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Teens arrested for brutal metro attack

The Local · 16 Feb 2011, 15:00

Published: 16 Feb 2011 15:00 GMT+01:00

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The police took the teens, three aged 17 and one only 14, into custody on Tuesday under suspicion they assaulted a 30-year-old house painter in a U-Bahn station in the German capital’s Lichtenberg district.

The teenagers allegedly attacked the victim and his coworker late on Friday evening. While one man could escape with minor injuries, the other was beaten and kicked so badly he remains in a coma with serious brain trauma.

Berlin’s Interior Minister Ehrhart Körting said on Wednesday he was shocked by the sheer brutality of the crime.

The teens, reportedly with Albanian, Kenyan, Kosovar and Iraqi backgrounds, claimed the painter and his colleague had provoked them by chanting the Nazi salute “Sieg Heil” at them. However, the authorities said they believe this is likely only an attempt to justify the attack after speaking to witnesses.

The assailants reportedly do not have previous criminal records, but are likely to be charged with attempted murder and causing grievous bodily harm.

The authorities also lamented the apparent cowardice of bystanders for not trying to stop the attack.

"Particularly shocking for us is that during the attack several people walked by without helping," an investigator told Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel.

Even worse, the police are investigating the possibility an unknown witness stole the victim's jacket as he lay unconscious on the U-Bahn platform.

Story continues below…

The beating is reminiscent of an incident in Munich in 2009 that led to the death of Dominik Brunner. Two German teens beat and kicked the 50-year-old businessman at an S-Bahn commuter train platform after he tried to protect a group of younger children from their bullying. Brunner died shortly afterwards of heart failure.

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The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

18:24 February 16, 2011 by JensS
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:25 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:28 February 16, 2011 by Clapoti
I'm just speechless... because of the brutality of this story and because of the racist comment by "theartofwar".
18:37 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:42 February 16, 2011 by Clapoti
Because you say that multiculturalism in German is dismantling the fabric of the society... I think that a lot of immigrants are bringing lots of good things to Germany. You always have some bad apples coming in, but you also have lots of bad German apples already here.
18:48 February 16, 2011 by frankiep
Multiculturalism is a lie. A dangerous lie.

If you want to emigrate to another country that's fine, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But that means that you take it upon yourself to integrate into the already established culture of your host nation. Multiculturalism is the idiotic belief that a society can exist in peace without a common culture to bind it together.
18:50 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar
Please, spare me from your bull...., I live in Germany too!
19:06 February 16, 2011 by So36
I'm with you Clapoti - incidents as heinous as this should not be used to trot out personal prejudices.
19:15 February 16, 2011 by frankiep
And, your point is?

I live here to. But you know what. When I made the conscious decision to move here I did it knowing full well that I was going to be entering a new culture, different from the one I was used to, and that it was my responsibility to integrate into it, and not their responsibility to adapt to the way I was used to doing things. This means that I don't consider it a reason to be outraged or pissed when I don't find a particular brand product that I used to find easily in the past. This means that always speak German, the national language, when I am out and about and don't consider it an insult or sign of disrespect when things aren't in my native language. This means that I am essentially still a guest here (and will continue to be so unless I become a German citizen) and that, as a guest, it is not right to expect my hosts to change their culture and way of life to accommodate me, but that it IS expected that I integrate.

So you can call it bull if you want.....but it doesn't change the fact that multiculturalism is a lie.
19:23 February 16, 2011 by germinator
by the logic of some of the commenters here, I guess one could also conclude that driving a truck causes incest.
19:32 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar

Why don't you read my comments first and see to whom I was talking to?


So what you saying? That multiculturalism in germany or anywhere else in europe is perfectly well and harmonious? That we are not allow to criticise it? That we should shut our mouths and take it? Your argument is old and boring. The germans will see this and I can tell that their hearts are starting to become harden.
19:44 February 16, 2011 by marimay
Yeah, yeah, german kids don't do bad things.

German kids that do bad things in other countries means that country's multiculturalism is a fail too?

19:45 February 16, 2011 by So36
What I'm saying is asshats abound and most asshattery is caused by people's socio-economic backgrounds and not their ethnicity.
20:32 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar
Just show me a country that where the german refugees doing bad things please? These stupid people think that they can just throw anything out there without having to back it up, arn't they?


