Spread of Islam feared by 3 out of 4 Germans

I fear the spread of flimsy news stories and repetitive surveys into the general public's feelings about Islam.

Spread of Christianity feared by 4/4 Muslims?

I wonder how many of those have been in any single flimsy way effected by a Muslim living in 'their' country.

What exactly do they fear?

maybe it's time to go to church?

"maybe it's time to go to church?"

maybe its time to stop creating 'us and them' environments

When did the Local get bought out by Bild Zeitung? What a stupid sensationalist piece of s***.

I'd like to see the study in detail. It depends on who you ask. 3 out of 4 Germans could very well be 3 Germans (say, 3+ generations) and 1/4 could mean an immigrant with a Islamic background.

Anyway, seems like a blanket statement to me. If you cut the pie a different way, maybe it'll be like 4/5 Christians fear Islam and 4/5 Muslims have no problems. Take the weighted average: bang you get 3/4 fearing Islam. Surveys were conducted in Berlin, with a Muslim community of 9%. The average in total Germany is 5%.

Just thinking out loud. Too much statistics at work today...

Michael: Exactly. Us and them environments.

Well, being a Muslim myself, i am kinda scared of that myself. Because, honestly, the religion is not as bad as the media has portrayed it. And such propaganda has caused a scare in the hearts of non-muslims which i the cause of the tension.

Secondly...in this RUSH.. many people will convert to Muslim who dont really understand the religion. It is NOT about blowing up buildings or guns. The maniacs (i'd use worse words if this forum wasnt moderated) called Extremists and terrorists just use the name of the religion to gain support for their own causes or egos. It IS like that. So this blind following of the rush into Islam will defame it even more.

Simply replace the word Islam with any word which reflects something foreign, not generally known about or currently accepted in germany and you will get the same answer.

Although it could apply equally to other countries in which I have lived, Germany does seem particularly retiscent to, and inept at, adapting to any form of change.

Spread of Spicy food feared by 3/4 Germans

Spread of Salted butter feared by 3/4 Germans

Spread of ex-pats feared by 3/4 Germans

Spread of Foreign languages feared by.... you get the idea.

This time it's Islam, next time it'll be us atheists and the time after that it will be the bleedin' martians. From my experience, the need to demonise the different is just a part of the teutonic psyche and something which we, as fremden and ausländers deal with if we want to live in this wonderful country.

You'd think in this country , of all, that wouldn't be so.

Everbody killed on 9/11 was "affected" by Muslims living in Germany. And everyone affected by 9/11 in whatever way was thus affected by Muslims living in Germany.

After that, people in the tourism industry all around the world, including Germany, were affected, to name one small group.

Everybody who has since been unable to carry drinks on airplanes, or had to take off their shoes, has been affected by Muslims living among us. Same with those who have just had to sit nervously on airplanes with horrible terror-inspired visions..

Madrid and London were both affected by Muslims living in those countries.

The US, Britain, and now Germany, not to mention a few others, have been affected by having to send off thousands of troops to Afghanistan to deal with out of control Islam run amok. Many have died.

In short, most of western civilization had been affected by Muslims living among us.

So nothing outside of irrational fear then.

Somewhere on the interwebby there must be a graph of swine flu vaccine victims v germans killed by fundamental islamic terrorists. Add a third vector for people killed by/in cars to add a little perspective.

The spread of islam - mujahimite.

I've never been affected by a child molester or axe murderer either. Doesn't mean I want them around.

I guarantee you you know somebody effected by a child molester.

...well said HerrDinks...looks like you'll get away with it as well....what a racist

I'd be more bothered about sitting next to nervous fliers convinced that they're going to die at any second.But not as salty.

Good to know my family is now on the same level as paedophiles and murderers... and I thought I knew them so well.

So Muslims weren't effected by the act of fundamentalist Muslim nutters? Only 'western civilization'? By that do you mean white people?

Thank you,

This is exactly what I was referring to, the need among Germans ( and others, but this just happens to be about our hosts )to demonise the different. We, and many other parts of the world are just as affected by the actions of christians (I am assuming the complainees are christians) Most recently among them, child abuse, the holocaust, holocaust denial, witch burinings, mass genocide, spread of HIV and more trivial, shopping on Sunday, Church tax and rampant establishmentarianism holding back the country.

"and they looked from man to pig and from pig to man and already they could see no difference", George Orwell

or if you are religious "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", Jesus

There is plenty of blame on both sides, but the underlying cause is just one thing, religion, all religions.

But by his twisted logic he doesn't want anybody living next to him because if all Muslims could be terrorists then anybody could be a murderer or a child abuser.

DB...you are correct it is all about religion...and as you pointed out our hosts are a christian country.

I think the Muslims responsible for 9/11, Madrid, and London killed people of pretty much all races and backgrounds. Same applies to any attack on America, America being America.

I was only replying to a statement in which it was suggested that nobody has been at all affected by Muslims living among us. We all have. We don't need to have been blown up on a train or bus either for that to be the case.

These discussions almost always end up at the same place: the "good" Muslims vs. the "bad" Muslims, and the former not doing anything to clamp down on the latter.. And the question as to how many of the latter we should be willing to tolerate in order to protect the former.. Then there is also the broader question as to whether Muslim has any place at all in western civilization. It is undeniably repressive, and frankly at odds with modernity.

The demonizing going on here is more of Germans. And that's the really dumb thing. So what if Germans are hard-headed, stubborn sausage eaters wearing white socks with sandals, waking up early to steal the good spots at the pool?? That might be mildly annoying, but it's not the same as flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up trains and buses in the name of their culturally antagonistic religion(well OK, for the English maybe..) That the people here - especially those living in Germany, seem more inclined to point fingers at Germans than Muslims in all this is what's truly out of whack...

Not really true. Religions are only the excuse. 'God made me do it'. These are disenfranchised people whether they are Muslims or not. Those that are leading are just evil, and would find another excuse regardless of whether religion existed or not.

And on the other side people would complain about the immigrants in other ways if they weren't Muslims. After all we live in a country where they had to stick a star on people to differentiate them because they couldn't visually tell the difference. Once the witch hunt starts there is always a way. Watch out those blue eyed children.

Quatzsch.. The Jews in WWII were scapegoated in a time of extreme economic difficulty, post WWI upheaval, and frankly irrational European-wide anti-semitism going back centuries and centuries. They were not marching around, burning effigies of Western leaders, killing people - and bragging about it on TV - in the name of Yaweh, etc etc.. The hatred for the West was falsely attributed to them. With Muslims you can see it every day in their actions. Not all Muslims are doing this, obviously. But those who are are Muslims. Show me a Muslim Mahler or Kafka...

Muslims were indeed responsible for 9/11, Lisbon, and Madrid, as well as other daily horrors in the name of their religion all around the world, continuing unabated up to this day.

Furthermore, religion is not just an excuse. Look at the Taliban, and Afghanistan before the war. That was not just some evil guys blowing that Buddhist statue off the mountain-side. That was Islam in full swing.

@HerrDinks....

Concert by Amjad Ali Khan on 12.Dec.Ticket available.

Thought you might be interested....

Hmmm and what would you expect me as a 'good' Muslim to do about the 'bad'? Yeah, I hang out with them at the pub all the time.

Wait a minute, hanging out at the pub would make me a bad Muslim, oder? Oh well, guess I can't do anything either way.

....firstly "hams"....I'd change your name...

We've established that I am a 'bad' Muslim, so don't think it makes a difference. Ah, the irony.

You lost me. So it wasn't a human being that blew up the statues. It was an ideology?

Here's a few ideas:

Encourage your Muslim community - Muslim leaders - to vehemently denounce each and every act of Islamofacist terrorism. Oddly (or perhaps not so oddly) this rarely, if ever happens.

Encourage your Muslim community to stop preaching hatred in your mosques and madrases.

Encourage your Muslim community to start integrating instead of segregating.

Right - so you guys are just as active in your 'communities' as regards injustice, and the preaching of tolerance and integration?

Give me a break.

So we have a 'Muslim' who's integrated being shot down with stupid racist comments. Spot where the problem is...

Tomorrow on The Local: Survey shows that people in Germany are affected by living in Germany.

If we could leave trivia behind and go back to the really important point made at the start of this thread, why has no-one asked the Germans how many of them are afraid of spicy food? It would be 6 out of every 4 Germans, I'm willing to bet.

Hams (Bacon)....this is not personal at all...BUT Islam does have more problems than most at the moment...plus the point here is really about Muslims being active in a Christian country....I don't see that many Christians being active in Islamic countries....unless of course we count soldiers and oil companies

Do you think every 'Muslim' in a muslim country believes, practices and mentally goes through how to blow up an aeroplane before going to bed?

...I dunno Pas....they go to bed so late out there I never found out what they were doing or thinking before they actually hit the sheets...perhaps that's the problem???

Here are some people living in fear.

Non Muslim homes attacked to force residents out of the area

Quote:

The family had their windows smashed at least ten times

http://www.dailymail...ntegration.html

I would say fundamental Islam is the issue - not Islam per se.

What is a problem, is the demonization of Islam and normal Muslims a la Herr DB with his inherent intolerances and bigotry.

Do you think opinions and comments such as his and in a simlar vein by other posters, make me defend Islam even more staunchly, or come round to his point of view?

And this is from a woman who is not a practicing Muslim, and is as westernised as anyone on this forum, and integrated to boot.

Edit: BattalionBoy just proving my point.

I am scared about the spread of Islam in Europe, but I'm equally concerned about the spread of Christianity or any other such religion.

Monthly Jihad Report

November 2009

Jihad Attacks: 139

Countries: 14

Religions: 5

Dead Bodies: 529

Critically Injured: 1075

You would look good in a Burka Hams. Maybe it will be an improvement.

..thats a fair call Hams....I actually agree with lots of what HerrDinks says...but without wanting to get personal...if you aren't a practising Muslim and are integrated....what does Islam mean to you or what does being Muslim mean? I don't think anybody here by the way is actually targeting these comments at you...I for one am just having a laugh but would be interested on your view.

BB - you ever met me? If you have, then you're either blind or gay.

