meat because I believe it's ok. I think anyone who believes in God is deluded but I don't come on forums ranting at them.
14:05 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Hit a nerve have I Gaffers.

If they ever find life on another planet and decide that because it's not human we can farm, murder and eat it, you would probably be the first in line at the local butchers for your "choice" cut of alien death.

God believers have a voice, they can speak for themselves, voiceless animals are at the mercy of selfish, greedy, gluttonous people who have no sense of decency, fairness and compassion for anyone but their own. Kind of what I expect caveman to have been like.

Well actually, animals do have a voice, go and hear for yourself their screams of agony at the killing houses and then go and tuck into a nice piece of T-Bone. You deserve it, because you are of a "superior" race, the human race, but not the humane race.
15:00 January 16, 2012 by Paranoid_Android
@Raydoggy, how old are you? You comments are childish to say the least...

If you want to be a vegan tree-hugger then good for you. But stop attacking people who have different views to your own.

but wait, plants have feelings too.......
15:06 January 16, 2012 by LancashireLad

It would appear that the only person here to have had a nerve hit is you.

"dead, rotting corpses" - I have never eaten anything that is rotting.

Your comment is just sensationalism with no hint of basis in fact and no form of rational intelligent argument behind it. If you really wish to convice us carnivores (yes, I can and do eat vegetarian - I just couldn't go veggie) about the merits of vegetarianism, could I suggest a more measured, intelligent and thought-out approach instead of childish, aggressive missives.
15:13 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Raydoggy. Are you Vegan or Vegetarian?
15:27 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
I am vegan.

I was waiting for the "plants have feelings" reply, and te "You are being childish" taunts. Typical!!!!!!!

Id'd rather seem childish than be silent to such gross inhumane torture of defenseless animals, most of which are vegetarians as well, sheep, cows, pigs and chickens.

I look forward to the next volley of "non-childish" replies, you are all so adult.
15:29 January 16, 2012 by Paranoid_Android
You still haven't told us how old you are......
15:33 January 16, 2012 by T.J. Morton
Chickens are NOT vegetarians. They eat insects. Pigs are omnivores too, though their diet consists MAINLY of leaves, grass, roots, fruits, and vegetables.

And, I don't know if you've ever slaughtered a chicken, but they are NOT defenseless! Those nails are sharp! :)
15:45 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Paranoid asks: You still haven't told us how old you are......

and dares to call me childish.

They may have talons, but they are voiceless, except for the creams of agony.

Ho hum, any excuses to not exercise your compassion muscles, as you hoe into another piece of rotting flesh, mixed with addictive chemicals, colorings and hormones. Enjoy ladies, but I wonder what your karma will be, maybe your Karma is already in your conscience. Have a look, or have you hidden your conscience so deep that you don't hear it anymore. Such a wonderful start to the Brave New World. "Hmmmm, nice piece of pig there Fritz", "ya Jim-Bob, is super lecker, now let's go and get pissed out of our brains at the bierhalle, where we can get even more flesh to chew on". Soooo adult.
15:48 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
I am an evolutionalist. The natural world is a harsh place and Humans are no more or no less than animals that have elevated themselves to a position at the top of the food chain. Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years (with or without chemicals). It is part of our genetic make up.

I would agree that if Raydoggy were to actually post something factual and informative rather than just sensationalist he might get taken more seriously as opposed to coming across as a stroppy teenager. "I hate you and you are all horrible !" won't win us over. However the internet will always have its share of posters who just like a good rant.....
15:53 January 16, 2012 by grahame-s
I have never understood why some of the committed vegetarians, non-smokers, none-drinkers etc always seem so "anti" the unconverted - are they really so insecure?

Can't they just be "pro" their beliefs and leave everyone else alone?

Of course, there was one really famous non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who took his "anti everyone else" views to the extreme ..... Austrian, became prominent around 1939 ...

cheers all
15:57 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Comment: Asking your age isn't childish it would help people to maybe understand more of where your point of view is coming from but as has been pointed out your postings are rants and not structured discussions on the merits of vegetarianism over eating meat. You insult us and wonder why we don't listen to your point of view.
15:58 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
So one dimensional Gaffers.

Top of the FOOD chain maybe, but let's now try and elevate ourselves to the more important top of the compassion and fairness chain. That would be a wonderful evolution.

If a more "intelligent" race of beings evolved and said that it's ok to factory farm humans and take their babies away from them, and mince the babies up into nuggets, would you think that was fair and OK, because they are more "intelligent".
16:04 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
I'm going to ignore Raydoggy now. We gave him the chance to post a reasonable argument but clearly he doesn't have one or would have done by now.
16:07 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
I am not arguing form a logical point, because logic can be twisted to fit one's subjective viewpoint, I'm talking about fairness and compassion, two words that no one has used in their replies to me, yet that is always the theme running through my comments, so what does that tell you.
16:11 January 16, 2012 by ukpunk1
13:11 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers


"Good to know I have no conscience. Now where's my bacon sandwich...."

