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Williamson's Holocaust trial to start Friday – without him

AFP · 14 Apr 2010, 11:02

Published: 14 Apr 2010 11:02 GMT+02:00

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"He will not be there," lawyer Matthias Lossman said. "I will explain to the trial why he is not coming."

The bishop, a member of the breakaway Catholic ultra-conservative Saint Pius X Society, said in a television interview recorded in Germany in 2009 that "200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them by gas chambers."

"It was all lies, lies, lies," he said in the interview, aired later on Swedish television, and "not one Jew" was killed in the Nazi gas chambers.

Williamson was fined €12,000 earlier this year by a court in the southern city of Regensburg, near where he made the comments.

But a further trial was ordered after he refused to pay up, although the court does not require the bishop to be present.

The outburst prompted a very rare comment on religious matters by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who called on Pope Benedict XVI to "clarify unambiguously that there can be no denial" the Nazis killed six million Jews.

The scandal carried particular resonance in Germany, where the Nazis masterminded and carried out the murders during World War II, and because Pope Benedict is German.

Story continues below…

Benedict also drew strong criticism for overturning the excommunication of Williamson and three other bishops in the Saint Pius X Society.

Denying that the Holocaust took place, or questioning key elements, is illegal in Germany and Austria.

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Your comments about this article

13:07 April 14, 2010 by William Thirteen
another charmer from the clergy...
13:35 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
...And another compelling reason for Ratzinger to pack it in as pope.

BTW, Spiegel online did a great piece about this Williamson character a couple of months ago. It's worth searching their archives to find it.
13:56 April 14, 2010 by twisted
If I were a Catholic, I might consider rethinking my religion....perverts, liars, criminals...is there more to be revealed in the future?
14:05 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
"....perverts, liars, criminals...is there more to be revealed in the future?"

You ain't seen nothin' yet!
15:39 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
Free speach anyone! Why is it that this topic is protected by law anyway..whats there to protect? The numbers have always been in question and the Red Cross reviewed conditions of the camps regularly. Since disease starvation from Allied bombings where the cause of much suffering and death not including the 25 million innocent Germans slaughtered by allied forces its no surprise they want to keep it secret. The price was paid 60 years ago by the murder of 25 million so Germans have the right now to question anything they want as they paid with their blood. As far as religion is concerned we are eternal spiritual beings and religion hides our true self...just another means of control. But when religion is destroyed as a game plan and we are not enlightened to our true spirituality then we will all become materialistic selfish slave surfs to a one world government if we make it that far with no morals to speak of...we are almost there already. As for perverts liers and criminals what do you think of your masters now. And dont take this the wrong way but we all have masters..their is no such thing as democracy, voting etc in any country...thats tooth fairy fiction.
15:43 April 14, 2010 by Heinz-Reg
One needs to ask themselves, why is "EVERYTHING" in the world up for debate. There is only one subject that is against the law to question and that is the holocaust. I don't believe people are saying it didn't happen at all. They just don't believe that the numbers are right. What is there to hide????
15:54 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
Because there are stupid people in the world who believe everything they hear or read. Tell them it didn't happen and they will believe it and it lessens the importance of it.

Oh and seeker4u, what complete BS. So all aethiests are immoral and and selfish are they? Mankind doesn't need religion or a false belief in a higher power to behave morally. Society can take care of that on its own. Human kind ahs self preservation built in and this is undermined by any individual trying to dominate. Over time the requirement to work together dominates.

I don't know why this is such big point now. It has nothing to do with who the pope is. The catholic church has always had these issues but due to media coverage today they are more widely visible.

Religion is not being destroyed as a game plan (but I'm happy for it to be so) but both from within and an increased knowledge of how our universe works. Not by design but by natural laws.
16:47 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
Gaffers you must be bonkers! Aethiest are also scum who are most likely to be without any moral reprehension behind their actions. You cant knock religion and claim Aethiest are better as you are birds of the same feather in belief systems which are not by your creation..if you can understand that. Just because religion was developed as a control method but no longer required just proves how thin the control vail really is. Aethiest are completely closed minded as well and it just goes to show you people bounce from one extreme to the other reflecting that without complete control and knowledge they don't know what end is up. But life takes great study and discovery to find the real truth which you obviously haven't done yet....lazy... lazy!

