Row over 'anti-Semitic' journalist escalates

I find it utterly pathetic that anyone in Germany who does not toe the line or pander to Israel, or who has an opinion that does not support Israel, is considered Anti-semitic.

"Obviously the Simon-Wiesenthal Center is quite far removed from German reality," ....

No. America and Israel are quite removed from Reality.

I believe what the Jews went through in WW2 and the wars before that have sort of hardened them collectively into taking extreme steps for minor provocations, no matter where they are.

Usually, the Palestinian Arabs are mostly at the receiving end. But unfortunately, the Jews are right in asserting themselves too. Their history is the one of immense tragedy for nearly 2000 years while for the Arabs, it's only been around 70 years.

As a Jew, these ridiculous arguments make me sad, and they don't help us fight real antisemitism that does exist today in the German society and in other places.

But the two comments above me make me sad too. Iche doesn't understand that there is indeed criticism of Israel that is no less a form of bigotry than direct antisemitism - the Jewish people and their nation state are demonized and delegitimized constantly by people who say "we're not antisemitic we're anti-Zionist". Any form of hate is wrong, whether directed to the Jews as a religious or national group.

And Indischerr doesn't seem to care that what the Jews in Israel do is the least a nation can and should do when it is attacked by massive forces that seek its destruction, probably the least a nation ever did in history. The Arabs on the "receiving end" are constantly trying to destroy the Jewish state through terrorism, past wars that have failed, and obsessive hate and incitement by politicians, religious leaders, and the masses on a daily basis. Israel has to and will continue to protect its people until there is peace and security, and it is doing it so far with the biggest care to civilians on both sides ever demonstrated in human history. So no, not "extreme steps", and it has nothing to do with what they "went through" - just what any normal people would do when they are attacked and when so many threaten their existence.

Perhaps these "respected German intellectuals", or the SWC for that matter, shouldn't be quite so respected after all.

"The Simon Wiesenthal jury said it had based its decision on German publisher and broadcaster Henryk M. Broder's description of Augstein" - I believe this says a lot about the competence of this jury. Apparently they do not have the intellectual capacity to directly judge the articles of Mr. Augstein. They are also content with checking only one source.

@ maorsh

"Any form of hate is wrong, whether directed to the Jews as a religious or national group." - Where exactly in the article above did you find something about hate? Or do you automatically consider any criticism towards the Israeli government as being "hate"? Do you also give a blank cheque to the same government based on the persecutions suffered by Jews in the past and consider that, for example, the illegal settlements are OK?

@ iche and who in your esteemed opinion is in touch with reality??????

@Maorsh

I'm just a neutral observer in this. Perhaps that is the reason I can sort of understand why the Palestinian Arabs act the way they do. The unique thing about it is, both parties were wronged by the forces & events of history.

But as for Anti-semitism, it is a ridiculous idea in itself. Wonder how it still manages to find support in the Western nations. But do you really believe criticizing the actions of a country is anti-semitism? Then perhaps criticizing Iran is anti-Islamic & criticizing Liberia amounts to criticizing all the freed African slaves.

@ChrisRea,

Of course I do not believe that any criticism of Israeli policies is antisemitism or form of hate, but some of it is. Delegitimizing Israel's right to exist and the Jewish people's right for a nation state, demonizing Israel and its people as if they enjoy the suffering of the Palestinians, ridiculous allegations such as "Israel steals Palestinian organs" and thousands of similar things widespread in the media - all these are not "criticism toward the Israeli government" - they are pure bigotry. Whether they are the result of latent antisemitism, that is a topic for research, not for determined opinion. But I don't have to show that one form of hate is another form of hate to prove that it illegitimate - hatred is illegitimate, whether "anti-Semitic" or "Anti-Zionist".

@indischerr,

It's sad that you dismiss the long-standing Western phenomenon of antisemitism as something that it is ridiculous and attempts to fight it as something that should be supported by Western nations, especially when we're talking about Germany, a country whose antisemitic past outstands.

But as I explain above - no, although it became a common theme in "criticizing Israel" - I am NOT saying that any criticism of "actions of Israel" is antisemitism. No one in Israel and no one who supports Israel say that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism. In logic this is a straw man argument - inventing your opponent argument and then going against it...

The German official position is against Israeli policy - it's against the Israeli control in the West Bank and against the settlements. Merkel many times condemned Israel for the settlements - and no one blamed her to be antisemitic.

@iche - thanks for collectively insulting all Americans. I, for one, do not care what the SWC says, nor do most Americans. In fact, I am willing to wager that most Americans would not even know what that organization represents. On the other hand, we as Americans accept freedom of speech as being important, including the right to say we do not agree with some German journalist. Talk about being removed from reality.

Maorsh, antisemitism has a pretty strict meaning. I think wikipedia sums it up pretty well:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage.

What often happens in discussions with supporters of Israel is that they will throw in sacred cows which they think are beyond criticism, and claim attacks upon them are "anti-semitism". You do it yourself here, claiming that attacks upon Israel's right to exist or the Jewish people's right to a nation state is "anti-semitism". No it isn't.

If someone believes that Kurds don't have a right to a nation state, does that make them anti-Kurd? If you believe that the Palestinians don't have a right to a nation state, does that make you anti-Arab? If an Aborginal Australian wished the Europeans would leave, does that mean he hates all white people? No, no and no.

Some people hate Israel. Some people hate America. Some people hate Iran. This isn't racism towards the people of those countries. Many left wingers in Europe hate Israel, but not Jewish people. They hate what Israel has done and what it continues to do. But I bet you any money that these same left wingers who hate Israel would jump up and defend Jews in Europe from Nazis and other REAL anti-Semites if the need arose.