Yes, can't wait til spring/summer to fire up that grill with lots of MEAT on it!
16:15 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Yeah, go and have a big bonza steak mate, go on Gaffers you know you love it, and have a few tinnies while you're there.

To state the obvious:

1- The most important, less suffering. Do it for the animals if nothing else.

2- Easier to feed the starving people of the world.

3- Healthier, if you don't believe me, read The China Study. http://thechinastudy.com/

4- Easier to digest and gain nutrients from a plat based diet, than a meat diet. See: The China Study.

5- The Okinawans are almost vegan and are the longest living nationality.

6- We have a duty as the "superior" species, to protect the more vulnerable, even if they are of another species.
16:20 January 16, 2012 by HansT
So.... Raydoggy says:

"I'd say they are meat eaters going for a clean out of all the putrid rotten flesh stuck in their colon."

Hey, anybody on this site ever heard of "Vegetarian Incense"? A common joke amongst the vegie crowd. It's that excessive gas that comes from decomposing vegetables in the intestines.

Don't shove your vegie religion down every else's throats, Raydoggy... but you can eat all the seeds and nuts you want.
16:27 January 16, 2012 by The-ex-pat
Arguing with a meat Nazi is like trying to convince a Muslim to eat a bacon sandwich. They cannot make an argument without being personal, insulting or extreme in view. It is a waste of time. They are the only ones who are right and the rest of us are murderers. So accept, sit back, enjoy your Schnitzel.
16:30 January 16, 2012 by hanskarl
You aren't arguing from a logical viewpoint is spot on. Neither are you arguing from an objective viewpoint. Clearly, your rants while not necessarily illogical they are clearly subjective. The right balance is the key to any diet. But what is humorous that while defending your choice and demeaning with "argumentum ad misericordium" those you oppose you have taken the "nom de guerre" of "RayDOGGY." Quite comical to say the least. You are twisted. LOL!!
16:32 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Pop down to the pub Hans for a big juicy pig schnitzel and bier, and maybe some mixed animal offal wurst, or some baby male chicken nuggets, because that's all the males are good for, if they can't breed, why have them hanging around to distract the females from laying hormone filled eggs, yum, yum.

I'll have to settle for my colorful, healthy, torture free, steamed gemuse and tofu with shitake mushrooms and soya/sesame sauce dressing. I wonder who will end up the healthiest in their old age. Again, read the China Study, don't take my word for it.
16:44 January 16, 2012 by T.J. Morton
Mmmmm, schnitzel!
16:48 January 16, 2012 by Paranoid_Android
@Raydoggy, you have something against drinking beer as well?!?!
16:59 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Yes, the "meat nazi", that's me, the one who is trying to save the animals from the gas chambers and ovens, that makes sense doesn't it Hanskarl. Thanks for the lesson in logic.

No Paranoid, beer only hurts you, that is your concern, I'm just making a statement about the typical meathead mentality of the booze and the barbie. "Aw mate, look at that big rump steak would ya, can't wait to get my big fat chops around that, actually, talking about chops...".

I still haven't heard anyone address my fairness and compassion issues.
17:07 January 16, 2012 by carlm
Another great example of liberal intolerance from vegans. What a bunch of losers.
17:17 January 16, 2012 by hanskarl
You won't mind if I settle for Schäufele instead now will you. I had Jägerschnitzel recently. Lecker!!
17:20 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
Still no comment on fairness and compassion for animals, isn't that interesting. What does that tell us?

Carim, meat eaters are the losers, again, read The China Study http://thechinastudy.com/
18:03 January 16, 2012 by JAMessersmith
Poor little childlike minds that personify animals.

Most carnivorous animals would eat you, if they only had the chance... and at that, they would feel absolutely no remorse whatsoever.

Much like humans, intelligent animals have a dark side. Animal rights activists are very much confused about this. They'll say humans are evil because we rape and murder (and occasionally give in to our animal instincts), yet animals, who do the same, are somehow "innocent" because of it. If we applied to the same standards to all animals, chimps and dolphins would be in the same sick boat that we are (there are two documentaries about this that are really good, called "The Dark Side of Chimpanzees" and "The Dark Side of Dolphins"). Chimps literally fight wars with rival troops, and male dolphins literally rape female dolphins to death. And that's the least of it. We're not talking about cute cuddly stuffed animals. We're talking about incredibly violent, and brutal, instinctual killers.

And granted, people don't eat chimps or dolphins (as far as I know), but a bull would gore you for sport without thinking twice. A pig would maul you to death and think nothing of it. "Compassion" is the last thing an animal has.

So think twice next time before you start telling me how smart these beasts are. They're animals, and most humans want to apply a double-standard (they resent humans for their animal instincts, and praise animals for theirs).

Realism > Idealism
18:06 January 16, 2012 by nemo999
NO BIER with that Wurst, I am shocked.
18:12 January 16, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Raydoggy, you won't make the other readers take you seriously, let alone win any hearts over to your cause (however understandable it may be), by calling people "losers" or "meatheads" or by preaching in such shrill tones as you generally do.

