German bigotry shifting from race to religion

I am theophobic. I think all organised religions perpetuate delusion and ignorance. In criticising a group of people because of their religious preferences I am criticising their rhetoric and choices. Social harmony is paramount; every person should be held accountable for the consequences of the ideals to which they subscribe. For example, a Catholic should consider how their religion leads to the perpetuation of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, a Jew should consider the consequences of the Zionist movement on the stability of the Middle-East, and a Muslim should question the impact their religion has on gender equality. Similarly a Nationalist should not support their country above others without acknowledging the heinous crimes often committed by nations and governments. No group is immune to criticism, but that criticism should be based on determinable truths and analysis, not blind prejudice.

the ironic submission to the aum ...a twisted offshoot of Hinduism mixed with Zoroastrianism ..WHICH is the old GERMANIC religion-literally from the germanic tribes who immigrated out of upper europe around 8000BC-TO IRAN IRAQ TURKEY and the UKRAINE....

ZURUCK ASTER...back wards star.....chief god HOR aus MAZDA...MASSE tthe germanic double SS has a Z sound......its the old word for THE BODY...so islam is in reality the archaic GERMANIC religion of submission to the body....which is a neanderthalic concept ESPECIALLY for the women-the ovarian imperative-HA

all of that archaic caveman stuff is a riot....

but and there is a BUT in germany we have MERKEL who waves her academic scientific credentials in ONE hand and then kisses the popes behind and support the so called CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS what ever that is ....

since the cult of the mirror of venus ...the circle with the cross beneath is ALSO based on 10,000 year old concepts of sky gods and a FOREVER AFTER.....

time to tell the idiot german people there IS NO EVER AFTER them and the AMERICAN idiots ...only THEN by leading by EXAMPLE can other people be free from that archaic stone age idiocy ....

cant have it both ways ...when the west says ..oh YOUR WRONG ...only OUR stupid stone age belief system is real only OUR ever after is real...

time to be adults people

@icariot

Nice articulation, very stream of consciousness.

BTW ....they pray to MECCA...simple transliteration...MESSE..the body- same as este in latin .....

in mecca there is a GIANT CUBE..... derivative from THE LOGOS the greek concept of logic depicted as a CUBE...ARABIC ka aaba MEANS CUBE....

from an OLDER GERMANIC WORD LOGE...which means A BOX.......

the word survives as a kino seat in the theater

it is an ALTERNATIVE SPELLING of LOKI......the trickster fire god of the germanic people

his attribute-words-plays on words-spiels-what is the LOGE? ITS THE ARCHAIC ENCRYPTION method of HOW to make letters-RUNES and words

all from ancient germanic scribe slaves sold because they where UNDERSIZED...runts....usless for the warrior tribes of the north....

and now THOUSANDS of years later there legacy comes back to vex the very people who sold them into slavery in the form of warring religious ideologys

Icariot: You're right! If the Islamic religion is really associated in any way to the Neanderthalic medula oblangata, then they became the Jibber to the Jabber then the Jibber Jabber jabbered some jibber and all the jibber jabber that ensued made the jabbers jibber even more. I know, right! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

@All_of_u

It has been long since we had such an intellectual debate, especially about Islam. Only when I think I could not be surprised by anything anymore, comes human stupidity to make my life more interesting.

The biggest problem is those researching do not get in to details and historical back ground of religion Islam. According to the prophecies of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) it is evident, a time will come when the religion Islam will only be in papers. So called Muslim religious scholars will be the worst creature on this earth. All Muslim will be Muslims only by name and not through real Islamic deeds. To cure this menace prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophesied appearance of Imam Mehdi (AS) who will revive the real teachings of Islam. Time period was also prophesied round about 1400 years after the emergence of Muslim prophet (pbuh). Exactly as per His prophecies things are unfolding. Muslim are suffering due to their un Islamic deeds. So called Muslim Scholars are considered as the worst creature on the planet. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian India, in 1989,claimed to be the prophesied Imam Mehdi and founded his community known as Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. It is now led by his 5th successor Mirza Masroor Ahamd. According to the prophecies of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) revival of real Islam is possible only through Imam Mehdi. Claimant Imam Mehdi, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad prophesied he will get majority acceptance round about in 300 years period. 123 years have already passed and Ahmadiyya Msulim Community gradually is spreading and reviving real teachings of Islam. Currently it has presence and saplings almost in 200 countries of the world. In Germany community relative to its small strength is in the forefront to construct the mosques. Its members are fully integrated in the local society and never ever any German has complained about the societal,social or religious behaviour of the members of this community. Even in high echelons of politics and religion the interpretation of Islam offered by this community is very much liked and accepted. Recently the community head spoke in Capitol Hill of USA and also in European parliament.

