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Pensioner jailed for attempted Jehovah's Witness massacre

DDP/The Local · 20 Apr 2010, 16:17

Published: 20 Apr 2010 16:17 GMT+02:00

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The man, who the court said blamed the church for his estrangement from his daughter – herself a Jehovah’s Witness – entered the church hall in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia last July armed with a machine gun, knife and samurai sword.

But he was unable to fire the weapon and was eventually overpowered by worshippers before he could inflict any damage.

The court in Halle judged the man guilty of 39 counts of attempted murder – the number of bullets he was carrying – as well as weapons charges.

The man had denied any intent to murder and his lawyer said they would appeal the verdict.

Judge Jutta Albert said in her hour-long judgement that on the evening of July 30 2009, “nightmare became reality” for the 81 worshippers gathered at the Jehovah’s Witnesses church hall in Bielefeld.

The man had stormed the prayer meeting with intention of killing as many people as possible, she said.

The former prison warden, bricklayer and soldier carried three magazines with a total of 39 rounds, as well as a knife and a samurai sword.

Rejecting the claim he had not intended to kill anyone, Judge Albert said the man had been driven by an “animal hatred” because his daughter had turned away from him and joined the religious group.

She added that the pensioner had long planned the crime, keeping contact with the church in order to spy on it. This was proven by a letter he had written to his son expressing his hatred for the church and outlining his plans.

The man had “preyed on the ignorance of the congregation” and planned to “wreak a bloodbath in the church hall,” she said.

The only reason he failed to carry out his murderous plan was that he could not operate the machine gun. Likely he had been too delirious with rage to handle the weapon or had been unable to release the safety catch and pull the trigger because he was wearing thick gloves.

Story continues below…

But crucially, the weapons were fully functional, Judge Albert said.

Reading from a criminal profile, she said the man had been above the average fitness and mentally capability for his age. However she also stressed he had a tendency to violence, having once beaten his adult daughter in a cellar while wearing leather gloves.

Lawyer Werner Robbers said after the trial his client still denied he had intended to murder anyone and would appeal the verdict and sentence. The man claimed during the trial he wanted to warn the Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation of the dangers of Islamic extremism.

He also claimed he had stumbled on the weapons by accident in the woods. If he’d wanted a bloodbath he would have succeeded, he said, given his familiarity with weapons.

DDP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article

09:45 April 21, 2010 by Concerned21
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.Jehovah's Witnesses and their New York City based religious racket has defrauded millions of followers and broke up countless families.Just like Scientology a destructive cult.

How to deal is to expose them with education not violence.

.Google: Jehovah Witness Watchtower
12:44 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
The Jehovah's Witnesses drove a loved one of mine to suicide after ripping her off for most of her fortune. My sympathy's with the pensioner.
14:48 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
@Converned21 -- If violence is the last refuge, then anonymous unsubstantiated accusations via web comments has to be the next to last refuge of the incompetent--or the deceitful.

@Prufrock2010 -- Oh, please! I've never seen a religious group LESS focused on money than Jehovah's Witnesses. If you're going to criticize, at least tell the truth. Such exagerrations reveal you as just another anonymous internet troll...

Sigh... Jesus foretold that his disciples would be hated for following his teachings. Such trolls simply show the truth of his words. If you want to know about Jehovah's Witnesses, ignore the haters. Just get out your Bible and check out their website. Everything they teach is based on scripture. See for yourself if they are following Christ or not.
15:02 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ ChrisJW:

I have seen for myself, thank you. The woman in question happened to be my ex-wife. Your comments are particularly offensive to me. Save your proselytizing for the ignorant and uninitiated as you go door to door promoting your cult.
15:19 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
@Prufrock2010 -- Whatever. The web gives you the freedom to make any claim you like, but if your "sympathy's" are with the nutjob in this story, as you claim, then you can't blame readers for taking anything you say with an entire shaker of salt.
15:25 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Chris JW:

You only joined this forum about an hour ago to stir up the pot with JW propaganda. A troll shouldn't be calling serious posters trolls.

