Homeschooling German family granted US asylum

Next up - Andre Shepard gets asylum in Germany.

Yea lovely. As if we dont have enough Conservatives Christians of our own. Lets start importing them as well!

-fled

+left

Good...if they want them, they can have them.

Exactly right!!! This act of war must be equally retaliated. Let the asylum wars begin

But there is a new way for Germans who can't get a green card..... Just stop sending your kids to school and it will all work out.

The Romeike family affair seems to illustrate how limited religious freedom really is in Germany. As long as one obeys the dictates of one of the established churches, or doesn't openly challenge them, all is well. But as soon as the Romeikes asserted a little religious independence, the state came down on them, hard. Where were the German churches in this case? Why have they not defended the religious freedoms of this family? They seem to have little enough reluctance to become involved in Germans' secular affairs. Perhaps conservative Christians in the US irritate the sensibilites of some, but but they do have a constitutional right to practice their religion.

I'd rather have Richard Dawkins teach my children over Ted Haggard.

It's not about religious freedom... it's about educations for the children and having a certain level of education. Kids also need to interact with other kids and have a social life, they usually get this in school.

Quoted from the thelocal because the comments don't show up on TT:The family has every right to opt out of religious education. If even the secular classes such as biology and history are too 'anti-Christian' for this family, you have to weigh the rights of the parents to practice their religion against the children's rights to an education, so where do you draw the line?

If my religion dictated that children shouldn't be taught at all and that books are the work of the devil, would that give me the right to deny my kids an education and keep the illiterate? Would that be religious freedom or child abuse?

That is decided by the law of the land and in this case german law states that children must have a basic 'education'. What one chooses to teach on top is up to you. This is applicable to all people and all religions - freedom of religion is not freedom to break the law.

And, if you don't like the law, there are safeguards to enable it to be changed.

The same is actually true in the US - only the fine print changes like what is a basic education and how one can obtain it to ensure compliance.

(I can just imagine the comments if this was a muslim/german family and amnesy in egypt :)

Well the law sucks.

How do I change it?

Well, first you find a couple of million like-minded souls... Which means you will need to articluate a working alternative. Or, at least, a rallying cry, like say: "Why waste education on the young!" That should do it!

Or is it 'the law' as a general concept that you don't like?

It might be interesting to note that not all home-schooling is done for religious reasons, even though that seems to be the most visible aspect. In addition, in many areas, home-schooled children have scored much higher than publicly schooled children on standardized tests, and have a much broader and more consistent emotional state.

it's just a matter of choice - a choice as to who should have the right to twist and deform these children's minds as they see fit. the state or their parents?

Good riddance.

yee haw.,ah surely hopes they bin given a lil log cabin up in dem mountains sumwhere with a still out back an all,gawd bless em dem god feerin folk

I think the use of the terms FLED and PERSECUTION are completely out of line. They chose to live somewhere else because the laws of their country didn't allow them to do what they wanted. I don't see a human rights issue here. This type of language is reminiscent of the campaign the Scientologists ran against Germany in the 1990's. Always effective rhetoric to use against Germany in particular, it would seem. This family chose America because they knew they would find a sympathetic fundamentalist Christianity that would support their cause. Otherwise they could have crossed over to the UK, where home schooling is legal, however fundamentalist Christians are few and far between.

The fact that they were granted political asylum in the US is, in my humble opinion, an abomination to the idea of political asylum. There was no oppression, just an unwillingness to participate in society. Imagine if Europe started granting asylum to all the American gay couples that have been barred from marrying by various state constitutions. Now that to me is much more of a human rights issue deserving of political asylum.

The Americans, of course, will only understand that individual rights are not being granted. They won't understand the historical reasons that these specific limitations are put in the German Grundgesetz. They won't understand the importance to the Germans of a cohesive society minimising the possibility of maintained parallel societies. Social cohesion has that nasty word "social" in it, that Americans find so distasteful. They'll only see the preeminent right of the individual. American society is ordered in a very different way, so if that way works for this family, let them have it. Let's just not call it ASYLUM.

This is bad for a country which followed the Nazis politicaly by taking a Christian path with the Christian Democrats. It makes that look like a sham.

I don´t see a problem with homeschooling. Actually many children who are homeschooled end up doing better than those who attend regular schools. I´ve read statistics, don´t ask me for the source though.....

Parents should be able to decide how they want to educate their children. There´s a difference between "homeschooling" and just not sending your children to school AND not teaching them.

I don´t understand why doesn´t the German government allow parents the option not to send their children to regular schools if parents are committed to educating their children properly.

Perhaps there should be some form of test at different levels, just to see if the children are at the levels of their peers in regular schools, but for the state to fine the parents because they don´t send their children to regular schools is way out of proportion in my opinion.

I know friends who have gone to Catholic schools, though they are protestant and one still has to deal with various religious differences. PLUS they have religious education, for which one has to write the "right" answer according to the books in the curriculum but are "wrong" according to the Bible.

How can one teach Christianity without relying on the truths from the Bible???? What on earth are the children learning in schools?

Its confusing enough to grow up in an age where truths are blurred but its even worse if one is taught one thing in the Bible but in religious education tells them something else. Evolution (taught in schools) just doesn´t fit with creationism from the Bible.

And you can´t teach Evolution without getting religious. Or spiritual.

I come from a country where religious education is separated from regular education and I personally find that much better since religion shouldn´t be a "subject" taught in school like maths.

I personally find that religious education has confused people more than helped them. My hubby, who spent 17 years on on religious education in school, had no idea that Jesus is the son of God.- Makes me really question if religious education is just a facade to teach "truths" at the expense of accuracy.

@d-j-US. Correct. However, most of the 'studies' are misleading because children with parents who care passionately about their offspring's education are compared with children of mixed care / don't care parents (even when normalized for socio-economics etc.) It is probably impossible to compare like with like.

OTOH. There is nothing to suggest that the individual attention received by many homeschooled is not beneficial to them.

@freidekreis. Spot on.

Donnelly should realize that U.S. law is not valid in other independant countries. It can be seen what the general level of education is like where going to school is not mandatory and kids are taught that the world is not over 6,000 years old.

Sorry - I really don't know what all this discussion is about...

This Romeike family is just insane, and the US lawyers/judges did a lousy job triggered by whatever.

A German family who gets asylum granted by the US... Am I dreaming or what???

The Romeikes have five children? And this other family with similar issues in Hessen, they have seven children? There you go...

This is sooo ridiculous!!!

@kreidekreis: You said what I think and feel - you just found the better words, thank you.

Since when do our children belong to the state? You all cried out against communism because the State was not supposed to take what is yours! This good, loving, peaceful family (and many like them) has done only one thing, and that is to take responsibility for the education of their own children and for this they had to flee the intolerance of a "western-civilized" land to find the freedom to so in America! Since when is loving your children a crime? I truly can't understand why so many in these comments are having their knives out for these people? My children belong first of all to me, and it's my wife's and my responsibility to raise them, not any government's!

Well, this issue shouldn't be so complex. There are benefits to both conventional and homeschooling. However, it would be wise to follow the law as it is. If you don't agree with it, then work to change it. The potential for fines and jail times is good for no one, especially not for the kids.

At the end of the day, Germany would without question, be a much more harmonious and prosperous nation, if it were to create an educational system that is based on morality.

Surely I'm not the only one that knows this?

In my book this has nothing to do with religious freedom per se but with protecting basic rights of the children. After all plenty of other practices that may be associated with one religion or another are illegal as well because they affect the rights of others. I personally do not think homeschooling has to be bad (though it most certainly can be, especially in the case of religious extremists), but I am glad it is not legal here.

I also cannot help but think that this must be a slap in the face of anyone who has applied for asylum in the US before because their well-being and maybe even life genuinely depended on it, and who wasn't granted asylum, when a family from Germany is just so they can homeschool their kids.

This decision is a mistake, but somehow I don't think that Germany will be trying very hard to repatriate these particular nutcases

This is sooooo ridiculous!!! :D :D

I'm glad that especially for such strong religious families homescooling is NOT allowed here! I mean who knows what they want to teach their children if they think that German schools are "evil" and not teaching the proper values?? I mean hello, Germany is as far as I know the only country in Europe which includes "Religion" as a full subject at school, counting as much as i.g. Maths! I did part of my graduation (Abitur) in the subject Religion. There is more Religion (Christian and other) and values in this educational system than many other countries. There is even an offer for people with other religions where values are the main subject and to get to know the many different religions in the world.