Many readers may not like it but this what truth is. Revival of real Islam is a phenomenon which has to occur in whole world and its revival has been knotted to Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. As long researchers all over the world will not divert their attention to this important aspect they will keep on predicting wrong outcomes. In case some one is really interested to know more about this fact can visit www.alislam.org.

@Edin: You have to know that an intellectual debate on this will not be had here. But, I am willing to try. As an American (who has lived in Germany for 5 years - on and off, and visits Germany often) I can offer my thoughts on this. First, I think it is intellectually oppressive and dishonest to say that not wanting to see the Islamic culture in Germany (or in any country outside of the Middle East) is bigoted or racist. I know the article doesn't address this specifically, but it gets to the root of the problem. I think we do ourselves a disservice to try to make all the world into a homogenous entity rather than allowing the diverse cultures to flourish. Egypt should not have to accept western architecture, fashion, Christianity, Atheism or customs any more than Germany has to accept Islam. Tolerating the practice is one thing, but being forced to fuse other cultures into the uniquely German one is wrong. It's wrong to the German people who may want to retain their culture. There is nothing racist about that. When I visit Germany, I don't want to land in Munich or Frankfurt and feel like I am in Turkey or in Bucharest, Romania. Germany should be allowed to be Germany just like Iran should be allowed to be Iran and Brazil . . Brazil. The integration of the immigrant to the host nation is very appropriate and when this isn't done, the people of the host nation have every right to be upset. The upset individuals will take that frustration out in many ways (good and bad). Although, there are a lot of good Islamic people that do integrate well into German society, there are many that don't (the Salafist). If they have no intention of living in Germany and within that cultural context ("When in Rome, do as the Romans do"). Then they should never have come and should either leave or be deported. This may not be true in every nation though. I live in the USA and we don't really have a "culture" that is unified, but rather the integration of various cultures (past and present). But, for Germany - I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to stay German. This can be done with Muslims, Romanians, or Americans . . . as long as they respect and assimilate with the German culture/society.

Correction. In my previous comment the year is 1889 and not 1989 when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian India calimed to be the prophesied Imam Mehdi.

Interesting, no surprise . Islamophobia in the western world in general, not just Germany.

I hope they can provide us with some reasons why, people do not as a rule become phobic for no reason.

Islamophobia is very strange when it occurs in countries with large Islamic populations. You can see it in the USA, but there are people that are afraid of their own balls here (in the USA).

Some if it is just non-factual, irrational, low-IQ hate.

I don't see what some people are trying to prove by comparing old root religions with today's religions. It's clear to anybody interested in religion and spirituality without bias, that christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism, share many of the same basic concepts and in many cases they seem to feed from each other. But today it is a different story, the old knowledge and the old values of religion are twisted. They are corrupted, they were corrupted by people and they corrupt people today. That is why we don't find common ground and that is why we fight each other. The idea that we have today of incompatibility between spirituality and science is a consequence of the corruption of religion, rather than being an obvious and necessary condition. Remember that in the past, great mathematical and scientific developments were achieved by the hands of muslims.

On today's world we have reasons to be weary of muslims because they give us reasons to, because today there is a kind of "muslim inquisition", because there are sects within their big community capable of killing and destroying, because these people have a problem with the west and with other faiths, because although these people hate our western christian societies, they take advantage of our hospitality and tolerance, they still come to our countries, sleep in our houses, eat our food, use our hospitals and schools, enjoy what the western civilization has achieved and still, they want to impose their culture in our houses and threaten us with terror if we say 'no'. Consequently, nobody should be surprised that we have second thoughts about dangerous medievel-minded minority groups hidden within the muslim society. We have the right to defend ourselves against this barbarism.

