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Turkish scholar warns of racist '19th century' views

The Local · 22 Sep 2010, 10:28

Published: 22 Sep 2010 10:28 GMT+02:00

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The new head of the centre for Turkish Studies and Integration Research at Essen University, Haci Halil Uslucan, said the Sarrazin debate appeared to have flushed out old ideas about race that did not belong in the 21st century.

“Take the now-revived discussion of migrants’ ‘high fertility,’" he said. "Debate about it is like the 19th century racist discussions about ‘primitives’ who could not control their drives,” he told Wednesday’s edition of daily Der Tagesspiegel.

His remarks came as Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger warned of a rising fear of Islam and the view that “Muslims and their religion are regarded as threatening.”

“It would be wrong to see it this way: here, the Western, enlightened and liberal Europeans, there the fundamentalist migrants,” she said on Wednesday at the opening of the German Legal Congress.

Uslucan said that people from poorer rural areas typically had larger families for social reasons, yet such clear-headed analysis was missing from much of the debate in Germany.

“It’s important to note that children in rural communities have an important role as carers for the elderly. This mentality doesn’t change immediately with a change in the area, such as with migration to a country with publicly provided geriatric care. This is just an example of how we don’t question what we see on the streets.”

Meanwhile media debate was stuck in the 1980s, he added. Immigration was a long-term process and an inevitable one.

“I see little appreciation for migration as a significant historical process in which we are all involved,” Uslucan said.

Story continues below…

It was unrealistic to expect foreigners to lose their “foreignness” within 10 to 15 years – as many German observers seemed to expect – when, for example, eastern and western Germans had still not shaken off their own differences even 20 years after reunification.

The Local/dw

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

11:05 September 22, 2010 by AyaMatsuura
He'll get over it.
11:11 September 22, 2010 by JSSL
The problem is that if someone is migrating why not they adapt to their new home country instead of living isolated ...otherwise they should not migrate at the first place..i thought they were running away from pverty/execution and 'hell' esp for women!!!...Also when the host country question about integration, the other part of the world call them racist...Minority is playing a game with the majority which is not going to help at the long run!!!
11:40 September 22, 2010 by Edin
Here is a nice example of media discrimination from another article just down:

"The defending champions were stunned as midfielder Sebastian Rudy beat Munich's defence on the right and squared for Hoffenheim's Veded Ibisevic to score."

So it seems from what is written that Sebastian Rudy (pure German) did all the work when the other guy just put the ball to the goal without any effort. If you watched the game however, it is completely the opposite. The hit by Ibisevic was a blast. Also, Rudy is in general player with much smaller achivements and deserves less attention, but… he is what he is
13:29 September 22, 2010 by mockingbird
poor europe

u accepted people that you have no idea about

read history and you will understand

what they couldn't do in 1500 years they are doing it in less than 50 years.

this time the invasion is demographic and cultural instead of military

the old continent is dying - desertification is approaching

13:49 September 22, 2010 by closeenough
¦quot;primitive¦quot; immigrants who breed uncontrollably". That about sums it up. But he forgot to mention "with extremist and violent tendencies". Poor europe. In a great upheaval it rids itself of fascism in the twentieth century only to be blindsided by Islamofascism in the twenty first. Not that europe didn't see it coming. Its just that it liked cheap labor more than its own social and political health.
13:55 September 22, 2010 by freechoice
what is wrong with go forth and propagate?

don't Roman Catholics disapprove of contraception?
14:10 September 22, 2010 by LancashireLad
At the moment it seems to be more "go forth and propaganda".

Mind you, if I said "go forth and multiply" to some of the respondants - however heartfelt - it would probably be completely misunderstood.
15:50 September 22, 2010 by michael4096
@JSSL - seems to be human nature to think of the way you were brought up as the natural way, nothing specific to immigrants to germany. Look at the german retirees in majorca and most americans on this forum. There's even a song about it: "mad dogs and englishmen (go out in the midday sun.)"
16:52 September 22, 2010 by Nathan_stuck
And don't forget how they arrange marriages for their 16 year old with a girl/guy (often a cousin) from back home and then they have 5-6 kids. They all marry foreigners, who get to come to the country and they do it all over again. The French will be the minority in 30-50 years..in FRANCE! This problem is bad, but everyone is afraid to speak up, and if they do, the media labels them a racist, or someone with fringe ideas.