I this family couln't deal with our school system though, I would call them Christian EXTREMISTS. And sorry, I think it's right to stop any "extreme" parents from teaching their children their extreme values, no matter what religion they are. I think one has to think about that too! What is it all about when people are scared because of extreme Moslems? Don't extreme Christians scare you too? I am scared of them!

Good luck with 7 new extremists in your country. I really wonder why the court in the US didn't just lough at them and send them home or give them another option to stay in the US. Why did it have to be asylum?

And why didn't the family just go away before they would get problems with the court in Germany? They knew it would cause problems and that it's a law here to sent your children to school. So why didn't they just leave the country before their children were old enough for school?? If you don't like something than either try to change it (which was sure it wouldn't work!), learn to deal with it, or just go! But don't make yourself ridiculous by asking for asylum as if your home country tried to kill you or so if you didn't belive what they believe!!

Whenever I feel like I like to spend the rest of my life in the US, I know a way how to know, thanks. ^^ (but first of all I'd like to spent a holiday in the USA, I've always wanted to come to visit. When I'll get my bachelor maybe I can! :) )

there are several private religious schools, why don't they send their kids there? If even those schools are too (evil? liberal?) .. wow, I guess it's good those nutcases are gone. On the other hand, poor kids, they have to live with crazy parents and probably have no idea whats going on.

With 6 kids, the correct answer is probably "too expensive"

The funny thing is, I'm sure the churches didn't want them here neither. They offer the Religion at school and if someobody doesn't want it and thinks everything ele is evil too, church distances itself from these people. The churches don't want to be get connected with extreme persons.

Hey, what about that girl from England who wasn't allowed to wear a "purity ring thing" at school? Did she fill in her asylum form for the US yet?? :P :D

We home schooled our children when we lived in Texas for a few years. The American public education system is horribly underfunded so the schools can be quite bad. We had several bad experiences and were fed up. I have nothing good to say about public schools in Texas. I felt that the schools were drug pushers trying to get as many students as possible on Ritalin.

Home schooling is very popular in the US. It is not the religious right who practice home schooling. A significant number of parents do not want their children to have a poor educational experience. Home schooling is not a complete free form education. We had choices of various curriculum and techniques developed by professional educators. We met with other students and home schoolers weekly to ensure a balanced outlook. Overall, it was a good experience. One son is now a junior in university and the other is about to graduate high school.

Home schooling is a reasonable alternative. I will now step down from my soapbox.

:) I believe that!

I only think it's not worth begging for asylum. ^^

"2012 Oscars" Category - True Life Drama

Parents: "Hans, Hilda, I want you to follow what the Word of God teaches! You need to learn to love all people. Take care for the weak, look after the orphans and widows. Make sure to you keep yourself pure and holy before God."

.... a knock on the door...

"Open up, it's the police!!!!"

Parents: With fear in their voices..... "Yes, come in please.."

Police officer: "We have an order to take your children from you! You have been homeschooling them! Our society can't handle well behaved, moral children taught by their own parents to love God and follow the Bible! You religious extremist! Get the kids! We'll make sure to teach them our agenda!"

Mom: "But we have done nothing wrong! We only wanted our children to learn to love life according to God's word..."

Police: "Enough, the State shall decide what is good for your kids!!!"

Dad: "But, but... they are our children, you can't take them away from us.

Police: "YES WE CAN, YES WE CAN!!!!

:D funny way to see it! Well written! ^^ Yes we can!

On one hand I think it's true... it's not ok for a gouvernment to take completely take care of the children.

But on the other hand these things went through my mind and surely through the gouvernments minds too:

#1: if the parents are so strictly religious that they cannot deal with ANY church here and even think school is eveil and try to keep their children away from it, they are restricting their children's lifes. Yes, I think they are keeping their children away from normal socila life. And it is highest priority for a state to secure personla freedom of everybody. In my opinion the personal freedom and wellbeing of every little child and every single person, no matter wher he comes from stands highly over religious freedom!!

I mean, some "religions" allow their followers to have many wifes, to kill little animals by letting then suffer, to beat their children whenever they think it's a good idea to do so and some so called religions even do rape!

Of course you can say now: "but not every religion which doesn't belong to a church is that way." Of course but where do we begin and where can we stop?

I don't htink homeschooling is a bad thing, But keeping them at home because the rest of the world is evil and only this family and this special believe is perfect seems to be kind of hurting their childrens's rights!

#2: One can be absolutely nice, loving and caring persons without that kind of strict believe and even when one attends a normal public school! :D

*climbing up on soapbox*

Wow......many emotional responses here. I think many individuals have difficulty in accepting the fact that there are alternatives to every regulatory "requirement".

It is a very German trait to see issues with "blinders on" and follow the beat of the current drum. We have seen the results of this marching in the past, and it is scary at times.

That said, we seem to have become complacent and acclimated to the ever-increasing infringment of government into our private sphere. The argument that children must have a good education in order to assume a "load-bearing" role/place in our commercialized society may hold some weight (if life is only about making money and paying taxes), but is secondary to the responsibility of a parent to raise a child.

Government should only involve itself in child-rearing when the efforts of the parent(s) either neglect or harm their children....not to enforce a so-called "religious paradignm" with regards to state mandated enducation.

If a family has a comprehensive plan/structure and is able to present a program of study (validated) which meets and/or exceeds current public school curriculums...then what is the real issue?

I think Baynik paints a realistic picture of what is actually happening in a "Western" society....this picture is frightening.

While I may not agree that this is worhty of asylum, it is certainly worthy of lengthy debate and discussion. To paraphrase Martin Niemoller...'when they came for the children, I said nothing; I was of course, no child'.

*climbing down from soapbox...shaking head*

Dasheight is totally correct-- if you're referring to the US, where education is extremely poor in most public schools.

So, it is completely ironic they would run to the US to get a reasonable education. But at the same time, you can't blame them for not being able to afford the school of their choice, and frankly, we should all have such dedicated parents. I also don't see anything against entrusting a childs education to their parents, assuming their capable.

And plus they'll fit in ALOT better in Nashville! Let 'em go-- Far as I'm concerned, it's exactly the (opposite) reason I left the US. There is nothing wrong with moving somewhere that better suits your lifestyle and ideals.

In Germany, from 12 on you have the right to not be teached any religion against your will.

That includes school and parents. Your parents do not have the right to forcefully

teach you religion or put you into a religious school against your will.

At 10 years old the child has to be heard which religion it would like to be teached.

This is important due to the religious ed in schools, but also sunday school of baptists etc.

And quite often the children act contrary to their parents! In my school it even happened that some guy switched from catholic to protestant class, lol.

At age 14 you're completely "Religionsmündig" by law. It means you could step out of any chruch and the parents cannot do anything about it.

But non of those laws interferes with mandatory school.

They are not in Nashville, they are in Morristown. Quite a difference.

I don't know whether it's true for all private religious schools, but the majortiy of them are financed to a great extend (more than 95%) by the state and are free of charge to the parents.

They went to the wrong schools in Texas, my public school was great and I have several friends who went to great ones. Far better than the home school misery I suffered in 7th and 8th grade. Of course, there are plenty of metal detector at the entrance districts too.

If you are living in a hood district and can't afford private schools, then sometimes home schooling is the only alternative available. But it should be the last one taken.

My husband sold his old Blackberry via Craigslist to a guy from NYC who decided his kids were not going to have the best educational and social opportunities there. (Also, he was with a bad crowd himself and wanted to change.) His wife went to the public library and looked up where the best public schools in America are, and came up with the Twin Cities suburb where we currently live. He drove out here himself and slept in his car a few days until he found a job as a maintenance worker in a local hotel, then he moved his family out. He's been here for two years now.

Amazing story, I thought. I'm rooting for him.

There's already another thread about this family; I stated there that the family didn't have to move to the States to homeschool their kids. They could have stayed in Europe, where they have a perfect right to live.

The refusal to let these people homeschool their children according to what they think are their religious believes is in line with German court decisions not to let Muslim girls to be permanently excused from sports/swimming in school etc.

I am well aware that the defintion of religious freedom in the US and for what historicla reasons.... but I believe to "force" schooling on all children is the right of the governement because it is for the better good of the children - even if it is sometimes against the wish of the parents. The did indeed not have to take some religion classes at school at all but would have had to "suffer" thru biology classes which deal with evolution theory instead of creationism and also offer some basic sexuality info etc. and that is something this society finds correct and a base of its culture etc.

?

cinzia, although it's correct that the family could have moved to a country within the EU that does permit homeschooling, what are the chances that the parents could support their kids in a country where they don't speak the language? Basically nil. Furthermore, they would almost certainly not be eligible for whatever version of Hartz IV may be available there since they aren't citizens (nor should they be under these circumstances). However, assuming the parents speak English, then they could move to the UK or Ireland and work there. Suggesting that they move to the Czech Republic isn't realistic.