Even if arguments used in this discussion are rather more subjective and emotional than purely logical, addressing people with respect is a bare minimum. Nobody is interested in discussing "fairness and compassion" with someone that immediately gets on her/his high horse and calls everybody a murderer.

Plus I can tell you, having many farmers or retired farmers in my family, that chickens are not "voiceless except for the creams [sic] of agony", they are lovable birds with a distinct personality (or let's say "character"), curious and quite fast on the ground, and of course, as loud as you can get... At least the happy, freely roaming kind are.
18:12 January 16, 2012 by frankiep
Why is everybody feeding this troll?
18:15 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
For every study that promotes vegetarianism and condemns the eating of meat there will be one that highlights the need for meat in our diet. There are other factors in a persons longevity besides diet (stress, exercise, polution etc.) that affect it.

So everyone that eats meat is also a beer monster or just spends their meal times chomping on huge steaks with the blood still dripping down their chins? No generalisation there at all is there? No stereotyping whatsoever ! Not everything is as extreme as you would like to believe. Beer in moderation is ok, meat in moderation is ok.Many doctors advocate a regular, small consumption of wine to improve health. If I only ate one type of food I would probably die.

In the developed world there has been a shift towards more humane treatment of animals. Not all animals are kept in boxes and slaughtered in a callous way. Of course there are situations where this happens but that does not mean the eating meat is wrong. It has been part of humans diets for thousands of years. Why because our bodies have evolved to require it. You can exercise fairness in the way the animals are farmed and slaughtered but I am not of the view that everyone should be vegetarian to protect animals. I can choose the origin of my food so as to ensure unnecessary suffering is limited.

Easy to feed the starving population? Really? By reducing the food options available? Starvation in the third world is not due to lack of food but due to either corruption in the local governments or inability to distribute the plentiful food to areas where it is needed. Planting crops in a drought area will not fix the problem.

The Okinawans are not Vegan nor are they close. They eat pork, beef, seafood etc. Okinawan sayings include the phrase that Okinawan cuisine "begins with pig and ends with pig" and "every part of a pig can be eaten except its hooves and its oink. Also they have a local beer (Orion) so I am interested to know where you got your facts from? It appears to not be true.

I think the issue people on this forum have is the evangelical way that you are attacking them. You do not try to engage with them but attack them openly and with hostility. You will never get your message across in that manner.
18:15 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
JAM, that is nit my argument, I'm saying the standard of being a superior species should be based on it's ability to have compassion and fairness, because unlike animals, we have a choice, we don't act on instinct alone, we can choose. So what choice did you make JAM, when it came to the decision of fairness and compassion for animals? I bet I know the answer.
18:48 January 16, 2012 by ChrisRea
I must confess that Raydoggy inspired me. My heart is now filled with compassion for the living organisms that do not eat other living organisms. And in the same time the species that eat other species, from this planet or any other, make me very angry. So from now on my revenge will be to make them feel how unfair is what they do. And I think the best way is to eat them while I will protect the species that do not eat other species. I guess that means I will have to eat only animals and to give up plants (except for the carnivore ones, of course). Thank you Raydoggy!
19:25 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
What I'm saying Chris, is that you are not an animal or plant without choice, your gift as a human is that you can make choices, you don't have to live by instinct alone. To me, the highest form of intelligence is compassion, and you can decide to exercise your ability to be compassionate or not, it's up to you, it's your choice. But being compassionate only to your own species is not really living a compassionate life at all. Try to have empathy, understanding, and compassion for all animals, be they human animals or not.
19:37 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
So Raydoggy. Will you respond to any of my points? You made some arguments and I countered. This could be the start of a meaningful discussion if you want one of those?
19:54 January 16, 2012 by ChrisRea
Yes, Raydoggy, I understood your point and I never said I would be compassionate to my own species. I will be compassionate to the plants, the ones that do not eat other living creatures. And I will punish the animals (and the carnivore plants) which, even if they could use sun and water to feed themselves, choose to eat plants and/or animals. So I will spare the innocent plants and eat only creatures that eat other living creatures.
20:14 January 16, 2012 by Raydoggy
How droll Chris.

Missed my point again. Punishing animals that don't have a choice is not showing compassion. Nor is punishing humans who can make choices but still intend to be part of the concentration camps we call "farms". We need to show compassion for them as well, because they are operating way below their potential, probably from ignorance because of their conditioning..

Get back to you later Gaffers.
20:18 January 16, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Gaffers - For Heaven's sake, once in your wicked life, try to show some COMPASSION and FAIRNESS to animals, instead of being such a shameless murdering meathead! It's all in The China Study! Read it all up and you will stop eating raw bunny rabbits and messing up your own karma, and your bowels will feel much better without all that rotting meat inside, and blah blah blah.