The real danger is that every time you or someone else waters down the meaning of antisemitism, it loses its power. It stings the first few times, so you can attack people whose opinions you don't like, but you are spending its currency each time you do. Before long it will be a meaningless word, a meaningless idea. You will be able to call someone an antisemite and they will just be someone who has held an opinion in opposition to something Jewish or Israeli. It will be meaningless. That is a real danger.

@ maorsh

OK, from your answer I understand that neither Mr. Augstein nor anybody else mentioned in the article spoke of hate (or of topics like Israel's right to exist), it is only you that felt it necessary to bring the discussion at another level. I am glad however that you did not defend policies like Israel's illegal settlements (which can be seen as a form of hate towards Palestinians).

"No one in Israel and no one who supports Israel say that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism." - Unfortunately you are wrong. For example, look what Lawrence Summers, the president of Harvard University, declared on 17 September 2002: "Profoundly anti-Israel views are increasingly finding support in progressive intellectual communities. Serious and thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-semitic in their effect if not their intent." The remark was made in connection to petition drafted by faculty members from MIT and Harvard who oppose Israel¦#39;s current occupation and its treatment of Palestinians.

Unfortunately again, the attitude adopted by the Simon Wiesenthal Center is nothing new. We have seen the same when Judith Butler was attacked by Israeli/Jewish groups for criticising the Israeli government. Even the Israeli newspaper Haaretz said then: "Jewish groups inside and outside Israel are using what can be interpreted as bullying tactics to silence their opponents. This is a tactical and moral mistake."

@antistar,

If you read again what I've written above, you will see that I did not say that denying Israel's right to exist is antisemitism but that it is bigotry. It is bigotry, because there is simply no other country in the world that exists and s a UN member, particularly not a liberal democracy, that it's existence is being denying and constantly threatens by counties, organizations, and a huge part of the world population. Israel is the only country whose existence is threatens, on a premise that the Jews don't deserve a nation state in their homeland. If there is such a thing as the right to a nation state, the Jewish people are the closest thing we have in this world to deserve this right.

I believe that in many cases, this rejection of the Jewish people's right stems from hatred against Jews, and many studies actually showed that there's a strong correlation between manifest and latent antisemitism to delegitimization of Israel. However, this is NOT what I argued above - I argued that such a view against the Jewish people's nation is illegitimate and wrong, whether it is based on antisemitism or not.

Again, this has become a straw man argument - people criticize Israel, Jews criticize Israel, Israelis criticize Israel, and no one calls any of these antisemites. Those who are called antisemites are those whose criticism often extends anything legitimate and is a form of hate. I personally reject the political use of antisemitism - because these opinions are wrong and bad and should be shown as such regardless of their motives.

@ChrisRea,

If you go above and read again you'll see that I was referring to the issue of hate and bigotry in criticism against Israel following the first two comments, to which I specifically referred.

About Lawrence Summers - I can't speak in his name and I'm not too familiar with that issue (it was more than 10 years ago), but from his declaration it seems that he indeed did not accuse the petitioners in antisemitism, but framed their anti-Israel views are wrong and said that they fuel antisemitism, which is often indeed the case. I like Lawrence am interested in a fair discussion on Israel - a discussion that doesn't detach Israel's actions from the contexts in which they take place and from the threats it deals with, and a discussion that does not ignore the comparative aspects (how other countries behave in similar situations and how they would behave if met these conditions).

Judith Butler was condemned by many groups and it is their right to condemn her, in Israel and outside.. The quote from Haaretz you brought does not say that she was accused in antisemitism, and if you read the 3rd paragraph you'll see that this article actually goes against Butler's "criticism" and political tactics against Israel - WITHOUT accusing her in anything like antisemitism:

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/judith-butler-gets-a-taste-of-her-own-politics-1.465861

@ maorsh

I reread the first two comments and also yours (#3). iche's comment was about automatically labeling any criticism of Israel as antisemitic and as response you referred to something else, namely the part of criticism of Israel that can be considered as much bigotry as direct antisemitism (as expression of hate against Israel). Indischerr's comment was about Jews overreacting to provocations, you spoke of something else i.e. that Arabs hate Jews (which is clearly a false generalisation). So I maintain my point that you artificially bring hate into discussion.

"from his declaration (Mr. Lawrence's) it seems that he indeed did not accuse the petitioners in antisemitism, but framed their anti-Israel views are wrong and said that they fuel antisemitism" - Well, he clearly calls the actions of the petitioners antisemitic ("Serious and thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-semitic"). You might want to reread his declarations.

Regarding Haaretz's statement, you interpreted it correctly. It admits that the Jewish groups criticising Butler are using bullying tactics to silence her and others with similar views. That was exactly what I meant (and it is related to iche's comment).

Well I personally believe most of the issues with Jews is based upon a religious hatred, that has now manifested into a broader issue. Christianity and Islam are in parts based upon Judaism and both sides has their dislikes of Jewish people because of it. With the issues of Palestinians the nations that scream the loudest would have been wiped the Palestinians out if they did what they did in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, China, Turkey and many other countries. For the record they did have groups like and those countries along with others in Africa, South America, and parts of Asia they slaughtered or massacred whole groups did not hardly hear a peep about it.

Nobody really cared when millions where killed, unless some oil was involved. Now turn on your TV and or read your paper you will always see something jumping on Israel. They did not go out and wholesale slaughter the Palestinians even after their actions. With the last incursion the first rocket killed two Jewish infants nobody cared oh well its just some Jews. First Israeli strike takes out a bunch of guys shooting rockets but the story you see is the baby that gets killed that is in the house that the guys shooting rockets were on the roof. Oh my God those evil Jews this is open hatred of Jews.