Believe me or don't, but I know all too well how Jehovah's Witnesses operate.
16:29 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
@Prufrock2010 -- You are what passes for a "serious poster" here? Yikes. Well, I'll leave this comment box to you and your fellow "serious posters". [rolling eyes]

And for the record, maybe YOU believe what you say, but I don't believe it for a second. It is dangerous to take statements by loose-cannons like you seriously so I will call you (and others like you) on your overblown rhetoric.

To all: Ignore the hate! Get out your Bibles, visit www.watchtower.org and let the "due diligence" begin!
16:48 April 21, 2010 by GusBricker3
Investigate their portfolio

The Watchtower is a failing organization (corporation) that is bloated with money like Scientology,and like Scientology exaggerates it's membership and discredits it's critics.

There are TWICE as many EX-Jehovah's Witnesses as active ones with thousands leaving every month.

Best regards,there is a good life after the cult.
17:00 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
Yikes--more claims and rhetoric. And hate.

Don't fall for it, people. Use your God-given thinking abilities and don't let these trolls...errrr..."serious posters" think for you!
17:18 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
From personal experience I know that it is pointless to try to have a rational discussion with a Jehovah's Witness. They firmly believe that only they have a corner on "the truth" and everyone else is benighted. In fact, they refer to their teachings as "the Truth." They indoctrinate their cult followers into zombie-like submission under threat of disfellowship, and denigrate their critics relentlessly. They refer to Christianity as "chistendom," or alternatively "the whore of Babylon." They believe they are living in "the last days" and that only they will survive Armageddon. Their ultra-literal interpretation of THEIR version of the bible would make an evangelical look like an enlightened progressive. They would prefer to let their children die rather than to allow them to receive a life-saving blood transfusion. They are even more misogynistic than the Catholic Church, adhering quite literally to the Apostle Paul's admonition that "women should be silent in the congregation." They reject any participation in any secular government and refuse to vote. They are a pseudo-christian Taliban without guns.

Check out their literature and decide for yourselves. There is no one so ignorant as a person who is sure what is true.
17:27 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
Long-discredited accusations, inaccuracies and half-truths? As a "serious poster" can't you do better than that?

The bogus appeal to scripture is especially grating. But that tactic has been tried before. It's recorded at Matthew 4:1-10. Notice how Jesus handled it.

Again, don't be deceived. Get out your Bibles and put your brains to work, people. Ignore the hate.
17:35 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Chris JW:

I BURIED one of your cult's victims, sir, after she was driven to suicide by the elders in her "congregation." Spare me the Jonestown bible-babble. You should get out a real bible and read the part that states "even the devil can quote scriptures for his own ends."

End of discussion with you. Just hope you never show up on my doorstep.
17:44 April 21, 2010 by ChrisJW
Yikes. Prufrock1020 seems very much like the wacko in this story! Hate usually distorts people's thinking.

Anyway, I too am tired of this. There is nothing original here. Just haters parroting what they hear from others.

Those who hunger for spiritual truth, you know what to do. Those who don't will try to tear you down but ignore them and keep digging. You can succeed! (Prov 2:1-5). Get out your Bibles and dig in.
18:11 April 21, 2010 by Concerned21
Actually if any group is spreading hate - it is the JWs. They complain about how bad the world is doing but do very little to nothing in charitable works. Have they run a food bank , run a clothing drive. No they litter the landscape with magazines. They can't even be green friendly.

99% of their dogmas are bogus they take and take and take....
18:25 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Yikes, indeed!
18:44 April 21, 2010 by SMSC
My daughter has a friend that is a JW and I worked with one, and they sit and preach at you all the time about their religion and it drives me mad!
18:53 April 21, 2010 by GusBricker3
Jehovah's Witnesses come to our homes with a pretense that is fraudulent from the get-go.

You pitch that you are doing Jesus work (lie) you use all sorts of conversation starters to try to put us at ease,con and scam us into joining your sect,that is no better than any other.

Jehovah's Witnesses will tell you their Kingdom Halls are for "worship", but their "worship" consists of being taught how to overcome objections to the sales pitches they give at your doors and how to try and get their extremely deceptive literature into your hands.

