Sarrazin says Germany 'dumber' through immigration

It's got less to do with immigration or general intelligence and more to do with the "ist doch nur ein Kind" mentality.If you do everything for your kid, then your kid doesn't have to think (which is why I have to continually remind myself not to do so much for my kids)

Second to that is the fact that parents worry too much about letting their kids off the leash and letting them just go out and play - preferring to keep them within sight.

The last one is computer games which contrary to popular argument do *not* enhance intelligence except in a few marginal areas and do more damage to social skills than any possible intelligence enhancement.

Just a reminder, in 1960s Germany asked for workers to come and work in factories or so on.. did not look for a degree or did not ask for scientists and academics.. what you do is what you get.. and it is also them who are giving the visas for the residence..

Besides, the newer generations are much more better than the first ones.. at least trying to do something even though it is Ausbildung.. there are also some going to universities..

I am a Turk doing Phd in Germany (but did not grow up here) and I sometimes totally agree with the government perception about Turks, but also so sick to read news like it.. and this bad repetation about Turkey is so bothering.. If you come to Turkey and see the real Turks, I am sure you will be suprised.. anyway hard to find a way in the middle...

This is neither here nor there. It's time the government did much more to address the lose/lose situation of fearful Germans who won't have children (it's easy, try it, you might like it). Until this changes German's will continue to feel aggrevieved w/ a dwindling, ever ageing native population in their own land.

It sounds as though Herr Sarrazin has been dipping into his "Mein Kampf" again -- perhaps he should run for office in Arizona. The attitudes all match up pretty well. And the Hessian Business Association that let this garbage go...?

He needs to be fired. Or allowed to speak so long that he finally says something you can charge him with and lock the f*cker away. So sick of him.

...a littel less here on the moustache and little less there... hmmm, yes, or?

He is probably right in the numbers he is saying. But he hasnt pointed out the root cause of the problem.

Would anybody with a brilliant career, degree from a top notch University, having a wonderful life somewhere else in the world would bother to immigrate to Germany to do integration courses and answer questions in general like 'How long will you stay in Germany' ?`

No, Germany can't expect this. With such culture (though this is the way it is like) and rules, only vegetable sellers, Dönner sells, fruit sellers would like immigrate to Germany. They would have no problem in spending their energies in doing state sponsered integration courses. And still they can't feel proud to say 'yes, I am German now'.

The point is, if you say, these are the terms on which you can live in Germany then you can't expect immigrants of your choice.

Oh it still not that bad here :)

Xenophobia and racism is still alive and well in some people.

Well, I am not an Arab, nor a Turk nor an African. I am highly educated and surely much smarter than most Germans and certainly Sarazzin. Haven't some Germans still learned? After having their asses kicked in the World War. It really is a pity. At least, it is good that there are enough Germans who distance themselves from some xenophobic and racist Germans.

How smart you actually are mathew7aby is up for debate. Of course Sarazzin in right, its just not very politic in some quarters point out the truth. And heaven forbid the Germans, after "having their asses kicked in the World War" should have anything to say about who they allow in their own country.

Well Whatzup,

I am not here to prove who is smarter. There is no need to do that.

However, you probably are just like one of the umpteen Nazis across the globe. So, no point arguing with you. People like you never learn even if you have your asses kicked. You just need to get kicked again and again. That just proves how dumb people like the Nazis and how dumb xenophobic people like you are.

I wonder if anyone has ever told him he doesn't look too particularly smart himself....

I think he´s pissed off because an auslander won Germany´s next top model.

Without question, Germany is very much a xenophobic country. Caucasians seem to be welcome, but other ethnic groups are frowned upon. I have to agree with Sarrazin up to a point. The types that are immigrating to Germany are mostly of poor or limited education, not necessary low intelligence. They are looking for a better life than what they can find in their home countries. Well educated foreigners are not going to immigrate to Germany if they are going to be basically unwelcome, have a difficult time finding lodging or jobs and let¦#39;s face it; language is a barrier (German is not the easiest language to learn). If I were a non-white I wouldn¦#39;t want to live here.

@OkieinBerlin you have no clue about what is going on in Arizona. That alone shows a lack of credibility!