The broader point, though, is that homeschooling is a privilege, not a right, even where it is legal.

I think we all understand why Germany does not permit homeschooling, and it is, IMHO, an appropriate policy for this country.

I am amazed that people want to homeschool. Those are some dedicated parents - I used to dream of the day that yellow bus would come and grant me a few hours of peace in the day!

Really, I think "normal" school is best - society is full of different beliefs and different people, you can't isolate your children their whole lives from real society. Nor should you. I can see where maybe you can do an adequate job at a young age in educating your child, but I think you are cheating them out of good education when they get to higher level subjects. Most people aren't experts in all subjects, if anyone is. And again, I think the social aspect of school is just as important as the educational aspect...

@cheerios:And, your husband was not wrong. Until relatively recently, the majority of christians had no idea jesus was son of god - they thought he was normal man. The gnostics, coptics, cathars and a whole host of other christians were quite happy with the concept. Unfortunately, most of these guys were forcebly converted by islam or catholicism such as when the pope slaughtered a million cathars and the rest decided not to push the issue.

Religious schooling, home or public, tends to bend little facts like these which I believe is a very good reason for banning it for the sake of the children.

Totally agree. The question in my mind is whether the parents have the right to do whatever they want with their children, and I think sequestering them away and filling their mind with useless junk like religion at the expense of a education in useful or topical things should be on the list of things they should not be able to do.

Didn't a TTer (Steven192) beat the Local to the punch with this story (and now we have two threads):

US grants Germans political asylum: Religion trumps good sense?

The state should not dictate to parents how there children are eductaed UNLESS those children are unable to pass some form of standardized testing. For all of the bluster in Europe over how backwards The U.S. is concerning religion they need only look to Germany to see a truly backward nation when it comes to such issues, a nation where the Chruch dictates to businesses when they must open and close and where the power of the state is used to collect tithes, in the form of taxes, for the Church. The truth of the matter is that all of mankind is trapped in a state of perpetual misery and ignorance due to organized religion and this family is no better or worse than the rest of us.

As far as sending your kids to church schools scroll down to the story about a sex scandal at a Catholic school here in Germany. Parents who have exposed their kids to that are the ones who should be facing fines and jail time.

great. more baby making, god addicted people in america.

My wife and I used to homeschool in the UK.Many homeschooled children actually end up getting higher marks in National exams than those taught in schools.Also our children used to interact with other children in the street,swimming baths and during Church activities.

What I cannot understnad in this story is why go to the USA?Austria,another German speaking country not many kilometres away from where they lived,allows homeschooling.If they didn't have money to pay more fines,where did they get the money to go to the USA?Austria would have been cheaper and easier to have moved to.What is the ulterior motive of their move to the USA?

1- This is not about religion or home schooling per se; it's about whether or not an issue at this level is sufficient to grant political asylum;

2- A discussion of what parents "should" do regarding education for their children is a separate issue, and one that is constantly discussed across the 50 US states and in many of the thousands and thousands of individual school districts - the bottom line for the US has generally been to favor a parent's right to raise their own children how they choose -- that is the default, and someone representing a particular child, (e.g., a local district attorney or a services agency acting on the child's behalf), must prove that the way chosen by the parents is harmful to the child to override that presumption, (e.g., in the cases of faith healing vs. obtaining medicine).

3- Americans understand quite a bit about German society, or perhaps German culture - I find this a particularly unthoughtful quote from an earlier post: "They (Americans) won't understand the importance to the Germans of a cohesive society minimising the possibility of maintained parallel societies"; or the one above about it being okay to "force" schooling on children by the government -- behind these words, many see the specter of row after row after row of good little Bundeskinder being blithely brainwashed in the "values" of the State -- many see the ghosts of millions of Deutsche Jugend who were indoctrinated in a very "cohesive society"...

4- The possible effects of this ruling -- will millions now "flee" to the US to homeschool their kids?! -- will asylum policies in the U.S. now be "abused" by those who have similar single issues with the laws of their home country?! -- have NO bearing on whether or not this is the right and proper ruling.

Thank you.

The issue has less to do with homeschooling and more to do with the idea that In Germany the state is paramount, whatever parents think. That, rightly or wrongly, includes education.

Homeschooling is forbidden in Germany because the state wants all children to understand (among ther things) that the state is paramount in all aspects of German society. The parents of these children reject this notion. In wanting to homeschool their children, they are defying the state, which in Germany, is not tolerated. THAT is why the family moved to the US.

I have no time for fundamentalists of any religion (I am an atheist) but I sympathise with the parents in this respect, even though I suspect that their kids will get a fundamentalist (religious) education.

The German state must learn that it must not treat its citizens as children, but I doubt it will. Germany still has a lot to learn about democracy. Why else are referenda banned here?

Just realized this gets posted on the local....

I give it 6 months, a year tops. They will be begging to be let back in to Germany. They have no idea what they are doing.

My point was that there are countries in the EU, where they have a perfect right to live, and where they could homeschool their kids. Whether or not they speak the language there should not be of much concern to US authorities, in my opinion. They don't need to claim political asylum in the US, because they have plenty of other options for places to live.

Weren't you taught at school that your Conservative Christian nutjobs were mixed in with the rest of the huddled masses Europe was only too glad to get rid of a couple of centuries ago?

Except that maybe the judge isn't uninformed but rather agenda driven or politically motivated (gasp), I think Mark Young summed it up just about right in his weekly letter.

"Besides, if uninformed US judges are willing to give homeschoolers political asylum, then why not Germany's Scientologists, who also claim to be persecuted? Or for that matter, what about China's oppressed Christians and its sizable Muslim Uighur minority? And what about the desperate Burmese man who called me this week?

"If Germany is going to deport him and his family back to a refugee camp in Bangladesh, maybe there's room for them in Tennessee too."

Good luck with a white Southern judge to the Muslims in Switzerland who've lost their minarets, & those in France who will soon be without their burkhas.

I welcome this family with open arms. I would like to offer Germany a swap. Would Germany please take our liberals in exchange for their Christians? It's a great deal. Germany could have the Hollywood crowd and the US will get some better people in exchange.

Good point Cinzia. I think that this is propbably a political stunt.

I haven't seen the judge's written decision, but the point of law that seems to be at question here is apparently whether or not the family was being persecuted on the basis of religion. I'll hazard a guess that US asylum law hasn't caught up with the EU's Freedom of Movement, so what the judge probably had to consider is whether or not they would face persecution in their home country, thus he could not freelance and say that they should have gone to another EU country rather than ruling on the issue of whether of not they faced persecution in Germany on the basis of religion.

I don't think they were being persecuted on religious grounds, but that's my layman's opinion.

As I stated over on the first thread on this very topic, the judge seems a little weak on logic. I doubt he even knows there is such a thing as freedom of movement in the EU. Obviously, the family's lawyer neglected to clue him in. Plus, he did also state that educating one's children as one chooses is a "basic human right."

If the US were faced with the same large numbers of Muslims as Germany and other European countries are, and those Muslims started establishing home schools, I can guarantee you that home schooling in the US would get the kibosh.

I agree with him.

I've got a book for you to read... hell, if you want, I'll send it to you. A real eye opener.

Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling

Written by a multiple award winning NYC public school teacher.

cinzia, the broader point is that the family should not have come to the US in the first place; however, you seem to want the judge base his entire ruling in accordance with your opinion when the issue you bring up apparently is not even supposed to be considered as part of the application for asylum.

One related danger in allowing or requiring a judge to rule on something other than the actual merits of the application for asylum on the issue of protected grounds is that most asylum seekers "could go somewhere else", e.g., Burmese to Australia or Iranians to the EU. However, that's not how it works. You might say that the examples I gave are non-EU, which is true, but the (obviously extremely rare) EU applicant for asylum also has a right to due process and equal protection.

Oh but it is about religion, and politics. One and the same really. Its about "The Home School Legal Defense Association" using these people as pawns to advance their conservative political and religious agenda. These are not mainsteam Homeschoolers. Their goal is to indoctrinate not educate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_School_Legal_Defense_Association

http://www.hslda.org/about/mission.asp

Kinda weird since Article 26 of the Declaration of Human Rights says that elementary education shall be compulsory....

"Elementary education shall be compulsory.

Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children."



Yes, it is compulsory that the children shall be educated. Whether the education is by the parents, by a church or by the government... is not clearly stated.

Compulsory public education has not been around long in the USA; a bit over 100 years, if memory serves. And there were LOTS of protests. Thomas Edison was educated at home, by his mother (as he was having trouble at public school -- too bright).