Their Kingdom Hall meetings are to bolster their elitist teachings that they have the only religion on earth that pleases God,only they are being blessed by God and that all other people on the planet but them will be destroyed soon by their God.

Jehovah's Witnesses promotion of their Watchtower sect has the net effect of stumbling and turning people off to the real Gospel. (Matt 23:15)
19:01 April 21, 2010 by Randy The Man
SMSC...what a cry baby, all you have to do is ask them to stop.

I think the JW's are the only people around that try to follow the example of Christ. At least the true JW's that is. Your always gonna have some that strattle the fence in any group. If this world is becoming Christ haters, then they will become JW haters as well....and if that happens, lord help us all, because man certainly can't cure the problems we face these days. If you put your trust and faith in man...I truly feel sorry for you all.

Adam and Eve blew it.

Jesus Christ died for us all...and soon, he will carry out Dan. 2:44

19:13 April 21, 2010 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
Religion doesn't cause death. Religious evangelism does. I suggest we all keep to our own faiths and stop talking about this.
19:34 April 21, 2010 by SMSC
well Randy the Man, its pretty messed up when i do ask them to stop as i do not believe in their views and they continue, they come to my house and i ask them not to and they continue as they feel they can convert me, im not being a cry baby, but they are the pushiest dang religion out there and dont take no for an answer.
19:37 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I respectfully disagree, Grenadier. It needs to be talked about, like any "ism" that leads to perdition. Fanatics of any persuasion have a perverse way of shaping events to the detriment of societies. A healthy dialogue is a good prophylactic against extremism. If everyone kept to his own faith, as you suggest, and stopped trying to shove it down everyone else's throat, everything would be fine. But that's not the case with cults and religious fanatics. As is often said, sunshine is the best disinfectant.
20:43 April 21, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I would certainly relish a Genesis reunion. What are the odds?
14:50 April 22, 2010 by dbert4
You know the, Phil Collins "Dance into the light" tribute band that is touring Germany is first rate. I see them recently in Frankfurt.
18:47 April 22, 2010 by Hebbellover
Wow, and I thought that my Germany was all about socialism, and brotherly love?
19:34 April 22, 2010 by Prufrock2010
"Wow, and I thought that my Germany was all about socialism, and brotherly love?"

You mean it isn't?! Brother, have I been misled!
20:13 April 22, 2010 by Kim C
I have a brother who was/is an elder of the Jehovia Witnesses in Tennessee. When our mother died, she left her small estate to him as she held his being a "minister" in great esteem and took for granted his "honesty" with her instructions to him that he divide it equally between himself and his five siblings. He kept my share. I still would like to know what Bible he reads.

Now, my daughter has become a Jehovia Witness but has not made the final committment to be "baptized". I raised her a Catholic. Now we no longer can celebrate the birth of Christ, birthdays, any holidays whatsoever, not even Thanksgiving. I wish I had the words to convince her that they are reading the Bible and misinterpreting the scripture and that this religion really is a "cult" and that any religous group that so separates from their fellow countrymen who do the voting and the fighting and dying for the country while they get to reap the benefits of a free nation are not to be given any respect. I have never heard of them visiting the sick, giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, or putting themselves out on a limb for anyone. If someone can show me where to look for those words to show my daughter that although she is a sincere young woman, she is going down the wrong road. Thanks to anyone who does.

20:45 April 22, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Kim C:

Click on my name and send me an email through Toy Town and I will do my best to respond to your request.
01:04 April 23, 2010 by Joshontour
@kimC http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/cults/exposejw/preface.cfm
01:25 April 23, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ Joshontour:

Good link. The leaders of the JWs are as crazy as Glenn Beck, the followers sadly gullible. Thanks.
01:58 April 23, 2010 by talltreetrader
The best way to answer a JW at your door or any time is to quote scripture.

Rev 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 22:18-19

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


The JW are continually changing their doctrine; they say they have new light.

There is no new light. Jesus is the light and is the same today, yesterday and forever.