If you don't like it in Germany, GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM!

otherwise make the best of it and try to integrate with Germany. too many want Germany to assimilate to their homeland...

"We¦#39;re becoming on average dumber through natural means,¦quot; he told the group.

That coming out of Sarrazin's mouth is just a grossly vast Oxymoron.

Marimay,

Have you even seen me? Are you also part of the xenophobic bandwagon or more?

Auniquecorn,

I find it very weird that some white folks out here seem to know a thing or two about racism especially in a country like Germany. It is like George Bush talking about Texas being invaded and suffering at the hands of the invaders:)

JohnnesKönig --

I have a clue about what's going on in Arizona, in fact more than a clue, and I agree with OkieinBerlin on this one. Sarrazin would fit in nicely with that racist, xenophobic teabagger crowd in Phoenix. His comments reveal his own ignorance rather than that of the people he is vilifying.

JohnnesKönig,

It is easy for a guy like you to ask foreigners like OkieinBerlin to go back just like that. For one, people like him are here because there are too many idiotic and lazy natives here who cannot do the job that many foreigners do. I am not talking about low level jobs but highly skilled professionals. A foreigner may have invested a lot of his time and money to get integrated in Germany and probably spent a lot on other stuff like the highly inflated costs for getting a driving licence here. Last but not the least, if all Germans were Nazis, people like him and me would not be here. I never said all Germans were Nazis. They are not. Some Germans here are really nice and sensible. They know their past and learned from it. What I find strange is how some idiotic people like you never seem to learn

Owain,

Now, Aldi is bad because it is not run by Germans and because there are no Germans working there? Not that you said that but what you wrote implies that? Don't make us laugh out here. The Aldi near my place is full of Germans. The owners of Aldi are Germans as far as I know unless you took over it

the reason why highly qualified arabs, turks and other middle eastern people are so few in a country is because people of that country treat them not good and dont respect them, so obviously who stays, is of a lower quality.

A highly qualified professional expect you to respect him and give him a chance to grow as you give to an american for example. but you dont do it, then he doesnt stay in a country where he doesnt have dignity.

That means it is YOUR fault that quality immigrants are not attracted to you country.

Well mathew7aby it seems that not only aren't you displaying any evidence that you are " highly educated and surely much smarter than most Germans and certainly Sarazzin" but quite the contrary in equating xenophobia with the legitimate desire of Germany to control immigration to its own advantage. In your twisted rationale "having their asses kicked in the World War" (I'm quite sure it wasn't you who did any of the kicking) seems to preclude the germans from having any say in their own border enforcement. Good luck with all your "education" if trying to tar people with a legitimate interest in public policy as racist is the best you can come up with.

ha ha nice to see some good people talking sense and it is not that Germany does not have highly qualified foreigners. I think most of the foreigners from countries like India who are in Germany are highly qualified and they are usually highly welcomed by Germany. In fact, Germany has opened its borders for highly qualified people.

Whatzup,

Shout all you want, Cry all you want and now try to belittle my education. You know the truth, I know the truth but you just do not want to accept it. Anyways, leave that out. Of course, Germany has a right to decide who to let in and who not to let in. When did I have a problem with that. I have a problem with people like Sarrazin who say that Germany has more dumber people because of letting in more foreigners . That is racist to me and that is xenophobic to me. It would be to any sane person other than people like you. Not saying you are dumb but for a guy to agree to what Sarrazin said , he would either have to be dumb or xenophobic or both. I like both. The whole reason why I said that the German had their asses kicked in the World War was to highlight the fact that many Germans at that time thought that they were the master race and everyone else who was not white and have blue eyes and whatever characteristics they deemed necessary to be worthy of living were inferior. However, they were proved wrong. They had their asses kicked. Some of them did not learn and those are the ones who are still shouting out and waiting for their asses to get kicked again. They were proven wrong then . They will be proven wrong again. Yet, you don't get it. I don't blame you. I know why you don't get it. It is not technically your fault.