@ Bulldawg82

You say that countries should not accept a specific religion? You would feel better if you would not see in Munich people that do not look German (coloured people for example)? You want immigrants to be culturally assimilated (not integrated)? Hmm, that's pretty far from what the German constitution says. Freedom of faith and conscience, equality before the law ("No person shall be favoured or disfavoured because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith, or religious or political opinions") are basic rights in Germany. I thought they are also basic rights in the US.

An immigrant has the duty to respect the German laws and to learn decent German (B1 level at least). It does not have to give up his/her religion, language, political orientation, cultural traditions and values. A Romanian can stay Orthodox, an Irish can still celebrate St. Patrick's Day. Why on Earth would want somebody that the Romanian immigrant becomes Catholic or the Irish immigrant does not speak English anymore? If they obey German laws, they are allowed to live their life the way they feel like. At least this is my Berliner perspective.

@ChrisRea. I think you have misunderstood me. I don't think anyone should have to give up their religion. What I'm talking about is the refusal to assimiliate with some cultures in the host nation. Switzlerland not allowing minarets or France not allowing the face to be covered are good examples of the host nation not forsaking their laws/society to accomodate Islam. But, nations allowing Salafists to immigrate when they know that their intent in never to assimiliate, that is another story. There are many aspects of Islam that is just fine with most cultures (German included) and does not make the integration difficult. I did not mean to imply that nations shouldn't accept other religions, rather that the host nation should not have to accept the religious or cultural aspects of those immigrating if it goes contrary to theirs. The Host nation should have this right without being labeled racist or phobic.

@Bulldawg82 "I did not mean to imply that nations shouldn't accept other religions, rather that the host nation should not have to accept the religious or cultural aspects of those immigrating if it goes contrary to theirs."

I see. So everybody in Germany must conform to mainstream German religious and cultural views. What about native born Germans who reject those views? Do you want to send them off to reeducation camps? Exile them? What?

@mitanni

Ummm . . . Please re-read what I posted. You typed: "So everybody in Germany must conform to mainstream German religious and cultural views" . I'm not saying that at all. I used the Switzerland's decision on minarets as a case-and-point. The Swiss wanted their skyline to be Swiss and felt that minarets are not in line with this - so don't allow it. They have every right to do so in order to maintain their Swiss distinction. This has nothing to do with religious practices - just aspects of the society they left, that may (or may not) be in conflict with what their host nation seeks for their own national identity. If native born Germans, Swiss, or any other nation reject what the majority of their culture likes, then they can contend with their own particular democracy (if they have one) and solve it democratically.

@ Bulldawg82

Ah yes, the famous Swiss progressive-minded approach. Is not Switzerland the country where in 1990 it was still not legal for women to vote? It was not that they did not give up a law to accommodate Islam, but that they came up with a ban. So I suppose you would find it normal also if they would not allow black people to get the Swiss citizenship, right? After all, you do not want to think of Africa when you are in Bern, do you? And it is not at all racist, is it?

"the host nation should not have to accept the religious or cultural aspects of those immigrating if it goes contrary to theirs." - Indeed, why should the Turkish immigrants allowed to be customer-oriented, when that is contrary to the well-known concept of "Service-Wüste Deutschland" (Germany - the desert of services)? It does not matter that it hurts nobody (actually the contrary, I would say) - they have to be assimilated by copying the typical German. What? They do not eat pork? Let's make a law to force them to eat pork. Is this your line of thinking?

@ChrisRea. And this is why an intellectual debate cannot be had without someone taking the easy cop-out of racism. No. When I used the example of Switzerland's decision not have minarets, it does not logically make the argument that now black people cannot get Swiss citizenship (really, dude?). Every country can decide who they want to allow in their country and grant citizenship. The Swiss can allow black people in and STILL RETAIN their swiss culture. However, if they wanted to live like they were still in their native land, there may be a problem. This has nothing to do with racism, but with the successful integration of the new comer. As for your example of Turkish immigrants and their customer service conflicting with the German's lack of it - now, you are just being silly. Same with the pork business.