OK professor, we heard that bull before, so please, spare us from your lefty talking point wannabe bull...t, ok?
20:53 February 16, 2011 by fryintl
Multi-culturalism is a lie. It can't work if the objective is to have stable culture based societies and nation states. If the objective is to destroy the identity of a nation, and break down stability, it is a success.
21:03 February 16, 2011 by jocey

I can't agree with you anymore.
21:07 February 16, 2011 by DinhoPilot
Since when does Multiculturism has anything to do with brutal violence acts?! Weird when people try to use everything to spread their propaganda! This article also refers to a cause where german teens did the same? Was cause they were from a different state (thus different culture!)???!!! Weirdos!
21:16 February 16, 2011 by marimay
Super weirdos!
21:58 February 16, 2011 by dusturn
"But that means that you take it upon yourself to integrate into the already established culture of your host nation. Multiculturalism is the idiotic belief that a society can exist in peace without a common culture to bind it together." > That's right, but do you know any place where attacking a men to coma is a cultural ritual?

"by the logic of some of the commenters here, I guess one could also conclude that driving a truck causes incest." > nice one.

"most asshattery is caused by people's socio-economic backgrounds and not their ethnicity." ... "OK professor, we heard that bull before, so please, spare us from your lefty talking point wannabe bull...t, ok?" > @theartofwar You should hear it all the time cause that's not bull, it's just the way things are!

Does this subject has anything to do with multiculturalism? I would say, just a lot hell indirectly! Arguing that one should avoid it is mere short-sigh. EDUCATION is the base for any german or non-german person, everywhere in the world! With it comes tolerance and respect.
22:13 February 16, 2011 by Mohamed_hs90
@ theartofwar

first.. yes as you said , multiculturalism have failed in Germany , but yet it can be fixed as anything which have failed before. and the idea of multiculturalism in not a lie, and my proof for this is USA which is the number one country on the world now and it is the main example of multiculturalism. another example is Canada which is successful too and they depend mainly on immigration

second .. the article refers to a German man killed by German teens who were also bullying another teenagers. so such vicious incidents do not happen only because of the failure of multiculturalism in Germany as u said
22:25 February 16, 2011 by BrainWave19
I guess the main topic is being mishandled. We talk about the German law and order situation being the best in Europe compared to the other EU neighbours. Then how come the bystanders were watching and no one even called the Polizei to inform that a man is being beaten up by 4 youths. This has nothing to do with Multiculturism. USA/Canada is full of that too. The main issue is the basic society is getting more apprehensive of supporting a fellow citizen, who is in trouble. If the general public decided to intervene then the 4 youths would not have dared to do what they did. So guys, instead of personalised fights over this forum, help to raise the public awareness to keep the German reputation intact of being a safe nation irrespective of race and immigration status.
22:33 February 16, 2011 by Godelhausens
Perhaps Mr. Theartofwar should move to Jamel. They welcome like minded residents.

While German industry was booming, we welcomed the cheap labor that Turkey afforded us and hired interpreters in our factories so they would not need to learn German and, God forbid, stay once we were done with them. Now we hold every immigrant responsible for every thing wrong with German society.
22:50 February 16, 2011 by none-of-your-fukkin-business!
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
23:09 February 16, 2011 by Lachner
What upsets me the most about this incident is the fact that four attackers were assaulting an innocent victim and no one there had the courage to aid them. What a bunch of cowards!
23:24 February 16, 2011 by theartofwar

First of, those are not german teens!!! Yes, there are very few germans doing some bad things, but we can't send them anywhere can we? Because they are germans, so we have to live with that. But, we don't have to live with these..........., you understand?

Second, nobody said all immigrants are bad, it depends on where they coming from...and can they be able to integrate? Are they willing to work?

third, USA? are you kidding? it's about to turn into another mexico or brazil if it's lucky. As for canada, Canada was a white country 20 years ago. it was multicultural alright, but multicultural of whites. Now, it's going to follow usa!
23:33 February 16, 2011 by roboni
Everyone totally forgot about the crime and jumped on the race bandwagon. hmmm
23:35 February 16, 2011 by BrianS
I live in Canada.Everynight on the NEWS ethnic street gangs kill! again and again.........Germany opens its doors to them,this is the thanks they get.After they get out of jail DEPORT them!
00:01 February 17, 2011 by danclarkie

Your racist, bigoted and xenophobic views have no place in my country.

I say my country as it is my country, I am a foreigner living here, working here and paying taxes here. So i feel as entitled as the next person to call it my country.

