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Plans set to tighten net on foreign illegal workers

The Local · 25 Sep 2010, 09:59

Published: 25 Sep 2010 09:59 GMT+02:00

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According to a draft law seen by the daily Süddeutsche Zeitung, all those involved in employing foreigners without the right papers would become liable to pay extradition costs – which can amount to several thousand Euros.

Those convicted of employing illegal workers would no longer be allowed to give work to foreigners at all, the paper reported on Saturday.

Yet those foreigners who have been exploited would find it easier to sue employers for their rightful wages – and would be allowed to remain in Germany in order to do so.

The draft law drawn up by the interior ministry would also impose lengthy prison sentences on those convicted of illegally employing foreign minors as well as those guilty of human trafficking.

And it would introduce the European Union ‘Blue Card’ for the employment of experts from outside the region.

This would allow academics and experts who have at least five years of experience to enter, with their families, if they have a work contract or a binding job offer – if they earn at least 1.5 times the average wage. This would amount to around €42,000 in Germany.

People working in areas where new workers are particularly needed would only have to earn 1.2 times the average wage.

The European Union left it open to member states to decide how long these experts would be allowed to stay – between one and four years. The interior ministry draft envisions the German version to be valid for two years, according to the Süddeutsche Zeitung.

Yet it would seem that at least this part of the new rules could be altered before the law is passed.

Story continues below…

“There is still space upwards with the Blue Card,” said Hartfrid Wolff, interior policy expert for the Free Democrat Party (FDP), referring to the two-year limit currently being proposed.

The draft law would also largely spare minors from extradition procedures – they would be held in custody with their families. This latter measure was criticised by the refugee association Pro Asyl which called for such families only to be held in the most extreme cases.

The Local/hc

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

13:50 September 25, 2010 by annan1063
Good luck with this...If only this would be considered in the USA...
01:52 September 26, 2010 by closeenough
I wouldn't hold your breath. Big business makes too much money employing the cheap labor of illegal immigrants in the US. That is the answer though in my opinion - sock it to the employers and both they and immigrants will look elsewhere, the firms to attracting american workers with fair wages and illegals to improving things where they came from and where they will now have to return.
01:57 September 26, 2010 by janreg58
That's what the people in the US want, but the government doesn't have the balls to do it!
09:13 September 26, 2010 by Johnne
lol.. it´s always funny when our US brothers here complain about immigration policies in the US.. lol"2 they forget ALL of them apart from native Americans are of immigrant descents. You are all europeans so you don´t even have the right to question the status of foreigners in your country. Your fore-fathers went to the US to colonize and oppress. and that country will still be returned to the the original natives, and if you´re not careful most of our "white" brothers will be deported back to Europe. and if my Afro American brothers & sisters are not careful, and respect the native americans (Indians) they too ´ll be directed back to Africa. That continent belongs to the Latinos! it could hapen in the US, Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong. So, lets stop all this rubbish and we should learn how to live together in peace.

Imperialism & fear will only lead us to destruction. I can understand the concern of many of you, and it is not your fault.. your fore-fathers caused this problems for you centuries ago through slave trade,colonization and unnecessary curiousity. I tell my wife these things and we are well informed about our history and heritage. Even Bill Clinton himself is a of Irish descent. Let´s stop this hatred.it is destructive. We are all one! illegal immigrant workers, blue card, work permit, they´re all nonsense. I want you to know that during colonization in Africa, our grand parents needed work permits before they were handed employment, their farms were seized (in their own country) ask how it was in the apartheid South Africa. Don´t adopt these wrong mentality!
09:49 September 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Johnne --

What's also interesting is the number of our American brothers and sisters who have no relation to Germany, do not live in Germany and probably have never been to Germany, but get on this website and hijack it to rant about American topics. They have no dog in this hunt. There are many issues in the German news these days that are related to German issues, to be sure, as German trends tend to follow American trends, but German culture, law, politics and economics are uniquely European. German problems aren't going to be resolved by American solutions. The Americans who hijack this site strictly to discuss American issues typically believe that the US is the center of the universe, a mentality that has led to the mess that America finds itself in today.