@ChrisRea,

This discussion is about hatred against Jews, criticism against Israel, antisemitism, antiZionism, legitimate and illegitimate criticism, bigotry, hate, politics. I think that there's a clear logical line in my responses to other comments here. If you think that I brought "hate" into the discussion, or that I expressed any hate myself, I can only ask you to read my points again, but I don't think that there's much more I can add in this regard.

About Lawrence - maybe he referred to actions that exceed legitimate criticism in his views, and are antisemitic in his views. If you wish, in the worst case, you will find people, both Jewish and non-Jewish, that say that everything is antisemitic, that the whole world is antisemitic, that you're antisemitic, and that aliens kidnapped them when they were 12. I don't know exactly what you want from me with regard to Lawrence - maybe he thinks that everything is antisemitism, maybe he's antisemite himself. Why don't you ask him about his views instead of me? :)

You didn't understand the article in Haaretz - it says that BOTH Butler and her opponents use bullying tactics, and it discredits Butler's views, which the author argues are not legitimate criticism of Israel. It did not accuse Butler of Antisemitism, it did not say that anyone accuses her in antisemitism, and it doesn't serve the purpose you want it to serve for you in this discussion, sorry.

@maorsh #3 What massive forces are seeking destruction of Jews and the state of Israel?

The state of Israel allegedly has nuclear weapons. Israel has a well equipped and well trained military. Unlimited financial support from the U.S. and the assistance of the U.S. military.

In Palestine. People have no human rights or freedom. Restrictions on the amount of money or aid from governments in europe and the U.S. No access to decent jobs. Basic medicine, health care is a luxury or does not exist for many. Children do not have adequate food and water.

Yes, The terrorists. The anti-Zionists and anti-Semites are truly inflicting pain and suffering on Jews and Israelis in the state of Israel.

Anyone who believes Israel is a stumbling block to world peace would also believe that all governments should adopt Sharia Law.

@chicagolive,

The issue is that discussion on Israel's wrongs that ignores or denies the threats against Israel, the conditions in which it operates, and the way others have behaving, are behaving, or would have behaved, is a discussion that is not fair, and it is likely to result from the desire to demonize and delegitimize Israel - which are themselves manifestations of hate and bigotry. The same goes to the Palestinians.

@spti Serverus,

Around 45 countries more or less don't recognize Israel. Iran, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al-Kaida, and many other organizations in the Middle East actively seek Israel's destruction. Many organizations in the west, unfortunately, are also supporting the goal of destructing Israel, although it's rarely that they will engage in violence themselves (they however don't have any problem in supporting those who use horrible violence to achieve goals that are rarely freedom and mostly hate and destruction).

Yes, Israel is strong militarily - and I am thankful for that, because it's the only reason why it not only survived so far but also became one of the most advanced countries in the world in terms of economy and liberalism. I really fail to see how the argument that Israel is strong is an argument against it - I don't remember that Israel ever used nuclear weapons or threatened to use it against anyone. I do remember, however, how Israel applied during and continues to apply the most advanced military means to safeguard the lives of civilians among its enemies, more than any other country in history. Israel also invests huge efforts in defending its people (e.g. Iron Dome anti-missile system), that save lives on both sides.

The human rights conditions in the Palestinian territories are not good, and it's the result of the situation in which both Israel and the Palestinian organizations. You should know, however, that despite Hamas' firing rockets from Gaza and vows to destroy Israel, Israel still let it exist next to it, and there is no single hungry person there. The economy of the WB is doing well, and the life expectancy and GDP are both higher than those in Turkey.

Jews in Israel suffer less - EXACTLY because they are strong, they defend themselves, they do not give up on their country, and maybe one day when their enemies give up the attempts to destroy them, they will also have a better future.

@ Indischerr #2 Usually, the Palestinian Arabs are mostly at the receiving end. But unfortunately, the Jews are right in asserting themselves too. Their history is the one of immense tragedy for nearly 2000 years while for the Arabs, it's only been around 70 years.

How do you support the claim of Jewish immense tragedy for nearly 2000 years?

In reality, what is an immense tragedy for over 70 years, is the injustice, thief of land and oppression in Palestine.

@ chicagolive ... what kind of undocumented jibberish are you are trying to say?

You need to back that those outrageous claims with some references that are legitimate.

trevzns

the middle east conflict is not black or white there is right and wrong on both sides,using words like thief of land is not exact,and distorte the history.

Septiseverius:suffering is on both sides and in Israel not just Jews are victims of the Palestinian terror.

We do treat Palestinians of both west bank and Gazza in our hospitals

telling about food or water deficincies to the civilians there is a lie.

Chris rea

you may critisize Israel without being anti semitic ,as an Israeli I can accept it, but talking about"Jews" who wish to control the world and using the "protocols of older of Zion" to talk against the Jews in Europe is the same old anti semitism

antistar-I do agree with you

@ trevzns:

The answer lies in your statement " In reality, what is an immense tragedy for over 70 years, is the injustice, thief of land and oppression in Palestine." This was first experienced by the Jews in 70 C.E. Their land was taken away from them and they were expelled from Judea. Wherever they've gone from thereon, except India, they've been persecuted. They were targeted by the Greeks, Romans, Selucids, European city-states, during the Arab conquest of Judea, during the crusades...right upto the end of WW2.

Unfortunately, for them to come back to "their home", the Palestinian Arabs, some of whom were once Jews themselves and later forcefully converted, had to vacate their homes. This has set off another round of wars in the region. It shouldn't have come this way, but it did. I only take pride in the fact that India has never persecuted Jews. We still have Jews and Zoroastrians here.