@ Raydoggy - I spared you the business of personally attacking Gaffers so that this time you can focus on the sensible part of the discussion. Besides, as you are not allowed to post twice in a row in the same thread, thanks to me you can write straight away.

Now, if you please, we're all ears (well, eyes).
20:28 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Thanks Lecteur. If only someone had put it to me so succinctly I would have changed my evil ways before. I'm already feeling unclogged !

Not sure I'm ok with animals finding their potential. I've seen planet of the apes and it doesn't turn out well for mankind !
21:22 January 16, 2012 by LecteurX
You're welcome Gaffers.

Now, Raydoggy, once you're done with answering Gaffers, maybe you will also be able to explain to us how Inuit people in Northern Canada or Greenland, how Aleut islanders of Alaska, how Nenets of Novaya Zemlya in northern Russia can survive on a strictly vegan diet, by showing so much "compassion" and "fairness" towards seals, fish and reindeer as to never kill them for subsistence or even use their milk for dairy produce. Should they, in order to acquire a "conscience" by your strict standards, give up their cultures and emigrate to warmer places so that they can grow soy and eat tofu instead of messing about in those frigid lands of theirs? Or should they be provided some sort of pills to compensate the loss of proteins and fat? (the latter solution would however make many of them unemployed and would also destroy their societies and cultures).

Same question applies to people living traditional hunging-gathering lifestyles in wherever they do on every continent. Of course we could raze the Amazon rainforest to make way for more soy plantations and shiitake mushrooms so that the people living there stop fishing from the rivers and hunting animals as they have done for the past millennia, but I don't find this either practical or sensible...

My approach to eating more sensibly is to buy organic as often as possible, less meat, trying to stick to seasonal produce and avoiding those items that are flown across half the world to reach the food stalls (and that happens even in my local "Bioladen"). And then, I feel free to enjoy my food - with meat - as a way to enjoy life in general. Life is quite bleak enough without this on top. What you are advocating is nothing less than the end of all the various food traditions from most countries in the world, so that we would all end up eating the same thing in one big happy vegan world... Try to rob the French from their cheese and you'll see what you get...

This does not sound right to me.

You're very welcome to continue in your struggle for a better world, I guess most people here try to improve this world in different ways, some of us are active members of charities (I for one). Animals need to be treated humanely, and consumers need to have a chance to buy better produce at a decent price, but nobody is evil just because they eat meat or dairy products (which are conveniently left out of this debate about "compassion" and "fairness"), or even honey... This is not an argument.
22:02 January 16, 2012 by Gaffers
Lecteur. I would like to take this moment of silence to say I whole heartedly agree with your posting and sentiments. A very good and thoughtful posting.

I find it interesting that given Raydoggy's frequent postings earlier the moment valid arguments are raised in opposition he goes quiet. Ranting is easy, reasonable discussion apparently is less so......
23:07 January 16, 2012 by sonoma88
I might be out of line on this one... but i thing that commercial makes me want to get a beer and bratwurst!

But with truth i think that the commercial is a bit weak and lacks taste and ingenuity. and for the vegitarians to cry wolf is abit over the edge! in germany you see just as many pharmacies as there are butchers and no ones crying about all the pharmacy ads!
09:11 January 17, 2012 by Englishted
Please fill in the missing words :

Storm -- - teacup.
09:47 January 17, 2012 by MaKo
"It'll make you big and strong!" Hmm, ok, when I consider how often I've heard non-native speakers of English here use "strong" as a euphemism for "overweight", this makes sense. Peoples' faith in sausage continually amazes me.
10:03 January 17, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Raydoggy - So... checkmate?

@ Gaffers - Cheers mate!

@ Englishted - I think you're right but I can't help arguing against stupidity when I see it (not that I say that veganism per se is stupid, but this way of shoving it down people's throats definitely is)
11:19 January 17, 2012 by vjtheking
Excerpt from Wikipedia on Veganism: The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada regard a vegetarian diet as appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle, though they caution that poorly planned vegan diets can be deficient in vitamin B12, iron, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, and omega-3 fatty acids.

Guys, get off Raydoggy's case - he's just suffering from Vitamin, Calcium, Iodine & Brain deficiencies!!!
14:54 January 17, 2012 by Raydoggy
Because I can't reply in bold here Lecteur, I have added ========= before my replies. I need to wait for another post before I can reply to Gaffers. Hmm, this is frustrating, I can't add your text, because it goes over the 3000 character or word limit. How to get around this. OK you will need to go back to your post and here I will only add the first few lines or each of your remarks.

maybe you will also be able to explain to us how Inuit people in Northern Canada or Greenland, how Aleut islanders of Alaska, how Nenets of Novaya Zemlya in northern Russia can survive on a strictly vegan diet,

==========They hunt for survival, not just a greedy gluttonous taste sensation. They are living true to survival existence, eating only enough animals to survive, not farming them in cages where they don't even have contact with each other, or taking their babies from them to make nuggets, it's like comparing oranges with apples. Although I do admire your meat mentality cunning in this argument you present to us.