"teached" hurts..

Ah yes, of course...it's those pesky Holt followers that take issue with Article 26.

wait...sorry...did the two threads get merged finally? I can't find the other.

Edit...oops, found it. Can they not be merged?

California has many secular homeschooling families. Why? Because our schools went from being top in the nation to the bottom, in about a generation.

I do not homeschool, but I have read a lot about it. I was still supposed to be in Germany right now, homeschooling my kid (since school starts younger here). Glad that I found a great private school in CA...

Anyone want to buy any homeschooling books? I've got tons.

No thanks, have them all myself. I did notice in the video interview with the Romeikes that they use Saxon Math. Good choice.

Many people who rightfully should be granted asylum in Germany are being asked to leave the country in many cases.

Hopefully this would teach the racist to have some SYMPATHY for Human Rights.

Is homeschooling a religious belief? How would following the laws of Germany and sending the kiddies to regular school, interfere in any way with the religious education of their children at home?

Sorry, but this is a bunch of baloney. I have seen some (and that is enough) home-schooled children and they can barely spell, let alone think for themselves. Sure, there are (some) very dedicated parents that give their children outstanding educations, however, that is not the norm. Most of these parents barely finished high school and they think they can do a better job that someone with a PhD or Masters in their particular field? Even a BA is better.

As most can suspect, with lazy parents, Johnny spends his day playing video games and that's about it. Mom does not have to worry about buying books or clothes for school. She does not have to shuttle him to school or buy Suzie a prom dress. The advantage is all on the parents side and I find that most of the kids get the short-end of the stick.

I agree with the law, school should be mandatory and if the parents want to "educate" their children in their religion, they have the rest of the day, night and weekends to do it. And they can always suppliment a child's education, if they feel their school is lacking, with tutors or trips to the library.

OK, halfway off topic, I apologize.While there is a correlation between the amount of money spent on each pupil and the rate of achievement, there is nothing to show a causation from less money being spent resulting in lower achievement. In fact you can find the opposite:

Iowa Department of Ed. <--A study examining the relationship between test scores and per pupil expenditures. Why would you suppose that because a family chooses to homeschool for religious reasons, they are neglecting the three R's? I have known many families who homeschooled for religious reasons whose children could put their publicly schooled peers to shame in all subjects.I won't touch the part where you claim to know the goals of these people, but as far as being used as pawns....yes I agree. But are they not getting from HSLDA what they need too? Is this not a win-win for both parties?

No, homeschooling is not a religious belief, but I assume that was a rhetorical question."Not the norm" in your experience. However, there are several studies to show that in the US homeschooled children do as well or outperform their peers on standardized tests.

Achievement and Demographics of Home School Students

From Wikipedia :Well, maybe they can...

Some Observations and Perspectives on Home Education by Sam B Peavey, EdD. (who says about himself, "I am not a promoter of home schooling per se. I am a promoter of free choice among educational alternatives.")Wish I could have that $600-$1000/yr that I spent on textbooks and materials back. Would also be nice to have the money back for all the long trips into the city for extracurricular activities. I also doubt my homeschooled daughter is ever going to wear that prom dress again.

Technically, that's a state issue, not a nationwide federal issue.

And since the family was from BW there's the BW constitution... Participation in religious education and religious celebrations is left to the will of the legal guardian (Art 18). That's completely independent of age, until you turn 18 (21 till the 70s).

Of course there's also still in the same thing: The youth is to be brought up in reverance for god, in the spirit of Christian grace of charity, towards fraternalism of all mankind and love of peace, to love of nation and country, to occupational and social conservation and to a liberal democratic ethos. Responsible for nurturing in their respective areas are the parents, state, religious communities, municipalities and youth organizations. (Art 12)

I do not doubt for one second that the National Home Education Research Institute would find that homeschooling is sterling, seeing as they have a financial stake in the findings. If there is no homeschooling, they are out of business. This was taken straight from their website:



NHERI, a 501(c)(3) non-profit research and educational organization, also makes available for public purchase many print, audio, and video productions ranging from basic bottom-line fact sheets about homeschooling to more technically sophisticated academic reports.

I did not say that a quality education could not be gotten by home schooled children. What I said was that not every homeschooled child has the advantage of dedicated parents. And the most important point is that parents do not have to "answer" to anyone regarding the quality of the education the child receives. They are free to do as much or as little as they feel like. There must be some accountability and right now, there just isn't.

That's not quite true. It varies a lot from state to state.

Parents have the rights to educate and raise their children as they believe is correct and right - so long as they do not abuse or neglect their children (not providing basic education would fall under neglect in modern western society). This is a fundamental right. It is basic and required.

Parents can partner with the state, or with religious or private institutions in educating or even raising children, but the responsibility and rights are with the parents.

Of course the socialist, by whatever name, have long seen the power available if they could get parents to ignore their rights and hand over their children to the state.

Here I want to quote a recent article from Dr. Samuel L. Blumenfeld. "The public schools were taken over in the early 20th century by a cabal of progressive educators whose goal it was to use the schools as a means of turning American children into little socialists who would then bring about a socialist society. The plan for all of this was outlined by John Dewey" ..."Thus American children are at risk in four ways in the public schools: academically, spiritually, morally, and physically.'

American home schoolers, and their are about 3 million presently, consistently and significantly, academically out perform their government, private, and parochial school peers. Homeschoolers, generally in my experience, are more wholesome, confident, morally straight, well adjusted, and less conflicted than their peers. People can spot homeschoolers is the stores by their being more calm, better behaved, and respectful.

Homeschool families are on average larger than other families, by I believe a factor of about two (twice as many kids on average).

The German government it seems is afraid of the positive strength that German families can produce if their children can forego the indoctrination and manipulation centers.

It is wonderful for us Americans to receive German families that are dedicated to focusing on their children and that love the Lord.

As someone always distrustful of formalised authority (be it the American or German political system), I am uncomfortable with anybody being forced to do anything. I think, it generally works better to have incentives in place.

That being said, I'm still glad that I live in a country (Germany) that recognizes the basic right of a child to be granted a normal education in line with current scientific theory, ethical norms, and historical fact.

Homeschool can be great, but it can also be a nightmare for the child. I know plenty of children that had either experience with homeschool. The problem is essentially that most people that do homeschool have never studied teaching, psychology, etc... meaning that the quality of the education of the child in all fields can never be assured (as it can in Germany).

'On average', children may perform better on such tests as the SATs, but standardized tests such as these aren't a very good measure of anything except rare word memorization. I'd like to see how these kids score on the PISA tests, I would also like to see a family-wise comparison (e.g. single-parent homeschool compared with single-parent public), I'm willing to bet that once family situations are corrected for you'll see that homeschoolers, on average perform worse than public schoolers with comparable family situations.

P.s. why are most of 'The Local' crowd foxnews fanboys (insult)?

I find it interesting that people automatically think that a state education is the best possible education. From my personal experience, I found home schooling far more effective than being taught by a cynical, burnt-out professional in a class room of 20 other kids.

I was home schooled until I was 13 and enjoyed every minute of it. Then I thought I was missing out on a real education so I went to an Irish state school and got the shock of my life when I realised how rubbish it was! Anyway, I cruised through 5 years of Irish secondary school, did better than 95% of the other kids and went on to study law. I really think I had an unfair advantage because of homeschooling. It forces you to think about why you are learning what you are learning, and how you can learn most effectively.

These days, most universities are ranting on about self directed learning. That is really the essence of home schooling! The problem, however, is that home schooling is hijacked by creationists, extremists and other unusual types who make people like me look bad! But if you are interested in giving your child the best possible education and you have the time, money of lifestyle which allows it, home schooling is a smart choice.

I think state ed is a better solution for the time being, I would never say 'best possible'. Burnt out or not, I'd rather have my children taught by someone who knows what their doing.

that being said, some homeschoolers now their stuff, but I agree with Tom Bombadil, it definitely ain't the crowd this family runs with.,

Great reply! Nice to hear from someone who was homeschooled, and went on to higher education (lilplatinum is another).

Here is an example of a good education at home. The authors are a mother/ daughter team... the mother was a teacher who homeschooled her kids, the daughter is now a college professor. They write books on ideal (and non-religious! OMG!) homeschool curricula. I have their books, to supplement my son's education.

Agreed. Interestingly, the graphs shown next to the quote from that wiki page are from the Rudner study (Achievement and Demographics of Home School Students), not the NHERI study. I found the entire peer reviewed Rudner study here.