Spiritual beings are what we are and this is what been hidden for thousands of years and practiced by very few enlightened souls, but I am not here to give you answers you should have sought out yourself as you are not ready or deserving of it.
16:54 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010

Would you care to translate your unintelligible rants into some known language and then support your absurd opinions with some facts?
16:58 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
:-) Fool. What do you base your assumptions on? You make some outlandish claims but based on what? An aethiest is someone who does not believe in any god or higher being. HOw or why are we spirtual beings? Why does not believing in a god make aethiests immoral in their actions? What PROOF do you have?

As a "spiritual" being you are very condemning of others. Very enlightened. That's the problem with religion of ANY kind. It sets people above others. You prove that point with your inane rantings...
17:01 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
Here is one for you Gaffers, lets see if Rabbis of Judaism would get similar attention for lesser incidents than above.....not. You wont find any news criminal Rabbis and there are many in the papers anywhere in the world and if it does appear its immediately buried, but Catholics and Christians have any issues it becomes global news much like white on black crimes are news but not black on white crimes which are substantively greater world wide by a very wide margin? Why are some exempt and others get a free pass? Because the Aethiest are supported by Judaism who will do anything to eliminate Catholics, Christians and Muslims perhaps? Yea those Aethiest are good certainly a god send to Judaism of course only until Judaism comes under attack!!

So at the end of the day you still a pawn by someone else' s hand and not your own.
17:06 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
You are truly deranged. You are not spiritual in any sense of the word. You only want to attack others. You have so much anger in you that I would suggest therapy.
17:07 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I often marvel at the fact that those who claim to be the most religious are invariably the least tolerant, least open-minded people on the planet.
17:10 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
With you there Prufrock....
17:16 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
What proof do you have or base your assumptions on.

Actually Gaffers if you and me where in the same room together you would sadly feel inadequate by the woman's and ok the mens vote as well so lets not go there for your sake. Quite sane too.

Religion sets those above others not spirituality as we are all equal when the body dies. There is no one to answer too, priase etc. Just a connection to pure thought.
17:18 April 14, 2010 by romber58
@ seeker4u

It is certainly ironic that you dont recognize the hate in your own heart.The hateful, ignorant (i can imagine the expression on your face as you type ) outpourings that you have been accusing others of having.You sound like any normal fanatic ---full of himself and deaf to any other.
17:21 April 14, 2010 by bernie1927
Why is this man being persecuted in the first place?

He is definitely not a holocaust denier, he only questions the accuracy of the numbers. Wasn't the terror attack on Dresden investigated recently? What would be the harm in doing the same thing with the 6 Million number? But I guess logic goes out the window when it comes to the holocaust?
17:29 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
Funny rombar58 you sound like your full of yourself. I can imagine your face (i just made myself sick) when your typing out your lack of knowledge on any subject.

I am not religious. I don't have hate in my heart either didn't say that. You believe what you are conditioned to believe and I explore the reality of it all.
17:30 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
Ah bless Seeker. Continues to provide no facts at all and continues to put others down. My proof of your hate and lack of mental stability (as others have picked up on too) is in your writings. Jews are in league with Aethiests, Blacks are favoured in the media over whites, I am inadequate, 25m Germans slaughtered by allied forces (approx 1/3 of the population at that time !!!!), all aethiests are immoral self serving scum. Worst of all he denies the existence of the Tooth Fairy. Unforgiveable !

He talks about pure thought but spouts pure nonsense...
17:42 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010

Um...Williamson definitely IS a Holocaust denier. Among other things.

If I had the link to the Spiegel article I would provide it, but it should easily be found in Spiegel Online's archives. It's quite a good piece of reporting.


If you're seeking for me, please stop. Seek for yourself. You clearly have a lot of seeking to do. Seeking accurate information might be a good place to start.
17:49 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
To be fair denying ANY Jews were killed in a gas chamber is kind of denying the Holocaust. Stating it's all lies, lies, lies also supports that he is in denial....
17:55 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
Sure boys the media is absolutely correct and would never misquote......and incedenlty needs to be proven first prufrock....but that wont happen as its BS media spin.

I am only condescending to you retards (sorry if the truth hurts) as I know your idiots looking to put down this mans right to free speech/though be it good or bad.