As Hutcho is eluding to. I think the world has more to fear from our fundamental christian communities. They tend to have bigger bombs.

Islam means to me my family and relatives; and by extrapolating, good people who are honest, hardworking and practice their faith in its truest and most peaceable form.

...agreed that all religious fanatics are a complete pack of idiots whatever side of the fence...but sometimes you have to choose a side and my beliefs are essentially "Christian" (in the loosest terms)...and I choose to live in a country that was based on Christian beliefs and morals...in an Islamic country we possibly wouldn't even be able to have this discussion...

Hams...you don't practice your faith...thats where I am confused?? Are you Atheist?

I'd like to think our goals shouldn't be to be as tolerant as some of the Muslim world.

Pas are you saying some in Islam are too tolerant? If so agreed...but they are often taken advantage of my other Muslims...note Pakistanis and Indonesians working in Middle East...

Let's just say that I believe in universal morals and ethics, without the need to adhere to a codified religion.

I have never mentioned God to my son. He celebrates Christmas with his German Protestant grandparents, and Eid with his Muslim grandparents only with the understanding that these are special times of the year for family and friends expressing love and appreciation of having each other.

No, he is saying that our goals shouldn't be to be intolerant like they are..

YES - I am a part-time vigilante. I formed a branch of the Guardian Angels last year to keep the streets safe but currently there is a membership of one. I think the costumes I wear are putting others off plus the lock-up I rent to interrogate suspects has made a few people queasy.

ok...cheers Hutcho...a lot goes over my head...

Hams...you are not really Muslim then? You are possibly like loads of us here...living free and able to express ourselves in a Christian based country?

Maybe, but definitely one with distinction.

good girl Hams...we all like a friendly tart

What's Mao & Stalin's excuse?

I would not equate freedom of speech and thought to be purely equated with the fact that we live in a 'Christian' country. If that was the case, then Zimbabwe being predominantly Christian would also be comparable.

We live in a democracy - that is the point.

And what does it mean to be 'really Muslim' or 'really Christian'? Surely religion is a personal and private matter.

At least the Germans don't have to worry about Muslims driving up the price of pork...I wonder if they realise Muslims don't eat pork?

@Trek. Did you put him right or leave it to a member of his own community?

"Amen" to that..

You mean ??m?n' of course.

what goals are these - you mean like setting climate change goals, reducing unemployment, etc?

The world should allow Muslims to live only in Muslim, that is, Islamic, countries. All Muslims currently living in the West should be required to return to their native, ancestral Muslim countries, and stay. Once they have all returned to their Muslims homelands, they should not be allowed to leave and return to the West. They can travel, but only to other Muslim countries. There should be a quarantine on them, as if they had a contagious, fatal disease, which they do. We have granted them the privilege of living in the West, but they are not grateful, indeed, in return, they want to kill us and take over our countries. They have betrayed our hospitality, and our generosity, and it is time for them to go home and stay there. Germans -- and the entire civilized world -- are right to fear these people. They bring violence, death, cruelty, oppression of women, a sense of entitlement and a disrespect for human life. This needs to be contained.

A very good point, and one which should be answered. (I am currently writing a book along a similar vein)

I do not think that there is any difference between the behaviour of humans following the cults of Mao, Stalin, god, allah, yahwe, zeus, flying spaghetti monster, Skaro etc and the followers of dictators and their ilk.

I think that it is human nature to take the easy way out and if someone gives an answer that fits, then it is easier to accept it without question (those who do question are encouraged by various means not to, thus perpetuating the myth) than struggle to answer the question through rational thought and common sense.

Scientists advance science, religion advances religion, religion is no threat to science, however science is a great threat to religion and it is obvious to see whats going to happen and which is more beneficial to everyone?

Try replacing the words science and religion with the word communism and see what interesting things happen.

There is a great deal of excellent and compelling evidence that religion (faith / the ability to believe in the unbelievable) has evolved as part of the human mammal and no-one can deny the instinct to belong, or be part of the herd. The head of whichever group, * is ascribed with almost supernatural powers over life and death and deigned to have the answers to all lifes problems.

So to answer the point about Mao and Stalin, I dont think there is any difference between Maoism, Stalinism, Kim jong Illism, and the worship of supernatural deities as they all follow the god and worshipers format. All are vehemently against other ideals, all have some kind of holy book or mythical figure*, all violently and vigorously defend their ideologies and all are threatened by criticism and rational thought.

TT is not really suitable for a big long ramble on the subject though, so I hope I was concise enough. It would be really interesting to hear some other thoughts on this and if anyone comes up with a good reason for me to do so, then I'll happily change my mind.

*whether real or imaginary (how many of his followers actually saw Mao, or stalin, or Kim jong Ill in person, or heard their teachings directly from them they could just as well have been imaginary and everything came from their "spokespeople" here on earth / politburo. Ok we know from other evidence that they existed, but in 2000 years from now, who knows)

It's still not snowing in Schwabing.

Yippee, another hate thread on Muslim and Islam! Hey, you from the Local: Check this, there's been a lot of other stuff happening today which equals the superb quality of your very own articles. Just copy from them if you absolutely cannot find anything else to report:

Dog falls foul of school inspectors

Fears of Christmas tree shortage

Grave robbers steal former Cyprus president's corpse

Australian police cracks down on alcohol violence

You don't have to thank me.

Let's be fair. Putting Muslims and Israelis together , whether radical or not, tends to be a difficult situation.

@DB. Is it not just easier to say totalitarianism is the problem and skip the religion bit then? Whether it be a political system or a religious one. As soon as any one 'thing' has complete control and is believed to have all the answers then bad things , sooner or later, happen.

I actually think this thread has been quite reasonable (in most cases) and on the whole is tending towards tolerism and a healthy scepticism of both sides of the religious divide rather than hate. It has some very interesting posts from Muslims, Christians and non-believers alike and is well worth a read as it hasn't as yet succumbed to radicalism and zealotry which sadly topics often become.

Cheers Pas, yes it is.

Very concisely put, do you mind if I use that by the way?

I think I was perhaps over egging the pudding in my efforts to be case specific and cover all bases so it didnt hijack the thread

@MajorBummer....that Aussie police crackdown is more people have to put up with...great call!

Alcohol is a sign of the devil.

The Australians must be made to repent.

Tbh, I can't wait for the Irish Hen Night tonight.

>Surely religion is a personal and private matter.

*should be* a personal and private matter

As I have written here before - man is a tribal animal. He needs to feel he belongs to a tribe. This explains why the world's biggest tribes (religions) have come about. Tribal survival involved "being wary" of other tribes.

@ HerrDB, Alcala and the other fundamentalist (you think you're not?) "christians". Do you not understand that your brand of fundamentalism is *exactly* the same as the brand you claim to hate?

You may claim "yeah but I don't go about blowing people up!". No, you let others do that for you. If you're that passionate about it - sign up!!

BTW that last comment is not to denegrate the *professional* soldiers of all armies currently operating. They are professionals doing what they are ordered. The orders come from those few at the top who get people like you to believe their fundamentalist crap.

....ummm...and where would that Irish Hens nite be heading...just quietly....

I think all those participating in this thread can have a gluhwein...when a scholar (DB) says the thread is ok...then I as an unqualified layabout can rejoice...actually I'll have to refill my gluhwein

...Australians should def repent....

It could be reasonably argued that any spread of Islam in the west can only be a good thing - particularly for those who hold a negative opinion of Islam, perhaps due to all the blowing up of stuff that some of their more radical followers are into, or for those who think it's all about oppression of women.

You have to assume, perhaps optimistically, that the spread of Islamic values in the west, where there are relatively large amounts of freedom, education and choice, will lead to a much more relaxed type of Islam practised by people who are open to and in touch with western values - which may provide a bit more balance within the religion as a whole.

I don't think religion in itself is dangerous, just fanaticism, which religion can breed, particularly in places where it is the only voice.

Anyway, that's far too serious for a friday afternoon man. I'm off to the ubahn to stand about with my cock out. Could be a little embarrassing in this weather, but it, I'm game.

I gave you a greenie....but only for your cock hanging out bit....

Bigoted he may be, but I must admit that HerrDB is sorta a notorious veteran around here, so the (usually inflammatory) comments he makes are rarely dismissed out of hand. (why his -196 rep on TT hasn't yet resulted in his excommunication, while my +3 to +7 rep former handles got me the boot [three times!!] is beyond me!)

Anyway, I think HerrDB made a couple good points:

1) ¦quot;The demonizing going on here is more of Germans. And that's the really dumb thing. So what if Germans are hard-headed, stubborn sausage eaters wearing white socks with sandals, waking up early to steal the good spots at the pool?? That might be mildly annoying, but it's not the same as flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up trains and buses in the name of their culturally antagonistic religion(well OK, for the English maybe..) That the people here - especially those living in Germany, seem more inclined to point fingers at Germans than Muslims in all this is what's truly out of whack...¦quot;

2) ¦quot;Not all Muslims are doing this, obviously. But those who are are Muslims.¦quot;

3) ¦quot;The Jews in WWII were scapegoated in a time of extreme economic difficulty, post WWI upheaval, and frankly irrational European-wide anti-semitism going back centuries and centuries. They were not marching around, burning effigies of Western leaders, killing people - and bragging about it on TV¦quot;

Oh yeah, one more thing that I will just throw out there for arguments-sake: the prophet Mohammed was all about tolerance and living in harmony (while his group was the MINORITY!), but as soon as he was in power he "flipped the script" and started singing a totally different tune (persecution/intolerance/repressiveness). Just think about that in terms of long-term implications for Wester European society/culture...

Hello all together,

I'm not one of them, who actualy fear the Islam and some friends ao mine ar Moslems.

But I have to say, that I'm shocked by the testiness of the islamic world:

There is no relation between painting a stupid picture and burning flags or attacking an embassy.

For that I can understand, that people fear hair-trigger dogs.

All of the comments shows, that this is a sensetive topic

Couple things.. If you're not a "practicing Muslim", then afaic you're not a Muslim. "Muslim" is not a race or nationality. It's a religion, a faith, and Islam is the major world religion at the moment most dangerously tarnished by fanaticism, and most threatening to a more rational, advanced world order based largely, like it or not, on western values and standards. All of that post-colonialist trendy bullshit since the 70's has tried to put the west on the defensive and to get us to waste a lot of time and effort deconstructing ourselves, and thanks to the left, who has invited this and relished in it, it has been to an extent succesful. The west has become too timid to defend its own principles.

