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US chopper flights whip Bavarians into fury

The Local · 31 May 2011, 17:38

Published: 31 May 2011 17:38 GMT+02:00

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More than 500 complaints have been received by the city of Ansbach in Middle Franconia already this year – more than ever before – about the helicopter noise, which routinely goes until midnight, daily Süddeutsche Zeitung reported.

Katterbach houses the 12th Combat Aviation Brigade, which consists of 3,100 military personnel and more than 100 Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters.

When the Katterbach base was established in the 1970s, the commander supposedly made a “gentleman’s agreement” with the then mayor of Ansbach: the helicopters would fly as little as possible over populated areas and never at night.

But after a while, the Americans began to ignore the agreement, residents told Süddeutsche Zeitung. The city has pleaded with the Americans.

“And absolutely nothing has happened,” Mayor Carda Seidel told the paper.

The last meeting of the “Noise Commission,” a body made up of representatives of the US Army and the mayors of local towns and villages, ended without any concrete decisions. Letters have gone unanswered and protests ignored. The base’s commander did not respond to inquiries from Süddeutsche Zeitung.

The municipal officials are somewhat torn because they also depend economically on the base.

“For our mutual benefit, it is important that we take the Americans into account,” said Seidel, before adding, “At the moment they are not doing that for us.”

Meanwhile, an American community near the B14 road through Middle Franconia has attracted the anger of locals after the Americans built a large housing estate including a hotel and shopping centre on top of a bird and frog habitat. Barbed wire has been erected without permission.

Residents complain about the “occupiers” with “Rambo attitudes,” according to Süddeutsche Zeitung. Letters to the local newspaper demand “Army go home.”

Dieter Hiemer, 45, who has lived in the Obereichenbach area for 20 years, complained he was suffering sleep loss because of the helicopters.

The nurse, birdwatcher and nature lover branded the noise of the helicopters “hell” that “shakes the plates in the cupboard.”

Story continues below…

On a piece of recycled paper, he had compiled a list of infringements on one particular evening: 10:23 pm “flyover”; 10:25 pm “ditto”; 10:26 pm “again.”

He measured one of those flights at 90 decibels, which is as loud as a jackhammer. Often the flights do not stop until midnight. Four years ago, Hiemer founded a citizen’s group, Etz langt’s, which has about 200 members. One of its mottos is: “Helicopters to wind turbines.”

The Ansbach City Council passed a resolution banning flights after 10 pm, but this is overridden by federal law. The Defence Ministry allows flights until midnight. In May and August, training flights are allowed until 1:30 am and in June and July they are permitted until 2 am.

The Local/djw

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

17:57 May 31, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:12 May 31, 2011 by marimay
I'd rather see helicopters than horse sausage trucks.
18:16 May 31, 2011 by sebastian2010
or maybe they can go home before they close the base on them.
18:17 May 31, 2011 by Soonerdiver
If you do not want the Americans there I am sure we can find a town/city in the US who would welcome the income generated by the soldiers and their dependents.

As for the Rambo image, I am sure some of the soldiers have such attitudes. But the majority of the soldiers truly enjoy living and working in Germany and they do NOT have this attitude.

Condsider all sides of the equation before you make a wish... you just might get what you wish for!
18:18 May 31, 2011 by marimay
Haha. Good luck with that.
18:18 May 31, 2011 by DoubleDTown
the really shocking thing is that the American military cares so little about the sleep of male nurses who use recycled paper. If the townspeople just used NEW paper, then I could understand why the Americans were so insensitive. But, seeing as how copious noise complaint notes are made on recycled paper perhaps the poor sleepless Bavarians really need some consideration.

I expect the Rambo occupiers usually stay up late watching American TV on the Internet so they aren't bothered by the noise.
18:18 May 31, 2011 by MJMH
Time for the American army (occupation) to move on. Close all the bases. There's no communist threat anymore.
18:19 May 31, 2011 by marimay
My post was directed at sebastian btw.
18:55 May 31, 2011 by Lachner
I am pro U.S. since I lived there for 5 years and pro Deutschland since I now live here and my parents are Deutsch, but I was born and raised in Costa Rica. Therefore, I think that I can give an unbiased opinion and honest recommendation. For everyone's sake, I think that it is time for the U.S. Military to go back to the U.S. or move their bases to another country that is willing to accept them and their economical benefits. As far as the Germans, they will be able then to sleep at night. Nonetheless, they will suffer greatly from the evacuation of the U.S. Military since they support the local economies where the bases are located (jobs, rents, consumption of local goods and services, etc.) and don't forget that the U.S. Military is currently taking care of German national security. Therefore, just give the Germans what they have been asking for years and let them take care of their own business from now on.
19:06 May 31, 2011 by Staticjumper
Well said, Lachner. I was stationed in Nurnberg from 1988 to 1991 and our company headquarters was on Katterbach AAF. I absolutely loved the area and the people! I'm suprised how tolerant the locals were of a bunch of rowdy, (sometimes drunk) young Americans running around the area, the convoys, the noise from the choppers, etc. But that was at the end of the cold war when we still prepared for the Soviet horde streaming across the Czech and East German borders. We have since completely closed down our bases in Nurnberg and consolidated several more. Maybe it is time for us to just say "Vielen Danke" and "Adi" to the locals and come home.
19:39 May 31, 2011 by wenddiver
Most towns in the US would kill to have the economic benefit of a large US base. With Air to Air refueling and the Giant Cargo planes, hopefully this will be possible one day. As to the Russians, they were a threat to Europe long before they became Communists. They are probably in a beter position now days to hurt Europe than during the Cold War, because so many of the countries of NATO have cut their Military and the US is occupied with the war on terror.

As to the Rambo comment, this generation of Soldiers are used to being loved and thanked by their countrymen ever since 911. The disrespect heaped on the Army prior to the Iranian's seizing the US embassy in 1979 is completely gone. Most Americans learned the alternative to the GI and know why they are there.
19:46 May 31, 2011 by belladons
Lachner, Wendiver, and Staticjumper, yes, I agree with you. I believe it's about time U.S. forces are drastically reduced in Germany excluding HQ type commands. The nation of Germany has been wonderful to the American people and, just like the Brits, it's time to pack up and go home.
19:49 May 31, 2011 by whpmgr
SO Lachner, your qualifications are without question. Wow, what credentials you have, Lived in teh US, German Parents, from Costa Rica, I won't suggest you may look into your family and how they ended up in South America, maybe they shouldn't visit anywhere the Simon Wiesenthal people may be looking, just saying.

I agree, the Amis need to go. Lets bring them back home, save the money, hurt the economy (Ask Bitburg, Lotzenhausen, Wiesbaden, Sembach, and so many other areas what that is like-still)have more jobs lost, and see if the Local Government can feed the complainers some "quiet" for dinner, maybe some "empty housing" for breakfast, and some "No more sales to the Dumb Ami Rambos" for Lunch.

As fro the US and the German Defense, as the world is "At the Moment" there is probably no need to have the military there, so once again, send them home. The problem is that Putin is coming back. THe russian aggression has been demonstrated at Georgia, so we know they have no problems with a military strike. When there are no American forces ont eh ground, and at risk, the AMerican government may just say -if aggression comes, that we are too busy, take care of it yourselves. We will be gone and it will take more time and effort to get back. With the world getting better able to cause wars, it may be dangerous to get back, and there may be greater loss of life in doing so. So, Hitler took france in short order as no one could stop him, this could happen again.

But why worry, just leave and that is not our problem anymore.I say keep people in the UK, as I love them dearly. Theya re true friends. The German Government is also a good friend but is conflicted by ignorant people who forget, and so are doomed to repeat history's lessons. Poland is a great allie-until we hosed them and their defense from Russian Missiles. HUngary is a great ally, as they need the money and are willing to have us. TIme to go.
20:29 May 31, 2011 by c12dat
Ahhh, the noise complainers of Ansbach/Katterbach. I think they have been complaining since 1970. I wonder if their forefather made noise complaints to the Luftwaffe about engine noise during the war. To "fly friendly" for the locals who live in the vicinity of the airfield; that has been there since 1938, the traffic pattern there is almost as crazy as Wiesbaden AAF. Just keep in mind that those helos and their crew will go out in the middle of the night to save the your ass when called upon ... just ask the Austrians what happened in 1999. Those aircrew need to train with night vision goggles and unfortunately during the summer months, it doesn't get dark till late, hence the need to fly after midnight. I have posted before that German military pilots get their training in the US ... those aircrafts and helicopters make noise too.