Not so long ago Englishmen like me, of my age, fell to their deaths from burning aircraft all over Europe, fighting for the freedoms you seek to openly desecrate.

"there are very few germans doing some bad things, but we can't send them anywhere can we? Because they are germans, so we have to live with that. But, we don't have to live with these" in particular fills me with despair and anger.

Its highly likely that German teens walked past this even unfolding and didn't intervene. I hope that answers your question. "Just show me a country that where [sic] the german refugees doing [sic] bad things please? [sic]"

it puts me in mind of "First they came…"

I wish a fast recovery to the victim and for the course of justice to be carried out swiftly and fairly.
00:07 February 17, 2011 by surayatrue
It also could be happen, that some german people are very violent in their behaviours. If they don`t have a good start in their childhood, in the early years and when the parents suffer from addiction, should the only question be:

What happen with children who grow up in a enviroment, where only lack of everything exist..

Also other suffer under a lack of education, love and happiness. Thats the real reason, nothing else.

But some foreigner live in their own world and aren`t able to change this. They don`t realize, that there is a differnt country, with differnt rules. I mean for example:

Men and Women are the same, you have to learn the language, you have to fit on the country, you have to live like a german....

What is interesting on the report, the old pattern:

The victims have the boys called: Nazi.

That works ever, also after 60 years. I hope i must not feel guilty, because im from germany. That is a lie from the culprit, but transparent!
01:43 February 17, 2011 by theartofwar

You surely can make me laugh englishman. Havn't seen the polls lately have you? It's the narrow-minded like you that have no place in germany! It's the narrow-minded like you that fills me with despair and anger! So let me ask you this englishman...are you going to kick Angela Merkel out of germany too? Because she said not long ago that "multiculturalism has utterly fail"? So now the germans don't have the right to talk freely about their country anymore? I can see that multiculturalism has worked out so well in the UK...right english? I mean if i'm not mistaking just last week David Cameron said almost the same thing about multiculturalism as Angela Merkel did...am i wrong? besides, racist means you hate someone because of their race, but have no taste of certain culture or religion it calls freedom of expression, you got that...english?
01:51 February 17, 2011 by Mattj70
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
02:50 February 17, 2011 by Talonx

That you would argue that being a professor is a bad thing shows you for what you are. You are an anti-intellectual that would rather be a contrarian than attempt to understand any subject beyond his grasp. And I'm sure you'll do the same with my attempt to educate you, but at least I'll know I did my best.

Here are the documented facts you need to deal with

1.) Socioeconomic status is a larger factor than ethnic background in determining crime, health, education, etc...

2.) Angela Merkel declaring multiculturalism as failed is unsurprising when she did her best to make it so by completely ignoring the immigration issue in Germany for her entire time in office. This is a bit like a wolf declaring that a shepard does a poor job protecting his sheep.

3.) This article, as much as you would like it to be, is not about points 1.) or 2.), but rather it is about a crime that was commited in Berlin by 4 kids against an adult. Further, this crime should be understood in context, that is, stuff like this does not happen very often in Germany, and it's scary that nobody jumped in to try and help out. Let's try and keep it what it is instead of plugging anti-intellectual xenophobic theories into the mess, or you could be an ass, your choice.
05:09 February 17, 2011 by NotTheSameGermany
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
07:45 February 17, 2011 by toemag
What amazes me the CCTV coverage was used to catch the criminals, now if it had been monitored CCTV they could have sent the police to intervene before things had got to out of hand.....

Some people are just to PC, opinions as diverse as they may be should be welcome, and calling someone a racist doesn't and won't help the victim.

just my €0,02 worth
09:27 February 17, 2011 by narfmaster
Hi everyone,

I'm quite amazed that everyone here has missed the elephant in the room. This poor German guy was beat up by 4 foreign kids, sure, but the kids were from Albania, Kenya, Kosovo and Iraq! If that isn't multiculturalism, I don't know what is!

And isn't it odd that they were together? I mean, they don't have a common language, culture, or even ethnicity. The ONLY thing they have in common is that they are NOT German. Any normal kids would be playing with other kids who are into skateboards or hiking or whatever. These kids should be with German kids of similar interest. Why is that not so? Because they didn't learn the language? No. These kids don't share a mother tongue, so they must be speaking German to each other. Kids more than anything want to belong to part of a larger group. These different cultures were pushed together because they were ostracized by the German kids, and they are obviously pretty upset about it.