If you don't believe me, why did most European countries have to change the legal age at which you could marry and get citizenship for someone of a foreign state? It sure wasn't an abundance of Swedish or Danish or Dutch kids falling in love while studying abroad.

Read While Europe Slept, by Bruce Bawer. And he's fairly liberal.
17:19 September 22, 2010 by mockingbird
self destruction is around the corner if things and attitudes are not going to change. muslims in europe constitute 10 to 20 % in some countries but their current footprint is almost 1-2 % in the public life due to bad integration and undermediatisation. For some they are and will remain the isolated backyard people.

i bet you europe will not wake up - it may die in silence - until they will take over

and they reverse back the burqa law and impose chari3a in the heart of Paris.

I'm not halucinating. This may come true in one generation or two maximum.

9-11 was not enought as a wake up call. It seems the old continent is very old to hear the call...

and to all those minimizing their impact especially left wingers that always live in denial of this imminent danger - you make sure that atheism and western secularism are the first target for islmaic ideology way before christianity.

19:02 September 22, 2010 by Der_Zed
cultural relativism is a revolting world view. what is wrong in Bern is wrong in Riyad. primitive anti-science fascist movements like islam hurt the entire culture not just immigrants and all must be made free of their tireless, cloying, cynical tactics to avoid the one thing that NO religious movement can withstand: analysis of their beliefs. islam is a foolish belief system as are all religions and mockery is the weapon most suited to defeating them. you claim to speak for the alleged 'creator of the universe' and yet you fail to even begin to understand the known size, age and number of observable objects with in it? well then you are a fool. you claim a mandate from an invisible being who speaks only to you? you are most likely mentally ill. a historical tendency towards accepting one's beliefs for which they have little or no evidence for and millions of bits of peer-reviewed evidence against is just one of the loopholes being used to ram this idiotic rot down the west's collective throat.
20:08 September 22, 2010 by OkieinBerlin
@Mockingbird, Der_Zed, I'm not sure you really make any point in your letter, but another long-term historical tendency, seen in both Germany and the United States, has been for political nativists and nationalists to blame all society's current woes on the presence of too many foreigners and the presence of too many "others". They, like you, have hysterically predicted the imminent collapse of society brought on by the immigration of "primitive," "foolish," and "mentally ill" foreigners. And over and over, they have shown themselves to be hate-filled bigots, simply wrong at best and genocidal at their worst. You place yourself in this long, disgraceful historical tradition.
20:52 September 22, 2010 by wxman
19th Century? It's the 8th Century culture that concerns me.
21:21 September 22, 2010 by smitherman
One inquiry missing from this report is whether or not Germany's "19th century notions of ¦quot;primitive¦quot; immigrants" applies to other immigrant groups as well. Germany has immigrants originating from around the world, yet it's only the Muslim community, primarily represented by the Turkish, who seem to be misunderstood; or are they? In my neighborhood we have Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani, African (Nigerian I believe), Sindi as well as Turkish families. All speak German very well with the exception of the African who has only been here a short time and is going to classes to master his new homeland's language. All speak German well but the Turkish I mean. A couple of the the kids in my town speak German well and do very well in school. But as a very definable rule, Turkish kids speak poor German even if born into families now entering their third generation in Germany. We should take a closer look at how Turkish immigrants rate against other extra-European immigrants to discover if the problem is one of the German notions or perhaps a more basic failing on the part of the Turkish/Muslim community. And please, no more examples focusing on Berlin's Turkish community.
22:03 September 22, 2010 by closeenough
The following is a bit of a detour from the subject at hand but no sacrifice is too great for your further edification Prufrock 2010.

