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Westerwelle praises Danish border re-opening

The Local · 4 Oct 2011, 06:52

Published: 04 Oct 2011 06:52 GMT+02:00

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The measures, which included tougher, permanent customs controls on Denmark’s borders with Germany and Sweden, had been criticized as violating Europe’s Schengen open borders agreement. They were slated to be introduced gradually over the next three years.

“This is a decision for the freedom of the European people,” said Guido Westerwelle, Germany’s foreign minister, shortly after the announcement on Monday.

Denmark’s new left-leaning prime minister, Helle Thorning-Schmidt said on Monday the decision to reintroduce the borders had been a mistake, as she pledged to liberalize Denmark’s policies toward foreigners.

“We want a Denmark that stands as one,” she told reporters at a Monday press conference.

The Schengen Agreement, which covers most of the European Union and several non-EU members, freed travellers from having to stop for passport checks between the participating 25 member countries.

In some cases, countries can reintroduce passport checks, but only temporarily.

Story continues below…

Although Denmark’s previous centre-right government had said the new customs measures did not violate Schengen because official passport controls were not being introduced, the European Union and neighbouring countries argued that they would have violated the spirit of the agreement.

The Local/mdm

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

09:53 October 4, 2011 by Kennneth Ingle
For many, the reintroduction of border controls within Europe , would give us a greater feeling of security.

There can be little doubt, that among the thousands of illegal immigrants, pouring into southern and eastern states of the EU, a large number of potential (if not active), terrorists can be found. Without controls the doors are wide open for international criminality of every kind.

Westerwelle and Co., do not share the same hazards as we do. He and others similar to him, not only shelter behind a wall of bodyguards, but have the whole nation's security looking after them.

Here in Bielefeld, the ordinary citizens are lucky ever to see a policeman on patrol.
13:21 October 4, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ Kennneth Ingle,

What exactly "many" means? More than the many European citizens who are happy that there are no more border controls within Schengen?

Would your "many" feel more secure if controls would be introduced at every street corner?
13:44 October 4, 2011 by hanskarl
Schengen as well intentioned as it may be created a Carte Blanche for cross border crime.
14:11 October 4, 2011 by michael4096
"There can be little doubt, that among the thousands of illegal immigrants, pouring into southern and eastern states of the EU, a large number of potential (if not active), terrorists can be found."

Whoo! Scary!

I think if you actually look at terrorists you will find the home-grown variety and the well financed international variety. I find it difficult to imagine a real terrorist risking a leaky boat crossing on the med.
14:42 October 4, 2011 by LecteurX
@ Kenneth Ingle, a very appropriate quote for you: "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."

I hope it helps you chill out and not wet yourself in fright every time you see a brown face ambling along on the Bielefeld streets.
15:04 October 4, 2011 by LiberalGuy
Wasn't there a bunch of comments on here praising the Danish for taking a tough stand against immigration and all the evils it brings. How they were the only people in Europe who recognized the danger and took action against it. Has that changed? Tell me it isn't so
15:36 October 4, 2011 by Kennneth Ingle
14:42 October 4, 2011 by LecteurX

Thank you LecteurX for the Quote "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." It may just depend upon what you understand as freedom.

Freedom to kill, steal and rape or defraud, or just possibly the freedom to walk the streets, or through a park at night without fear.

As for your racial comment, "I hope it helps you chill out and not wet yourself in fright every time you see a brown face ambling along on the Bielefeld streets," I can assure you the colour of skin does not make a person's character.

True, a person with a brown skin did stab a relative of mine to death in Peckham High street, but that does not mean all Africans are criminals and the violent crimes I have personally experienced in Germany, were all committed by Europeans.

Hanskarl quite rightly wrote: "Schengen as well intentioned as it may be created a Carte Blanche for cross border crime." The best of laws are useless if nobody takes the bother to make sure they are enforced.
17:18 October 4, 2011 by ChrisRea
So, LecteurX, you can see that Kennneth Ingle would be happy to have controls at the street corners and around parks. Hanskarl is joining him, suggesting perhaps that maybe the borders of Lands in Germany should be also guarded (because that would also prevent cross border crime). However, neither of them came up with figures to show that there is a significant threat and that border controls will actually help. Maybe because the facts and figures point to the opposite.
17:56 October 4, 2011 by neunElf
If your borders have no significance, your country has no legitimacy!
18:10 October 4, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ neunElf

Is your statement a result of a long process of thought? If yes, we are probably talking about wasted time.

If I am friend with my neighbour and we respect and help each other, there is no need for fences between our gardens. So we are talking about border control, not borders. Can you grasp the difference?
20:01 October 4, 2011 by Englishted

Are you saying that opening up all borders and having no controls on them would reduce crime?