@theartofwar: Do you think your negative attitude towards foreigners makes German children more or less likely to play with foreign kids? My point is that these kids were not allowed to integrate even though they wanted to. That part wasn't their fault. For this reason, they made one innocent German pay for the crimes of many anti-foreigner Germans. And they did it with multiculturalism.

You can of course still tell your German kids that foreigners are the causes of all your problems. You can even try to deport all foreigners. But of course then you lose all of the advantages of having them here. Where I live in Saxony, all of the new tech startups are run by foreigners. Americans, Dutch, Canadian, British, etc. That always confused me as I couldn't understand why. But I understand it now. All of the Germans with the skills to run companies have left Saxony to make money in Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich in companies that already exist. They know they don't have to work as hard as in a startup and are assured a good wage. That leaves no one in Saxony with the skills to start a company. Instead, foreigners who end up there because of family or through other circumstance find they are in the area but can't work in their field because the companies just don't exist. So they start them and provide jobs and training for the less skilled Germans who live there. The government knows this and in most places tries to make the area as friendly to foreigners as possible. But a lot of Germans still don't understand this.

I guess what I'm saying is that it is up to you. Tell your children that foreigners are people too so the violence ends or you can ship them all out and stay poor. You decide, it's your country.
10:03 February 17, 2011 by freechoice
integration doesn't work in Germany?

back to the drawing board...
10:16 February 17, 2011 by Talonx

Kudos, but you're assuming good faith on the part of too many people here. I'm sure the explanation will come, 'but those are different foreigners'.
10:34 February 17, 2011 by marimay
narfmaster is right.
10:43 February 17, 2011 by LiberalGuy

well said..

On another note I see all of theartofwar's comments have been removed. Does anyone have an explaination for this? Does the Local remove users they feel are too inflamatory?? Just curious.. The same thing happen to another user last week.

And on another note. How many NDP, or neo nazi affilated users use this site?? I hope it's zero, but some of the comments really make me wonder. And no I'm not suggesting anyone who raises an opinion on the pro's of an anti immigration stance is a nazi.
10:55 February 17, 2011 by Talonx

The local attempts to keep the flames out, specifically racism.

As for Nazis, I'd say it's likely given that many posters are from the U.K. and U.S., countries which have per capita, a much greater rate of neo-nazi activity than Germany.
11:21 February 17, 2011 by LiberalGuy

Thanks for clearing that up.

That is an interesting point you make about the nazi's. I never really considered that aspect.
12:30 February 17, 2011 by LecteurX
You would have thought that since the Kristallnacht of 1938, people would know better than to hold a whole group of people / community / nationality / religion responsible for the bad actions (interestingly, it's always the bad actions) of individuals.

But no - regardless of millions of law-abiding, hardworking, decent foreigners who help build Germany's economy EVERY DAY and make no headlines for it, just wait until one single event is remotely connected with "foreigners" and here we go again.

This is a truly tragic event, I hope the poor man will recover from his injuries, whatever he did or did not do to these kids, and justice will be made.
15:07 February 17, 2011 by Joshontour
@ TheLocal,

I think the removal of certain comments, whether inflammatory or not, is a violation of Article 5 of Germany's Grundgesetz.

Please respond.
16:01 February 17, 2011 by mehta_p
violance is never good and it happens in each country.

It is NOT like that only foreigners do violant stuffs here and germans keep studying, working and playing around.

So it is not about the 'inegration', 'multiculturism' or whatever like this.

jst one more violating incident from teenagers happened here....

chill out guys....
18:40 February 17, 2011 by thedeliver
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
19:30 February 17, 2011 by Dougbal01
Guys this has nothing to do with multiculturalism, but barbaric activities. I am not German, I work here, studied here and love all my German friends and discuss everything I can with them. Worse, there will always be criminals and they come from Everywhere. I might say that Europeans who went to Africa where also criminal and they are from here, but some have integrated well. This is the world and it has its own ways to work things out. Racist, etc, will always exist and this was just pure stupidity.
01:52 February 18, 2011 by musash9
I find it strange how "The authorities" can say

"The authorities also lamented the apparent cowardice of bystanders for not trying to stop the attack."