Your points about Americans other than the Indians all being descendants of immigrants are well-taken. The so-called American "nativists" in our midst should take note of that fact before they start talking about deporting immigrants. The ones who yell the loudest should be the first to go, as their ancestors stole the land first.
11:26 September 26, 2010 by closeenough
Well, Americans stole America fair and square but that happened some time ago and we have to consider the world as it is if we want to come up with solutions that work. Of course to find a solution you have to articulate the problem. What's the priority here, to protect Germany from being inundated by folks who don't share western ideals and culture or to provide largess for the world's poor by importing them even though Germany has unemployed of its own?
16:42 September 26, 2010 by michael4096
Of course to find a solution you have to articulate the problem.
I agree. So, please, articulate a problem.

Germany is not inundated with anybody and to imply so might be good rhetoric but not good sense. Mccarthy showed how a country can tear itself apart by trying to solve problems that don't exist - you seem to suggest that germany should go down the same path.
18:16 September 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Apparently "fair and square" is the new definition of genocide to some.
19:05 September 26, 2010 by closeenough
Please articulate a problem?


This photo is an example of the application of Sharia law which is being pushed by muslims in several countries in the EU. Muslims around the world continue to deny basic human rights to women and non-Muslims. Muslim jhadists continue to threaten the continent will terror crimes. N
20:41 September 26, 2010 by Talonx
@ closeenough

Oh please, the only difference between the muslim religion and and christian religion is that the muslim extremists have the good sense to blow themselves up when the bomb innocents (cf. Irish Catholic extremists or extremist Jewish Paramilitaries in the '90s in Palestine).

This argument is totally bogus. You're just an anti-semite.
20:56 September 26, 2010 by michael4096

Going back to the mccarthy analogy, people suffered in other parts of the world because of communists extremists but this wasn't a problem in the us and couldn't be a problem in the us. The witch trials and problems caused by ridiculous overreaction to communism caused far more suffering than anything communists could achieve. Just as your ideology regarding islam could cause suffering in germany if enough people think the way you do.

So I ask again. In germany, what problem?
22:51 September 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Don't feed the troll, boys.
23:44 September 26, 2010 by closeenough
Of course there is no difference between muslim and christian extremists, if you discount the fact that muslims aim to establish Sharia law throughout the whole world and lack any respect for women or non muslims.

Too bad we can't ask the 20 million Stalin murdered about their opinion of communism. Of course this very unpleasant ideology was absolutely no threat to the US, the fact that at its high water mark it had enveloped most of asia and half of europe was ample proof of that.
02:08 September 27, 2010 by Prufrock2010
"Of course there is no difference between muslim and christian extremists..."


The remainder of the thesis ends there, proving that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed.

Don't feed the American troll.
03:27 September 27, 2010 by closeenough
Poor Prufrock. He has nothing to add to this discussion so he comments on an incomplete fragment of mine and makes a snide comment about it. Then he tries to paint me as a troll hoping to win the discussion by default. The perfect example of someone who has exhausted any reasonable argument he might have had in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and flails like a drowning man at any device he can find to avoid looking like the overweening fellow he is. And the more Prufrock flails about the more beside the point he becomes.
06:26 September 27, 2010 by Talonx
@ closeenough

Your claim that all muslims want Sharia law would be like me claiming that all Jews and Christians want Commandment law (equally draconian and insufficient to deal with todays world).

Stalin didn't murder people based on their opinion of communism, it was mostly just because. He was a sociopath that just enslaved and killed indescrimanently, kind of like the Christian church for most of its existence.

Next thing you know closeenough will be claiming similarities between Stalinism and Sharia law.