But let's be clear, we live in a western world. People around the world want to live according to western values and standards - democracy, materialistic consumption, peace, etc.. And yes, don't bore me with it..., I know there are flaws in all of it. Like there are flaws in everything - always have been, always will be. But maybe the problem here is that there is an absolutist, idealist nonsense holdover strain from the birth of communism up through the 60's, etc.., whereby the intellectually unimaginative, instead of proposing real world solutions, just want to keep striving for some perfect world that is never going to happen.. Problems in civilization?? Throw it out and start again...

But I digress(attacks on the left just come so naturally.., so sorry if I let one slip...) The point is, the world is dominated by western ideals, standards, and institutions. In the same way that the US is essentially a European country, culturally. And by extension, so is the world. Globalization basically means the globalizing of western everything - culture, production, consumption, entertainment, aspirations, etc etc etc...

Now, the only real challenges to all this are 1.) the anarchists and leftists within our midst who want to tear everything down from the inside out, and 2.) Islam, who wants to destroy it wholesale. In the former case, that is a more or less normal process of cultural development(however cancerous the problem..) In other words, we can deal with that within the system. But with Islam, we are dealing with a fundamentally alien entity, one which is completely at odds with western civ in toto..

So, coming back to your quote hams. I don't see myself as demonizing Islam. I simply recognize Islam, upon rational anaylsis, as a worldview at odds with and which cannot peacefully coincide with the west. Talk of caliphates and the like further suggest an aggressive expansionist tendency, with further implications for conflict btw. Against that background we are now dealing with an islamiziation of Europe, which is basically what this thread is about. I don't demonize my enemy in the shallow, Psych 101 "demonizing the other" way you suggest. MUSLIMS were guilty of 9/11, Madrid, and London. They did all that IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, the same way they continue to blow up innocent people - daily.. It's only natural that Islam then be "demonized" to a certain extent. But yeah, it's like "demonizing" poisonous snakes. If I don't want to be around poisonous snakes, that makes me according to you and the left "inherently bigoted and intolerant"... All I said at the beginning of this thread was, look, these snakes have indeed bitten people among us, contrary to what was being implied. I was just putting the facts back at the forefront, as it was being attempted to obscure them with a PC haze.

So anyhow, I don't see what I'm doing as "demonizing". I'm just recognizing the enemy, however un-PC it is to say it.

You, btw, not being Muslim, would not be one I guess.. Or maybe you are, because of your family. In a pinch, I guess it would come down to your individualism vs. your family and their religion. Blood is thicker than water, as they say.., so who knows....

All this is just more evidence that RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING. The whole idea of how ALL religion controls people using fear and the promise of things that they never have to keep is one pathetic racket, and an idea whose time is well past......

As we can see there are a lot of conflicting ideas on this, and as such, there is only one solution: INTO THE FREEZER with them, Dr. Beggs. It's time for another experiment. Happy thoughts, totalitarian thoughts, fundamentalist thoughts, vigilante thoughts, thoughts on Aussies, etc. It's ice crystal time.

I'd be delighted.

The bit I'm trying to work out is whether the people who end up in these positions start of bad and accumulate power to feed their own agendas or the very act of having total power corrupts people and turns them evil. I suspect it's a bit of both. Sociopaths seem to be born but is it safe to assume all the evil dictators in history were born sociopaths?

There is something about this that makes me think about the christians in the 7th -18th centuries and particularly the mid 20th century, but I cant th…[/quote]and yet you call them...Very reminiscent of a certain "nest of vipers" speech?

I am not sure whether Godwins law applies to those adopting the traits of its subject person.

On the subject of Australia Captain Cook was correct: it needs steeping in the sea for 24 hours to rid it of human vermin.

I don't actually think that you or anyone else is qualified to tell me who or what I am.

'The enemy'... need I say more as regards to demonization.

As for your grasp of the 'facts', it's tentative to say the least.

But as the Don said, it's Friday, supposedly my day of rest, so I shall put that into effect with regards to this thread.

Alcala - Irish Hen Night heading for drinks, dinner and then who knows what. But as we're all classy chicks, it'll be a low key and tasteful affair.

...and no inside info on direction....thats poor form on a Friday arvo...

> But let's be clear, we live in a western world.

Tell that to the starving millions in Africa.

> People around the world want to live according to western values and standards

No . People like you just think they should. Just like al Qaeda and the Taliban think we should all live like them. See the parallel?

> democracy

only when you actually *have* a voice - when the voting machines work properly

> materialistic consumption

Such as owning a big house on a sub-prime mortgage, or demanding a huge bonus for driving a bank into the dust

>peace

?? do you read what you write?

trek11000 - I denounce anyone of any religion practicing murderous and hateful tendencies towards their fellow man.

Unlike for some, such an issue is not dependent on religion, but humanity regardless of creed, race or any other prejudicial determinant.

Something which we already know that HerrDB refutes.

Its not fear of only German fear, its feared all over the world because of Fundamental elements which infuse the brain of children so m uch as adults that they develop into full grown religious fundamentalists.

May be United nations should come up with a plan to save the children all over the world from religious education so that when they grow up they have the choice to choose their religion or to be aethist if so they like.

Islamic education is proving dangerous to the world peace as a whole because these so called islamist schools are breeding ground of putative terrorists.

and instead of fighting and killing terrorists right way would be to stop the brain wash which they undergo as children which develops them into terrorists.

Couldn't agree more aswd.

But let's not just corner one religion. I think all religious schools should be banned. I was sent to a christian school myself - maybe that's why I am now a humanist.

Removing the religious indoctrination from children would go a long way to stopping the fundamentalism we see (even on this forum) on both sides of the conflict in Afghanistan and in many other places around the world.

Agreed. All religious schools should be closed. And religious education in schools banned.

@aswd: I'm pretty sure that that's what UNICEF's mandate requires it to do (but do you think its working?! lol)

Herr Dinks - great post but do not criticize the LEFT or commies on this forum as it will not be tolerated.

EVERY post i have ever posted lambasting communist / leftie wannabees have been removed. every single one. i don't know why. maybe this site is controlled and guided by left winger dingers. but people can offend all and sundry on here except the left.

Good point aquascutum.

If HDB writes

"But I digress(attacks on the left just come so naturally.., so sorry if I let one slip..."

then to use logic he understands:

If you're not left wing, you're right wing.

Now look where *that* got the world ....

DB, we don't live in the 17th or 18th century, but in the here and now in the 21st. Feet on the ground..

Secondly, this keeps coming back to Psych 101 and all this demonization talk. There is such a thing as a legitimate enemy, contrary to leftist mumbo-jumbo.

Hyenas and lions are enemies. It's not because they have these ignorant demonizing of the "other" concepts in their head, but because of reality. That's how it works. Competition, conflict, etc.

And precisely that is what is so maddening to me about the left. These people speak as if human reality is on some rarified plane of abstract social (or psychological) theory as discussed in feel-good undergraduate coffee-shop discussions.

But back here down in the real world, Muslims are brutally murdering people every day. In the name of Islam. All I've been doing here is making that clear, against the incessant waves of obfuscating PC mendaciousness.

And that being the case, such poll results as are the basis of this thread, are completely understandable.

Islam and democracy don't mix as water and oil don't mix. #25 spot on.

When did the Local's comment boards become the Fox News comment boards.

@HairDinksBums

"MUSLIMS were guilty of 9/11"

I don't think any of the companies in the world capable of controlled demolition on this scale reside in muslim majority countries. Look very hard at who is giving you your fundemantalism before you accept it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032

The history book on the shelf, is always repeating itself.

Nothing to fear. You Germans, like most Westerners, live in a cocoon. London may be wonderful, but it's not England - and they will never get it back. Go look at it sometime, and see what is going to happen to you. London is a dicrarceful mess, if any of you lazy bastards would ever take a bus to the nether parts of it.

Muslims have not created a thing beneficial to Western society, and don't t give me any crap about the alphabet or counting system. What have they done for us in the last 2,000 years? Nothing - just like the Greeks.

I couldn't care less whether you believe it or not tbh.

And actually, the majority of my languages are of European origin i.e. 3 of 4.

Now back to my Becks.

So, Muslims/Islamics seek the opportunity and prosperity of the west and move to the west only to decide that Christendom, whatever, etc., is not better than Islam and decide they need to bring to the west, that problem they had to get away from in the east. Talk about indecisive; make a decision, but don't impose it on everyone else. Everyone else wouldn't get away with it in any Muslim/Islam country.

Everyone tolerated Islam until Islam attacked them, but that is not an argument against multiculturalism or multiple religions living amongst each other. It is only sad for Islamic people they bring these perceptions based on fact on themselves which only holds them down and keeps them repressed across the world. I'm sure there are decent ones in the world in that religion.

One thing that annoys me about Islam or the terrorists is that they are just as hypocritical as anyone else or any other religion. For example, the 9/11 terrorists of the Hamburg cell visited Wacko's strip club on many occasions. Ironic that it was called Wacko's, but in the name of religion, jihad, holy war, whatever, etc., they found it necessary to look at women without headscarves, veils, niqab, whatever, etc. before their mass killing of thousands of innocent people. Doesn't the strip club violate the ethics of Islam? Just another example of how they, like all people of any religion, contradict themselves in their actions. As my favorite professor once told his students, "we are what we do, not what we say."

@LancashireLad:

I've been cautiously self-debating (for like an hour) on how best to respond to post#104...

Here's the thing: think about the casualty/mortality radius that would result from the lateral collapse of a skyscraper in downtown Manhattan....then think about the contingency-planning prudence of (secretly) including certain ¦quot;requirements¦quot; in the building codes of anything above xxx.x feet... ;-)

all I'm saying is just think about it a little...

@Schnukel: look up Takfir methodology

You cant expect people protesting clergies when the only thing that has been taught from the day of birth is to fight Jehad or the religious war to convert whole world to Islam.

