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German MPs suggest cash-strapped Greece should sell islands

AFP · 4 Mar 2010, 13:47

Published: 04 Mar 2010 13:47 GMT+01:00

"The Greek state must sell stakes in companies and also assets such as, for example, unpopulated islands," Frank Schäffler, a member of parliament for the pro-business Free Democrats, told the Bild daily.

Marco Wanderwitz, an MP for Merkel's own conservative Christian Democrats, said Athens should provide collateral for any money it receives from the European Union to help it out of its debt crisis.

"In this case, certain Greek islands also come into question," added Wanderwitz.

"We give you cash, you give us Corfu," the Bild commented.

Greece has around 6,000 islands off its coast, of which only 227 are inhabited, according to the country's National Tourism Office website.

The cash-strapped country Wednesday launched a fresh round of draconian austerity measures in a bid to rein in a ballooning budget deficit that is more than four times above EU limits.

Story continues below…

The Socialist government increased sales, tobacco and alcohol taxes and cut public sector holiday allowances to save €4.8 billion ($6.5 billion), equal to about two percent of gross domestic product (GDP). Pensions in the public and private sector were also frozen.

Merkel is set to hold talks with Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou on Friday to discuss the situation in Greece.

Your comments about this article

14:09 March 4, 2010 by Jim09
haha that actualy sounds too good to become reality.
15:19 March 4, 2010 by MYSTARZANGARTRZ
Preposterous! The terrorists would snap those islands up with drug money and set up stations to nuke strategic targets in the west.. Horrors.
15:27 March 4, 2010 by LancashireLad
More likely those politicians want some of the islands themselves to turn them into luxury hideaways or holiday islands. With Gereece's current economy they would be going cheap. Hell, I might even look at the possibility myself ...
15:28 March 4, 2010 by Kev-lar
Dutchrev; you should be our president! What a great idea. Now, can we possibly sell NJ and NY? New Mexico and Arizona back to Mexico and we have ourselves a balanced budget!
15:30 March 4, 2010 by Dena
Oh wonderful! I bet some central banker figured that one out. Use money stolen from citizens to buy the citizens' country.... yea, great idea. I hope the Greeks are dumb enough to fall for this!
15:30 March 4, 2010 by chimpansi
Superb idea. I guess it applies to Spain & Portugal as well... Countries with bit of cash and who r about sink due to global warming can buy these land and benifit...

@Dutchrev.. dont compare USA to Greece. If americans introduce VAT like Europe they can fix all the their problems.. if they start charging VAT like scandanavians they cud fix their problem and start buying half of Europe.. US is still and always be a dynamic economy..
16:03 March 4, 2010 by nickel
Ah, the fatherland on the Adriatic. Once again we see the value of socialism. Who would have thought that our elected socialists would end up screwing the very people they claim to represent? Oh, wait that is what all SOCIALISTS do all the time.

We here in the US have yet to learn how to bow and scrap to our elitist leaders but with Obamies help we be getten there real soon.

Soon we be selling that Californie state to the Japanese as a beach resort and New York and Michigan as game preserves.

They will come fully stocked with sheeple and leaches, since that is all that is left in them now that the people with an ounce of common sense left right after the Progressives passed their healthcare scam.
16:29 March 4, 2010 by DocLogic
Once again, like a moth to a flame, Germany draws ever nearer to destiny. Unable to dominate with her sons (having none), Germany will dominate with the gold stolen from the children never born, creating a motherless monstrosity known as EU.
16:41 March 4, 2010 by bugger
I wonder why with the beauty of the Greek Isles the paper used a picture from Cabo San Lucas, Mexico.
17:17 March 4, 2010 by PhilBetter
I don't understand. Greece bankrupts their economy just like we Americans did(By we I mean the whores of wall street). Now they want a bailout. (just like wall street) THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH. If they (Greece) have assets to sell or put up as guaranty then so be it. If they don't want to; that's fine: JUST STOP ASKING FOR HANDOUTS. The EU "WAS" a good idea for a while but, now you all can see that a few bad apples will ruin your orchard. We are no better. This world is on running on borrowed time.

Blessings,

Phil.
17:20 March 4, 2010 by Frantz
Good job by Merkel and the Germans for saying no to Greece. The problem is government workers unions. The Greeks should get paid for 14 months of pay for 12 months of work. German taxpayers are supposed to subsidize this? I sure wish we in America had people with common sense like Frau Merkel and most Germans.

If you run up debts, you need to pay the money back. Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal need to start paying off their debts as well. Can we sell you Obama? He makes great speeches with his teleprompter.
17:24 March 4, 2010 by interloper5
I think they should at least they could get property tax for it, I mean its hard to pay for a government when 2 out of every 3 citizens is a government employee like the way Greece is
17:31 March 4, 2010 by stony creek
Great hyperbole Dutchrev! Unfortunately, your rhetoric doesn't jive with the facts. California is THE most productive state in the US. We here actually produce things that the rest of the US and the world can use. California leads all other US states in manufactured goods (twice as much as any other state), non-manufactured goods and re-exported goods, not to mention the vast agricultural sector that produces food for the US, as well as the leader of and exporter of software technology, the same technology that allows you to post your rant.
17:34 March 4, 2010 by alwaysbeenproud
SELL California? Heck, if China, or Mexico, would take it off our hands, many Americans would be willing to give it to them for free. We'd still be money ahead.

High taxes and fees. Sanctuary cities for criminal, illegal aliens. Rampant crime in all major cities. A public education system in ruins. What's not to like?

"Welcome to California - a lot like Greece, only poorer."
17:46 March 4, 2010 by KingLeonidas
Molon Labe !!
17:54 March 4, 2010 by Thames
After all the US had to do to steal Cailifornia, now you want them to sell it.

No way! They should sell Washington DC to the Chinese Communists they deserve each other.

As far as the Greeks selling some islands I am sure the Turks will take some off their hands. Maybe than the Turks can send their extemists there instead of to Germany.
18:08 March 4, 2010 by berlinski
What a great idea for Germany. Instead of Germans paying rent for holidays on Greek islands, they can own them instead. At least it is a far better way for Germany to acquire real estate than the one they tried 70 years ago.
18:28 March 4, 2010 by Lemmy Caution
California - I live in California and I've travelled inGreece.

