High court deems Berlin shop hours unconstitutional

Of the few things I hate about living in Germany, the shopping hours are possibly #1 on the list.

"the Protestant and Catholic churches afraid the sanctity of their holy day was being unduly impinged. ": hmm I think this was a democratic country. Now I am not too aware of the seperation of State and Church but I believe that if individuals want to go shopping on a Sunday rather than go to Church, that should their own decision. Moreover, I highly doubt that keeping them from shopping will have them want to go to Church.

So people will go to church instead. What a bunch of idiots.

Think this judge needs to move himself forward a hundred years and realize that not everyone wants or needs the church, freedom of choice springs to mind here and as far as i'am aware church services on a sunday tend to be in the mornings and the shops do not even open until 13:00 so how does that effect them? plus if im not mistaken isn't discrimmination against the law and if it is my choice to shop on a sunday does this not discrimminate against me? constitutional or not all this man has done is ensure more poeple will want nothing to do with the church!

Open some more shops in the Hauptbahnhof

Gotta be Nr. 1 on my list of stupid things in Germany... I wonder what percentage of the population go to church on Sundays? All I know is that when a shop is open on a Sunday it is normally packed... enough said.

I will have to put it to my boss that he closes his airline down every Sunday!!!

Why are shops held up to be such a holly cow??? Restaurants, petrol stations, trains, taxis, airports, emergency services, swimming pools, buses, cinemas, theatres, pubs, to name a few. OK for these heathens to work, but not shop employees....................see you in church..NOT!

It isn't so that people can go to church, it's so that they have a day off. Sure there are contradictions but I love it. Sundays are just chill days.

It is about time that the church was separated from the state as it has absolutely no business in the running of this country or any other for that matter. It should stick to what it is good at, worrying about what people do in the privacy of their own homes, bedrooms and thoughts, encouraging hypocracy and taking false credit for being the morality police for the unthinking. The only reason I can think of that this very expensive lawsuit (thats where some of your church tax goes people, currently it has cost about 2 million? )being successful is that politicians are just apologists scared of offending the god lobby as that would be grounds for their excommunication which is a vote loser.

Sunday opening may not provide more jobs, as the companies will just re-organise staffing, but surely the government can see the extra tax income potential.

In the UK, sunday shopping in Scotland came in because the larger shops found that the income they generated was far more than the fines levied by the government for opening on a Sunday. So many did it, that in the end, the law was changed, a case of public disobedience changing the law.

Once again, germany (and the outer hebrides) lag behind the rest of europe by at least 10 years.

I completely agree that shops should be allowed to open on a Sunday if they wish. Personally I don't have much time and the chance to go shopping on a Sunday would be a great help. It would also help the shops themselves financially.

Unfortunately we don't live in a free world. Religious beliefs still continue to dictate to the rest of us what we can or can't do.

As pointed out it is the hypocrasy they I find funny. Some things are allowed to operate on Sundays but others are not. If it's so important it should be all or nothing. I'm sure God doesn't compromise ;-)

What about the sanctity of the religious days of non christians (I know it's a Catholic country don't flame me) ? Shouldn't they be protected as well in this case?

One of the many things I like about the way you do things in Germany is the fact that you keep Sundays special. I do not say this for religious reasons, its simply that I like the idea of one day a week where you dont have to do anything and dont feel the pressure to do so. I have never understood the need to open shops on Sundays anyway. If I need some paint or a new CD or whatever then I will buy it anyway, I just have to plan better and go shopping on Saturday or during the week!

Shop sales wille the same whatever as if we need it we will buy it when they are open. Unless of course the shops want to open on Sundays to catch out the week willed who will impulse buy something they dont really need??

Keep up the good work, I just wish we could stand up to our retailers in the same way!

Spoken like a bunch of truly consumption?addled shopaholics.

It's funny that they have to protect us from ourselves and from the retail chains that are hungry for our cash, and need to staff their stores to get that cash. So I guess they are protecting those stores? employees as well.

It's actually great that they have ruled on this case in this manner. There's nothing that you need that you can't actually buy on Sunday either at the train station or duty apotheke. Everything that you want you can just buy before.