Only solution seems to be banning the religions all together.

Unlike europe where people have choice to be atheist or have very little religion, its equivalent to commiting a murder if you dont endorse religion in which you are born in several parts of the world.

And I think this is one major reason of supremacy of western civilisation over all of eastern,asian and african world that they had the courage to speak against their religious leadeers or just to ignore them altogether.

This is just about everything that needs to be said on the subject."Are you worried that Islam is spreading too much in our society? Greatly worried/Worried a little/Not worried."

Now I'm not sure what the English word for Suggestivfrage is, but...

[pointed/leading question]

Hi everyone. Believing in a religion is a right of human beings.Having mosques anywhere in the world where there are worshippers why not built them. In England government or boroughs help in many ways to built mosques for Muslims and why not in other countries of Europe. Islam is a religion and majority of the people on this planet are aware of it that its a religion of more than 1.5Billion people. They do have a right to pray and built their mosques same as Christians have their Churches around the world. Muslims do not go against their belief and pose no problem when they want to built a church. Its rather silly and lack of understanding that some people go against Islam or Muslims. If they understand that its a second leading religion on this earth planet they would respect Islam and its followers.To politicise for some political gains is not a good idea. It creates problems for all and that must be avoided.

It is nothing to worry about the spread of religion if it was good for humanity but the idea of Islam that is spreading make the followers themselves lock themselves up in self made world that they become useless for the society as a whole.

And second is concept of religious war where you force on poit of weapons your religion on top of others like it was done in countries like India, Indonesia and gave birth to Islamic countries like Pakistan,Bangladesh which ultimately became breeding grounds of terrorism and hatred for the whole world.

Seems to me that the best solution is to ensure that we have a liberal, secular state, based on the Rule of Law, that sets itself above ALL religions.

"We want Sharia Law" - Bog off. The laws of this country are secular - if you live here, you comply or else you're a common criminal. You want "Honour Killings", stoning to death, public beheadings, amputations, forced marriages (etc) - sod off and live somewhere else in the Stone Age. Out! Now!

"We must have Kosher/Halal law" - if you want to publically torture animals, sod off and go somewhere else - now!

"Christ abhors poofdahs and lesbians, it says so in the Gospel According to Apostle Bloggs Book IV verse III" - off, now!.

That way, the primacy of decency and tolerance asserts itself against the filth of organised, fundamentalist religion of whatever colour.

At the same time, the State needs to guard itself against other fundamentalist tendencies, i.e. that "The Market" is some kind of God which, miraculously, works in the best interests of all. That's Marxist Class Warfare in reverse.

well it just wouldn't be a normal week without the LOCAL printing something to stir up another Islam or Turkish debate. wow people get a grip. If any of you knew a quater about Islam you wouldn't be posting so many negative things about the religon. the tiny minority of people who are wrongly using Islam as their excuse to do terrible things should not be looked at as a reflection of Islam, just like how the Muslims did not look at the actions of the christian terrorist group KKK when they were burning churches with people locked in, as a reflection of all christians.

Truely education is the key to understanding a lot of things and if some of you aren't smart enough to see some of the simple things in life then you have some deep issues.

Hams can you hand me a becks please i'm a bit thirsty over here myself.

It is really sometimes very hard to comprehend why countries and people in asia and africa cant do away with their religious hate-mongers and leaders.

Starting point should be to denounce the religion all together as it seems to be sole source of evil that is eating away the humanity itself.

It takes people away from all together to such an extreme that they can not even wine and dine together.

Dont eat this that is against religion

dont drink this it is against religion

dont take sun bath this is against religion

dont go to sea-shore bare its against religion.

It is really hard to comprehend this.

or anything of so called religion which boggles mind to such an extent that they really drift apart.

It is so sad that while in west people dont care abouth what catholic church preaches, and give a damn to it,you see just the opposite in eastern culture.

Even the highest educated docters engineers and scientist would be seen fobidding themselves in these dos and donts preached by someone illiterate with long beard who know nothing of science or humanism.

It will be a coomon sight to see people at highest posts bending before these stupid religious preachers.

The only solution is to take the humanity away from this religious burden which is eating like white ants into very fabric of our humanity.

At least the core years when a childs brain is being formed should be taken away from hate breeding grounds which we call religion.

All religion for children before they reach the age of 18 must be banned like we ban tobacco or alcohol so that a grown up adult is able to choos for itslef whether it wants any kind of STUPID Religion that can turn him into and blood thirsty demon spreading fanaticsm

What I don't get is why are the germans getting hot under the burkah about islam when one of their own is head of the world's biggest paedophile ring?

Hey Sparkling, I'm waiting to read your response to this routine nonsense.

While huge majority of adults born in catholic and protestant families all over across and united staes can proudly call themselves atheist and is of a common evidence, I am yet to find a adult born in other religions who has the capability to turn atheist as a adult.

So it seems people are helpless and need help and the only help we can render is to take all tyhe children away from religion.

Half of the worlds problems would be solved automatically as most of them would never believe in any kind of stupid ideas of religious wars, or dos and donts or making for their own mothers and sisters a hell on htis earth with so many taboos and hatred.

Lets give humanity a chance and take away the children from the hands of religion all together

Maybe you should brush up on your history and understand what led to the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh (at the time, East Pakistan, until they won their own war of Independence and obviously not based on religion since both are Muslim countries).

As for your later post about not being able to eat this, drink that, go to the beach etc.

Jews are also not meant to eat pork.

Hindus are not meant to eat beef.

Victorians didn't allow ladies to swim in bikinis but fully clothed.

Therefore, if we talk of Islam, one needs to talk of reformation. However, when there is no hiearchy or formal church, and the Quran is the word of God and there is no leeway for the passage of time and evolution - that's when the trouble starts.

Also the fact that the majority of Muslim countries are not industrialised but Third World and at best Developing. Therefore, sending one's child to a Madrasa for education, literacy, food and shelter (and admittedly in some, fanaticism) is understandable when a parent trying to feed many mouths under intolerable circumstances.

Everything is perspective and neither you nor I are qualified to discuss these issues apart from agreeing that education and the eradication of poverty are the first steps in stopping such fundamentalism.

Googling "mujahimite" to find out wtf it means, did not bring me much further, in my quest for wisdom.

because Burkah takes away the rights of the whole sex which consitutes 50% of the population.

Burkah takes away the right to be a equal human like a male.

a burkah is used often to turn women to prostitution all across asia.

a burkah is what makes achild born from the female sham all female.

and this burkah takes away the very right to go to a religious place along with males

and this very burkah has been the reasons of rivers of floods of bloods since centuries.

and this is very Burkah which takes people away from each other, makes people look different, spreads hate and causes 9/11.

Its this Burkah which leads to killing of so many innocents across the world

and this is very Burkah which divides humanity

aswd - you are at best simplistic, at worst a simplistic fool.

Replace 'burkah' with intolerance and you may have a cogent argument.

Goodnight all - wishing you a peaceful weekend.

Hams victorians have done away with their practices, Indians all across the world easily intermingle with other cultures and religion so well that you can easily eat Beef or any kind of meat in any of the Indische restaurent all over Germany or England or United staes.

Can you name me one Islamic restaurent which can serve pork or wine.

Why to keep humanity away from each other on basis of what you can eat drink or wear or why to forbid your own mothers and sisters with somany dos and donts upto the extent of cutting away the sexual organs of the female child so as to make them feel unwanted and reduce their apetite for sex.

Are we not doing a great wound on humanity by letting this blockheaded religious leader cut away the sex organ of female child which constitutes 50% of population.

We never see people protest against such grave cruality.

Even the vast majoriy settled for years in europe and united staes never speaks up a single word.

A single act inAfghanistan causes them to come with big flags of protest all-over the world why not such grave injustice against their own sisters and wives and mother s which takes them far far away than a european women which has the abilty and all rights in the world to be fiercely independent as compared to mutiliated Burkah cad females who have lost all self confidence under worst kind of slavery from their own men

I don?t think anyone would mind Islam if it didn?t seem to oppress women so much.

It is really hard to imagine what religion has made to the women.

Unlike european women who appear so confident, you can see Burkah clad womens shaking in their feet and noway match to their european counterparts.

Womens are tortured in marriages,divorce on basis of separte set of religious laws which gives men to have liberty to marry 4 women but if a wmen wants a divorce, she is foced into prostitution.

And sad is united nations even cand do anything with this foolish laws which takes us to stone age

What happened to Hams sandwich - did it flonce?

Why are europeans moaning about the rise of extereme islam? Europe had it's chance to join George Bush and Tony Blair on their crusade and and wimped out.

Only 3 out of 4? Who's the other nitwit??

Assuming that was a genuine query, the answer is "leading question".

I actually think (and many other will silently agree) that keeping females in their place is a thing that Islam does very well and that we in the western world could learn a lot from if we wanted....life was heaps better for men when we had them in the kitchen!!

Joining Bush or Blair was never a good option for europe because instead of solving root of problem it could wreck economic disaster.

This crusade launched by Bush can only end when every single citizen is killed because they will alll lay down and fight because thats what there brains have been brainwashed by some stone age writings about religious wars since they were born.

Ans what happens to childrens even in this crusade you end up killing all adults.

there brains are still being brainwashed by dirty Mullahs in mosque and religious schools who indulge n all kind of wrongful acts and shield behind religion because they sit pretty sure that they have distorted the very thought process in child which distinguishes us a human being-thats our ability to think independendly as individual.

Fighting the type of war which Bush launched can never benefit the whole world-may be it can protect the asia subcontinent countries like Japan, India or China being swept away before the force of religious Bigots and religious fundamentalists who have no end to cruelity they can impose on their own mothers daughters and sisters whom they have begotten themselves.

Even the most learned of them even the ones which have gone to law school or medical school are still so blinded by this stupid stone age religion that they can not see what they are doing to their own society

Alcala go and try to live for some days in islamic world, that would make you understand what freedom to women means in the western world and how it has developed a society which is far more superior than developed by writings of some stone age lunatics and being guided by them blind eyed because they lost vision reading about pages from some schizophrenic guy ins stone age.

They can even understand how science has process of evolution and living beings evolve by themselves from lower to higher forms.