After they know about this case

"The beating is reminiscent of an incident in Munich in 2009 that led to the death of Dominik Brunner.Two German teens beat and kicked the 50-year-old businessman at an S-Bahn commuter train platform ***after he tried to protect*** a group of younger children "

This is why people don't get involved any more ! give the public some slack. or more powers to intervene.
08:32 February 18, 2011 by Johnne
narfmaster for Chanzler! this is what I call a consturctive and intelligent contribution.
08:49 February 18, 2011 by Talonx

The local is not the German government, they are a PRIVATE business. Just like you, they get to decide what constitutes harassing posts on their pages.
10:37 February 18, 2011 by sevenlights7
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
11:47 February 18, 2011 by thedeliver
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
13:18 February 18, 2011 by Gaffers
Typical. Because the youths were not German this is a problem of "multiculturalism ! No it isn't but unfortunately the predjudiced and racist will use the opportunity to claim that forgetting, conveniently the attack in Munich by GERMAN youths that killed an innocent man. Ignoring conveniently the football rioting last week in Hamburg. In fact ignoring ANY incident that doesn't serve their racist cause.

There was senseless violence before immigration and there will be senseless violence if it disappeared overnight.

Violence can be carried out be anyone and will be. It is related more to social status than race.

Thankfully the stupid racist comments on here are not representative of decent Germans. Just a minority of brain dead morons who don't have the brain power to think for themselves.
15:23 February 18, 2011 by booker
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
18:55 February 18, 2011 by Dinaricman
Please do not label all foreigners as one. We Croats do not act like this in Germany and thank Germany for her support during our war of independence. If I were on that platform those youths would not have been so lucky believe me.
19:08 February 18, 2011 by queen1976
@gaffer i totally agree with what you said. there is good and bad everywhere in this world. what those youths did was totally wrong and unjustified i dont even care if the victims were making racist remarks its still no excuse.

they are grown enough to know right and wrong and they could have just walked away.
19:48 February 18, 2011 by Talonx
@ Booker

GAFFERS didn't violate the locals terms of posting, the others did.

If you want to be a part of this board you need to learn the rules or get out and go back where you came from. Your kind's not welcome here, you're grammatically and semiotically inferior stock.
20:44 February 18, 2011 by kentchap
Don't understand why people have to bring in issues like race, nationality and ethnic group of the people involved whenever something like this happens.

@danclarkie and @narfmaster

Nicely and eloquently said, guys! You show a lot of humanity and speak the truth.


If I was to lower myself and use the only language people like you understand, I would say: "Next time we come back here we'll never leave and teach you all the manners and humanity you are lacking".

If you don't like foreigners, why are you hanging around toytown? We are all foreign here, most of us respecting the Anglo-Saxon tradition of tolerance, openness and human compassion. And we are proud of that. Go hang around with your Nazi mates, there's no room for people like you here!
00:18 February 19, 2011 by kentchap
@ elitist

I really don't understand what has your little anti-immigration speech got to do with the story.

Four kids have done something despicable and should be held responsible for what they did according to the German law, which should be the same for Germans or immigrants.

What if these kids were born here and are German citizens? Are you going to have them "sent home permanently"? What if home for them is Germany? Or just because their parents were from somewhere else, they should be treated differently?

And I wouldn't take people like Merkel, Sarkozy or Cameron as role models when it comes to consistency, moderation and honesty.

Only a few years ago, during the Football World Cup 2006 Merkel was orgasming over how the German football squad was a vivid example of how well multiculturalism was working in Germany. Now, when the populace is baying for foreigner blood, she made the full U-turn. When was she right and when was she lying?

Enough of listening to closet racist and xenophobes trying to dress up their bigoted views in the mantle of respectability.
01:34 February 19, 2011 by A South African Lady
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
01:57 February 19, 2011 by kentchap
@ A South African Lady

If I was to follow your reasoning to the last consequence, I would conclude that, in this case, physical violence and murder are part of the culture and perfectly acceptable among the general population in Albania, Kenya, Kosovo and Iraq, which is utter nonsense.

I am very wary of people trying to apply Darwinism and the law of natural selection to human society. Some people in this very country tried that kind of social engineering not such a long time ago with terrible consequences for millions of innocent human beings.

What is the solution you are suggesting to sort this pseudo-problem some would like us to believe is real? With all due respect, you have already tried it in your country until 1989. It was called apartheid.