Nice comment Gaffers since the case is closed and not open for discussion idiot.
17:57 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Here;s the address of the Spiegel article on Williamson:

18:10 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
Free speech but we are all retards for discussing intelligently with facts. Does anyone else find his constant contradictions laughable?

(Next part directed towards those allowed to use sharp implements unsupervised)

Free speech has it's limitations. Complete and uncontrolled expression which has the ability to cause pain or suffering to others is not good. It is difficult to know where draw the line admittedly. When should free speech be restricted. In the above case I do not consider it meant to be beneficial to society to stir up agitation on a subject such as the Holocause. What was the purpose behind his comments is the real issue. In the UK incitement to hate is illegal and certain radicals have been prosecuted for this. I fear his motives were less than innocent. For me that is the issue..
18:11 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
I dont know Prufrock how do you manage to stay?

Good one, now you have decided whats right and wrong when its just a matter of his personal beliefs and journey.

Looks like Prufrock is showing his true colors and condescending ways.
18:16 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
"Looks like Prufrock is showing his true colors and condescending ways."

That's the first thing you've posted that's true.
18:23 April 14, 2010 by Gaffers
I propose from this point forward we all ignore any postings from Seeker. Then he will soon get bored and go away and the rest of us can continue to discuss like grown ups...

All in agreement say Yea !
18:38 April 14, 2010 by seeker4u
I don't think the man is violent so whats his free speech going to hurt? Are we to soft to take it in stride? Just like the 25 million women/men and children murdered by bombings on every city in Germany nobody cares at the end of the Holocaust. Many more have died in other wars which don't have laws regarding their discussion that dwarf the Holocaust by a wide margin and nobody cares regarding these opinions and they get so little media attention? Boohoo.

So why the laws and why is it so important that what this man says needs to be condemned in public when I see and here much worse in the media, news internet etc everyday?

He has neither been proven to be a danger to anyone but that of popular opinion and draconian laws in Germany and Austria that most disagree with. And regardless what happens they will destroy his life forever and they will beat him on all fronts for the rest of his life.

But, nooooo your not a condemning bunch at all!
20:05 April 14, 2010 by wxman
Holocaust deniers are the second most vile group of people on Earth, just above those who make speech a criminal offense.
20:15 April 14, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Certain speech is, and ought to be, a criminal offense. In the U.S., where I come from, the First Amendment right to free speech is not absolute. Hate speech, for instance, is not always protected. Nor is libelous speech. Nor are "fighting words."

Having said that, I think that criminalization of speech that denies the Holocaust is not the appropriate response. Those who deny the Holocaust reveal themselves to be either incredibly ignorant or nazi sympathizers or both. I think it's better to let them indict themselves and reveal their true characters than to force them underground. This despicable goddamned priest is no exception.
02:27 April 15, 2010 by proclusian
@Prufrock2010: There are probably at least 10 reasons why Ratzinger might pack it in as Pope, as you put it above. The case of this scoundrel Williamson is not one of them, however. I realize the man is insane-making, but please research the background on Williamson and his case within the Church before you lay the blame at Ratzinger's door and imply that he's done nothing. This article from February 5, 2009, would be a good start at getting yourself up to speed:

02:56 April 15, 2010 by Roman Odessa
The Bishop is right, not one Jew EVER died in a gas chamber, its all made up! Its the biggest Jewish lie ever concocted. The gas chamber was built at Auschwitz by the Russians AFTER they liberated the camp. Yes some Jews died in the work camps but they were by no means the 6 million number. Can any of you explain why the number of Jews that were supposed to have died at Auschwitz has changed on the plaque in front 4 different times? Great thing we still have FREE SPEECH here in the great United States of America.
04:42 April 15, 2010 by deutschamer
I agree with Prufrock2010. As an American I am shocked that it is illegal in Germany and Austria to deny the holocaust, and no, I am not a holocaust denier.

Making any opinion, no matter how outrageous, illegal is a slippery slope.

They will be seen for what they are. Making it illegal just brings them notoriety.
04:44 April 15, 2010 by tdm3624
It's disturbing that believing in a lie (ie. the holocaust never happened) is considered a criminal offense.
05:07 April 15, 2010 by janreg58
Thank you Roman Odessa!
09:06 April 15, 2010 by Gaffers
Changing a numbers on a sign is hardly evidence the holocaust never happened. That is not a basis of fact driven discussion. Far more likely is that accurate records were never kept so to put a number on the deaths is very difficult.