How can they understand science or medicine anyways when they are being guided by some schizophrenic writings which they keep on intrepreting in modern day and trying to fit in scinece into some stone age verses.

@aswd...thanks..."tried to" live in sharjah for 2 years...used to have many muslim (arabic in this case) women come to my villa to drink some wine and talk...I found it very interesting and most insightful and obviously would have been arrested for having alcohol in the kingdom and having women at my villa...especially "locals"....so I am quite happy taking the piss and choosing what side of the fence I want to sit on with each comment...because thats what I can do.....

@aswd...lots of muslim women would rather be wife number 4 in the islamic world...with her own house and financial support for her and kids...than a mistress in the western world with nothing (whore??) lots of them were happy to only see husbands sometiimes...once a month, once a week, whenver...the said it gave them more time to do what they wanted to do...without having to look after a man all the time...obviously you are an islamic female who knows more than everybody about how islamic women should feel?

Alcala you either seemed to be pissed off by mis-use of women freedom in europe or you are some kind of self hating psychology.

Just try to see fro eye of a person from asia how perfect the europen women have evolved into.

They never istill fears in minds of children nor some kind of religious poison which brings the children turned adults to graves.

Most of the women from this schizophrenised religious world dont have even the freedom to take a shower while the men are around, or are you crzy and you wish to take all of europe out of this scientific world to some stone age demonic world where a stupid crazy bearded stone age man raise voice like a animal early in morning and mystifies the crazy population an believer into the so called religious wars

I thought that this article was kind of interesting..:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,666448,00.html

What struck me was, this is, among other things..., a religion vs. secularism issue. Europe fought for centuries to get out of the grip of irrational religion. But what's happening now is, a radically intolerant religion like Islam is indeed undeniably trying to spread throughout Europe. And the PC movement, so full of hipocrisy.., treats it with kid gloves. I think this aspect of the issue is underappreciated(not by Muslim spokespeople though, who know exactly what buttons to push..) These kinds of PC double-standards are what drive people further to the right. Not just minarets and burqas, but the hypocrisy of living in a PC-media-drenched supposedly secular state(OK, maybe nominally, but yes, Christianity, being so deeply ingrained here from centuries of history, automatically has a different status.. This is in any event undeniable. Architecture, to name one minor - or not so minor - example..), but one where PC makes irrational exceptions for immigrant Muslims. With no thought about what is sensible for Europe. No, for PC it's about elevating immigrants and their plight to some absurd height, sometimes beyond the rest of society..(few years back I remember reading about some asylum seekers in Britain having better health benefits than some British citizens- some of whom had worked and paid for the system..)

Nobody, myself included, has a problem I think with Muslim doctors and engineers et al living in Europe, doing their thing, but keeping their religion a completely private affair. But the building of big mosques and minarets and the wearing of burqas and the separate treatment for Muslim girls in swimming classes and the like are no longer private affairs. Insisting on them is to insist on non-integration into European culture, period. Now, it's clear Muslims would demand these things. But when the left does it, that's when things get polarized. And understandably so.

Back to religion vs. secularism... Nowhere do I see PC spokespeople pointing out that Islam is an intolerant, irrational religion, after all. No, that's not what it's about for Guardian-types(the Guardian is basically the journalistic minaret for espousing PC views across Europe..) For PC-ness, it's about oppression of immigrants, however preposterous their religion or creeds. And this kind of PC hokum is what will continue to drive people furhter and further to the right, right or wrong....

I for one wouldn't have a problem if we had to step on some European Christian toes and realign the discussion along secular vs. relgious lines. I honestly think though that to do so would rattle the left, because it'd also require stepping on the toes of these poor innocent immigrants...

Which perfectly illustrates the typical hipocrisy of the left: there's noone the left like to hate more than religious conservatives. BUT, they are the vanguard in supporting the interests of radical Islam in Europe.

Therein lies the rub...

Alcala why to need a financial support from men?

Do the european women seek support.

And your idea of being wife number 4 of some schizophrenic white clothe robed long bearded mullah is abit too crazy.

Perhaps you are attracted by the idea of possessing 4 womens at atime which you can not have as noone even can com prehend for such crazy ideas.

And I am pretty sure no women could be happy living with 3 other women for his men.

if she is, it is again the religious stone age schizohrenic ideas written by some comic fool whom they glorifywith lot of wisdom.For once your brains are whitwashed with such lunatic and fanatic religious ideas as child, you can also be happy being the 100th women of some long bearded dirty men shouting from top of a builiding on microphone early in morning

@herrdinks...nicely put!! Unfortunately our very tolerance has lead to all of this...I always jokingly ask people (PC gang) to take a side...they dont seem to understand that they would have to make a decision if a muslim ever asked them in the future and had control over them...no use sitting on the fence not wanting to offend anyone then....

@aswd...ummm...let me think...why did anna nicole smith marry that old fart? Not sure it was because he was a great lover...and as I pointed out this is what was told to me by groups of Arabic women...who am I to tell them how they should feel...and if you care to read you will also see that I agree with herrdinks...bring on islam...no problems....just dont try and ram it down my throat...I think you are taking my lighthearted comments very seriously...go outside and have a smoke....

Thinking only from european perspective is like taking yourself off from responsibilties of a world citizen.

Imagine the cruelities metted out to children in this islamic world.

What would happen if tomorrow you happen to be born as a child in islamic world.

You have no way out but to turn into some blood thirsty terrorist because thats what you have been taught to be since you were a child and all the glory lies in fighting the religious wars.

Cant you think from the point of childrens right to inherit the world free of theses schizophrenic lunatic thoughts.

Dont the children all across the globe should have the right to choose what they want to think independently.

How do you think os sparing europe and keeping it aloof in globalised world when it would one day be sorrounded by religious fanatics.

For sure it would cause havoc.

No amount of laws would be able to prevent that religious onslaught in this globalised world.

and than one day remain pretty sure that these blood thirsty lunatics would take control of all of europe and turn your womens into Burkah clad fanatics and than forget of all kinds of freedoms that you cherish in this democratic society- for than there will be no freedom.

Imagine a bearded man from some top building of Marienplatz over a mike would proclaim all womens in Germany to cover their faces with black death or they would either be killed or turned into prostitutes or their faces disfigured by acid- and this they would proclaim on basis of writing of some stone aged men whom they would call instructions from some god

Herrdinks if I had power in my hand for a day, I would make construction of any new religious monumnet a offfence since religion seems to have become a curse on whole humanity.

It may not be possible tr brake away already existing minarets with blood thirsty lunatics with white washed brains, but of course in our own country we should have right to forbid any such stupid constructions

@aswd...you sound like a fanatic...Im glad youre on my team

Let's start by destroying the links between church and state we are still afflicted by and worry about being controlled by Islam if it ever became an issue. Which it's not , and is highly unlikely to ever be.

To the delight of most of humanity, most of younger generations has almost done away with church.

Catholic and protestant marriages are a common norm and if church decides not to baptise people dont care anymore.

So who cares for the link between the church and state and anyways in coming decade the new european generation is slowly doing away with any kind of religion all together.

people are becoming more and more scientifically inclined and give a foot to what anyone connected with religion thinks of their attitude.

Can you imagine such things happening around afghanistan, Iraq or iran or Turkey.

if that ever happens world would be a very happy place to live in.

Even if that happens in Turkey, at least europe can breathe a sigh of relief.

Herr DB, did your father used to beat you with a rolled up copy of the Manchester Guardian for skipping Sunday school? Just trying to understand what appears to be an almost unhealthy obsession.

Living in the US and only visiting Germany, I obviously can't really comment on reality vs. this poll. However, I do believe that one thing seems true in both places.

While most people seem to realize that the terrorists who claim to be Muslims are, in fact, extremists, the Muslim community doesn't seem terribly interested in disclaiming them. Now that may be simply that the "media" doesn't report the "other side" but in the days following 9-11, I saw little from either the religious or political leaders from Islam saying "This isn't our religion" or words to that effect.

It may well be true that what we continually see and hear about Islam is only that extreme version, and it is equally true that there have been, and still are, extremists and terrorists from other religions (witness the years of such things in Ireland as only one example) but the lack of public commentary from the "leaders" of this religion help fuel the feeling that all of Islam is in on things.

This may be a lack of reporting, but I have to feel that the result is a society strongly biased and afraid of people who simply worship differently. if that's true, then it is truly sad.

Yes I can. And it will happen.

Why do you think those in power are clamping down. The islamic world has more to 'fear' from westernisation than we have to worry about islamification.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6954043.ece

That happens to be the guy the Brits confirmed in office after he went to war based on some phony reasons.

People here should cut out that patronizing talk about Germans and "change", on itself "change" is nothing more than a meaningless buzzword. For years Germany was given sage advice by Anglo journalists on how they had to change their economic ways to emulate the supposedly more successful models of the UK, Ireland and even Iceland. Yeah, right, big success story.

As to that survey the results aren't that surprising after the conflict with Islam has been touted as the next big conflict to follow the Cold war for years. On the other hand the spread of Islam in Germany doesn't offer any tangible benefits.

The perceived threat posed by Islam is completely independent of the real situation, which shows Muslim people in a defensive situation in many places, just like here:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6954009.ece

Is it not possible for united nations to take over the governance of some of these government in Iraq, iran saudi arabaia and countries around, abolish all kind of religious malpractices, ban religious school, introduce science in curriculum for children and turn them into welfare state like Germany like they did to Germany after the war.

May be we can see people emerge out of this terror syndrome like Germans emerged as peace loving people after this glooming done on behest of united states

I don't recall Iran starting any wars recently.

However, do you mean that the UN should take over a country full of religious nutjobs, where a bizarre religious series called "left behind" is a multi million seller, where presidents hold "prayer breakfasts" and that starts wars pretty frequently?

They don`t need to start a War. Time will increase their numbers and we (the non Muslims) will be outvoted - its as simple as that.

Sharia law is already present albeit "in the background" in the UK - its only a matter of time before PC crazy UK condones it as a sort of "parallel law" The EU will probably follow suit as they`re a bunch of spineless idiots too.

read here:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259868

The 11 september had nothing to do with Islam - it was an excuse to wage an illegal war and secure the oil assets. Apparently the war has brought peace to Iraq - just last week over 120 people were killed in one explosion - if thats the kind of peace we bring then its no wonder that some of the Muslims hate us.

