July 30, 2010
Published: 11 Dec 09 10:14 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20091211-23879.html
Nearly three quarters of Germans fear the spread of Islam, according to a survey released on Friday.
DPA/The Local (news@thelocal.de)
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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Your comments about this article:
What exactly do they fear?
maybe its time to stop creating 'us and them' environments
Anyway, seems like a blanket statement to me. If you cut the pie a different way, maybe it'll be like 4/5 Christians fear Islam and 4/5 Muslims have no problems. Take the weighted average: bang you get 3/4 fearing Islam. Surveys were conducted in Berlin, with a Muslim community of 9%. The average in total Germany is 5%.
Just thinking out loud. Too much statistics at work today...
Well, being a Muslim myself, i am kinda scared of that myself. Because, honestly, the religion is not as bad as the media has portrayed it. And such propaganda has caused a scare in the hearts of non-muslims which i the cause of the tension.
Secondly...in this RUSH.. many people will convert to Muslim who dont really understand the religion. It is NOT about blowing up buildings or guns. The maniacs (i'd use worse words if this forum wasnt moderated) called Extremists and terrorists just use the name of the religion to gain support for their own causes or egos. It IS like that. So this blind following of the rush into Islam will defame it even more.
Although it could apply equally to other countries in which I have lived, Germany does seem particularly retiscent to, and inept at, adapting to any form of change.
Spread of Spicy food feared by 3/4 Germans
Spread of Salted butter feared by 3/4 Germans
Spread of ex-pats feared by 3/4 Germans
Spread of Foreign languages feared by.... you get the idea.
This time it's Islam, next time it'll be us atheists and the time after that it will be the bleedin' martians. From my experience, the need to demonise the different is just a part of the teutonic psyche and something which we, as fremden and ausländers deal with if we want to live in this wonderful country.
What exactly do they…
After that, people in the tourism industry all around the world, including Germany, were affected, to name one small group.
Everybody who has since been unable to carry drinks on airplanes, or had to take off their shoes, has been affected by Muslims living among us. Same with those who have just had to sit nervously on airplanes with horrible terror-inspired visions..
Madrid and London were both affected by Muslims living in those countries.
The US, Britain, and now Germany, not to mention a few others, have been affected by having to send off thousands of troops to Afghanistan to deal with out of control Islam run amok. Many have died.
In short, most of western civilization had been affected by Muslims living among us.
Somewhere on the interwebby there must be a graph of swine flu vaccine victims v germans killed by fundamental islamic terrorists. Add a third vector for people killed by/in cars to add a little perspective.
This is exactly what I was referring to, the need among Germans ( and others, but this just happens to be about our hosts )to demonise the different. We, and many other parts of the world are just as affected by the actions of christians (I am assuming the complainees are christians) Most recently among them, child abuse, the holocaust, holocaust denial, witch burinings, mass genocide, spread of HIV and more trivial, shopping on Sunday, Church tax and rampant establishmentarianism holding back the country.
"and they looked from man to pig and from pig to man and already they could see no difference", George Orwell
or if you are religious "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", Jesus
There is plenty of blame on both sides, but the underlying cause is just one thing, religion, all religions.
I was only replying to a statement in which it was suggested that nobody has been at all affected by Muslims living among us. We all have. We don't need to have been blown up on a train or bus either for that to be the case.
These discussions almost always end up at the same place: the "good" Muslims vs. the "bad" Muslims, and the former not doing anything to clamp down on the latter.. And the question as to how many of the latter we should be willing to tolerate in order to protect the former.. Then there is also the broader question as to whether Muslim has any place at all in western civilization. It is undeniably repressive, and frankly at odds with modernity.
The demonizing going on here is more of Germans. And that's the really dumb thing. So what if Germans are hard-headed, stubborn sausage eaters wearing white socks with sandals, waking up early to steal the good spots at the pool?? That might be mildly annoying, but it's not the same as flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up trains and buses in the name of their culturally antagonistic religion(well OK, for the English maybe..) That the people here - especially those living in Germany, seem more inclined to point fingers at Germans than Muslims in all this is what's truly out of whack...
And on the other side people would complain about the immigrants in other ways if they weren't Muslims. After all we live in a country where they had to stick a star on people to differentiate them because they couldn't visually tell the difference. Once the witch hunt starts there is always a way. Watch out those blue eyed children.
Muslims were indeed responsible for 9/11, Lisbon, and Madrid, as well as other daily horrors in the name of their religion all around the world, continuing unabated up to this day.
Furthermore, religion is not just an excuse. Look at the Taliban, and Afghanistan before the war. That was not just some evil guys blowing that Buddhist statue off the mountain-side. That was Islam in full swing.
Concert by Amjad Ali Khan on 12.Dec.Ticket available.
Thought you might be interested....
Wait a minute, hanging out at the pub would make me a bad Muslim, oder? Oh well, guess I can't do anything either way.
Encourage your Muslim community - Muslim leaders - to vehemently denounce each and every act of Islamofacist terrorism. Oddly (or perhaps not so oddly) this rarely, if ever happens.
Encourage your Muslim community to stop preaching hatred in your mosques and madrases.
Encourage your Muslim community to start integrating instead of segregating.
Give me a break.
Non Muslim homes attacked to force residents out of the area
Quote:
The family had their windows smashed at least ten times
http://www.dailymail...ntegration.html
What is a problem, is the demonization of Islam and normal Muslims a la Herr DB with his inherent intolerances and bigotry.
Do you think opinions and comments such as his and in a simlar vein by other posters, make me defend Islam even more staunchly, or come round to his point of view?
And this is from a woman who is not a practicing Muslim, and is as westernised as anyone on this forum, and integrated to boot.
Edit: BattalionBoy just proving my point.
November 2009
Jihad Attacks: 139
Countries: 14
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 529
Critically Injured: 1075
I have never mentioned God to my son. He celebrates Christmas with his German Protestant grandparents, and Eid with his Muslim grandparents only with the understanding that these are special times of the year for family and friends expressing love and appreciation of having each other.
…
Hams...you are not really Muslim then? You are possibly like loads of us here...living free and able to express ourselves in a Christian based country?
This is exactly what I was referring to, the need among Germans ( and others, but this just happens to be about our hosts )to d…
We live in a democracy - that is the point.
And what does it mean to be 'really Muslim' or 'really Christian'? Surely religion is a personal and private matter.
I do not think that there is any difference between the behaviour of humans following the cults of Mao, Stalin, god, allah, yahwe, zeus, flying spaghetti monster, Skaro etc and the followers of dictators and their ilk.
