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Germany’s humble strength

The Local · 5 Jul 2011, 11:05

Published: 05 Jul 2011 11:05 GMT+02:00

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Compared to the United States – a strong but often unscrupulous country – Germany in the past was long seen as weak but overly moralistic. America waged war around the world, toppled dictators, made billions of dollars worth of tax cuts, while Germany appealed to the world’s only superpower to protect the climate and give terrorists a fair trial.

But now that relationship has changed. The United States has become weaker, but is still fairly ruthless. Germany is stronger, but still extremely prone to high-minded moralizing – even while considering the sale of hundreds of tanks to Saudi Arabia. Can this new balance hold?

Germany's position has also shifted within Europe. There's an unspoken but clearly discernible belief in Germany politics now: "We're a major player, and we're good!"

To name one example, hardly any other country has dealt with the recent financial and economic crisis as well as Germany. The economy is booming, unemployment is sinking, and tax revenue is filling government coffers. Germany was proved right not to bow to American pressure for more stimulus packages, and the governments in Washington, London, Paris and Madrid now look to Berlin with a mixture of envy and admiration.

Or take the example of Iraq: even US neo-conservative hardliners, along with their European allies in Britain and Poland, now consider the invasion a mistake. The mood is also tipping against the NATO-led operation in Libya, and everyone wants out of Afghanistan too.

As a result, many Germans see their concerns about those military missions confirmed. War has been proven to be neither a successful way of curbing terrorism, nor has it accelerated the development of democracy.

And what about nuclear power? While other countries carry on pumping billions into this hazardous form of energy production, we are shutting down reactors and investing in green technologies.

The cost will be worth it – the leading industry transformation of the 21st century promises massive profits through energy efficiency. Germany is already the market leader in a number of green sectors, with a share of the global market totalling between 15 and 20 percent.

Strong and evil – that was Germany's image in its dark past. Weak and good – that is the Germany the world has known for the past 40 years. But strong and good – that is the new Germany that many neighbours and allies still have to get used to. Power and moral superiority – that can be an extremely annoying combination.

Story continues below…

That's why it might not be a bad twist of fate that the country is currently being led by unpretentious, almost completely anaemic politicians. President Christian Wulff, Bundestag speaker Norbert Lammert and Chancellor Angela Merkel: no-one could seriously accuse any of these people of arrogance and finger-wagging.

What could be seen as a flaw – weak leadership – has become, from a global perspective, an advantage. Because one thing we know: the teacher’s pet may be forgiven many things – except being a braggart. The stronger and more moralistic Germans feel, the more humble they should present themselves on the international stage.

This commentary was published with the kind permission of Berlin newspaper Der Tagesspiegel, where it originally appeared in German. Translation by The Local.

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

18:37 July 5, 2011 by MJMH
Jörg-Uwe Hahn comments about Denmark reintroducing border controls are a good example of how strong and good Germany has become. Sorry, that was a cheap blow I know.

The point really is Germany has gone past its history and should be listened to and treated like any other country.

Its also time Germany gets a little bit of nationalism and catches up with its European neighbors or else strong and good will easily get taken advantage of thanks to political correctness.
19:07 July 5, 2011 by whpmgr
this article is devisive and shows us all what the author's intent is: Bash and try to create distance between two friends.

no other country in teh world has done for people around teh world what the US has. How many countires have felt the compassion of the american people when a flood, or other disaster has happened? What other country in the world give money so freely than the US? the red cross? American adn going broke for being so worldly and kind. With the last few disasters in teh US, how many countries ahve offered help or money to us? The floods, and hurricanes, the tornados? The awesome destruction we have experienced here and not one country offering assistance like we do.

The author calls the US Unscrupulous. At times we have been. But teh peace corps have done a great deal aroudn teh globe. The US Dollar helped to feed adn cure sick everywhere at levels no other ocuntry has. Even teh French have doctor's without borders, but what does Germany offer?

Bash teh Americans, but if we step back from teh edge, we give nothing more, if we stop offering support to even Germany, where would the world be? I think we should. We should take teh huge amounts of economic aid we give out and give it to our people who are in need. Stop providing medicine, food, shelter, assistance to the countries that despise us.

Not one country, germany, UK, Canada, Spain, france, China, Russia, turkey, not one has given the amount of funds we have. Not one has loaned the billions to its enemies and friends alike (the Marshall Plan) and forgiven the debt adn then allowed teh debtors to not even make payments on moneies still owed. Fools, idiots. Why does anyone want to drive a wedge between Germany adn the US? It is imperative we stay close, we work out our differences. If we do nto hang together, we shall surely hang separately thomas Paine
19:46 July 5, 2011 by DOZ
Strong and good now? But for how long? Never met a German I trusted.
19:51 July 5, 2011 by farmon

That was about a racist comment. Don't forget that the US is made up of about 50 million ethnic GERMANS.
20:13 July 5, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
MJMH - Germany should not get a little nationalism now or ever. For reasons that are so obvious as to defy explanation.

WHPMGR - It's the. The. I stopped reading the second time you got all cute and internetty and misspelled it on purpose.

DOZ - Meh.

Farmon - They aren't Germans anymore. And Amish people do not count.
01:59 July 6, 2011 by MJMH
Dear ryhntyntyn

What makes you an expert on Germans in the present and the future. You can't blame a child of grandchild for a parent or grandparents action.

Nationalism is growing in Europe.

And yes scratch the surface and German-Americans are German. If yo don't think so visit the Mid-West or Texas or The Pacific Northwest sometime. Many Americans still feel German and say so every ten years when the American census is taken.

And I can see that your argument makes a lot of sense when you try to prove your point by excluding an entire group.
07:45 July 6, 2011 by harcourt
DOZ: #3

Have you ever noticed, they don't even trust each other!
11:10 July 6, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
MJMH - When having a discussion, so long as the arguments are backed up with facts, I find the qualifications are a non event, because who you are, or what you do, doesn't make an argument any more sound. A highly qualified person's argument can be just as wrong or right as a someone's who has no formal qualifications.

However, I read Cultural History & Politics at University, I trained at a KZ memorial, I actively lecture on German History and I have studied the Germans and their culture for years. None of this has any effect on my argument pro or con, as what am I arguing is rock solid on it's own merits.

Nationalism is not patriotism. Nationalism is an abberation. It is less the love of one's nation and more the disdain or contempt for all others. The Germans have tried that, and it didn't work. It was in fact a disaster for them and for the neighbors.

I do not think that they need some form of pride or nationalism to be successful in EU or Internationl politics. They have a pragmatic method developed sans nationalism since the Second World War that has worked very well for them so far. Why should they regress, even if other countries are becoming more electorally reactionary?

Nationalism exists in Europe? Really? Do tell. Did someone just invent it? Of course it does. So what? Whether it is growing or just coming out of the woodwork or not doing either remains to be seen. And just because it might be growing in Europe, does not mean that it should, or that the Germans should jump on that particular bandwagon.

I know Texas intimately. It's a great place to be from. I know the Texas Germans. I know the midwestern Germans. They are German Americans. Not Germans. I would and could and do make the distinction. And there is an article just a few days prior to this editorial that talks about them dying out. Have you read it?

And I leave the Amish out because they abjure nationalist identiy completely in favor of their congregational identity. They would not tell you they are German. They are not part of the discussion.

DOZ - they learn early from queuing.
17:26 July 6, 2011 by Larry Sharpe
I am from America (St Louis). We have a strong German presence in this area. That is a GOOD thing. My ancestors are German. I am very proud of the German people. They are a strong and vibrant people with a very proud history and tradion. Long live Germany.
18:03 July 6, 2011 by MJMH
Dear ryhntyntyn,

Yes do please back up your opinion with facts. Just read what was written after your last response. The author (Larry Sharpe) said German not German-American. Germans in America including the Amish feel German.

And just pick up any newspaper. Perhaps the German Danish or even Dutch. Nationalism is growing and will continue to do so. i'll leave the definition of Nationalism up to you.

The reason is many people don't want their country to be successful in the EU and feel that at present because of all the problems in Europe International politics should take a back seat.

And yes time to see the way Europe really is not the way or on the path you wish because nothing stays the same. The point being The EU once the dream of the elite has become a nightmare.
18:17 July 6, 2011 by Jack Kerouac
Germany and Germans will never live down the second World War. Everbody always brings it up in any discussion, as if it were still relevent. It was a long time ago, and Germany learnt from its mistakes. Look at the country now - is ANYTHING similar to the way it was during the National Socialists? No. Nor will it ever be. People who want to bash Germany and/or German people often revert to the war topic when they have nothing else to say, and no facts to back up an opinion. Get a clue - it's over. Move forward.
19:00 July 6, 2011 by MJMH
Dear Jack Kerouac,

Well said.
23:02 July 6, 2011 by Vermaldeehide
Useless article.

08:41 July 7, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
MJMH - So, based on a posting on the internet, from one dude, who is "proud" of the Germans, from St. Louis (and not Curryville, Missouri or Arthur, Illinois) you have ascertained that the Amish people of America, as well as the other 49 million or so people of German descent feel German.

Good for you. And good luck with that.

America is a mixed nation of mixed people. They pick and choose depending

on the day and the reason. On St. Patrick's day you'll meet an Irishman named Schulz, and at Oktoberfest in St. Louis, you'll meet a German named Sharpe or Lopez. Whatever.

Eisenhower was a German American. Read his biographies. I don't think he felt German. The list goes on. I would use a better statistical sample than one guy on the internet, but it takes all kinds.

The Germans in the US have been thoroughly assimilated.
09:21 July 7, 2011 by harcourt
Jack Kerouac: #11

I wish fervently that your sentiments were true. However may I draw your attention to comment #16 after the article " Bundeswehr begins new era as conscription ends" here on The Local website. The writer talks about peace, love and forgetting the past but I trust you will agree that the underlying tenor of his comment is straight from 70 yrs ago. With the rise and rise of Neo-Nazi groups and parties I think one ought to be VERY careful before implying things have changed so very much. - Regards
10:29 July 7, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Harcourt - I cautiously think you are veering to a good point. I think the Germans should watch themselves. But not because they are particularly suceptible to such facist/nationalist nonsense. I don't think that. I think that everyone should watch themselves in that respect, because that sort of villany is the kind that sneaks up on a body politc.

The reasons for my caution are that I think the Germans have built a decent country, things have changed here and I think part of the reason for that is the not so decent country that they decided to be in 1933.

Having seen and been the worst they could be, they now know 1st hand what not to do, and that encourages the good, even when it is not convenient. The pressure of the responsibility of being German, adopted by a guilty populace in 1945, has helped to push the regime to make certain decision over the years that were arguably "good" but not convenient.

But people are people. They forget, they move on. The 1st hand witnesses to the mistakes of the past, like the past, inevitably die. So I would say things have changed. We do not live in Nazi Germany. Not at all. We (at least I) live in a very decent modern Germany. But will it always stay that way?
12:14 July 7, 2011 by Kennneth Ingle
What a load of rubbish! Most Germans were never bad, anymore than we are. They do however have a great deal of bad luck with their governments. whether kings, nationalists, communists or so-called democrats. Time and time again their leaders prove to be useless. Many of ours are too, but then the people at least take to the streets to protest, the Germans seldom do.

Hitler once described these people as a "load of sheep" and this same description was used by the personnel manager of the NAAFI in 1960.

They let themselves be led into trouble and ruin without waking up. Nearly everything that comes from the top is accepted. Of course they moan about such injustices, but few would take to the streets, or even write to their local MP. No, they are not bad people, but as far as politics are concerned, are sleepy and lazy.
14:50 July 7, 2011 by harcourt
rhyntyntyn: #16

Very good and well argued comment, I totally agree. Your final paragraph is my worry too. I also live in Germany (for the last 20yrs) and see disturbing attitudes towards foreigners which education in the last 30 yrs hasn't seemed to ameliorate.
15:58 July 7, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Kennneth Ingle - The govt. of Germany in its biggest disaster was not simply bad luck. In 1934, they chose it, by more than a 90% margin.
17:33 July 7, 2011 by IYWMTS
The question is not only whether this could happen again in Germnany or not, the question is also whether this could happen in other countries - or to be more precise is happining in other countries at the moment in some way.
17:58 July 7, 2011 by farmon
There have been a lot of good comments here. If not for the treaty of Versailles pushing the most industrious people on earth into poverty and misery, Hitler would never have rose. That is the more important lesson.
18:29 July 7, 2011 by IYWMTS
@ farmon:

A very good point, in deed. That is something many people don't seem to keep in mind when discussing reasons why the Nationalsocialists came to power in Germany.

As far as I know J.M. Keyens - the famous British economist - stated that the Treaty of Versailles would/could have very negative consequences...
18:38 July 7, 2011 by MJMH
All you folks just remember when pointing fingers at the Germans that the French turned in the Jews by the truckload, the Poles were happy to get rid of the Jews and the Russians, Anne Frank was turned in by a Dutch woman, America and England refused to open their borders to refugees, and Sweden not only kept the Nazis in war goods but performed their own mini-extermination on members of society deemed less than perfect.

Yet the Germans admitted what they did and yet the other nations have yet to barely acknowledge what was done.

The only nation that saved the Jews and can hold their heads high for helping feed an occupied Europe during WW2 was Denmark.
18:51 July 7, 2011 by IYWMTS
A little correction by myself: The name of this great man is written Keynes.

Totally agree with you MJMH - but I think that some people will never see or when they see, accept that truth is very complex.

Best regards
19:46 July 7, 2011 by farmon
Good comments, MJMH

Did not Hitler offer the Jews to the world before the final solution? Obviously, there were no takers. The rest of the world should be sharing this guilt.
04:38 July 8, 2011 by DOZ

When I think of a phrase that best describes my German Mother and her German Community, I think Bill Cosby, a great American said it best. "How long can you tread water?". And I guess it was also that .223 that whizzed by my head while my back was turned, that finally made me realize to keep my youngest son as far away from the German Community (and their friends).
09:36 July 8, 2011 by Kennneth Ingle
To the remark: 15:58 July 7, 2011 by ryhntyntyn, of course yo are right! Destroy or lame the opposition and you will almost certainly get 90% of the vote. Look at White Russia now, or the former GDR. The very same people you claim voted for Hitler are later said to have voted 90% for the communists.

The truth is, before Hitler siezed power, the last free elections show that two thirds of the electorate vote against him. Of those who voted for him, many believed his promises to bring peace and justice to Europe.

These days we all know what political promises are worth, but in those days democracy was fairly new in this country. After the SPD had sent troops out on the streets to shoot at demonstrators, few were ready to trust the left.
10:23 July 8, 2011 by IYWMTS
I have been watching comments on the local and on toytown Germany for a quite a long time now and the last comment by DOZ perfectly shows that on both platforms there are some people who try to take every single opportunity on bashing Germans.

But on the other hand I luckily know many great people from abroad who are completely different than that, who are not biased at all and with whom you can become great friends.
10:48 July 8, 2011 by michael4096
Actually, I was thinking that this thread presents a refreshing change from the usual good & evil disney-esch seen here.

I disagree with much of the article but do agree with the last bit - the country has benefited from a lack of strong leadership. I've often felt that people's natural desire for a strong leader was counter-productive in times of non-emergency. Strong leaders find it very difficult to do nothing but that is, all to often, the correct strategy.
11:02 July 8, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
I think DOZ is just trolling. Take it seriously if you want though. Germans in the US overwhelmingly prefer .306.

-Michael4096. Yes. I believe you are right. Strange and counterintuitive though that might be. Sometimes, nothing is the best something one can pick.