It is a very serious offense to alter the Word of God (Jesus is the Word) weather a JW or any other cult or sect.
18:01 April 23, 2010 by drugsgunsandfights
they help tons, i am an ex con, was into everything my name says, b/c of studying, refusing to listen to HATE, i learned so much, my life is wonderful and my family is happy,

i urge any to take up the challenge, see what all the hate is about and take your bible and ask questions, about anything worth asking and see what answers God's written word gives you.
18:09 April 23, 2010 by Rhett
39 cartridges = 39 attempted murders? That is assuming the old guy could take aim and fire at 39 different individuals. The fact is that with the first burst of fire from an automatic weapon, the old guy probably would be shooting out the overhead ceiling of the building. He couldn't hold the weapon down. A technicality, I suppose.
11:22 April 24, 2010 by Concerned21
Everything about the Jehovah's Witnesses is deception because you are a supremacist cult who feel no need to be truthful with unbelievers who are all,"gonna die at armageddon anyway".
22:23 April 24, 2010 by michelachikova
Who is the leader of the cult?
20:11 April 25, 2010 by Just saying
Despite all the things people have to say about Jehovah's Witnesses what this man was attempting to do was horrible. Had is been able to operate his weapon he could have killed a number of people. So no matter what your feelings about ANY group of people we should not "sympathize" with this man, his goal was to kill people and that can never be looked at as ok, no matter how much hate you feel for Jehovah's Witnesses.
16:26 April 26, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
Its not very nice, as a young mother who is one of Jehovah's Witnesses to read about non witnesses trying to educate people about being a Witness.

We are witnesses because we love God, believe the bible as his word and are good people who positively contribute to societies in which we live.

As a witness, I have learnt and understand why most religions believe in their different belief systems, like the Trinity, easter/xmas celebrations, the Koran etc. Do you know why we as witnesses, although knowing these things, do/ don't do the things we do? For example I can tell you why some believe in the Trinity, and why, from any bible we as witnesses don't.

I cannot and wont comment on peoples personal experiences with witnesses as I was not involved. But I do know that no one is perfect, we all make mistakes. We are people who come from all different back grounds and experiences in life and with different personalities. But what I do know that Witnesses as a group, strive to live by Godly principles and never mean any harm to anyone, physically or in any other way.

To the person who lost a loved one, you have my deepest sympathies. Its a horrible thing to go though and I hope you are doing ok.

Although I don't know the situation in which things happened, I can assure you that the elders would never have wished things to result in the way it did. I know it doesn't take the pain and loss away, only God can do that.

No matter who we are, we all have to answer to God, and he is the one who reads our hearts.

Peace people.
07:49 April 27, 2010 by Concerned21
Jehovah¦#39;s Witnesses are wolf in sheep¦#39;s clothing.

09:11 April 27, 2010 by Johnnysurf
As with any religious group, some of Jehovah's Witnesses act in a way that they should not. This is always an "exception" rather than a "rule." As a whole Jehovah's Witnesses are upstanding citizens of the areas in which they live and/ or preach. We may "get on your nerves" with our preaching, but I guess Jesus got on peoples nerves as well when he and his disciples went preaching.

If you don't like us, fine - "been there, experienced that."

People have had some legitimate bad experiences with some Witnesses - and that is unfortunate, but that happens in every area of life.

People need to open their eyes, Folks are so busy "watching" Jehovah's Witnesses, that they allow other "legitimate" religeous groups do things they should not.
09:35 April 27, 2010 by GusBricker3
250,000 Jehovahs Witnesses have died since 1945 due to the No blood transfusion ban of *whole blood*.

You can't fool the general population of readers on this as we all hear about the deaths on the news all the time.
09:49 April 27, 2010 by Johnnysurf
Funny we didn't hear about the horrible things goin on in the Catholic Church all these years up until now.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only ones who don't accept blood transfusions - heck, even many doctors don't. Maybe you should check the number of people that have died BECAUSE they recieved blood.

The advance of "non blood surgery" techniques have developed tremendously - mostly as a result of the stand Witnesses take. Non - blood surgery is healthier for the patient, and cheaper for the health organization in the long run.

If Witnesses have died, they have died standing for what they believe in. How many of our young (and old) men and women in uniform died in countless conflicts over countless years doing what the felt was the right thing to do?