I think that it is human nature to take the easy way out and if someone gives an answer that fits, then it is easier to accept it without question (those who do question are encouraged by various means not to, thus perpetuating the myth) than struggle to answer the question through rational thought and common sense.
Scientists advance science, religion advances religion, religion is no threat to science, however science is a great threat to religion and it is obvious to see whats going to happen and which is more beneficial to everyone?
Try replacing the words science and religion with the word communism and see what interesting things happen.
There is a great deal of excellent and compelling evidence that religion (faith / the ability to believe in the unbelievable) has evolved as part of the human mammal and no-one can deny the instinct to belong, or be part of the herd. The head of whichever group, * is ascribed with almost supernatural powers over life and death and deigned to have the answers to all lifes problems.
So to answer the point about Mao and Stalin, I dont think there is any difference between Maoism, Stalinism, Kim jong Illism, and the worship of supernatural deities as they all follow the god and worshipers format. All are vehemently against other ideals, all have some kind of holy book or mythical figure*, all violently and vigorously defend their ideologies and all are threatened by criticism and rational thought.
TT is not really suitable for a big long ramble on the subject though, so I hope I was concise enough. It would be really interesting to hear some other thoughts on this and if anyone comes up with a good reason for me to do so, then I'll happily change my mind.
*whether real or imaginary (how many of his followers actually saw Mao, or stalin, or Kim jong Ill in person, or heard their teachings directly from them they could just as well have been imaginary and everything came from their "spokespeople" here on earth / politburo. Ok we know from other evidence that they existed, but in 2000 years from now, who knows)
Yippee, another hate thread on Muslim and Islam! Hey, you from the Local: Check this, there's been a lot of other stuff happening today which equals the superb quality of your very own articles. Just copy from them if you absolutely cannot find anything else to report:
Dog falls foul of school inspectors
Fears of Christmas tree shortage
Grave robbers steal former Cyprus president's corpse
Australian police cracks down on alcohol violence
You don't have to thank me.
Very concisely put, do you mind if I use that by the way?
I think I was perhaps over egging the pudding in my efforts to be case specific and cover all bases so it didnt hijack the thread
The Australians must be made to repent.
Tbh, I can't wait for the Irish Hen Night tonight.
*should be* a personal and private matter
As I have written here before - man is a tribal animal. He needs to feel he belongs to a tribe. This explains why the world's biggest tribes (religions) have come about. Tribal survival involved "being wary" of other tribes.
@ HerrDB, Alcala and the other fundamentalist (you think you're not?) "christians". Do you not understand that your brand of fundamentalism is *exactly* the same as the brand you claim to hate?
You may claim "yeah but I don't go about blowing people up!". No, you let others do that for you. If you're that passionate about it - sign up!!
BTW that last comment is not to denegrate the *professional* soldiers of all armies currently operating. They are professionals doing what they are ordered. The orders come from those few at the top who get people like you to believe their fundamentalist crap.
I think all those participating in this thread can have a gluhwein...when a scholar (DB) says the thread is ok...then I as an unqualified layabout can rejoice...actually I'll have to refill my gluhwein
You have to assume, perhaps optimistically, that the spread of Islamic values in the west, where there are relatively large amounts of freedom, education and choice, will lead to a much more relaxed type of Islam practised by people who are open to and in touch with western values - which may provide a bit more balance within the religion as a whole.
I don't think religion in itself is dangerous, just fanaticism, which religion can breed, particularly in places where it is the only voice.
Anyway, that's far too serious for a friday afternoon man. I'm off to the ubahn to stand about with my cock out. Could be a little embarrassing in this weather, but it, I'm game.
Anyway, I think HerrDB made a couple good points:
1) ¦quot;The demonizing going on here is more of Germans. And that's the really dumb thing. So what if Germans are hard-headed, stubborn sausage eaters wearing white socks with sandals, waking up early to steal the good spots at the pool?? That might be mildly annoying, but it's not the same as flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up trains and buses in the name of their culturally antagonistic religion(well OK, for the English maybe..) That the people here - especially those living in Germany, seem more inclined to point fingers at Germans than Muslims in all this is what's truly out of whack...¦quot;
2) ¦quot;Not all Muslims are doing this, obviously. But those who are are Muslims.¦quot;
3) ¦quot;The Jews in WWII were scapegoated in a time of extreme economic difficulty, post WWI upheaval, and frankly irrational European-wide anti-semitism going back centuries and centuries. They were not marching around, burning effigies of Western leaders, killing people - and bragging about it on TV¦quot;
Oh yeah, one more thing that I will just throw out there for arguments-sake: the prophet Mohammed was all about tolerance and living in harmony (while his group was the MINORITY!), but as soon as he was in power he "flipped the script" and started singing a totally different tune (persecution/intolerance/repressiveness). Just think about that in terms of long-term implications for Wester European society/culture...
I'm not one of them, who actualy fear the Islam and some friends ao mine ar Moslems.
But I have to say, that I'm shocked by the testiness of the islamic world:
There is no relation between painting a stupid picture and burning flags or attacking an embassy.
For that I can understand, that people fear hair-trigger dogs.
All of the comments shows, that this is a sensetive topic
What is a problem, is the demonization of Islam and normal Muslims a la Her…
But let's be clear, we live in a western world. People around the world want to live according to western values and standards - democracy, materialistic consumption, peace, etc.. And yes, don't bore me with it..., I know there are flaws in all of it. Like there are flaws in everything - always have been, always will be. But maybe the problem here is that there is an absolutist, idealist nonsense holdover strain from the birth of communism up through the 60's, etc.., whereby the intellectually unimaginative, instead of proposing real world solutions, just want to keep striving for some perfect world that is never going to happen.. Problems in civilization?? Throw it out and start again...
But I digress(attacks on the left just come so naturally.., so sorry if I let one slip...) The point is, the world is dominated by western ideals, standards, and institutions. In the same way that the US is essentially a European country, culturally. And by extension, so is the world. Globalization basically means the globalizing of western everything - culture, production, consumption, entertainment, aspirations, etc etc etc...
Now, the only real challenges to all this are 1.) the anarchists and leftists within our midst who want to tear everything down from the inside out, and 2.) Islam, who wants to destroy it wholesale. In the former case, that is a more or less normal process of cultural development(however cancerous the problem..) In other words, we can deal with that within the system. But with Islam, we are dealing with a fundamentally alien entity, one which is completely at odds with western civ in toto..