-IYWMTS I don't think that the right wing parties in Europe right now, whether LePen in France, Allesandra Mussolini's style of ice cream or gelato facism in italy, pick a raving Dutchman, or whatever the hell the Finns are doing, constitutes anything even vaguely resembling the Nazis except at the most superficial level. Such comparisons are ideological traps, inhibit actually seeing the real problem and then formulating a solution.
11:27 July 8, 2011 by IYWMTS
@ ryhntyntyn:

That has to be a misunderstanding. It was not my concern at all to compare political events in other European countries to what happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945, because - as you said - it cannot be compared to each other.

I thought my concern was quite clear - by the way not only bashing all Germans is wrong - bashing all people from every other nation is wrong, too. Because we are all individuals with different opinions - im my opinion there is no way of saying a nation is like this or that.

Therefore you are right - we have to overcome ourselves to find a solution to the problems which the world suffers from.
16:24 July 8, 2011 by lunchbreak
The germans can be humble when it suits them.

They can also be completely ruthless as evidenced by their behavior during WWII and indeed the way they drive their cars. If they deem themselves in the right and you happen to be in the way they'll run you over without thinking twice. Winston Churchhill put it in a nutshell - "the germans are either at your feet or they're at your throat".
16:35 July 8, 2011 by michael4096
@lunchbreak - that low rumbling sound you just heard was not another rendition-plane but a communal yawn from Local/TT readers
16:42 July 8, 2011 by harcourt
lunchbreak :

What you say is SO true. After living in Germany for 20 yrs I've found that Germans are very self-righteous, however if you stand up to them they back down immediately. Its quite amazing and a bit creepy
17:50 July 8, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
@Lunchbreak - Wow. You brought up the war! How original. I don't think any of those words mean what you think they mean. The article and thread are about German policy. Not about the war.

@Harcourt - I like the Germans. I would see no reason to live in their country if I didn't like them. It's nice but not so nice that I would stay for the architecture or Landscape and hate the people. I have found that most people from most countries will back down if you A. Are right. And B. Stand up for yourself. If you don't meet condition A, then you have no place speaking up in the first place, and if you do meet condition A, then B is assuredly the right thing to do.

I do not see the Germans as any more or less self righteous than let's say a large gaggle of older middle class Englishmen or God forbid, the women, reading the either Guardian or the Torygraph. Not much difference at all I am afraid.
18:13 July 8, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

I'd don't value truth any less than originality. Was it Metternich that said that war is policy by other means?

@ Harcourt

In a way its a matter of who can shout the loudest. lol
20:19 July 8, 2011 by Richard Schmoyer
Doz: I am an eleventh generation German American. first settlers arrived form the Rhineland in 1732. We all still view selves as German Americans.

Sixty six years ago, my PA German father fought in World War Two. Fought in the Hurtgen Forest. Crossed the Bridge at Remagen and was holed up in the Ruhr Pocket as his divison made their way to Berlin -arrived about ten days after the end of the war. I personally spent three years in the former West Germany during the Cold War. Proud USAF vet. We, in my family have not forgotten our American heritage or the damage the National socialists did to the world sixty five - seventy five years ago. We also are aware of the damage doen

ne to East German society by the STASI. That said, we are proud of the way Germany has genenerally handled itself since the WAR, and admire the country for its unique cultures, beautiful landscapes, efficient resource utilization and growing economy. While certainly not perfect, The USA should look to Germany as a model for 21st centry citizenship and economic discourse. Cut your racism and Anti German and Anti German-American ethnocentrism
20:28 July 8, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak -

Metternich is mouldering in the Grave. I don't see modern German politics as pursuing his legacy. The EU is an answer to the concert of Europe, not an heir.

If you value truth then you can value the axiom that we are not what our ancestors were, and we do not have to become them. Otherwise Americans, Australians and Brits and even Canadians, especially the Freedom loving western types, are also in a lot of trouble.

The Germans of today are not the Germans of 1933. I believe as a matter of fact that they have made changes both culturally and in terms of hard policy that are easy to see, that show how they changed, and why they are different. This was the point of the article. Not some rehashed ad nauseum reference about, OMG they were ruthless in the war. They are all bad. The only good one is a dead one, Frankie say, hide yourself!

That's frankly nonsense, that runs contrary to the facts, and it is worth nothing in terms of analyzing Modern German politics.

And if you know modern German culture than you know that whoever shouts first loses.
00:54 July 9, 2011 by Evets23
(I'll be getting way off-topic here with thoughts that I've had for a while, but bear with me. :) )

I agree with the comment that the author overlooked all the aid the the US has provided other countries in time of disaster and also the efforts of the peace corps. (Has any other country done such a thing? Maybe so. Just wondering.)

But I also agree that we need to disassociate Germany from WWII. Germans have lived long enough with guilt from that era and it needs to be put in the past. Yes, all those GIs that died during the war should be remembered and honored, but I think still we Americans associate good with us and bad with Germany.

I look at some of the weird tea baggers here in the US and wonder if some day they might turn the US into a state like Hitler's Germany. Yes, some of those people are extremely disturbing. (I'll tell you some day about the teabagger that runs the local post office here.) Germany would be glad to pass the title of evil to another country.

To Americans who get down on Germans: Germany is different than the US. It is a different culture with a different history. Get over it. I lived in Germany for 4 years when I was kid and it was a life experience -- I learned to be open-minded and to see that a culture that is different than ours is not bad -- it is simply different. Too often Americans are taught that we are the best. This makes us unaware of our blind spots and areas where we need to change.

To Germans who get down on Americans: lighten up. Come visit the US. We aren't as bad as all those negative headlines and news stories you see.

05:41 July 9, 2011 by Eric Best
Germany, in one form or other, has been here since the time of Charlemagne, existing in all the ambiguity of any political or cultural enterprise. I just don't see how those twelve exceptional, demonic years can cause such doubt over the whole people or enterprise. Why does not the terror of Stalinism raise such doubts about Russians, or the terror bombing of German cities in WW2 or the illegal blockade of WW1 raise doubts against the English? And what of Mao's rule of China or the Serbs in Bosnia?

All humans are capable of expanding and contracting the boundary of love (us vs not us). Preserving and widening that boundary is a central to our vocation of being human. When we feel sufficiently threatened, we can close ranks and become very dangerous. What was unique during the NAZI rule was not the virulence of the tribal regression itself, but the means to enact it on such a wide scale.
02:18 July 10, 2011 by olog-hai
Hmm. Would this be the same Germany whose courts continue to deny reparations to WWII victims on the grounds that slavery is still considered (by them) "legal" under international law . . . ? Is this the same Germany that reinvoked the Munich Agreement back in 2008 for the sake of Sudeten German "expellees" to squeeze the Czech government for reparations to them, as well, and is also bullying Poland and Italy over similar things? The same country whose armed forces are using the training manuals of the Wehrmacht and SS? Never mind how the wording of the Grundgesetz actually strongly limits free speech instead of allowing it (look at the contradictory wording of Article 5).
08:09 July 10, 2011 by harcourt
That's very interesting what you write olog-hai I'm wondering whether anybody will try and refute your contribution.
13:15 July 10, 2011 by Jerr-Berlin
...I was talking with my German friend "Frederich" ...a very responsible employee with a "major" German company...and in general, a really good guy..."only the Germans could have done this" ...I said what?..."only the Germans could have done this!...referring to the events from 1933-45 Germany...perhaps he's right...perhaps there is this 1933 DNA Nazi gene problem in every German...not that I think this of course...just a true ancedote over conversation we had a few years ago....
16:46 July 10, 2011 by harcourt
I've had the very same experience a few years ago. Unfortunately it was about the Holocaust. The quote from a very good German friend of mine was, "Only the Germans could have killed so many in such a short time, due to their organisation skills and efficiency " - I swear this is a genuine quote.
10:29 July 11, 2011 by GermanEngineering
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
10:38 July 11, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Eric Best - You make a decent point, but the means were not unique, as sadly history has shown us since then.

Olog-hai - You make a lot of claims. I would love to see your citations. Who have the Germans failed to pay? The Greeks? The Poles? That is nonsense.

The German government lent their paper copy of the Munich Agreement to the Czechs in 2008. That's not the same as reinvoking it. I suggest you post the article where you read that and we will properly explain it to you.

The Sudetendeutsch were "expelled", just like the East Prussians or the Germans in Western Poland. Just like the Greeks of the Black Sea in 1922. And the Czech government actually has been asking them to come back and invest for about a decade. Very few have taken them up on the offer.

And I take particular issue with your bit about the Wehrmacht and Training manuals of the Bundeswehr. There are references to successful WWII operations in the Bundeswehr manuals. Everyone who knows the Bundeswehr Training Methods knows this. Some of the mauals quote German military figures from the period. They do not use Nazi training materials. Huge Difference. The Israelis built their entire tank Strategy on Guderian. He has been hugely influential worldwide. Quoting Guderian in a book about tanks, is not the same as using the Nazi manual he used to train his tankers.

Truth is stronger than hyperbole. Your argument is the epitome of weakness.

Lastly. Article V of the Grundgesetz is awesome. QED.

Jerr-Berlin - That kind of Statement is pretty commmon among guilty people. Other groups have killed more. But maybe he's right concerning Prussians. My Frau gets well violent when she is angry.

Harcourt - Your friend was wrong. Mao killed more, and he was sloppy and didn't brush his teeth.
11:07 July 11, 2011 by olog-hai
Truth . . . ? Still waiting for it out of "ryhntyntyn", who tries to accuse others of "hyperbole" while making a post completely composed of it.

Have a look at this for example: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,769703,00.html Germany certainly has taken the low road when it comes to debt offense.

The stance of groups like the Sudeten German Homeland Association is certainly not the same as what you claim out of hand sans proof. Consider the positions of groups like the Prussian Trust and the Silesian Homeland Association too. Example of "Silesian" aggression: http://www.taz.de/index.php?id=archiv&dig=2007/07/02/a0039 "Silesia isn't in Poland"??

The Bundeswehr is given material that speaks highly of people like Paul Karl Schmidt and Oskar Ritter, especially out of the MGFA. Are you denying that the Wehrmacht was a Nazi force?

Clause 2 of Article V is very dangerous: "These rights (freedom of expression, speech, the press, etc.) shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor." Any new law can suddenly trump those rights, therefore. If you think that's "awesome", then you must have some serious character flaws, WADR.
12:16 July 11, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
The Spiegel Article doesn't show Germany having taken the low road. The Americans reduced Germany's overall debt in the 50's because they wanted to rearm them and use their country as the main playing field in the supposed coming fight against the Soviets. The Germans accepted the risk, gambled and won. Are you somehow unhappy that the cold war never went hot, and torched all of central Europe? More Rubbish. Low road indeed.

The German Homeland Association, the Silesian Trust and the Prussian Trust are not, nor have they ever been the German government. So that settles that. The Speech that old Horst gave at that meeting you cited, did not demand the return of former German parts of Poland, or the Czech Republik, or reparations from same. Instead he promised that the loss of those areas would be better taught about in schools.

You get confused like that easily. You seem to think it's ok to post that the bitter rhetoric of a 75 year old Silesian exile is the same as the government of Germany's official position vis avis its neighbors. It is not. That certainly sounds better if one is out to provoke or stir up trouble. But it surpasses Hyperbole because it's a blatant misrepresentation of the truth. In English we would call that lying.

Just like when you say that quoting Guderian is using a Nazi manual. you seem to forget the importance of prepositions. Big difference between "a Nazi Manual" and "Nazi in a Manual."

Again, the Israelis, the Russians, the US, the Brits and anyone else with a Tank corps that is well trained use Guderian, and in his political views he was a whacko. So what? He knew how to use tanks.

Clause 2 is not Dangerous, this just shows that you actually don't understand what that clause means. The press' right to display minors is limited. The press does not have the right to libel and slander. The general laws in question refer to hate speech and violating people's human dignity. Can you read German? Have you read the law against Volkverhetzung? You think that's bad? The press in the UK is also limited from Slander and Libel. That's not bad. In Canada, if you are going to broadcast propaganda you can't call it news. That's not dangerous. It's good policy.

My character has nothing to do with my arguments. Although it does often cause me to lose my temper when dealing with half-wits and and ill educated provocateurs like your self. Althought I have to say the fact that you are a half wit has nothing to with your arguments. Those fall apart on their own.
14:19 July 11, 2011 by harcourt
ryhntyntyn #46

It's hardly worth replying to your observations when you can't even read the comment. The point was NOT how many were killed, it was the speed and efficiency with which it was done. - Your worries about clean teeth and sloppiness tells readers a lot about you!
16:45 July 11, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
I read your comment. Your friend is still wrong.

Germans aren't born with skills and efficiency. Those are part of a cultural reputation that is true in some regions and industries of Germany and in others not accurate at all. And the Nazi's weren't all that efficient either.

Your response begs the question that if they were so superior in efficiency then why did they lose the war? But even though it begs the question, I could care less about your answer. Why? Because they were not in fact, so efficient.

Let's do the math together, shall we? We will compare, for science' sake the Nazi Genocide and the Rwandan genocide. The Nazi Genocide starts arguably in force in 1940, even though they didn't get the camps built until a year later they were already taking people out in the woods to shoot them in groups. So that's 6 years of Genocide. 6 years is 2190 days. In those 6 years they killed 12.2 million people. This is the acceptable estimate unless one is some sort of filthy revisionist. I will assume you are not. That gives the Nazis an average of 5570 victims per day. Ok. That's frikking awful.

Now Rwanda had 100 days of Genocide in 1994, in which according to the UN and or the BBC ca. 800,000 people were killed. The OAU says the estimates vary between 500,000 and 1,000,000. At the UN/BBC estimate that's 8000 people a day on average. At the OAU median it's 7,500 a day, at the lowest estimate of death it's "only" 5000 a day. Even at its lowest per day it's also frikkin' awful and perilously close to the Nazi rate per day.

In this comparison The Hutus manage to murder 7/10 Tutsis with machetes, guns and fire in 100 days, this is without the much lauded efficiency and resources of the Nazi State. If even the median estimate of dead is accurate they could kill more than 2500 more people per day than the 3rd Reich, and you call the Nazi system efficient? Enough to ascribe it to some backwards racist idea of German efficiency? So efficient that only the Germans, the "masters of efficiency" could achieve it? Rubbish!

The Hutus do not have a reputation for precision engineering, unless I am mistaken. So in terms of the speed and efficiency of the holocaust your friend was sadly uninformed. Like many Germans. And regardless of where you are from, like yourself.

I don't care what you think of me personally. The issues and the arguments are what is important. The discussion of policy shouldn't be left to charlatans like Olog-Hai or arguments that display the thoughtlessness or lack of thouroughness of their owners.
17:59 July 11, 2011 by harcourt
ryhntyntyn #50

In reply to another one of your endless diatribes I will just say that effiency and speed is no substite for cleverness. Something I notice in Germany every day!
19:09 July 11, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Harcourt etc. ad nauseum. You're just sore because you are finding that every time you post you stick your keyboard in your mouth. Learn to read faster. You'll learn something. Then you can use the internet to find a travel agent and go somewhere that you like, where the people are more to your liking.