"Maybe because the facts and figures point to the opposite. "

Then where sir are your facts and figures to prove this mind blowing theory.

And even if you can I still want controls because not everybody have neighbours who won't pinch your tools if you don't lock your shed.
22:31 October 4, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ Englishted

Logic lesson 101: opposite of "there is a significant threat (of cross border crime) and border controls will actually help" is not "without border control crimes will be reduced", but "there is no significant threat of cross border crime and border controls would not be of much help anyway". Do you see now where you did misunderstood my points?

Yes, you are right, some of the neighbours will try stealing your tools. This is why not all countries are in the Schengen area. This is the club where neighbours not only trust each other, but also have a very good co-operation among their police forces.
11:10 October 5, 2011 by LecteurX
@ Kenneth Ingle, okaaay... All that money used in pointless border checks can be put at better use in Schengen oountries. Let's look at the homicide rates of Schengen (S) and non-Schengen countries (***) in # of deaths per 100,000 inhabitants:

Finland (S): 2.50

Ireland (***): 1.35

France (S): 1.31

UK (***): 1,28

Italy (S): 1.10

Denmark (S): 1.01

Spain (S): 0.90

Sweden (S): 0.89

Germany (S): 0.86

Switzerland (S): 0.71

Norway (S): 0.60

Austria(S): 0.48

Here's the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Now here's something else for you: "Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries", The Times, Sep 19, 2005: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece. Last time I checked, oil-rich Scotland, as part of the UK, was not a "Schengen country". How come now? Aren't Edinbra and Glasgae full of foreign armed gangs roaming the streets thanks to Schengen permissiveness?

So, the conclusion of all this is: Sure, dear friend, to explain high crime, just blame that Schengen thing. It works well for clueless people. Actually, among Schengen countries, Denmark fares pretty badly as far as crime go, and indeed worse than its neighbours, Germany and Sweden. Maybe it's the latter two who should have sealed themselves off against those unruly, murderous Danes :-)
14:31 October 5, 2011 by DavidtheNorseman
I would indeed recommend checking out :


It indicates homicide rates by region. South-east Europe is double West and Central Europe, the Mid/Near East is three times West and Central Europe and Eastern Europe is 10 times the rate.

Further if you look here:


you will find under "Crimes recorded by the police", "Violent crimes" that the increase in rape and violent physical assualt has raised markedly in a short time in Nordic countries Denmark, Sweden and Finland - Schengen countries.

At the core the issue (being studiously avoided) is about Values - both the changing values of old Europeans (advocation of abortion, euthanasia, experimentation on babies a la Gordon Brown et al) and the fact that the values of many immigrant groups are already violence-positive. To the gods of Multiculturism (though if we were truly multicultural the jails would be empty, for what are theft, murder and rape but different equally valid values under that scheme) and Humanism we sacrifice the Future......
15:47 October 5, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ DavidtheNorseman

I am not sure what is your point. The statistics you mention show that criminality within Schengen is significantly lower than in non-Schengen states. That means that the risks come from borders with non-Schengen states, not borders between Schengen states. This is why there is a system of passport visa for countries with high criminality risks.

The introduction of border controls in Denmark had nothing to do with fighting crimes, it was a decision with pure political reasons. The Danish People's Party wanted to show their supporters that they are active. A recent annual report of the Danish police says that there is no need for border restrictions. Some excerpts:

¦quot;A return to controlled borders is, according to the National Police¦#39;s judgment, neither a necessary nor a desirable instrument for fighting cross-border crime¦quot;;

¦quot;From a policing perspective, you get more out of employing the significant resources that an effective border control requires to intelligence-based efforts aimed at organised crime.¦quot;.
16:35 October 5, 2011 by LecteurX
Hey, @ DavidtheNorseman, what on earth is all that gobbledygook? Are you for real? How come you conveniently forgot to mention that North America is 1.5 times as violent as "Near and Middle East/South-west Asia" or twice as violent as South Asia according to the same statistics?

I would also like to point out that 23% of the Swiss population is foreign-born, as is 15% of the population of Austria, or indeed 12.5% of the population of Germany and Sweden (on par with the "immigrant nation" par excellence, the USA) and 11% of the people living in Spain... all these European countries rank nevertheless among the safest in the world, and are in no way less safe than Finland, which, according to your theory, should be heaven on earth, what with all those wealthy blonde Northerners with only 3% immigrants living there.