So, coming back to your quote hams. I don't see myself as demonizing Islam. I simply recognize Islam, upon rational anaylsis, as a worldview at odds with and which cannot peacefully coincide with the west. Talk of caliphates and the like further suggest an aggressive expansionist tendency, with further implications for conflict btw. Against that background we are now dealing with an islamiziation of Europe, which is basically what this thread is about. I don't demonize my enemy in the shallow, Psych 101 "demonizing the other" way you suggest. MUSLIMS were guilty of 9/11, Madrid, and London. They did all that IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, the same way they continue to blow up innocent people - daily.. It's only natural that Islam then be "demonized" to a certain extent. But yeah, it's like "demonizing" poisonous snakes. If I don't want to be around poisonous snakes, that makes me according to you and the left "inherently bigoted and intolerant"... All I said at the beginning of this thread was, look, these snakes have indeed bitten people among us, contrary to what was being implied. I was just putting the facts back at the forefront, as it was being attempted to obscure them with a PC haze.
So anyhow, I don't see what I'm doing as "demonizing". I'm just recognizing the enemy, however un-PC it is to say it.
You, btw, not being Muslim, would not be one I guess.. Or maybe you are, because of your family. In a pinch, I guess it would come down to your individualism vs. your family and their religion. Blood is thicker than water, as they say.., so who knows....
Very concisely put, do you mind if I use that by the way?
I think I was perhaps over egging the pudding…
The bit I'm trying to work out is whether the people who end up in these positions start of bad and accumulate power to feed their own agendas or the very act of having total power corrupts people and turns them evil. I suspect it's a bit of both. Sociopaths seem to be born but is it safe to assume all the evil dictators in history were born sociopaths?
I am not sure whether Godwins law applies to those adopting the traits of its subject person.
'The enemy'... need I say more as regards to demonization.
As for your grasp of the 'facts', it's tentative to say the least.
But as the Don said, it's Friday, supposedly my day of rest, so I shall put that into effect with regards to this thread.
Alcala - Irish Hen Night heading for drinks, dinner and then who knows what. But as we're all classy chicks, it'll be a low key and tasteful affair.
Tell that to the starving millions in Africa.
> People around the world want to live according to western values and standards
No . People like you just think they should. Just like al Qaeda and the Taliban think we should all live like them. See the parallel?
> democracy
only when you actually *have* a voice - when the voting machines work properly
> materialistic consumption
Such as owning a big house on a sub-prime mortgage, or demanding a huge bonus for driving a bank into the dust
>peace
?? do you read what you write?
Unlike for some, such an issue is not dependent on religion, but humanity regardless of creed, race or any other prejudicial determinant.
Something which we already know that HerrDB refutes.
May be United nations should come up with a plan to save the children all over the world from religious education so that when they grow up they have the choice to choose their religion or to be aethist if so they like.
Islamic education is proving dangerous to the world peace as a whole because these so called islamist schools are breeding ground of putative terrorists.
and instead of fighting and killing terrorists right way would be to stop the brain wash which they undergo as children which develops them into terrorists.
But let's not just corner one religion. I think all religious schools should be banned. I was sent to a christian school myself - maybe that's why I am now a humanist.
Removing the religious indoctrination from children would go a long way to stopping the fundamentalism we see (even on this forum) on both sides of the conflict in Afghanistan and in many other places around the world.
EVERY post i have ever posted lambasting communist / leftie wannabees have been removed. every single one. i don't know why. maybe this site is controlled and guided by left winger dingers. but people can offend all and sundry on here except the left.
If HDB writes
"But I digress(attacks on the left just come so naturally.., so sorry if I let one slip..."
then to use logic he understands:
If you're not left wing, you're right wing.
Now look where *that* got the world ....
Secondly, this keeps coming back to Psych 101 and all this demonization talk. There is such a thing as a legitimate enemy, contrary to leftist mumbo-jumbo.
Hyenas and lions are enemies. It's not because they have these ignorant demonizing of the "other" concepts in their head, but because of reality. That's how it works. Competition, conflict, etc.
And precisely that is what is so maddening to me about the left. These people speak as if human reality is on some rarified plane of abstract social (or psychological) theory as discussed in feel-good undergraduate coffee-shop discussions.
But back here down in the real world, Muslims are brutally murdering people every day. In the name of Islam. All I've been doing here is making that clear, against the incessant waves of obfuscating PC mendaciousness.
And that being the case, such poll results as are the basis of this thread, are completely understandable.
"MUSLIMS were guilty of 9/11"
I don't think any of the companies in the world capable of controlled demolition on this scale reside in muslim majority countries. Look very hard at who is giving you your fundemantalism before you accept it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032
Muslims have not created a thing beneficial to Western society, and don't t give me any crap about the alphabet or counting system. What have they done for us in the last 2,000 years? Nothing - just like the Greeks.
And actually, the majority of my languages are of European origin i.e. 3 of 4.
Now back to my Becks.
Everyone tolerated Islam until Islam attacked them, but that is not an argument against multiculturalism or multiple religions living amongst each other. It is only sad for Islamic people they bring these perceptions based on fact on themselves which only holds them down and keeps them repressed across the world. I'm sure there are decent ones in the world in that religion.
One thing that annoys me about Islam or the terrorists is that they are just as hypocritical as anyone else or any other religion. For example, the 9/11 terrorists of the Hamburg cell visited Wacko's strip club on many occasions. Ironic that it was called Wacko's, but in the name of religion, jihad, holy war, whatever, etc., they found it necessary to look at women without headscarves, veils, niqab, whatever, etc. before their mass killing of thousands of innocent people. Doesn't the strip club violate the ethics of Islam? Just another example of how they, like all people of any religion, contradict themselves in their actions. As my favorite professor once told his students, "we are what we do, not what we say."
I've been cautiously self-debating (for like an hour) on how best to respond to post#104...
Here's the thing: think about the casualty/mortality radius that would result from the lateral collapse of a skyscraper in downtown Manhattan....then think about the contingency-planning prudence of (secretly) including certain ¦quot;requirements¦quot; in the building codes of anything above xxx.x feet... ;-)
all I'm saying is just think about it a little...
@Schnukel: look up Takfir methodology
Only solution seems to be banning the religions all together.
Unlike europe where people have choice to be atheist or have very little religion, its equivalent to commiting a murder if you dont endorse religion in which you are born in several parts of the world.
And I think this is one major reason of supremacy of western civilisation over all of eastern,asian and african world that they had the courage to speak against their religious leadeers or just to ignore them altogether.