Same question applies to people living traditional hunging-gathering lifestyles in wherever they do on every continent. Of course we could raze the Amazon rainforest to make way for more soy plantations and shiitake mushrooms

==========It sure beats razing the rainforests to grow soya etc to feed cows which need 30 times more grains and soya to produce the same amount of edible nutrients. Plus less screams of agony. Less silencing of the lambs.

My approach to eating more sensibly is to buy organic as often as possible, less meat, trying to stick to seasonal produce and avoiding those items that are flown across half the world to reach the food stalls (and that happens even in my local "Bioladen"). And then, I feel free to enjoy my food - with meat - as a way to enjoy life in general. Life is quite bleak enough without this on top.

==========I haven't eaten an animal for 26 years, and no dairy, or honey etc for 4 years, and I find my food to be very enjoyable and varied, in fact, much more varied than when I was a meat eater, with the monotony of Chjcken, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Chjcken, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Chjcken, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Chjcken, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Chjcken, Beef, Pork, Lamb, ad infinitum. And knowing the misery, torture and agony behind it all. Organic doesn't mean no cruelty. By the way, doctors are always astonished at my good health, and when I tell them I am vegan, they say, "Oh, be careful" like the poor brian-washed souls they are.

You're very welcome to continue in your struggle for a better world, I guess most people here try to improve this world in different ways, some of us are active members of charities (I for one). Animals need to be treated humanely,

===========Vegan would be better than vegetarian, but people usually start veg and then move to vegan. I never used the word evil, that is you putting words in my mouth, instead of a instead of a delicious, fresh, felafel.
15:21 January 17, 2012 by Gaffers
another post......

Do I understand that from the answer above it's ok to eat meat but not if we over farm them (Inuits) ?
15:34 January 17, 2012 by Raydoggy
Sorry Gaffers, again, I have to lose some of your questions, so you will need to go back to your original post to find the full question, otherwise I'm over my limit. My answers start with =====

For every study that promotes vegetarianism and condemns the eating of meat there will be one that highlights the need for meat in our diet.

=====Most meat research is funded by the meat companies which are huge and very, very, wealthy. If you trust them, well, maybe I can sell you shares in the Eiffel Tower.

So everyone that eats meat is also a beer monster

=====I just find that socially, the vegan mentality to be less in need of sedatives to numb the pain of living a life of selfishness, veganism offers a form of peace within, because one feels more connected with life, instead of being part of an industry that destroys life.

In the developed world there has been a shift towards more humane treatment of animals. Not all animals are kept in boxes and slaughtered in a callous way.

====So if aliens came here and they were smarter and stronger and had more sophisticated weapons than we do, and they took your child and said "don't worry, we are going to kill your child in a painless way, she won't even know it's happening, before we skin fry and eat her". Would you say, "oh, jolly good old son, carry on, glad we could be of service, we'll just pop out another one soon enough, and please feel welcome to come back and cook her up as well", if you wouldn't say that, don't you think it a bit hypocritical.

Easy to feed the starving population? Really? By reducing the food options available?

====Either will raising animals in drought areas, what nonsense to say you can raise animals better in drought areas than plants. You're just making stuff up now to try and score points.

The Okinawans are not Vegan nor are they close. They eat pork, beef, seafood etc. Okinawan sayings include the phrase that Okinawan cuisine "begins with pig and ends with pig"

=====Gaffer, you must be thinking of a different Okanawan diet to me and these people. http://okinawadiet.com/okinawa_diet/okinawa_diet_food_pyramid.html They eat meat very sparingly, and not very often. Have a look at the food pyramid, no meat at all on the bottom and no dairy. I don't say they have the best diet, because I think my vegan diet is fine health wise, as I said before, doctors are always shocked at how healthy I am, and when I tell them I'm vegan, they say "oh, be careful", like the good little sheep they are.

I think the issue people on this forum have is the evangelical way that you are attacking them. You do not try to engage with them but attack them openly and with hostility.

=====I have not attacked anyone here, I have only replied in kind. The attacks have been started by the meat eaters. I haven't gone crying to mummy like the meat eaters every time someone denigrates vegans, I just see it as fun, tongue-in-cheek repartee.
15:48 January 17, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Raydoggy - You're being biased and it shows in every sentence you put together. Besides, considering the "rant-quality" of your answers, it's no surprise you struggled to keep it below the 3,000-word limit.

It seems to me you're okay with people living around the Polar Circle eating meat or fish... now that's something. Thanks for showing some flexibility. But they don't only hunt mind you - Sami People of Scandinavia and Nenets and Yakuts of Russia are famous reindeer-herders as well... I wonder where's the "meat mentality cunning" (just one notch short of "evil", wow, thanks for that!) at work here, it's just called being realistic, because we live in a real world. Not everybody lives a comfortable western life in a western city where there are vegan supermarkets at hand or where they can grow a healthy variety of vegan produce. I did not even mention all these pastoral peoples living just about everywhere, from the Maasai lands to the Alps to Mongolia... I don't think they're interested in going vegan and that doesn't make them evil. I say evil because a person is evil when she has "no conscience". And that is an expression YOU employed (see your post #2). Do you deny this as well?