Get into a bad car accident on the autobahn, who comes along a rescue you ... a helicopter. Do you think the crew sits all day and train on Microsoft Flight Simlator? Nope. No subsitution for training in a real helicopter. Mr. Heimer has no problem whatsoever getting on a train going to Frankfurt and hop on an Airbus for his vacation. No thought whatsoever for the people living next to the train tracks or at the flugplatz. All aircraft noise complainers should carry a card that forbid them to get in any aircraft; card number 1 should go to Mr. Hiemer.

@ belladons; I think that it is the American people that has been wonderful to Germany. I also agree with your statement. My years in Germany have been wonderful. I will always treasure the memories and friends that I have made there.
20:32 May 31, 2011 by ND1000
Close the bases? Great idea! That would save America lots of money we could better spend at home stimulating our own economy. Soon as we leave they go back to hating each other rather than us. Sounds like a good plan.
20:34 May 31, 2011 by Jack Kerouac
@MJMH "Time for the American army (occupation) to move on. Close all the bases. There's no communist threat anymore."

I completely agree with that. The U.S. is treating Germany with very little respect. Come on guys, this isn't a Mid-East country harboring terrorists - it's GERMANY- an industrious, civilized western country. You can't walk all over the civilian population. This is one of the last willing to be allied with the U.S. What are the Americans thinking? Not a smart move in my opinion.
20:39 May 31, 2011 by ND1000
Here's a great idea. Move all bases to the States, invite more Europeans to train in America and thus squeeze money out of them for a change. We have lots of wide open spaces. Oh, yeah we should quit NATO as soon as possible.
21:00 May 31, 2011 by c12dat
@ Mr. Jack Kerouac,

Sir, I am assuming that you are refering to the 200 or so members of Mr. Heimer organization when you are talking about "walk all over the civilian population".

The aircrew at Katterbach (and other part of Germany) are following strict flight guidelines/rules set forth by the German Government; and the US Army. Please familiarize yourself with the Area Planing (AP), Area Planing 2 (AP2) pg 3-142-215, US Army Regulation AE 95-1, and there are unit's standard operating procedures that further restrict what I can and can not do as a military pilot in Germany. Bust those rules and my career is over. We respect the Germans who live in the area and we comply with the rules and regulations set forth in the publications listed above.

For the sake of discussion, if Mr Hiemer and his group live off the departure end of runway 18 of Franfurt, do you think that they should be allowed to control the flow of air traffic there?
21:07 May 31, 2011 by HJ Marseille
Whenever German boys want to stand up and defend their own country I am sure our Rambos will come home. It's only been 66 years since the end of WWII, how about the Germans find their manhood.
22:05 May 31, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
22:06 May 31, 2011 by LittleSheepCreek
All you arrogant Americans only reinforce the World's attitudes about us. No wonder the world hates Americans. We can't even respect people's right to a night's sleep. I am sure that all of you arrogant types would be happy to have aircraft flying low-level over your bedrooms late at night.

There was once a time when an American's word could be trusted.
22:30 May 31, 2011 by btomi
+1 to LittleSheepCreek
22:40 May 31, 2011 by XFYRCHIEF
Just a few thoughts: First 90db is the level of a gasoline lawnmower or a hair dryer; a jackhammer is 125 db - considerably louder. Second, instead of reporting the total number of complaints, how about the number of complaints from different people? All 500 could have been from a single person. According to different standards, a person could be exposed to 90 db for 2 - 8 hours per day without suffering hearing loss or damage. Checking a listing of actual measured noise levels, the noise level inside the cockpit of a Chinook or Blackhawk is 106 db, and the the noise level of a helicopter at 150 meters is 68 db. Also the article didn't report what scale the measurement was taken or type of meter being used - unless it is calibrated it may not even be accurate. I live 3 miles from a major airport, so I know what aircraft noise can be - and I'll bet many of those on the planes are German.

Hey, LSC - I, for one American, what does this have to do with our "word"? Funny how Germany can regulate the use of a phrase like "Kiss my arse", but it can't regulate noise???
23:27 May 31, 2011 by Major B
Since starting to read this online paper almost two years ago now I've enjoyed both reading the comments and making my own. Sometimes I'm either sardonic or sarcastic, like some of my comrades above.

While living in Western Europe years ago I would look closely at its modernity, the infrastructure, the living standards and think, "and we're defending these folks?"

Our Bavarian friends will have this answered for them because there has been a move to drastically reduce the U.S. military presence in Germany. The Generals had to hold Bill Gates back a few years ago when he wanted to do it but now that he is gone those cuts are back on the table.

There's a side of me that would like to see a few units like this one move a little further east, to former East Prussia, where they would surely be welcome in Poland. Just far enough over the Oder to say f_ _k you!!!!
23:54 May 31, 2011 by c12dat
Greeting Litte SheepCreek,

Sir/Ma'am; when I was base at Giebelstadt AAF, I lived in a nice town of Gossmannsdorf. The apartment I lived in was very nice, but it was 15 meters away from a set of railroad tracks. Freight trains, ICE from Wurzburg to Nuremburg, and regional trains pass by my apartment day and night. Do you think that 200 of my neighbors and I would have gotten the time of day with the German government to make the trains take another route so I we can our "right to a night's sleep"? The answer would have been a loud "NEIN!!!". I am certain that DB schedules their traffic as needed to support the customers and their profit; not the folks who live next to the rail road track. By the way, when was a night's sleep a "right"?

I wonder why most folks are against US military aircraft noise. German helicopters and fighter jets must be the quietest one in the world. So quiet that German military pilots go to the US to get their training; don't believe me? Look it up yourself. Of the hundreds of civilian and military airfield in Germany, only Katterbach has 201 noise complainers??? Mr. Heimer and his gang ought to relocate next to EDDF where there are no noise complaints.

Do you have any idea of the restrictions on the traffic pattern altitude at Katterbach? Our approach angle is so steep, it is almost an autorotation. Do some more reading/research before making comment such as flying low-level over someone house. Mr Hiemer and his 200 buddies are "busybodies". You can read the comments here and see the anti-military/US agenda. If it isn't the "noise" on the helicopters, they will complain about something else.

Hate the "Americans" if you wish, but when the sh*t hits the fans, by all means, bring in your helicopters and transport aircraft and save us.... My buddies and I will be glad to do so with smile on our faces.
03:09 June 1, 2011 by DOZ
Kick their sorry butts out of Germany, along with their Canuck and Brit Buddies as well. Reclaim you sovereignty, like Quebec will very soon.
04:25 June 1, 2011 by hanskarl
I wonder what they thought when all of the helo's were dual blade main and tail rotors like the Hueys and Cobra's. The Blackhawk is a four rotor Helo and very much quieter than the Huey. So is the Apache compared to the Cobra. Are they certain these are American Helo's and not leftovers that other countries purchased or still have in their fleet? Many countries train together especially in today's multi country forcecoms in so many areas of the world. And yes, New Mexico appreciates all of the Germans doing fighter pilot and fighter attack training there. We used to hear them screech through the valleys once in awhile. BTW, the boys from Germany usually kick *rse in the Fussball championships in New Mexico.
05:41 June 1, 2011 by MfromUSA
You need to kick their arrogant arses out of your country.

It seems very clear that the US military doesn't respect you.

Hell, they don't even acknowledge you when you try to correspond with them!!!!

America's military establishment thinks that America's military empire is GOD almighty.

The communities that think they need the income from the military bases are BEING HELD HOSTAGE by the US military. They got you over a barrel, and they know it.

Hence, NO RESPECT for your requests.

08:14 June 1, 2011 by delvek
Now we know the reason why anyone who posted here is not in a position to make relevant decisions regarding this manner.

Laughable responses.
08:33 June 1, 2011 by aceroni
Guys, this is the country where you can't drill a hole or mow your lawn on Sundays without the police visiting you for disturbing the Ruhezeit, where people stop working and 4pm, the shops close at 6pm and you can't find a single thing open after Saturday afternoon. It's nothing to do with politics, or USA, is plain bavarian attitude
08:42 June 1, 2011 by adipk
"in the 1970s, the commander supposedly made a ¦quot;gentleman¦#39;s agreement¦quot; with the then mayor of Ansbach: the helicopters would fly as little as possible over populated areas and never at night."