Chain migration is the primary mechanism that has caused legal immigration in the US to quadruple from about 250,000 per year in the 1950s and 1960s to more than one million a year since 1990. As such, it is one of the chief culprits in America's current record-breaking population boom and all the attendant sprawl, congestion, school overcrowding, and other impacts that reduce American's quality of life.

Chain migration is about family reunification beyond the nuclear family. Until the late 1950s, America's immigration tradition of family unity had only included spouses and minor children. But since then, immigrants can also send for their siblings, parents and adult children. These non-nuclear family members actually get precedence over an immigrant¦#39;s nuclear family. This ill-conceived system also creates incentives for illegal immigration because adult relatives of legal residents are known to overstay their visas (becoming illegal aliens) in hopes of becoming legal immigrants. Moreover, since hundreds of millions of people in the world have a relative in the U.S., the migration chain can eventually reach them all. The claim that chain migration is about ¦quot;family reunification¦quot; ignores the fact that each immigrant who comes to the U.S. ¦quot;disunites¦quot; another family by leaving some new relatives behind. If a person really wants to live near his/her extended family, he/she should remain in the country where that extended family lives. Except for the very small percentage of each year's newcomers who are refugees, nobody is forcing immigrants to leave their families.

So we see that anchor babies and chain migration is a real threat to American's quality of life. The same might be said for europe. I'm in favor of limiting immigration drastically and giving the "lily-white" americans a shot at those jobs at realistic wages. You may have to pay a bit more for your salads when visiting the US Prufrock but you'll rest easy knowing that America is a bit less likely to be swamped by a mostly uneducated army from the dregs of South America.
23:04 September 22, 2010 by Prufrock2010
closeenough --

You posted your comment to me on another thread in response to what I had written. Are you spamming, or are you just into non sequiturs?
23:18 September 22, 2010 by Kayak
@closeenough - autodidactics reul hey bro! Sum of the best stuf is on the iternet... wot yu red. Cool.
23:31 September 22, 2010 by closeenough
Sorry for the double post. The above post belongs in Tokio Hotel Twins thread.
07:58 September 23, 2010 by JohnPaul44
Wow! I had heard that cursing was a special talent in some cultures. I am impressed!
21:17 September 23, 2010 by The Kraut
It would in fact be deplorable if the only Germans who contribute anything to this forum were badly disguised crypto fascists who call themselves grenadeers, Norse whatsoevers or the like.

I am German and so were my parents, grandparents and great grandparents. I haven't got one relative who has ever married a person with a migrant background, and I am sixty-five years old, white, male and overweight, just what you would expect an old Kraut to be.

Anyone who has ever read a history book written by a really good scholar as for example Richard Evans from England knows that it has taken us Germans a hell of a long time to overcome the most horrible features of religious superstition as for example the death penalty, torture or witch burning. Because of that I have been asking myself why it isn't possible for us to forge an alliance between the enlightened migrants and tolerant Germans against the medieval spirit of intolerance and in favour of a secular society.

The sleep of reason breeds monsters, that should be clear to anyone who has ever read a good history book.

No reasonable person wants rituals of retribution the way they were carried out when people were executed in early modern time, and we as Europeans should know how to react when anyone comes along who is trying to introduce sharia law or when people try to stir others up to burn the Koran.

I think we should form a coalition of enlightened non-migrant and migrant Germans who are opposed to violence, hate and aggression in whichever shape and ideological costume they appear.

The Kraut
00:58 September 24, 2010 by Prufrock2010
OkieinBerlin --

Points well taken. Unfortunately, they will be dismissed out of hand by the very people you were addressing because their agenda leaves no room for reasonable discussion. But don't abandon hope. They are a desperate and dying breed.
02:15 September 24, 2010 by MichaelMolenaar
If these immigrants are such great people to have why don't they just stay in Turkey and make it a better place to live? Right? Right?
03:24 September 24, 2010 by JohnPaul44
I noticed that one writer here condemned immigrants for marrying at age 16, often to cousins, and having 5 or 6 kids.