1 California needs to follow Greek immigration policy - this would save 8-10 billion per year.

2 California has significant petroleum and natural gas resources just offshore that are not being used. Leasing drilling rights would produce an income.

I have a 170 degree view of the Pacific - Catalina to Malibu and am 3 minutes from the water's edge. 5 or 6 oil platforms offshore within my view (and I doubt the need for so many) would remind me that the huge tax bills I face every year are not money down the drain. California needs to use its natural resources and cut the size and scope of its government. California is being held hostage by environazis.

Period - problem solved.
18:31 March 4, 2010 by rdk
It is a splendid idea. On a similar vein, California should reactivate its vast off shore oil resources and drill with great vigor. Of course, neither will happen because common sense does not rein in this world.
18:39 March 4, 2010 by pumpkinpunker
We should sell Texas to pay for the 3 trillion dollars the Iraq war cost while Bush lowered taxes on the rich many times using reconciliation votes. I guess he thought the money would appear out of nowhere while the working class fought two wars for him.

It's suddenly amazing to see fiscal responsibility reenter the Republican's lexicon after 8 years of not hearing it once under Bush.

PS Don't forget that a Republican governor drove California into record setting debt also.
18:44 March 4, 2010 by Porsche
That's another way if Greeks choose to do so, as long as Germans are not allowed to purchase the islands...

As a matter of fact, Germans should sell all they have in order to pay the damages to..well, the World. Instead the World propped them up and helped them in their time of need so they can become big and strong again and, yes, continue Hitlers dream using very economic power they were so generously helped to build by, amongst other people, Greeks.

Those who say that we should have burned Germany down and salted the land might be onto something.

What an arrogant nation Germany is.
19:01 March 4, 2010 by GLondon
You have to be kidding...

Germany should dig into it's pockets and restore the immense wealth their forebears stole from the Greeks...

What, sell islands to Germany? Why don't we instruct Germany to sell their land to the Jews for oh...say ten bucks? Now THAT would be progress...
19:34 March 4, 2010 by anotherGreek
I sell a nice stone from a Greek island.

It's coming inside a blue can with fresh Greek air and sun beams.

Estimated value 1 trilion euros.

Disclaimer:

The buyer should be German.

Offer expires as soon as you read it.

We accept cash deposits.

Can be exchanged with their country.
19:37 March 4, 2010 by EnoughWaste
WAIT ! It's not a radically bad idea when you think it through. I thought it was crazy at first but the islands would remain under Greek jurisdiction. The islands would be developed under Greek construction and development laws. It would be same as someone buying a property to build his house. Governments sell property, as well as islands, everyday. All in all, it's not a bad idea and would raise billions of euros. The islands would remain Greek, only the owners would pay taxes and hire people to build houses, resorts, businesses, etc.
19:53 March 4, 2010 by Lrichard4387
The Great State of North Dakota, which has a surplus and no debt, could buy California to cover its debt. We send thousands of snow bird citizens every winter. The snow birds could teach the state goverment how to operate in the black. We have been drilling for billions of barrels of oil in North Dakota, so we have a robust economy. We also burn coal cleanly to make electricity to sell to your nieghbors to the south and east. Our farmers grow food which 60% is sold to foreign countries to help lower our trade balance. Our unemployment is well under 5%. We teach our children that they need to take personal responsiblity for their lives. So when they complete school they find a job to pay their on way. What a novel idea!!!!!! Oh by the way, the Republicans have been running the state the last 18 years. It is amazing what "COMMON SENSE" can do when it is used!!!
20:04 March 4, 2010 by EnoughWaste
The government needs revenue and this is a valid way to raise money. Think ! Only the land is sold, not it's sovereignty! The California government is having funding troubles and has sold land in the past and is considering to sell more properties. The article says Greece has around 6,000 islands off its coast, of which only 227 are inhabited. Over 5,700 islands are not inhabited! When people buy an island, it would be developed and people hired. Maybe new energy sources would be found and developed under lenient environmental laws. (Pollution would be minimal or non-existent if development is done carefully with strict cleanup penalties) I'm sure not all of the islands would be touched so local endangered species would be minimally disturbed. Revenues would be raised from all these ventures! This would be a total Greek initiative and other countries would not have their hands on Greek issues. A win-win situation.
20:24 March 4, 2010 by skyrunner
I'm from Texas, great idea to sell it. In fact, how about letting us (Texans) buy it, and we can be an independent country. 5.2% unemployment, plenty of oil and gas, high tech industry. We are quite an asset. I think if you want to sell something, it better be California.
20:28 March 4, 2010 by alwaysbeenproud
@pumpkinpunker: Get a clue.

#1. Arnold isn't a Republican. He may have an (R) beside his name, but he's a socialist Democrat. #2. All the spending in California comes from the union thugs, teacher's unions, the illegal amnesty crowd, and Democrats who have controlled the state legislature for decades. Republicans have no say in the spending in California. Do some reading before making statements that show your ignorance of the issue.

Liberals and illegals in California have hijacked the state and that's why you are $40 billion in the hole. You cut your deficits in half by sending all the illegals back home. But you won't do that. So you are SOL.
20:40 March 4, 2010 by jjd777
California receives only 78 cents from federal govt for each one dollar it sends to Washington.

If we're going to sell off some states, it's better we sell some of those parasite states in the north-east that demand (and get) subsidies from the federal gov taxpayers.
20:41 March 4, 2010 by TominLA
@Dutchrev, Great idea!

However, by your logic we should sell off the Red States where all the hard working Real Americans live, because we will fetch a much better price for that real estate and its contents. Then, the Red State folks can get to work for whatever their new owners decide to pay them and they can move up economically the 19th century old fashioned way, free of all the Blue Staters holding them back. Plus Red State departure would end the flow of tons of cash worthless CA pays into the federal government with a third of it disappearing largely to Red States. No doubt all you Red Staters out there will sleep better being relieved of the guilt you surely suffer from perennially picking our pockets.

See ya.
20:45 March 4, 2010 by CaliforniaGDP
@ Dutchrev

Do your research before you post trash. California has a GSP of nearly 2 TRILLION dollars. California also is a bit more than 10% of the USA GDP. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. You fail.
20:57 March 4, 2010 by jjd777
Following up on my earlier post, here is the latest available list (2005) -- a partial list -- re which states are the biggest parasites (eg, New Mexico gets $2.03 back from feds for each dollar sent to feds) - States with figure less than $1.00 are the over-contributors (ie, the dumbells).