@Indischerr,

To say "the Palestinians Arabs had to vacate their homes" is a great distortion of complex historical events. It's impossible to go into details here, but since the end of the 19th century, two distinct nationalities have emerged in the land of Israel/Palestine. The British colonials and later the UN wanted to establish both a Jewish and Arab state in this land, recognizing the national aspirations of the two people living there. There was no intention of British, the UN nor the Jewish pre-state establishment that the Arab inhabitants "vacate their homes" - during the big was in 1948 that was enforced on the Jews, the two communities fought each other in an existential war. The Jews won, survived, and established their state, and have nothing to apologize for in this regard.

Two often neglected facts are that first, a big Arab minority remained in Israel, but the West Bank and Gaza were completely ethnically cleansed from Jews by the Arab rulers, and second, we are talking about sovereignty and not land ownership; Palestinians can and do own land and houses within Israel (while they are prevented from this right in most Arab countries, the same countries that lock them in refugee camps for more than 65 years now).

@maorsh #18

Yes, with the assistance of the U.S. government and lots of money. And no intent to diminish the contributions and accomplishment of some Jews. Most of the world now knowns, Jews are the worlds most Intelligent and productive of Gods creation that are entitled to other peoples resources and lands.

However. If peace and security is the desire of most Jews, Israelis and the Zionists and state of Israel? Godspeed with the consequentialism that some Jews and the state of Israel embrace as a historical and nation building right of existence. Even if some of the ancient stories of the bible and Hebrew books are real?

As it is today, 70 or 4000 years ago. When the Israelites or Jews arrived in a foreign land. There was no respect or consideration for the existing population. Human rights was not an option for the heathens and haters living in the promised land.

There has always been non-Jewish people living in the lands and regions claimed as Jewish ancestral homelands. Long before the invention of the Jewish religion and Zionism.

@septi Severus,

What exactly do you want to say by bringing up the assistance of the US and diaspora Jews to Israel? That's a good thing that the Jewish people are assisted to maintain their one and only tiny nation in their homeland. So what do you want?

There has always been non-Jewish people living in the land, and there will always be non-Jewish people living in the land. There are 1.7 million Arabs living inside Israel, the only Arab population in the Middle East living in a democracy with full human and civil rights. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza should negotiate with Israel to achieve an independent nation state for the Palestinian people.

I'm sorry if you cannot understand the reality in Israel/Palestine, but as someone else said above, it's not black or white. The solution is clear, and it will NOT be the disappearance or the destruction of Israel. Israel is going nowhere.

@maorsh "If there is such a thing as the right to a nation state, the Jewish people are the closest thing we have in this world to deserve this right. "

And who exactly are "the Jewish people"? Who grants this right and who is supposed to enforce it? Do you think Mormons deserve this right? Bavarian Catholics? Do we need to divide the world again into hundreds of tiny principalities, each with its own religion and ethnic make-up?

In the end, your line of argumentation seems like the same kind of nationalistic and ethnic thinking that caused centuries of war in Europe. It's not even that anybody wants to deny you this "right", it's that people increasinly have no idea what it is you actually want. To more and more people, the idea of a "Jewish democracy" is as absurd as a "Christian democracy" or an "Islamic democracy".

"The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza should negotiate with Israel to achieve an independent nation state for the Palestinian people."

Why shouldn't these people just get Israeli citizenship? That seems like the obvious solution if Israel is actually a "democracy with full human and civil rights" and doesn't discriminate based on religion or ethnicity.

@guliver #21

January 6, 2013 by guliver

trevzns

the middle east conflict is not black or white there is right and wrong on both sides,using words like thief of land is not exact,and distorte the history.

What distortion of history by using words like thief? How about larceny of Palestinian and Arab lands?

Many Palestinians other Arabs, Christians and others had or have legitimate land deeds predating Zionism and the state of Israel.

With oppressors, colonists, religious extremists, bigots and nationalist. Lying and deceit is acceptable to justify the means.

@guliver #21

Septiseverius: suffering is on both sides and in Israel not just Jews are victims of the Palestinian terror.We do treat Palestinians of both west bank and Gazza in our hospitals telling about food or water deficincies to the civilians there is a lie.

The water used to fill Israeli swimming pools, public or private would make a difference in Palestine. I did not imply there is no danger or suffering of Jews or Israelis.

So, there is basic health care provided by Jews and Israelis. Wonderful. Compassion for non-Jews and other human beings. I am sure the fortunate recipients are grateful for the mercy and kindness offered to them.

@mitanni,

who exactly are "the Jewish people"? Go to google. As I wrote, national rights are an elusive issue, but the fact is that there is no nation state in the world that its existence is delegitimized and contested but the Jewish state. This is not an issue of dividing the world or uniting the world - as long as most countries are nation states, the Jewish people with its 3,000 years history of being an ethno-national group, with a clear homeland with Jewish history, Jewish culture, and Jewish sovereignty - will also have one. Israel was established, it exists, and it's not going anywhere.

about me being "nationalistic" - Israel and the Jews would not emphasize their nationality so much if it would not have been contested so much, and if there were no 45 countries that don't recognize it. When you're trying to take away someone's national rights, it makes sense that he will react and defend his rights. In an ideal world of non-nationalism, the Jews will be the first ones to give it up. But they will never be the only ones, definitely not in light of their history.

About ""Jewish democracy" is as absurd as a "Christian democracy" " - I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept "Jewish people" - the Jews are not only a religious group - they are an ethno-national group that shares a common non-missionary religion (like the Druze and some other groups).