While the study was conceived of by Michael Farris of HSLDA and it was he who secured Rudner to carry it out, I have no reason to believe the study is not objective. The note at the bottom of the study reads: I know that is not what you said. I can go back and re-read it. Perhaps it would help if I explain what I inferred from this quote and why I felt compelled to respond with some evidence to the contrary.

I took your words to mean that you have had limited experience with homeschooled children/families and it was not positive. Despite this, you still believe that there are a few families dedicated enough to the education of their children that the result is successful BUT the latter situation is far less frequent. Again, this is how I interpreted your statements.

As to my response, I wanted to show that your experience does not represent the whole picture of homeschooling, especially since I am intimate with the subject, having had two children in public school and one homeschooled. I spent some 15 years interacting almost daily with many other homeschooling families both religious and non-religious, wealthy and er...not so wealthy, and my experience is much closer to what is shown in the Rudner study. I did know about two or three situations where a child was pulled from public school to be homeschooled, one in particular that fit your description to a tee. (kid ended up on the couch in front of the TV. Incidentally, the mother did not have a HS degree and the family was of very limited means.As Cinzia pointed out that is not true. Here (I know I know, that pesky HSLDA, but it is the easiest look at the requirements) is a nifty little map that shows how much regulation each state requires. I homeschooled in TN (I notice you are also from TN). I had to register the student, but because of the state option/method I chose, I was not required to have my child take standardized tests, however, I, along with almost all others I knew in my position, had my child take the standardized tests in line with the public schools.

NOW, when is that written ruling from Judge Burman appear!!!???

For all I know about the case, the question isn't whether the children have a sufficient education in the sense of acquiring knowledge. They test pretty well in comparison to children attending a state school.

Neither do the parents complain that their children aren't learning enough in school. I mean, it isn't difficult to find a school in Germany which finishes at 13:00. There is plenty of time left in the afternoon and in the weekends to teach the children everything the parents think isn't covered sufficiently in the morning.

What the parents complain about is that their children get taught and exposed to the wrong things, i.e. things which they don't consider acceptable within their religious system of values. Since this set of values differs strongly from what even the conservative, religious part of Germans considers mainstream, there isn't a school which fits their requirements.

The state on the other hand considers it part of the education to expose children to different opinions and to have them interact with other children. To be fair, the parents point out that their children are no completely isolated but participate in sport clubs etc. where they aren't considered socially incompetent.

In my opinion, the whole argument comes down to twopossibly conflicting principles. The right of the parents to determine the education and what's good for their children and the right and duty of the state to step in if parents act irresponsible for the welfare of their children. Obviously parents are allowed to raise their children according to their own values, thus promoting them over other sets of values. On the other hand, when a child grows up, it ultimately will have to make its own decisions, but how can it do so if the values of the parents were the only ones it was exposed to? When does it start to negatively affect a child if you take options away from him by deliberatedly not exposing him to mainstream experiences and ideas?

From my admittedly limited knowledge of the case, I haven't got a lot of sympathies for how both the state and the parents have handled the case. Both sides seem to be rather interested in making a point than in what's best for the children.

Are you referring to the Romeikes in particular, or any German homeschoolers? The Romeikes complaints can be seen here. They include, under the main heading of "persecution", threats, physical harm, intimidating and belittling, and fines. In addition, in a TV interview I saw with them, the parents said that when the school taught religion, it belittled their own.That's a good question. I know of oh, so many Catholic kids I met in college who went to Catholic schools and were indoctrinated at home and had absolutely no problem making a decision to either drop religion altogether or switch. But I have no idea how many others held on to their views because of lack of decision making ability that stemmed from threats of eternal damnation or whatever. I guess it might come down to a personality trait. Guess we'll never know.

It is objective but not very meaningful because it doesn't control for social factors, which means you can't really draw any solid conclusions about the quality of the education. Home schoolers are for the most part relatively wealthy, well educated, white, married couples who (by definition) take a very active role in their kids' education. Chances are, if you put these home schooled kids into a regular school, they'd still perform above average.

But even if they did control for social factors, the average levels of achievement tell you very little about what a small minority of whackjobs teach their kids, because without significant state involvement, there's no way to guarantee a minimum standard. Rudner for example looked at some 11,000 home-schooled children. If 100 of those are illiterate, think the Earth is 5000 years old and can't count to 10, it wouldn't have a dramatic effect on the average score, but you'd still be looking at 100 cases of child abuse.

This reminds me of the Freakonomics chapter about education (or parenting..or something). The authors said something like...The test scores of children correlate more strongly with WHO the parents are, rather than WHAT they do.

I need to re-read that book.

My basic argument is that children, though the responsibility of the parents, are human beings in their own right. Children cannot protect their rights, so it is society's responsibility to make sure they are protected, even from their parents sometimes.

I do not have a quarrel with great, intelligent, dedicated parents educating their children at home and agree that it can far exceed public education under the right circumstances. However, religious sects can use the opportunity to seclude their children, lazy parents can use the opportunity to do nothing and these children fall into the cracks.

I wonder too, how parents make up for team sports, social interactions and cultural diversity, clubs for drama or debate, if the child is limited to the kitchen table. I know that some have camps and weekly meetings, but it is not the same. Parents are the best qualified to teach their children right from wrong, but are they qualified to teach Physics or French? Or how to deal with the school bully, if a child never encounters one? I fear for the children that have parents whose views don't go beyond their front door.

I am advocating that if parents want to educate their children at home, then they should pass some requirements that they are qualified to do so and all the children should be required to pass a standard test for competency, administered nation-wide, if they are home-schooled. They should also have to prove that their children have had the opportunity to study languages or participate in sports.

So yes, I am against it, as the system is now, just for the handful I met that were robbed of a decent education. I will say, however, that the home-schooled children I saw were very good at cleaning the house while mom was at work.

what about the social integration? i can only assume that they will be speaking german at home. they are in america, as they move on in life in the states they will have to be fluent in english (or spanish) and have some sort of social abilities. like everything else, home schooling is what you make of it...

@Erised: Absolutely!! You are sooo right in my opinion!

A lot of people are discussing about the partents, that the parent's rights to homeschool their chrildren was taken away, that the parent's religious feelings were touched and so on... but what about the children? I think it's so so so important to secure their rights, feelings and personal welfare.

Nah. they are in Morristown, they don't speak English there. They speak hillbilly. And social skills needed in that town are...well...going to church and eating at the Golden Corral. Oh yeah, there is a bowling alley.

I'm referring to the Romeikes in particular.

I like how the court style of disregarding the idea that a wife doesn't take the name of the husband: Hannelore Funk, ("Mrs. Romeike"). Sounds like the court of Stepford. If that had been done by a German court, I'm sure it'd turn up under "belittlement" :-)

Anyway, the whole persecution is what also hapens if you don't pay a parking fine. "Threats" and "Intimidating" that there will be consequences if you don't pay. "Belittlement" that they don't really care if paying parking fines is against your convictions. "Physical harm" that a court agent and if neccesary the police will come to your house and physically take the money or take you to prison. Totally ridiculous.I went to a Catholic school, although I'm a Protestant by church affiliation and an agnostic by conviction. During the time we had probably hundreds of discussions between us about religion. We found out that many of our convictions or doubts were the same, but that we differed in our decision in what we believed. I know people who came out of the school as agnostics, others as strict Catholics and yet others as something in between. I also learned to respect all choices. And I think that we all benefitted from having had these discussion with people who had a different point of view, no matter what we believed in.

So I don't mind someone raising their children in a religious way. I don't mind if the children turn out to be religious. But I have my problems if a parent decides to take away from them the possibility to discuss their conviction with another child who has a different point of view. They seem to want to avoid the possibility that the child comes out of such discussions with new ideas which weren't approved by the parents.

hey, the golden corral is not too shabby if you're into the buffet thing (and you're willing to go toe to toe with someone on a "fixed income" for the last piece of carrot cake).

Let me cut this down a bit.

Germany is very cautious about what children learn because we've seen what happens when they aren't raised with balance in their education (Hitler Youth ring a bell?). It damned well *is* the responsibility of the state to make sure that it's future citizens are given an unbiased, multifaceted education, and it is *not* the right of parents to prevent that. Your kids need to learn language, science, mathematics, customs, and common cultural heritages, and they need to understand how these things related in daily life. That is simple fact.

Additionally, children have freedom of religion in Germany at a very young age and you do not have the right to indoctrinate another human being, even your own child, with your own personal religious beliefs. That is something they need to choose for themselves when they are capable of reasoning and understanding. Public school in Germany is one place out of many where this reasoned discussion is chosen to take place.