As mentioned Free Speech is fine. Spreading lies and trying to cause a great tragedy to be buried is not.
10:35 April 15, 2010 by freechoice
Wasn't there tonnes of pictures of Jews suffering in Auschwitz on the internet? Why did he made such claims?

Anyway isn't it strange to let neo nazis elements masquering as right wing nationalists running wild in Europe, while at the same time prosecuting an ignorant bishop for questioning the holocaust?

This is one crazy world indeed..let's not get those athesists involved please!

They are so religious and upset about not believing in God!
10:56 April 15, 2010 by Gaffers
Hey leave us Aethiests alone. We are all sad about being selfish and immoral and waiting for some one to show us the the true way. We need something more in our live and science doesn't cut it !
16:47 April 15, 2010 by Prufrock2010

Thanks for the article. I read it. It is now 16 months later and the pope still hasn't done a goddamned thing about Williamson because he's afraid of a schism with the right wing Piux X Society of the church. Check out this article.

17:49 April 15, 2010 by Talonx
Firstly, I agree with those of you saying that all forms of speech should be protected.

But let's look at the specific example of hate speech. Hate speech is a form of personal or collective intimidation for the purpose of marginalizing and hurting another person or people. Most nations have laws against such harassment (e.g. the US has such laws regarding racism and sexism in the work place), in Germany and Austria these laws include holocaust denial, understandably so, considering the history of these two nations.

I would say that if you accept any restriction of speech along these lines than what Austria and Germany do to deniars is purely sequeter and in line with litigations against other forms of hate speech.

Finally, just to clear it up for the other deniars that are on the board. Auschwitz was called an extermination camp by the Nazis. The Wansee Conference, its purposes and definitions, have been confirmed numerous times by nazis as well as further documentation by researchers following the war. There are witnesses, mass graves, even corpses with evidence of asphixiation by gas inhalation.

Without exception those that deny these facts, or even the conservative ball-park estimate of 6 million are either uneducated regarding any of WWII or malicious d#cks out to further some sort of white power agenda. Either way you bring nothing to this discussion excepting your ignorance and the disgust of the rest of us who have actually studied this stuff. It's really as simple as that.
18:24 April 15, 2010 by proclusian
@Prufrock 2010:

Thanks for the link to the Spiegel article. I had not read that yet, and it only increases my distaste, not only for Williamson but also for the SSPX. I'm unclear, however, what you mean when you assert that the pope still "hasn't done a goddamned thing" about Williamson. The claim made in the Times link I sent you is as follows: "A note issued by the Vatican¦#39;s Secretariat of State said that Bishop Williamson would not be in full communion with Rome and could not serve as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church unless he did as instructed (i.e., recanted)." As I read that, this means he's suspended and, while not excommunicated, at least not in full communion.

I'm not saying it's enough, but it's not nothing, is it?
19:14 April 15, 2010 by wenddiver
I think if we fail to establish Free speech, yes including goofy, insane speech that we American GIs have failed in our whole mission in World War II. It's not enough to militarily defeat the NAZIS, you have to establish a country FREE enough where the rantings of the insane are minimized by their exposure.

Our Constitution protects unpopular speech, because popular speech is always protected. Free Germany should be a marketplace of ideas, both good and bad, and they should depend on the inherent good and intellience of their people to choose.

In the end, that is what's best for the world. Look at Britain every day Muslim clerics call for the destruction of that country and every day the British Armed forces defend their right to do that ignorant action, but if and only if they actually break the law and harm somebody do they act against them.
19:21 April 15, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ proclusian:

It's as good as nothing, in my view. Williamson is living in Wimbledon in splendor that would make a prince blush, all on the church's dime. Meanwhile the ultra right wind SSPX faction is growing exponentially, if we are to believe that Spiegel piece (and I have no reason to doubt it). I doubt whether Williamson gives a rat's @ss whether he's "in full communion" or not. His defiance only galvanizes the SSPX crowd.