ElleWoods has a point here: in the 60s Germany invited many so called guest workers from various countries to come and help build up the economy. They were given the status of temporary workers, hence nobody really expected them to be educated or to master the German language. Initially their contracts were limited to 5 years, upon which they were supposed to leave. Yet none implemented that initial plan, so the workers stayed, and what is more, were given the right to reunite with their families. Since the families were still (theoretically) expected to leave some day, the guest workers' children were taught in their respective languages (Turkish, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese), rather than being encouraged to achieve proficiency in German. The federal state I live in (Hesse) abolished "native language classes" (muttersprachlicher Unterricht) only 6 years ago. So what we are witnessing now, what has been going on since the 90s, is a gradual change in the public attitude towards migration. It took Germany long to realize that it has gradually become a country of immigrants. A fact many are still denying. It will take some generations, I assume, to complete the transformation. One fact remains true though, namely that the different ethnic groups show great differences in their degree of integration. According to the official report this January, the Turkish are the least integrated group in terms of language proficiency, academic education and employment, while ethnic Germans show the best results. The question is what can be done to effectively promote integration and to bridge cultural differences, which are, admittedly, greater between the Germans and the Turkish than between the Germans and other groups.

Your reply is disappointing mathew7aby despite (or perhaps because of ) your claim to be so "highly educated". No one here is shouting and crying except you and your nonsensical posts that have no other point but to reiterate over and over that the germans had their asses kicked in world war II. Despite that fact some of them, as evidenced by Mr. Sarrazin retain a modicum of common sense regardless of the pressure from politically correct morons like yourself. So tell us again how the germans had their asses kicked in the last war and how xenophobic they all are when they don't agree with you.

So far we've established:

- Germany can choose whom to let into the country.

- Germany has a multiculturalism issue.

- Germany got it's "ass kicked in the last war", I believe it was.

- Immigrants are often not well-educated.

Right. So, back to the point of the article. The man is obviously speaking in terms of national averages. Now, if you supplement your population with a much larger number of lesser-educated individuals... and note I didn't say stupid, or inferior, or whatever, before the flame wars start - just lesser-educated... then yes, of course you are going to drop the average intelligence. A country's education is composed of more than you learn at University. Etiquette, common knowledge good, the principles of society, and more than a few scholastic wisdoms, these things are all passed down from person to person; school rarely has anything to do with it. If a curious child says, "How do rain drops appear?", and the parent is well educated, that is 15 mins conversation he won't have to have with a teacher someday - thereby, naturally, giving him/her and advantage. If the parent, conversely, says, "It's God's will.", then that child remains ignorant, for the moment.

So, yes, the man is entirely right. It could, perhaps, been more tactfully phrased, but the man is an financier, not a public speaker.

Hey JohannesKönig, OkieinBerlin here -- I am pretty well informed about what is going on in Arizona. I read plenty of newspapers and am pretty familiar with Arizona's history and politics. And I see that Herr Sarrazin and Arizona Republicans share same kind of racist, fear-mongering attacks on minority immigrant communities.

pmach, your fears about the coming "extinction" of redheads and blondes are astounding... I don't even want to know where you come up with this "science", it is so twisted.

Those people who are attacking Arizona's law apparently are ok with the murders of ranchers, home invasions, drug-trafficing and other crimes being committed by illegal aliens. Oh and don't forget all the kidnappings that happen because of the illegal invasion.

The media has got you wrapped around their finger with their sob stories and so-called racism stories. Importing home invaders and more gang-bangers and people who bring down wages and reduce job opportunities is bad logic.

Are you aware of the horrific littering these illegals have caused in Arizona - in particular the desert where they cross over?

Try living in neighborhoods with tattoed gang-bangers and see if you like it.

OkieinBerlin

Listen putz try;

Blondes 'to die out in 200 years' from BBC NEWS as only ONE example.

Enable Mexico to take over 4 US States and you're considered a hero and "PC".

Tell Germans to save their identity and get their birth rate up and you're a villian.

I think he is telling the truth.

pmach --

"Putz" is a Yiddish term for "prick." To refer to another poster as such is highly inappropriate, and consistent with your demonstrable lack of intelligence.

Thanks for that waste of a moment Prufrock. And by the way PUTZ has nothing to do with intelligence except for those who lack it and need a comeback... albeit a lame one at that.