The rest of your post is really too much unrelated and irrelevant supremacist rubbish amalgamated with ill-informed and unsupported deluded views, without a shred of logic in it, so I will ignore it.
14:12 October 6, 2011 by DavidtheNorseman
@ChrisRea - My point with regard to Schengen was that we all know the Danes targets for keeping out weren't Deutsch Hausfraus or Scottish engineers. They were folks from either Eastern Europe or the Middle East who use Schengen freedoms to go to fresh fields for crime.

@LecteurX - friend you are quite nuts. the numbers on the pages I referred to make the Baltic states (which are full of Blonds) more dangerous than the Mid-East. The fact is that as immigration from areas like the Mid-East and Eastern Europe have gone up, everyday violence and crime have increased for the average (not the upper-class, well securitied) European. This is because of the values of the folks from those regions. As well I indicated that with the increasing dismissal of the traditional European values derived from their Chrisitan heritage (when my Norse ancestors were pagans they were as violent as it gets) the violence level in Europe will rise naturally. North Americans have their own problems related to similar issues but we are discussing why a small European country would choose to try and reduce an influx of crime and why this ISN'T related to race but values (and why Multiculturalism is a proven fail because it claims that all value-systems are equally valid). As for Finland, : http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2006/08/study_tracks_rise_in_immigrant_crime_210148.html immigrant crime rates are still twice the local. That IS significant - especially if you are the victims.
15:45 October 6, 2011 by LecteurX
@ DavidtheNorseman, well, nuts indeed, yeah. But at least informed, and not seeing "causes" or "consequences" where there aren't any.

You want to see a place where people are devout Catholics, going to church and stick to "tradtitional values derived from their Christian heritage"? Places where divorce became legal in the 1980s? Where abortion, euthanasia, etc., is banned? Where the bishops routinely interfere with legislative debates and excommunicate the deputies who disobey them? Then pick Latin American countries. ANY of them, except Cuba and some Mexican states (where abortion is partly legal). They're also super violent places, most of these countries. So now please explain this. Too many Romanian gypsies in the Brazilian favelas? Too many Turkish and Middle-Eastern layabouts in the streets of Lima? Too many Russian gangsters in Mexico? Too many same-sex unions celebrated in Argentina since they became legal 1 year ago?

I still don't get it why you insist "multiculturalism" has anything to do here; Muslim countries never legalised murder or theft or rape man. Just because Bin Laden was a Muslim (sort of) doesn't make him a representative of the religion shared by more than 1 billion people and a few dozen nations.

By the way, in the late 18th century, they were still burning witches in Switzerland. Is that also a loss of "traditional European values" you feel sorry about?
18:37 October 6, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ DavidtheNorseman #19

"we are discussing why a small European country would choose to try and reduce an influx of crime" - incorrect, the article and the discussion that followed is about whether introducing border controls between Schengen countries was a mistake or not. As the Danish police says, border controls do not really help fighting crime, but waste police resources.

"Multiculturalism is a proven fail because it claims that all value-systems are equally valid" - "valid" has no comparison term (i.e it is incorrect to say "more valid" or "equally valid"). So if we refer to the validity of different cultural systems, it is obvious that it is more than one culture that is valid (after all, people lived for millennia in more than one culture). Multiculturalism actually says that people of different cultures can live together. Which, in case you didn't notice globalisation, it is already happening. It definitely requires a lot of effort both on individual and institutional level, but the results are worth it (otherwise it would not have become the trend). Just ask the people on this forum who married somebody from a different culture.
19:48 October 6, 2011 by DavidtheNorseman
@ LecteurX - I don't see a migration to Islamic countries LOL . They allow and promote all the things you mentioned as long as the recipients of the violence are non-muslims. As for the Americas I'm sure the Danes would have border restrictions against Shining Path, too, but the ocean is still a rather big moat.

@Chris - It is quite acceptable to use "more valid" or other qualifiers. General Relativity is a more valid theory of gravity than Newtonian. Your postiion that cultures are equally valid is in error. We rejected the Nazi culture as unacceptable 70 years ago. Right now the American hegemony is keeping the world from war, but when it fails the unrestrained hatreds and violences will erupt. The Americans have been running with a basically tolerant Presbyterian political model for 200 years and kept the world (outside of the tyrannic Communist bloc which the communists had to build walls to keep people in) in a tolerant peace through the threat of their power for the last 70. That period is coming to an end. Globalization is the attempt by corporations to create an artificial world society...it is already collapsing and even if the fabled one world government arose it would last a very short time, as Hitler's did....the ultimate problem is the ubiquitous one of Sin and the solution is still Jesus Christ as Lord and God - a solution currently as unacceptable to Rome as to the Atheist West as to Islam.