Now I'm not sure what the English word for Suggestivfrage is, but...
And second is concept of religious war where you force on poit of weapons your religion on top of others like it was done in countries like India, Indonesia and gave birth to Islamic countries like Pakistan,Bangladesh which ultimately became breeding grounds of terrorism and hatred for the whole world.
"We want Sharia Law" - Bog off. The laws of this country are secular - if you live here, you comply or else you're a common criminal. You want "Honour Killings", stoning to death, public beheadings, amputations, forced marriages (etc) - sod off and live somewhere else in the Stone Age. Out! Now!
"We must have Kosher/Halal law" - if you want to publically torture animals, sod off and go somewhere else - now!
"Christ abhors poofdahs and lesbians, it says so in the Gospel According to Apostle Bloggs Book IV verse III" - off, now!.
That way, the primacy of decency and tolerance asserts itself against the filth of organised, fundamentalist religion of whatever colour.
At the same time, the State needs to guard itself against other fundamentalist tendencies, i.e. that "The Market" is some kind of God which, miraculously, works in the best interests of all. That's Marxist Class Warfare in reverse.
Truely education is the key to understanding a lot of things and if some of you aren't smart enough to see some of the simple things in life then you have some deep issues.
Hams can you hand me a becks please i'm a bit thirsty over here myself.
Starting point should be to denounce the religion all together as it seems to be sole source of evil that is eating away the humanity itself.
It takes people away from all together to such an extreme that they can not even wine and dine together.
Dont eat this that is against religion
dont drink this it is against religion
dont take sun bath this is against religion
dont go to sea-shore bare its against religion.
It is really hard to comprehend this.
or anything of so called religion which boggles mind to such an extent that they really drift apart.
It is so sad that while in west people dont care abouth what catholic church preaches, and give a damn to it,you see just the opposite in eastern culture.
Even the highest educated docters engineers and scientist would be seen fobidding themselves in these dos and donts preached by someone illiterate with long beard who know nothing of science or humanism.
It will be a coomon sight to see people at highest posts bending before these stupid religious preachers.
The only solution is to take the humanity away from this religious burden which is eating like white ants into very fabric of our humanity.
At least the core years when a childs brain is being formed should be taken away from hate breeding grounds which we call religion.
All religion for children before they reach the age of 18 must be banned like we ban tobacco or alcohol so that a grown up adult is able to choos for itslef whether it wants any kind of STUPID Religion that can turn him into and blood thirsty demon spreading fanaticsm
So it seems people are helpless and need help and the only help we can render is to take all tyhe children away from religion.
Half of the worlds problems would be solved automatically as most of them would never believe in any kind of stupid ideas of religious wars, or dos and donts or making for their own mothers and sisters a hell on htis earth with so many taboos and hatred.
Lets give humanity a chance and take away the children from the hands of religion all together
As for your later post about not being able to eat this, drink that, go to the beach etc.
Jews are also not meant to eat pork.
Hindus are not meant to eat beef.
Victorians didn't allow ladies to swim in bikinis but fully clothed.
Therefore, if we talk of Islam, one needs to talk of reformation. However, when there is no hiearchy or formal church, and the Quran is the word of God and there is no leeway for the passage of time and evolution - that's when the trouble starts.
Also the fact that the majority of Muslim countries are not industrialised but Third World and at best Developing. Therefore, sending one's child to a Madrasa for education, literacy, food and shelter (and admittedly in some, fanaticism) is understandable when a parent trying to feed many mouths under intolerable circumstances.
Everything is perspective and neither you nor I are qualified to discuss these issues apart from agreeing that education and the eradication of poverty are the first steps in stopping such fundamentalism.
Burkah takes away the right to be a equal human like a male.
a burkah is used often to turn women to prostitution all across asia.
a burkah is what makes achild born from the female sham all female.
and this burkah takes away the very right to go to a religious place along with males
and this very burkah has been the reasons of rivers of floods of bloods since centuries.
and this is very Burkah which takes people away from each other, makes people look different, spreads hate and causes 9/11.
Its this Burkah which leads to killing of so many innocents across the world
and this is very Burkah which divides humanity
Replace 'burkah' with intolerance and you may have a cogent argument.
Goodnight all - wishing you a peaceful weekend.
Can you name me one Islamic restaurent which can serve pork or wine.
Why to keep humanity away from each other on basis of what you can eat drink or wear or why to forbid your own mothers and sisters with somany dos and donts upto the extent of cutting away the sexual organs of the female child so as to make them feel unwanted and reduce their apetite for sex.
Are we not doing a great wound on humanity by letting this blockheaded religious leader cut away the sex organ of female child which constitutes 50% of population.
We never see people protest against such grave cruality.
Even the vast majoriy settled for years in europe and united staes never speaks up a single word.
A single act inAfghanistan causes them to come with big flags of protest all-over the world why not such grave injustice against their own sisters and wives and mother s which takes them far far away than a european women which has the abilty and all rights in the world to be fiercely independent as compared to mutiliated Burkah cad females who have lost all self confidence under worst kind of slavery from their own men
Unlike european women who appear so confident, you can see Burkah clad womens shaking in their feet and noway match to their european counterparts.
Womens are tortured in marriages,divorce on basis of separte set of religious laws which gives men to have liberty to marry 4 women but if a wmen wants a divorce, she is foced into prostitution.
And sad is united nations even cand do anything with this foolish laws which takes us to stone age
This crusade launched by Bush can only end when every single citizen is killed because they will alll lay down and fight because thats what there brains have been brainwashed by some stone age writings about religious wars since they were born.
Ans what happens to childrens even in this crusade you end up killing all adults.
there brains are still being brainwashed by dirty Mullahs in mosque and religious schools who indulge n all kind of wrongful acts and shield behind religion because they sit pretty sure that they have distorted the very thought process in child which distinguishes us a human being-thats our ability to think independendly as individual.
Fighting the type of war which Bush launched can never benefit the whole world-may be it can protect the asia subcontinent countries like Japan, India or China being swept away before the force of religious Bigots and religious fundamentalists who have no end to cruelity they can impose on their own mothers daughters and sisters whom they have begotten themselves.
Even the most learned of them even the ones which have gone to law school or medical school are still so blinded by this stupid stone age religion that they can not see what they are doing to their own society
They can even understand how science has process of evolution and living beings evolve by themselves from lower to higher forms.