Good for you for quitting with the dairy and honey, I don't think I would enjoy life without it and that does not make me evil. I did not say that food is monotonous without meat, I just said removing all meat and dairy products would mean the end of many specificities of food traditions worldwide - ie not so much difference between French food and Russian food and Japanese food when you make everything vegan. I was looking at the cultural side of it, because many people are deeply attached to their food traditions. I'm sure a vegan diet can be varied, but it would not be specific to your own culture very much.

I like hummus and falafel too, but it does not belong to French or German food traditions. See, actually I'm happy with you doing what you want and being healthy. I'm also healthy and I like to enjoy my lifestyle and my cultural habits.

You're welcome to answer Gaffers on the Okinawans if you please.
16:16 January 17, 2012 by Gaffers
I do not believe meat research is only funded by meat companies. I don't subscribe to this conspiracy theory. It is too easy to dismiss conflicting reports or reports that contradict your beliefs as inaccurate or wrong.

I do not drink beer to numb any pain from my guilt of eating meat or from selfishness. Good that you feel peace from your lifestyle choice but to claim non vegans are in pain due to selfishness is possibly one of the most ridiculous (and judgmental) statements you have made. It is bordering on religious radicalism. That your way is the only way to enlightment. Tell that to the buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc.....

Would I allow aliens to take my children? Of course not. As I said before I would fight and that is the essence of evolution and survival of the fittest. The stronger breeds survive so mankind would fight to ensure their survival. At the moment on Earth Mankind is winning that battle but it wasn't always that and I'm sure in a million years it will be different again. Your comparison to aliens is also ridiculous.

I am not making stuff up nor am I trying to score points. I did not say to raise animals in drought areas but highlighted that meat as an additional source of food would be helpful in fighting starvation.

I believe we are talking about the same race. You refer to a site promoting an element of diet named after the Okinawan people. If you research other sites related to this race you will see greater diversity in the diet than mentioned on your site. The Okinawan diet is not Vegan (I read your website link). it has fish (incl. sushi), pasta (which I believe requires eggs to make ?) & yoghurt.

Mmmm doctors concerned that a vegan diet might be harmful. Are they paid by the meat companies too or is it down to their years of extensive medical training? I know what I believe.

You have used the words meathead, losers, one dimensional, selfish (often) and have grouped all meat eaters (and a large proportion of the planets population as drunken, beer swilling neanderthals who are in denial of the pain they live under. That is attacking.

Finally your posting (the second in the thread) was the first posting attacking others by stating anyone who eats meat has no conscience, cannot understand principles of compassion and fairness and are of the "lowest common denominator"...
16:25 January 17, 2012 by parografik
I am against eating defenseless plants, but I can't bring myself to eat compost.
16:51 January 17, 2012 by Raydoggy
Hey, you guys are so, so funny, I can hardly stop laughing at your hilarious jokes, ha ha ha ha ah ha, Oh, my sides are hurting from laughing so much. See you all down the pub for a big juicy rump cow and a t-bone and some pig and why not a bit of dog, cat and horse while we're at it, "that's three farmyard specials thanks love".
16:52 January 17, 2012 by heyheyhey

I support your view and believe what you believe.

I also know that the individuals with whom you disagree here have no investment in the lives of other beings who have less ability to defend themselves.

Don't waste your time with this group.

it would even sound as though they enjoy the sounds of death?


Your conscience is evolved. they have none. filling their gut is all that matters.

those of us who refrain from killing others and/or eating them understand the issues.
16:56 January 17, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Gaffers - Spot on!

@ Raydoggy - Obviously I saw your latest comment (#59) after posting mine (#58). You say exactly, in your 1st comment in this whole thread "you only have to look at the other people in the scene to see the real results of eatingd dead, rotting corpses, mixed with a chemicals [...] people who eat meat have no conscience, and will not understand the issues of fairness and compassion." Now tell us this is not attacking first...

You cannot go on comparing eating animals to eating human children, that's a ridiculous posture. Do you know about farm life? You don't seem to, otherwise you would not state that chickens are "voiceless but for the creams [sic] of agony" as you wrongfully claimed in your post #17. My parents grew on farms, they know a lot about husbandry. You have to separate the male rabbits from the females, otherwise the males would kill the baby bunnies to make the females available for mating. It's a common feature in the animal kingdom. You have to take precautions with sows that have piglets so that they don't inadvertently lie down on them and smother them to death... the sow has so many piglets, she does not care much about them all... Sure, some animals by instinct take care of their offspring... until the offspring is capable of flying/walking around alone and feed itself. And then, it's ciao, so long and good luck. You have to give up with such stretched comparisons with humans.