He haven't made any reasonable arguments.
12:59 September 27, 2010 by closeenough
Jihad or the struggle in holy war to is an important religious duty for Muslims in case you hadn't heard Talonx. If you need a source go to the Koran and the proclamations of muslim terrorists and their sympathizers. When was the last time you heard the pope call for a holy war against Islam?

Millions died in Stalinist Russia just because??? Just because that system of government handed absolute power over the state to one man. Want to chance that again do you Talonx? Stalinism and Islam share a mutual lack of respect for people. Not a muslim? Islam teaches jhad until all the infidels are dead or have submitted to Islam. Stalin would have understood that game plan instantly.
14:19 September 27, 2010 by Nina Williams
Please tell me the exact chapter and relevant verse in the Koran where it teaches "jihad until all the infidels are dead or have submitted to Islam". Funny, I have several Muslim friends and none have waged a holy war against this infidel until I submitted...must be something wrong with me?
14:50 September 27, 2010 by closeenough
There's nothing wrong with you Nina. Your muslim friends like many other muslims try to downplay the abjuration by the prophet to war against unbelievers, apostates and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam. Ask your muslim friends about Koran 9.5 in which God instructs his Muslim followers to kill unbelievers. They'll probably slough it off but its the kind of thing they don't want to talk with an unbeliever about for obvious reasons. Of course as a woman you might get short shrift anyway.
16:17 September 27, 2010 by deutschamer
The left always wants to equate illegal immigrants with legal immigrants. When someone is against illegal immigration like myself, the left in the US makes absurd comments like "we are all immigrants except the native Americans". In Europe they label you with nasty sounding names like "Xenophobic". I have always said, don't punish the illegals, except for sending them back. Punish the people that knowingly hire the illegals. Make it a criminal offense, not just a fine. Send them to jail. Then the illegal immigration will mostly dry up without border patrols, fences, or any other such thing. In the US, illegal immigration would be reduced to mainly just drug smuggling which would then be easier to detect.
17:29 September 27, 2010 by Johnne

You see, that is the mentality I´m talking about. why do you have problems with ilegal immigrants? what do you even understand why someone could be tagged as an ilegal immigrant in one country or society? I am an African and I know that it is all lies and discrimination. My own wife had the same problems because she saw ilegal immigrants as criminals. Now, the problem with the Mexican-US Border is not what were discussing here. As a European, you have history..part of your history is what you are against. An ilegal immigrant would prefer to be a president if he has the chance to. What hapens is that they make it extremely difficult for developing countries citizens to have access to the west. Apart from bringing your own money for education or in some cases when corrupt African leaders bring stolen wealth, you don´t have a chance of securing a visiting visa to Germany or the UK or let me say most European countries. Beacuse all of us including you have the same ambitions in life, it is in the nature of man to search for survival anywhere he can. A man wants to work and feed his family, and chase his own dream. It is the same reason why Germans travel to the US or Americans come to Germany. Poor countries citizens can´t just stroll into an EU embassy and tell them he needs a 1 year working visa and gets it! I tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE. These people are denied freedom of movement and economic power in their own countries.

My own grand parents suffered this things in Africa. they had to apply for work permits under the British rule in Nigeria. They were given IDs and we were told not to speak Vanacular "african languages" if yiu wanted to work, you´ll need a work permit. these things brother, were put in place to discrimate. The Indians can tell you what their grand parents went through. I think many westerners don´t really know most of these things that´s why some of you of whom are not even racist would still have problems with immigrants. I want you to know that if you make an illegal immigrant legal, he will achieve, pay tax, integrate and even make your country greater than what you can imagine. Bill Clinton is a son of an Irish immigrant, Obama, and many others that have made the USA even greater today. I´m not saying it´s a good thing but honestly, there´s no big deal in being an illegal immigrant. I tell you most crimes foreigners here commit, are committed by immigrants that were born here on have permanent residence permits. think of it, would you commit a crime if you knew the Police are even searching for you just because you are an illegal immigrant? NO bro.
18:19 September 27, 2010 by closeenough
Thanks for your post Johnne.