You're welcome. I'm sure I didn't have to point out what a vile, hate-mongering, cretinous, illiterate putz you are, as you reveal that to one and all with every keystroke you write.

By the way, I loved your reference to the "indigenous white people" of the USA and Canada. You must be one of those immigrants that Sarrazin was referring to.

This isn't about hate Prufrock its about the numbers. The only words of hate are from you just now above making assumptions.

Prove me wrong on the numbers or integration...... sorry that's rhetorical..because you cant. Anyways Prufrock perhaps sit back listen and and learn something for a change you crusty old fart of a goat. Or better yet why don't you take a stab and enlighten us on the value of immigrations without any integration management ie the current reality.

@Prufrock2010 The bill passed by Arizona is the same as the Federal law that the Feds will not enforce! 75% of US citizens support this bill. People like you are quick to resort to name calling. That tells me you have no real argument.

@mathew7aby I am an educated American working in Germany! I have no problem with immigrants. I just feel if you want to complain then maybe you should have stayed home. Germany can be a good home. Make the best of it!

@mathew7aby your intelligence is on full display it seems... Are you evidence of Sarrazin's opinion?

FYI

While it is true that "guest workers" were invited, by the time the Turks showed up, there was not a need for guest workers any more.

Due to his remarks he proved he is dumber than the ones he mentioned. The sad thing is that nobody in the audience said nothing. Do they just agree with him or are just too dumb to show him that he should not be making these kinds of statement public? He should keep his nazi beliefs for himself and his family.

By the way, isn´t the system guilty of not giving opportunity in the educational system to immigrant children when they go to the fifith grade, by allowing a teacher to say if a child can go to this or that kind of school? Here in Germany they define too early who is going to go to university and who is going to be "fruit seller", many times based on family backgrounds.

JohnnesKönig --

"The bill passed by Arizona is the same as the Federal law that the Feds will not enforce!"

Where do you get this bit of misinformation? Actually, it is not, as the Arizona bill specifically provides for racial and ethnic profiling, which is illegal under US federal law. Read it.

More importantly, notwithstanding your unsupported contention that 75% of the American population supports this bill (which is entirely irrelevant), the bill is facially unconstitutional, as the states have no jurisdiction when it comes to immigration law. That is strictly a federal matter that cannot be legislated by the states under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. You simply do not know what you are talking about with respect to this subject. This law will be enjoined by a federal court before it ever goes into effect.

Umm Prufrock 2010 thats not quite true. The Arizona law explicitly forbids law enforcement officials from racial profiling when determining who to stop and question. And the matter as to whether individual states can enact law that co-exists on matters within the federal purview has yet to be decided in this particular case. I'm not as confident as you seem to be that the arizona law will be found unconstitutional.

I guess it was the Turks who bought "Bundles" of bad household mortgages and not Bankers.

The truth hurts...particularly when it hits you right between the eyes!

He is 100% correct. The liberals are ruining Germany. A bleeding heart starves a healthy mind.

Prufrock2010 You have been given the FACTS, yet you still refuse to listen. Have you read the Bill? Or just spouting off like all the illegals making a protest? If you wont let us educate you, then read it for yourself and get smarter! Then you can say your not one that this article is talking about...

His comments are supported by years of research and should be uncontroversial. Also, see IQ and the Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen.

(2005) Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 11, 311-319.

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005hereditarian-hypothesis.pdf

What gets you in trouble is when you point out that the emperor has no clothes. Hans Christian Anderson was all wrong: the crowd wouldn't start to laugh at the naked emperor, they'd get really, really mad at the little boy who said what they all knew.

The Netherlands has Geert Wilder and Germany has Thilo Sarrazin.

Yes Mr. Sarrazin, blame the Turkish, Middle East and African immigrants for Germany¦#39;s social and economic problems.

On the subject of intelligence being pass on by parents to their children, what does that say about European culture and education?

Are the Turkish, Middle East and African immigrants responsible for the collapse and bailout of the real estate and banking industries?

What about the billions of Euros that have been spent by Germany fighting a war in a Country that did not attack or threaten The Federal Republic of Germany?

Whatever the motivation for your remarks, you seem to lack the benefits of your education.