@ Bulldawg82

So how come that "the Swiss can allow black people in and STILL RETAIN their Swiss culture", but suddenly building a minaret would destroy the same culture? Where is your logic? How exactly is the right not be discriminated based on the colour of the skin more valuable than the one to freely practice your faith? Both are part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If you disregard one, what can stop you to disregard the other?

And what exactly is silly about the Turkish cultural value of customer service contradicting the opposite German one? Or is it that you ran out of arguments and started to discuss persons instead of ideas?

@ChrisRea

The fact that you are arguing instead of discussing is why you are reaching for racism. A minaret is uniquely Arabic and if the Swiss don't want to mix that into their skyline, they have every right to make that determination. This isn't about "destroying culture", it about being allowed to retain it. It does not affect Islam other than their architectural preferences. If this is considered racist to you, well so be it. It is no different than Sikhs not being allowed to wear their ceremonial knives. In some countries, this is not allowed - not based on a religious discrimination or racism - but because it violates their laws. They shouldn't have to compromise their laws for the sake of those immigrating. Many nations do this (not just European) and there is nothing wrong with it.

Not allowing Sikhs to wear a knife isn't bigotry if nobody is allowed to carry a knife. Using existing building regulations to ensure that minarets aren't so high as to spoil a city's skyline isn't bigotry, if the law applies to everyone. Specifically stating that minarets are not allowed to be built higher than a church spire is bigotry because it specifically targets a single group, one the larger group would obviously like to keep down. If the Swiss were banning Synagogues from being built higher than a church, people would call them antisemitic, and they'd be right.

@ antistar

It is actually worse. The ban had nothing to do with the height or any other construction specification of the minaret. It was directed specifically to Islam. So it specifically targeted a single group.

@ Bulldawg82 and @ChrisRea

This does actually look like a fair debate, so let me jump in.

@ Bulldawg82, I really appreciate your honesty and from what you said I do not think you are a deliberate racist. However, your conclusions are indeed racist and I am with ChrisRea on this one.

Check your first post, and if I said the same about the US, ie:

"When I visit USA, I don't want to land in Chicago or New Orleans and feel like I am in Africa."

Is this not bare racism? ChrisRea has presented a very sane and logical argument, is it really so hard to accept what is in its essence the Universal Declaration of Human Rights???

@ Edin

Chicago was multiracial from the get-go. The USA has always been, so to say that some going to Chicago doesn't want to see black people would not be wanting to see the USA. I never said that I don't want to see black people or Middle Easterners in Germany (far from it). I'm talking about the idea that wanting to keep your old world culture (for Europe) isn't wrong. They do this in China, Japan, various Middle East nations and they do it in several South American countries. It may not fit many Western Euro thinking patterns, but that doesn't make it racist. This concept is not in violation of any Universal Declaration of Human rights.

I can sympathise with Bulldawg, even if I think he's running close to the edge with arguments like support for the Swiss minaret law. I wouldn't want to return to my home in the UK in ten or twenty years time and find it has become something very alien. I want things to stay the same as they were when I was a kid. But I don't think it's fair to legislate that. You can't make laws that target certain people because of who they are or what they believe.

And things change. What does it mean to be British or German these days? When I go back to England one of the first things I do is have a curry, because I miss a good British curry. A curry and a pint has become so British it doesn't even feel alien to me. I think it's great when we take the positive things from other cultures, like Diwali, but I don't want to take other Hindu Indian customs on board too, like the caste system. I feel the same way about Islam too, or any foreign culture.

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I would consider myself as atheist, but still i believe that this world "need" religions. A lot of people need to believe in something to give hope. without believe/hope no one can be happy. Some believe in themselve(atheist) and some in God(theist)..... The issue with Islam is you are not supposed to question Islam. If they started to question their religion, they might found that its social system to control people like any other religion.... Simply saying islam never gonna integrate in non-islamic countries...