"Why shouldn't these people just get Israeli citizenship? " And why shouldn't Pakistani get voting rights in India? And French in Germany? and Canadians in the US? Are those not democracies? give me a break... Those who live in Israel are citizens of Israel, and those who live in Gaza and the West Bank will be the citizens of Palestine (they are already now citizens of the Autonomous Palestinian Authority).

@maorsh

You said denying Israel's right to exist is "no less a form of bigotry than direct antisemitism". But bigotry against Jews is antisemitism, so you ARE saying that denial of Israel's right to exist is antisemitism, even if you don't want to.

I think Israel does have a right to exist, both because it, de-facto, does exist, and because I accept the "special case" argument that the Jewish people have suffered greatly. But I also see the other side of the argument. I can understand that a Palestinian would not see as legitimate millions of immigrants arriving on what he sees as his land, and creating a new state where he is not a citizen, where he has no rights, but where he is controlled by that country's government and military.

I don't see how anyone is a bigot simply because they would see things differently from me.

When a country can force it's women into prostitution, by law, I can no longer respect anything that country says or does. Germany is the most uncivilized country on the face of the earth, and that is saying something.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

@antistar,

If you read again what you quoted you'll see that I didn't say that denying Israel's right to exist is "bigotry against Jews" - but that it's bigotry - it's a negative attitude directed at a collective, resulting from some psychological mechanism of intolerance.

The public discussion of whether denying Israel's right to exist is antisemitism or not is futile in my opinion - it can be based on antisemitic views and it can be based on other forms of... well, bigotry. An exception would be a position that no country has the right to exist from an anti-Nationalist view.

We cannot continue simplifying for political purposes and radical positions the chain of evens that led to the exodus of many Palestinians in 1948 (and a parallel exodus of almost all Jews in the Arab world, an issue often neglected). There was a big war against the Jews and those who lost can only blame themselves for what they tried to achieve (a "war of extermination against the Jews", in the words of the Arab league). This was not the first war in history that resulted in population exchanges. Actually, most wars ended in similar ways. The only difference is that the Arabs continued over and over and over to attempt to destroy Israel, and many of them continue to nurture this issue with a lot of hate and incitement. The issue for the Arabs countries during the conflict was not creating the Palestinians a state, but taking away the Jewish one - the best evidence except for 6 wars and countless of overt threats is that the Arab world chose not to establish a Palestinian state when the West Bank and Gaza were in its hand, till 1967. In fact, no one till 1965 even thought about a Palestinian state, and the issue of a distinct Palestinian identity did not appear anywhere till those years. For this reason many Israelis and its supporters say that the Palestinian nationality is "invented", a tactic in their war against Israel. In my opinion, it doesn't matter - today there are Palestinians, there is a Palestinian national movement, and I hope to see a Palestinian state soon. Next to Israel of course. And one that lives in peace with Israel, even better.

@maorsh #25

What do I really want?

The same Jews, Israelis and Zionists want. A desire for freedom to live and die believing whatever I chose and die in peace. Except, without the oppression of others and bigotry. And not have my sons and other children die fighting to legitimize or fulfill the ancient Apocalyptic delusions of Jews, Christians and muslims.

As for the extremists Jews and the state of Israel right to a final solution? There are still a few living eyewitness that can explain better than I, how the policy of the final solution will end.

@septi Severus,

The peace and freedom part I understood, the rest not so much (at least I hope I didn't get that "Israel right to a final solution" part, sounds like horrible antisemitic crap...)

@Indischerr #22

The Zoroastrians and India....Ok. Whatever?

The number of illiterate and surreptitious people has changed during the 2000 or 4000 years of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic versions of human exists. Like all religions. The religions of Europe and the Middle East are institutions of human slavery, physical and mental. Where critical thinking and reason is required to be suspended or forbidden.

@maorsh #34

Perhaps you can provide a sensible explanation of what is a Semite or anti-Semitic? What regions of the real world do Jewish, Zionist or Israeli Semites originate?

Wikipedia is a good source for everything you want to know about those issues.

Wikipedia can also explain you that anti-Semitism is not literally "hatred against Semites", but hatred against Jews (the term was coined and is used to refer to hatred against Jews). If you feel that there should be a term for hatred against Semites (whatever that is), you're welcome to invent one yourself, but antisemitism is already taken :)

I did not ask for Wikipedias explanation. I will accept no sensible explanation and move on.

As for my anti-semitic crap. The state of Israel and some Jews have a take it or leave it solution. No respect or concern of the rights for Palestinians and Arabs to exist in a second state. That is a final solution.

I don't know what you want from me exactly, if you have a theory on what a Semite or anti-Semitic is that is different from what you find on Wiki, it will be interesting to hear. Mine isn't. There isn't really a "Semite" thing going on in the world today - it doesn't really exist as an identity (perhaps some weird people would say that they feel attached to the Semite origin). Antisemitism is not hatred against Semites, but hatred against Jews. Semantics.

And as for your antisemitic crap, apparently it is truly antisemitic crap. So the pro-Israelis don't need to work hard to show how anti-Israel and anti-Semitism are related, you're doing it well enough. Thanks.

@ maorsh

"This discussion is about hatred against Jews" - No, the discussion is about the Simon Wiesenthal Center calling Mr. Augstein antisemit and the German Central Council of Jews strongly disagreeing.

Lawrence is just an example of pro-Israel people who claim that criticism Israel is antisemitism, proving false your statement in this regard ("No one in Israel and no one who supports Israel say that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.") It is exactly the same model adopted by Simon Wiesenthal Center - the bullying tactics denounced in the Haaretz article ( "Jewish groups inside and outside Israel are using what can be interpreted as bullying tactics to silence their opponents").