The majority of people living in Turkey today are Europeans and in the Middle East many are German or German descent.

I wonder how the Palestinians and Africans feel about the intelligence of their European occupiers and colonist?

Xenophobia and ignorance are a toxic mix.

So, pmach has resorted to name-calling: about the level of discourse one has come to expect from the parade of clowns following the FoxNews circus. Keep it up, pendejo, and you too can have your own radio show!

The Netherlands certainly does have Geert Wilder and europe can thank God for that. And on the wild assertion that the Taliban in Afghanistan doesn't threaten the West one can only guess that trevzns has been living on Pluto the last 10 years and is unaware of the Madrid and London bombings. The muslim underclass in europe is a huge problem about which many leaders are rightly concerned. Some like Wilder are convinced that it won't take much to set off an explosion of a substantial minority of them.

Usually, the short-term goal of any immigrant when moving to another country, particularly a country with a vastly different language and culture, is to accomplish economically,educationally and socially what cannot be done at home. The long-term goal is usually to ensure that your children (because immigrants, including myself, like to have sex and for some odd reason this produces children) do much better than yourself. If there is a failure for a group to progress then there is a fundamental problem at the home level. Whether this is a cultural issue or due to the fact the government brought in these groups as temporary workers and so they did not feel obliged to integrate I cannot say, not having the full history of either side.

Arizona is a completely different issue. People often forget that there is a serious escalating drug war in Mexico at the moment, that is spilling over violently into Arizona. Neighborhoods have changed drastically from suburbs to high crime areas. One only has to watch the Nat Geo show Border Wars to see the amount of money the US government has to spend every year combating this growing epidemic. I am not saying that the law that was passed is correct, but what I am saying is that for the majority of Arizonians, the root cause of this law is not racism, but an attempt to combat a serious problem.

Whats up, Whatzup?

It¦#39;s not the first time I have been called a foreigner, or suggested I¦#39;m a descendant of aliens. Like many aliens of my culture, I am proud of my Heritage and know where I came from.

Yes, I am aware of the bombings in Madrid and London, my visit to my home plant Pluto was delayed by the bombing in London. :-)

Whatzup, Individuals such as Mr. Wilder and Mr. Sarrazin are products of their environments.

What about you Whatzup? Egotism is unhealthy. Consider reading a few good history books on the regions of Europe now called The Netherlands and Germany, what you will discover may reduce the level of your ignorance?

I'll leave all the ignorance to you trevzns and egotism has nothing to do with it. On my part I'll continue to watch events in europe as they unravel much as they are in the US, due on both continents to ill considered immigration policies. Environmental pollution isn't the only kind of contamination that threatens western society, history books notwithstanding.

***Arizona is a completely different issue. ***

Immigration from Mexico also involves the issue poorly educated migrants and assimilation issues that are greater than those experienced by previous waves of migrants. Philip Roth in the June 2001 edition of Personal Psychology published a meta-analysis showing a 10 point average difference between the Hispanic migrants & US average.

A basic issue is that if a groups have different average levels of ability, then you get inequal outcomes leading to social tension.

Gottfredson, L. S. (2006). Social consequences of group differences in cognitive ability (Consequencias sociais das diferencas de grupo em habilidade cognitiva). In C. E. Flores-Mendoza & R. Colom (Eds.), Introducau a psicologia das diferencas individuais (pp. 433-456). Porto Allegre, Brazil: ArtMed Publishers.

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2004socialconsequences.pdf

@Biorealist...once there are jobs in a country that the educated masses/general population refuse or are unable to perform, there will always be a need for lesser educated migrants...social tension often only arises when these groups are forced to compete for the same resources, for example jobs during a recession. A great real world example of this is what is currently happening in Spain's Andalusia region:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/world/europe/16spain.html?scp=1&sq=spain%20strawberries%20migrant&st=cse

Does the 10 point difference in "Hispanic" migrants deal with Mexicans only or all hispanic peoples who migrated to America which include whites, blacks, asians and other? I also truly question the opinion you inferred from this study of "Hispanics" that the assimilation issues of Mexicans are indeed greater than the Irish, Italians, Jews, Asians and other nationalities that came to the US. Are these greater assimilation issues due to lack of education or other social factors such as perhaps more liberal rights laws allowing one to reside in the US without having to integrate fully? e.g. not having to speak English. Finally, I again extend the opinion that Arizona is a different scenario for the main fact that the majority of Turkish, Middle Eastern or what have you immigrants here in Germany are here legally...the Mexicans in the US, usually not.