How can they understand science or medicine anyways when they are being guided by some schizophrenic writings which they keep on intrepreting in modern day and trying to fit in scinece into some stone age verses.
Just try to see fro eye of a person from asia how perfect the europen women have evolved into.
They never istill fears in minds of children nor some kind of religious poison which brings the children turned adults to graves.
Most of the women from this schizophrenised religious world dont have even the freedom to take a shower while the men are around, or are you crzy and you wish to take all of europe out of this scientific world to some stone age demonic world where a stupid crazy bearded stone age man raise voice like a animal early in morning and mystifies the crazy population an believer into the so called religious wars
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,666448,00.html
What struck me was, this is, among other things..., a religion vs. secularism issue. Europe fought for centuries to get out of the grip of irrational religion. But what's happening now is, a radically intolerant religion like Islam is indeed undeniably trying to spread throughout Europe. And the PC movement, so full of hipocrisy.., treats it with kid gloves. I think this aspect of the issue is underappreciated(not by Muslim spokespeople though, who know exactly what buttons to push..) These kinds of PC double-standards are what drive people further to the right. Not just minarets and burqas, but the hypocrisy of living in a PC-media-drenched supposedly secular state(OK, maybe nominally, but yes, Christianity, being so deeply ingrained here from centuries of history, automatically has a different status.. This is in any event undeniable. Architecture, to name one minor - or not so minor - example..), but one where PC makes irrational exceptions for immigrant Muslims. With no thought about what is sensible for Europe. No, for PC it's about elevating immigrants and their plight to some absurd height, sometimes beyond the rest of society..(few years back I remember reading about some asylum seekers in Britain having better health benefits than some British citizens- some of whom had worked and paid for the system..)
Nobody, myself included, has a problem I think with Muslim doctors and engineers et al living in Europe, doing their thing, but keeping their religion a completely private affair. But the building of big mosques and minarets and the wearing of burqas and the separate treatment for Muslim girls in swimming classes and the like are no longer private affairs. Insisting on them is to insist on non-integration into European culture, period. Now, it's clear Muslims would demand these things. But when the left does it, that's when things get polarized. And understandably so.
Back to religion vs. secularism... Nowhere do I see PC spokespeople pointing out that Islam is an intolerant, irrational religion, after all. No, that's not what it's about for Guardian-types(the Guardian is basically the journalistic minaret for espousing PC views across Europe..) For PC-ness, it's about oppression of immigrants, however preposterous their religion or creeds. And this kind of PC hokum is what will continue to drive people furhter and further to the right, right or wrong....
I for one wouldn't have a problem if we had to step on some European Christian toes and realign the discussion along secular vs. relgious lines. I honestly think though that to do so would rattle the left, because it'd also require stepping on the toes of these poor innocent immigrants...
Which perfectly illustrates the typical hipocrisy of the left: there's noone the left like to hate more than religious conservatives. BUT, they are the vanguard in supporting the interests of radical Islam in Europe.
Therein lies the rub...
Do the european women seek support.
And your idea of being wife number 4 of some schizophrenic white clothe robed long bearded mullah is abit too crazy.
Perhaps you are attracted by the idea of possessing 4 womens at atime which you can not have as noone even can com prehend for such crazy ideas.
And I am pretty sure no women could be happy living with 3 other women for his men.
if she is, it is again the religious stone age schizohrenic ideas written by some comic fool whom they glorifywith lot of wisdom.For once your brains are whitwashed with such lunatic and fanatic religious ideas as child, you can also be happy being the 100th women of some long bearded dirty men shouting from top of a builiding on microphone early in morning
Imagine the cruelities metted out to children in this islamic world.
What would happen if tomorrow you happen to be born as a child in islamic world.
You have no way out but to turn into some blood thirsty terrorist because thats what you have been taught to be since you were a child and all the glory lies in fighting the religious wars.
Cant you think from the point of childrens right to inherit the world free of theses schizophrenic lunatic thoughts.
Dont the children all across the globe should have the right to choose what they want to think independently.
How do you think os sparing europe and keeping it aloof in globalised world when it would one day be sorrounded by religious fanatics.
For sure it would cause havoc.
No amount of laws would be able to prevent that religious onslaught in this globalised world.
and than one day remain pretty sure that these blood thirsty lunatics would take control of all of europe and turn your womens into Burkah clad fanatics and than forget of all kinds of freedoms that you cherish in this democratic society- for than there will be no freedom.
Imagine a bearded man from some top building of Marienplatz over a mike would proclaim all womens in Germany to cover their faces with black death or they would either be killed or turned into prostitutes or their faces disfigured by acid- and this they would proclaim on basis of writing of some stone aged men whom they would call instructions from some god
It may not be possible tr brake away already existing minarets with blood thirsty lunatics with white washed brains, but of course in our own country we should have right to forbid any such stupid constructions
Catholic and protestant marriages are a common norm and if church decides not to baptise people dont care anymore.
So who cares for the link between the church and state and anyways in coming decade the new european generation is slowly doing away with any kind of religion all together.
people are becoming more and more scientifically inclined and give a foot to what anyone connected with religion thinks of their attitude.
Can you imagine such things happening around afghanistan, Iraq or iran or Turkey.
if that ever happens world would be a very happy place to live in.
Even if that happens in Turkey, at least europe can breathe a sigh of relief.
While most people seem to realize that the terrorists who claim to be Muslims are, in fact, extremists, the Muslim community doesn't seem terribly interested in disclaiming them. Now that may be simply that the "media" doesn't report the "other side" but in the days following 9-11, I saw little from either the religious or political leaders from Islam saying "This isn't our religion" or words to that effect.
It may well be true that what we continually see and hear about Islam is only that extreme version, and it is equally true that there have been, and still are, extremists and terrorists from other religions (witness the years of such things in Ireland as only one example) but the lack of public commentary from the "leaders" of this religion help fuel the feeling that all of Islam is in on things.
This may be a lack of reporting, but I have to feel that the result is a society strongly biased and afraid of people who simply worship differently. if that's true, then it is truly sad.
Why do you think those in power are clamping down. The islamic world has more to 'fear' from westernisation than we have to worry about islamification.
That happens to be the guy the Brits confirmed in office after he went to war based on some phony reasons.
People here should cut out that patronizing talk about Germans and "change", on itself "change" is nothing more than a meaningless buzzword. For years Germany was given sage advice by Anglo journalists on how they had to change their economic ways to emulate the supposedly more successful models of the UK, Ireland and even Iceland. Yeah, right, big success story.