It is incredible how easily people forget and start repeating the same mistakes!
14:10 February 19, 2011 by dr.makni49
Adding tinge of 'multiculturalism' is like adding spice to the debate otherwise it is simply an offence on part of teens that could occur anywhere and between anyone in the world. Why teens acted so furiously, is the core question, investigators would come up with an answer. The first reason teens gave about the victim's bashing is not convincing.

Some have brought in Muslims factor and labelled them as those who do not integrate or integrate poorly. If native people keep writing like this, then certainly Muslims would be scared off and at certain point of time might find survival difficult and leave voluntarily. Some unpleasant memories are still not a distant past. That is what explains cultures' backward journey. Question is, are you ready to face such a contingency.

I am an advocate of mutual cultural respect and expect Muslims to respect law of the country they reside in and European sensibilities. I am at always ease to acknowledge that the West is remarkably tolerant towards minorities. Thus the minorities must pay back with equal if not exceeding good will. I have recently broached on similar subject, www.drmakni.wordpress, pointing out Muslims' failure. See," Muslims' Compassion and Tolerance towards Other Religions---A Strategic Deficit? Peace--Tolerance--Mutual Respect are to be the panacea.
15:27 February 19, 2011 by Bruno53
Permissiveness caused this tragedy. Maybe we shoudl go back to the old ways of rearing kids.
17:27 February 19, 2011 by Talonx
@ Bruno53

At least some of us are staying on point, I think that you definately have part of the equation right there. Though I would also add that I think the permissiveness comes about de facto in some cases given the amount of time that low socioeconomic status kids are forced to spend by themselves.

@ Elitist

Your arguments are confused, you are implicitly claiming all sorts of things about the background of these kids. For all you know they could be raised in German homes as orphans. It is that that gets you the label you well deserve 'xenophobe' (i.e. afraid of the outsider/ foreigner/ alien).

You don't get some sort of free pass to make assuming and xenophobic comments without criticism, because of your ancestry (this is the only reason you seem to have mentioned this), nor do you get a free pass because you are sensibly-minded when it comes to other issues (homosexuality and women's rights).

I suggest you analyze your statements more carefully as well as the facts on the ground as presented in these articles. I do not believe you have honestly done that. Additionally, I would suggest analyzing your basic assumptions about poor immigrants, 'taking advantage/ parasitizing the system', economic statistics, concerning rates of fraud, will tell you that you are looking at the wrong end of the socioeconomic spectrum if you are trying to weed out parasites. Finally, I would like to reemphasize what others have already said, the problem with 'send them home' is that the same cannot be applied to those who are already citizens, this is, therefore, not a humane or ethically consistent practice.
21:34 February 19, 2011 by kentchap
@ elitist

Talonx is perfectly right in what he said. For a (I dare say without much fear of being wrong) not - so - progressive intellectual like you, the logic of your reasoning is seriously lacking. And I will say why:

1) You make all sort of assumptions about the socio-economic background and even mental health status of these kids. Psychotic? Have you spoken to any of them? Are you a psychiatrist that has assessed their mental health now? You assume that their families are on welfare, sponging the system financed by good people like you or the victim of the attack. How do you know that this is true? Have you checked? All your assertions related to how these kids and their families (about whom you have zero info about) fit in the German society are solely based on your prejudice that anyone or, in the best case, most people coming from outside Western Europe (Eastern European, Middle Eastern, African) are very likely to be, as you said "perverted, sadistic, retarded psychotics who stomp peoples heads in to alleviate the boredom of their futile existences, collect welfare harvested from the wages of their victims, and claimed to be oppressed". How did you jump to these conclusions when the only facts you had were the ethnic background of the perpetrators, what they did and claimed as motivation for their attack? If this doesn't make you pass with flying colours the xenophobe and a racist test, I don't know what does! Frankly, no one of good faith could see any difference between someone making the kind of statements you make and someone claiming that Jews are greedy, dirty, degenerate vermin and parasites sucking the vitality of the host nation and giving nothing in return, for instance.

2) please don't mention the fact that you are immigrant yourself and a champion of gay and women rights. Pim Fortuyn was also queer as a Christmas tree and an obnoxious xenophobe, anti-Muslim and anti-migrant at the same time. One thing does not exclude the other - thank you Talonx for making the point first.

3) In one of your previous postings you keep talking about America being such a successful immigrant nation and right at the end you slip into the other extreme and mention your European friends asking you about the high levels of violence in the US and you suggest that it's due to the non-desirable immigrants ("NOW THEY KNOW"). I suppose you still haven't made up your mind which way you see the integration of immigrants in America yet. The scary thing is, you are using your trademark sloppy logic to demonise whole ethnic and religious communities in Europe.