On a personal and I do admit petty note, your English requires some checking...I do hate it when people quote me Psychology and Sociology texts that it appears they are unable to read.

Whatzup, now I have a better understanding of your concerns. Western societies are contaminated and threaten, I do agree. Much of European society and US American societies were build from the accomplishments of immigrants.

In world history Europeans are infants and immature as a culture.

The envoy that exists today in western societies towards immigrants of non-European culture is in part a result of western occupation, colonization and slavery during the past 700 years or so.

The US is about 234 years old? The last Muslim society to occupy and rule in Europe for 800 years was in decline when Columbus set sail in 1492.

HMMM It's obviously he dislikes the whole idea of immigration. Sarrazin should just come out and say such and stop hiding behind the smokes and mirrors of his highly ignorant comments. Because one must be aware of what you ask for....you only want highly skilled immigrants in the country, I guess that leaves the low paying jobs for the Germans? Maybe that is what Sarrazin ultimately wants. OR maybe he wants no low pay jobs or jobs without prestige to exist in Germany...maybe he plans to have robots feed and maintain the society???? He is supposedly intelligent, can he fix a pipe line busted in his home?

It's not about ''well if they dont want that type of people in your country dont give the visa''....as that is not the issue. It's about showing up ignorant attitudes especially when fingers are pointed. But I guess Sarrazin has no interest in competing on the world stage with the likes of US, UK and Canada etc...whose mega successful economies were built on the back on immigrants (it's too much to call it a coincidence when success occurred as immigration increased for all of them).

Just be aware the views of Sarrazin does not represent the views of all Germans. And I dont fall into the category which he isolates and dislikes.

And now trevzns the status quo in europe is shifting again in europe in favor of an inferior culture by the abdication of western work ethic, culture and religion throughout the continent. Are you incensed that I use the adjective inferior in describing the culture middle east? If so the next time you need a heart transplant or even an appendectomy I recommend that you travel to the middle east for one. Shall I continue with the rest of the arts and sciences? I suspect I don't have too. The point is that simply by filling up with cheap labor Germany and the rest of europe is cutting its own throat. Way before these folks become acclimatized and educated they are going to turn around and bite the hand that tried to use them. The resulting chaos will ruin the chances of kids and grandchildren for a better life. What a pity after folks like Mr. Wilder tried to warn us beforehand.

Prufrock2010.. Sorry but the Arizona law DOES mirror the federal law. It mandates that if a cop stops a driver for some other offense, then he is alowed to inquire about the status of the driver. The driver must have a license btw.

We are tired of being murdered (a rancher was recently murdered on his own property by illegals), having houses burglarized, vandalized, having garbage dumped, being robbed etc by illegals. Phoenix is now the kidnap capital of the U.S. and second only to Mexico City in the western hemisphere. Maybe you don't mind family members being robbed or killed but we do.

I might add that legal Mexicans of which there are many, would have no problem with this law. As a matter of fact a large precentage of legal hispanics support the law. Are they racists too? What part of illegal don't you understand?

@ jade_divoff #76

***once there are jobs in a country that the educated masses/general population refuse or are unable to perform, there will always be a need for lesser educated migrants...social tension often only arises when these groups are forced to compete for the same resources, for example jobs during a recession.***

1. The US has ample lesser educated people.

2. Social tension also arises from inequality. This is why you see pressure on institutions like MIT to introduce more Latino or african american students & staff.

***I also truly question the opinion you inferred from this study of "Hispanics" that the assimilation issues of Mexicans are indeed greater than the Irish, Italians, Jews, Asians and other nationalities that came to the US. Are these greater assimilation issues due to lack of education ***

In terms of the difficulties with assimilation, I would also recommend this article by Jason Richwine 'The Congealing Pot'.