New Mexico $2.03

Mississippi $2.02

Alaska $1.84

Louisiana $1.78

West Va $1.76

N. Dakota $1.68

Alabama $1.53

S. Dakota $1.53

Kentucky $1.51

Virginia $1.51

Montana $1.47

Hawaii $1.44

Maine $1.41

Arkansas $1.41

Oklahoma $1.36

S. Carolina $1.35

Missouri $1.32

Maryland $1.30

Tennessee $1.27

Idaho $1.21

Arizona $1.19

Kansas $1.12

Wyoming $1.11

Iowa $1.10

Nebraska $1.10

Vermont $1.08

N. Carolina $1.08

Pennsylvania $1.07

Utah $1.07

Indiana $1.05

Ohio $1.05

Georgia $1.01

Rhode Island $1.00

Florida $.97

Texas $.94

Oregon $.93

Michigan $.92

Washington $.88

Wisconsin $.86

MA $.82

Colorado $.81

Delaware $.77

Illinois $.75

Minnesota $.72

NH $.71

CT $.69

Nevada $.65

New Jersey $.61
20:57 March 4, 2010 by tattooing18
IF YOU THINK YOUR CENSORSHIP AND OTHER GOEBBELS'S TACTICS ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU WHAT YOU CAN'T GRAB WITH YOUR USELESS GUNS ... YOU'RE FAR BEHIND ...

YOU BETTER STAY IN YOUR CAVE AND DRING SOME MORE BEERS, AND AFTER YOUR HANG OVER, WE CAN SPEAK AGAIN ... TILL THEN....

DREAM ON !!!!

BUT HAVE THIS IN YOUR FROZEN BRAIN ....

IF YOU WANT THEM ...

COME AND GET THEM .... !!!!
20:59 March 4, 2010 by gagaou
I believe this MP had said the same thing about Majorca 10-12 years ago. He needs new ideas. Germany buying California sounds more interesting.
21:11 March 4, 2010 by CaliforniaGDP
@ gagaou

You just like dutchrev, have no clue about economics. Check your facts, Germany has over 5 TRILLION in debt. How in the hell would Germany buy California, you fool.
23:08 March 4, 2010 by pianori
DO ANY OF YOU FOLLOW WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON IN GREECE RIGHT NOW? THEY HAVE RECENTLY DISCOVERED NEW CRUDE OIL RESERVES IN DIFFERENT ISLAND locations IN GREECE.

The whole point is for Germany to selectively purchase islands so that they can extract oil. Sneaky move from the Germans, but most Greeks know about it. Currently the talk in the streets is ¦quot;…hell we rather starve to death before we let our land fall to the Nazis…, just another perspective for you to consider. Another though is for Greece to process the oil themselves. In fact that is on the table right now.

Any way, some food for thought.
23:51 March 4, 2010 by Major B
Ah Americans, loosen up a little bit!! Who can cite the reasons why Napoleaon sold the Louisiana terrritory to the Americans? Yeah, to raise funds... to pay up some debt and go off and try to unite Europe. I so remember the days when the Papandreou(Greek PM in the 1980's) would rachet things up and blame the Americans (and the Turks) for every little problem Greece faced. Here No money to pay government workers.. blame the Americans. Getting criticized from the opposition political party.... the Americans are starting it. The U.S. military facilities were miniscule, but they acted like it was a major occupation. Then, the Cold War ended, the Americans left, and there were no Americans to blame for their ineptness. Let's see if Germany falls for this stategy of diversion?
00:51 March 5, 2010 by anotherGreek
all these talking proves that EU is a piece of rug.

...and it would be torn apart.

for now we should burn some euro in bouzoukia
01:01 March 5, 2010 by baltog
Good morning my european brothers! Good morning even the east germs who became" europeans" 10 years after me!!! I;m a greek neurologist and I offer free sessions to all of you!! (ever the eastgermans). I practice epileptology in a private hospital in Athens. Ipay every year 100.000 euros taxes to the greek state (because paradoxicaly I declare EVERYTHING Igain from my practice). I spend my hollydays in my castle in the island of Naxos (cyclades) making small trips with my boat around the Aegean. My children's babyseater is a German (veeeery disciplinate!!) and the cooker (yes the cooker!) of the boat is erman too (veery disciplinate!!). I dont feel ready to sell even A ROCK of MY Archipelago to a...east german (slave of stazi-10 years ago macho-mucho). I enjoy my life in this superparadise (the others calls greece) and I dont give a f..ck for your anal (Freudien) fixatios! You have to know my brothers that I.."I" dont have in my pocket NULL blody german eurosent!!! I wish you good night (I leave tomorrow for Naxos) AND becarefull YOUR TAXPAYERS HAHAHAHA!!!!
02:28 March 5, 2010 by TominLA
@jjd's table of State leech/host cash bleed ratios is informative.

That table further supports the idea of selling some of the Red States instead of California. West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Oklahoma and Arkansas should go on the block first. That way we get cash up front, and improve our future cash flow too, by shedding some of the leech states. Kind of like selling Chrysler to Daimler AG. Hey, maybe Daimler would go for this deal too -- it does come with some serious real estate.
03:41 March 5, 2010 by 1FCK_1FCK
Countries around the world have been forced to sell their utilities, especially water, as a condition for IMF or World Bank money. This results in tremendously expensive water for people too poor to pay, in addition to neglected maintenance on water pipes because it's not profitable.

Selling Greek islands is along the same lines. It's a corporate grab in collusion with nation states. Don't believe for a second that there isn't a sinister motivation behind these calls for Greece to sell islands.
06:04 March 5, 2010 by lausen889
Pretty soon the U.S. will be in the same position as Greece. The deficits are out of control and the non-funded promises are coming home to roost. See www.InflationSurvivalSecrets.com -- massive spending, cynical economic policies and coming hyperinflation.
07:47 March 5, 2010 by Doretta
IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW GREECE IS O N L Y 2% OF THE EU ECONOMY.

I DON'T THINK GREECE WOULD BRING DOWN THE EUROPEAN ECONOMY.....

MS MARKEL KEPT A BLIND EYE WHEN THE PREVIOUS "CONSERVATIVE"

ADMINISTRATION WAS RUNNING THE COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND.