All this aside - the Germans have Phobias about everything- so whats new?

:-)

I dont believe fully that afghanistan war has anything to do with oil.

there is no oil in Afghanistan my be you are confused..

And attack on terrorist was must to show that democracratic nations are not weak in comparison to religious bigots.

Do you expect united states to behave like a weak country India where terrorist get in the towns kill thousands and get back and country is terrorised, foreigners scared and government just condemns this and asks world to take moral action.

This can happen in Gandhis non-violent country No never for united States.

It is a world leader and must act accordingly.

It has neither made Iraq nor afghanistan its colony.

On the other hand its teaching people the value of democracy though it is bound to fail bacause these are countries of religious zealots.

Though its another fact that why united states choose to attack afghanistan while the terrorism most of gthem were from saudi-arabia.

I didnt read one post on this thread... too tired to argue about how everyone is terrified from Muslims and Islam in General... its too tiring to kep defending ourselves... but for what its worth, i stumbled upon this video on FB , and though I would share it with you guys... pretty much summarizes what I have in mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl418BwX4g0

Our buddy Mohummed from the NJ Chapter is a bit of a mentalist. If you need to wash your feet, fer gods sake, do it at home, not in a public wash room, people wash their hands in there.

wassimk ur video was nice but even if 10% of people held similar views to this guy world would be much better a place to live in.

The video you have put on belongs to some very rich class highly educated guy who never went to a religious school and grew up in a secular democracy.

But this does not constitute even .001% of population.

Even everyday life when we go to work with colleagues, it sometimes looks so frustating to get your ides across because for everything even if it is medical or scientific come a religious justification which dates back to stone age wrapped in colored papers to show that as if religion is scientific too.

Of course we need also to protect youth like the ones in video who can fall in to general hatred which has nothing of their making.

But we need to get a critical mass of something like 40% of these types of youth to bring in lasting peace security and prospperity in the world and if possible to have a world were we have the right to choose our own religion, be aethist and religion is not imposed on us by parents and society because of being born in a family.

And how do you justify the guy talking about some stone age idea book as greatest book on earth.He comes to almost shouting about which you would never find in germany or England or united states.

Have you ever met a european youth who would shout with hell breaking loose that Bible is the greatest book ever to be written on earth, or have you ever met a Buddhist Zealiot who screams that Tripitaka is the greatest book ever written on this planet, or have you ever met a jewis youth hat Torah is the greates book ever on this Globe or have you ever met an indian who proclaims that Ramayan has all the eternal truths and is the only book which has everything or a Sikh proclaiming Granthsahib as the greatest book.

Is this not the biggest evience in end of video of greatest religious intolerance and madness about the psychology which has gone deep down when he was a child of a stone age religion.

Your video either shows at end exactly opposite of what it wanted to convey or it is another schizophrenic indea being imposed on youtube by some religious fanatic under the wrap of American english

And what do you have to say about Hezballah (political group, terrorists). Hez runs Southern Lebanon like a separate country. They have their own army outside of the Lebonese standard army and they do not answer to the Lebonese gov't. The President of Lebanon has no authority over them, or will not/ has not tried to corral them.

The Lebonese President has been calling for truce, talks, and I believe even mentioned returning the soldiers. It is the Hez in the south (on the border of Israel) that is the origin of problem.

I think you've elucidated the problem right there! The Lebanese President is "calling for truce, talks,etc" with domestic terrorists! That's just weak. If I were Hez leadership, I too would tell the incumbent Lebanese gov't to f-off! Violent insurrectionists should be crushed mercilessly....not reasoned with.

I am American who has lived in Germany, has friends there and enjoys visiting. I am also afraid about the spread of Islam. What I fear most is that we never hear Islamics denounce the terror brought on by their fellow fanatics. They sure like to demonstrate when someone draws cartoons about Mohamed.

I will not dignify the comment about washing feet with an answer, its just another stupid comment that took more of my time than it deserves.About the hezbollah thing... its a very complicated matter actually , with the lebanese government not willing to have a war with Israel to free the south when it was occupied, because it could not afford it, hezbollah was doing this for them, and was able eventually to get their arses out of it (May 2000).

The reasn why they did not give in their arms, is that Israel kept making some attacks, and the Lebanese army never was authorized to fight back in self defense... Hezbollah would have to do it instead... so they think they are the rightful protectors of the land...

Once their leader said when he feels that the government is capable of protecting the land, they will put down their weapons. Wther this is true or not, i have no idea... even though i do not fully agree with him, but i understand his point of view, he just wants to play it safe rather than getting the south re-captured.. where there was an attempt in 2006, but they were able to get them out in a couple of weeks.

As for the comments on the video, I beleive he said its the greatest book because he beleives in it, i see many european say the Bible or others are the greatest books in their opinion...

And believe me, i come from a muslim society , most people think like him, but the media never shows us... it shows the opposite... go figure

I wish more and more people become as liberal in thoughts as you are so that acritical mass is created which could be enough to turn the tide against bloodshed and leave to glory of humanity.

In the west, that kind of behaviour isn't acceptable...of course he's going to get strange looks from people if he's washing his feet in a public bathroom. If you want to behave like that, then do so at home, but other people have to use that space and that needs to be respected.

EUMC Report:

British Muslim community responses to London

bombings (7th July 2005)

The reaction by a substantial number of Muslim organisations

was immediate.

Within an hour of the bombings Muslim organisations issued statements

condemning the events. Muslim leaders also stressed that these acts were not

committed by true Muslims. Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General of the Muslim

Council of Britain (MCB), stated that this was not an Islamic problem because

anyone who was a true Muslim believer would not carry out such acts, since they

were contrary to Islamic beliefs. Sayed Aziz Pasha speaking on behalf of The

Union of Muslim Organisations of UK & EIRE offered ?support to the authorities

to eradicate terrorism from British soil?. On 18 July, more than 500 British Muslim

religious leaders issued a fatwa, titled ?Not in Our Name?, in which they condemn

the London bombings as being against the teachings of Islam and express their

determination ?to work with the wider society to remove pockets of all forms of

extremism in Britain?. Islamic Relief Worldwide, a British based international

development charity, made a donation to the London Bombings Relief Charitable

Fund, which was set up by the Mayor of London together with British Red Cross,

to support the victims of the London bombings and their families.

In meetings with Prime Minister Tony Blair, Home Secretary Charles Clarke and

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, senior Muslim leaders declared

their determination to confront violent extremism in their communities and to cooperate

in counter-terrorism efforts.

Among those are the Muslim Council of Britain, Union of Muslim Organisations of UK &

EIRE, Muslim Council of Britain & Churches Together in Britain & Ireland, National Assembly

Against Racism and Muslim Council of Britain, Muslim Association of Britain, The Islamic

Society of Britain, Lancashire Council of Mosques, Council of Indian Muslims UK, Anjuman-e-

Ja?fariyya Shia Ithna Ashari Muslim Community of Watford, Harrow Islamic Centres &

Mosques, Muslim Charity Interpal, Stop Political Terror Coalition, Bristol Muslim Cultural

Society, Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, The Muslim Jewish Forum of North London, UK Islamic

Mission, Welfare Trust International, Liberal Democrat Muslims Forum, Muslim Welfare

House, Da?watul Islam UK & Eire, Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS), AhlulBayt

Islamic Mission UK, Islamic Foundation, The National Association of British Arabs, Kashmiri

and Pakistani Professionals Association, Palestinian General Delegate to the United Kingdom,

International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, East London Mosque and the Islamic Forum Europe

(IFE), Oldham Mosques Council, Friends of Al-Aqsa, Worthing Islamic Society and others.

Report abuse »

As Germany is apparently doing such a bad job integrating Muslims perhaps someone could name a country where the immigration by Muslims is an unmitigated success?

If by "unmitigated success" you mean viral subjugation of society and culture.....France.

Some people on here are indeed very narrow minded. Not every muslim child is born into poverty and has no choice in what to do, the children born to muslim parents aren't forced into any sort of extremist group, that is not something they get into. Most muslim children do grow up and have careers just like a christian child would. When you people think muslim I think you only think about countries like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. You forget the tons of other muslim countries that are out there. Most muslim countries are Secular states. they do not live by shariah law or anything close to it, there are laws which follow certain ethics, and protect human rights.

These schools that teach extremist views are bad indeed. They prey on the poor parents who want to educate their children, so they offer to educate the child, when in fact they are trying to brainwash the child for their own selfish fanatic ideas, and they prey on the poor lost minds of the society, just like how the Neo nazi groups and the kkk groups of America prey on the lost minds of the youths.

And for those who keep asking about why the muslim population does not stand out against these extremist people who claim to be muslims. You choose to ignore all the positives about islam and take the negatives that a few people who claim to be muslims have done and want to judge a religon by that, forgetting the positives of that particular religon. I would get tired of defending myself every time some idiot did some crazy stuff. When the KKK were burning churches and hanging the Afircan-Americans in the US how many of you went out and protested? were all the whites expected to speak out against this? When the IRA were bombing places all over, how many irish people spoke out after each event and spoke out against the IRA. when the Nazi were killing jews how many germans stood up and protested and spoke out publicly against Hitler? Should Barack Obama speak out each time a black person commits a crime? We can always say why don't they protest agains this, but what is that really going to do, that is not the problem. They problem is irradicating these extremists who misrepresent the religon of Islam, these are not Muslims.

Also people need to stop associating culture with religon.

and once again these extremist are NOT muslims, they are the scum of society they destroy buildings that are suppose to be the place of worship for their religon, they kill their fellow muslims, so how they hell can they consider themselves muslims? Some of you come on here and want to talk so much because you have had a muslim associate or you have lived in a "muslim" country for a few months or a few years. and for the person who said they lived in saudi and women would come over to their house and drink wine, if that is true then the women couldn't have been that oppressed as you seem to think if they were able to go to your house and drink wine.