"That assimilation has stalled even among third-generation Hispanics growing up today is especially sobering. In the early 20th century, the quality of schools varied greatly, high-school graduation was unusual, travel was relatively difficult, and universities and employers were free to discriminate based on ethnicity. Today all but the worst inner-city schools are well funded, high-school graduation is expected, traveling around the country to look for work is much easier, and affirmative-action programs give preferences to Hispanics. Despite these advantages over earlier immigrants, today¦#39;s Hispanics have not closed the socioeconomic gap with white natives...

The consequences of a large ethno-cultural group¦#39;s lagging behind the majority in education and income are significant. In strictly economic terms, perpetually poor immigrants and their descendants will be a major strain on social spending and infrastructure. Health care, public education, welfare payments, the criminal justice system, and programs for affordable housing will all require more tax dollars. When pro-immigration conservatives declare that these government programs should be scaled back or eliminated entirely, I am sympathetic. But a large public sector is a reality that cannot be wished away — we will not be abolishing Medicaid or public schools anytime soon. Immigration policy needs to take that reality into account."

http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=

It's easy to forget that you, me and everybody else in the world are the decedents of poor immigrants wandering around the world looking for a better life.

And Sarrazin is not doing the gene pool in Germany any good.

At least Sarrazin speaks his mind. Not some fake PC bull.

This discussion reminds me of a quote from Abe Lincoln----"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

***so don't you (or anybody else) well dare accuse me of advocating eugenics!***

As opposed to dysgenics? That is the trend in most developed countries as the more educated women tend to have fewer children. As Professor James Flynn has pointed out, "Everyone knows if we only allowed short people to reproduce there would be a tendency in terms of genes for height to diminish. Intelligence is no different from other human traits".

There is plenty of research showing that a countries average cognitive ability hugely important for societal development. This is partly heritable so it makes sense to select for smart immigrants.

Talent Development & Excellence, Vol. 1, No. 1, 2009, 3-25

http://www.iratde.org/issues/1-2009/tde_issue_1-2009_03_rindermann_et_al.pdf

****2) Reducing child poverty and child crime has absolutely nothing at all to do with reducing the number of children.***

farmerandy,

Have you read Steven Levitt's book 'Freakanomics'? An interesting side effect of the Roe v Wade decision allowing abortions in the US, was that a large number of poor and teenage mothers were able to access abortion. Previously, only the rich had been able to afford this privately.

Levitt found that this had a substantial impact in reducing crime in the 1990's:

"Far more interesting from our perspective is the possibility

that abortion has a disproportionate effect on the births of those who are most at risk of engaging in criminal behavior. To the extent that abortion is more frequent among those parents who are least willing or able to provide a nurturing home environment, as a large and growing body of evidence suggests, the impact of legalized abortion on crimemight be far greater than its effect on fertility rates.10 This is particularly true given that 6 percent of any birth cohort will commit roughly half the crime.

Prior to the legalization of abortion, there was a very strong

link between the number of unwanted births and low maternal

education over the period from 1965 through 1970 [Commission

on Population Growth and the American Future 1972, p. 98].

"The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime." Quarterly Journal of Economics, 2001, 116(2), pp. 379­420. (with Donohue, John J., III).

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

Eugenics got a bad reputation during World War II because of the Nazis, but as uncomfortable as it makes people, there is underlying truth to it. If you have problems thinking about breeding humans for desirable characteristics, make an analogy to dogs. Breed like to like to conserve desirable traits. The more intelligent people breed, the higher the average IQ will be in a nation. I do not confuse undereducated with intelligence. Poverty itself will negatively impact IQ as well, as lack of nutrition, exposure to lead paint, lack of stimulous will all be detrimental to children's IQs. Perhaps all industrial nations need to enforce their college degree requirement before allowing foreigners to become citizens, if they have them.

In my neck of the woods in the GREAT SATAN the problem is with german-russian immigrants. They are so stupid, the local school board, which is comprised mostly of swedish and irish Americans, are worried that the new influx of german-speaking immigrants will dumb down the local test scores. Most of us are far more intelligent than these new german migrants. We are smart enough to even read foreign newspapers online, mostly for a good laugh.