AS FAR AS BUYING THE ISLANDS THE GERMANS TRIED TO TAKE THEM OVER IN THE SECOND WW.

WHY INSTEAD OF BUYING THEM GO IN THE SUMMER AND SPEND THEIR EUROS TO BOOST THE ECONOMY................BUT OOPS.......THE GERMAN TOURIST IS CHEAP!!!!!!!!
08:23 March 5, 2010 by Metodiev
Full support for German proposal. Greeks all the time complain and want money - for years they play tricky game between Europe, USA, Russia...

Through the whole history they were against Germany - check any history book, and now they want money exactly from German government. That's what people call -impudence.
08:23 March 5, 2010 by Heyyysshey
hey's, THATS A REAL GOOD IDEAL! SO GOOD IN FACT IT SHOULD BE USED TO SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI CONFLIFT, PAY THE JEWRY YOU THREW OR FORCED OUT OF EUROPE AND SUPPORTED THEIR LAND STEALING! LET JEWS HAVE BAVARIA AND SURROUNDING AREAS( SUCH AS LIGHTY POPULATED AREAS OF OTHER GERMAN STATES BORDERING WHAT TODAY IS CALLED "BAVARIA")! JUST I THOUGH, K KTHX
09:09 March 5, 2010 by crete
Here in Crete we have some land for sale!It's a location called Maleme.There is a german cemetary there from the WWII!Who the hell needs the Nazi's graves in a such a beautiful island?Let's sell them or send them where they belong!
09:42 March 5, 2010 by stefan18
Ha!ha!...after I read the spiegel I realise now why there is a big boat load of brits coming here....
10:12 March 5, 2010 by bee buchie
G'day, Yasus,

Australia Scottish Lassie

with a billion lovable Good Greek friends in the most beautiful peaceful country in the world AUSTRALIA.

Well, well, well, well, the Germans, the Germans, my Dad, my Captain Australian Dad World War 2, my American Uncle, France, 19 years old, etc, etc, etc, say no more, my dear elder Greek friends, say no more, ok the GREEKS don't need to sell anything and just you GERMANS LAY ONE HAND ONE HAND ON PEACEFUL CHRISTIAN GREECE AND YOU JUST WAIT IF YOU WANT YOU CAN BUY MY COUNTRY AUSTRALIA OR YOU CAN SELL YOUR HITLER HITLER HITLER HITLER COUNTRY GET RID OF YOUR RACISM COME TO PEACE THE GREEKS AND THE AUSSIES DON'T NEED YOU OR EUROPE SO STOP THIS RACISM JEALOUSY YOU WILL ALWAYS BE JEASLOUS AND IF YOU DON'T WATCH OUT MAYBE YOU WILL ONE DAY STOP YOUR GERMAN JEALOUS STOP IT RIGHT NOW. THE GREEKS, THE PEACEFUL COUNTRIES, THE NON RACISM COUNTRIES ARE VERY VERY GOOD SO LEAVE OUR COUNTRIES ALONE GREECE CAN PAY FOR THEIR OWN LOVE SO COME AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT DEBTS, AND WHO OWES WHO AND JUST BE VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PEACEFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD GREECE AND AUSSIE AND YOU GERMANS SHOULD JUST LOOSEN UP AND BRING IN LOVE AND GIVE TO THE GOOD REMEMBER THE GREEKS NEVER STARTED YOUR RACISM PEACE AND GOODNESS AND GOD BLESS
10:48 March 5, 2010 by bavar
bee buchie

you are right

Unfortunately it seems that some Germans are still racists.

I live in USA and i share the same opinion with you.

These crappy jokes from German politicians show arrogance and Germany seems to forget their evil past once again.

But you know how it is going to end up.

They always lose
13:28 March 5, 2010 by Fredfeldman
I like bee buchie's style:

IF YOU GIVE ONE CENT TO THAT MISBEGOTTEN GREEK EXCUSE FOR A NATION YOU CAN TAKE MY GERMANY AND STUFF IT SIDEWAYS SO THAT THE EU CAN NEVER AGAIN HAVE ANY HOPE OF SELLING ANY OF ITS CHILDERN TO AUSTRALIA TO WORK IN THE SALT MINES OF PERDITION AND NAZI BANKING SECRET SOCIETIES. MAYBE ONE DAY YOU WILL STOP YOUR JEALOUS AND RACIST ARGUMENTS IN FAVOR OF MY FAULTLESS LOGIC WHICH ABSOLUTELY PROVES THAT THERE IS A VAST CONSPIRACY AGAINST THAT MOST BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY ON THE AGEAN WHICH IS ONLY TRYING TO LIVE AND PEACE AND PROVIDE ITS PEOPLE WITH FREE HOUSING AND HIGH PAYING JOBS DESPITE THAT FACT THAT THERE IS NO MONEY FOR EITHER.
14:12 March 5, 2010 by trueman
greece was under german occupation during World war 2 and germans stole all the gold from the national bank of greece leaving it without money and people starved, young children died every day from starvation.

in 1990 greece lend germany 60 billion euros which germany never returned to greece.

Now, germany says thank you.
14:15 March 5, 2010 by johnnybegood
Evil men have the land issue figured out. Wild horses have had Federal land set aside, land which coincidentally covers massive oil shale deposites. Not hard to guess whats going to happen when China asks America to pay it's debts.
15:33 March 5, 2010 by dyad2R1
It's a great idea. Another great idea would be for the Catholic Church to help the poor by selling off the Vatican treasures and all it's real estate holdings throughout the world. Did not Christ say: "Sell all that you have and give to the poor?"
16:12 March 5, 2010 by tigersgrowl
It is always a cryin' shame that anyone (individual or country), and please, I am not picking on any one specifically or personally, has to be forced into selling it's property but as many historical documents say, prepare for the future, don't assume that if you have money, you are rich because one storm, and I am speaking in mediphores here as well as actual storms, can take away anything that holds dear to one's heart... that could include property, loved ones, or even the simplified way of life that one has lived for years. Never-the-less, Greece's economic state determines it's status on this planet, it';s government hopefully will make better decisions in the future, and as we all know, but often do not think about, an island is not like a building, it cannot be torn down and perhaps one day, in the distant future, Greece and purchase the islands back if it's next generation has a heart for Greece's history. That is all for now!
16:31 March 5, 2010 by trueman
in a couple of years all europeans will sell everything for a piece of bread.

you don't really know what follows so stop blaming greece.

greece is only the beginning.

germany knows that, and that's the reason they don't give a cent back.