I think the Jerries are a bit grumpy at times but I do like them. It would make no sense to stay here otherwise.
19:29 July 11, 2011 by farmon

ryhntyntyn does his homework. You and DOZ need to hit the books for awhile before you make to many more comments.
21:39 July 11, 2011 by Landmine
Ha ha, the picture for this article looks like the guy saying "I will shoot you in the forhead" and Merkel says " OMG! Don't scare me like that" lol.....
23:06 July 11, 2011 by ChrisRea

I must admit that your posts are much more informative and entertaining than the articles of The Local. The fun is equal only to the show of your opponents in this thread making themselves the laughing stock of the readership. Please don't stop! :)
01:01 July 12, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn & ChrisRea

Um, I hate to interrupt you two lovebirds but I'll just briefly add that the germans/nazis were indeed diabolically clever and efficient in both killing folks they labeled as undesirables and prosecuting the war. HeII, they came close to winning it - "it was a very close run thing".
07:53 July 12, 2011 by ChrisRea

Thank you for sharing the substance of my opinion, even if the form of your post is suboptimal (bad choice of words, bad timing) .
09:04 July 12, 2011 by harcourt
Landmine #54

Yes it is an amusing photograph. Another caption could be "...and this is where the bullet entered my head, and do you know, it didn't damage anything that I use very much in my daily life !!"
10:58 July 12, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
@lunchbreak You make a perfectly fair point. But that's not the crux of the above comments. The point wasn't "were they baseline efficient?" rather "were they so efficient because of their "Germanness" that only they could have done what they did?"

I think the answer to the latter is a well founded no. No they weren't so efficient as everyone thought, and no, others have since surpassed what they did. Were they efficient. Yes, in some ways. Were they racially efficient? No. Culturally? Sort of. For what that might be worth. Since it isn't an inherent trait (those don't really seem to exist), it can break. And it did. And thank goodness for that.
16:13 July 13, 2011 by lunchbreak
Its not that I don't forgive the germans for the rise of Hitler and his criminal gang, I can't forgive them for going along when it became apparent what monsters they were.
16:49 July 13, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Which Germans? The ones who actually did it? The ones who allowed it? The ones here today?
17:48 July 13, 2011 by neunElf
Very interesting the example of Germany's response to Fukushima.

"The cost will be worth it ­ the leading industry transformation of the 21st century promises massive profits through energy efficiency. Germany is already the market leader in a number of green sectors, with a share of the global market totalling between 15 and 20 percent."

I guess "goodness" is even better when you can massively profiteer at the expense of fellow countries who do not share your technological expertise?

Now if you were to give those technologies to other countries, not sell them, then I would concur with your judgment about German goodness, but if massive profits are a part of your calculus then I think you need to replace goodness with self-interest!
22:10 July 13, 2011 by montanisemperliberi
As an American I find this article very offensive. It is amusing that so many Europeans seem to have a negative attitude towards the States. For the most part Americans could care less what is going on around the world, I mean really, this is America, we have everything we need. That being said its a shame so many people have forgotten all of those heros who died on European battlefields in WW1 and WW2. We deserve your respect and frankly you should applaud our attitude bacause we seem to be the last nation in the world being swamped by immigrants (although this is happening as we type). Liberalism will destroy the world again.
23:19 July 13, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ montanisemperliberi,

If you reread your posting and understand why is it easy to be considered unsavory, then you will find out why other people (European or not) find that some Americans (not all, not even the majority) are arrogant, unscrupulous and so on. Let me know if you need help.
01:04 July 14, 2011 by lunchbreak
Thats OK ChrisRea, I think your opinion is suboptimal.
08:36 July 14, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
@montanisemperlibri - Interesting that you picked the motto of West Virginia as a name. West Virginia is known for it's wonderful landscape, but not for it's great thinkers... Sadly you are correct that far too many Americans could care less about what's going on around them or in the world. They do have everything they need, except unfortunately common sense.

If your countrymen do not care what is going on in the world, then why are their troops deployed anywhere outside of American soil? Especially if they have everything they need, which I presume includes security.

The Allied soldiers who died serving in WWI or WWII, deserve the respect they earned with their deaths. What makes you think that you or anyone else deserve any of that respect? The respect that someone earns by making a great sacrifice cannot be bequeathed. It has to be earned, over and over again.

The vast majority of Americans alive today had nothing to do with WWII, and the last WWI veteran died in February. Why in the world should the Europeans or anyone else, respect you or the rest of your Nation for something with which they had nothing to do?

Who could not recognize this unhealthy cultural obsession with who you are and not what you are actually saying or doing? Heritage is important, but not when you aren't living up to it.

It's like a lot of absolutely worthless people are writing checks on accounts that their grandparents opened, and have no idea that their ha been nothing there for quite some time. It will be a sad day when the collector comes to call.
15:36 July 14, 2011 by Universityprofessor
Readers' comments are proof again that most people have successfully been brainwashed and therefore do not know what really happened and what is really going on in our world. Between the end of WW II and 1997 the US were responsible for the killing of 41 m people worldwide,including 6 m children. All in the name of liberty, democracy and christianity. Of course, the Nazi period was a very evil period, but other nations were no better. The mass murderer Napoleon I is a hero in France and so are the warmongers Churchill and bomber Harris in the UK
21:32 July 14, 2011 by montanisemperliberi
Universityprofessor-I find your comment particularly amusing. 41 million people huh? I'd like to see some data on that one. Obviously your a liberal since you claim to be a professor so its hard to tell what you believe.

rintintin-How can you say that the people of Europe don't owe a debt of gratitude to the US? Your rational that you cant "bequeeth" this respect is ludicrous. If we hadn't supplied Britain and Russia with military aid and equipment most of Europe would be speaking German and National Socialism would rule. Its easy to dismiss the alternative world Europe would be living in if we hadn't come to the rescue since it never happened.

Also, your characterization of Americans as "a lot of absolutely worthless people writing checks on accounts their grandparents opened" is way off base and clearly delusional. The United States has been the flag bearer for democracy, human rights and innovation since the end of WWII. Use the internet much? Are we bad people bacause we don't sit idly by while communism, fascism and muslim extremism take over the world? Our troops are all over the world so that we can protect our national interests because we sure as heck cant rely on anyone else to do it. Granted Iraq was a mistake but as for that other place I cant spell what else were we supposed to do after 9-11? The troops were already deployed across the globe as a result of treaties put in place after WWII and if I'm not mistaken we have gradually drawn them down in certain areas.

When I say that most americans don't care what is going on around the world I actually meant that considering the breadth of our nation and the issues we face at home most people are more worried about finding a job and feeding their families. What happens in Europe has no immediate impact on our daily lives (short of a financial disaster of some sort). My point is that judging by the tone of this article and many of the comments it appears that many Europeans assume that because our goverment does something then we should all be blamed for it. That seems unfair and rediculous. There are 310 Million people over here.
22:52 July 14, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
I say it like this, the people of Europe don't owe a debt of gratitude to the US alone for the second world war.

Not in the way you seem to think they do.

And I'll tell you why.

1. Contrary to arm chair historians all over the US with a degree from HBO, the United States didn't win WWII by itself. I think your characterization of the US "rescuing" anyone rather than assisting in a group effort, shows who is delusional here.

2. If any debt was owed, it was like this: The people of Europe owed a debt back then to the people back then who risked something to help them. It was a people to people relationship. Not something you can inherit.

You didn't sweat buckets while welding an ariframe together, or slog up the beach and watch a friend blown to literal bits trying to push a bangalore torpedo through a wire to climb a cliff and kill some Nazis. That was a movie.

3. The Soviets "liberated" just as many people and suffered 11,700,000 more military casualties than the US. So hooray for the Red army! Except that they then repressed all those that they liberated and continued to "liberate" them until the 1990's. Which should they get credit for? The deeds of the father do not make the son great. Especially if the father turns out to be an tyrant in disguise and the son is a sniveling lickspittle.

And that's that. Each generation has to make the US, or their own country, great on its own merit.

The fact that America was prosperous in the 50's does not pay the rent today.

The flag bearer for democracy? I'm not going to go there. The US has pursued its own interests, which is what a country does, and should do, but don't wrap it up in a WWII poster and expect an attaboy. I think you should think about the fact that when things were good, Americans didn't care either, probably because things were too good. So when it's bad they don't care, and when it's good they don't care. When do they care then?
00:28 July 15, 2011 by Universityprofessor
The figure of 41 million people originates from a US-University.

The figure of 6 million children from UNICEF.

Can they be wrong?
02:53 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
Wow, my name may be lunchbreak but ryhntyntyn is someone thats really out to lunch.

ryhntyntyn, you owe the US everything - your ability to vote, your standard of living, even your freedom to write the nonsense you posted above. Without the americans its probable that would would be so conditioned and brainwashed by either the russians or the germans you wouldn't know up from down.

Show some respect for the sacrifices many american families made on your behalf in the past century because without that you won't make any personal progress in your life whatsoever.

06:22 July 15, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ ryhntyntyn,

I don't understand how can you say that America is not the flagship for human rights. Did you not learn in school about the example of Guantanamo?

America is also the best by far when it comes to innovation, it is not like old Europe. That is why the US made it to the 7th place in the top of most innovative countries in 2011 (in 2010 it was on 11th). Europe was able to get only 7 positions in the first 11 (#1, #2, #5, #6, #9,#10, #11).

As for democracy, you should be aware that the US is the top country in promoting it worldwide. It always supported financially and militarily only governments that were truly democratic. The examples are too many to be cited. But if needed, I believe all readers can contribute.

I hope you will not claim now that there are many nations that lost their sons and daughters fighting wars that are actually not their own, just because they fought as international coalitions the enemies US has made it by itself. You should understand that now and always the US gave everything and received nothing. That's what many contributors to this thread tried to make you understand, even if they did not come up with arguments that made sense. But who needs rational arguments, when propaganda is enough?
12:29 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ChrisRea

With the silly propaganda you spout its clear you have absolutely no need for rational argument. I especially enjoyed your digression about innovation. In view of your bias why not stop using the PC and the wider internet , both american innovations, we'll be glad to get your muddled opinions via snail mail.

Oh, and I chuckled about your connection with human rights and Guantanamo. Maybe the US should simply shoot its prisoners of war as they did here in germany not too long ago?

Learn some respect, in the end it will serve you well.
14:54 July 15, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Chris Rea - Indeed.

Lunchbreak - I am not from a background where there was any danger of being brainwashed by the Russians or the Nazis I am assuming you mean that without the US as a shining example that there would be no freedoms anywhere. The founders were English. The philosophers who inspired them were English, French, German, and Greek. The ideas used to create the revolution predate the revolution. Freedom was on its way, whether the American rebelled or not.

As for the rest, I don't need to reiterate. Once cannot inherit the status of a war hero. It has to be earned. The contempt heaped upon liars and braggarts in the US is suddenly forgotten when Americans start talking about the a war that is 70 plus years in the past that they did not fight.

And the Standard bearer of Freedom cannot also be the Nation that violates that Freedom in places like Guantanamo. Sadly it's an absolute. These things are true to the point of being truths and are almost inarguable, some would call them self evident. But you are welcome to try.
16:33 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

I don't why I bother replying to this gibberish, I must be very bored.

There might be freedom somewhere today without the americans but not in europe. Without us you'd all be saluting the Führer or in one of comrade Stalin's concentration camp gulags. And I'm very well acquainted with war heros as a member of my family died in a bomber over here in 1944 protecting your behind. I miss him.

As to your silly platitudes about standards of Freedom for prisoners of war in Guantanamo they are unworthy of comment.

I'm finished with the direction this thread has taken as of now. Have fun pretending you actually have a grip on this stuff. My comment about respect still stands but it is surely wasted here.
18:37 July 15, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak - You couldn't actually be more wrong. İ wasn't alive during WWİİ and as such, had no behind to protect. Your analysis, typically ignores Britain and the other allies and falls short.

We owe at least a passing respect to actual veterans depending on what they did, but those veterans are not you and they are not the United States of Now. You get no credit for your relative's death. And neither should anyone else but him. It's pathetic that you even bring him up from the safety of your computer chair.

İn addition, the strategic bombing campaigns were punitive more than strategic. Considering how many children burned to death in Hamburg and Dresden alone, İ would hesitate to name a participant a hero, unless they actually did something heroic, like refuse to kill children.

Despite this, any credit and or credibility the US had as the good guys was tapped out by Vietnam, Alliances with Murderous Dictators and Guantanamo Bay.

And if the idea the dignity of man is just a platitude to you then the US of which speak when we invoke the founders, is dead to you. And you shouldn't bother arguing, because it's pointless to defend a country in whose strengths you do not believe. Because the US was founded on platitudes and ideas. The US govt doesn't even recognize them as prisoners of war. Prisoners of war are afforded rights.

All the good of the one war can and has been wiped out by awful mistakes made since. The US is not a hero in Europe, just another super power of which they and the world have to be wary.
18:47 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

You couldn't be more confused or more wrong. I'm sorry for you.
18:58 July 15, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
You can keep the pathos. If you could muster a counter argument, then you would. The fact that you are slinking away shows exactly how indefensible the positions you have taken are.
19:35 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
Keep dreaming. You simply wore me out and I don't like to keep repeating the obvious. I've have better things to do than debate simpletons.
19:51 July 15, 2011 by farmon
You have to remember the reason the US was so successful in the 50's is because the rest of the world was blown up. But since then, the US has legalized abortion, killing about 60,000,000 of its unborn. Now it is broke and wondering how its shrinking workforce is going to support the ever increasing aging population. I suppose it will be uthanasia thats legalized by then.
20:07 July 15, 2011 by lunchbreak
It was mostly germany that was blown up in the war. The US threw off the depression with the coming of WWII and discovered its huge potential in that period, industrial and otherwise.

Thats a very good point about legalized abortion in the US. One of the reasons why illegal immigration has become such an issue along the america's southern border is because the US is not having enough babies. It is paying and will pay for this tragic mistake in many ways, now and in the future.
20:29 July 15, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak - If you want to disappear then do it, otherwise make an argument or a counter argument.

I don't mind you calling me a simpleton, I don't consider you qualified to make that value judgement about me, so your judgement is of little worth. We don't know each other, so I can't claim you are an idiot, nor would I.

But I will say that your arguments aren't very good and they are not well thought out. This explains your lack of anything to say that hasn't been said before and why are you are getting cross.

If you don't have a counter argument though, and I bet that you don't, then I don't blame you for being a bit angry. Because when I actually starting learning both sides of American history I got angry as well. Good Luck.

P.S. Germany's infrastructure had gone underground and a huge chunk of their industrial capacity if not their logistical transportation infrastructure survived the war. It's one of the reasons for the Wirtshaftswunder, besides the Marshall Plan of course.

PPS. I would love see some proof that a low birth rate in the US is the reason why illegal immigration has become an issue. I will of course wait in vain.
01:20 July 16, 2011 by Klaipeda
"Germany was once a strong yet evil country". The author of this article sounds like an idiot. He would excel and get promoted fast teaching school in the USA.
08:13 July 16, 2011 by lunchbreak
Before you talk about being promoted in the USA on an english website Klaipeda you should at least learn the language.
09:31 July 16, 2011 by Ivan Jokiq
Greeks , (Eurozone Peoples, and All Round the world), Do not Export, (or Remove) yours existing savings - deposits.

At times like now, constantly satisfy the Pythagoreans, Greek, algorithmic, Enzymogeneis Roles (everybody¦#39;s and especially the Greeks, due to increased Structured [the Asvesti Structured Greek Language Ichor] induction thoughts and actions
10:33 July 16, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ lunchbreak,

It is pretty low to pick on the language abilities of someone who most probably does not have English as a first language. Especially when his/her message is perfectly intelligible. But I guess one has to refer to form when has nothing to say about the content.
16:12 July 16, 2011 by harcourt
My God!! 86 comments and counting !!
17:12 July 16, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ChrisRea

Whether Klaipeda's message is intelligible is arguable. Whether the content is intelligent would be another story altogether.
18:08 July 16, 2011 by Sastry.M
Reading all the above comments one can definitely observe that whenever Germany or the German people come up for discussion whether with praise or abuse all aspects of human nature and dimensions open up with true soul searching by commentators. Unless absolutely biased against them the plus points keep pointing to German achievements as native Europeans as well as domiciled U.S nationals.As a German writer (Hans Hellmut Kirst , vaguely I remember) truly observed that everything goes on a large scale with the Germans. Their innate characteristics probably developed under a constant vigil as a central European nation being surrounded and exploited by more powerful and self assured nations of strongly defined national character. Fight for daily bread probably gained more priority than flair for self serving politics. In any case there is much for other people to emulate from true German character than abuse them unduly with self ignoring wisdom.
20:03 July 16, 2011 by JG_London
I found the original article very thought-provoking.