PS On a personal note, I find rather irritating your use of capitals and the theatrical ending of your postings. You might have a PhD, claim that your are an intellectual (and a progressive one on top of that) before launching a tirade that would make Dr. Goebbels jealous, like to be a bit stuck up when preaching - just come off it!
02:07 February 20, 2011 by kentchap

Firstly, please moderate your language when you are addressing me. I have made no remarks on your literacy and numeracy or lack thereof and I kindly ask you to reciprocate.

Secondly, I had no bloody idea that you were gay or Jewish until you mentioned it and I am absolutely positive that you cannot accuse me of gay bashing.

Thirdly, I really don't understand why you're living under the impression that you're winning this argument. I say it again - 4 kids committed a horrible crime, they were from Albania, Kosovo, Iraq and Kenya (haven't heard of that much violence in this particular country recently but never mind). From here to your violent anti-Muslim outburst, you cannot logically bridge the gap. Btw, only 10% of the population in Kenya is Muslim and most likely the Kenyan boy is not Muslim. So how does your sweeping generalisation explain his actions in this case?

And this is just one of the myriads of inconsistencies in your argument. Take for instance the statement you made at point 2) in your latest posting: "Studies of Muslim youth ... are generally low in IQ and impulse control". What sort of studies are you talking about? Who did these studies? As far as I know this kind of studies were last time conducted by certain not-so-progressive guys in this country to justify sending your coreligionists and fellow gay people to the mass murder factories they built in Eastern Europe. I find it somehow ironical that now you're in an alliance of circumstance with the same kind of people who'd have wanted your bacon then.

The doom and gloom image of Europe under the siege by hordes of hostile Muslim immigrants has barely any connection with reality and you know it. Personally, I know lots of decent, hard working, moderate, polite, educated and succesful Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Turkish people in the UK and here and am happy to have them around. And I wouldn't give up my doner or my vindaloo after a weekend night out just to keep a few bigots happy or to bring someone else's war in the Middle East to my continent and country.
06:54 February 20, 2011 by dr.makni49

A decade ago, sharing a discussion that education enlightens brains, I asked the moderator, what if at the peak of top qualification, one finds such a sample outrightly prejudiced. The old teacher, an ex Vice Chancellor replied, it would be catastrophic and then explained, because prejudice is like a pupil of an eye, more light is shown to it, more it shrinks.

The demonstration is here. Some of us are doing more damage to German/European tolerant environment then those four shady characters. I feel you conserve your breath for a better occasion and let others' prejudice consume itself in the wilderness though your reasoning may be precisely balanced, impartial and objective.

12:06 February 20, 2011 by kentchap

I will only comment your latest personal attack on my person, as the rest of your comment is not worth mentioning - it is the same stuff posted a 4th time that myself and other people have already discussed.

My reference to Asian and Middle Eastern take-aways was just banter meant to lower the tension and relax a bit what I perceived to be a tense dialogue. Of course, I am not expecting some stuck up, arrogant and full-of-himself Yank with knee jerk robotic reactions to any challenge to the dogma and ready made judgements on the workings of the world he has been spoonfed by his family and the environment he attends to understand what irony and banter is.

If the dark forces you are keen to unleash have their way and finish with the Muslims and decide that it's time to go for the likes of you, you're more than welcome to reach out to "wishy-washy, guilt-ridden Europeans" without backbone like myself to help. We'd be more than happy to oblige. :-)
18:56 February 20, 2011 by spiegelsteven
I live in the USA and it sucks as far as racism goes on both parts. I am a White Male and i consider everyone equal because we are all human beings no matter race or culture. I also have been a victim of racism. While visiting my father in law in Baltimore Md (Wilkens Ave) if anyone knows were that is. I grew up there in the 60's and 70's and was proud to be from there at that time because it was a clean nice neighborhood. After getting out of the service in 1985 i moved back into a home there and saw it was starting to go down the crapper when homeowners sold out and renters started moving in. My mother and Father in law had to stay because they could not afford to move into the county . So by 1987 0r so Crack cocaine had riddled the homes into slums allot of the people who stayed became crack addicted and heroin addicted. Many people whom i went to school with became prostitutes and or armed robbers.depending on there gender.