Fact is most muslim women are not oppressed, the ones that are oppressed are just the ones that happen to meet up with the idiot husband, same thing in the states, you have those husbands who are suck pricks, they dont' want their wives talking to anyone, they are so insecure they dont' want their wives working, they control all the money so the wife wont' leave them. kinda like those guys who buy wives from different countries and bring them to the states, wanna talk about oppressing women, take a look at those women and see how they are being oppressed.

@medic82: you and I generally see eye to eye...not this time, I'm afraid.

While I agree with you that:

"Not every muslim child is born into poverty and has no choice in what to do, the children born to muslim parents aren't forced into any sort of extremist group, that is not something they get into. Most Muslim children do grow up and have careers just like a christian child would. When you people think Muslim I think you only think about countries like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. You forget the tons of other Muslim countries that are out there."

...you are in fact talking about an ethnicity. Not a religion. For example, according to my highschool education and religious registration here in Germany, I am a Christian. Do I go to church on Sundays? hell no (sh!t, not even on easter/christmas) nevertheless, I am statistically a Roman Catholic. But I don't connect my religion to my ethnic/cultural identity...you would be hard pressed to find a Muslim that can say the same thing!

@medic82....I think you just clarified the point I was making with Arabic ladies coming around for a wine...that not all Islamic Women are oppressed and that they have their own views on their own lives...

The gist of all that is that Osama bin Laden is not a Muslim.

I disagree.

But all people from religion of osama are not terrorist that is infact true.

That goes true even for Irish terrorists.

Or for lot of germans who helped auslanders even at peak of Nazi violence. Nor all jews are extremists

We also need to protect genuine people irrespective of which religion nationality or community they get birth into

Actually in places made for prayer, or mosque (there is a difference in islam), usually both have a small place to wash your feet and hands properly to start praying. Islam tells you not to provoke criticism or similar feelings by doing things you have a choice of doing differently.

So if a person has to do the whole washing thing does it in a public restroom gets people to start making fun, he should avoid it, if he has another choice... granted.

But on another note, why am i supposed to go to a restroom for men and find 2 gay people making out? not only in Germany, we have this in Lebanon as well, and in many other countries, muslim or not. This pisses me off! I mean I am a person who respects personal space, i do not follow people pointing finger at them or judging them, but stay the hell out of my personal space as well. You want to lick another guy's tongue (just threw up... AGAIN) , do it in your own space... not cornering people in a restroom to have to face it whether they like it or not.

And some other people would start gargling and spitting out all the mucus in the world and little pieces of food ... basically do a whole "spring cleaning" for their mouths...an not cleaning the sink well after them... I mean common, do i have to stare at a sink full of green mucus when i want to wash my hands in a restaurant or any place that has a public toilet?

Just like some muslims bother you with their actions... you bother other human beings (let it be muslim or buddhist or or or..) with your actions... (not you Timmeh... but in general i mean), but keep into consideration what i said in the beginning of my reply though...

They are Muslims. Just because they don't fit with how you define Muslims, doesn't make them non-Muslim. They would probably say the same thing about …[/quote]Why? They are intertwined.So what religion are they then? Are they Christian? Jewish?

Personally, I agree with you...but I don't care if they're gay, straight, whatever....I think there can definitely be too much PDA sometimes and that belongs in private spaces. The rub is though, we live in this very free society which is accepting to this kind of behaviour, so with this freedom that we enjoy, we get aspects which we may not neccessarily agree toThese things are also not acceptable, just because you have seen them occur doesn't make them an acceptable part of society.

Whoever kills another person he is at peace with is a sinner. This is a clear rule in the Kuran. There is no state of war at the moment between muslims and none, there is peace, people are living together... so whoever says that killing others right now is ok and not a sin, is a blasphemer for breaking the rules of islam.if you want to agree or disagree is really your problem, we are muslims, we have the education and we tell you how it really is...

As for destroying mosques and burning kuran... thats pure blasphemy for not showing respect to your own religion... of all things in the world... so this makes them NON MUSLIM ... get it?not really... many cultures are divided into several religions...terrorism has no religion, and no religion accepts terrorism.. hasn't it been said enough already?

my point exactly, just because some muslims invade other people's personal space in a way that provokes criticism (by washing feet in public restrooms), doesn't make it acceptable

@Timmeh, do you consider the catholic preist who gets little boys intoxicated and rapes little boys and has affairs with married women a true christian? would you look at him and say this guy is living the life of a christian and he is following the teachings of Jesus?

Should the rest of the world read about this and watch these things on tv about the preists and associate that with all catholics and say wow this is how the catholics are, they are all a bunch of rapists and child molesters. Would you like to be considered that, because of the actions of a few people? Should you be obligated to stand out and speak out against it each time we read it in the newspapers or watch it on TV?

So Timmeh let me ask you one final question, what religon is the preist who rapes little boys? If you want to say he is christian, then I can conclude by your reasoning that ALL christians are Homosexual child rapists. If you say he is not a christian, then you should also be able to conclude by your reasoning that these extremists are NOT muslims indeed.

@aswd: IRA and Jewish-sympathizers didn't give a sh!t about religion

@wassimk: OK, so 5 times a day you will be within close (walking distance) proximity to a mosque??? If you had ever been to the Middle East you would have seen people praying by the side of the road. (I doubt its much different in urban Western environments....for the truly devout anyway)

@Tiimmmmehhhhh: dude, culture and religion are not ALWAYS intertwined...

@medic82...I would rather be given booze and drugs and raped than blown to smithereens...

@ medic82, those Catholic child molesters are .... Catholics.

And the rest of the Catholic church had better get their s.hit together in dealing with it and eradicating such blatantly horrible behavior. If not, the whole religion deserves all the criticism it gets. Which is not to say all Catholics are child molesters, either.

@medic: no, but you COULD reasonably assert that there is something fundamentally F#cked up about that religion (ie. a twisted-hornyness-inducing vow of celibacy) that needs to be changed.

Eg. You wouldn't ever hear: "hey dude, did you hear about Father Mathews raping the everlivin sh!t out of that one kid last Sunday?" ---- "Oh yeah, I did actually...but I guess its ok, he is a priest after all....c'mon man you've gotta be tolerant!"

since all catholics are not child molesters even though the leaders of the catholic church are the ones molesting the boys, would you then agree that not all muslims are sucidal terrorists bent on destroying people and waging war?

and HDB if they are catholics then why would the church try to get rid of it and eradicate it, I mean if that's how catholics are suppose to be then what's the problem then? The reason they are trying to get rid of that is because that is not how catholics are and that is not the behavior of a catholic.

@Alcala I see that now it's very easy to make a stand and defend the actions of the preist saying that you would rather be drugged, and raped in the butt then be blown up, I dont' want you to compare anything to each other. Each is just as evil as the other and they both do not have a place in soceity.

Those boys that get molested by preists are the ones who end up with so many problems in life, problems in relationships addiction to drugs and alcohol so many psychological problems. that is a life destroyed. I'm sure they are the ones wondering why this is happening to them and that they would rather be dead than go through what they are going through. Would you like your little boy to suffer that kind of torture?

and the people who get killed in a bomb blast, that life is destroyed also.

@HDB I do not consider those preists to be christians at all, because that is not what the bible teaches, how you consider them christians, I have no idea. I know you cannot truely consider someone who does that a true christian, I think you are just saying that because if you admit that they are not christians then you also have to admit that the terrorists aren't muslim.

@HDB in a hetrosexual soceity do you think you would be considered hetrosexual if you were going around sleeping with people of your same sex, and dating people of your same sex? if that person goes around saying that they are hetrosexual, while they are doing all this, The hetrosexual soceity will look at that person and say NO that person is NOT one of us and he or she is NOT hetrosexual.

and on an ending note, Not all terrorists claim to be muslim or from the middle east. The terrorist IRA group are christians, just like not all nazi are from Germans

Medic82- there are two types of people on this planet - the type that are free spirited and open minded and the type that believe that they belong to the true this or true that etc. blah blah blah.

You have achieved nothing more here other than an exellent job of showing to everyone on TT exactly what group you are in.

medic82: yeah, exclusively screwing people of the opposite sex is pretty much universally considered "heterosexual"...promiscuity/frequency/fidelity dynamics don't factor into this at all.....I'm a guy, I like to bang women...that makes me a heterosexual (whether the men who have been happily married to the girl who they lost their virginity to wanna claim me as "one of them" or not ....)

He's not Christian, he's Catholic.

Your Muslim buddies, whether you consider them Muslim or not, think they are Muslim and use the Koran as justification for their actions

You can make excuses until you are blue in the face, but you completely miss the point. Whether or not you consider these people to be Muslims or not is completely irrelevant. They consider themselves to be Muslim and they justify their actions with their scripture.Terrorism doesn't have a religion, but that doesn't mean that terrorists aren't religious and carry out their acts in the name of religion.

I know that you don't think they're Muslims, but answer me this: if I walked up to one of them and asked them which religion they follow, what do you think they'd answer?

@ timmeh, lol I guess catholics aren't christian then? if they are not christians what are they? muslims?

@battyboy, do you need attention?

Catholics certainly aren't Christian, they're Catholic, they follow their own religious dogma.

oh yeah that's right timmeh so its ok for you to say that they are not christians, yet it's not ok for muslims to say that these terrorists who claim to be muslims are not muslims indeed.

Its not a personal opinion here, I was simply stating the fact, just because some people can not understand it the right way, and choose to act upon t…[/quote]depends which terrorists you are addressing, if you ask the IRA , they will not say they are muslims, they will say they are christians, does this mean you are this way as well?

if you ask the Israeli army what religion they are while they attack people in the middle of a truce out of nowhere in an unjustified manner, they say they are jews... does this mean all jews are this way? I can answer that for you... no , i happen to know some jews who are very near and dear to me, and we agree that all this is non sense... so I beleive that there are chrisitians, muslims, and jews out there who ... (it might come as a shock to you... brace yourself) ... not terrorists.

and on the other hand, if you find a person pissing on the bible and holding the cross upside down, and you ask him what religion he is... and he says he is christian and believes that he is following the orders of the bible... should you conclude that all this is the correct Christianity? and believe him just because he said so? and even call him a christian yourself?

Bottom line is, i am not making any excuses for anyone... i am just saying it like it is...