The solution to the Immigration issue is simply to execute those who commit violent crimes and deport immediately to the country of original origin those who commit lesser crimes (not traffic or bylaw violations).
02:01 October 7, 2011 by LecteurX
@ DavidtheNorseman, if you're saying that muslim countries "allow and promote" murder, rape and theft of "non-Muslims" without a shred of evidence of this statement, I'm not at all going to take you seriously anymore. How nice it is to conjure arguments and lies out of thin air and use them to "prove" a point. Second, you've not answered to me why Latin-American countries which have not renounced their "traditional Christian values", but really not at all, and definitely take very much Jesus Christ as Lord and God, are such violent places. You can joke as you like about the Shining Path, it's not an answer to a very clear question.

"The American Hegemony is keeping the world from war" now? Wow that's priceless. Last time I checked, Iraq was part of this planet and indeed invaded by America only 8 years ago with not a single valid reason. Just as your rants are devoid of any logic. Ask Iraqis about the brilliant "tolerant peace" they're enjoying, or Chileans about September 11, 1973.

Keep dodging facts man, yeah they tend to be inconvenient. I've wasted enough time on this pointless discussion now. Ciao
08:20 October 7, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ LecteurX

It took a bit longer, but eventually I got it. In a rather technical discussion (whether Danish control at German border is useful in fighting cross-border crimes), DavidtheNorseman brings in first immigration, then multiculturalism, religion, Nazis (claiming that they were a culture :) ), corporations, the alleged American hegemony. All are issues that used to make lengthy discussions on The Local. And he takes an extreme stance with laughable statements ("the ultimate problem is the ubiquitous one of Sin"). My guess is that DavidtheNorseman is fictional, probably a creation of The Local in order to stimulate discussions and get more hits on the webpage.
10:50 October 7, 2011 by LiberalGuy
@ Davidthenorseman

On a previous story about the NDP on the Local (sorry but I can't recall which exact story), you said you were a skin head but that you hated the NDP and Neo nazi's beacasue those thugs and their idelogy gave you and other skin heads a bad name. But yet here you are sharing and forwarding their same anti immigration agenda. You can't have you cake and eat it too.
11:15 October 7, 2011 by LecteurX
@ DavidtheNorseman

One last thing I forgot last night at 2am... You say the following: "I don't see a migration to Islamic countries LOL". Yeah, LOL indeed. Let's consider the immigrant share of the population of the following countries:

Qatar: 75%

United Arab Emirates: 71%

Kuwait: 62%

Bahrain: 41%

Brunei: 33%

Saudi Arabia: 25%

Oman: 24%

Well, this migration to wealthy muslim countries is very much there for you to see. Unless of course by some personal warped criterion of yours these do not qualify as muslim countries, this is enough to show that that statement of yours was yet more unsubstantiated rubbish. You spread enough lies in each comment to make the Pravda look good. Don't need to say more. A good day to you.

@ ChrisRea

Point taken: thanks for your support. Yeah this guy must be a fake, only that can explain the staggering idiocy of his comments.

@ LiberalGuy

Contradicting himself seems to be the least of DavidtheNorseman's worries. But thanks for bringing that up. I mean, you need a high tolerance for lack of logic in order to be a "non-nazi", fundamentalistic Christian skin-head...
15:28 October 7, 2011 by DavidtheNorseman
@LiberalGuy - sorry lad, never been one and never claimed it. I'm an old fashioned Democrat and always have been. My kind finished of that lot and still keep them down where ever they pop their ugly heads up. I have no problem with immigration that fits the needs of an area. Immigration that simply imports crime, violence and invalid ideologies - that I do have a problem with.

@ChrisRea - Danish border controls at German borders were always about immigration issues (and not about holidayers from Wales, either).

@LecteurX - those aren't immigration numbers of non-Islamic Westerners of Western descent going to those places, nice try LOL. Egyptians and Pakistani citizens moving as "guest" labourers to Saudi don't count for this discussion. :-)
16:00 October 7, 2011 by LiberalGuy

If it wasn't you then my appologies. I do remember someone with a viking sounding name saying it (I found it inetersting at the time) but if it wasn't you then it wasn't you.

Anyway before you get on the anti islamic band wagon just remember that most of the worlds muslims don't live in the middle east, rather south east asia. And I can tell you that I've drunk lots of Bintang beer in indonesia and didn't get stoned, or jailed, or had my hands chopped off. Don't paint them all with the same brush. Sure Iran and Saudi Arabia are pretty extreme, but go to Dubai or Bahrain, or UAE and see the difference. I mean how many Germans or English go to Egypt and Tunisia for holidays and come back wanting more
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