Phobia = A persistent, illogical, or abnormal fear of a specific thing or situation". Given what Islam preaches in the Koran and what Jihadis preach around the world and on the internet, I do not feel that my fears are illogical or abnormal. See Jake Neuman above. He isn't making this stuff up; it is in the Koran. I don't fear Muslims because there are over a billion of them and they all interpret the Koran in their own way. I do fear Islam and what it intends for the world.

@ Bulldawg82 Your last post shows exactly what your problem is: Lack of history knowlege, wrong input data. You need to get at least basic facts right. Please read through: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_and_ethnic_discrimination_in_the_United_States

@antistar You are spot on, almost. Dönner is nowdays German just as it is Turkish... and we all eat and appreciate it. But the story here is not about Germans being forced to become Muslims, it is about Germans trying to, least to say, de-islamize Muslims. Imagine all if we could ever have a same discussion about Jews in Germany???

Firstly, let me say that although I have no doubt about the results of the research in the article I don't actually see it very much on the ground. The little tension existing around my home is between catholic locals and lutheran ossies, the few muslims, atheists like me and assorted other weirdos are assimilated happily. At work it is similar, if anything a German muslim is better off than a non-German. The company has just reserved a number of meeting rooms as 'meditation' rooms primarily as a place for muslim prayer at the appropriate time.

Secondly, I love the way muslim haters like some of the posters above feel that their definition of islam must be correct. None of the muslims I know would recognize it anymore than the christians I know recognize stoning homosexuals and gunning down abortionists are part of their religion.

Finally, democracy! Like it or not, many muslims, 8% of the population, call Germany home and if you believe in democracy this means that German society is now 8% islamic. So, even if you don't like minarets, democrats should all agree that at least one in twelve church spires should be replaced by minarets. As Churchill said and history has shown, democracy is a lousy way to organize things but other ways tend to lead to bloodshed.

The thing that really excites me about ISLAM is the Quran, sent from the SAME GOD , God of Christians, God of Jews, God of Adam and Eve.

@ Jake Newman : You cant simply quote scripts from the Quran without the context. What you did above is clearly quoted the Scripture but ignored the context just to defame Islam, and leave a negative impression about it. There are coutless people like you with nothing better to do in life, then to defame people or religions. I pity your parents for they could not teach you something better.

Also the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are non-muslims, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is one of the False Prophets as described by Prophet Muhammad PBUH

Thawban ibn Kaidad narrated that Muhammad said;

"There will be 30 dajjals among my Ummah. Each one will claim that he is a prophet; but I am the last of the Prophets (Seal of the Prophets), and there will be no Prophet after me."

—Related by Ahmad ibn Hanbal as a sound hâdith.

It is clearly the fall of Islam, since hardly less then 1% of the Muslims in the world are real muslims.

I am a muslim and I am not bothered by this , at all. Because all of this, in fact most of whats happening in this world right now was foretold by prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago. All these were told as the signs of the Day of Judgement. As a muslim, when I read those signs and compare those to the current situtation in the world, My Faith, My belief in Religion Islam strengthens further and further :)

Yet living in germany, in a german society, I strictly abide by my religion. And the best part is, My german friends accept it and respect it.

:)

@Jake Neumann

"The sacred Islamic texts, the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah, devote 9.3% of its content to spread hatred, bigotry and even violence and genocide of the Jews, while Hitler¦#39;s proverbial Mein Kampf devote only 7%."

What unbelievable bullshit. Who decided what is "hate" and "bigotry" in this research. Was it people who hate Islam and love Hitler by any chance? Islamic texts devote exactly 9.3% of its content to spreading hate - it sounds so scientific doesn't it? A bit like eugenics...

There's no science in counting violent passages in any book - it's totally subjective. What's pure objective fact is that despite being the religion of a man of peace, Jesus, a man who urged his followers to "turn the other cheek", Christians have been responsible for more deaths of unbelievers than any other religion on the planet.