Well i was visiting my wifes dad and having dinner there and we just so happened to run out of bread. There is a store 6 houses down and in that little bit of distance i was attacked and beat Black and Blue and had my nose broke my hip broken and phiemer bone broke it was so painful i wish i would have been shot and killed instead it was done to me buy 6 Black youth''who called me everything besides a white man. That beating took me 2 years to get myself to were i could walk right and able to go back to work.

Any money that was saved for my retirement was spent in that period and times are very scary for my family and i. I have went back into business and it has been very hard considering i had no equipment or cash to back myself. I just dont understand why Kids have no respect for there elders these days . It hurts me to my heart because
19:09 February 20, 2011 by Talonx
@ Kentchap

Well said.

@ Elitist

That your goal is to 'win' it's not surprising that you daren't assimilate any of the things we've said to you, or responded to any of the rather kindly phrased challenges to your logic.

Firstly, I would like to echo Kentchap, in that you haven't brought anything new to the argument excepting of course your belief that a religion somehow determines IQ. BTW, there is no research that shows a causation of what you claim here, this is your fantasy, I know this research well and I conclude that you must have read some pop-sci and misunderstood the conclusions).

Secondly, know this, if you ever want to truly benefit from an argument beyond the reward-fueled braingasms that you seem to so enjoy, you should focus less on trying to be the 'winner' and focus more on trying to understand others.

The only way an argument is won, is for everyone involved to understand the truth, anything else is a failure. And I fail like the failure of this argument lay firmly in your hands, thanks for wasting my time. I'm done with you.
10:05 February 21, 2011 by Opeth_fan
Perhaps It was a racist attack? Thats what the press usually assumes when a group of white youths attack someone.
18:31 February 21, 2011 by kentchap
I wonder whether our race relations guru, elitist, has taken notice of reports of the latest attack against a homeless man in the U-Bahn.

This time the ethnic origin of the perpetrators is not mentioned. I wonder why. Perhaps because they were lily-white-arse ethnic Germans and the story wouldn't support the position dear to many locals and some foreigners that the highest proportion of violent crime in this country is committed by immigrants from Muslim countries who refuse to integrate.
21:18 February 21, 2011 by kentchap
If they're German, no one will bother to make it public, as it's something trivial - statistically you'd expect that the majority of criminals in a country to be part of the ethnic majority, so no surprise there.

It would be very interesting to know how the questions in the survey forms sounded like - I find it somehow hard to believe that someone would reveal their intentions to commit crimes on a poll form handed out by law enforcement agencies, especially in a country with limited tradition of protecting an individual's privacy like Germany. How they selected their population sample would be another interesting issue.

I must say, I'm a bit surprised that Atheists, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindus, Jedi, Sith etc. were left out of the survey.
22:40 February 21, 2011 by Talonx
The degree to which someone like elitist twists the truth to match their Weltanshauung is staggering.

Iv'e read the same studies you have been mentioning, I can't think of a single one that does not conclude, 'main effects are likely due to socioeconomic status and/ or generalized structural/ institutional violence'. But, you would know this if you took the time to read them. Go ahead, cite a government sponsered report that claims what you've said it claims as a main conclusion.

I'll assume good will and consider that you are not intellectually dishonest, but rather ignorant. My advice to you, you should try reading more than pop-sci briefs.
01:46 February 22, 2011 by kentchap
Yes, we know the terrible things blacks are capable of from a classic of American cinema, "Birth of a nation". They didn't understand that emigrating to America chained in the hold of a ship was a privilege, not a right and those who didn't respect their part of the deal should be sent home immediately and permanently.

If "individuals ... are responsible for their actions", why on Earth are you denying all these people (Muslim, black, etc) their right to individuality?! Why are you singling out as potential criminals people belonging to an ethnic, racial or religious group on the basis of some dubious assumptions related to the way their community is perceived/expected to behave by yourself or others?
09:21 February 22, 2011 by Gaffers

While I believe you statistics I would add a caution regarding taking only the ethnic criteria into account. What would happen if we were to overlay economic status into this? I do not have facts but a strong suspicion that you could replace ethnic background with financial and get the same results.

A higher percentage of non whites sit in the lower economic wealth brackets which is a leading contributing factor in crime.
09:25 February 22, 2011 by Talonx
@ Gaffers

That's exactly the point, he didn't read the research he's citing, he looked at pop-sci briefs or abstracts.

Additionally, the African American research also generally cites the unequal treatment before the law.
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