Thousands of Witnesses also died or were executed in concentration camps because they refused to compromise their faith, unlike many others ­ including so called ¦quot;religious leaders¦quot; who turned a blind eye to the horrible events of that time.
10:11 April 27, 2010 by GusBricker3
Jehovahs Witnesses controversy in a nutshell

Cult-like hard core apocalyptic fundy Watchtower is an 1870 splinter group from the William Miller *great disappointment* fallout.

They have kept followers on the edge of the seat and drained them dry after pinning all their hopes and dreams on the always just around the corner post armageddon *paradise".

They took everything from many followers including lots and lots of money.Now bloated with wealth... all they can do is stagger around and shoot critic messengers and say the Catholic church was worse with it's atrocities and exaggerate some of the few beneficial JW legacies.

They ripped off millions most who just grew old and died so can't say anything back now.

The number one fear of the Watchtower is bad PR and lawsuits for fraud,just like Scientology same lawyers same spin doctors same shills same everything.
15:02 April 27, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
I don't know why some are on about Jehovah's Witness organisation and money....unlike a lot of religions, there is no mandatory collection of funds, nor is there a minimum 'donation' required...ever. All funds are donated at the free will of the people who wish to contribute. And financial reports on how the funds are used are made public, and read out at congregation meetings.

If anyone has any accusations of fraudulent activity by the Jehovah's Witness organisation I wish to see hard evidence. Anything other than that is plain defamation and subject to a court of law.
22:26 April 28, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Read my posts above, Angelbaby. Then sue me for defamation. That's one legal battle I would love to defend.
15:58 April 29, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
Prufrock2010, again, sorry for your loss, she must have ment a lot to you.

I am not here to sue anyone, (I'm do damn busy ;-). But I am a little sick of people dribbling on with unfounded accusations. I have read your posts and don't consider you in the above mentioned.

I do not know you or your experiences with Witnesses, therefore cannot comment on such, only that they are your opinions, which like everyone you are entitled to.

I will say however, that I don't think you know as much as you think you do about witnesses. Whether that be partly as a result of reading anti witness sites or the like, it really just results in intolerance of those who may think differently than you do whether it be about the bible, morals or life itself.

Oh and btw, I do not appreciate being referred to as "gullible". Just because I believe in what the bible says and am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, both of which you seem to look down on people for, regardless of how much of a good person they are, or the good that they personally do, and most times as a direct result of their 'beliefs' and moral standing.

I hope you can consider that next time you want to bad mouth a 'group' of people , whom you don't know personally and who try and tell you that some of the things your saying about their organisation is not the case. Try and keep an open mind. To steal a quote, There is no one so ignorant as a person who is sure what is true.
05:43 April 30, 2010 by Goddess2319
What you should really do, and this is directed at those preaching AND those putting JW's down for doing it, let it be!!! People will pick the religion they want, and telling them it's not right won't work. I'm a former JW, and I know everything they do. Why did I leave? It just wasn't the right religion for me. It's worked out so well for my mom, she's happy, has loads of friends, and just recently got married to a wonderful man.

Ok, I have to comment on a few things people have said about them.

Someone earlier mentioned that they don't let women speak. ROFLMAO!!!! If that were the truth, I would've left ages ago! It might be different in different cultures, but I specifically remember answering at meetings, being asked to read, giving talks, I was even interviewed at the age of NINE in front of 2k other witnesses! They do not supress women. I know a lot of very strong women, and they're mostly JW's!

The money issue. Yes, they do accept donations out of the goodness of your heart like any charitable organization. Have any of you done research on what those donations go towards?? Upkeep of kingdom halls, if someone in the hall is in need some will go to them, helping people who have lost their homes. When it comes to that, they even spend THEIR OWN TIME helping, they don't hire out contractors, they do it themselves! Volunteers from halls all over the country/world will go where there is a need and help. My mother and I had no money after she'd lost her job, they took up a collection and helped us pay our bills, and buy food till she was able to find work again. http://www.watchtower.org/e/20021201/article_02.htm

Door to door ministry. Do you know why even if you say you're not interested they keep coming back? Funny thing, PEOPLE MOVE! So who's to say a year later you won't be at that address and someone who IS interested has moved in? They come to give comfort to those who need it, or hope. Isn't that what religion is all about?? Faith, hope, doing what you feel is right...