Now, if you don't like any of this, then that's fine. Don't live here. But more importantly, I am reading all this crap above how this is socialism and that's communism and etc etc. Listen; we like social democracy. That doesn't make us a communist dictatorship, or whatever other flights of fancy you americans might have in your head. We CHOSE this government, we PASSED these laws. We're a democracy and this *is* how we want it. If you don't like that, take a flying hike. We don't care. We're not coming to D.C. to tell you what to do, so we bloody well expect you to respect how we want things in our own country, too. The arrogance you people sometimes show is absolutely staggering. You don't have even the slightest understanding of why these things are the way they are, and yet you presume to lecture us on the topic. GO HOME. And enjoy your new baker's half dozen of fundamentalist lunatics; we don't want'em.

To Aachaen,

To everyone else,

The Rudner study sponsored by the rightest homeschool legal fund thingy is an AWEFUL example of statistics. The test a few correlations and do a few F-tests (none of which have anything to do with raw or corrected achievement differences between homeschool and public school). The study can make no claim with regards the descriptive differences between the groups! The could have at the very least don a two sample T-test. Idiots, I would severly doubt any research coming out of that journal, but the board of peers are all with the crazy rightest group.

Good riddence to bad rubbish,

It should be acknowledged that Germany is the only country in the EU that does not allow its citizens to home school their children. It would be a simple thing to establish some set standards and overseeing administration for parents who wish to home school their children. An inferior education is a form of child abuse, but there must be a line drawn and some room allowed for parents to instruct their children in key areas as they prefer. These issues and standards must take into account the most common reasons why people choose to home school, so that the laws would be realistic.

Home schooling in America: As an almost 60 year old American I recall that virtually no one home schooled when I was a child. The Protestants often complained about the Catholics having their own schools, in a "Who do they think they are?" type of way. The schools were the bastions of not only education but of moral teaching and the enculturation of the nation's future generation.

The move to home schooling came about due to several changes in American society in a short period, 60's-70's. (1) The removal of prayer and Bible reading from the schools; (2) The integration of African American students into white schools by busing, which meant the virtual disappearance of the neighborhood school; (3) The general down-grading of the quality of teachers; (4) the rise of illegal drugs in America and gang-related violence; (5) A growing home schooling movement which preached a set of values that focused on the importance of the family rather than the importance of the nation; (6) A continual downgrade of the moral fabric of society that left next generation of parents distrustful of authority figures and desired to maintain control over their children; (7) The improved curriculum of home schooling programs, and the improved network of support for home schooling families and children.

American culture does favor the individual over society in many areas, but not in all areas. Germans tend to take a stronger view of the unity of German society and culture than do Americans.

The point can be argued both ways. The strength of any culture or nation must rest upon the shared cultural values of its people, and if these are not gained in schools, then when and where can they be gained? Yet should a government have the right to remove children from a home when the parents wish to responsibly educate them at home?

I believe the proper response, and one that will inevitably come to Germany, I believe, is for there to be offered another system to parents who wish to home school, and that there would be monitoring to insure that the children are receiving a proper education.

Interesting point........ moving to Morristown might be considered child abuse. I went to a wedding rehersal dinner at the Golden Corral.... LOL the bridesmaids.... buffet.... jello on the floor...... thanks alot for the flashback

Rehersal dinner at Golden Corral? Was the reception at wall mart?

I went to Golden Corral once, high as a kite, and it still tasted like crap... which says a lot..

It's federal law:

My link

I think in that case wiki will be reliable enough as a source.

Anyway in NRW the parents have no saying in your religious classes from 14 on. You can leave, switch whatever.

At least in my school it was practised.

It was where he took her to eat on their first date. They met when they were 15 and that was all he could afford on his pitiful allowance. Happy to say that they just celebrated their 15th wedding anniversary. And they sent their son to a private school.

What if these parents were pulling there kids out of school because they didn't think their children learned the Stalinist values that they wanted for them? I see no difference, except maybe that Stalinism has more of a basis in reality than what these folks are on about.

Given the context of the law in Germany, I think the most important question is, 'would taking the kids away from their parents help them?' and the answer is a simple 'yes'. Religion is child abuse (not a metaphor), and any education that inculcates uni-dimensional religious moralism on the grounds of heaven-hell sorts of sticks and carrots is even more so. Children with such an upbinging are emotionally handicapped, irrational, and lucky to get out with any semblance of character or ethics intact, let alone any critical thinking skills.

I reitirate, the study so many of you are citing, has absolutely no value with regards comparison of homeschool vs. public school. The statistical tests used were never employed to test the basic descriptive statistics, they just reported two averages and didn't say anything about the variance or distribution (which I'm betting is way higher in the homeschool group and skewed to the left overall, with more students under achieving than in public schools). How bout we just let that die than.

Your point is taken however, remember that the Romeike family has been up against the system for at least two years. Engaging with the State in non-violent, legal terms for at least two years. I think that counts as participating in society even if its an unusual way of participating, don't you? If it's not participating then I suppose that thousands upon thousands of Germans with legal insurance solely to sue their neighbours about the height of the hedge would also have to be moved into the social doggie box.The Romeike family was certainly not trying to bomb society. And in those two years a significant complaint of the family has been about the school environment, not just the classroom content. We could have asked them to move to another village if they didn't like the manners of the local kids so much, but who was going to bear the costs of that? They could have moved to Britain, but again, who was going to bear the costs of that? I think you would concede that having to move is a rather different concept to 'choosing' to move. Indeed, let it be called asylum; after all, asylum simply means shelter from danger or hardship. Then those that remain, let us ask carefully whether their loss was an unavoidable and acceptable cost.

I have the sneaky feeling that the fabric of British nationhood is no less tight than the German one, despite Britain allowing homeschooling among the range of educational possibilities. One of Britain's youth challenges is yobbish behaviour, ironically succoured in schools because of policies that undermine the ability of class teachers to discipline, and busy, less stern parents. Nothing to do with homeschooling as such.Dear, dear me. Good luck with your bachelor's degree. I hope it hones your analysis better than your Abitur did.

First, the family concerned happened to be a family of Christians. That is the one aspect of their lives that has been repeatedly held up against them. The detail of their objection to public schooling is that on the one hand they felt that the school propounded an anti-Christian perspective, and on the other hand they also felt that ill-discipline was rife in schools, and moreover, that there was little will change that situation. In your comment and indeed all that I have read here, no one has called them out on that one. No one. Rightly or wrongly, Too many of Germany's school playgrounds are considered unwholesome for young minds. And by the way, this is not the narrow judgement of conservative Christian parents. A year or two ago I remember an American lady in Germany writing here, objecting to her kids receiving religious instruction but equally appalled by what she overheard kids telling one another at Kintergarten. Kindergarten folks!

Okay, my next point: your religious studies in Abitur were clearly lacking in depth. Why? Well, for one thing I also had Religion as a subject in school -- I wasn't home-schooled -- and what a load of confusion that was, so I kind of understand you. What passes for Religion in high school is usually more like religious philosophy with the thoughts of aetheist philosphers thrown in for 'balance'. There are surely some things that some people believe in that are philosophies (z.B. New Age, Buddhism), but philosophy is not to be confused with faith. The two are quite distinct. More to the point, your Religion class ought to have not simply given you a menu of religious or liturgical opportunities; it should among other things have dealt in depth with the claims of exclusivity of particular faiths. Without understanding Christianity's claim to be the only true faith, you'll struggle to form an intelligent argument for or against the Romeike family. For that matter, incidentally, the same can be said about Judaism. And Islam. And look how little western Europe understands about any of them.

So august an educational system should not know so little. That, my dear Billiby, would be extreme.

Funnily enough ..

Don't you mean the public school did not afford a completely Christian education?

Are they so afraid that their faith will not stand up in their children, that they cannot even tolerate them hearing about other people's beliefs?

I think that Germany has it right, tell them what is out there and let the parents guide in the specifics or maybe let them make up their own minds.

But even if they insisted on a completely "Christian" education, Germany has private schools and these folks were free to send them to one. The tution is low because the government subsidizes them. Christian, Jewish, etc.... These schools also must have qualified teachers, etc..... and the children must prove they have had an adequate education. So just why these people insisted on keeping their children at home is a mystery to me. Millions of kids here in Germany get along just fine in public and private schools. Mom and Dad over reacted to say the least.

You know, I have a relative that SWEARS that the earth is only a few thousand years old and that the dinosaurs were planted by "the devil" and/or his minions to attempt to disprove the existence of god. Good grief......... and this, despite a public education. Seems the church's work did it's job for her parents just fine......

Even if the parents did get them to a private school the kids would still have got exactly the same religious education as at a state school, this is the law in Germany and all schools have to abide by that if they receive any money from the state at all.