Living in Britain and so digesting the British news media, one very rarely hears of the German position on world events. Instead we receive a relentless and rarely questioned flow of American viewpoints. Thus, regarding the various middle eastern conflicts over the last decade, for example, the US stance was typically protrayed as the natural, reasonable standpoint, with Germany's perspective only spoken of as being in opposition to the US.

Some commentators in the discussion thread appear to want to characterise the debate as the USA versus Germany, why? It is perfectly possible for nations with a number of shared values to have diverging views. Indeed, this is extremely healthy in my opinion.

The British political and social position of 'America's right, let's follow them and only ask later whether it's any good for us to do so' has led the UK into Iraq in terms of armed combat, significant fiscal deficits fuelled by the US's obsession with outsourcing jobs to feed big businesses' profits, and bland, juvenile cinema, to name just one aspect of popular culture imported from across the Atlantic.

Let us in Britain hear more of Germany's outlock on political and social matters, after all the two countries are major EU partners and arguably share more in terms of social mores than do the UK and US.
01:40 July 17, 2011 by Klaipeda
If the Americans would build a memorial to the three hundred years of slavery of Africans and the genocide of the Native Americans instead of building a holocaust museum on every street corner in the USA they wouldn't be such hypocrites. They have been spreading hatred of the Germans for about 100 years now. As the Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein has documented, the Holocaust is a profit making machine with multiple benefits to the Jewish community, one being the accunulation of political power. And make no mistake about it, AIPAC and the ADL are the most powerful lobbies in the USA, directing foreign policy in the middle east. When Israel massacres 1,400 Palestinians, the American congress and senate knows not to say peep and then they welcome the Israeli Prime Minister with a standing ovation.
14:26 July 17, 2011 by lunchbreak
Well, if the germans hadn't done such hateful things in the last century they might have gotten a pass Klaipeda. And if the jews are turning a profit from all the stuff you did to them I'd say they are welcome to it. Whatever money they see is small compensation for the generation of european jews the germans nearly wiped out.
16:55 July 17, 2011 by harcourt
You're right lunchbreak I'm not Jewish and dislike some of the things the Israeli state does BUT It really gets me when the Germans who say we have come tó terms with our past are the same ones that point out ( like Klaipeda ) " If you think we were bad what about x y and z and the awful things they did way back when ". Basically that is a stance which is trying to play down what they did by comparison. The bottom line is the have not come to terms with the past.
17:46 July 17, 2011 by Klaipeda
The problem with some Americans (like Lunchbreak) is that they are ignorant of the blemishes of their own history, or simply ignore them (even after its pointed out to them). They know almost nothing about the history of other parts of the world and they are easily swayed by hate and propaganda.

There are Europeans that are upset by what is now known as the "Holocaust Industry", a blackmail and extortion racket by Jewish organizations to extract billions of dollars from Europe and there is at least one prominent Jew named Norman Finkelstein that was upset by what was going on and has written extensively on these abuses.

Considering American foreign policy, it wouldn't surprise me that they would be alright with anything Jews do.
19:11 July 17, 2011 by lunchbreak
Thats right Klaipeda, the jews and the americans are ruining the world. Welcome to 1939.

Well at least you're honest. There are a lot of germans who believe the same thing but are too frightened to say it. Its no secret that a lot of people here in Deutschland learned nothing from the german fascist Götterdämmerung. The Nazis, the Taliban and Al Queda deserve each other, they all hate the same things. Enjoy the company.
22:08 July 17, 2011 by farmon
I see all this hate towards Germany. You all need to study the treaty of Versailles. It was pure hate that drove this treaty. President Wilson reluctantly signed it while American Irish and American Germans were totally against it. It repressed the Germans to the extent that the Germans had no other choice than to have a Hitler like savior. Germans are among the most moral people in the world.
00:17 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Sure farmon, the way the Nazis behaved was the allies fault and Hitler was the german messiah. The gas ovens were just a very moral german way of escorting the jews, gypsies and homosexuals to heaven.
02:26 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda
Lunchbreak believes the high school history he was taught because that is all he knows. In Americans view they never did anything wrong and Jews certainly never did anythying wrong. Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say " jews and the americans are ruining the world". You said Germans are the cause of all the worlds problems and they ruined the world. And you have been saying the same thing for 100 years.

The USA has been lead by a leadership of murdereres for years now. Al-Qaeda? Americans have been crossing the ocean to kill Arabs all over the middle east for many years and then they're surprised Arabs finally hit back. George Bush is no better than Al-Qaeda. Stop attacking Arab countries and murdering their people and they won't attack you. And the west also needs to be fair regarding the mideast conflict. As of now, the USA defends anything Israel does, including murder.

Lunckbreak, you are the one claiming to be perfect and that other people cause all the worlds problems. You don't know how Germans think. Back then, nor today.

You murdered 1 million Iraqis based upon your politicians lies. You attacked Afghanistan and killed many people there. Now you are killing Libyans. You are also threatening Iran with a militarty attack. You obviuously support all this murder.

WW II was terrible and the crimes Germany committed have been talked about in the media milliions of times. But the war crimes the "allies" committed are ignored or denied. Lunchbreak, did you know allied soldiers gang raped two million German women before murdering many of them? Why have Americans ignored that for 65 years. Do you support that?
06:02 July 18, 2011 by heyheyhey
@whpmgr, harcourt and Lunchbreak.

Just shut your freaking mouths, will you? You are ugly Americans and continue to display your ugly, irrational, deluded thinking each and every time you post. As an American I would ask you to consider that you set a very bad example. You are brainwashed. You have studied history from books that are so terribly biased pro-America that truth and reality are no where to be found in them. I studied from the same books. I know what you learned. Please just go away and stop posting. You irritate, like a bad smell from a factory farm.
07:28 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
Upset are we !!
11:02 July 18, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
JG_London - If you want Germany's outlook. Learn German. Then talk to them.

Klaipeda #91 - You do not know who the most powerful lobbies in the US are. The lobby representing Jewish interests is strong. That is not a bad thing. The US position vis a vis Israel is expensive in terms of international political clout. Some American politicians & their constituents think it worth it, others not. If Israel keeps on oppressing the Palestinians, which they should not do, then support for them will become very expensive internationally.

But. the "Jews" don't run or ruin the world. They are one group of people jockeying for influence like everyone else. Your opinions smack of irrationality & hatred. That kind of skewed thinking belongs in the past.

Lunchbreak - I wouldn't ever write any group a blank check. The Germans last century did what they did & it was awful. The Germans since the war haven't done such a bad job. What is the source of your frustration with these people?

Harcourt #93 - The bottom line is that if you think that Klaipeda is representative of the whole country in terms of the Vergangenheitsbewältigung, then you have reached bottom. The Germans do an ok job coming to terms with the past. It's not perfect, sometimes not even good. Compared with Japan, or the CIS (née USSR) it's great.

Klaipeda #94 - No. The problem with some people in general is ignorance of their own history & repetition of past mistakes. This comment is proof that Americans are not alone in this...

Lunchbreak #95 - I've been in here quite some time, travelled extensively & met a lot of people. the people I have met who I could say I felt learned nothing from the utter destruction of this country in the war & the abomination that was fascism are thankfully few & far between. Their government policies & their societal condition prove you wrong.

Farmon #96 - The 1933 Germans had plenty of choice. They made the worst choices possible & todays Germany would agree that they not only had a choice but chose poorly. While that reflects well on them, anyone who has ever queued to buy bread here would not call them the most moral people in the world.

Klaipeda #98 - Lunchbreak is neither claiming perfection & also has not murdered that many millions of people. The Soviets (including Baltic conscripts) raped their way across Eastern Europe. Please be more specific. Many people have been acculturated to think that so much killing is ok. Maybe someday we will all learn. But they will not learn from you. Not like this.

Heyheyhey #99 - Harcourt might not be American. I do not know if he/she or Lunchbreak is ugly, & while I have disagreed with them both in this thread, I do not think that they should stop posting. There's room for everyone on the internet.

Harcourt #100 - I have almost changed my mind. You are not Yoda.
12:37 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
Hi ryhntyntyn:

I'm British and over 70 yrs old so could you please explain Yoda to me. As long as it is not obscene of course!!
12:46 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Over 70! You see, harcourt is Yoda!

Well organized post ryhntyntyn. The source of my frustration with these people you ask? Reading the postings of confused people like Farmon & Klaipeda (and heyheyhey) when they are angry shows you what they really think. And they're not alone by any means around here.
12:50 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
Is anybody going to let me into the secret??
13:28 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Google Star Wars :-)
14:08 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda
ryhntyntyn: Maybe if you read books instead of getting your information from comment sections on articles you would know more. Read "The Israel Lobby" by the American Professors Walt and Mearsheimer - They are from Harvard and University of Chicago. There is no doubt Jewish lobbies are the most powerful lobbies in the USA affecting foreign policy. I didn't say Jews "run" or "ruin" the world. You have the same problem that afflicts many Americans that allows Israel to torture and maim Palestinians and shoot grandmothers and children. That problem is that any perceived criticism of Israel or Jews (as in the Jewish lobby) has to be opposed and crushed immediately. The Jewish lobby is powerful enough to fire the famous White House Reporter Helen Thomas who knew and interviewed every president since John F Kennedy. She is an Arab-American, criticized Israel and was fired the next day (last year). Screaming "anti-semitism" is their powerful weapon to getting their way on everything and you are one of their tools. When the actor/director Mel Gibson began making his well received movie "The Passion of the Christ" in 2003 (this was long before he was arrested driving drunk in which he supposedly made an "anti-semitic" comment) Jewish groups immediately began branding him an anti-semite and the Jewish owned newspaper The New York Times attacked him viciously in articles for making a movie about Christ. They insisted he change it for them. Since then he has been run out of Hollywood.

My figures are accurate. Allied soldiers raped 2 million German women, gang raping and murdering many of them.


"The article says "Sweeping across German territory, many of the Russian soldiers burned, killed, looted. And they also raped German women. The Soviets, of course, weren't the only ones; soldiers from other Allied armies were also guilty of sexual violence as they moved into Germany from the West. But most agree that the problem was particularly acute in eastern Germany. Historians estimate that close to 2 million German women and girls were raped in the closing months of the war, many repeatedly."

If you're ignorant and then insist you're an expert I can't help you. The USSR was Germany's biggest enemy in the war and the Great Britain and USA were the communist and mass murderer Stalin's most important ally. The sentence clearly indicates the Soviets were not the only rapists, Americans and British raped also.
14:09 July 18, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Harcourt - Yoda is a character in a movie. Your post sounded to me exactly like something he would have said.
14:15 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda

Your satement:

Klaipeda #94 - No. The problem with some people in general is ignorance of their own history & repetition of past mistakes.

I agree. You might be ignorant of your own history, but I'm not arguing about that. I know that you know next to nothing about German history, only the hatred you have been brought up on. My mother and her entiire family were driven out of eastern Germany, like 20 million other Germans when the criminal allies ethnically cleansed eastern europe (what was Germany before the allies stole this land). I know my history, you know nothing of it.
14:32 July 18, 2011 by DinhoPilot
Some people here smoke a strong material. Next thing, they starting telling that the Jews that died during in the concentration camps, tripped. Weirdos...
14:47 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ DinhoPilot

The next thing is to deny people were killed in the camps but thats been tried already. The soviets did mistreat the germans terribly. They considered it payback for the shocking way the germans treated the russians whom they considered subhuman when the germans were on a roll thru russia. A sad example of the principle of karma - you reap what you sow.
14:54 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
lunchbreak and rhyntyntyn :

Thanks guys I'm flattered I've just seen some pictures of Yoda and I'm smaller and much more hairy BUT I don't have pointed ears !! I was totally unaware that posters on this The Local site were so juvenile, forgive a small hairy old man !
15:22 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Juvenile! The Star Wars franchise is over 30 years old. It must get cold in that cave in the wintertime.
16:04 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
lunchbreak : You must know that the age of a film, book or indeed a person doesn't guarantee it not being juvenile!
16:05 July 18, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Harcourt ­ I had no idea you were a Senior. I will continue to disagree with you, but I will be more respectful of your age in the future.

Lunchbreak #110 ­ I agree with you to a point. The adults that allowed Hitler to take over and continue to reign at the time were fully responsible for what happened. But what about the children? What should they have reaped?

Klaipeda - You don't know me, my background, where I am from, or what books I've read, Why would try and make it personal? No one has time for anti-semitic conspiracy theorists. So don't be one.

And if one doesn't want to get driven out by the Soviets, then one shouldn't invade the Soviets. Don't blame the brutal invasion of the USSR and the subsequent Rape of East Prussia on the Jews. Blame it on the Führer (and those who put him in power) and his Generals. Then blame the Gauleiter who wouldn't let the Ostpreuß evacuate in time. That's a responsibility that does lie squarely on the backs of the German people of the war years. Sadly those people purchased the fate of an exile for you in 1941. It¦#39;s a bitter fate, and I am very sorry. But you won¦#39;t win any sympathy with your bitterness by blaming the wrong people for what happened. In fact I think you will find little profit in blame at all…

I know your history far too well. If you want to tell me I don¦#39;t that¦#39;s fine. But I would strongly suggest you tell us why, otherwise, you are just blowing smoke.

We know the Soviets systematically raped everything they could get their hands on from Murmansk to the Oder. Especially East Prussians. That's where your statistic of 2 million comes from. Robert Lilly's Taken by Force: Rape and American GIs in Europe during WWII, estimates that there were 14,000 rapes committed by US personnel both on the continent and in the UK and France between 1942 and 1945 with more than half the number being in the UK and France. The main difference between the Soviets and the Western Allies is that the crime of Rape was prosecuted in the US and British militaries. When officers caught it, they prosecuted it. The Russians used it as a tool of conquest. I asked you to be specific. 97% of the Rapes in the European Theater of Operations were by the Soviets, who would not have been there at all had they not been invaded in the first place…
16:45 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak

But what about the children?

Its the duty of all children to show respect, in this case for the facts and the people that saved them, their country and the european continent from a hellish 1000 year Reich. They also have a duty to refrain from moral equivalency which is another way of saying what germany did was not so bad because you're not perfect either.

Its clear here from all the obfuscation by many posters that this kind of respect is a lesson is still to be learned. Perhaps this is in itself a lesson for the US and its allies now and in the future.
17:20 July 18, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak -As usual, your lack of clarity has confused me.

So the Europeans are Children? And the US is the adult?

Or are you saying that the Europeans owe the Russians for saving them from the 3rd Reich?

Or are you just dredging up the old line of "Without us, y'all would be speaking German!"

Because we have been through all of those, and you didn't have anything to offer, you just sort of crept away.

I think I was actually asking a different question, actually we both know I was asking a different question, but by all means, please continue. In between the Amazing American Jingo Parrot and the half-crazed Memmellander glass of Bitter, I just can't get enough. It's like reality TV, but without the visuals. And thank goodness for that.
18:24 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda
Rintintin: There is no anti-semitic conspiracy theory coming from here, only ignorance coming from you. I cited a bestselling book by Harvard and University of Chicago Professors. The story of Helen Thomas is a well known fact. If you don't know who she is and what happened then you're ignorant. I have a lot of respect for some Jews, people like Norman Finkelstein. But the Jewish lobbies AIPAC and ADL work so Israel can commit murder and not be critcized. And you are an example of how successful they have been. You have respect foir all Jews, including murderers and you know not to criticize any of them because that is verboten in the west. You just bring up the same old tired accusation of anti-semitism because that is what is repeated over and over again in the western media. These are accusations of anti-semitism without substance.