Just wait patiently for your turn.

We all see that european economy collapses day by day.

Millions of euros disappear daily from our countries.

Have you ever wandered where those millions go?

Laugh while you still can.

You will see...
17:09 March 5, 2010 by DICKERSON3870
RE: German MPs suggest cash-strapped Greece should sell islands

MY COMMENT: Yes indeed! I imagine Goldman Sachs would be interested in acquiring some of them 'on the cheap' in a big 'fire sale'.
18:55 March 5, 2010 by katerinamoutsatsos
Well, I don't mean to support Greece, I am Greek but somehow I know that our governments (thus us who vote) are majorly responsible. BUT if Germany gives back the Gold Hiltler stole in the second world war... It would cover most of the debt.
20:36 March 5, 2010 by GEORGIAV
First things first. How about the Germans return all the gold and everything else they stole from the Greeks during WWII. Greeks should sue the Germans for all the damage they cause to Greece. And then lets talk about Greece's financial crisis. Greece has put up with allot, between the Turks and the Nazis but at the end will always survive.
23:51 March 5, 2010 by stefan18
trueman:Laugh while you still can.

You will see...

ha!ha!ha!ha!!!!haha!!!!!!!!! NO ! i don't laugh because of greek.I laugh because of the" hippies" puddling their boat to germany.HA!HA!...............
00:30 March 6, 2010 by exbrits
Stop blaming the german of our misfortune, because the reason why greek is in bad condition now is not because of the war long time ago,it's because of mismanagement , the same of our govt. in my own country

Germany is also from rugs/from nothing...but because they are good in managing that's why they become rich and powerful.Although germany is also not in perfect condition now.

We just try to look the future what we can do, instead of sourgraping what german had and what we don't have.
00:44 March 6, 2010 by FrankBloomberg
Needless to say that such comments only show the primitive but arrogant nature and thinking of Germans. Thought they were dump. Now I also think they are pretty damn stupid. They say they work hard but do they live any better than the Greeks? Hmm... Perhaps dump people always need to try a bit harder.

To me Germans were always representing the hidden shame of Europe. No one likes them, no one wants them in his land. Not even as tourists. So this summer: please do stay home. No one has invited you and your fat bellies + white socks/sandals (cool huh?) anywhere...STAY HOME!
00:50 March 6, 2010 by Xristina_aa
exbrits: germany build it's economy with stolen money
01:28 March 6, 2010 by Thessaloniki4
Greece has been pilfered enough through the ages, by the Roman Empire, by the Venetians, the Turks, the Germansby the British, U.S. etc. How about returning the natural treasures of Greece which is her heritage of ancient ruins, if all these countries returned all that has been stolen from Greece's past, and compensate Greece for having stolen them that definitely save Greece's economy, starting of course with the Elgin Marbles after all, the museums that these exhibits are in charge a fee allow the public to view them. Now let's see we are talking over 2200 years.
07:37 March 6, 2010 by exbrits
Xristina_aa...

Germany started from nothing with the financial help from USA they started to work hard with a good management from their government and good descipline from the people that's why they become rich and powerful.Japan in Asia , Germany in Europe. Both countries can be a good example for other countries.With the economic crisis now everbody is affected,but it's not good to bark or blame germany of what we experienced now, because if you look other countries including mine who suffered so much of the crisis the cause is not germany ,the cause is curruption, mismanagement of the gov't and sometimes also the people who live beyond their means.That's the real truth why we are all in mess.
12:53 March 6, 2010 by Storyteller
I wouldn't expect anything less from a representative of a nation that ignores the meaning of national pride and restlessly tries to forget its shamefull past..

Greece came to the verge of war over such a "small uninhabited island" in 96' with its troublesome eastern neighbours...A "piece of rock with a goat herd" as loosely Mr. Clinton had mention in his memoirs (Btw, this is the quality of comments you get from someone who thinks with the wrong..."head".. ;-) )

So, given the above, my answer would be "I don't understand your proposal"...highlighting the chaotic difference in mentality and spirit between German & Greeks.

Not everything can be sold out in the name of "financial stabilty, economic growth", and other macro-micro alchemies dictated by this ultra illusive economy model...

Every single bit of this land was earned and defended through blood and endless sacrifices for which we still pay the consequences.. It's NOT a comodity, it's a SACRED HERITAGE owed to be preserved in the honor of our forefathers' memory..

If Greece is to sink...it'll sink as a whole...together with the 6,000 "rocks"..yet free and independent, a feeling, the nobelty of which no man who hasn't experienced long centuries slavery will appreciate..

So, the Greeks are well aware of their problems, their setbacks and deficiencies... What they certainly don't need is suggestions and proposals from people who not only they don't share the same core values but also, have a significant share of responsibility to most of the maladies that have infected this proud corner of Europe...

A little humbleness (and better sense of humor) wouldn't hurt..
14:01 March 6, 2010 by Stef34
Which part of "We don't want your money, only your political support" didn't you understand?

Or is your bias too great to handle and be objective?

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought I was talking to unprejudiced individuals who would only laugh at the Bild's comment that Greece sell its island and the Parthenon, not take it seriously and promote it even further....

From all I've been reading all these days I can't help being puzzled by your ignorance, bias, taunts and short-sightedness in respect to your attitude towards Greece.

How can you possibly have unequivocal assumptions about the living conditions in Greece when you have no freaking idea what is actually going on there.

Have you tried living on 700 euros per month when EVERYTHING but the rents are higher (sometimes outrageously) than in Germany? Why do you taunt people who struggle 12-15 hours a day to make a living and know that their future is a blur.

Have you any idea that the overwhelming majority of the Greeks want a transparent state? That we had no F.....G idea what was really going on behind our backs for so many years? That noone had warned us (the people) how bad things were and now we'll have to buy our gas higher than you? Do you really think we knew all this and we didn't care? No. We knew that things were bad, but we hadn't the slightest idea on the extent of the problem. Our politicians lied to us.