No one blames immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for wanting to better their situations. However, in the case of illegal immigrants they are breaking the law, the will of the people of the country they are trying to enter, when they come here without permission. For that they rightly have to take the consequences if they're caught. Hopefully these poor folk are shipped immediately back to where they came from.

I myself support a universal immigration time-out whether legal or otherwise because we have our own unemployed that we have a responsibility for first. Secondly emigrants rob their own countries of their most important resource, the will for change and development. If the developed countries continue to lose their most vital population what chance do they have to effect change within themselves?
18:48 September 27, 2010 by deutschamer

If a country lets in anyone that wants to come, uninvited, then it is not sovereign. If a country makes a law that says those that want to immigrate must be approved to come, but then does not enforce it, then it makes a mockery of the rule of law.

Have you ever thought about working within the country for which you do have citizenship to make that country better so that you can have a good life there?

Also, most developing countries have very draconian immigration laws to prevent immigrants from even less developed countries. They are very hypocritical in that way. Can you really blame developed countries for wanting to protect their standard of living? In addition, Europe is way over populated. The aboriginal Europeans have been reducing their population through birth control which is a good thing. Why should they counteract that with allowing large numbers of immigrants? Of course a reduction population will result in a declining economy. This is the primary root cause of the Japanese declining economy. But there are more factors to a quality of life than just a red hot economy all the time like most economists would have us believe.
18:51 September 27, 2010 by Talonx
@ closeenough

1.) The Judeo-Christian God orders genocides multiple times, he commands the deaths of those that do neat eat properly or wear proper clothing. The Catholic church has waged more holy wars than all other religions combined, not to mention the murder of innocence that resulted from the conquistadors and the inquisition, or, for that matter, the wars of religion within Europe-proper fought alongside the plague devestation. You have to be really ignorant on your religious studies or just a lier to make the claims that you've been making.

All religions are equa-potentially violent. Just look at the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the ongoing Christian crusades in Africa, the Jewish zealots invading palestine (in the 90s actually murdering people) and pushing people of their traditional lands.

2.) You claim in one post that you don't blame immigrants for wanting to better themselves, yet you'll do everything in your legal power to prevent them from doing it in your own country. Why does it matter where they do it? It's this sort of draconian attitude towards people from other places that gets you labeled a racist. I don't know if you are a racist, in the very least you have no concept of the privilege you were born with. You just walked all over Johnne with it.

@ Johhne

It's the vestiges of nationalism and racism in a small group of people that prevent it. I have a very good Croatian friend living in Germany in the same city as myself. He can speak English, German, Croatian, fluently. He's an Engineer of the highest order with a German degree from the Technical Universit of Munich (one of the top schools in Germany). I'm an American that can speak German (not as well as my friend) and English. I do academic work and will remain an academi. Guess who is treated disrespectfully at the immigration office. I'll give you a big hint, I have white skin and am a man from a 'rich' country, whereas my friend has olive skin and curly hair. It's not as terrible as it would be for either of us if we were trying to immigrate to the U.S., but it's still a slap in the face to him who's been working much longer to become a German citizen than myself.
19:13 September 27, 2010 by closeenough
Sorry, the last sentence in my post should have read: If the UNdeveloped countries continue to lose their most vital population what chance do they have to effect change within themselves?

Talonx - - The old testament was superceded by the new testement which talks of loving one another. The Koran has no such modification and continues to proscribe the same Jihad proclaimed by the 9/11 terrorists. Christians haven't been directed to violent confrontation for many hundreds of years in contrast to Islam which continues to advocate it in the Koran.