Meanwhile the USA continues to spread its hatred of Germans, building holocaust museums all over the country, completely ignoring the 300 years of slavery and genocide against the American Indian. I know you are a hypocrite Rintintin.
18:30 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Its not my lack of clarity that confuses you ryhntyntyn, it's your inability to see the reality of the situation. But to your credit you are making the effort which is why you can't get enough. If the text is too much at the moment you are right, the truth as a visual would be excruciating.

Of course the europeans owe the russians for beating back the 3rd Reich although it was a bit like being hit over the head with a baseball bat to be cured of an enormous migraine headache. The twentieth century was not kind to europe which had to endure fascism from within and without. That old line >without us you would be speaking german right now> is classic. It has endured because it has the ring of truth.
18:43 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda
Lucnchbreak: It might be alright with me if American hypocrites like yourself would make an attempt at moral equaivalency. But you do much worse than that, you completely ignore the horrible history of murder and slavery the USA has and only talk about the negative history of other countries.

No memorials for slavery and blacks and and holocaust museums all over the USA. The USA is 3000 miles from Europe. You and Rintintin are both brainwashed

But I'll give credit to Rintintin, he knows Memel is Klaipeda.
19:03 July 18, 2011 by lunchbreak
Klaipeda: no points for bringing up slavery. The US outlawed it in the middle of the 19th century after an a fierce ongoing debate since the founding of the country in 1776. In the middle of the twentieth century the germans institutionalized slavery along with mass murder on a grand scale because they thought they could get away with it. You are right, there is no issue for moral equivalency here.
19:23 July 18, 2011 by Klaipeda
Bunch of no-nothing knuckleheads commenting on here. Two Americans that don't know a anything about German or European history. Absolutlely nothing, but they talk like they lived there.

Watch this video from Russia and learn something:

19:29 July 18, 2011 by harcourt
ryhntyntyn : #114

I would prefer you respect my arguments than my age, as I do yours (arguments not age). But you have to convince me !!
20:09 July 18, 2011 by farmon
One comment I haven't seen yet is that (The Jews are God's chosen people). The Germans most fatal mistake was killing them. God could not let the Germans be victorious after his promise to Abraham 4000 years ago.
01:33 July 19, 2011 by lunchbreak
Permitting the germans to wipe out most of european jewry is a very strange way to protect his chosen people. I think its very clear that God, if he, she or it is still around, doesn't give a damn about the chosen people or anyone else. If it means that to be one of the elect is to be gassed, shot, experimented on or expire behind barbed wire from disease, overwork and/or malnutrition I'll take a pass. Thanks, but no thanks.
04:13 July 19, 2011 by Klaipeda
Will the USA and Great Britain build a memorial to the genocide committed against Ukrainians in the 1930's?

The Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that the Ukrainian government wants to bring criminal charges against the perpetrators of the Holodomor which killed millions of Ukrainians thru mass starvation and the charges say that the perpetrators of his atrocity were Jewish. Here's the article:

10:02 July 19, 2011 by Sastry.M
Dear Sirs,

I am a foreigner among the commentators,an Indian aged 69y,but is related to the British both by erstwhile British Raj( Raj= Reign or Reich) and contemporary Commonwealth. I too share nostalgia of the sudden closure of an age old tabloid News of the World estd. 1843 in Britain. My father (1902-1972) and his forefathers were direct subjects of the Raj as well as members of Indian Freedom Fighters. Winning freedom under Washington's leadership the Americans beheld sympathy for freedom movements the world over and esp.to the Indian. The most appalling experience to U.S journalists occurred when the war for freedom from haughty and oppressive enactments and rule of British authorities was waged under the leadership of princess Laxmibai of Jhansi but failed betrayed by internal treachery. Then the miscreant fighter leaders were caught in batches and hung wave after wave witnessed with most horrifying consternation by American journalists but with a usual common experience by the native Indians.That was in 1857 which the closed NoW must have published from American reports if not censored by Her Majesty's Govt. This incident probably prompted a fitting reply from President Abraham Lincoln to a British journalist boasting of a never sun setting vast empire by saying that the sun is doing so to keep watch on British atrocities overseas. Of course there is no point in blaming all people of British Isles with a common guilt for many centuries of oppressive colonial rule.

Closing the 19'th century von Bismarck united all German states under one Reich with I&B policy faith/fight of conviction and diplomatic wisdom but made only one error of unrequited human pride from victory over France. The declaration of First Reich by forcing a diffident Kaiser Wilhem-1 at Hall of Versailles followed by rapid industrial and economic boom as a Wohlfart's staat ushered in neighbors' competitive jealousy but not hatred from fellow Europeans against German people and none from the U.S. If this progress did hurt mortally somebody both as competition and an impediment to their own established activities turning into hatred and a tirade of repeated abuse against the Germans it should be left to the discretion of concerned nationalities and people of whatever faith.

At present all wage earned living people the world over my sympathize with loss of employment of those of NoW closed establishment but dare not question the audacity of even the finger tips of a business magnate who held a pen and sealed their fate with his signature.That is why poor Oliver Goldsmith lamented over a Deserted Village more than two centuries ago by saying....Where wealth accumulates and men decay.. princes and lords may flourish or may fade .. a breath can make them as a breath has made...

Presently many peasants are committing suicide all mover India unable to repay micro-loans advanced by banks due to polluted environment and failing crops. --M.S.
11:41 July 19, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Klaipeda #117. Books are not always right. Mein Kampf is a good example.

Mel Gibson did say all of that awful stuff. He admitted it on Diane Sawyer. Helen Thomas retired after she advocated the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

The State of Israel treats the Palestinians in the same way your Elders treated the Jews of Europe. Brutally, unfairly and unjustly. So much for me supporting Israel and its apartheid like policies. My Question is this, since the Israelis are guilty whether by action or association or directly descended from the guilty, should they lose their country? Think hard.

I also do not hate the Germans. I quite like them. I think they are great. With a few notable exceptions.

Lunchbreak #118. I see the situation just fine. Americans want to live on the imperial laurels that they think they've "earned" by being related to the greatest generation. Yet the current generation hasn't earned anything. Talking to you about what Europeans "owe" you is like speaking to a rich kid who hasn't earned their money but wants all the prestige his grandparents earned. What have you done to earn such gratitude?

Any American worth their salt doesn't want or need European gratitude. The American lives sacrificed as part of a group effort to rid the world of Nazis were given without strings. The only thing America ever wanted in exchange was clay in which to charitably enclose the dead and a guarantee that there wouldn't be a repeat of the same asinine mistakes. Gratitude, fealty, and kissing the rear ends of the Liberators¦#39; spoiled children were not part of the deal.

Klaipeda #119. I've seen the Freedmen's memorial in Washington. Have you?

Lunchbreak #120. If you would describe the 500,000 casualties of the U.S. civil war as a fierce debate, I would say you have a gift for understatement. But, the ¦quot;Drang nach Osten¦quot; was modelled on the German understanding of the American push West. The Nazis often mocked American outrage by saying the same thing Klaipeda is saying, "So it was ok for you with the Indians..." Sadly, Slavery and the Native American Wars are a black mark on US history and there is no way to deal with those except for head on. Don't equivocate. It makes your argument weak. It wasn't right with the Native Americans. It wasn't right with the Nazis. Period.

Klaipeda #121. That is just stupid. In January 1940 when that letter was written, the Russians were getting their behinds kicked in Finland in a winter war. They needed the wool for the next wave of troops they would use to smother the Finns. Russian Times? Check your sources. Stick to books. Even flawed propaganda pieces like the Israel Lobby would be better than this garbage.

Harcourt #122. Ok. I'll try. I can't guarantee anything unless the argument has merit.

Sastry M.#126 The Sepoy Mutiny was marked by the murder of women and children. There is no honor in murdering the innocent even for "freedom".
14:26 July 19, 2011 by lunchbreak
ryhntyntyn: You may or may not see the situation but you post disingenuously. I may or may not have fought in Vietnam and/or the middle east (tho I've certainly helped to pay for these honorable fights) but I claim respect and gratitude of course not for my self but for the America that has lead the way to keeping you (assuming you live in the west) in the good life with all its attendant freedoms from 1917 onward. Your refusal to admit this basic political fact of life fatally injures any comments you make to the contrary.

Fair minded commentators can only pour scorn on the Nazi attempt to justify their reign of terror with the american indian wars in which opposing forces fought for the american continent with many settler and army casualties falling before indian onslaughts. The US army was on horseback as were the indians who also had guns. The german push east on the other hand was a mechanized slaughter of defenseless civilians who were either lined up and shot, raped or sent to concentration camps to die of hunger and disease.

Your attempt to equivocate these two dissimilar events makes your personal beliefs suspect. Period.
14:57 July 19, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #128. Where I live or where I am or where you are from is not the issue. Only what you are arguing. And unless you fought in WWI or WWII, then what you have done is also irrelevant. The fact that you paid taxes during wars, also gets you nothing. You didn't have a choice. Jane Fonda also paid her taxes during Vietnam. How much credit does she get?

I say you cannot claim that gratitude. If your Grandad puts out a fire at my house, what do I owe you? Let's say that when he get's old I mow his lawn for him, because I feel I owe him.

What do I owe you as his heir? I say nothing. I might feel closer to you then someone I don't know, it might even underpin a friendship. Then again, if you are a jerk. It might not.

And here you go again taking the coward's and the weakling's way out on the Nazi/Native American comparison. Indian Onslaughts? What planet are you from? You're saying it was a fair fight? The fact that you are even throwing this contrafactual rubbish out here means you are either woefully ignorant of the Indian Wars and the actual human toll of manifest destiny or you are simply lying to support an otherwise factually unsupportable argument. The technological advantage was with the Army. Once the US cavalry had Maxim guns, they used them to a frightfully sucessful advantage. Custer had them available, If Custer had actually taken the heavy guns, he wouldn't have died. He declined to take them because they would have slowed him down.

The difference that you outlined technologically actually disfavors your argument. Because the parallels are the same. The Nazis had the Blitzkrieg, while the Poles attacked the Wehrmacht Tanks with Cavalry.

Neither the Indian Wars or the Drang nach Osten had any justification. Neither are defensible. When a supporter of Nazism brings them up, the only way to go is through. It's part of a citizens responsibility, the same responsibility you claim the Germans are ducking. Namely: to take responsibility for the things in the past, which cannot be changed and for which the entire nation must bear responsibility and make amends.

And when an American makes arguments like the one you made above, they bring shame on their nation, their family and their upbringing. Man up Lunchbreak.
15:52 July 19, 2011 by lunchbreak
The only thing I bring shame on rytntyntyn is your own fragile ego and its inability to express gratitude to the people who have been protecting you and your family since you were born.

What drivel you spout about the maxim gun. It couldn't have been much use in most of the american indian wars as the first one produced was made in 1884. Apparently the early models were difficult to use and the effect was mainly psychological.

According to the Census bureau 1 white settler of soldier died for every 2 indians killed. In comparison 5 japanese soldiers died for every american serviceman in world war II.

So keep pushing your skewed view of the american indian wars if you can find an audience here. But your anti-americanism and your refusal to acknowledge the extent to which the US has kept you safe is getting very old. Try posting on another subject you might not be so emotionally blind about.
16:35 July 19, 2011 by Sastry.M
@ryhntyntyn--- Please refer to this link--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Indian_Rebellion_of_1857.

The narrative explains the causes of Sepoy Mutiny in general and particular sentimental irritations to soldiers of prominent religious faiths.

There is no mention of murdering women and children or any honor claimed by rebelling Indians for the sake of freedom. However I truly acknowledge your concluding remark in view of present day ground realities championed by major powers for the sake of "democracy" and "freedom" with wars waged against despotic rulers in support of that Ideal Cause and bear unintended losses with a spirit of sacrifice in search of everlasting peace and wisdom.
17:09 July 19, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #130. My ego is neither fragile nor the issue. Again, this isn't about me. It's about what Europe ows you. Where I am from, and my so called lack of gratitude a non issue. And since you didn't fight the wars in question or provide the good life for them, they owe you absolutley nothing. And an honourable American would want nothing from them anyway.

Correction. The Gatling Gun was patented in 1862. It was used throughout the western campaigns in the Indian wars. As well as the Hotchkiss Gun and the Maxim gun later on. It was the gun Custer decided against. Not the Maxim gun. The point stands. The Native Americans were outgunned. At Wounded Knee they used Hotchiss guns on women and children. Apparently you think that that is ok.

You use the term settler. Where were they settling? The empty lands west of the Mississippi? Empty except all those Natives, I guess. But they don't count right?

The Japanese had invaded islands in the Pacific. The US was expanding into Native territory. What's the difference to the Native Americans? The Japanese were the Aggressor nation in WWII. In the Indian Wars the bad guy is not the Natives. Do the math. You get no white hat.

First the natives had to leave the coasts. Then they had to go over the Mountains. Then they had to cross the Mississippi. Then into the desert. How much was going to be enough? Force them out, penn them up, watch them wither and die and if they disobey or try to escape, then kill them. Good Lord, we could be talking about the Warsaw Ghetto, or the Lakota, or the Palestinians. And what is your justification for this? If anyone reading this wants to justify Manifest Destiny's side effects on the Natives, then please do.

I don't need an audience. What I say is true, and you have yet to offer anything to contrary besides jingoism and half truth.

America looks best under the light of truth. I am not anti-American. In fact I would say that unhappy beverage can be split between you and Klaipeda. The latter for hating the US as part of the group that dismembered Memelland, and you for being an intellectual coward whose revisionist claptrap brings shame and embarrasment on any American who reads your pathic arguments as to why the slaughter of the Native Americans is so much more justifiable than the slaughter of Eastern Europeans.

At least Klaipeda is honest... I have argued the facts. And that no matter what my nationality is, that in terms of the History of the US and the reasons both to love and be ashamed of the US, that my eyes are wide open. There is a blind man here, and a wretched coward in this argument. But he isn't me.

Sastry M. #131. Thank you. I am well familiar with why the Sepoys of the Bengal Army rebelled against the Company. The causes of that rebellion do not and cannot excuse the murder of the memsahibs and their children at Lucknow, at Cawnpor, and at Dehli. There is no honor in claiming that rebellion as a war of independence.
17:47 July 19, 2011 by lunchbreak
ryhntyntyn: You ego is very fragile and is certainly the issue as is your insistence that this discussion is about me and not what I maintain which is that folks like yourself insist on biting the american hand that feeds it. Again, if it wasn't for the US you would be speaking german or russian right now. And perhaps in your case thats just what you deserve.

If the war in the pacific turns on the fact that the Japanese were the aggressors here is the first hand of account of Captain John Smith of the opening of hostilities in March 22, 1622. The Indians came unarmed into our houses with deer, turkeys, fish, fruits, and other provisions to sell us. Suddenly the Indians grabbed any tools or weapons available to them and killed any English settlers who were in sight, including men, women and children of all ages.

The was the opening of the american indian wars. Unlike the Japanese aggressors it took nearly 2 centuries to win the war.
18:12 July 19, 2011 by Klaipeda
My mistake. This includes the proper link to the newspaper article.

Will the USA and Great Britain build a memorial to the genocide committed against Ukrainians in the 1930's?

The Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that the Ukrainian government wants to bring criminal charges against the perpetrators of the Holodomor which killed millions of Ukrainians thru mass starvation and the charges say that the perpetrators of his atrocity were Jewish. Here's the article:

18:41 July 19, 2011 by harcourt
It's amazing that such an innocent article should elicit SO many comments. The only reason I can come up with, is the very idea that Germans should be more humble was a catalyst for some of the vitriolic comments on both sides. Plus of course a bit of anti- americanism in it.
23:38 July 19, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #133. I want to thank you for showing your true colors. Your ideas are racist and bigoted and ignorant of your own history and your comments show this. I bet you wish they had a delete or edit button on here.

1. I do not consider speaking German a punishment. If I spoke Russian I would consider it an advantage.

2. It is about you. I could personally think the US is the bees knees, and still think the Europeans owe you nothing. In fact, I do think that. You feel the Europeans owe you something, for a war in which you did not participate. Face it. That Band of Brothers? That wasn't you. It was HBO.

3. John Smith returned to England from Jamestown in 1609. He was not there for the first of Opechancenaugh's massacre of 1622. Fail.

Jamestown had the permission of the Powhatan to be there, by treaty.The colonists were fully cognizant of the fact that they were in someone else's land. Opechancenaugh wanted the Europeans to leave. They were illegal immigrants you see. He thought they would be trouble. He was right.

Jamestown's fight with the Powhatan Confederation was exactly that and nothing more. A limited conflict between 1 Nation and the English. Not the Americans. There were none at the time. Natives considered themselves separate peoples from each other. The Powhatans did not have the authority to declare war on behalf of everyone. And even so their war would have been with the English, not the US. And peace by treaty was established in 1646.

But, the Powhatan would have thought your idea of such a declaration of war ludicrous. As do I, as would almost anyone else. Unless of course you believe that all Indians are the same, which is exactly what your statement means.

Sadly we are left with either you being simply and pathetically wrong, both morally and in terms of facts or a bigoted racist. Or both. I think that's the best answer.

The American Indian wars start once there are Americans running around. And those don't get there until 1787. Had the war begun in 1622 and ended "nearly" 2 centuries later that puts us at 1822 which is sadly inaccurate and further shows that you do not understand your own history.

The American Indian wars start after there is an America in 1787, they continue until all of the first nations are either subjugated and reduced to savagery or destroyed. Good for you Lunchbreak. Be proud. And the Jamestown colonists of whom you are so proud bought their first African slaves in 1619. Excellent work!

I happen to think that everyone involved in the American Indian wars actually lost, from the Natives whose way of life was destroyed and whose people were slaughtered to the emerging nation that stained their history in perpetuity with blood. But that's just me and everyone else without a while hood and robe under their bed. Your ideas will prove how little worth they have in time. I won't sweat the garbage you are posting. Maybe you are drunk.
23:59 July 19, 2011 by lunchbreak
Maybe I'm drunk? Thats all you have left? As these long meandering posts of yours don't help your case in any way, you're quite simply another boring anti american splattering nonsensical and rude scatter gun insults that no one has any patience for except me and I've run out. Nothing you've had to say is in any way convincing but go on pretending everyone is hanging on your every word. I hope for your sake you're the one thats drunk.
00:14 July 20, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #137. I'm a Teetotaler actually. I'll recap for you. It wasn't just drunk. It was drunk, racist, and completely wrong from the dates to the morality to the implications of your own misguided arguments which draw on a mixed up history that would embarrass the hardest of dropouts. I think that about sums it up. Your post is the epitome how a little knowledge (pathetically little in this case) is more dangerous than none.

And again, I think America is fab. I just don't think Europeans have to indulge your HBO induced delusions of grandeur... Oh, and killing people is wrong. ..

...and so are you. Cheers.
01:23 July 20, 2011 by lunchbreak
America is fab? Just like the Beatles?

You can't even begrudge a proper compliment but at least you've discovered that killing people is wrong. Its a step forward for someone whose world view is so lopsided.
07:10 July 20, 2011 by farmon

lunchbreak is either an atheist, gay or both. He really needs to shut up. From what I have read from your comments, we could drink a beer together and discus a lot of news happenings around the world. Keep up the good work.
08:15 July 20, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #139. Yep. Or even better. America is just super. Hows that? Better?

Whichever adjective we use, it won't cover the fact that you have ignored any use of facts in your recent replies, and resorted to trying to distract rather than deal with the core issues, concerning which you have no ground on which to stand. Again just to bring us back on topic.

A. You didn't liberate them so Europe owes you nothing.

B. Decent Americans want nothing from Europe except for freely given goodwill and a table at the Schottenhammel.

C. The American Indian wars were a loss for all concerned.

D. When discussing the Drang nach Osten, the only credible answer to give when the Indian wars are brought up, unless like yourself someone thinks that sort of thing is ok, is that two wrongs don't make a right. US society came around to that in the 1970's. You will be expected to catch up
08:34 July 20, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ lunchbreak,

How come that when ryhntyntyn points out historical, verifiable facts you answer only with personal (and therefore subjective) opinions? Are you not able to be support your statements with facts? How come that you have to attack the person and not the idea? Is it because of the anti-Germanism that you try to spread around?

@ farmon

My guess is that lunchbreak is neither atheist nor gay. Nor black. If he would be any of these, he would have to exercise having an open mind. Anyway, the religious belief, the sex and the sexual orientation, the colour of the skin, the nationality or the height are not important in a battle of ideas.
12:44 July 20, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ farmon

Yes I confess: I am a gay atheist, how did you know?

Good luck with your invitation to Klaipeda. Maybe you two can get together to, um, discuss a lot of news happenings around the world. ;-)

@ ryhntyntyn

Yes the US is super. But let me correct some persistent misapprehensions on your part:

A. Europe owes me nothing personally. Europe owes the US a lot.

B. Decent Americans expect europe's goodwill and respect for services rendered in two world wars and the continuing expenditure in blood and treasure that benefits this continent.

C. The American Indian wars were a loss for the indians but a win for the future of western civilization.

D. When discussing the Drang nach Osten, the only credible answer to give when the Indian wars are brought up is that one event had nothing to do with the other.

@ ChrisRea

Anti German feelings did not start with my views on this thread. Maybe the way the rest of europe feels about the germans has something to do with the extremely brutal way they behaved in the last world war?
13:10 July 20, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #143. Progress of a sort.

A. Europe owed the US for the war that is for sure. But aside from goodwill toward the soldiers and politicians and widows of WWII, What else does that owing entail?

B. I take issue with the continuing expenditure of blood and treasure. Vietnam was not a European request, nor a European benefit. I do not think that post cold war Europe requested a great American bloodletting on their behalf. To which post cold war bloodletting do you refer then? And how does Europe owe the US for it?

C. That's rather glib don't you think? In what way did the slaughter of those Indians win the future for the West that couldn't have been won without killing the vast majority of them, and penning the rest of them up like animals?

The Japanese internment camps are kind of similar. Was it really nessecery to take all those people and make them into prisoners to help save the world from the Nazis?

The 21 medal of honor recipients of the 442nd Infantry would disagree. So would the rest of the Regiment and their families I think. I would as well.

D. This I disagree with on the grounds that it is incorrect, and that is the coward's way out. Again the Drang nach Osten was patterned on the German comception of American manifest destiny. They were copying the US.

The only honest way out , the only way out that avoids hypocrisy, especially if one is calling the Germans out on the war and the post war fallout is to admit that a comparison is valid but that two wrongs don't make a right and show by argument that the US is trying to do the right thing now. Be brave man. Americans are supposed to be brave. Why are you so afraid of the truth?

I think the Rest of Europe is Ok with the Germans these days. I think you think about the war too much.
13:29 July 20, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ lunchbreak,

You are right in this regard - you are not the source of anti-Germanism. Just like the latest Al Qaeda recruit is not the source of anti-Americanism. However, you clearly try to spread hatred against Germans. Like with your unsubstantiated statement that the rest of Europe hates German. Is this based on anecdotal evidence or do you have some facts to back it up? Apparently a 2008 poll ran by BBC across 34 countries actually put Germany on the first place as the most positively rated country worldwide. Quoting from the results: "The most widespread positive views of Germany can be found among its European neighbours, including very large majorities in Italy (82%), Spain (77%), Portugal (76%), and France (74%). Significant numbers in Great Britain (62%) and Russia (61%) also have favourable views of Germany." Hmm, let me see - France, Russia and Great Britain like Germany a lot. One could say that WWII is indeed irrelevant today for most of the people, but obviously not for some posters on this website.
16:52 July 20, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ChrisRea

Don't confuse regard for the economic success of gemany with a love of germans Chris Rea. When I was in the Netherlands a few years ago i was told to be sure not to leave my car with german license plates out on the street overnight as it was sure to be damaged by morning. It was explained that is was a sign of the deep affection the dutch have for the germans. I've gotten similar advice in France and England.

@ ryhntyntyn

A. Aside from the goodwill and sincere gratitude towards all americans for past services the europeans owe americans ongoing public thanks, recognition and support for policing a world in which europeans continue to prosper. Its not just soldiers that sacrifice in time of war, grieving families and a stressed, angst ridden general public are also combatants and victims and occasional casualties. So lets not limit your obligation to kiss my feet the first time we meet. It will be a lesson in humility for you and a satisfying moment for me.

B. The damming of communist expansionism in asia with the vietnam war was certainly a benefit to the world, europe included.

C. With the white settler (mostly european) triumph in the indian wars the future of an eventual free and democratic europe was safeguarded.

D. The wild west analogy is merely Nazi propaganda used to excuse their own behavior. That you regurgitate it here is to your shame. There is no analogy, no matter how hard and to what lengths you and the nazis keep trying to draw a parallel.

The US public has not always faced its responsibilities as bravely as the greatest generation did. But snipping from the sidelines is a cowardly way for you to behave, especially as you owe America so much.
17:06 July 20, 2011 by Sastry.M

Thank you for reply. I once again acknowledge your interest in and possession of vast historical knowledge. I fully agree with you that the Bengal sepoy rebellion caused death of many innocent women and children which was unfortunate and unwarranted.

In my view any rebellion is a violent physical response to an innate indignation,pent up feelings and general resentment of effected limited communities or people at large when it becomes a revolution. If we closely observe the mechanism of motivating cause in general we realize anger is permeating minds on average of activists along deeper emotions in leaders. An excellent elucidation of anger coupled with emotion is given in the Bhagawad Gita. A person in such a charged up state becomes oblivious to oneself shutting up all paths of suggestive receptivity and becomes vehement in action with resonant emotion. Thus a subtle emotional psychic cause prompts to unwarranted physical destruction. Gita says that even a revered Guru will also be abused ( Sans.--Gurumapi Dhikkarothi).

The Indian spirituality fits in nicely even with scientific explanation. Resonant vibrations developed in a bridge due to marching army in step over it can destroy the structure and hence ordered to disperse freely. The net physical effect of resonance goes to show a peaked action of a short duration. Coupling the physical with the above psychic explanation we arrive at a generalized human model of modern emotional activities both by terrorists as well as liberators fighting against to restore order noting that Gita was taught by Krishna to a befuddled warrior prince Arjuna at Ca.3100 B.C.

To conclude I once again refer to your perfect observation that there is no honor in claiming rebellion as a war of independence which is why Gandhi resorted to non violence as the best means but the Spirit of West always considered it as impotent and presently hoping for some fruitful results in the middle east.
17:40 July 20, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Sastry. M #147. Thank you again. For as little as what I think is worth, I believe Gandhi was right in these things, especially for the oppressed.

Lunchbreak #146. One step forward two steps back.

A. You do not know my nationality, suffice it to say that I have no obligation to you. Kiss your feet? You spelled the verb wrong. It's not kiss, it should read kick, and it the object should not be your feet. Better for you that we don't meet. That aside, have the Europeans asked the Americans to police the world? Did anyone else appoint America as the worlds policeman or guardian?

B. I did not realize that America had won Vietnam. Last I heard, South Vietnam fell, was still communist and Saigon was a memory. Do tell.

C. Interesting. How so?

D. Again the comparison is pretty valid. Do away with the people next to you so you can expand. Outgun them, make treaties with them and then attack them again. Put them in enclosures where they cannot prosper and watch them dwindle. Am I talking about the slavs or the Native Americans? It's sadly and for Americans I am sure embarrassingly accurate.

The Nazis should not have killed their neighbors to the east. I would also put forth that the US should not have killed their neighbors to the west. Except the difference is that the US got away with it.

Again, I am not aware that you know my nationality enough to declare that I owe anyone, anything.
18:10 July 20, 2011 by harcourt
You're all a load of loonies !! I hope to God you realise it.
18:16 July 20, 2011 by ChrisRea
@ lunchbreak,

Apparently you do not care to focus too much when you read the posts. The poll I mentioned had questions about how much would one like (have positive feelings towards) different countries. It has nothing to do with economic success. The conclusion, which might be shocking to you, is that Germany is seen as the nicest country by the ones surveyed.

As much as I heard, the vandals in the Netherlands, France and UK "take care" of all cars registered abroad, even if they come from Belgium, Italy or Greece (apparently they do not discriminate among foreigners). But I am sure this applies only to certain neighbourhoods (I had no problem when parking in the Netherlands or France). I am also sure that such nationalistic vandals can be found in all countries (including Germany and US). But if you have some real information (not anecdotal evidence) that the issue is more significant in one country/with respect to a certain nationality, please bring it up.
18:26 July 20, 2011 by Klaipeda
@ryhntyntyn #121 and #127

RT is the acronym for Russia Today. Russia Today is the state owned broadcaster of Russia. According to your statement Russia, the country that by far lost more people than any other country in the world fighting Germany in WW II is promoting pro-NAZI propaganda. Is Israel also promoting pro-NAZI propaganda?

RT (Russia Today) is the Russian 24 hour state run Russian broadcaster and I receive it where I live. Hitler certainly wasn't innocent. But neither were Stalin, Churchill or FDR. Nobody was. History is never that simple.
19:45 July 20, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

Nope, kiss is the proper word. And still no points for trying to compare the indian wars with the murder of 6 million jews gypsies, slavs, homosexuals and other assorted Untermenschen. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

@ ChrisRea

I'm sorry to intrude on your fantasy but it was only the german cars that were targeted. Apparently any warm feelings on the part of the locals towards the germans were extinguished by hatred for the master race and the way it behaved when it had the upper hand in the countries it overran. Funny they still remember that after all these years. One would think the Dutch would let beygones be bygones. Same for the French and the British. Between you and me I think the germans behave very badly when they think they can get away with it.
23:28 July 20, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Harcourt # 149. I suspect thou doth protest too much.

Klaipeda #151. The Russian news agencies are not reliable. The request for wool for uniforms in the middle of the winter war with the Finns is not fuel for a conspiracy, and certainty not any kind of evidence that Stalin planned an invasion of Germany. Propaganda? Who cares? Speculative B.S? Absolutely. When I see a news source with Cyrillc letters in the header. I run. I suggest you do the same.

Lunchbreak #152. Maybe you missed the issues. I'll recap and see if you are brave enough to try and answer. And if anyone else want's to jump in an answer for Lunchbreak, since he can't answer for himself it seems, feel free.

1. Have the Europeans asked the Americans to police the world on their behalf? Did anyone else appoint America as the world's policeman or guardian? Is it a job the people of the US actually want?

2. How did losing the Vietnam war stop communism in Vietnam and the rest of Asia to the benefit of Europe?

3. How did pushing the native Americans to the brink of extinction secure the future of the west?

4. Your pick, am I talking about the Slavs or the Native Americans?

a. Do away with the people next to you so you can expand.

b. Outgun them, make treaties with them and then attack them again.

c. Put them in enclosures where they cannot prosper and watch them dwindle.