Wow! How shocking! I am of German ancestry. My ancestors immigrated to America more than 200 years ago. While researching my family history, I discovered that more than a few married girls under 16, one under 13, and occasionally to cousins! My German great-great-grandfather had 9 children and 72 grandchildren. One great-great-uncle had 17 kids and more than a 100 grandchildren.

No wonder 40 percent of Americans now have German ancestry and are the largest single ethnic group in America.

Just thougt I would throw this in to show that Muslims aren't the only ones who know how to reproduce and take over a country!
09:25 September 24, 2010 by The Kraut
Dear Reader,

I would like to add something to what I have already said.

Some twenty years ago I used to talk to a Turkish girl who told me they were even torturing kids in Turkish jails and she desperately wanted Turkey to become more western or rather "more like Germany", that's what she said. She even kissed me while we were standing at a bus stop only because I was willing to talk to her although I was some twenty years older than she was.

I am telling you: integration would be feasable if people only wanted to. Why don't you simply talk to Turkish girls or boys at bus stops? Perhaps they would kiss you for it. I think that also applies to some of the English speakers, not only to us Krauts.

I also used to talk to a Portuguese girl who thought I was a very funny old "potato", that's what the Portuguese call us Krauts. After a while I knew more about their internal red-and-green gossip than you would expect a funny old potato to know. They give each other nicknames like Rui is called "Blackbird" when he isn't listening and Joao is called "Thrush". At teast that is what Maria told me.

Maria's reports very much reminded me of Breakfast at Stephanie's which might be a bit difficult to understand for you Anglos because of the Missingsch vernacular but this is what I am trying to tell you: that red-and-green community isn't that different from yours and ours or from what people communicate at any fish and chips shop in good old England.

So integration shouldn't be that difficult although to some extent it would possibly be getting on people's nerves in everyday life but they would also have a lot of fun with each other if they didn't stay inside their red-white-and-blue halfmoon red-and-green Union flag black-red-and-golden boxes out of neurotic fear of the other person who isn't half as different as you expect if you don't talk.

So why don't you simply give it a try and send all the hate preachers, Christian soldiers and Norse grenadeers home?

Come to the next FC St. Pauli football game, they will show you how integration works in a successful manner.

Just give it a try!

The Kraut
20:56 September 24, 2010 by chinablue1104
John Paul, all kudos to your research but western societies have moved on since your great grandfather was alive. Thank God women nowadays dont have to have a child every year anymore and hardly marry at age sixteen. How many families with more than four children do you know? i rephrase, how many families with more than four children who are not on benefits, do you know?
22:57 September 24, 2010 by DavidtheNorseman
Alte Kraut, if only it were so easy. You forget all of us have two arms and two legs and breathe air. It is what we believe that dictates our actions. When someone from an Islamic state is here they are able to live under our freedoms and laws (which many of them like very much). The question is can a society which accepts this:


integrate with secular European society? We've been through the religious wars and come to an accomodation that lets us agree to disagree between Roman Catholics, Protestants, Humanists (except for those like Dawkins). You dismiss Sharia as if it were an addendum that Islamists can ignore or suppress whereas it is a comprehensive political ideology that does not agree to disagree (unless you accept dhimmitude).

This has nothing to do with black, red, brown or white. It does have to do with what rules will govern our states and neighbourhoods (which was why the Swiss responded the way they did as they understood the minarets to be a statement of political intent to change the laws and the Swiss rejected that intent).
05:37 September 25, 2010 by JohnPaul44

You are right, of course. 19th century America still had plenty of space for everyone and economic opportunities for women did not yet exist. Incidentally, I have exactly 0 children. I don't know if I am happy or unhappy about that.

However, I believe the Muslim culture is still largely in the 7th century. The Islamic world reached its peak of culture and civilization in the 10th century when it maintained knowledge and culture while Europe fell into the Dark Ages. It still dreams of that glory without the civilization to back it up.
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