Well!!!!! this is normal behavior.

One said that they must close the base and spend money on US. yessss thats nice idea coz US need more money than anyone else so please pack your stuff and marry Christmas.
08:55 June 1, 2011 by fourwheeler77
Seriously people?! I love living in Germany and I always talk good about Germany to many of my American friends. After reading Anti-American comments constantly on the local, I am wondering why I love Germany so much. It used to be for the friendly people, but now I am trying to come up with another reason. Sure, move the Americans out of Germany. We already have to go to many former Eastern block countries to train with our airplanes because of the flight restrictions that Germany imposes on us. Countries like Poland, Bulgaria and Romania allow us to do so many more things that need to be accomplished and practically beg us to come boost their economies.

For all of you on here, do not think there are not nutjobs in the United States not complaining about the noise. When I was stationed at Nellis in Las Vegas, we constantly got complaints. What makes that funny is the fact that the base USED to be a long ways from town, but now the town has practically surrounded the base. Those complaining did not live there when the base was established a long time ago. They moved in within the last 10-20 years, so they should have known what they were moving close to.

I will always respect German for the simple fact that my better half is German. Germany has some very good government programs to support people, but it seems like more and more German citizens and the government are becoming more like American, where people bitch and complain about stupid crap!

If you do not want us in your country, there are many that will be happy to leave and go some place that we are appreciated.
08:57 June 1, 2011 by ND1000
LittleSheepCreek, let me start this by saying Im both German and American with passports from both. With that said I have some shocking news for you. All countries and cultures are arrogant, Germans being some of the most arrogant on the planet. French, British, Japnanese, Americans, etc. are all about on the same level. Get over it pal, open your eyes, and grow up. The world is a big business that Europeans started. It just so happens that America (created by Europeans as the ultimate business) are very good at it. So the base will stay open as long as its lining German pockets with American taxes. Grow up and take some history classes and pay attention.
09:11 June 1, 2011 by signalgrl
It is funny how much effort and thought people have put into their comments.. Perhaps it is time for the military bases to go back. Build up the economy for our own people and stop building up the pockets of this wonderful host nation. If the American military leaves something horrific and unpredictable will happen and fingers will point to Americans as to why we were not there to lend support. Whether any of us like or not there is a dependability on our nation. Sometimes our nation likes to make sure other nations have to depend on us and then others always look to us for a helping hand or some form of security... Having said that in most societies federal law/regulations trump local or city laws. So where is the argument?
09:23 June 1, 2011 by FLStormOrphan
Keep complaining we don't want them either. My family land was taken in 1942 for a military base on the west coast of the US. The noise and arrogance just keep getting worse. The Pentagon bloat needs to be cut. The entire military is obsolete we don't need billion dollar aircraft to blow up pick-up trucks. We need more reliance on intelligence. The US needs to stop forcing democracy and values on sovereign nations. We are not the police of the world and should not expect to change values that have been in place for centuries to please us. Instead we should strive to improve our own standards, starting with universal health care. No I will not drink the Kool Aid and worship military might.
09:39 June 1, 2011 by hick
Really? Talk to some of the German Chopper pilots at Roth or Niederstetten and ask how they and their command deal with noise complaints. Look, this is the first time in 5-6 yrs the entire CAB is back at the same time, so the influx in noise is going to be obvious. We don't have 100 choppers here at Kbach, that number includes the birds at Illesheim. The Bavarians here in Franconia that complain are extreme, e.g. one citizen making over 300 complaints in a month. Come on. I spoke with a teacher at my son's kindergarten today and she told me about her crazy neighbor in the town of Wicklesgreuth that calls nonstop. Even she said he is sick. If I sit at home and listen for choppers all day then yes I will hear them, but I don't. This airfield has been here since the mid to late 30's. It was used by the Luftwaffe to execute bombing raids on Poland and other places. It is not something that just appeared in the last decade. I think it boils down to two things.. an outright hatred of Americans and having nothing better to do. Those that live next to a railroad don't complain to DB every time a train comes, and those that live near a farm field don't complain about the constant noise of the tractor every time he comes by. In the 70's things were alot different then now. Let the 5-10 people who hate us keep hating. We fly respectfully, and friendly and can only mask the sound of a helicopter so much. Look at how much money we generate here. Ask a German if they would pay 1000 Euro a month rent for some of the small, old places we live in. This community makes bank off of us. I love Germany, but I have never seen a place as hateful as Ansbach in my 14 yrs here in D-land.
09:57 June 1, 2011 by LeeBrown
Eh. I lived in Virginia Beach for a long time and there was constant complaints from Americans about the jet noise in that area. And you wouldn't call that anti American sentiment. The noise gets old after awhile. I can understand their point of view.
10:46 June 1, 2011 by dbert4
@FLStormOrphan - You are right.

The US military are predominately ignorant red-necks. You can take the boy out of TX or AL but......
11:03 June 1, 2011 by Gilly58
why is Bavaria the richest state in Germany... did 66 years of US economical input perhaps have anything to do with it? If Mr O, does pull the plug because they are no longer wanted, the impact to the local econony will undoubtedley suffer as a consequence, and the domino effect of such a mass withdrawral will effect those district communities dearly. The US also continues to be a key importer of German commodities. I would just say to all of those people with short memories, posting in this forum you should be greatful that you are in a position to post such crap because it was the US and its western allies that gave you the freedom to do so in first place. Armed Forces must train to enable them to be ready to face the ever increasingly unpretictable, and elminate the threat so that we can ALL eventually sleep safely in our homes, even if that means after midnight.
11:09 June 1, 2011 by loz_adele
I think a lot of you are being a bit unfair. Ok, so there are some crazies who have nothing better to do than complain non-stop and blow it out of proportion, but that doesnt mean the noise isn't disturbing people. I remember back in my hometown in the UK the local police got a helicopter and I was sometimes woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of it flying overhead looking for criminals or chasing stolen cars or whatever. Now this was double glazed windows and yet it was still loud enough to wake me up. And it was never a case of it flying over just once, it was constantly going back and forth preventing me from getting any sleep, it drove me crazy. So I know that the sound of helicopters is incredibly annoying. Luckily though, it wasn't all that often. In the article it doesn't say whether this is happening every night but if it is, of course people are going to get worked up and irrational, that's what sleep deprivation does to you, it makes you a little crazy. All that's needed is a little compromise on both sides, maybe they can restrict it to a few nights a week. The way the military has gone about it, ie. simply ignoring the complaints instead of addressing them, has just made things worse. It's like anything else, a little courtesy and discussion goes a long way. I don't think the military should have to stop their training but I do think the people deserve at least a few nights a week of uninterrupted sleep.
11:23 June 1, 2011 by trash head
As if the germans need the burgerboys for protecting themself Lol
11:48 June 1, 2011 by ChrisRea
I find it funny that most anti-German comments on this websites show exactly the 'Rambo attitude' the guys from Ansbach are complaining about. So it might be that it is not the army that makes the GIs described in this article be so rude.
12:24 June 1, 2011 by LiberalGuy
I think everyone needs to settle down. This is once again another non story that the local has published to get everyone rilled up. I doubt you find this story mentioned anywhere else in the mainstream media. Maybe instead of blamming each other, look to the people reporting it. It's a mountain out of a mole hill.
12:47 June 1, 2011 by freechoice
you Americans can stay, as long as you are one phone call away, and send some Mavericks at those eerie Friday the 13th screeching DB cargo trains when they passed by my neighbourhood!
12:49 June 1, 2011 by Johnne
@Lachner, you´re 100% right.

I wouldn´t have supported the US Army leaving Germany. But with some of the comments made here by some US citizens, I say it loud that the US Army (not civilian americans) should infact get OUT OF GERMANY!! U--B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E! SO, some people are so ignorant that they warn Germany of Russian & Iranian aggression :-)) Myyy God! at this age?! Germany is a civilized & democratic country. All nationals are free to live & work in any country they wish to but not as military occupation, this is not Iraq or Afghanistan. I don´t know why some people think the Germans can´t protect themselves! instead of some bros & sis here to just come out straight and say they "prefer" life here in Germany than in the US, which is not bad, they´re playing the Russian aggression game.