One or the other or both or neither. But please. Enlighten us all.

Why are you so scared to admit that your people, of whom you seem so proud, in this instance of US history, were in the wrong? Why can't you look at the US and love her in spite of her faults and mistakes rather than denying them? And while you are asking yourself that, ask yourself, as the inheritor of country whose economic foundation was slavery, and the whose very land you admit was taken from another people by force, what right you have to rub the Germans' nose in their own history, when you obviously do not have the strength of character to face up to your own country's misdeeds? That is hypocrisy. Ask yourself why you can't just admit that it was wrong? And then you'll understand why it's so difficult for the locals to deal with their own history. Frankly I think they do a better job than you in this instance. Except Klaipeda, who apparently hates everyone.

And for the record. It was 6.2 million jews and about 6 million other people who died in the camps. The total is 12 million.
02:55 July 21, 2011 by Amini

What good comes from all this wanting respect from old Europe? America is great country and doesn't need any country to give her respect. US did a lot of post-war activities for its own interest, which ended up benefiting Europe. I do agree with ryhntyntyn on this issue that nobody asked America to do those stuff (although I beg to differ with him/her on comparing the killing of Jews with other genocides in history).

Hypothetically, say all Europeans acknowledge what America did for them after the war. So what? Is that gonna help our debt issue? Will this decrease unemployment? Is that gonna give us more confidence? Or is it merely a projection of an inferiority complex?

You can find good and bad people all over the world. But generalizations are the greatest danger. The same thing the NAZIs did. I think it's better to see what can we learn from the Germans. They are hard working and precise people. Why can't we learn those good attitudes from them? They also did horrible stuff and I do believe they have to compensate for it (disagreeing with ryhntyntyn again).


I suggest you study the historikerstreit of the 80s. A series of highly thought essays and discussions between Jürgen Habermass and Ernst Nolte; two prominent philosophers of our time, about the differences between the Holocaust and all other genocides.

The thing about the Holocaust is not about the math. It's about the quality and methods of these killings. It's about the ideology behind it. It's more of a philosophical debate rather than a statistical one. This is well-shown in the later works of Adorno. It's really unthoughtful of you to compare only the NUMBERS of the Indian killings and of the Jews (although both genocides and unjustifiable).

I do agree that the Germans of WW2 killed those 12 million people and not the people living today in Germany. But whatever happened to historical responsibility of a nation? I mean if you say our fathers did X and not us, ergo you will have to admit that we have to hold elections every 4 years for the constitution, because our fathers wrote that and not us. The concept of heritance is the string connecting us with the past. Our father did fight against the NAZIs not us, but they fought those wars with the tax that could have been a part of my inheritance. So I can take pride with what they did. And Germans should carry the guilt and responsibly of the killings of their fathers. By the way, Germany is the only country were neo nazis have a parade every year. You can see the HH or their 88 sign in most soccer matches. History isn't a progressive force towards goodness. Nations can default and so can Germans. remembering these genocides, ensures those horrors won't happen.

All the best!
04:11 July 21, 2011 by ChrisRea

Apparently you are not only one wrongly considering that Dutch vandals are only after German cars. Quote from Observant Online: " There are no exact figures, but Kotz heard from someone who works at Carglass that 80 percent of all broken windshields in Maastricht belonged to Germans. The manager of the same shop, Chris Nivel, puts matters into perspective. ¦quot;We do not make a note of nationalities in our administration, but it is definitely not 80 percent. Besides it is not just the Germans, this also happens to the French and Belgians. Thieves target tourists and day-trippers because they think that they leave valuable items in their cars.¦quot; The police confirms this. Not just Germans, but foreigners in general are often targets, says Maastricht spokesperson Chris Timmermans."

Anyway, it seems that you lack real information and have only anecdotal evidence, so I see no reason to continue discussing this.

@ Amini,

I admire your efforts in having a balanced view and I think this is the way to go.

One correction however - Germany is not the only country where Neo Nazis have a yearly parade. There is at least one annual Neo Nazi parade in Canada. My guess is that there are regular parades in most countries with a significant Neo Nazi community.

Also one comment - in most countries, the constitution is amended as often as it is considered necessary. It does not matter that it was written by our fathers (and mothers). Germany got a new constitution as soon as the Nazis were gone. Germany banned also Nazi symbols (in other countries, including US, they are legal).

Anyway, it is more than one generation since the Nazi era. So we are not talking about parents anymore, but about grandparents or grand-grandparents. If there was to be a responsibility, it is outdated since quite a while.
05:10 July 21, 2011 by Amini
@ ChrisRea

Thank you for your comment.

My point on pointing out the constitution and the concept of heritance is to say that the prides and prejudices of our ancestors come along with us. Although we are different from our parents, but there is no guarantee for us not to repeat their mistakes. That's the point about the amendments added to a constitution you mentioned earlier on. They are added to the constitution but they don't over shadow it.

And that credibility is an important factor in judgment. Although the Germans today are different from their grand parents, but this does not mean they won't nor can't repeat those crimes. It is in their history (not their blood!), you have to get over it but also remember it. I emphasize again: history is not a progressive force towards goodness; decline and default can happen.

My thoughts on these issues are highly influenced by Adorno and Habermas. If you want a more precise and detailed account on that, you will have to read their articles. I simply can't address them in full detail in these comments.

P.S. about the NAZI symbols in the US, I should say that's the first Amendment. One of the wonders and beauties of the American soul. You can see one of its triumphs in the supreme court case of 'The National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie'. By the way, why are there symbols banned in Germany? Are they scarred they might gain popularity? Why won't the Bavarian state release the copyright of Mein Kampf?

I firmly believe in the First Amendment. Neo NAZIS should be allowed to express their views. They do that in America and they haven't gained any popularity and the Americans haven't killed any Jews.

P.P.S. I'm Canadian and don't remember such a parade in Canada. There was a neo nazi parade in 1973 though. But the Canadian government followed the lead of other countries to ban them. Poor judgment on their behalf, because it resulted in the uprising of the Parti Québécois which lead to their absurd claim of separating Quebec from Canada. And they succeeded to hold an election every twenty year to put this cause to referendum. It's their right, but such a waist of taxpayer money.

All the Best!
10:05 July 21, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Amini #154 & 156. Thanks very much for posting. There are some miscommunications we have to clear up.

I compared the Holocaust (this includes the Jews and everyone else, as they were not the only victims of the gas chambers) directly to the Rwandan genocide, by the numbers, not the Indian Wars. See post #50. The reason being was to show that the claim that "only the Germans could have done it" because of their efficiency made in post #44 and #43, was incorrect. Genocide can happen anywhere, it is something that needs to be guarded against. To tag it on the Nazis as something only they could have done, and then sleep soundly while it happens over and over again, must be avoided. I think we would actually agree on this. It does not follow that pointing that out excuses the Holocaust. On the contrary. Two wrongs do not make a right. Neither do three or four.

My comparison was quite thoughful, it seems you didn't read the entire thread. I did not in fact compare the Indian Wars with the Holocaust. I compared them with the Drang nach Osten. Which is applicable. Please see #127, #129, #143, #149 and subsequent. Although the Jews were obviously substanitally affected, Hitlers plan for eastern manifiest destiny would have impacted tens of millions of Slavs. And the Indian wars and the Drang nach Osten (which predates the Nazis and is modelled on Manifest Destiny) are not only comparable they are sadly too similar to be ignored. So again, you have misquoted both and neither would awake poor Jurgen and set him spinning in his grave.

Additionally I have not said in any of these threads that Germany is not reponsible or does not owe compensation. I have said that they are dealing with their Vergangenheitsbewältigung rather better than Japan or the CIS. See post #101. I do believe the Germans have a responsibility to themselves and humanity. I simply believe that for now they are living up to those responsibilites.

Germany is not the only only country with NeoNazis who go parading. It happens in the US all the time. Wearing 88 at a soccer match is not a parade btw. It's one jerk at a soccer match.

In addition the reason (according to the German High Court) the Germans ban the Nazi symbols is because the Nazi party's foundation was the elimination by murder of Germany jewry, German Sinti and Roma and a host of others. And those peoples' right to sleep in their beds without being worried that they will be gassed trumps the right of a NeoNazi to display symbols that are that contextually loaded with murder.

You can of course be proud of ancestors who liberated Europe. That doesn't mean Europe owes you anything.

Lastly, and in this both I and Germany former chief rabbi Spiegel disagree with you. People whose heritige is marked like the Germans or the US but haven't committed a crime should not feel guilty. They should feel responsible. Huge difference.
15:19 July 21, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ChrisRea

Don' believe everything you read. The dutch police may feel they have a duty to be politically correct but I've lived in Holland so I know the situation intimately. There is no love lost on the germans and cars with german plates left on the street over night regularly take a beating in a way that other foreign vehicles do not.

@ Amini

I'm afraid you won't have much luck trying to get ryhntyntyn to say thank you. As we've all gleaned from his tedious posts he is incapable of gratitude on behalf of himself or his country. Pay no attention to the smokescreen. Europe continues to owe Canada & the US big time as we both know.
17:31 July 21, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #158 Tenciousness is a virtue but only when it's backed by being right. That's a shame in your case. I'll go with a window repair service and the Dutch police over your limited experience and exceedingly narrow minded viewpoint. No matter whether it's me or ChrisRea, you seem to have some sort of aversion to facts. Which is sad.

And I won't say thank you to you, because I don't owe you. And I can't thank you on behalf of Europe because I do not represent them. Plus their Representatives already thanked the US all through the late 40's and 50's and 60's. There are dedications all over Europe. There is a big plaque on the wall in Cathedral in Strassburg, it says thanks. There is a carving on the inside of the Rathaus in Munich, it says thanks. There isn't anything on there about the liberators' spoiled and petty grandchildren though.
18:03 July 21, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

Well, a bit of progress anyway, but not without a struggle. I knew you could do it which was why I took some trouble with you. Your last post must have been exhausting but congratulations are due.

As far as any spoiled and petty children and/or grandchildren they're a very small price to pay for the freedoms you continue to enjoy. Somehow I think you'll bear up. :-)
19:13 July 21, 2011 by Klaipeda
@ ryhntyntyn

I find the Russia Today to be much more reliable than the western media on certain subjects. One of them being the west's constant killing of Arabs when it, particularly the USA, attacks countries and murders their people for no reason at all.

You called the RT report propaganda, not me. My point was if its propaganda, its anti-Russian propaganda, which would make no sense at all because RT is Russian state funded television.

I have always found western media suspicious and distasteful in many regards and many British people and some Americans have now come to the same realization with Rupert Murdoch and his world empire of fraud and deceit. Murdoch owns much of the most powerful media organizations in Great Britain and the USA.

This is an interesting article on Murdoch. It explains a lot. It explians how public opinion is formed and how propaganda and lies are spread.

19:44 July 21, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #160. It wasn't me who said thank you. It was the citizens of Strasbourg and the citizens of Munich in this case. But, and I hate to disappoint you, I am not from a country that was liberated by the US or any of the rest of the allies in WWII.

This is, and eventually it will get through to you, not about my level of gratitude for the war or liberation. It's actually my detached opinion that Europe doesn't owe the US the kind of gratitude that you think they owe the US for the things you think they owe the US. You can be taught, I am sure of it.

The spoiled children of the liberators have made a lot mistakes over the last 60 years since that war. I wonder how much more until they, like most spoiled children ruin themselves?

Klaipeda #161 I don't trust the western media either. But I trust the Russians even less. I think the article you quoted was an exercise in absolute stupidity. Not on your part, but on the part of whoever wrote it.
20:28 July 21, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

So now you take it all back. It wasn't you who said thank you, what a pity.

Whether you know it or not and whether you live in europe or not the legacy of democracy the US fosters around the world affects you. It seems you're just too silly to see it or admit it. But thats your problem, most of us know better.
20:44 July 21, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #163. Why would I claim the Thanks carved into the Neues Rathaus wall in Munich, when I am neither German, nor was I here in 1945 when Munich was liberated, or in 1992 when the inscription was made and dedicated.

I cannot thank you on behalf of the Europeans. I do not speak for them. Explain to them what they "owe" you and see how much thanks you get.

I will not thank you personally because I owe you nothing. For the constitution, I would thank Franklin, Jefferson and Hamilton and the rest if I meet them on the other side of the wall. For Democracy I will thank the ancient Greeks should they be there as well. .

But the US of today has loads of issues in its own backyard that need fixing. The last thing they need is to seek the adulation of the Europeans. And they certainly shouldn't be bragging about their shining success when the house is falling down around their ears.
21:01 July 21, 2011 by lunchbreak
No one is looking for adulation ryhntyntyn, just a plain unqualified thanks for all you've done for us and its nice to you're there for us even now is sufficient. You're one of the relatively few holdouts I'm happy to say.

The US house isn't falling down just yet but europeans are having a very tough time at the moment.
21:18 July 21, 2011 by Amini

thanks for your comment.

I stated in my first comment that I agree with you that the killings of Indians and Rwanda etc. are genocide and unjustifiable and ignoring them is as much of a crime as committing them. Although there is a fundamental difference between those genocides and the Holocaust. I refer you to the Historikerstreit, which exactly deals with this problem in a philosophical manner. I cannot address those issues in these comments because of their technical nature.

I specifically said my problem is with comparing the Holocaust with other genocides and trying to numerate it. (I also didn't say that only the Germans can do such a thing, I explicitly said bad people are all over the world). Again I refer you to the Historikerstreit which exactly deals with these topics.

I also agreed with you that Europe doesn't owe ME anything. Why do you keep on bringing that topic with me? I explicitly said this this not an important topic for me. Whether the Europeans acknowledge what America did for them or not, I will not feel better or worse. I simply don't care. America is a great country and Europeans admitting their debt or not doesn't make her better or worse. This goes both ways: the French did help the Americans gaining Independence from Britain. Shouldn't Americans be thankful for their help?

I agree with you that Germans today shouldn't feel guilty for their fathers actions. But responsible. I specifically added the concept of Historical Responsibility, which you also agreed by saying " ...Germans have a responsibility to themselves and HUMANITY". So if they are responsible for the crimes of their fathers, why can't someone be responsible for the prides and good doings of their father? That does not mean anybody owing anything to anybody, neither it implies it.

P.S. Jurgen Habermas is still alive and I hope lives a long life. Why did you send the poor guy to his grave?
05:02 July 22, 2011 by SayNoToUS
My ancestors lost their Germanity (forever) during Wilson War I, or they might have suffered the same fate as Robert Prager in Collinsville, Illinois (lynched in 1918).

They stopped speaking German in public, in church, and eventually at home. Those who did so were considered "subversives", even terrorists. German-language newspapers in St. Louis, Milwaukee, and Cincinnati were investigated and harassed by a new agency called the Bureau of Investigation. Lutheran ministers were encouraged to stop preaching in German.

At least my ancestors were not sent to concentration camps like Japanese-Americans were in Wilson War II. Is this not one of the the most hypocritical embarrassments for the "land of the free"?

Yes, we have been thoroughly assimilated here, all 25% of our population with German-American heritage going back to the 17th century, stretching from Pennsylvania to California.

My ancestors joined the ranks of the Union Army in 1861. My Father was drafted into the US Army at age 30 for WWII, my uncles served also. Despite all of the contributions Americans of German heritage have made to the USA, there is no commemoration of such. No "German-American History" month on the History Channel, etc.

If I ever have the great good fortune to visit Europe, and the home of my ancestors, I will be nothing more than a tourist, Ein Auslaender, another ugly Ami.
11:58 July 22, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #165. Wake up. The US needs an enema. Ask a European for thanks. I owe you nothing. In my opinion they also owe you nothing. But it's up to them.