We have been screaming for political and economic transparency for years now, have been lied upon this time and time again......this Papandreou seems to be want we have all been crying for : NO CORRUPTION

I have something new to you : the majority of Greeks -you know the subhumans worthy of your teasing, the ones who are one the verge of poverty- DO pay taxes.

I'm not saying that there haven't been cases of embezzlement.....and you have every right to be angry because a lot of your money were made to disappear by some cunning politicians.....but keep this in mind : the politicians are to blame, not the people. But because politicians are elected by the people I do accept my share of responsibility and I am ready to pay for my mistakes. So is the rest of the Greek people, ......devious, corrupted and shrewd according to you.

Why do you allow the media to shift your focus where they want? Instead of focusing on the motto : "Greece will get no money", why don't you focus on the other side of the river which says : "WE DO NOT WANT OR ASKED FOR YOUR MONEY".

We do have our shortcomings; just like you. But we are not the monsters they have made you believe we are. I never misused one cent of the euro money we got, and neither did 98% of this country's population. I'd love to see the 2% who did in a court of law.......and so does the rest 98%.
16:30 March 6, 2010 by stopsurfing
There are a lot of haters of Germany on this forum, something which I find strange. My impression of Germany is that it has faced it's shameful history in a way that perhaps no other nation ever has before. They educate their children (to the nth degree) on the holocaust and the scourge of hitler and Nazism. They rebuilt their country not with stolen money but with help from the US (the Marshall Plan). They are hard workers and diligent savers and have only recently started being proud of their country and their flag again (in a good way). They have spent a lot on bringing the old DDR up to the standard of the West and are one of the healthiest and strongest economies of the EU. So take it easy on the Germans okay, they're great people albeit human like the rest of us.

So, what should happen about Greece. I don't think it should be left to go bankrupt, that would perhaps (probably?) lead to civil war in Greece and destabilise Europe. I think the best solution would be an IMF loan, as these would come with strict requirements on what and how things need to change to get out of this mess (and stay out of it in the future. I don't think the EU would want a bunch of Americans to bail out one of their members (too embarrassing) so I suspect it will come from them. One thing it should not be is an easy bail-out, it needs to have conditions and measures attached that both help Greece and, at the same time, discourage Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc from expecting an easy ride should they be next (and that is a real danger - Spain's Zapatero is living in a fantasy world at the moment, trying to solve Spain's economic problems through more deficit spending). Other options include Germany exiting the Euro-zone, letting the weaker, less well run economies to sink or swim, or to simply let nature run it's course and hope that the Greek government get their sh*t together. One thing I know is that deficit spending comes at a price and unfortunately Greece is going to have to pay it.

Regarding the opinion that Germany should pay reparations for WWII, I think that's another issue, that could have (and should have been) settled through the courts long ago. Just because the nazis were mean isn't a licence for Greek politicians to mismanage their own economy. They need to deal with corruption and find ways to stimulate economic growth. That's my 2 cents
17:17 March 6, 2010 by wassermelon
All this hatred comments to Germany very obvious a "Sourgraping".It's like somebody who are in the muds and get jealous that others still above of them.

Leave alone the Germans ,think properly how to get out from the muds then wash yourself .

You know what I mean, act like germans then you can be proud again.
19:58 March 6, 2010 by Storyteller
To wassermelon:

No buddy, you got it all wrong...It's about being profoundly insulted by narrow-minded and "poor humor" suggestions regarding Greece selling of its hard liberated islands...

This is what this forum is all about and this is what the critisism is all about..

Germany has indeed an examplery economic model, which i don't suppose that was built up on sovereign soil sell offs..
21:05 March 6, 2010 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
This thread has turned into incomprehensible gibberish.
02:28 March 7, 2010 by tattooing18
WHEN GERMANS ARE PROUD FOR THEIR ACTS???

WHEN THEY GET OUT FROM THE MUD???? ... AND SPECIALLY, WHEN THEY GET WASH ?!?!?!?!

YOUR FATHERS ARE NOT ONLY COWARDS, POULTRY THIEVES, AND WAR CRIMINALS, BUT ALSO GRATE LIARS !!!!

AND YOU DON'T GET HAPPY WHEN WE DON'T ASK FOR WHAT YOU HAVE TO PAY, BUT YOU SAY LIES ABOUT WE ASK FOR YOUR BLOODY MONEY ...

MAYBE NOW YOU HAVE TO SELL YOUR COUNTRY, TO PAY YOUR DEPT TO ALL EUROPE NATIONS ... JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE ARROGANCE AND YOU HAVE A VERY BIG MOUTH ...

.... MAYBE "PROUD" IN GERMAN HAVE THE SAME MEANING WITH "HUMILIATION" .... AS WE CAN SAY WHEN WE SEE YOUR NEW NAZI YOUTH ....

YOU'RE GOING TO BE SURPRISED .... ONCE AGAIN !!!!

.... DON'T FORGET ... EVERY TIME YOU FEEL "SO PROUD", THEN YOU SAY ... "WE'RE SORRY !!! PLEASE HELP US TO BE A NATION AGAIN" !!!!

...HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE TO LOOSE AND BE HUMILIATE, TO LEARN FROM YOUR GRATE MISTAKES????

.... WHITE SHOCKS AND SANDALS, CHEAP JOKERS !!!!

SLAG - HAIL ! ! ! !
04:32 March 7, 2010 by Thames
@bee buchie

The Aussies are so peaceloving and not racist?

I guess all the natives your peopel killed doesn't count.
08:29 March 7, 2010 by exbrits
Leaving UK to Germany is the best decision that I made throughout my entire life.I love the german people,the country and my future is safe here.That's all I can say.I hope my own people will not haunt me.

For the greeks, I hope you can tackle your debt problems.I also observed reading all the comments from different articles, also in the forum it's not all about a certain issues, it's all about an inner hatred to germans.

But sorry to tell you, that's the truth in life that we have to accept.Germany is still above (us) from all other countries especially here in Europe.Accepting the truth is no problem for me.
09:00 March 7, 2010 by wassermelon
I will stick to what I believe,people who hate Germans are just jealous of what we have..Don't give any excuses...just so obvious why you always don't feel good and put your bad feelings here ...Sourgraping?????? I feel sorry of this kind of people.
09:10 March 7, 2010 by locally
After the 2nd World war,when it seemed there was no hope,America and its allies stood by them(Germany) despite their atrocities till they got back on their feet.