I think the Russians are busy enough with expanding their wealth and economy than planning some kind of war. The aggression on Georgia is not so different from NATO´s or US aggression on other regions so what the point here. My family lost a whole Auto house/business when the base in Heidelberg & Mannheim was reduced, and that even facilitated my moving to Munich (so I know what closing a base means) but let´s face the fact, this country will survive without the US Army Bases. It´ll be good anyway because it´ll give average US Nationals willing to remain the opportunity to stay as normal immigrants, willing to live, work & integrate into the German society like anyone else.
12:53 June 1, 2011 by freechoice
US should move there bases to the eastern front. They badly need the economic boost from US military expenditures. Beside Germany is self sufficient with tremendous economic production and low unemployment.

Most actions are happening in the Middle East, and Libya. Would be strategically important to move to the East!
13:22 June 1, 2011 by trash head
> Most actions are happening in the Middle East, and Libya. Would be strategically important to move to the East!

You know, after Rambo ruled Afghanistan - His war is over - LMAO !
13:46 June 1, 2011 by Gretl
I love it! Germans should know that if it isn't in the written contract, it doesn't exist. The Americans are following the laws. Tough cookies.
14:19 June 1, 2011 by TheSavageLegend
The 50 year contract between Germany and America ended in 2005, and the military had plans on relocating to the Chzeck Republic, since it is cheaper, but Germany renewed / extended the contract in the 11th hour.
14:33 June 1, 2011 by ovalle3.14
I find it curious that some people use confrontational reasonings to justify anything military-related, as if the US army was the only thing keep the world from becoming a chaotic, terrorism-ridden wasteland.

Like someone already pointed out, the Cold War has been over for quite a while.
14:50 June 1, 2011 by Bravo2
Military personnel arrogant? But of course, that is our military culture and we are pretty proud of it. And I am sorry to bring ancient history up but why is the U.S. military here in the first place? That's right, WWII, a war we had to come fight when a little Austrian with bad facial hair took over this country. The U.S. would have been more than glad to stay away from Europe after WWI. Sorry to say it, but you started this. God bless the USA.
14:50 June 1, 2011 by freechoice
shame on the local governments, made decisions without consulting the populace. an re-enactment of Stuttgart 21!
14:56 June 1, 2011 by Gilly58

Bang on the money ole chap! It kinda reiterates what I already posted earlier...God Bless You too!
15:46 June 1, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
16:02 June 1, 2011 by delvek
The departure of the US military from Germany would be a severe economic blow to the southern half of the country that neither Germany or the US wants to see happen.

Some of you really need to take our heads out of the bucket its been in.

Bravo2 is correct, although "ancient history" we were invited here by a German leader for a bit of a romp in the backyard.
17:14 June 1, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:13 June 1, 2011 by BHilferty
Our leadership and our aviators take every step possible to lessen any noise burden on while preparing the US and NATO airmen that train here.

We regularly utilize state-of-the-art flight simulators to reduce actual time flying, but there is no substitute for actually flying. We must practice flying at night; unfortunately, in the summer it doesn¦#39;t get dark here until late.

Finally, those making the most noise are a vocal minority. In March we received 1459 complaints in this area-1438 from the same two people including the one guy quoted in this article.

Bryan Hilferty

Colonel, US Army

Chief, Public Affairs
18:13 June 1, 2011 by Beachrider
The measurements in the article are clearly exaggerations, the author will have trouble being believed. There could be a problem with a high-volume of flights. If the American airbase is breaking their agreements, you can appeal to the US Ambassador of Germany. I never approve of misbehavior of soldiers in an at-peace position like Germany.

I agree with taking the soldiers out of Germany, and I am American. I am tired of spending American taxpayer money protecting a population that sees little value in the protection. America needs to seek out friends and allies that share a view of the next strategic situations.

Germany doesn't even work things out with its EU neighbors, let alone a superpower thousands of miles away. Germany does get to make its own choices, so isolationism can be chosen. Don't expect favorable trade laws then, though.
19:32 June 1, 2011 by willowsdad
I'm all for having troops from Germany (and any other country the US has bases in) set up their own bases in the US and let the US populace see what a picnic it is to have foreign troops (even "friendly" ones) on one's soil.
21:55 June 1, 2011 by Celeon
On a related note, residents of Alamogordo New Mexico have filed complaints against the Luftwaffe Flight Taining Center there multiple times over the last decades.

Mostly complaints about noise caused by low level flights and in one case because of two german Tornadoes which collided with one of them going down near someone's ranch ;-) The owner also used some comparable term to "rambo like" :-D
22:20 June 1, 2011 by Eric D
they do the same ignorant **** in Korean and Japan

just throw them out you will be rejoiced
22:33 June 1, 2011 by zeddriver
@ willowsdad Funny how you say that like it's a bad thing. I personally would not have a problem with our allies having a base in the US. I was stationed at a US base that had a lot of troops from Iran. It was different but not bad. But then, If one was predisposed to xenophobia. It would be a bad thing.

I could understand the complaints if the US and German governments had built an air field where non had existed before. But, This air field has been in operation since 1938.

I would even understand if the major complainer was born there prior to 1938. But, I don't believe this is the case.

If you don't like hot weather. don't move to a desert and then start complaining about the heat.

If one does not like aircraft noise. Don't move near an aerodrome.

Just think of how much money the German citizen does not have to spend on it's own defense.

And just like the US support of the Afghan rebels is now haunting it. The selling of German weapons to it's allies and enemies alike for a quick buck. Will haunt Germany some day. And who do you think will be there to help

Germany if the worse happens? Russia, or China. Perhaps the middle east will come to your aid. No! It will be the USA.
00:26 June 2, 2011 by Northern Monkey
I can't believe some of the US comments on here-get over yourselves.

Not content with alienating half of the muslim world, you now turn on allies for having the nerve to criticise you for insensitivity? Don't forget that, like me, you are a guest here, and that when push comes to shove, people survive without the US dollar!
00:38 June 2, 2011 by Eric D
I guess that's why the U.S is Financially ruined

go clean your own **** in your own backyard you need it

and german is not the U.K we don't beg for help when the **** it's the fan
00:48 June 2, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
00:51 June 2, 2011 by Northern Monkey
Larsbar-you've picked up the defence tab for the UK? Really? can we bill you for our involvement in Afghanistan?
03:06 June 2, 2011 by lassenfels
Is there any real neccessity for the base?

US citizens would rather have our troops home,including those in Euro countries.

The locals in Bavaria may appear friendly but there is alot of American hatred and anti-semitism coming out of Germany.It would be best to return home,many bases/cities could use a boost to their economies.

Germany doesn't need any help and they may need the base for their allies from Turkey.
08:42 June 2, 2011 by MfromUSA
All of you US military people or military supporters need to get your heads out of your arses!!!

You are NOT special, you are NOT entitled to endlessly disrupt the lives of civilians, and you are NOT entitled to BUY whatever you wish to buy.....and that includes the silence of those who have to put up with your noise and your arrogance.

There is NOTHING about picking up a gun and killing people that makes you special. YOU..meaning the collective military, invaded a country for no good reason. You followed the mandate of the WORST president in American history. When war is WRONG, it is incumbent upon YOU to say so, and to refuse to kill. I don't give a rat's butt why you defend the US military. Your rationalizations are nothing but hot air.

IF YOU NEED TO TRAIN, THEN DO IT ON AMERICAN SOIL, AND LET THE REST OF THE WORLD SLEEP. Or better yet, go train somewhere extremely isolated.