So sending their children to one of those schools would have been a complete waste of time and would of course have consigned their souls to hell.

** are we ever going to get the clickable smileys to work on this board***?

That is what I said! LOL The quality of the education should be the same, but the quality of the religion should be better, more specific.

So I was right?? That these people just did not want them to hear anything outside of 7 day creation, including geology??

Those poor kids........

Ah right sorry. I understood your post to mean that they could have sent their kids to a private school to get a " fundie christian only" education.

Which is not possible AFAIK in Germany and a good thing too.

Just as I had said a few posts before, child abuse, that would be the primary difference.

Hey folks, let's try to keep the fun in fundamentalism, shall we?

Seriously, though, I've always found the fundamentalist Christian style to be an inherent contradiction, in that Jesus behaved exactly the opposite the way this family is behaving, seeking to shelter their family from the world, while the Jesus of the new testament sought out the company of the sick, the poor, the disenfranchised, those without wifi.

If we get them, then you have to take Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck back. We'll even throw in Bill O'Reilly for good measure. He's fun to poke with a stick.

Parografik,

I've never seen a contradiction, the most I've seen is moderates with a liberal interpretation of the bible make way for the loonies who tend to keep the exact interpretation from 2000 years ago.

You have to have lived in the US in order to understand how truly ignorant significantly large portions of the population are. Pretending that you have the education and skills of a professional educator is on a par with slicing a tomato and deciding you can now do heart surgery.

Oh, ErnestPayne, how very true your words are!!

As an American having attended American (private) and German (public) schools, I can say that the German education exceeds the American system by far, BY FAR! Comparing the two would simply be a farce. Much has been said, however I do think that many (Americans) who have commented are not aware of how the German education system works. As someone has already mentioned in this thread, that religious institutions are available at no additional costs (this is Germany, afterall) Now, if it was the parents' desire for their children to have an education according more to their religious beliefs, there were other alternatives. School attendance is mandatory so that Germany continues to ensure a high standard of education for all its children.

What I find most amusing in these articles are words such as 'fled', 'persecution', 'refugees', 'asylum'......really? I mean REALLY??

This is utter contempt and irreverence to a refugee seeking asylum because he/she truly is being persecuted and asylum doesnt get granted. Furthermore, there are countries within the EU where home-schooling is 'legal', take Austria for example, right across the border and German is spoken! 'Fleeing' to America really wasnt necessary.

Wonder who will pay their health insurance in America?

ErnestPayne,

Unfortunately, of course, your medical analogy is actually under debate as a sort of reality with regards Christian Scientists and 7th Day Adventists. It's really no wonder the U.S. is becoming a haven to the likes of such people.

Glad I moved to Germany. I'm sure most of the usual ignorant scum who comment on these boards are happy that I've left.

Nope - it's not. It's imperial law. Sorta complicated issue: States could pass laws countering Imperial law between 1945 and 1949, and under Art 125 GG such state laws have the rank of federal law within the territory of their state (wird innerhalb seines Geltungsbereichs Bundesrecht). As these have the rank of federal law themselves, no law passed by federal parliament can break them (unless they change the federal constitution). This mostly ensures that the constitutions of the states - which were written in that period - as well as any laws of the temporarily independent states can not be broken by federal law.

With regard to the particular issue - the age at which a person becomes self-determining in religious matters - a number of states (e.g. Bavaria and Saarland) have set different limits from the original imperial law between 1945 and 1949, with these regulations automatically becoming unbreakable by federal law.

Special Note:

For Baden-Württemberg (which has different limits too as stated), the above issue is even more complicated - since the three states that make up Baden-Württemberg did write such laws in the '45-'49 period, but the current state was only formed by fusion in 1953 with a new constitution. One could argue that the '53 constitution is only a repeat and change to the three parallel previous constitutions, and as such either the '53 version became federal law within Baden-Württemberg, or the three earlier versions have become federal law within the territory of the former states Württemberg-Baden, Südbaden and Württemberg-Hohenzollern respectively.

Funny how this issue makes people claim that the state should be the main educators of children for socialization reasons and that is such a great thing. Then the state turns around and divides kids up in 5th grade letting each one know who is a loser and who isn't. What a great socialization technique that is. And handicapped children should be put in their own little boxes too.

The split is to try and educate us to the appropriate level. We're not all the same. Some will become brilliant theoretical physicists and some will become great builders or mechanics. Different skills. Is the only measure of winner or loser the ability to do a physics or maths test?

rhody, I agree that it seems unfair or wrong to "box" students based upon aptitude; however, as my wife is a German school teacher here in Bayern, I must add this: consider a classroom consisting of 30 seven-year-olds. Four of them have various degrees of mental handicaps. All four require extra attention and support to learn. This happens at the expense of the other 26 kids. Fair?

That's because German school systems think like you do. That only one teacher can teach 30 kids. Integration usually means that there are assistants with the handicapped kids to help them in the classroom. This is the main reason why German kids are so clueless about disabilities. But it's not your wife's fault that Germany is so behind, it is the system that trained her that is to blame.

Let's not forget that many of the decisions on where to place German 10 year olds are frankly wrong. Too often it is based on the parents' social standing and background.

Had an interesting chat with my new friend the German children's therapist. Although in Germany parents must by law send their children to school, the reverse is not true. German public schools can refuse admittance. That means that parents with "problem children" can end up having to search for schooling in another area, sometimes far from where they live. If the child is borderline, meaning the "problems" aren't bad enough for the child to be institutionalised, then the parents can end up in a very precarious legal situation. If they cannot arrange for schooling for any reason, even if it is not their fault, (e.g. lack of funds for moving to another town, or for private/boarding school) then Child Services can end up removing the children from the family and placing them in a foster home or group home.

And what does this provide the parties with (child(children) & parent(s))?

It must make the politicians & gov. bureaucrats happy to be helping in this situation with this solution?

And the state is afforded the privilege of making those life altering decisions with a bunch of 10 year olds? I bet Colin Powell is glad he didn't go to school in Germany because he was apparently a pretty mediocre student(by choice it would appear....lack of interest) until fairly late in college. Sounds like he might have ended up cooking jerk chicken at some Jamaican greasy spoon in Queens instead of being the first African American CJCS and Secretary Of State if the US had a similar system.

I've reversed my position on this. I now think that the German system is great, and should be extended to sending all German kids to learn to be ditch diggers. This'll keep them from polluting the real world in a fashion articulated by Morgenthau.

I don't agree with the German idea of sorting them out in grade 4 but the US system isn't ideal either if you don't have money. I assume Colin Powells parents had the money to pay for him to go to college since as a mediocre student, he wouldn't have had access to scholarships. If they hadn't, he also might have ended up cooking jerk chicken somewhere.

And how many ruin the education of others by being put into a one size fits all system and causing trouble? Often the highly gifted as they are held back and get bored. Good education should be about finding what is appropriate for each child and nurturing that talent. Whatever that talent is.

I do personally feel 10 is too early but the concept of streaming I have no problem with.

Hell, no ... he was on a ROTC scholarship..

That said, Caribbean-Americans have a very positive reputation for hard work, saving and sacrifice.

Actually, many "highly gifted" children in the US are afforded opportunities though such programs as AP classes, honors schools or honors programs within their school, magnet schools and the International Baccalaureate program. These programs are OFFERED as opposed to being imposed.

Sounds like the UK was then? If you came from a well off family you bought your child's education, otherwise you had to hope for a scholarship. These days , as I understand it, they are cutting back on scholarships so basically the well off are off to a head start.

This decade and all without being shot at:

Secretaries of state: Fischer dropped out of Gymnasium and never had any formal graduation. Westerwelle was first in Realschule and only later changed to Gymnasium.

Chancellor: Schröder left school with 15 to start an apprenticeship. He made Abitur in evening school and then studied law.

President: Johannes Rau left school without Abitur and did an apprenticeship in a publishing house.

I'd have to agree that American kids are offered special AP classes-- but from what I can tell the level of education offered, even in AP classes, would just be considered mediocre here in Germany. I don't think you can directly compare the two systems, because there is a completely different standard of what upper level classes should be.

I'm not sure that AP calculus would be considered inferior anywhere. As I understand it, Gymnasium is more like something you do after high school, kind of a "junior college", so comparisons with the US system may be difficult as you said.

If you take the Germans word for it, high school is only equivalent to their hauptschule but I doubt that a kid with hauptschule who moved to the US would get credit for having finished high school.