Amini #166. Let's explain the Historikerstreit for everyone. If we can't explain it simply, then we don't know it well enough. ;)

Habermas said that for the good of Germany, there should be no Schadensabwicklungen that might trivialize the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the worst of genocides and is uniquely German and as such is not comparable.

But, deciding that the Holocaust was the worst genocide is already a comparison… So much for Habermas.

There is no doubt that comparisons of the Holocaust could be dangerous if used to trivialize. All ideas are dangerous. A kitchen knife is dangerous, you could use it to peel a potato, or stab your neighbour. Comparisons are just tools, the value of which depends on whether one is trying to cover the truth up, or drag it out into the light.

The Historikerstreit is between the German left and the right. My argument is a third perspective. Saying that the Holocaust is uniquely German is just as dangerous as covering it up. It could happen again, it has happened again, and the world was caught with their pants down, again.

On France: I am very thankful to the French sovereign for his assistance to the colonies. Exceedingly so in fact.

On Responsibility: We all have a responsibility to humanity. The knowledge that comes with a marked identity raises the standard for expected compliance but not the expected product. This is what the Germans have inherited. They have an historical responsibility because we know that they know. Not the same as their directly guilty grandparents, not the same as the liberators who actually risked something for someone else.

On Gratitude: You have jumped in between Lunchbreak and myself. As I have said before, be proud of your ancestors if you like. But the actual tangible gratitude beyond goodwill (i.e. political cooperation) belonged to them, not to Lunchbreak or other heirs. The America of the mid and late 20th century could expect certain concessions from Europe because of the accounts founded in the blood on the beaches of France. The mistakes of the 20th century and beyond and time itself have depleted those accounts. It is now the 21st century, each generation must open their own account.

You have said that the Americans don't need European gratitude. I would agree with you completely. America is a great nation, and does not need Europe to bend the knee to reinforce that.

If he's not in the grave then he can't spin, can he?. I will be quite honest. I mixed Habermas up with Adorno and thought that the latter was still alive. Shame for Adorno. Good for Habermas though.

SayNoToUS #167. Heul doch.
15:39 July 22, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ SayNoToUS

Ugly Ami? That's your problem. May the same problem ryhntyntyn has. The folks in this german city like americans and tell me so. You miscreants were a bit funny to start with but now you're just boring.
19:19 July 22, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #169. Then go away. And good riddance to bad rubbish.
19:54 July 22, 2011 by lunchbreak
I'm afraid all the bad rubbish is on your end ryhntyntyn.
21:04 July 22, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Nonsense. Things are pretty brilliant right now actually. I'm sorry you're so busted up over this. But I think it's mostly your fault for being so completely immune to reason.
02:05 July 23, 2011 by SayNoToUS
@lunchbreak (#169)

I am gratified to hear that folks in your German city like Americans. Would you welcome me if ever I visited there?

Please do not call me a miscreant. What did I say to deserve that? I do readily admit however that I am boring. I know way too much world history to suit most of my countrymen, who spend most of their time plugged into IPods, texting, and watching television, as they weave their cars in and out of traffic, all at the same time. That is multi-tasking for you.

I want you to know that I am very proud of my ancestry. It is not easy to do so, considering the depraved, Nordic-hating culture that I live in here. The point I wanted to make above (#167)is that the media here glorifies certain cultures, while villifying or ignoring the accomplishments of generations of hard-working Euro-Americans who originated in central Europe.

I am curious to know, what do the people in your city like about Americans? I have the impression that most of Europe considers the USA to be the "New Romans". I do not resent the implication, nor do I consider it an honor, I simply understand the sentiment.

I think Germany is a fine country. I hope I have the honor to visit there some day. The reasons that caused my ancestors to leave the Kurpfalz 165 years ago are no longer valid. I would like to have the chance to "come home" sometime, even if just for a visit. I feel compelled to learn German however, as I do not want to but just another American tourist.

I wish all the best for your fine country, and Die Schweiz, and France, as I have roots in all of them.


An ordinary boring miscreant
03:09 July 23, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

Unfortunately for you in spite of all your obfuscation the reason is all on my side. I think thats why you're so obviously bent out of shape about it.

@ SaynotoUS

Glad you asked. They like americans because, so they tell me, they are outgoing, generous, relaxed and interesting to talk to. I think they are too. ;-)
13:30 July 23, 2011 by Sastry.M
Events that befell Germany from 1914 to 1945 is a history of portrayed Facts but not entirely purporting to innate Truth.

Rational judgement and logical reasoning demands that the Germans too are born on par other Europeans but with no real colonial expansionist ambitions even as possessed by Holland and Belgium and certainly not in the U.S. Much before the abuse of recent Holocaust hurled against them they created and suffered one themselves during the 30 yrs.war following Christian Reformation but never inflicted on others in Crusade. Their fertile productive nature was exploited by colonial powers in constructional activities taming vast expanses in the U.S. How then such genuinely applicative people could become hateful, racialist and expansionist? How the Nazis could muster such highest efficiency from half starved people fighting war on all fronts in carrying out multi million genocide using the most lethal and explosive gas in huge concentration camps with calm and composed one pointed conviction even with dwindling economy barely sustain the major war effort and diminishing fortunes? Condemning the main and smaller Axis allied nations commonly for war crimes the Tribunals at Nuremberg seeking justice and conviction against crimes the courts were restricted to major allied powers for authoritative judging while an international participation should have been constituted to try such huge magnitude of crimes against humanity in general and European Jews in particular while the victory was hailed to all common participation. What prompted such discrimination?

Coming to recovery salvaging the debris left in all directly warring countries and added with destitution and misery left to Germans both with loss in all human angles and an indelible blot of heinous crimes as a common guilt stamped on their faces what factors resurrected them to a faster recovery and enabled pay monetary compensation to the most effected people?

Why did the Christian Faith for which the Germans fought among and decimated themselves during 30y war could not forgive them even more than 60y after alleged crimes?

Money perpetuates only misery with compensation because its values are attributed by human mind but forgiveness heals permanently because it floods both hate and sin simultaneously with divine grace of love.
14:06 July 23, 2011 by lunchbreak
In the winter of 1944-1945 Charles De Gaulle visited Stalingrad, the site of the furthest advance of the german army into Russia. Amid the ruins of the city the general is said to have muttered to an aide - Quel peuple!. When the aide inquired whether he meant the Russians De Gaulle replied - No, the germans.

He was speaking of a people who, between 1870 and 1939 had three times attacked his country and whose power had corrupted and nearly destroyed historic europe and who were guilty of a genocidal crime unique in the continents history. Now germany rises once again and once again it remains to be seen how it will turn out.
23:54 July 23, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #174. The good thing about The Local's interface, is that you can't edit or delete your own posts. Go back and check the thread. Actually, look up obfuscate, then go back and check the thread. There's not one question or point that we have gone over that anyone else has failed to address. Except you; when something doesn't match up to your worldview, you just decline to answer or switch the subject.

Maybe you should consider a career in politics?

Sastry. M. #175. Yes. It is a shame. The horror of the war and all the hurt connected with it will echo through history, unless we all make amends. The cycle of blame and violent reprisal has to be stopped consciously, both in the mind the heart and the hand. Thank you for posting.

Lunchbreak #176. He actually just flat out said "Un grand peuple les Allemands." Genius remark actually. Covers the fact that Germans simultaneously were responsible for creating and destroying historical Europe. You could learn a lot from de Gaulle.

Prussia doesn't exist anymore, neither do the conditions that made it so warlike and defensive in the first place. Le Allemand? Sans Prusse, sans le esprit de Guerre.

Of course it remains to be seen how it will turn out. It's a democracy. The same goes for the US and every other country on the planet. In the 10th year of secondary school we had to read De Tocqueville's Democracy in America. One thing that has stuck with me from that reading all these years, that I found quite shocking at the time, was that America was (and still is) an experiment in Democracy. I thought for sure that it was a foregone conclusion that the US could not and would not ever fail at anything. So much for the glassy eyed naivete of youth.

Any democracy is only as strong as the people and the institutions they build. No country gets a buy. I agree that the Germans are a country to keep an eye on. But for the Europeans (and everyone else) keeping an eye on the US and the CIS would be a very pragmatic idea as well. One couldn't blame them if they held that attitude.
11:38 July 24, 2011 by ECSNatale
Wow... I think I gained about 20 new gray hairs on my head reading all of that.

Simply put, I am happy to be an American living in Germany... assimilated, tax paying, and actively engaged in forming the world in which I live.
01:41 July 25, 2011 by lunchbreak
Don't mind ryhntyntyn ECSNatale, he's just some troll with a lot of excess verbiage - he likes to hear himself talk. Its great fun winding him up.

Its nice that you're an american here in Germany. From what can see around here most folks admire americans and are grateful for their country's contributions both during the war and since.

@ ryhntyntyn

Thanks for your adjusted quote but I'll go with Fritz Stern, the internationally acclaimed historian, in his book The Five Germanys who quotes De Gaulle as I mentioned above. And I wouldn't bring up the subject of world views, ryhntyntyn, its a concept in which you are clearly deficient.
11:00 July 25, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #179. Sadly, you prove by example that that all is not right in the land of the free and the brave. Because although you are a product of that land you are neither free nor intellectually brave. The record of this conversation shows it.

Prof Stern does paraphrase what he considers that de Gaulle reportedly said. "Legend, with a proper touch of verisimilitude, has it that amid the ruins of Stalingrad he muttered to an aide, "Quel peuple!" The translator inquired, "You mean the Russians?" "No," said de Gaulle, "the Germans."

The book itself though is quite good. I suggest you actually read it.

In Histoire de l¦#39;Allemagne: Des origines a nos jours Joeseph Rovan quotes de Gaulle as having said "Quel grand peuple ! Dire qu¦#39;ils sont venus jusqu¦#39;ici." Rovan recieved from the Republic for his work in the Resistance the Croix de Guerre and the Medaille de la Resistance. He was a life-long follower of de Gaulle, and a close friend and advisor to same. He was in fact, also Professor of German Civilisation at the University of Paris-Vincennes and held a chair at the Sorbonne. I think we could say without actually disrespecting Professor Stern, that Stern was paraphrasing a legend, while Rovan was quoting a friend.

None of which changes that fact that if the depth and strength of your arguments were population density, they would be Montana. Un grand peuple et une grande nation like America deserve a better champion and spokesperson than yourself.
12:38 July 25, 2011 by lunchbreak
@ ryhntyntyn

I 've read 5 Germanys I Have Known which is where I remembered the quote from - I recommend it to you although I have doubts you'd profit from it.

As you haven't noticed America doesn't need my recommendation.Its beneficial influence is quite beyond my recommendation. Good luck trying to persuade us otherwise.
14:11 July 25, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #181. You mean from where you remembered the paraphrasing? Because only the Rovan reference is an actual quote form de Gaulle. And, I frankly don't believe you. If you had then you wouldn't hold Prof. Stern in such high regard, as he disagrees with you on almost every point, especially in terms of how the Germans should deal with the US today.

"Germany has to consider its European links and, increasingly, its links to Russia and Asia. The prerequisite to better relations would have to be the de facto abandonment of American unilateralism" - Fritz Stern, On the Transatlantic Relationship, 2007.

I think it ironic the way you bandy about the idea of an "us." I have yet to see anyone in this discussion agree with you. And I certainly don't. So that leaves you with just you. I do not think that any of the American readership of the Local, whether here in Germany or abroad would be so belligerent and display such a lack of grace as to outright demand European gratitude, or so insipidly stupid to demand it from a Texan...

Your arguments represent in fact, the epitome of everything that is wrong with United States, and have so far failed to represent any of the myriad of things that are right with that great country, may God bless her till the end of days, because with self appointent spokespersons like yourself, she will in fact need all the help she can get.
14:42 July 25, 2011 by lunchbreak
its clear that the only place you've read Dr. Stern's book is in wikipedia ryhntyntyn . Yes, the US is a great country and you might begin to redeem yourself here if you would start showing the respect that is due america. But of course that is far beyond your meager capabilities. If you can't be of help, then get out of the way.
14:50 July 25, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #183. You will find me and any thinking person in your way for the rest of your life. Get used to it.

The record of this conversation is clear. Your arguments, propelled by your intellect and character, are sadly lacking.

America doesn't need dumb. She tried that already. You are doing your country a disservice.
15:37 July 25, 2011 by lunchbreak
Tell us all again how flawed the US and how europe doesn't owe it any thanks.
17:20 July 25, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #185.

The US, like any other country, has plenty of flaws. Do you deny that? Or are you still asserting I don't have the right to point them out? The only way to go is through them. You are just scared.

I have told you before (it's in the record above) that Europe thanked the US for their part of the liberation, and even the cold war with plaques, speeches and the other typical tokens of such thanks. And that that account of thanks will and at least partially has been, used up and spent. If you were brave enough to fill it yourself, rather than relying on an inheritance to which you have no right, thn we wouldn't be having this conversation.
17:48 July 25, 2011 by lunchbreak
So tell us again which flaws the US has exactly. Here, I'll give you some help to start: George Bush, Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. etc. Come on, you know the drill...
08:37 July 26, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Those things you listed are mistakes. Except for Bush. He was the President. He might have represented someone else's voting mistakes. But that is neither here nor there.

Do you want internal or external flaws? I'll start with one of each.

Internally, the US legislative system is corrupt and too easily bought off.

Externally, the US is so dependent on foreign oil, that it has had to go to war at least twice, if not more in the last 2 decades when the flow of petroleum was threatened.

But this is a new can of worms, and we aren't going to discuss it here. You might, but I won't comment on this further. No country is perfect, we both know that.

In the future, when discussing Germany's need to fess up for the past, make sue you have your own skeletons covered. Otherwise you will be outflanked, repeatedly. It's what I told you before and that is still borne out.
12:49 July 26, 2011 by lunchbreak
Those aren't mistakes, its part of the reason you're so confused, they're part of america's proud history and ongoing struggle.

The US legislative system is corrupt?? Compared to Russian or China for instance? And if you would like to do without oil I would suggest a long vacation on a remote tropical island.

In the future, when discussing Germany's need to admit responsibility for the past we'll start by listing the 60 million people killed in WWII.

Outflanked? In your dreams. You haven't even gotten out of the barracks. But keep trying.
14:02 July 26, 2011 by ryhntyntyn
Lunchbreak #189. Yes, the US legislative system is corrupt when compared with itself and how it is supposed to run. You are making excuses for corruption in the US by invoking Russia or China. Telling. Two or any other innummerable amount of wrongs don't make a right.

Normally, I only go for the arguments. But you really are a fool. That doesn't make your arguments more foolish though, because that is not possible.

C- is ok at Harvard or Yale. Not in the Whitehouse. A mistake.

Vietnam. 50,000 dead US servicemen. 1 communist victory in 1975. Definitely a mistake.

The first Iraq war occured because the US envoy neglected to tell Saddam no at a cocktail party. Mistake.

The second one was plainly a mistake in terms of what was gained for money spent, influence and credibility lost, Mistake.

And a further mistake for resources it drew away from trying to fix the mistake which actually occured before the first two: The arming and support of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. The US should have let the Russians have them. Now the US is fighting a war to try and root them out. Sounds like a mistake to me.

Those were all mistakes. If you want to show how they were not then feel free to explain. I doubt you can or will. After your arguments in this thread, I actually doubt that you could pour a saltwater and uric acid solution out of a boot.

The arguments that you make are almost Nazi like in their vehemence and inability to see or deal with your own country's faults. You sound like some sort of American Supremacist. It really is nauseating. And like alot of folks on here, I think America is grand.

Just let it lie or you will continue to embarrass yourself.
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