The Crusaders didn't turn the other cheek when they entered Jerusalem, after months on the road slaughtering Jewish communities they pass on the way. Instead they slaughtered everyone, man, woman and child, turning the streets into rivers of blood. They also happily cut down Muslim or Jew - it didn't matter to them.

@Edin

I do know my American history quite well. I am not saying that the USA has never had racial tensions - of course we have. But, for all of it's problems, multiracialism is very much American. When you come to the USA you expect to see a lot of Chinese in San Francisco or a lot of African-Americans in Chicago, Detroit (and nearly all major cities). When you go to my home state of Texas, you expect to see a very large Hispanic population as this is very much the Texan experience. I fully understand this, but Germany is not the USA and it's history is not the same and not even very similar. We Americans, do not have an old world culture that unites us, but we have many assorted aspects of cultures that we try to integrate (trying to take the good parts - doesn't always work though). What I don't want to see are the very unique cultures of the world (whether be it German, Turkish, Chinese, or any other) dissapearing because everyone wants to meld into one cultural cocktail like the USA. The cultures vanish when this is attempted and you end up with just aspects of a culture that used to be. The point of my concern isn't because I don't want to see other people mixing with others - it's one of preserving the cultures. I personally have no problem with the Swiss banning minarets any more than I have a problem with Istanbul, Baghdad or Riyadh, not allowing church steeples (which they don't). They have the right to maintain their cultural distinctions and they have the right to change those distinctions as well. The world, one day, will be fully integrated (this is inevitable) - but when that day comes, we will look back with much remorse at what we have also lost (at least, the good aspects of it). We see this in the USA, but we put a nice spin of nostalgia on it and call it "Heritage Appreciation".

@schizophrono - so you denigrate Jake Neuman for quoting, with no context, from the Koran and then you give quotes, with no context, from the Hadiths? Not convinced.

@antistar - your criticism of Jake Neuman may be true but your criticism of Christians is incorrect. Any Christian that engages in the violence you cite is obviously in contravention to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jihadis and various schools of Islamic jurisprudence don't see violence in the name of Jihad as in contravention to the teachings of Allah (the Koran) or the sayings and life of Muhammed (the Hadiths). As a matter of fact, Islamist terrorists all around the world cite the Koran and the Hadiths in their various propaganda videos. When people tell me that Islam can't be the basis of violence then I reply that OBL and the rest of the Jihadis out there must be "misbelievers". And most of them read the Koran in Arabic!

I think it's only a matter of time for the Aiman Mazyek (Head of the Central Council for Muslims in Germany) calling for a traditional Muslim television program on New Year's Eve.

Something like "Döner for One" i guess.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081231-16465.html#.UOxqpqwoi0t

amy 1+ Thats what I think too. Better than all those noisy and scary fireworks. Lets all get a Döner kebab and enjoy the sweet life.

raandy

Yeah,and your second favorite snack "durum"

I can picture this very well,all the snacks around you,

on a Diwaan with a boiling Water pipe beside you.

How can it be incorrect if Christians carry out the acts they do? There are many ways of interpreting religious texts, because they are so ambiguous. The New Testament says one thing, the Old Testament says another. It's the same with Islamic texts: There's plenty of verses calling for peace and plenty for violence.

Neuman was judging Islam on the basis of counting "bad" verses, as if that was even possible. But this is a meaningless way of judging a religion. You judge someone by what they actions, and it is the same with religion. How else can you know what is important in an ambiguously defined religion written in millions of word of contradictory books?

Plenty of evil has been carried out by Muslims, but plenty more has been carried out by Christians. If you read any Jewish history of evil carried out against them, the list of evils carried out by Muslims is just a few pages compared to the books upon books of evil carried out by Christians.

Paying a special tax and not being able to build a synagogue higher than a mosque? Compare that to murderous pogroms, ghetto prisons and countries that ethnically cleanse entire populations (while murdering them at the same time). There have been a few Islamic massacres of Jews, but it pales in comparison to Christian violence.