In your post #25: "We have a duty as the superior species to protect the more vulnerable [...] of another species." -> Who gave us this "duty"? God? Immanuel Kant? The UN? Again, thanks for not foisting your own lifestyle choices on others.

In your post #58 "what nonsense to say you can raise animals better in drought areas than plants" -> well, have you travelled to these drought areas yourself? Then you would have seen, as I have, how "easy" it is to raise goats in the dry Atlas highlands in North Africa or in the semi-desert regions of the Middle East. It surely is a very welcome source of nutrients (meat and milk) for people living there, and they would be much less healthy without raising the goats... If you say no to this, then you make even less sense than I thought.

"socially, the vegan mentality [is] less in need of sedatives to numb the pain of living a life of selfishness, veganism offers a form of peace within, because one feels more connected with life..." -> you're a religious zealot. This is not a discourse of reason but one of faith. There are plenty of admirable people in this world who achieve great things for others and do that while eating meat or dairy product (or honey...) or wearing leather shoes.

Your comments are too ideological and far too removed from reality. I'm tired of you. After all, if there were a way of having a sensible conversation with religious fanatics, we would probably know this by now.

I'm off to getting on with my life. Good luck with yours and your delusions.
17:13 January 17, 2012 by Gaffers

Sorry but aren't you the same person who said he felt nothing over the slaughter of US soldiers in Germany? How the f*** does that equate with fairness and compassion you complete and utter hypocrite !!!!
17:22 January 17, 2012 by LecteurX
@ heyheyhey & Raydoggy - OK that does it for me. Now I know you're just two religious nutjobs. "Your conscience is evolved. they have none". This pretty much sums up everything from Raydoggy's very 1st post until this conclusion. So, I'm leaving you to enjoy your fundamentalism and will dedicate my time to sensible activities.

@ Gaffers - probably heyheyhey had read on some vegan-jihad forum that the poor US soldiers were not vegan so basically their lives were worthless, you know, like in "lebensunwertes Leben".

I'm off.
19:09 January 17, 2012 by Raydoggy
Yeah right Lecteur and Gaffers, let's save the US (Halliburton mercenary) soldiers. We need a campaign to support them. The more Iraqis they kill, the better the world will be, the more Arabs and Africans and South Americans and Veitnamese and Koreans, hail hail the US soldiers, but the animals can all go a lie in a gully of blood for all we care.

I knew you guys would be the type to defend the US military, I just knew it.
19:31 January 17, 2012 by Gaffers
Actually wrong again. Quite the opposite actually And you completely missed the point. You are so deluded you value animals above people. Both of you talk compassion but are hypocrites when it comes to your own race. I'm done with you cretins....
19:56 January 17, 2012 by Raydoggy
So, tell me why you value killing-soldiers who are doing the dirty work of multinationals over animals. I don't see animals going around with Uzis and AK47s and bazookas killing innocent people for no good reason. It's your priorities that are totally screwed up.

Go and get a job with Halliburton or Monsanto, they pay lots of money for people to do their dirty work, or one of the world's huge slaughterhouses and listen every day to the screams of agony from the tortured animals. I'm sure they will all welcome you with open arms. But for now, go back to your TV, Nascar is starting soon.
11:28 January 18, 2012 by thintow
It makes me sad and sick in the stomach to see/hear about the conditions some animals are in due to mass farming for human consumption.

And yet... I lose sleep over and feel extremely concerned about the fact that there are people like raydoggy and heyheyhey in the world... Their extremism is disturbing.
14:09 January 18, 2012 by Lost in Germany
So Raydoggy... What´s your opinion on bullfights?
16:17 January 18, 2012 by T.J. Morton
I think @Raydoggy is busy honing his straw man skills.
18:04 January 18, 2012 by HelloOutThere
Vegetarianism or even vegans can only exist in a world where people live in abundance - go and tell hungry people in Africa or elswhere not to kill and eat an animal when they have the chance to do it - they need to care for their family. To me human beings and their well-being are much more important than any sort of animal that could ever walk this planet. Every other human-being who values the life of an animal as high or even higher than the life of a human-being is nothing more than a follower of a perverse ideology.
18:40 January 18, 2012 by Scuba Steve
Vegetarian. Old Native American (note the PC? LOL!) word for "Sh*tty Hunter!
23:00 January 18, 2012 by Raydoggy
You guys crack me up with your accidental humour.

I love the way you draw on the most extreme cases of people eating meat, like starving Africans and Eskimos to prove your point, it's hilarious.

Why don't you stick to the point, and talk about the majority of the people in the western world who are eating factory farmed, tortured animals. Do you people have no compassion whatsoever.

It makes me feel sick to the stomach to think that humans can be so uncaring, and need to go to extremes to justify their greed, selfishness and gluttony.
01:57 January 19, 2012 by LecteurX
Well, seeing what a sick mind you have, really I don't care much about you feeling sick to the stomach as well, idiot.