It is really disgusting to read the posts of people who defend the bully US military.
08:56 June 2, 2011 by StuttgartTim
If some of these comments are really from Americans than you should be ashamed. I wouldn't be surprised however if some are "plants". Personally, I don't make any noise to bother my local neighbors after 10 PM. I wouldn't do it back in the States, and I wouldn't do it in a host country. I believe this is a shameful arrogant attitude to take. Absolutely, Germany benefits economically from so many Americans. That does not mean we should be jerks about it. It's a very simple and basic point. Be considerate.
12:22 June 2, 2011 by tech71
All this because of a few sniviling NIMBYs, Fine lets leave. All of us right now and while we are at it lets boot the Herms training in the US out. Maybe they can rent airspace over Poland to train.Too freaking whipped to even be allowed to train over their own soil. Might be a good idea to make an arrangement with the Poles to defend them as well.
13:31 June 2, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
15:08 June 2, 2011 by TheSGM
Having lived and worked on the Katterbach base in the 80s I can attest to the noise abatement problems. Being at the NCO Academy and running a 5 day ground field exercise every 8 weeks south of the airfield continually raise the ire of the locals. No matter what we did to appease them (no noise after 10pm nor before 7am) seemed to work. A core of people from Ansback and Katterbach did not want us their and they were the problem eventhough the majority of the populace paid no attention until a few routy GIs acted like kids.
15:22 June 2, 2011 by marimay
I think the US military should leave. I want to see what nonsense the Germans come up with to make WW3.
16:53 June 2, 2011 by HistoryProffessor
To all posters, What everyone needs to remember is that the Federal Level of the German Government has agreed to allow the 12th CAB to house and train its soldiers here in the Ansbach Community. So basically what it boils down to, is the individuals that the German Citizens elect to lead them have made a decision on their behalf (which is the whole point of an electoral democracy) That being said, the locals of Ansbach are wasting their time by complaing to their local gov. and to the USAG Ansbach and 12th CAB. All of the regulations placed apon 12th CAB by the Germany National GOVT. are being followed. The citizens of Ansbach should take this problem up with the politicians they have elected. That being said. US Personnel here in the Ansbach and Neighboring community acknowlege the fact that we are guests in a host nation. We respect the Germany culture and try to assimulate to it as much as possible. We do not wear our uniforms around town, we make our best attempt to speak German, and we have limited our use of military style vehicles outside of our fence. What I would ask of the German people is that as we should respect them, they should try to respect the fact that we are here simplying performing our jobs. We dont complain or protest against the jobs the Germans do. (which are usually poor in both quality and service)The truth is, most of us love being here, despite the lack of socialability the german people have in general and their severe lack of attention to the concept of service with a smile. We all want to blend in and be a part of the German Culture. We abide by all of their rules, regulations, customs and traditions. My next point is, Terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and Hamas do not just target US Personnel, it is widely known that their Jihad has been placed on all of the "Western World". Germany, you are part of the Western World and you have your forces in Afghanistan as well. You are and will be targeted by terrorists. Does it not feel good knowing that should you be attacked, the most powerful military is in the world is living right here with you to protect you. Not only that, but we also pay you to be here. Despite your lack of love for us, we have your back. The last thing I would like to point out is that we were not just placed here to protect you from communism. We were also put here to keep them from committing the atrocities they did in the past. Lets not forget that a little over a half of a century ago over a third of the worlds jewish community was wiped off the face of the earth by many who still live happily within the German Border. The German people have proven over the past two centuries that they cannot be trusted and although it appears they have changed today. That is still part of the reason we remain. I hold no hatred for the German people. In a lot of ways I admire them. However, there are reasons why Americans are here and they shouldnt be forgotten or ignored.
16:54 June 2, 2011 by MfromUSA

I am NOT a plant, and I am NOT ashamed of the comments that I make about OUR US MILITARY.

I am sick to death of what the US military does, and what it stands for anymore.

Rambo boys, professional killers, invaders of nations ( under the bald faced lie of WMD) who do not threaten us, and the list goes on.............

I have NO problem with the concept of a responsible military force.

I am deeply disgusted with what our US military has come to signify.

So, don't attempt to discredit my opinion with calling me a plant or telling me to feel ashamed........it isn't working.

If anyone needs to feel ashamed it is the people who kill and harm innocent civilians, no matter where they live.

I have utterly lost respect for you since the invasion of IRAQ. And the arrogance that lead to that invasion is what continues to repulse me.

GET IT????
17:08 June 2, 2011 by HistoryProffessor

The Soldiers that you hate did not make the decision to go to war. They made the choice to defend their country and protect the civilians that live within our borders and abroad.

The individuals who our country elected into office made those decisions for us. The military will always follow the orders of its leaders. Their sworn duty is to do just that.

Do not hate the American Soldier for the decisions elected officials made. Do not blaim the American Soldier for your unhappiness and your problems. Spend the time you took posting on here spewing hatred to write your congressman. Or better yet, go vote in the next election.

Do you respect the soldiers from WWII? and WWI? those soldiers, and the soldiers today joined the military for the same reasons. They have all shown the same level of courage and bravery. They have all chosen a nobel proffession that most are to much of a coward to take up. RESPECT THAT.

17:53 June 2, 2011 by LarsBar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:32 June 2, 2011 by frankiep
I say this as a former soldier in the US army and someone who spent quite some time stationed in Germany. The arrogance and patronizing attitude the US military displays towards their German hosts is embarrassing. This same attitude is on full display in many of the comments here.

The comments here are exactly the reason why so many people look at Americans as being loud mouth idiots who are completely full of themselves.

Ridiculous claims that a few US military bases are single-handedly keeping the economy in Germany - which has one of the strongest economies in the WORLD - from going into a depression.

Ridiculous claims that the US is solely responsible for defending Germany, and Europe as a whole while conveniently ignoring the fact that the UK, France, and Germany have the 4th, 5th, and 6th militarily most powerful nations in the world.

Ridiculous claims that the withdrawal of God's Holy and Almighty American Military will immediately bring about an invasion of Europe by the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, etc.

Ridiculous claims that people here would do everything but sell their own mother's for a chance to have another US base open in their neighborhood.

It goes on and on, and frankly it makes me ashamed that I was ever a part of it. The worst part though has to be the attitude, on extensive display here, that Germans should be grateful to US military and that they should get on their hands and knees and kiss its ass because the military is "nice enough" to not fly attack helicopters over their houses at 2:00 AM.

Here's a new flash: the US is NOT the center of the universe. You do NOT have the right to **** all over your hosts because of what happened 70 years ago. You are NOT so special or "heroes" just because you wear a uniform - contrary to the unbridled propaganda fed military worship you are used to in the States. What you are are guests who have repeatedly patronized, disrespected, and insulted your hosts in nearly every location you are located.
18:58 June 2, 2011 by Beachrider
I guess the better title to this article would be:

"US chopper flights whip 2 Bavarians into fury", but it wouldn't server to include that salient fact.
19:38 June 2, 2011 by Gretl
frankie - as to "You do NOT have the right to **** all over your hosts because of what happened 70 years ago." Yeah, we do. We are an occupying force. We still occupy Italy, and Japan, too. I think the US should go home. There is nothing strategically important about Europe, and if Europe needs our assistance, they can hire us and pay the bill. I laugh at the concept of an integrated European force working together....
20:08 June 2, 2011 by ChrisRea
Hat off to StuttgartTim, MfromUSA and frankiep! It is comforting to see that there are Americans with common sense and respect for other cultures.

@MfromUSA - I am pretty sure that StuttgartTim was not referring to you, but to the arrogant ones (some of they even being proud of being arrogant).
20:49 June 2, 2011 by planedr
Maybe if you would have won a war against us you could have a say what we do.
21:19 June 2, 2011 by marimay
You have to wonder if they would still be complaining if it were a German base they were living next to. Probably not.
23:54 June 2, 2011 by willowsdad
"Apres moi le deluge"?!?!!? Is someone really using a quote from Louis XIV defending the French monarchy to justify the US Empire???
01:29 June 3, 2011 by whpmgr
I htink that you will all find that in most cases, the places American Bases are are usually in small areas and we are the major contributing force hiring Germans and keeping the economy going. Take a look at K-town and see who the largest single job provider is...permasens, Heidleberg (for a short time more), Ansbach, You will see that in those areas, Spangdahlem, it is the US Military.

The US Military is not a bunch of Rambos, and a great deal of Germnas love us. Teh US Military is not an invading force, and Germany Has not been an occupied country since 1987. Germany is a great place. I love it. Most Germans do not hate us, but being very smart people, well educated and traveled, they recognize the few idiots that are in Germany wearing an American uniform and talk about them. We are all ambassadors fro our country, so when one makes a mistake, we all look a bit worn and tattered afterwards.

MfromUSA, you are entitled to your opinion, just like the Dixie Chicks---and they found out how dumb they were for showing their opinion publicly. We do not censor you, we want you to speak and let the world know who people like you are.

The US is not saving anyone, but when we wage war, and a tank is in a church, or in a school, at least we, and out allies, do not kill the kids or the neighbors(on purpose) to get that one tank. We are kind, we care, we show restraint, regardless of what many idiots think. When someone says 100's of Thousands of people ahve been killed in Afghanistan or Iraq, lets see who really did the killing, and where the numbers came from. There are a great many Americans that are just like Michael Moore, that is ok, history will show what is right or wrong, and none of us will be there to see.