As to that survey the results aren't that surprising after the conflict with Islam has been touted as the next big conflict to follow the Cold war for years. On the other hand the spread of Islam in Germany doesn't offer any tangible benefits.
The perceived threat posed by Islam is completely independent of the real situation, which shows Muslim people in a defensive situation in many places, just like here:
May be we can see people emerge out of this terror syndrome like Germans emerged as peace loving people after this glooming done on behest of united states
However, do you mean that the UN should take over a country full of religious nutjobs, where a bizarre religious series called "left behind" is a multi million seller, where presidents hold "prayer breakfasts" and that starts wars pretty frequently?
Sharia law is already present albeit "in the background" in the UK - its only a matter of time before PC crazy UK condones it as a sort of "parallel law" The EU will probably follow suit as they`re a bunch of spineless idiots too.
read here:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259868
The 11 september had nothing to do with Islam - it was an excuse to wage an illegal war and secure the oil assets. Apparently the war has brought peace to Iraq - just last week over 120 people were killed in one explosion - if thats the kind of peace we bring then its no wonder that some of the Muslims hate us.
All this aside - the Germans have Phobias about everything- so whats new?
:-)
there is no oil in Afghanistan my be you are confused..
And attack on terrorist was must to show that democracratic nations are not weak in comparison to religious bigots.
Do you expect united states to behave like a weak country India where terrorist get in the towns kill thousands and get back and country is terrorised, foreigners scared and government just condemns this and asks world to take moral action.
This can happen in Gandhis non-violent country No never for united States.
It is a world leader and must act accordingly.
It has neither made Iraq nor afghanistan its colony.
On the other hand its teaching people the value of democracy though it is bound to fail bacause these are countries of religious zealots.
Though its another fact that why united states choose to attack afghanistan while the terrorism most of gthem were from saudi-arabia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl418BwX4g0
The video you have put on belongs to some very rich class highly educated guy who never went to a religious school and grew up in a secular democracy.
But this does not constitute even .001% of population.
Even everyday life when we go to work with colleagues, it sometimes looks so frustating to get your ides across because for everything even if it is medical or scientific come a religious justification which dates back to stone age wrapped in colored papers to show that as if religion is scientific too.
Of course we need also to protect youth like the ones in video who can fall in to general hatred which has nothing of their making.
But we need to get a critical mass of something like 40% of these types of youth to bring in lasting peace security and prospperity in the world and if possible to have a world were we have the right to choose our own religion, be aethist and religion is not imposed on us by parents and society because of being born in a family.
Have you ever met a european youth who would shout with hell breaking loose that Bible is the greatest book ever to be written on earth, or have you ever met a Buddhist Zealiot who screams that Tripitaka is the greatest book ever written on this planet, or have you ever met a jewis youth hat Torah is the greates book ever on this Globe or have you ever met an indian who proclaims that Ramayan has all the eternal truths and is the only book which has everything or a Sikh proclaiming Granthsahib as the greatest book.
Is this not the biggest evience in end of video of greatest religious intolerance and madness about the psychology which has gone deep down when he was a child of a stone age religion.
Your video either shows at end exactly opposite of what it wanted to convey or it is another schizophrenic indea being imposed on youtube by some religious fanatic under the wrap of American english
The Lebonese President has been calling for truce, talks, and I believe even mentioned returning the soldiers. It is the Hez in the south (on the border of Israel) that is the origin of problem.
The reasn why they did not give in their arms, is that Israel kept making some attacks, and the Lebanese army never was authorized to fight back in self defense... Hezbollah would have to do it instead... so they think they are the rightful protectors of the land...
Once their leader said when he feels that the government is capable of protecting the land, they will put down their weapons. Wther this is true or not, i have no idea... even though i do not fully agree with him, but i understand his point of view, he just wants to play it safe rather than getting the south re-captured.. where there was an attempt in 2006, but they were able to get them out in a couple of weeks.
As for the comments on the video, I beleive he said its the greatest book because he beleives in it, i see many european say the Bible or others are the greatest books in their opinion...
And believe me, i come from a muslim society , most people think like him, but the media never shows us... it shows the opposite... go figure
British Muslim community responses to London
bombings (7th July 2005)
The reaction by a substantial number of Muslim organisations
Within an hour of the bombings Muslim organisations issued statements
condemning the events. Muslim leaders also stressed that these acts were not
committed by true Muslims. Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General of the Muslim
Council of Britain (MCB), stated that this was not an Islamic problem because
anyone who was a true Muslim believer would not carry out such acts, since they
were contrary to Islamic beliefs. Sayed Aziz Pasha speaking on behalf of The
Union of Muslim Organisations of UK & EIRE offered ?support to the authorities
to eradicate terrorism from British soil?. On 18 July, more than 500 British Muslim
religious leaders issued a fatwa, titled ?Not in Our Name?, in which they condemn
the London bombings as being against the teachings of Islam and express their
determination ?to work with the wider society to remove pockets of all forms of
extremism in Britain?. Islamic Relief Worldwide, a British based international
development charity, made a donation to the London Bombings Relief Charitable
Fund, which was set up by the Mayor of London together with British Red Cross,
to support the victims of the London bombings and their families.
In meetings with Prime Minister Tony Blair, Home Secretary Charles Clarke and
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, senior Muslim leaders declared
their determination to confront violent extremism in their communities and to cooperate
in counter-terrorism efforts.
EIRE, Muslim Council of Britain & Churches Together in Britain & Ireland, National Assembly
Against Racism and Muslim Council of Britain, Muslim Association of Britain, The Islamic
Society of Britain, Lancashire Council of Mosques, Council of Indian Muslims UK, Anjuman-e-
Ja?fariyya Shia Ithna Ashari Muslim Community of Watford, Harrow Islamic Centres &
Mosques, Muslim Charity Interpal, Stop Political Terror Coalition, Bristol Muslim Cultural
Society, Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, The Muslim Jewish Forum of North London, UK Islamic
Mission, Welfare Trust International, Liberal Democrat Muslims Forum, Muslim Welfare
House, Da?watul Islam UK & Eire, Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS), AhlulBayt
Islamic Mission UK, Islamic Foundation, The National Association of British Arabs, Kashmiri
and Pakistani Professionals Association, Palestinian General Delegate to the United Kingdom,
International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, East London Mosque and the Islamic Forum Europe
(IFE), Oldham Mosques Council, Friends of Al-Aqsa, Worthing Islamic Society and others.