Years later(now) their own fellow Europeans ask for their help and the answer is what we all just heard which stands to tell how wicked and heartless this people are.

Where is the LOVE...The love we should be sharing and preaching.

I am glad that at the end of every life event history always tells the full story and its account-Maybe History would say that Greece asked their friend and ally(Germany) for help and they coldly turned them down and advised them to sale or give in return for help their island(s)-(What a history that would make).

Hope Greece would rise real strong on their feet again.

My heart reaches out for you all.God Bless.
09:43 March 7, 2010 by allhappy
wassermelon,To be specific,the only thing that makes me to like you guys a little bit(not sure if I do like you at all) is what you guys have got,and am sure many will tell you the same thing.

In case you don't know 9 out of every 10 foreigners in this damn country have nothing good to say about you people.

Maybe you guys should start building a good reputation from your own country.

I don't give a damn about you guys cos you are the coldest people I have ever seen,and what one of you said(the damn minister) is an example of what you guys are capable of doing,how cold and mean you all are.

Out of all the beautiful names in this world the only one you could found as a username is WATERMELON.That shows how little and senseless your brain is.

Maybe too much watermelon have covered your reasonable senses and made you to write that unreasonable statement.

Reasonable people learn from their mistakes and try and build a good reputation but you guys don't seem to be reasonable enough to learn from your mistakes.

Maybe the only way to give you all a reasonable manner is to line you all up every morning and woop your asses.
10:24 March 7, 2010 by stopsurfing
@tattooing18 I love it! Poultry thieves! I live in Germany and while I don't have any poultry personally, if I did I would feel sure that they would be safe from light-fingered German poultry thieves - perhaps they all died out, along with the old Nazis and third reichers. Please give us a break. Acknowledge the past, but don't wallow in it, it helps no one, least of all yourself.
22:44 March 8, 2010 by tattooing18
@ stopsurfing

WE KEEP SURFING ... AND UPS !!!! LOOK WAT WE FIND !!!!!

1000 pages with neo nazis !!!!

you know .... you can say these lies in your german friends, who are very happy when thay believe that, all the others we're stupid ...

you can push the garbage under your carpet, is your choice ... but don't complain when we cal you "stinger" ...

for the poultrys, don't "play" the "high class" with me, and don't forget that your father chasing poultrys in my country to feed his hunger ... if you don't know, or if your father is in shame to tell you ... is your pathetic problem, not mine ...

and this is nothing in front of the rapes and the execution of children ,,, or the grabbing of everything they see ...

so ... don't play the stupid when i call you poultry thieve, because this is what you're in the consciousness of all europe. OR THIS IS ALIE ALSO ??!!!!

if you forget, you're going to pay my dear, AND THIS IS WHAT IT HELPS NO ONE, LEAST OF ALL YOURSELF !!!!! AH???

AND IF YOU START SURFING AGAIN ... CATCH THIS ...

THE BERLIN'S BIG MONEY PROBLEM ....

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1983556,00.html

SO ... MY DEAR ... AS YOU CAN SEE ... IS NOT PAST AT ALL ... IS PURE PRESENT FOR YOU ... BUT YOU USE TO USE YOUR CARPET AS STORAGE !!!!!!

HEHEHEHEHEHE

AND NOW ... LOOK HOW PATHETIC AND HUMILIATING YOU CAN BE ....

THIS IS THE FINANCIAL OF THE CITY OF ATHENS ... READ AND CRY

http://www.cityofathens.gr/el/node/10447

SO ... MY .... "PROUD"..... WHO'S THE ONE WHO MUST SELL?????

HOW MUCH FOR THE BRANDENBURG'S GATE???? (WITH THE SWASTIKA...)

IF YOU DON'T KNOW IT, ACROPOLIS IS IN ATHENS, AND AS YOU SEE ATHENS HAVE AN EXCELLENT "A1" RATTING .... WHAT THE "GRATE BERLIN HAVE??? A "Z111" RATTING ?!?!?!?!

WELL DONE.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!

IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE SMART FIND A GERMAN .... MAYBE YOU HAVE SOME LUCK THERE !!!!!

HAVE A BAD, COLD NIGHT !!!!!
13:50 March 10, 2010 by stopsurfing
Hi tattooing18,

Just to make one thing clear: I'm not a German, I'm from New Zealand and come from a working class background (my father sheared sheep, and didn't chase chickens). My Grandfather fought in WWII (on the side of the Allies) and came back with a very low opinion of war in all its forms.

Thanks for the links, quite a good comparison between an almost bankrupt Berlin and a financially high-rating Athens. I don't support frivolous suggestions by German politicians that Greece should sell off some of their many islands, but I also don't support the ongoing hatred towards Germans that I see in your posts and the posts of others. When i said "acknowledge the past, but don't wallow in it", I didn't mean that we should forget WWII, Hitler and Nazism, on the contrary, we should remember it as best we can and do our best to ensure that it never happens again. We should, however, let go of our resentments and not blame others for our current problems. I say that it doesn't help ourselves or anyone else if we do that, it just traps us in victim mentality and we continue to be ruled by the past.

p.s. I think we all had a bad cold night, it's bloody cold again isn't it...
08:06 March 12, 2010 by tattooing18
@ stop surfing ....

o.k. my friend .... know that i have many German friends, but i'm not the kind of person who knows how to bow.

we never have a hate for germans, before or after their atrocities here. in the village of "distomon" where the nazis are execute even the infants, today in the entry of the village there is a statue of a warrior and a sign "well come our german friend".

but think, who we feel now when we see them again to show their unearned hate against us, even when we don't befool the damages as the courts award??? their hate is like a complex against us and is not funny at all. they mast understand and fell this in their skin for us.

when the go out of the line again, and they speak like they do, we have to make them remember their history, and show some respect at last.

i like history not as a lesson, but as a fact where you can see the future. the true is that fighters from new Zealand who are in our side in ww2, never grab anything and they're brave warriors and gentlemen the same time. who can say something like that for the germans and how they understand the word "war", and tell me if this is not showing their temperament. WE'RE NOT HAVING THE APPETITE TO SPEAK FOR , IF THEY DON'T SHOW THIS TEMPERAMENT FROM TIME TO TIME.

but tell me, do you know that we have bavarians kings here till lately??? do you know the way we get here?? MAYBE FOR YOUR NATIONS ALL THESE THINGS ARE "PAST", BUT FOR THE GREEKS IS "NOW" MY FRIEND. i know this is weird for you, but is the clear truth, that many nations are involved till now in our politic, AND MAKE US POOR AND WEAK.

read this if you will.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4bede68a-2aef-11df-886b-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1

look friend, i'm the last one to say that we're not the most peculiar case for a notion. every day i have this talk with many people here, and i show them my anger for this, my desperation and i told them many ways for us to be better and pass all the bad habits. BUT we don't need the opinion of people who the only thing that they do right is to collect money ..... we're not good in many things but we have ETHOS, FILOTIMO, AND DIGNITY.