It does matter where immigrants try to better themselves for the reason at the beginning of this post and the fact that this country's resources are limited and will be increasingly so in the future. Immigrants today should create their own birthright in their own countries and stop pandering to this county's obscene desire for cheap labor at any price.
20:04 September 27, 2010 by deutschamer
Good point about Christianity closeenough. Of course so called "christians" have committed crimes in the name of Jesus, but if one actually reads the new testament, its clear they are not really christians. The new testament talks about turning the other cheek when struck, loving your neighbors and even your enemies, endless forgiveness, and so on. The Koran on the other hand is about an eye for an eye, killing, and generally mean, hateful, and intolerant, similar to the old testament. A true fundamentalist christian is kind and tolerant. A true fundamentalist muslim is hateful and intolerant. What most people think of as fundamentalist christians are really not christians at all. The new testament says there will always only be a remnant of true christians. I am certainly not a true christian. I would say people like the amish and mennonites would come the closest to true christians. I believe there are a few true christians in most of the major denominations, but not many. I doubt people like Talonx has ever read the bible or the koran and speak out of ignorance. Reading the bible and the koran doesn't mean you will believe it, but at least you will know what it actually says, and not what other people say it says.
23:49 September 27, 2010 by Talonx
@ closeenough

You haven't even read your own holy book. What platform do you have to stand on? I've read the bible, 3 times cover to cover (including some of the apocrypha as well as historical studies and pieces on messiahnic cults of the same time period, including Jesus's). You're dead wrong and only parroting the interpretations of those who want to tone down the violence, which exists in even the new testament (either straightforwardly in calls to arms, vieled later by the romans, or directly, as is the case of Jesus's confirmation of his his father's laws of cleanliness).

Just so it's clear for the record, the new testament does not proscribe a new role for god. He's still the same vengeful god he's always been, same as any other selfish deity. Read the whole thing and get back to me.

@ deutschammer

The Sermon on the mount is one of a number of episodes in the new testament, if you actually read the whole of the new testament, I find it hard to believe that you would be able to hold onto this cherry-picked view. You're deluded. As I've said, I've read the bible cover to cover 3 times. I was a commited christian until I actually read it for the first time and realised just how insane and schizophrenic the whole thing was. I encourage you to read the whole thing, don't just suffer through it, actually read it and interpret it the way it was meant, like any mythology, literally, then get back to me.
01:08 September 28, 2010 by closeenough
No matter how many times you've read the bible Talonx you still have it wrong. As I told you before the new testament supersedes the old testament which overwhelmingly refers to a God of love and forgiveness. In verses 7:53-8:11 of the Gospel of John Jesus prevented the stoning of a woman for adultery whereas the Koran proscribes stoning women for adultery. Islamic code prescribes that ¦#39;the stone should not be so big as to kill the offender with one or two stones¦#39; and ¦#39;nor should it be as small as pebbles¦#39;.

There's the difference between the two religions in a nutshell.

By the way you do a disservice to Johhne when you infer that racism and nationalism are to blame for immigration policy in the US and europe. It might be tempting for you to blame racist and nationalist bogeymen for maintaining secure borders but the real truth lies in the desire for self-preservation by developed nation states. Countries that do not have control over their own borders control nothing.
03:18 September 28, 2010 by deutschamer
Unbelievable Talonx, that you could read the new testament and come out with the message you relate above. The only people Jesus even got mad at were the religious leaders of the time, the scribes and pharisees. His was a message of love and forgiveness. He also made it clear God's kingdom was a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly kingdom.
10:37 September 28, 2010 by Talonx
@ Closeenough and deutschamer

Jesus confirms the order of the old testament "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

Jesus speaks of his wraith and jealousy of ones love of family "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:34-37

Jesus confirms gods law to kill unfaithfull children "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." Matthew 15:4-6 (also Mark 7:10)

Jesus speaks of relationships that god didn't like with the daughters of maob and how a plague was sent to kill them "Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand." Corinthians 10:8

There's obviously alot more of this crap. But you would know that if you actually paid attention to what you were reading instead of just cherry-picking for the stuff that you liked (most of which, like the rules from the sermon on the mount, existed long before Jesus).
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