These schools that teach extremist views are bad indeed. They prey on the poor parents who want to educate their children, so they offer to educate the child, when in fact they are trying to brainwash the child for their own selfish fanatic ideas, and they prey on the poor lost minds of the society, just like how the Neo nazi groups and the kkk groups of America prey on the lost minds of the youths.
And for those who keep asking about why the muslim population does not stand out against these extremist people who claim to be muslims. You choose to ignore all the positives about islam and take the negatives that a few people who claim to be muslims have done and want to judge a religon by that, forgetting the positives of that particular religon. I would get tired of defending myself every time some idiot did some crazy stuff. When the KKK were burning churches and hanging the Afircan-Americans in the US how many of you went out and protested? were all the whites expected to speak out against this? When the IRA were bombing places all over, how many irish people spoke out after each event and spoke out against the IRA. when the Nazi were killing jews how many germans stood up and protested and spoke out publicly against Hitler? Should Barack Obama speak out each time a black person commits a crime? We can always say why don't they protest agains this, but what is that really going to do, that is not the problem. They problem is irradicating these extremists who misrepresent the religon of Islam, these are not Muslims.
Also people need to stop associating culture with religon.
and once again these extremist are NOT muslims, they are the scum of society they destroy buildings that are suppose to be the place of worship for their religon, they kill their fellow muslims, so how they hell can they consider themselves muslims? Some of you come on here and want to talk so much because you have had a muslim associate or you have lived in a "muslim" country for a few months or a few years. and for the person who said they lived in saudi and women would come over to their house and drink wine, if that is true then the women couldn't have been that oppressed as you seem to think if they were able to go to your house and drink wine.
Fact is most muslim women are not oppressed, the ones that are oppressed are just the ones that happen to meet up with the idiot husband, same thing in the states, you have those husbands who are suck pricks, they dont' want their wives talking to anyone, they are so insecure they dont' want their wives working, they control all the money so the wife wont' leave them. kinda like those guys who buy wives from different countries and bring them to the states, wanna talk about oppressing women, take a look at those women and see how they are being oppressed.
While I agree with you that:
"Not every muslim child is born into poverty and has no choice in what to do, the children born to muslim parents aren't forced into any sort of extremist group, that is not something they get into. Most Muslim children do grow up and have careers just like a christian child would. When you people think Muslim I think you only think about countries like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. You forget the tons of other Muslim countries that are out there."
...you are in fact talking about an ethnicity. Not a religion. For example, according to my highschool education and religious registration here in Germany, I am a Christian. Do I go to church on Sundays? hell no (sh!t, not even on easter/christmas) nevertheless, I am statistically a Roman Catholic. But I don't connect my religion to my ethnic/cultural identity...you would be hard pressed to find a Muslim that can say the same thing!
I disagree.
That goes true even for Irish terrorists.
Or for lot of germans who helped auslanders even at peak of Nazi violence. Nor all jews are extremists
We also need to protect genuine people irrespective of which religion nationality or community they get birth into
So if a person has to do the whole washing thing does it in a public restroom gets people to start making fun, he should avoid it, if he has another choice... granted.
But on another note, why am i supposed to go to a restroom for men and find 2 gay people making out? not only in Germany, we have this in Lebanon as well, and in many other countries, muslim or not. This pisses me off! I mean I am a person who respects personal space, i do not follow people pointing finger at them or judging them, but stay the hell out of my personal space as well. You want to lick another guy's tongue (just threw up... AGAIN) , do it in your own space... not cornering people in a restroom to have to face it whether they like it or not.
And some other people would start gargling and spitting out all the mucus in the world and little pieces of food ... basically do a whole "spring cleaning" for their mouths...an not cleaning the sink well after them... I mean common, do i have to stare at a sink full of green mucus when i want to wash my hands in a restaurant or any place that has a public toilet?
Just like some muslims bother you with their actions... you bother other human beings (let it be muslim or buddhist or or or..) with your actions... (not you Timmeh... but in general i mean), but keep into consideration what i said in the beginning of my reply though...
As for destroying mosques and burning kuran... thats pure blasphemy for not showing respect to your own religion... of all things in the world... so this makes them NON MUSLIM ... get it?
Why? They are intertwined.
So what religion are they then? Are they Christian? Jewish?
Should the rest of the world read about this and watch these things on tv about the preists and associate that with all catholics and say wow this is how the catholics are, they are all a bunch of rapists and child molesters. Would you like to be considered that, because of the actions of a few people? Should you be obligated to stand out and speak out against it each time we read it in the newspapers or watch it on TV?
So Timmeh let me ask you one final question, what religon is the preist who rapes little boys? If you want to say he is christian, then I can conclude by your reasoning that ALL christians are Homosexual child rapists. If you say he is not a christian, then you should also be able to conclude by your reasoning that these extremists are NOT muslims indeed.
@wassimk: OK, so 5 times a day you will be within close (walking distance) proximity to a mosque??? If you had ever been to the Middle East you would have seen people praying by the side of the road. (I doubt its much different in urban Western environments....for the truly devout anyway)
@Tiimmmmehhhhh: dude, culture and religion are not ALWAYS intertwined...
And the rest of the Catholic church had better get their s.hit together in dealing with it and eradicating such blatantly horrible behavior. If not, the whole religion deserves all the criticism it gets. Which is not to say all Catholics are child molesters, either.
Eg. You wouldn't ever hear: "hey dude, did you hear about Father Mathews raping the everlivin sh!t out of that one kid last Sunday?" ---- "Oh yeah, I did actually...but I guess its ok, he is a priest after all....c'mon man you've gotta be tolerant!"
and HDB if they are catholics then why would the church try to get rid of it and eradicate it, I mean if that's how catholics are suppose to be then what's the problem then? The reason they are trying to get rid of that is because that is not how catholics are and that is not the behavior of a catholic.
@Alcala I see that now it's very easy to make a stand and defend the actions of the preist saying that you would rather be drugged, and raped in the butt then be blown up, I dont' want you to compare anything to each other. Each is just as evil as the other and they both do not have a place in soceity.
Those boys that get molested by preists are the ones who end up with so many problems in life, problems in relationships addiction to drugs and alcohol so many psychological problems. that is a life destroyed. I'm sure they are the ones wondering why this is happening to them and that they would rather be dead than go through what they are going through. Would you like your little boy to suffer that kind of torture?
and the people who get killed in a bomb blast, that life is destroyed also.
@HDB I do not consider those preists to be christians at all, because that is not what the bible teaches, how you consider them christians, I have no idea. I know you cannot truely consider someone who does that a true christian, I think you are just saying that because if you admit that they are not christians then you also have to admit that the terrorists aren't muslim.