ANOTHER THING THAT YOU HAVE TO KNOW IS THAT, GERMANY IS TRYING THIS WAY NOW TO MAKE US ACTIVATE A ACCORDANCE, AND MAKE US PAY TO BUY THEIR GUNS, AND THEIR SUBMARINES. AND ALL THIS BECAUSE THEY PUT, AND THEY ABET THE TURKS AGAINST US (FOR 100 YEARS NOW)..... I THINK YOU'RE CLEVER ENOUGH TO FEEL THE BLACKMAIL OF THE CASE.

TAKE CARE
15:48 March 12, 2010 by Braam Kemp
I fully agree that the German MP made an offensive joke and that the German press responsible for the insulting and generalizing articles on Greece should apologize.

I am horrified however at the vile and nonsensical comments posted by you black hearted people against Germany.

"That's another way if Greeks choose to do so, as long as Germans are not allowed to purchase the islands..."

"Those who say that we should have burned Germany down and salted the land might be onto something."

"What an arrogant nation Germany is."

Porsche, if you really think suggesting there should have been an institutionalized genocide practiced against the German people during/ after world War 2, killing 60+ million people makes you morally superior? Such thoughts put you merely on par with the Germans in charge of the camps. You are the arrogant one.

Has no one ever told you not to generalize? If a man kills your kids will you go and kill his kids out of revenge? Anger and hate and punishment must be directed at individuals actually responsible for a crime. Arguing that an entire nation should be destroyed/punished is crude and outdated reasoning.

Since Allied bombers destroyed most of Western Europe during the war, it is only fitting that the Western powers contributed some money to the build up of those areas.

You people argue and reason as if you believe that the world wars were the first and only wars ever fought. At the same time you Englishmen are completely blind to your nation's own past- its history of incessant warfare across the globe. England tried as much as any other eligible European nation did at some point to dominate the continent. Constantly getting involved in its conflicts to destroy its stronger powers so you cold be the continents arbiters and so everyone cold speak your language, as opposed to say, French, German or Russian. By the way, how did English become the International language? How come English people inhabit entire continents today? did those things fall from the sky? No, slavery, genocide and war ensured these privileges to you.

Everyone that could, attempted to build empires at some point or other. In fact, it was bound to happen that one group of people would rule over the world. And that group of people turned out to be the English. So do not slander other nations for playing the same game as you, be it France, Germany, Japan or Russia.
16:14 March 12, 2010 by Hercule
I have no hate towards anyone on this planet, but you ignorant people, hating on Germany and dealing out death and judgement left and right are hypocrites and simply awful, awful human beings.

Why can't Germany demand reparations from France for the Napoleonic wars? Or from England and France for setting them back a hundred years thanks to the 30 years war?

How far back can we go? Has Iran paid reparations to the Greeks yet?

Go ahead and masturbate over the British armies trotting the globe and Alexander and his pillage and conquests and at the same time hate Germany for following in your footsteps. Besides, if Britain had not robbed Germany of all its colonies, overseas possessions and not entirely annihilated its entire international community and culture through the use of virulent hate-inciting lies and propaganda during the First World War, maybe the Second World War would not have happened?

You have no ground for your hatred. You are Hypocrites. Walking around with hate in your hearts will only cause unpleasantness and miserable people to be drawn towards you forever.

I am not even sure if the nazis did steal gold from the Greeks. As far as I know, it was removed from Greece before they took over. I know that Greece was forced to buy bonds and loan money to the Reich in exchange for bonds and shares that would become very valuable after the German victory. Ensuring wealth once the German occupants left the country. But as I said, I am not sure.

Killing innocent men, women and children and destroying property as retaliation was an unforgivable act committed by the Germans during the war. That was another form of generalization, which is what you people are doing by slandering German people today, many of whom are just as ignorant about the war and their nation's own historical grievances as you are. In other words, they have nothing to do with their past, so get off their backs.

If Germany does still owe justifiable amounts of money to Greece, then it should be paid and I am sure it will be, if it is possible.
18:19 March 12, 2010 by allhappy
Braam Kemp,shut and plaster up your damn poisonous nazi mouth.

Hercule-Put your head between your legs and kiss your gestapo's ass.

Do the math-how many people were in the first and second world war-more than 70Million.Thats not included the more 50 million Jews you people roasted like chicken,slaughtered,buried alive and murdered in cold blood.

Tell me in history where people were locked up in camp and been used as lab rats and fire woods-in Auschwitz.

And here you damn fake ass alligator shoes are comparing your Devilish nazis with the history instead of building a good reputation and learning from your mistakes,damn douche.

Maybe you should imagine someone you love with your heartless heart being roasted,then maybe you will know how much it hurts and how much more it hurts for those little children to die in malnutrition,hunger,diseases and your damn experiment.

They were Human like you and I,They were Men,damn nazis.

People learn from their mistakes but you idiots don't learn and thats why you still have those ass neo nazis running round your darkest streets beating up people from developing countries.

Have been around the world but I have never seen such cold hearted,mean and wicked people like you people.

What kind of Human took his own fellow Being as pre Human who was not worthy to live.You did.

Wasn't surprise by your damn minister cause it would be unlike you heartless beast to say otherwise.

Only God knows which race you would have targeted as sub Human after the Jews had you won the war.Probably you would have murdered more than 60 World's population by now.

Maybe you don't know as you people rarely go to church,We are all Human created by the same God.

Probably lining y'all up and wooping your asses every morning won't help with your corrupt mentality,applying origianl salts straight from the sea would help a lot,danm gestapo nazis.
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