The main criticism of Israel coming from the international community is that it goes far beyond defending itself. Its actions (for example building the illegal settlements) show that it denies the Palestinian state the right to exist. Quoting from Haaretz: "Israel conducts a colonial policy in the territories, and has a morally repugnant policy toward Eritrean refugees and foreign workers".

@ guliver

"talking about"Jews" who wish to control the world and using the "protocols of older of Zion" to talk against the Jews in Europe is the same old anti semitism" - so where exactly did Mr. Augstein say something like that? And if not, why does SWC call him antisemit?

@ChrisRea,

No, you are most certainly wrong - the ARTICLE is about the SWC and Augstein. The discussion here so far deals with the broader issues related to that incident. That's the nature of discussions, and their topics and content is determined and developed by the participants. Are you seriously going to tell people here what they should and should not discuss?

You decided that Lawrence is an example of what you wanted to provide evidence for. In my opinion his statement does not include anything to suggests that he sees criticism of Israel as synonymous with antisemitism, that's definitely your interpretation. He did refer to antisemitism - he might have meant overt hatred against Jews, or illegitimiate criticism of Israel that is derived from antisemitism. You'll have to ask him if you want to be sure.

I know many critics of Israel who have not been called antisemitic, neither by Lawrence nor by the SWC.

Well, what you call main criticism is acceptable (about the settlement). That's the high-ranks official western line of criticism, and not only that I don't have a problem with it, I actually agree with it. But I don't know if you noticed, the anti-Israel discourse in the West is not only about the settlements - Israel is accused of doing a hundreds of different things, from stealing organs, killing babies, to planning a "final solution" to the Palestinians (see above) and conspire to take over stuff. I wish that the problems of the world, by the way, would be that Jews build houses in Jerusalem. I forgot who said it about Obama, that he seems less worried about a mad leader of a country building nuclear bombs and calling to destroy a country than about a Jewish guy expanding his balcony in Jerusalem...

By the way, whatever Haaretz says in its editorials is not the Bible for me - it is possible that Haaretz is wrong as well.

@mitanni, "This is not an issue of dividing the world or uniting the world - as long as most countries are nation states, the Jewish people with its 3,000 years history of being an ethno-national group, with a clear homeland with Jewish history, Jewish culture, and Jewish sovereignty - will also have one."

Almost no ethnic or religious group has its own separate homeland these days. Western democracies are composed of thousands of ethnic, linguistic, and religious minorities living peacefully together within and across national boundaries. The Jewish desire for a separate homeland is understandable given 20th century history, but to claim that it is just the same everybody else has is wrong, and rather offensive from the point of view of the many other historically persecuted minorities.

"And why shouldn't Pakistani get voting rights in India? And French in Germany? and Canadians in the US? Are those not democracies?"

All of those nations generally give citizenship rights and free movement to people living in territories they control. But my actual point was that if Israel were the tolerant and democratic society you say it is, a single state solution would be the obvious solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

@ maorsh

You are right, I should have be clearer. The article and the discussion was originally about SWC and Augstein. Then you brought hate into discussion and tried to change the topic. Before your comments, there was no link to stealing organs, killing babies and other subjects like this. But please, feel free to continue discussing on whatever you like. I still find it normal to discuss the topic at hand, namely the bullying tactics used by SWC and other groups to silence the ones that dare criticising the government of Israel.

"Several Harvard professors who support divestment reacted with surprise to Summers' comments, saying that he was jumping to an unfair conclusion: raising the specter of anti-Semitism to criticize what amounts to a political protest of the Sharon government." http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-09-21/news/0209210348_1_anti-semitism-divestment-harvard

You are right again, it was me that decided that Lawrence is an example of pro-Israel people who claim that criticism Israel is antisemitism. And the above mentioned Harvard professors took a time trip and publicly agreed with me.

Trevzns

The Palestinians rejected the UN resolution 181 from 29.11.47 and opened repeated wars against us in order to eliminate our state,by those wars they lost the west bank and Gazza and now they are crying"stolen lands"

Colonists? between 1948-1967 the "occupied territories " were in arab hands-why did not they build their Palestinian state then? -because the issue was not Palestinian state but destroying Israel.

Septi severus

1.No water problem in the occuping territories out of your imagination most probably moved by the Palestinian propaganda.

2.Yes the arabs from occupied territories and also from other arabs country get the best health treatment in the middle east from the best doctors ,you may ask them ,they are very gratefull.

The Jews come from Palestine they were unwanted guests all over the world and specialy in Europe ,they originated in Israel and were forced to exile from their land Israel,Israel has the right to exsist even if you have difficulties to accept it.2 states living side by side in peace

Mitanni

A single state solution is against the wish of both Palestinians and Jews therefore came UN resolution 181 ,2 states a Jewish one and an Arab Palestinian one living side by side in peace

Chrisrea

Mr.Augustein is not anti semitic I have never said it, but these voices and true Nazies do exsist all over Europe till today and with their hae to Jews they support the arabs who wish to destroy us.

about the settlements issue I do agree with you

@mitanni,

I in no way argued that Israel should be a Jewish state in the exclusive sense - that only Jews should live there! 30% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish and they have equal citizenship (well there are still some problems that Israel should work on). France is the nation state of the French people - its symbols, language, interests, holidays and so forth are French. The same goes for Israel: its flag, language, holidays, interests - are directed at the Jewish people. It's the nation state of the Jewish people, with non-Jewish citizens (many of the Arab citizens claim that Israel should not be a Jewish state - which I don't accept, there shouldn't be a problem for non-Jews to live in a Jewish state, with equal citizenship of course).