When Someone calls GW the worst president, look at Carter, Clinton, Obama, Truman, Nixon (But I liked tricky Dick), Ford, McKinley, there are a great many people who may fit in way ahead of him.

We need to respect our hosts and most of us do. We need to be who we are trained to be and most of us are. We need to follow the rules and most do. Sad that this has turned into an excuse for a couple of people and that a US Army Colonel has steped up and given credit to the Crap in this article by officially making a comment #58- why give it legs to run.
02:48 June 3, 2011 by Lachner
@ whpmgr

"SO Lachner, your qualifications are without question. Wow, what credentials you have, Lived in teh US, German Parents, from Costa Rica, I won't suggest you may look into your family and how they ended up in South America, maybe they shouldn't visit anywhere the Simon Wiesenthal people may be looking, just saying."

Your comment about my family was completely disrespectful, since you are assuming that my family was affiliated to the Nazi Party and thus had to flee from Germany. My family migrated from Germany to Costa Rica at the beginning of the 1900's before the rise of the Third Reich. Why did I live in the United States during 5 years? I got a scholarship at a U.S. University to pursue a Bachelor's Degree. Why am I now in Germany? I got another scholarship to get an MBA. Hmmm...I guess I am very educated so that makes me qualified. Also, I have a dual nationality (Costa Rican & German) so that entitles me to state my opinion about my country.

In your case, I suggest you read more books and get some education, since Costa Rica is in Central America and not in South America as you stated.
07:49 June 3, 2011 by Bill Simpson
Afghanistan isn't big enough to practice? The Western USA is too crowded? No Federal land out there? Maybe the Australians could fine some land in the Outback. They are fighting in Afghanistan too.
10:02 June 3, 2011 by LeeBrown
Please know that the majority of the Americans living in Germany are very thankful for the opportunity to experience another culture, practice a new language and travel extensively throughout this beautiful country. It is, and will remain, one of my most treasured memories.

whpmgr, please take a typing and or grammar class.
11:00 June 3, 2011 by marimay
I am more concerned about whpmgr's love for GWB. lol
11:06 June 3, 2011 by ErickDDiaz
Have the Polizie cite the copters when they speed on the B-13/B-14 ??? heheheheh?
19:31 June 3, 2011 by thor2748
I love The Local. It puts really big smiles on my face when I read some of the comments above. This is better than any comic book out there.

But so as not to let you think I've missed the point, Germany does train to defend themselves and if additional help is required, NATO will be called upon. The United States was part of the solution in WWII and in deep gratitude to our Allies (who by the way invited the US into the European Theater).

There are places in the USA where training noise resulting from low flying aircraft and noisy vehicles is strongly protested - verbally and ugly signs all over the place.

The important thing for the Allied Forces in Europe is to comply with existing agreements extended to Sending States Forces by the respective Host Nation (that means the country the forces are stationed/operating in). If that is done, the argument is not with that Sending State Force, but with one's own government. If the government decides its citizens are being negatively effected, that government can change the rules and the Sending State Force must comply. There is no need for bashing any one person or making a personal assult. It is all being done in accordance with agreements made by the citizens representation. Get them to change it.

As for the reference to the "Rambo" tactics of the US Forces. The loud, boistrous, offensive behavior of some people, whether they be soldiers or civilians is a fact of life and will occur in Katterbach, at the Octoberfest or a bar in any city in the United States. Human nature knowa no boundaries. But, educate yourself on the art of war before you condemn a soldier for being a soldier.

Once again I must say, this has been an exhilerating list of commnets to read. Thank you all.
22:15 June 3, 2011 by whpmgr
Lachner: Central, South, it is all just a matter of miles. Coming from the real part of North America, I accept the rebuke for location, a minor mistake. I hav ebeen places and seen things you could never imagine. And since you do not serve voluntarily to protect your countries, I guess I know what you are really like, whether you like my opinionb or not, I bet your family in the 30's and 40's had a great deal of contact with the NAZI machine as they typically reached out to nationals around the globe to get help, money, spy, etc. You may never know it happened, as no one would ever really admit it, but I would bet a great deal of money it happened. If it did, would you even admit it?

Lee Brown: My worst errors in typing seem to come from typing The and Some. I am not sure why, but it is probably a mental sickness associated with my paranoid Schizophrenia, compounded, no doubt, by my sick conservative pro american views which were probably the manifestation of some distant relative molesting me sexually as a child, I must have just blocked out those things and they seep out of me at times of need or when I am writing my stupid, and uneducated comments.

AHHH the status of forces agreements and other treaties. Well, as stated so beautifully many times above, if Germans have problems with the status quo, or the noise, elect soemone who will change it. If you dont have any pols that will change things it will be for one of two reasons: 1. They cant as it is the way it should be for everyone's sake (economic or otherwise) or they are terrible Pols and not representing their constituents at all.

For any American bashing Americans: Hey thank God teh US Military stood up for you and gave you that right. I remember things so many years ago in the very country you are talking about couldn't do that. They were set upon and sent to nice little places where they could work for the good of the Vaterland, and give until it hurt. You see, Arbeit Macht Frei, and Free to say what you want today didn't come cheap nor very easily.

And finally, for Helicopters flying above some houses late at night, I am sorry that you are affected, if you care. BUt if you dont care and a few people act like you do, stand up and tell someone that these crazies are not representing you.

Love your brother, and treat your enemy with respect and dignity. SOmeon must remain trustworthy
10:25 June 4, 2011 by Motorhead
GEEEEZUS, the US military needs to just get out of Germany and the rest of Europe. Sixty-six years after the end of WWII, I think the Europeans can fend for themselves militarily...and pay for their social welfare systems, too.
14:23 June 4, 2011 by Peacebetweenall
Great article on Spigel on German Cities outside of urban areas falling to pieces and folks moving away. On a follow on article about US Military pullouts from small town (that many wanted removed after the cold war) realized the mistake. Don't hear or read about it much but MANY towns (US and other nations) once had over 570 bases here. The economic impact to the ones in large cities such Munich/Frankfurt was little to zill ...... to small ones, devestating. So, time to let the US go. Most are right, if the city doesn't want them, cities such as Hohenfels and Baumholder have always stated they'd take them. Even Bamberg, a beautiful medium sized city, has faught and somehow kept the US there with the Mayor going as far as travelling to DC. There's a great story of where a US base once was in Munich ... folks bitched of the noise and it was the first base to move upon the fall of the USSR. Our German Government looked out for "economic" growth and guess what .... build an extension to the Autobahn and surrounding infrastructure. Now, instead of the limited noise of some large Army trucks and occasional mechnized vehicles, there's 24-7 traffic right up to peoples houses. Two years ago, a fantastic article on how we have to live with the 2nd and 3rd orders of effects when we are demanding too much and "wish" for better things. It's not all well in our country and if we keep moving away from our beautiful small towns where there's some "problems" with young Americans and demand they leave, they will. For most writing on here, I'm happy to have a job, a house, a great life because of the trickle down economic benefit the US helped with in my small town. If you all in K'bach don't want the base, PLEASE, let us in Baumholder are know and we'll take them IMMEDIATELY - billions in investments in the years. I for one am thankful - big city folks, stop bitching and write about your real crime problems.
14:39 June 4, 2011 by DUSTOFFpilot
I would like the small percentage of people complaining about noise, to ask the German Military if they would like the Americans to leave Ansbach. This is the same great airfield and community that the heroic MEDEVAC crews reside, who were called in on 2 April 20110, the German Army's darkest day since World War II. Directly 8 lives were saved by evacuation, and countless others were saved thanks to their efforts that day.




when I have your wounded...
15:44 June 4, 2011 by Louis Prince
The Germans can take care of themselves, if the Russians attack, well its not like the Americans would actually stand a chance. It will have an effect on the local economies, if the savages leave, but the Germans always see ways to grow economically. The US may consider fixing thier own economy, instead of acting all powerful
21:00 June 4, 2011 by TBurris
The U.S. has the best trained solders in the world for many reasons, and one of them is training. Noise is an unfortunate price some decide to live with. Others decide not to live near a military base.

As we see from the posts here, not all Americans want U.S. bases in Germany, but the strategic importance benefits both the U.S. and Europe. I think we are all lucky that the politicians in Germany understand the importance of this noise.
21:13 June 4, 2011 by MfromUSA
All you have to do is read the posts here, from those who are P!SSED OFF that any German dare complain about the GOLDEN BOY American military, to understand WHY so many Germans dislike Americans. The flippant, arrogant, thinly veiled warnings of imminent doom and catastrophic economic demise, the "fine, I will just take my toys and go home. See how much fun you have then!" comments, and the utter unwillingness to consider the real legitimate issues raised by the persons putting up with endless noise indicates that Americans continue to be self absorbed and immature.