I accept all religions (except Satan worshippers, obviously). I feel people should be allowed to do what they want w/o people jumping to conclusions. But there will always be those that don't understand, and will twist things. I happen to be in another religion of sorts that is persecuted and I get loads of comments on people that mis-conceive what it's all about. Do research on your own about any religion. Find the truth about them, ask questions the next times JW's show up at your door. Please, do the research from legitimate websites, and then decide for yourself. Don't let someone else decide for you what's right and what is wrong.
15:30 April 30, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
Well said Goddess2319, and thank you for your candid honesty ;-)
06:38 May 2, 2010 by GusBricker3
Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a dangerous cult in many European countries and definitely under investigation because governments are concerned by the mind manipulation, child molestation cover-ups, breaking up of families due to shunning, as well as other atrocities taking place within the religion. Victims of WT's hard-line organizational policies are speaking up to government officials about their experiences and they are responding with assistance.
13:32 May 2, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
GusBricker3, There are many atrocities committed within any religious group, some even in the name of religion itself. But I would think that the isolated cases among Witnesses in nothing in comparison to a lot of others, even the 'larger' religions which dominate most of Europe such as the Catholic Church and the Muslim Faith.

Another point to consider is that Witnesses do not cover up crimes, and the offenders are also expelled from the organisation. Witnesses are very 'strict' when it comes to moral standing and never permit any offender continue association and ties to the organisation. This is done to protect the 'flock'.

I really don't now how you can say Witnesses are dangerous...we don't even go to war on the basis of killing another human being is morally wrong, let alone any other sinister scenario some may accuse us of. Again these accusations are totally baseless and pretty much defamation. You obviously have no idea what the Witnesses are all about and quite frankly your ignorance is insulting.
08:07 May 3, 2010 by Concerned21
Jehovah's Witnesses defenders behave like classic circular reasoning cult apologist.They decry that opposers are haters and bigots,but don't or can't refute the criticisms.

EXAMPLE: They go on and on about the Bible *command* to abstain from blood but will not debate on how this applies to modern blood transfusions and how it is they they will compromise the Biblical *commandment" by using blood derived fractions and the real shocker that they allow the use of so called Hemopure that is made from Cow's blood.

Their speciality *new light* esoteric doctrines unique to the Watchtower JW are man made mostly elaborated in the last 50 years and bogus.When you corner them on this point they will do skirt and divert rants about the wickedness of other religions.