@HDB in a hetrosexual soceity do you think you would be considered hetrosexual if you were going around sleeping with people of your same sex, and dating people of your same sex? if that person goes around saying that they are hetrosexual, while they are doing all this, The hetrosexual soceity will look at that person and say NO that person is NOT one of us and he or she is NOT hetrosexual.
and on an ending note, Not all terrorists claim to be muslim or from the middle east. The terrorist IRA group are christians, just like not all nazi are from Germans
You have achieved nothing more here other than an exellent job of showing to everyone on TT exactly what group you are in.
Your Muslim buddies, whether you consider them Muslim or not, think they are Muslim and use the Koran as justification for their actions
I know that you don't think they're Muslims, but answer me this: if I walked up to one of them and asked them which religion they follow, what do you think they'd answer?
@battyboy, do you need attention?
if you ask the Israeli army what religion they are while they attack people in the middle of a truce out of nowhere in an unjustified manner, they say they are jews... does this mean all jews are this way? I can answer that for you... no , i happen to know some jews who are very near and dear to me, and we agree that all this is non sense... so I beleive that there are chrisitians, muslims, and jews out there who ... (it might come as a shock to you... brace yourself) ... not terrorists.
and on the other hand, if you find a person pissing on the bible and holding the cross upside down, and you ask him what religion he is... and he says he is christian and believes that he is following the orders of the bible... should you conclude that all this is the correct Christianity? and believe him just because he said so? and even call him a christian yourself?
Bottom line is, i am not making any excuses for anyone... i am just saying it like it is...
So the IRA terrorist aren't christians because they have been excommunicated from the catholic church,
Yet the muslims can't say that the extremist terrorist aren't muslims.
sounds kinda two faced doesn't it.
There are plenty of Imams preaching hatred and all that infidel stuff - find me a Catholic priest doing the same ...
Though a quick google on IRA priest terrorist throws up some interesting results.
yet it's not ok for muslims to say that these te…
What's next? Californians are not Americans? Bavarians are not Germans?
Just look at the recent shootings at the base in texas, many muslim leaders came out and spoke against it, I guess when you watching tv you only remember the parts that are pleasing to your views. I think also a few pages back someone posted the response of the Muslim leadership in London after the bombings there.
oh and lets not forget all that crap that rev wright was preaching in some of his sermons. I mean this is a rev preaching at a church, or how bout that one rev from the south that was telling his congregation to pray for the death of our president. I mean what kinda bull is that. so tell me what seperates Him from the terrorist who prays for the same? or is it ok because the one guy is christain, and the other claims to be muslim?
You choose to consider cathlocis have lost their christianity .. you choose to see it this way, they choose to see it differently.
Its just like the logic of the terrorists who call themselves muslims and the true concept and principle of islam.
I mean you can not keep saying you choose to see it this way, but they dont... its driving us into an endless loop. I gave you clear rules and laws of Islam, I can give you several proofs as well... you will say that they (who call themselves muslims) wil ldo the same to defend their logic... so no matter what i say, you will say they have another logic, therefor what i am saying is not valid.
Such discussions are endless , and turn to be simply pointless... seriously man.
Sorry but since its reaching brick walls am stepping out... for now at least.
Cheers
WK
Of course they're Christians..
You choose to consider cathlocis have lost their christianity .. you choose to see it this way, they choose to see it differentl…
So now that I have admitted that Catholics are Christians, will you admit that these terrorist types are Muslim?
I will edit the Wikipedia page for you, it is wrong as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity
Wait, this is getting complicated, even all Popes were wrong as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope
Even Pope Benedict XVI is wrong:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/world/europe/11iht-pope.4.6617139.html?_r=1
I kinda feel proud of having a fellow TTer who knows more about Catholicism that the Pope himself.
From your link :
The mainstream, official voice of Islam in America wasn?t forceful enough in condemning the violence and the acts of terror on 9/11. There was some hesitancy, and there was more concern with hate crimes against Muslims, which I think were relatively low, and there was more focus on that than actually looking at the violence and the hate speech that has been committed in the name of Islam," al-Rahim said.
The Cathoholics came much later when they discovered kiddy fiddling.
Was Jesus a Cathoholic? - I don't think so.
I'm a Catholic...but I haven't even been exposed to kiddy fiddling....so maybe I'm not...now I'm confused?
Certainly "the book" (writing) helped advance our societies...but now so many of our problems are centred around everybody having "a book"....
and belief systems
Timmeh's not saying that Catholics aren't Christian, he's saying HE doesn't consider them to be Christian. There's a difference.
You think they would just focus together on a common enemy, like the Judean Peoples Front.
Jack Chick's take on it. This nutter is always amusing.
Do we really want/need to go down that path?
Off topic.. (mostly..)
Perhaps you'd also be kind enough to answer my question regarding the terrorists and in which religion they claim to be acting for.
and to answer your question in a clear way, they will claim to be muslims..
my brother and father live in saudi arabia, i lived my entire life in lebanon, i can tell you from the inside... this media studio directed whatever is a load of crap
there was a lake once with a sign stating "no fishing no swimming"
a dumbass jumped in and started swimming... a cop came up to him and asked him if he saw the sign ... he said "yes it said : no fishing no! ... swimming "
does this mean they are both right?
No true Scotsman.
Western society overall has done quite well in just ignoring these religious leaders.
Does the world have a chance that people from other religions would ever follow same path of just ignoring these stupid religious leaders and turn blind eye to books written by some uneducated people from stne age era instead of calling them best books ever written and glorifying such stupidity of sorts.
Whe we develop intellectually, we should also have a logical mind to see through Farce which was dissolved in our minds when we were kinders.
Muslims make it quite clear that the laws of their god supersede any other law on earth. They're willing to break any law they see fit as long as they don't break ones they think were handed down by Muhammed.
People that smoke marijuana do so knowing that in most countries it is against the law.
People used to love it in England when the local pub locked the doors at 11PM, and continued to serve alcoholic beverages, in stark contrast with the law.
People drive cars at speeds prohibited by law. They may believe that they are exercising judgment when doing so, perhaps only speeding on an open and empty road - but the fact remains that the law does not provide for "judgment calls", and they are indeed breaking the law.
People in some countries break the law by merely standing by an opinion, and some go to jail for it.
Sometimes humans believe that their personal beliefs are above the law. Fact of humanity, not a stain on Islam.