It is embarrassing to be affiliated with the USA, no matter what any American thinks about America being the best country in the world.

When I returned home from Germany I was with much dismay. It was so clearly obvious to me that America is a cheap tinsel town, and has no class and almost no character. The lack of real investment in anything but money, power, right wing politics and born-again religion is about all that America has as a claim to fame anymore. It is also tragic that Americans have no real concept of how socially, morally, and spiritually bankrupt this nation has become.

America buys into superficial displays...and then assumes that the displays fool the rest of the world. Americans, however, ARE fooled by these pathetic displays.
01:00 June 5, 2011 by RedLeg6
Spent the day at a USAFB in the U.S. listening to the sound of freedom. Station a couple B1b's at Katterbach and listen to the locals whine. I'll always remember riding on a train in Germany next to a German college student right after the Berlin Wall came down. He asked me if I thought there was really a need for American soldiers on German soil anymore. Told him I was an ethnic Hessian and 3 of my children were German-born. But as far as I was concerned Germany had started two world wars and should be occupied 'til hell freezes over. End of conversation. And I like and am proud of my ancestral homeland, but....
03:47 June 5, 2011 by thebearjew
Start more world wars/exterminations then cry when the the u.s army flies some helicopters, classic germans.
08:43 June 5, 2011 by MfromUSA
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
09:45 June 5, 2011 by marimay
Wow, MfromUSA, don't give yourself an aneurism.
14:40 June 5, 2011 by TyroneJ
As an American, I think there is no need for the US to maintain bases in the EU at all. Let NATO finally step up to the plate fully. Plus, the billions of dollars per year the US pumps into the EU through these bases could be put to better use at home.
18:48 June 5, 2011 by c12dat
@ MfromUSA


You are an idiot.

You wrote:

the utter unwillingness to consider the real legitimate issues raised by the persons putting up with endless noise indicates that Americans continue to be self absorbed and immature.

You must not have read or comprehend any of the previous postings that indicates there are no "real legitimate issues". The Army aviators are complying with the rules set forth to them. The complainers, apparently 2 who made 1438 out or 1459 noise complaints in March, have an agenda to fill and unfortunately the squeakiest wheel gets the most attention.

Don't like the USA ... well, certainly no one is forcing you you live in the USA. Move elsewhere and revoke your citizenship. Plenty of appreciative immigrants out there looking to fill your slot in the USA. If you need assistance on filing out the departure paper work, please let me know. Will be glad to assist.

Lastly, don't be so angry.
04:03 June 6, 2011 by MfromUSA
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
06:34 June 6, 2011 by marimay

08:52 June 6, 2011 by JBattles916
As a former military policeman who was stationed in Karlsruhe just before the wall came down, I have nothing but the highest respect for the German People. At that time, the US maintained almost 300,000 troops in West Germany alone.

The people were always welcoming and patient as well as hospitable. Rambo attitudes were not tolerated by our chain of command and maybe the battle readniness we maintained helped to keep things in perspective. I was 18 then, I'm 44 now. I still remain friends with some that I made during my time there. The German people worked hard to rebuild following the devastation of the second world war and most Americans that I know including those I've served with, understand that our partnership is based upon mutual respect.

The US is a guest of the German government and people. We are not occupiers and my friends that recently returned from an 8 year duty assignment would never conduct himself as such and neither did he men and women hat I had the pleasure of serving with.

We must respect the wishes of our hosts and should our hosts decide it's time for us to leave, then we should respect that. Western Europe does not face the old threats. It's time we listen to our German, Italian, British allies and go further to take into consideration our Korean and Japanese allies. The stationing of US troops in large numbers in these nations is probably no longer needed.

Let's bring our troops home.

Then we need to consider shifting from offensive military capabilities to a strong defensive posture. For example, do we really need 11 Carrier battle groups (which don't even include Marine Assault Carriers with Harrier Jump Jets)???

Maybe, maybe not. But as a nation we need to recognize we are not fighting the Cold War any longer. Alliances such as NATO is a relic that has served it's purpose but is no longer needed.


09:12 June 6, 2011 by Gilly58
MfromUsa...you are probably a nice person at heart...you are simply just on the wrong planet.
10:05 June 6, 2011 by HistoryProffessor
-MFromUSA, Check this out guy. I think you have a bit of an attitude problem. You have what I like to call the cry baby syndrome. You complain and complain, yet you, yourself, more than likely do not do anything to help make a change. First off I would like to say that most people, like 90% of the world atleast (that¦#39;s just a made up number) has some kind of pride to place in which they are born or hold their citizenship. For example. If I was Norwegian, I would have Norwegian Pride or If I was North Korean, I would have North Korean Pride. You, Sir, Have zero pride, for self, for country, and more than likely your family as well (I pitty them) Let me ask you something. When was the last time you made a difference or tried to make a difference in the country you live? When was the last time you picked up a pen and paper and wrote your congressman? When was the last time you started an NPO incorporated to start a movement or make a change? Probably never. When was the last time you attended a political convention or a town hall meeting? These things make differences. When was the last time you started a class action lawsuit against your own state to instigate a legislative change. More than likely the answer is never. Gain a little bit of pride, in yourself, your country and community. Instead of jumping ship, change it to what you think it should be. Its possible. But it takes time. Slavery, segregation, child labor, all these things went away because someone decided it was something worth fighting against. Do the same. Instead of wasting time on here doing nothing but spewing hatred and upsetting people. But if you wont do the things I suggest and just want to continue bringing yourself and others down down by writing hateful things then go ahead. But be satisfied with the status quo. Quite frankly you are just another arrogant @sshole yourself. I just wont dignify you with the addition of the word American.
15:12 June 6, 2011 by Gilly58
Hey HP...well said, perhaps ChrisRea can drive himself and MfUSA home for Christmas...
16:10 June 6, 2011 by MfromUSA
@HistortProfessor.......check this out!

You have what I call arrogant American @SSHOLE syndrome.

Since you want to force the issue, I guess that I will have to talk somewhat about how I have acted upon my convictions and have made a difference. However, so as not to identify myself, I will need to be somewhat vague.

FIRST, let me tell you that I do, in fact, have an advanced degree, so your comments re. stupid are actually stupid. I also might tell you that when participating in research regarding moral and ethical development my level of those two measurements is at the 99%+ level, hence my ongoing issues with those who engage in the types of harmful and destructive behaviors that military and capitalists engage in.

I will tell you that I have held positions in the government whereby I was able to implement policy that directly and immediately held individuals, who are guilty of violence toward humanity, to a level of accountability not previously seen. This was accomplished despite rabid resistance from those who wanted to maintain the status quo. I have also engaged in my share of class action challenges to the abusive and damaging behavior of agencies that violate the rights of people. I also have provided pro bono education to many hundreds of individuals; education that has allowed them to make radical change in their lives and subsequent wellbeing.

I put my money where my mouth is and provide the equivalent of the salary of two median income American families toward providing for the care and life saving treatments of those who are ignored by our shameful greedy capitalist country. With regard to my family, I have assisted numerous family members improve the quality of their lives, not only by providing financial support when that was necessary but also by challenging them to address the types of issues I bring to you and others.

I have received numerous commendations for exceptional work in my field, and have been identified by regulatory agencies as a person whose design and work needs to be implemented throughout an entire system. I have frequently been sought out by employers, and have only once, at the outset of my career,ever actually had to apply for a job.

So, there you have it. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, or better yet put it in your gun and shoot it.

Address the REAL issues, bonehead..........you will do much to improve the reputation of America if you do so.

I still plan to leave this sewer pit..........I won't invest my time and energy here anymore. There are far too many people like yourself here.

Also..........done posting on this issue. i have been clear, blunt, and honest. Take it or leave it.
16:45 June 6, 2011 by marimay
The grass is always greener on the other side.
19:30 June 6, 2011 by c12dat
angry ... angry ... angry

Best of wishes to you MfromUSA .... soon to be M"once from"USA
10:51 June 7, 2011 by frankiep

I commend you.