I think the education system here is too complicated. I have no problem with streaming either but there should be more flexibility. I actually think splitting kids up into classes by ability would be a good idea at any age. It makes the kids lifes easier as well as the teachers. A one-size-fits-all class just means that the teacher has to follow the speed of the mediocre while the gifted get bored and the slow get left behind.

In my high school school district, AP included taking courses at the local university, once you'd gotten past all the school's own AP courses. However, no matter how many AP courses you took, or how many university credits you already had upon graduation, you got the exact same high school degree as the guys who spent most of their time smoking pot behind the Ag barns.

You can't just dismiss all US high school diplomas as representing a less rigorous education than a German Abitur.

Splitting kids up according to ability isn't really the issue per se. But how many kids do you know who are good at ALL subjects, or are bad at ALL of them?

A child may be great at math, and not so good at literature. Or very good in art, and not so terrific with chemistry. THAT is what the German school system completely ignores. Basic human nature isn't taken into consideration.

Germany should consider creating schools where kids can mix and match subjects according to their ability and inclination. And don't tell me it is too hard or too complicated to do. That's the sort of public high school that I attended.

Good point, cinzia. It's also not unusual to find homeschooled kids taking their math and/or science courses at the local community college- a sixteen year old neighbor of mine did exactly that to take Calculus II and III.

The negative comments here astonish me. They are based on so many negative assumptions. I am homeschooling my two children. There seems to be an assumption among these posts that parents who homeschool do not value education.

I have a 4-year degree from a private, selective college on the east coast, and a two-year Post Bacc. teacher certification from a private university. First of all, let's address how teacher certification qualifies anyone for anything. I found it to be tedious, spirit crushing, requiring only lock-step compliance and discouraging of free thinking.

My husband and I read widely; our home is full of books and our lifestyle is dominated by curiosity and the desire to learn. We are Catholic, very religious, and teach evolution. My 7th grade son will take his high school math at science at a nearby community college.

We are not the exception. Many families we know have the same emphasis on success. There are the "fundamentalist" families out there, but they are not the rule. Homeschool parents do not take their children out of public school to limit them, but rather to give them the best education they can.

And please, socialization? The public school kids I see among my friends are absorbed by "screens" (ipods, laptops, nintendos), with no interest in books or creative, outdoor play, and little knowledge of how to behave with civility.

But colleges don't look at the diploma. The look at the transcript and taking the full load of AP classes gets you moved way up in the admissions sort.

Germany is a country that seems to like the Barrier to Entry concept. It isn't just the school system but in other parts of life here too.

School System

The barriers erected here are to create an elitist society where everyone knows their place because the indoctrination starts at an early age. Yes, Hans123 pointed out that there are several high profile examples of people who scaled the walls and made it through. There always are but what is not counted are the ones for whom the walls were too high at a time when they just couldn't make it. God forbid a 4th grader is going through a hard time with perhaps a divorce or death in the family and is sorted out from the rest as not good enough. The problem with streaming in Germany is the way in which is it done. The pressure put on the kids and the physical separation into different buildings and many times different towns is mean spirited. Granted the US system is not perfect but in my New England town we had streaming within the school but it was always possible to improve and make it into the college preparatory classes. We also had common classes like theatre, photography, sports etc that were students were not excluded from because they weren't going to university or were not yet sure. I still have friends from different spectrums and didn't just associate with the elite.

Housing

This is another barrier to entry erected to prevent the masses from owning their own home. Banks, the real estate agent lobby and the tax system all conspire to keep the lower classes out. To buy your own four walls, you often need 20% down payment, the buyer pays commission to the agent, 1% to the notary and then the deed tax, all up front and no financing of those costs. This pretty much insures a meager 40% home ownership rate. Probably just about the same as the rate for entering the Gymnasium. I do agree that not everyone is fit enough to own their own home financially but Germany takes it to the extreme.

Fishing License

Here's another example of making things elitist. Although you don't need a Gymnasium degree to fish, you do need to pay a hefty sum to take a lengthy course and a complicated test to use a fishing pole. This keeps the average joe from taking his kids to the local lake for some catch and release. The whole philosophy of fishing here is not only incorrect in its theory, it is designed to keep fish stocks low so that only the anointed in the fishing clubs are allowed.

The Meister Concept

Granted there are some really well trained trades people in Germany and yes, I want one of these guys to do the important work like installing circuit breakers in my house. But do I need a meister baker? Or a meister ditch digger? This barrier keeps the labor costs for trade work artificially high. I've had some extensive experience working with trades people and I have found that one has to monitor them just as closely as one monitor a non-meister laborer. Just because they have the meister doesn't always mean you are getting what you pay for. But the meister system keeps the numbers low enough to keep the price high.

Handicapped Access

The ultimate barrier to entry and one I have trouble finding a logical reason for. How can any public place not have access for everyone?

I could go on with more examples but this is what I see as the general problem.

You know, i actually don't have a problem with any of the things you're complaining about.

Meister System? Ensures - to some extent, in their field - that the regular worker isn't exploited even more. And at least gives some quality accountability.

Housing? Oh come on, not everyone needs to own their own house. It's a good thing that insanity that was the Eigenheimpauschale was finally stopped, and - economically - it's a damn good thing banks in Germany don't give out 100% loans to everyone.

Handicapped Access? I'm not aware of any public building in Heidelberg - except some schools and parts of the university - that have not implemented measures to that end. They're legally required to, you know?

Fishing License? Unlike in some other countries, the government's property isn't public property.

Schools... now that's more of a philosophical question. Personally, i support the multi-tier systems (not always 3 tiers...) as they're implemented. I'd put the bar a bit higher - 5th or 6th grade, like some states and schools offer - but per se I don't have a problem with the system. Especially when there are post-graduation "upgrade" options like in Baden-Württemberg the Werkrealschulen (Realschule degree for Hauptschüler) or Fachgymnasien (specialized Abitur for Realschüler), or "mixed" options like the joint Hauptschule/Realschule concept currently being trialled.

There are problems in the system of course. The selection for example is far too often dependent on the teacher's personal opinions about a student - and his parents. And, in some states, the choice is left to the parents altogether (yes that's negative to me). I'm not all that comfortable with "catch-all" private schools that hand out an Abitur to anyone with enough money either. Or with schools not having any external performance supervision. That's stuff that needs to be worked on.That's what's done in the Oberstufe. Of course, ever since we got certain rather... conservative politicians in the education ministries, the choice there has in some states dwindled to pretty much "standard curriculum" too.

Kato - you fail to see the points I make regarding home ownership. I even say myself that not everyone should own their own home but do you agree that the barriers are inordinately high? Or are you Makler or a Notar looking to protect your mafia-like business?

Regarding the laws about handicapped access, they are a joke. No one seems to be held accountable here for this and I'll admit I don't know what the law says exactly but a good example is the recent renovation of a school near Ladenburg that *had* ramps and then they took them away during the renovation and now several of the physically handicapped kids who were granted permission (yes, you need to ask permission) to attend their own local school have to go to the overcrowded handicapped school in Ladenburg. It's a disaster because the new handicapped school in Ladenburg isn't ready yet. If you want the details call the director at Ladenburg, he is the one who relayed this information to me. So yes I am aware there are laws here but they don't seem to matter. Another example is the Plankstadt Rathaus - no ramps whatsoever and no plans to build one because you need a meister ramp builder and it's too expensive.

You shouldn't ignore the strong position of people renting instead of owning property. A lot of people prefer not to buy even if they could afford it. Owning property as soon as you can afford it isn't the automatism as it is in the US or the UK.

And honestly, the events of the last years don't convince me that it isn't a good idea to have to put down a substantial down payment.

eh? I think you wanted to post that last comment in the Buying a house / flat thread. Could a mod maybe move it there?

The financial barriers? Nah. I'd say they were too high if banks would be demanding a third down and then several grand per month. But the financi…[/quote]Iirc barrier-free access is actually a pretty hot topic in Plankstadt politically. The Greens have a motion running to get an elevator for the Rathaus i think.

Looks like The Economist has the German school system pegged - spot on.

Excellent article rhody! Pretty much covered everything I've been complaining about for years. Wonder if the article is also available in German? Would love to send a copy to a few German teachers I know, but their English isn't up to it.

Of course, but that wasn't my point. My point is that a high school diploma in the US represents a wide range of achievement. Dismissing a US HS diploma as representing completion of a curriculum less rigorous than the Abitur is sometimes justified, often not.

rhody and others, you have complaints against the German educational system, but do you think that it's so egregious that a German family would be justified in being granted asylum in the US so they can avoid that system? That's the discussion here.

Now that's an interesting thought. I wonder what would happen if every German parent was to apply to the US for asylum at the same time as a sort of protest.