Uh no they won't since they are excommunicated from the Catholic church.

lol @ excommunicated from the catholic church. and have you not seen how muslims have rejected these extremist terrorists who call themselves muslims. I guess people find it easier to label muslims as one, and when it comes to themselves they want to start bringing up different categories.

So the IRA terrorist aren't christians because they have been excommunicated from the catholic church,

Yet the muslims can't say that the extremist terrorist aren't muslims.

sounds kinda two faced doesn't it.

No but kindly show me evidence of same.

There are plenty of Imams preaching hatred and all that infidel stuff - find me a Catholic priest doing the same ...

The rever.. Oh sorry, he's the other side.

Though a quick google on IRA priest terrorist throws up some interesting results.

As I said before, Catholics are Catholic, they follow their own dogma, their bible is not the same as a Christian bible. The only reason you say that the terrorists are not Muslim is because they interpret the scripture differently to you, so you are as much a non-Muslim to them as they are to you.

You again miss the point. They think exactly the same way as you do...they think you are not understanding it the right way and that you are not a true Muslim. Who's interpretation has authority over anyone else's?We were discussing Muslim extremists. So answer the question.I don't know what you're trying to get at here, but if you think that I equate religion with terrorism, you are waaaaaaaaay offSure, God works in mysterious ways, he may have been called to piss on the bible. Religious people do all sorts of ridiculous thing sin the name of their religion....just because it doesn't gel with what your pastor/rabi/imam has taught you doesn't make it any less valid.Like you think it is, you don't have the right to judge how others dictate and act upon scripture.

What? Catholics are Christians. Catholicism is a subset of Christianity.

What's next? Californians are not Americans? Bavarians are not Germans?

@parnell, I'll let you search for that for yourself, becaue if you truely believe that muslims have not spoken out against these terrorist acts then you really have more issues to deal with and you need some professional help, or maybe you can talk to IRA priest/terroist/bomb maker Father James Chesney

Just look at the recent shootings at the base in texas, many muslim leaders came out and spoke against it, I guess when you watching tv you only remember the parts that are pleasing to your views. I think also a few pages back someone posted the response of the Muslim leadership in London after the bombings there.

oh and lets not forget all that crap that rev wright was preaching in some of his sermons. I mean this is a rev preaching at a church, or how bout that one rev from the south that was telling his congregation to pray for the death of our president. I mean what kinda bull is that. so tell me what seperates Him from the terrorist who prays for the same? or is it ok because the one guy is christain, and the other claims to be muslim?

If you're gonna make the claim, and someone calls you on it, you best be prepared to provide the evidence. It's called burden of proof....don't be lazy and make him make your case for you.

That's a huge stretch there chap. Used to be a subset, sure, but they lost their Christianity a long time ago.You got that right....they're Austrians

ok Timmeh seems like you are a bit off as well, so I have provided a link to the "fair and balanced" FOX NEWS http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html Here is just one example of muslims speaking out against these sort of things.

@ Timmeh, how did catholics lose their "christianity" a long time ago?

Timmeh...

You choose to consider cathlocis have lost their christianity .. you choose to see it this way, they choose to see it differently.

Its just like the logic of the terrorists who call themselves muslims and the true concept and principle of islam.

I mean you can not keep saying you choose to see it this way, but they dont... its driving us into an endless loop. I gave you clear rules and laws of Islam, I can give you several proofs as well... you will say that they (who call themselves muslims) wil ldo the same to defend their logic... so no matter what i say, you will say they have another logic, therefor what i am saying is not valid.

Such discussions are endless , and turn to be simply pointless... seriously man.

Sorry but since its reaching brick walls am stepping out... for now at least.

Cheers

WK

As my grandpa told me 30 years ago, Don't discuss politics or religion on TT, it'll get you nowhere. I had no idea what he was talking about at the time, but it appears as though he had a decent bit of insight.

I've been wondering about the "Catholics aren't Christians" thing for a while now.. Isn't that like saying Shias aren't Muslims??..



Of course they're Christians..

Let's keep the facts straight. Austrians are from Bavarian tribe(s). Except the population of the state of Voralberg (West Austria), they belong to the Alemannian tribe.

Only people who can really dispel Germans fear of Islamic spread is the turkish population who due to unknown reasons never likes getting intermingled with German culture.

Exactly, that's the point I'm making about these terrorists, it's completely irrelevant that I consider them to be non-Christian, it's how they identify themselves and that is entirely my point with Muslim terrorists, you can claim that they aren't Muslim all day long, but that doesn't matter as they think they are.

So now that I have admitted that Catholics are Christians, will you admit that these terrorist types are Muslim?

@aswd....thats one of the most sensible things I have seen you write here...well done!

My mother is a Catholic and she identifies herself as a Christian. Same, my sister, my father, all four grandparents, my school teachers, ... wait, I think all my Catholic friends think they are Christian. Are they all wrong?

I will edit the Wikipedia page for you, it is wrong as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Wait, this is getting complicated, even all Popes were wrong as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

Even Pope Benedict XVI is wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/world/europe/11iht-pope.4.6617139.html?_r=1

I kinda feel proud of having a fellow TTer who knows more about Catholicism that the Pope himself.

What about the Pope in the Pizza? Is Father Guido Sarducci a Christian? That dude's gotta be..

Golly gee they REALLY rejected the out of those Muslims uh huh!

From your link :

The mainstream, official voice of Islam in America wasn?t forceful enough in condemning the violence and the acts of terror on 9/11. There was some hesitancy, and there was more concern with hate crimes against Muslims, which I think were relatively low, and there was more focus on that than actually looking at the violence and the hate speech that has been committed in the name of Islam," al-Rahim said.

Perhaps your comprehension is a bit askew. I don't consider Catholics to be Christian, but that's irrelevant, they identify themselves as Christian. It's all down to how one defines Christianity.

Perhaps it would help if you define Christianity then?

...everytime I think this thread has finished...Pas comes up with something new....

Lots of nutter fundie protestants don't consider pope worshippers christians.

I always thought the Christians were the ones that got fed to the lions and nailed to crosses like in Ben Hur and Quo Vadiz.

The Cathoholics came much later when they discovered kiddy fiddling.

Was Jesus a Cathoholic? - I don't think so.

I'm truly interested with what justification though. And the whole 'different book' statement. Surely it's different translations and interpretations of the same book?

....yes the Christians certainly had it tough....

I'm a Catholic...but I haven't even been exposed to kiddy fiddling....so maybe I'm not...now I'm confused?

@Pas....agreed good question...

Certainly "the book" (writing) helped advance our societies...but now so many of our problems are centred around everybody having "a book"....

Here ya go - What is a Christian? Meta-groups, wings, families, denominations, faith groups,

and belief systems



Timmeh's not saying that Catholics aren't Christian, he's saying HE doesn't consider them to be Christian. There's a difference.

The arguments I've heard from fundy baptists is that the addition of the pope and the elevation of mary to that level border on idolatry and a large portion of Catholic dogma has no basis in biblical fact. (edit, biblical fact - lol.. I meant biblical text)

You think they would just focus together on a common enemy, like the Judean Peoples Front.

I took this in a bookshop in South Carolina earlier in the year. I actually laughed out loud when I saw it, which could have got me shot.

Haha awesome.

Sola scriptura

Of course catholics aren't christians. Their worship of Mary, mother of Jesus, makes them Virginians.

Praise be to James Drury?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Jack Chick's take on it. This nutter is always amusing.

"If not then billions of people have been deceived." Says it all really.

related news

Do we really want/need to go down that path?

Off topic.. (mostly..)

isnt this thread dying? lets revive it

In other related news

Perhaps you'd also be kind enough to answer my question regarding the terrorists and in which religion they claim to be acting for.

I did...

i can find a chimp runnign up n down with a bottles of scotch calling himself from any religion.. wont believe him.

and to answer your question in a clear way, they will claim to be muslims..

oh and that link is a whole bucket of crap

my brother and father live in saudi arabia, i lived my entire life in lebanon, i can tell you from the inside... this media studio directed whatever is a load of crap

Holy , this sounds like the best religion EVER...where can I sign up?Right...so it's down to personal interpretation of scripture?

not really... some ppl are simple dumbasses who misinterpret what they read...

there was a lake once with a sign stating "no fishing no swimming"

a dumbass jumped in and started swimming... a cop came up to him and asked him if he saw the sign ... he said "yes it said : no fishing no! ... swimming "

does this mean they are both right?

No, but you simplify and misrepresent the issue massively.

No true Scotsman.

Does anyone think that it could ever dispel the fears in mind of human beings on earth if we all keep on protecting our so called guardians of religion and actually dont see through loopholes.

Western society overall has done quite well in just ignoring these religious leaders.

Does the world have a chance that people from other religions would ever follow same path of just ignoring these stupid religious leaders and turn blind eye to books written by some uneducated people from stne age era instead of calling them best books ever written and glorifying such stupidity of sorts.

Whe we develop intellectually, we should also have a logical mind to see through Farce which was dissolved in our minds when we were kinders.

Here's the crux of the problem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8651043.stm

Muslims make it quite clear that the laws of their god supersede any other law on earth. They're willing to break any law they see fit as long as they don't break ones they think were handed down by Muhammed.

You got the right thread there as it's a nice demonstration of what I was saying on another thread.

Many people think like that, seeing their own personal beliefs and moral code to be above the law - it is hardly exclusive to Muslims. At times through history, christians were persecuted, yet continued to gather and worship, because they believed that their beliefs superseded the laws prohibiting them from doing so.

People that smoke marijuana do so knowing that in most countries it is against the law.

People used to love it in England when the local pub locked the doors at 11PM, and continued to serve alcoholic beverages, in stark contrast with the law.

People drive cars at speeds prohibited by law. They may believe that they are exercising judgment when doing so, perhaps only speeding on an open and empty road - but the fact remains that the law does not provide for "judgment calls", and they are indeed breaking the law.

People in some countries break the law by merely standing by an opinion, and some go to jail for it.

Sometimes humans believe that their personal beliefs are above the law. Fact of humanity, not a stain on Islam.

Don_riina, I think thats the first half-way sane post Ive ever seen from you. Are you ill?