"if Israel were the tolerant and democratic society you say it is, a single state solution would be the obvious solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict".

No, I don't agree - Israel took control over the West Bank and Gaza in a war opened by Arab armies to destroy Israel, and it announced since then that it will withdraw in return for peace and the end of the conflict. Israel did not annex the territories. In 1993 Israel and the Palestinians started a political process toward a Palestinian state. The territories are divided to areas in full control of the Palestinian Autonomy (all big cities and towns) and those still under Israeli control. The peace process unfortunately failed, and in 2005 Israel left Gaza completely. All Palestinians in the WB and Gaza vote for the Palestinian Authority (which is divided between Fatah and Hamas, but that's another issue). They are in no way citizens of Israel. It's true that Israel does interfere with their lives - and that's why they need to continue negotiate to finish the peace process, instead of firing rockets and such.

Let's be clear about the so called "one state solution" - it's a solution in which the Jews will be the minority, and probably a persecuted minority like all minorities in the Middle East. It's a strategy to destroy Israel without war and there's no way the Jews are ever going to agree to that. Israel exists, they have a state, and they won't give up on it so easily. Maybe in the future, when there's peace, they would agree to some kind of federation, and I hope free movement between Israel and Palestine would be possible - but all in one state? Never.

Maorsh

Well said.

7 millions Jews here will say 7 millions times no to one state solution,yes to two states solution living side by side in peace,a Jewish one and an Arab-Palestinian one.

Beer-Sheva

Israel

@maorsh "France is the nation state of the French people - its symbols, language, interests, holidays and so forth are French. The same goes for Israel"

And look at what the nation states of Europe accomplished: century after century of war and internal oppression of ethnic, linguistic, and religious minorities (including, incidentally, my ancestors, that is, those that weren't murdered outright). Europeans have been abandoning this construct of the nation state, both dissolving boundaries between nation states, and reasserting minority identities within nation states, because it just does not work.

This obsolete construct of a European-style nation state is how you define Israel. And I agree: that is what Israel actually is, with all the negative consequences that entails.

"Let's be clear about the so called "one state solution" - it's a solution in which the Jews will be the minority, and probably a persecuted minority like all minorities in the Middle East. t's a strategy to destroy Israel without war and there's no way the Jews are ever going to agree to that. Israel exists, they have a state, and they won't give up on it so easily."

I wasn't suggesting a one state solution as actually feasible for Israel. I was simply saying that that is the solution that would be in line with how Western nations try to solve these problems these days. Whether Israel can get there, I don't know. But based on historical precedent, it is pretty clear that the creation of a "nation state like France" the way you envision it is not going to work, because it never has in the past. You can't expect a lot of support or enthusiasm for that kind of vision from Europeans or Americans.

mitanni

I was born in Israel and live in Israel all my life.

the only possibile solution is two states solution,Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and cooperating for the future generations.

All sides including my government must take the neccessary steps to realize that.

One state solution simply will not work, 2 different people, different religions, mentality, cultural ,history and the main reason each group wish to live his own independent life free and not dependent by the other,this fact was the reason that on 29.11.47 the UN voted on the partition of Palestine into 2 states an arab one and a jewish one,this vote came after many inquiry commities that the UN sent to Palestine ,these commities one of them was Phill commitee indicated that the best solution is to terminate the British mandate on Palestine and to divide it into 2 states a jewish and an arab one,if the arabs would have accepted it Israel would have been a very tiny country -resolution 181 but could have lived in peacefull connections with its neighbours.

Common Sense , is a thing of the past , now it about PC and if you are on the other side of the number line then its all about you.

We all new that common sense died when you saw this was in vogue ...if-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus.

It is impossible to write the truth with out stepping on some ones toes.

Maorsh, what you believe to be the rights and wrongs of the birth of the state of Israel is just your opinion. It's not fact. If someone disagrees with your statements, then it's not bigotry because they disagree, but simply a different opinion.

I think maybe your problem is that your belief in YOUR version of history is so strong and so heartfelt, that you cannot see how there can be another opinion, so holding a different opinion must be bigotry.

@mitanni,

I do agree that nationalism is not a positive thing for the world. However, the Jewish case is a bit unique - The Jews were basically the only "other" in the Western world for many years, and they suffered from persecutions. With the rise of nationalism, they started to understand that they should also aspire to revive their nation, and that they should put their future in their own hands and not in the hands of their host nations ("host" is the way most of these nations saw them - as outsiders that should be supervised and limited). Zionism was all about "Jewish politics".

It's true that many Jews were against that, and sought for other ways that the Jewish people can finally reach equality - the three main camps of the non-Zionists where those who thought that the Jews should give up Judaism, even convert to Christianity, and join the majority in their countries. The others were the anti-Nationalist (communists mostly) that thought that multinational organizations would help the Jews, and the third were the ultra orthodox, who thought that the Jews would be saved by god...

The debate between the Zionists and the other three groups practically ended in 1945, in a rather technical "victory" of the Zionists - the others were exterminated in Nazi death camps. At that point, it was obvious to the Jewish people that there is no other option for them - only a Jewish sovereignty, and it happened.

Now, if at that time the Arabs would have said "well, we understand their suffering and we say Ahlan Wasahalan (welcome) to the 0.2% of the Middle East which is their only homeland in this world" - I think that in 20-25 years the Jews wouldn't even care about their nationality or national rights and any of that.. but the Arabs didn't say it, and since then they focus 90% of their efforts in politics in constant attempts to take away from the Jews that 0.2% of the land they see as their. So the Jews find themselves constantly fighting for recognition, and they must continue emphasizing their national rights.