There are 1 billion people starving in this world. One billion. But you dismiss that as "most extreme cases", you idiot. Well, no wonder, I mean, these are just humans with a dark human soul and (mostly) a dark skin, so hey, why would they matter more than rabbits or pigs after all.

Since when has "the point" been "the majority of people in the western world"? It seems to me you change "the point" every time that suits you. I thought the point was, I quote you again: "We have a duty as the superior species to protect the more vulnerable [...] of another species." I asked you who gave us this duty but you failed to answer, yet again. Probably it's your idiot vegan god which gave you this idiot "duty".

Bl**dy idiot worshipping an idiot religion.
05:50 January 20, 2012 by Jeff10

Sorry I don't have time to address your comments; I'm too busy eating my dog meat stew, flown in this morning from China. BTW, do you know that some veggies are grown in soil that's fertilized with a fertilizer that includes animal parts? Anyway, happy trails to you.
19:10 January 20, 2012 by surprisetrustfall

Fairness and compassion towards animals.... hmm.... I understand it....

I'm the president of my local chapter of PETVA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Vegetables Also and while our hearts are aligned, I choose to eat meat because I want to show comapssion to my plant friends. Unlike animals, who give off methane gas (herds of cattle, for example are real polluters!) plants actually convert CO2 into O2 for us. They're life savers! I think I'm doing the world a favor by ridding the world of such animals like cows, chickens, pigs, lamb, deer, kangaroo....

I, as a human with the capacity to think and choose, have made my decision based on reason and compassion. Should I be faulted because of it? And to take matters further, the capacity for empathy for the animal is noble, but for those vegetables and vegetable by-products you consume, there are throngs of human workers that break their backs for hardly any pay to put those greens on your table. What about the compassion for those men, women, and children who literally slave for your lifestyle? The factories that turn your veggies into hamburger patties use a lot of energy and their carbon footprint is not as small as you'd like to think - and the packagaing that goes with all the organic foods use up resources, even of the raw materials are recycled, the energy still comes from some plant that's burning coal. What about compassion for the earth and its future generations?

People, in general, are waseful creatures and it doesn't matter what we do because we drive cars, run heat, use electricity, wear factory-made clothes, pay taxes that support things we're opposed to, act like total pricks to each other, act like even bigger pricks online (you know who you are! XD ) so let's just leave well enough alone. It's not like Dirk was endorsing baby seal clubbing, or panda poaching, or a dietary suppliment made from rhino horns or anything.
11:42 January 21, 2012 by MichaSeifert-Weiss
I skipped quite a few posts:

People are quite simply designed to be omnivorous. Some may decide that meat is not for them, and there are a good number of peoples throughout the world who survive only because they can preserve and rely on meat for much of the year. To claim moral superiority for whatever dietary choices people make is to let emotions carry us away. And I've yet to hear the notion of every other carnivore explained away as improper, although I have met a couple of idiots who tried to keep their cats and dogs as vegans, before the animals ended up falling ill.

I must admit I find the advertisement a little bit cute and nice. Certainly nothing to feel upset about.

Perhaps instead of being so abusively verbose, more angry people claiming a passivist lifestyles (such as veganism and vegetarianism are intended to be) could go about feeding the hungry. Anyway, it's an idea...
10:11 January 23, 2012 by thelamarvelous1
I don't see why everyone is so up in arms on both sides. Dirk is German. Germany has lots of butcher shops. (there isn't even a German verb for butchering is there? No one says "du hast mein Tier gemetzkert.")

So Dirk ---> German---> Germany----> Metzkerei-----> Metzkerei------sells meat.

Finished. You don't know. Maybe he used to visit that butcher shop as a boy.

How can somebody make another person a villain for that?

On the other side of the coin - since we are talking about eating animals here, which is the real issue.

Vegetables are living creatures too. Just because they don't have eyes doesn't mean they are not alive... they reproduce like you and me. They breathe something like you and me. Who knows... maybe they feel? And how much land have we ruined, growing the vegetables, in non-sustainable numbers, that you eat when that land could have been used in a myriad of different beneficial ways to society. Maybe vegetarians are also "bad people."

Or, maybe, just maybe, the truth is that we all have to eat something to stay alive and we all choose what we want to eat and have to live with the consequences one way or the other. It's not a reason to argue or to vilify.

I also have been thinking about dropping meat by the way and plan on becoming a vegetarian (not a vegan, yet...) in the next few years, so its not like I don't know what I am talking about. :P
14:13 January 23, 2012 by LecteurX
@ MichaSeifert-Weiss & surprisetrustfall - many thanks for your very thoughtful comments. Unlike me, you did manage to stay calm - maybe because you didn't have to argue as long with Raydoggy as I did.

To me (and quite a few others will probably agree), the persons really showing "compassion" and "fairness" in this thread are you two, along with a few others sharing your opinion and voicing it with calm and sensible arguments.
23:26 January 24, 2012 by willowsdad
For people who bill themselves as more compassionate, many vegetarians seem pretty enthusiastic about the terrible ends that will supposedly befall carnivores.
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