Classic in your-face-blame game religious hypocrites
03:31 May 4, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
Concerned21, Yes, I don't know what to say...where do I begin....what a load of rubbish! Any witness will be able to give you the information to the ALL the above 'questions' - not that in your case they actually are. How about you actually ask and LISTEN to the reply witnesses will give you on the subject rather than continue on with mindless intent to discredit. A short version off the top of my head on the blood 'issue' is that the bible says that blood is sacred to Jehovah (God), as it possesses life. When an animal is to be slaughtered for food its blood is to be poured out on the earth and definitely not consumed. Witnesses do not accept whole blood transfusions based on this. The blood fractions however are a matter of personal moral standing, some witnesses feel this does not breach the above mentioned, others may feel differently, it is up to the individuals conscience before God. A 'grey area' if you like. If you'd rather a detailed version with quoted scripture I suggest you read the appropriate brochure we supply detailing our reasons, though I'm sure your too against our 'literature' for fear of being 'brainwashed' into such a dangerous cult. Oh please! Spare me this nonsense. And as for 'new light' as you call it, Witnesses are constantly examining the scripture and cross referencing. It has to make sense as a whole, you can not pick pieces out and interpret it in any way you wish - that would be going against God's Word. We do not add anything to the information we find either. If you want an example heres one: Smoking. There is nothing in the scripture saying "don't smoke" - probably because cigarettes weren't even on the scene yet. But the scriptures do say that we must look after our bodies and not do anything harmful to them, let alone anyone elses'....now, would you say smoking the chemical rubbish they have in cigs is not harmful? - not only to yourself but to others who may be near you. Hence in the 'light' a new realization that accepting the habit would not be acceptable to God who has asked his worshipers to be 'clean' and 'sound in body and mind' the Witnesses no longer accepted it among themselves. As I mentioned before, Witnesses are a very moral-ally based organisation when it comes to the scriptures. Hence why we don't go to war, vote, etc etc. If you bothered to find out from the horses mouth so as to speak, you would find out why we do and don't do things. If you don't agree, thats fine. But bad mouthing an organisation for the simple reason of deliberate defamation without even having all the facts first is down right ignorant. And just because we have a different belief than you doesn't give you the right either. Other classic examples of people like that is Hitler and Osama Bin Laden. Its just plain intolerance of diversity.
04:17 May 4, 2010 by Goddess2319
There's no point arguing with people like this, Angelbaby. They're going to think what they think, and never change. They're just stubborn and think they know it all and won't listen to reason. It will be their own downfall. It's people with attitudes like that that made me swear(as I'm now a mommy-to-be) that if my children ever wanted to be JW's, I wouldn't oppose or try to stop them. Even though I'm no longer one myself, and my husband isn't either. We both feel choice of religion is very personal and no one should be stopped or put down for their choice. But not everyone can be like that unfortunately, and they have to have their opinions heard. They're ignorant, and won't listen to reason. They remind me of the high priests in Jesus' days, actually...
04:46 May 5, 2010 by Angelbaby jw
Yes, history repeating itself. I was in two minds as to whether I should dignify his 'statements' with a response, but figured if someone reading the posts is genuinely interested in the real reasons behind those things then I would give them a bit of an idea. But from now on I think I'll leave it, and just encourage those who are curious as to why we do and don't do things to simply ask a Witness next time they come across one in person. Saves me the hassle of having to deal certain types of people who think its ok to talk rubbish about an others beliefs. I don't care who they think they are but how I was raised it is a great disrespect to put down a group of people simply because they differ from myself. Without even having the facts I might add. I mean, really...

On a much happier note, congrats Goddess for your expecting arrival! Exciting times ahead ;-) I wish you well and know that you will thoroughly enjoy motherhood as I have. Its such a roller coaster ride of emotions and filled with such joy as you watch them grow into beautiful human beings. xx
18:07 May 6, 2010 by emilynghiem
2 separate issues collided in this case.

The man was already violent, not a negotiator but onesided in denial, while his daughter found refuge with JW to sort out her own side. Few groups (I can think of 2-3 that could intervene and help him on longterm basis) are equipped to handle cases of dangerous denial, as in domestic violence where people using restraining orders end up dead anyway.

Situation is compounded because JW have their own record of denying past abuses, without full support for reconciling between families with related issues. JW may take responsibility only for their own, but leave the rest to God or the world to decide, which does not solve the root problem, but denies instead of sharing responsibility.

Both issues need attention before this happens again. Can't blame all on one side, there was denial on both and lack of support to resolve conflicts. Each case may take specialized training or methods from different groups; there is NOT just "one size fits all" as JW traditionally limit themselves and teachings.

Not sure if JW can design a "uniform" procedure "on their own" for dealing with conflict, much less abuse or violence. We already disagree on interpreting Bible, as JW only see JW elders as authority and members as "witnesses" and don't respect or acknowledge others equally in spiritual mediation process. All successful programs I found in mediation & violence prevention never impose a central decisionmaker but rely on free and equal participation & input from different people or groups in conflict.

Both Bahai/CHR forum and Quaker/AVP workshop have developed successful programs offered freely thru nondenominational training outreach to general public. Difference is their approaches are "inclusive" and respect people's inherent value & free will as human beings, instead of discriminating by position of members or elders as in JW hierarchy (which works well to structure the group but is disastrous outside).

Neither blind opposition or blind defense of JW helps either but reinforces "division" which JW claim is against God. May take mutual effort/inclusion by all sides to find solutions to resolve relations instead of cutting them off without sharing equal responsibility.

Taking the best of JW structure/policy while correcting faults, can end the cycle of denial and separation that impairs relations and impedes conflict resolution and greater unity. You can distinguish yourself from the world without denying equal responsibility for yourself and neighbors.