And with the western world, things are really bizarre in the eyes of the average Israeli. We don't really understand what they want from us. We gathered ourselves in a tiny state, far away from the West, and everyone is still obsessed with us. As Amos Oz, the Israeli writer said, "when I was a child there were signs in Europe - 'Jews go to Palestine', and today there are signs 'Jews get out of Palestine'"...

So overall, Jewish nationalism is still important to the Jewish survival. I hope that if the conflict with the Arabs end, it will become less important. But I have no illusion that the world will be antisemitism-free anytime soon...

@antistar,

I usually say my beliefs and opinions, if yours are different, you have the right to say them, and I have the right to respond and negate them. I believe that rejecting the right of the Jews to have a tiny state in their homeland is hate and bigotry.

such a pity, Wiesenthal Center refuses further debate with Jakob Augstein

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wiesenthal-center-refuses-to-debate-jakob-augstein-without-apology-a-876087.html

Just one maybe last important thing that I wish to say regarding the subject of the article and the accusation that "Jews/Israelis/pro-Israel people call antisemite to anyone who criticizes Israel" - notice that most prominent Jews who were asked (like the head of the central council of Jews in Germany, said that they disagree with the assertion that Augstein is an antisemite, though his criticism of Israel is quite blatant.

@maorsh "I do agree that nationalism is not a positive thing for the world. However, the Jewish case is a bit unique - The Jews were basically the only "other" in the Western world for many years, and they suffered from persecutions."

"The Jewish case" was unique only in that Christians (for their own religious reasons) actually let Judaism survive in some form. Christians exterminated most of the other religions and minorities so completely that they never even had a chance to exist as "the 'other'" or be remembered.

And looking at the the foundational mythology of all three Abrahamic religions, as described in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua, it seems like all of them have been united in their violent hatred for anybody who does not accept their common God. That makes it rather hard for me to muster much enthusiasm for the cause of any of them.

"And with the western world, things are really bizarre in the eyes of the average Israeli. We don't really understand what they want from us. We gathered ourselves in a tiny state, far away from the West, and everyone is still obsessed with us."

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Israel could be dropping nuclear bombs on Iran, and when people express concern about that, they are being accused of being anti-Semitic? I mean, that's why we are talking about it here. Perhaps it also has to do with the billions in aid and weapons the West ships to Israel, and the question of whether that is a moral and responsible thing to do? Perhaps it has to do with the millions of Palestinian refugees that have been flooding the US and Europe and that are telling their stories? Perhaps it has to do with the discrimination, religious nuttery, and intolerance people like me see when we visit Israel?

I don't dispute Israel's right to exist. I just wish it would treat its minorities better and develop an attitude of tolerance and openness towards Palestinians. Until it does, it is just another barely democratic nation to me, and a sore disappointment from a people who really ought to know better.

@Mittanni,

In the name of the Jewish people - I thank Christians throughout all generations for letting us, the Jews, survive! You're hospitality and warmness is truly appreciated...

And you are wrong about the Jews showing any "violent hatred for anybody who does not accept their common God" - Judaism is non missionary - it does not seek to convert others. It's an ethno-religion - it's a common religion of an ethnic group. The way to become Jewish is to be born to a Jewish mother, just like people join other ethnic groups. The Jews of today are the descendants of those who refused to convert to other religions (and for this they were hated), but they never tried to convert anyone else.

"Israel could be dropping nuclear bombs on Iran". So do all other nuclear countries. And indeed, the attempts to destroy Iran with nuclear bombs are those that started the conflict in the Middle East, and that's why so many in the West are obsessed with Israel - it's really time that the Israeli president stop threatening to wipe Iran off the map!

Millions of Palestinians refugees (actually the descendants of the refugees) are not "flooding the US and Europe", they are locked in camps in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and even in the Palestinian territories (by the Palestinians themselves!), held as pawns to keep the conflict alive.

Discrimination and intolerance "people like you" see in Israel? I don't know what "people like you are", but surveys show that people who visit Israel have more favorable views of Israel and Israelis afterwards.

"Attitude of tolerance and openness toward Palestinians" - sounds good. I wish to see some tolerance and openness of Arabs toward Israel (or any of their minorities...). But for now I would be really satisfied with them keeping themselves from trying to destroy the tiny Jewish state.

@maorsh "In the name of the Jewish people - I thank Christians throughout all generations for letting us, the Jews, survive! You're hospitality and warmness is truly appreciated..."

I'm not a Christian. And your sarcasm is inappropriate. Through much of European history, Jews were the only significant religious minority even tolerated in most Christian countries. Jews had fewer rights than Christians, but by and large, they were participants in, not victims of, Christian Europe.

"And you are wrong about the Jews showing any "violent hatred for anybody who does not accept their common God" - Judaism is non missionary"

I'm not talking about missionary work, I'm talking about the Old Testament. God time and again commanded his followers to commit mass murder and genocide. Worshipping other gods, speaking out against Yahweh, and numerous other rule violations are punishable by death, even for non-Jews. Those are the views and morality that Christianity and Judaism share. Don't try to tell me that Judaism is somehow intrinsically more tolerant than Christianity.

"but surveys show that people who visit Israel have more favorable views of Israel and Israelis afterwards"

So did I, because I realized that there is actually a sizeable minority of Israelis that reject your views. Unfortunately, they have been fighting a losing political battle against people like you, and the end result is going to be disastrous for Israel and the Middle East. I just don't want my country to be dragged down with yours.