The hateful and childish PERSONAL attacks which Gilly58, HistoryProffessor, and c12dat have responded to you with just go to prove the point you (and I) are trying to make. Don't dare criticize the USA or you will be quickly pounced upon by the Arrogant American A$$hole Brigade with insults and bloviation about how the US, and the US military by extension, is sole reason for everything good in the world - from ensuring that you have air to breathe and food to eat, to securing a perimeter to allow the sun to safely rise every morning.

Like I said earlier, I was born and raised in America, although I was the first in my family born outside of Europe. I spent close to a decade in the US army and was, like everyone else in the military (and, come to think of it, even those who were never in the military), bombarded with non-stop propaganda about how the US is the greatest country in the history of the world, how every other country is full of nothing more than wretched simpletons who all pray every night for a chance to move to America, and that the US military and its members are infallible entities to be worshiped. And of course you know the old saying that if you tell a captive audience something loud enough and long enough that they will eventually accept it as the unquestionable truth despite increasing evidence to the contrary.

And of course, as you already stated, the evidence is there for all to see.

A culture in which casual and random acts of violence are glorified and imitated.

Entire cities and towns which would be considered third world if they were located anywhere else.

Out of control police departments and a law enforcement culture that is becoming more and more blatant everyday in its disdain towards ordinary citizens.

An infrastructure system that is crumbling yet which is rarely maintained or improved because spending money on things such as safe roads, bridges, and railways will not yield an immediate cash profit. Unbelievable short-sightedness.

A news media which is the laughingstock of much of the world.

etc., etc., etc....

Of course, the standard reply to all of this is usually something like "well, if you don't like it you can always leave and go to North Korea or Iran" to which I always say: first, I did leave (and moved to Germany) and have absolutely no plans on ever going back - and second, I wouldn't go around claiming that you live in the greatest country in the history of the world if your comparison is someplace like North Korea or Iran.

There it is.
12:53 June 7, 2011 by Cayle
@frankiep -

Before accusing people of hateful and childish personal attacks, read back through the whole thread. HistoryProffessor, and c12dat in particular both started off with reasoned explanations of the flight rules at Katterbach. From his first post, MfromUSA was in full on "US Military Personnel are baby killers" mode. I think that they should be given some credit for first trying to hold a point/counterpoint debate before losing patience.

@MfromUSA -

>I also might tell you that when participating in research regarding moral and ethical development my level of those two measurements is at the 99%+ level, hence my ongoing issues with those who engage in the types of harmful and destructive behaviors that military and capitalists engage in.

Wow! You are not really serious, are you? In my experience, the people most self assured of their own moral and ethical superiority are the same ones most likely to lack empathy.

@All -

Everyone involved should take an overnight break before posting their next reply. It is pretty clear that emotions are high.
20:17 June 7, 2011 by De Lucca
Fact: Nobody should disrespect the law, doesn't matter where you are. We can all forget this civilization fallacy if we decide to ignore that.

Yes, Russia defeated Germany, USA protected Germany for a long time and probably most of people in this planet hate USA. Even if that's the truth, what's the point here?

I will say it again: Nobody should brake the law. Everything else is ignorance and stupidity.
22:24 June 7, 2011 by c12dat
Greetings frankiep,

Sir, I really have nothing against anyone making comments on this forum. However on this topic, most folks go off track and detour toward politics.

I am an Army pilot and have served over 12 years in Germany. Logged lot of hours of which 1500 hrs in helicopters over Germany. Landed at Katterbach a few times myself... still have no clue on why we kept that base open and close down Giebelstadt or Kitzingen.

Anyway, I used to carry my own set of maps with detailed routes of visual fly rule corridors that include info such as direction of flight and altitude of each leg for take off and landing for all airfield that I regularly fly to... that is in addition of other regulatory publications from the US Army and the German government. Again, I don't make these flight corridors or flight rules, I only follow them. I can tell you that most military aviators are professionals and we go out of our way to do the right thing.

Personally, I don't like to fly over people houses or densely populated area not because I am a nice guy, but in case of an emergency, I can save my aircraft, my crew, my passengers and my own ass by landing in a nice flat area. Dang, I let out the secret didn't I? Next time you hear of a pilot being called a hero for diverting his stricken aircraft from a school yard full of little children, the maneuver is mostly due to self preservation.

You can read the political agenda in the posting listed above that has nothing to do with the noise complaints of a few German citizens. People here are making comments without knowing all of the facts. Even you make a comment about attack helicopters flying over people houses at 0200AM; which is not correct. You read the info on this article, but you don't realize that 0200AM is the time that all aircraft must be shut down completely, even the auxiliary power unit must be shut down. Therefore it is impossible to conduct a training flight over someone house at 0200. Now, in order to fly outside the agreed upon time period, we must submit request through the German government for approval; and that is not easily done.

Now to M"once from"USA, not only went off track toward politics, but went off the deep end. My opinion is that he/she is an idiot. Ranting and raving over something that has no bearing on this topic.
23:41 June 7, 2011 by willowsdad
It should be mentioned somewhere on here that the US power structure is only in favor of allies taking on a bigger role if that role is under US leadership. Not as equals, but subordinates.

Imagine Washington's reaction if Germany, or a combined EU force, intervened someplace (let's make it really interesting and say Palestine) without Uncle Sam's permission.
03:00 June 8, 2011 by wenddiver
@Willowsdad- Great idea then Germany will have lost the last three big wars instead of the last two. Trust me I've seen the intensity of training in the Bundeswehr and the IDF. Be glad the Americans are defending you. The IDF pretty much handles their own defence except for a few US Anti-missile batteries every now and then. You must be a goofy arab to even make such a stupid idea public.
09:28 June 8, 2011 by Gilly58

you really are a plonker...you should read the whole thread as Cayle points out before you join the band wagon of negative crap. M once from usa made her own bed and will now have to lay in it, and good luck to him/her in his/her choice of alternative country of residence. The facts are that sending state forces have a right to train as stipulated in the NATO SOFA agreement. And train they must in order to save lives, who knows, one day it could even be yours.
06:51 June 10, 2011 by choppradam579
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
23:52 June 10, 2011 by c12dat
Greetings choppradam579,

By no means am I a spoke person for the US Army; that position is the PAO.

I see members of the forum making comments about the article without all the facts, so I direct them to the the sourse that they can read for themselves about the flight regulations for US Army aircrew in Germany. I stayed on topic of this news article with is about noise complaints.

Other members started to make this issue into a political one and in doing so digress into personal opinions; which is fine with me, but we can't debate or discuss a topic based on opinions.

Now, with regards to your comments above, how did you link the issue of 2 German citizens making 1438 out or 1459 noise complaints in March has anything to do with "actions by the international community to label both father and son war criminal?" This an article on noise complaints.

If you have an anti-US or anti-military agenda, then go to the proper Local article to post your comments.

BTW, I don't think that neither President Bush '41 or President Bush '43 are losing any sleep over the possibility of being lable as war criminals. You must certainly be kidding. Have your heard of what they have been called here in our country by our fair share of village idiots.

You must not have read M"once from the"USA comment prior to it being deleted by the moderators. If you had, you would have also concluded that he/she is an idiot.
03:03 June 11, 2011 by willowsdad
Wenddiver: wrong on all counts. I'm American. Just not one who stakes his self-esteem on nationalistic arrogance.

BTW, my point was that Washington would foam at the mouth if any ally truly acted independently.
01:25 June 13, 2011 by Bierlieber
Bavarians are concerned about the wrong noise. Antenne Bayern is the real noise polluter! German radio is garbage.
09:12 June 29, 2011 by MfromUSA
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
16:00 July 8, 2011 by HistoryProffessor
MFromUSA you are like that floating turd that wont go down the toilet
08:50 July 14, 2011 by heyheyhey
c12dat and History Professor

The two of you are a couple of louses. You know, those disgusting little vermin that stick in your scalp and suck your blood.

You got put in your place by several posters and you don't like it.

You don't like reality being thrown at your face like the pile of stench laden crap that it is. Reality is that you and your pals insist that the local support your version of reality. you get them to exclude comments by persons who call the US military what it is. it is a group of baboons who like to beat their chest, shoot their guns, raise hell, keep people awake at night while you play your silly-assed war games, and shoot innocents. How many times will the likes of you be excused by the international courts? The people who survive your heinous attacks should go after you, until they get you. Much of the world hates you. You are crap. You are human excrement. You have a stench about you. You smell of death and decay.
10:48 February 5, 2012 by Yah right
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
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