People who feel "inside" or "outside" a group need mutual support to rebuild good faith relations together, regardless of standing or fault for division. Environment of inclusion and equal respect prevents abuse or violence. No need to reject or raise voices where we agree to hear each other out; cutting people off without solving problems is not solving the problem!
03:23 May 16, 2010 by PhantomPoodle
I will make one comment on this and that will be the only comment I make. To the person whose loved one took their life, I am so sorry. Jehovah's Witnesses are not perfect. Some are mentally ill. Others suffer from physical problems. Some have yet to remove the old personality and put on the new, meaning, they may harbor bad traits from a past life. I have known some who have taken their life. It was not the elders fault but rather, no one knew the person was that ill. I am sorry for your loss.

To others, I was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in 1973. I have seen much and heard much from those who oppose my faith. I have yet to find any truth in what they say. I am poor, disabled, and NO ONE ever asks for my money. If I drop in two small coins with little value, it is looked upon as if I dropped in millions. Why? Because I have none to spare. If one has money to contribute, they do so without being asked personally to do so. Now, are all the elders upright and good? Jesus said that 'wolves in sheeps coverings' would enter the congregation and treat the congregation badly. I have seen this happen. What you don't understand is that the bad they do catches up with them and they are REMOVED from the congrgation. (We call this disfellowshipping but some refer to it as excommunication). When and if they return, they can NEVER hold the position of oversight again. Why? because their crime was against the congregation to begin with and why give them the chance to harm God's people again. Also, according to scripture, they are accountable to the MOST HIGH HIMSELF! Now, if you do not fear standing before the most high for such a crime, know that the scriptures say this will be a serious matter. And the fact that this man beat his daughter in his celler would of course make it so that she would never want to see him or be near him.

Now, to my dear faithful friends who have commented here, thank you for all your hard work. Sadly, with time and age, my health is such I can not share in the door to door preaching work, but I do my best with what I can do. May you continue to remain faithful to our loving God and Creator, Jehovah. And for those who don't know, we are not punished for not having a full hour to turn in. There are many housebound and ill in the congregation. We can turn in as little as 15 minutes and still be in good shape with the congregation and with God. When ill, the elders look after us and help us. When broke, the congrgation assists us to make sure we have a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. We lack nothing in this world of hate. We have friends who would die for us. Elders who shepherd us and guide us. And we have Jehovah who hears every single prayer.
20:53 July 16, 2010 by bugger



If you would like more REAL and accurate info about Jehovah's Witnesses on the web be sure to check out the official web site at www.Watchtower.org




10:04 August 19, 2010 by Christian Peper
The Jehovah Witness organization preys on the depressed and the lonely. I lived with a sociopathic Jehovah witness roommate who took my most basic rights away. This organization has caused many broken families and many deaths. Violence is never the answer but it is obvious that the organization pushed this man to do what he did. When an organization uses mind control to take away a family member there is little that can be done. Again, violence is not the answer but education is. Because one big tool used in mind control cults is the control of information; the members cannot consider the false prophecies of the cult. Most Jehovah Witnesses don¦#39;t know that the organization is built on false predictions like 1914, 1925, 1975, and the ¦quot;last generation¦quot; falsehood.

19:47 August 22, 2010 by budgietongue
And here we go again, someone who knows absolutely nothing about the bible telling us that the organization pushed this man to do it, there was a man in scotland not so long ago that murdered 16 schoolkids and their teacher gunning them down in cold blood, and a story appears in the newspaper that the man held a grudge against the parents of the kids for getting him taken off the gymnastics training programme held in the local area due to complaints of him touching the kids innappropriately when training, this led him to commit murder on a massive scale. there is a bible account of a famous couple who were told not to eat a fuit from a tree they disobeyed and suffered the consequences, incidently when jehovah god asked the man what he had done his reply was, in effect it was the woman you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so i ate. yes eve PUSHED adam to disobay god and he thought it was ok. WRONG, he was as guilty as eve and paid the price just like our german pensioner, he will pay too NOBODY and NOTHING can make you commit evil unless your under satanic influence or just plain warped and no amount of kidology from jw haters changes that, end of story.
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