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Anny #1 ..you are clairvoyant , right on , I take a picture with me now when I order a Döner. -:) as Iam a bit tired of the "durums" causes to much wear and tear on my water pipe

Your grandchildren will be the ones putting up with the melting pot. In the US we have carried the integration idea too far and so will Europe. It would be nice if it all worked out but I doubt. .

Yes, better forget the image again.It does not fit anyway.

Full eaten,spices,garlic,constant burping and spastic hiccups brings the pipe really to boil.

I have previously written really "boiling water pipe"?tz,tz

"much wear and tear on my water pipe "

We think surely the same water pipe ?Do we?

I assume so ;-)

The best part of the whole discussion was the dialogue between raandy & Anny One again! That;s way to go for it and live life!

Why would you expect ordinary people not to be islamophobic? Islam has twice attempted the military conquest of Europe. This could just be the latest attempt to infiltrate and eventually dominate Europe via the democratic / demographic process. Why would this be so strange given the historical record?

No. It's those who say all is well who are fooling themselves. Islam has never been a "peaceful" religion but an aggressive imperialist ideology like communism or fascism, a form of supremacism. Islam is Islamism, political, totalitarian in its demand for total obedience to its laws and hadiths. Submission is not to god but to the rule of mullahs and imams.

Born in Germany i saw a growing community of Turks in the major city nearby.Nobody had a problem with them at the early stages,but as they did not learn the German langugage things went sour,as they grouped together avoiding german children,staying in their family and clan based society not adopting to German habits.I later worked with children and youths of the nowadays called "middle east", mostly muslim.i saw the huge gap between the cultures.Some childs were jewels learning fast with loving parents.I was asked about my nationality months later and they were surprised that i am of german origin.They expected me to be of turkish origin.I wondered about that and they told me:"Because you are nice,you must be turkish".I saw no German attending our festivalities,we had only one german child there,parents did not want their children to be in contact with the muslims.The place was run by the citiy and partly by Jesuits,but it was not about conversian or christian ways.The Jesuits told me that this was the only way the parents allow their children to visit anything..We gave a chourse:"Mum learns german",without costs,but nobody cames.I saw also children who not attended school, were all the time needed by their mothers for translating at offices,having no time for homework or attending school.I also saw a 12 year old girl of Iraq who had to carry the bag of their 9 year old brother.and has to walk always behind him:"I have it to do,it is expected".There is of course no way ever that we will allow this to happen to our girls,even with tolerance we can not accept such customs.As more Muslims arrived we realized that the "Islamischer Kulturverein", "Islamic society", commiting massive tax fraud used the stolen money to create a mosquee network, to embrace the newcomers.So are the lines drawn,with an governement which allowed last year 900.000 immigrants to come,without knowledge of the german language,repeating the process of the last 3 decades.A school in Berlin send an appeal as teaching was no longer possible, germans were a minority there and violence of them was massive.Police escorts were placed there each day to keep situation under control.Censor on crimes commited by our minority is massive, even what leaks out is outrageous.We did not shook of the yoke of the Pope to replace it with the Mullahs and I am fully expect that they want to replace the un-obdient Christians here with obdient Muslims.Germans are now start to see their governement as traitors and things will soon heat up.

Ha My comments where rejected to some profanity.

Ok. I'll make it short. I don;t like Muslims and their Idiology. Womens clit being trimmed, Women wearing a bags over their Heads, Muslims not intigrating with the western Host Country they live in but instead expect westerners to intigrate with them. Anyone dare speak their opinion or dissagree with their belives is subject to threats and violence. Too many Mosques where one could be forgiven for thinking one was living in a Muslim Country. Try building a Church in their Country or have a women not wear a head scarfe? I have no time for Muslims and think the Koran should be thrown in the Bin some where.

Should I go on?? Do I symphatize with Westerners on their stance against Muslims. YES!!!

It is so interesting to see comments supporting the Islamic community etc etc to break down all the barriers in Germany...

So I have to ask myself.....why is it that Christians do not get this same allowance in Muslim countries? Why is it that they must remain in compounds, etc? Why are there no Christian churches all over the Muslim countries as they are sprining up in the Western countries now?

If you want to talk about Islamphob ia, lets talk about Westernphobia as well.