Ratzinger's record of dealing with troublesome clergy is suspect, to say the least. Cardinal Law of Boston was whisked away to Rome during the massive sex abuse scandal that he oversaw, and placed by Ratzinger at Santa Maria Maggiore, the second largest basilica in Rome, in palatial digs and a $12,000 per month stipend.

Either Ratzinger the Rottweiler has authority over Williamson or he doesn't. I don't buy his excuse that he didn't know that Williamson was a Holocaust denier when he rescinded his excommunication. It was his job to know.
05:27 April 16, 2010 by proclusian

Hm, as good as nothing? Okay, so what, specifically, would you like the Vatican to do, beyond what they've already done, in the Williamson case? Which of the possible penalties not already assessed, available to the Vatican under canon law, should be assigned in this case? You seem to me to be expecting the Vatican to act like some sort of corporation or business entity -- in which case, they would have just sacked Williamson last year already and thrown him to the wolves. It seems to me that's akin to expecting a pig to bark like a dog.
11:24 April 16, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ proclusian:

The church IS a business entity, run by an autocrat who has unlimited authority within that organization. He declares himself "infallible" on issues of faith and morals. If this is not an issue of morals, what is? A pope with cajones who was not a nazi sympathizer himself would have excommunicated Williamson again and made it stick, instead of hiding him away in luxury like a retarded cousin to royalty.

But Ratzinger doesn't have cajones, and his embarrassing comments about Jews and Muslims indicate that he suffers from the hubris of the seriously delusional. The only question in my mind is who is more delusional -- Williamson or Ratzinger?
20:49 April 16, 2010 by Rhett
I agree with you Bernie 1927. How many? That is a legitimate question. The number has been "officially" changed several times. There is a great difference in six and six million. The answer is obviously somewhere in between. What's the accurate number? With any event that is studied, broadcast and ballyhooed as much as the Holocaust, we deserve an accurate number.
00:07 April 17, 2010 by Talonx
There will never be an accurate number (for reasons to numerous to name) beyond "at least 6 million", you're just gonna have to deal with this conservative ball park estimate.
02:57 April 17, 2010 by proclusian

I'm no canon lawyer, but you can't just toss about excommunications willy-nilly.

My wager is that, if you consulted with a canon lawyer, he or she would tell you that, as morally reprehensible as they are, Williamson's Holocaust denials are not grounds for excommunication, as much as we might like them to be. The RC Church is a corporate entity, but is not a business, and so can't sack at will.

As for Ratzinger, the man promoted and habilitated in the German university system, so he has some modicum of brains (read, e.g., his debate while still a Cardinal with the philosopher Habermas to see him in this light). Granted, he has a worse-than-tin ear for PR, and is a horrible administrator, but I don't think he's either delusional or a nazi sympathizer. Unless we're dealing with a Ronald Reagan-type scenario here, where he actually has early onset dementia. But then that would be another matter entirely.
12:55 April 17, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ proclusian:

I'm not a canon lawyer, either. Just a plain, old retired civil litigator from California.

The Catholic Church is definitely a business, but it is not a corporate entity. It is a sovereign entity, with Ratzinger the sovereign of the Church as well as the Vatican, which is a sovereign nation. The Church has no corporate shareholders or board of directors. It is not registered to do business as a corporation in any jurisdiction that I am aware of. As the sovereign, Ratzinger rules by papal fiat. He can indeed excommunicate at will, without anyone else's approval. Granted, there are canonical procedures in place for such events in most cases, but they can be unilaterally overridden by Ratzinger at his sole discretion.

In fact, Williamson had already been excommunicated for his so-called apostasy vis-a-vis his involvement with SPXS, and was in that status at the time he made his statements denying the Holocaust. Almost immediately after he made these statements, his excommunication was unilaterally rescinded by Ratzinger, who later claimed to be unaware of the remarks.

I don't dispute Ratzinger's academic credentials or intelligence. I challenge his morals, his ethics, his political views and his right wing agenda, and I agree that he is a horrible administrator. If he weren't the so-called "spiritual leader" of more than a billion people, Ratzinger would be just another utterly irrelevant academician. Unfortunately he wields great power -- socially, politically and spiritually -- and must be held accountable for his acts of commission and omission. I personally hold him accountable, and it appears that the rest of the world is beginning to hold him accountable as well. At least I hope so.
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