It?s nice to not live in a consumption driven economy. Some shopping is great. But too much is bad for your well being. As is having an economy that has become so consumer driven that planned obsolescence is the norm, and everything you buy breaks shortly thereafter and goods that last are only for the upper middle class or above.

It?s nice to have a day where you actually have to stop and breath. That?s called living.

Well done, Germany.

And if you can't stop and breathe as long as shops are open, you are a sad pathetic individual.

At least the Christians dont have problems with us sitting in bars 24/7 here. Alcoholism = good, shopping = bad.

In a democratic country what people want is what it should be done. My informal research shows me that Germans do not want Sunday shopping to be a permanent thing, but they are OK if it happens in special days.

Of course "ex-pats" in Germany knows what is better for Germany.

Well, this is obvious, isn't it? How can the church expect to get any money in their collection baskets on Sunday when people are out buying food instead?

Just like kentishbells, having one day a week that is somewhat restricted is a good way to cause people to slow down a bit, and to delay thinking of their selfish desires. As you read all of these posts above, it seems fairly obvious that "my rights" are superior to anything else. In fact, I find it funny that not providing something to the whole group is seen as discrimination to a specific group - another example of "me" above everything else.

I would like to think that if more businesses were closed on Sundays, it would allow families to spend more time together. In case you haven't seen it, the disintegration of families and family time has led to far too strong individualism - not independence - and everyone believes the world must revolve around their wants. This attitude has resulted in even a person's immediate family becoming second-rate.

All this is not to say that shopping on Sundays is the "bad guy" here, but when the focus shifts to "me" instead of to family, friends and others, a country loses its group focus, its ability to establish principles that make it strong and worth fighting for, and its people become merely a number, a tax revenue source and a commodity. While many churches may have the wrong idea of spirituality or they may have a wrong view of God or the Bible, the one thing they have in common is that they foster a sense of unity and family.

When the government then says they are trying to improve the unity of the country by encouraging unity of the family by continuing a practice that supports these, what is the problem?

Basket donation? They take your money directly from your payment slip, you do not have to show in church. Quite effective if you ask me.

It's kind of like a Gym membership, they hope you just keep paying without using the facilities.

This is supposed to be a secular state, so the church "shouldn't" have a say - but religion is nothing more than fancy dressed politics so .. "I'll scratch your back .." sort of thing.

I don't understand the "let's keep Sunday quiet" lobby either. Nobody is forcing you to go shopping on a Sunday - but leave those of us alone who might like to. I don't see why anyone should dictate to me "when" I have my time off. I'd like to chose that myself, thank you.

Mind you, it's likely to be years and a huge shift in deep seated thinking before anything does happen - don't forget, this is the country where quite between 1pm and 3pm is almost holy and it is illegal to mow your lawn on a Sunday.

Absolutely, because germans never see beyond Germany, ex-pats have something to compare it with. :-p

If the religionists dont have the personal stamina to back up their beliefs by not shopping on a sunday, then perhaps they should reconsider those beliefs.

On a personal note, Sunday openings would be pretty sad for me, as Mrs B works in Retail and would no doubt be working on our only day of the week together as a family.

Having said that, it is nice to know that if I want to buy something on Sunday I can. It is a question of choice.

The Solution

But here is a compromise, if you pay the church tax, your ausweis, bank cards, credit cards etc, are fitted with an id number linked to your membership of the particular organisation and can only be used in certain establishments on Sunday such as restaurants, petrol stations etc.

That way the pious can remain so and the rest of us can exercise our freedom of choice.

After all, if the purpose of this ban is to keep sundays holy, then this solves the problem. If it is an attempt to prosthelytize people back into the rapidly emptying churches, then at least it will be obviously rather than underhand.

Alternatively, could shops not just declare themselves to be "churches for non-believers" and open anyway. :-)

What I see here is that people need to be forced to slow down and relax? Can't they think for themselves? What about choice? If you don't want to shop on a Sunday then don't. If you want to spend time with your family then do that.

Having the shops open isn't going to force you to go shopping. If it's not peaceful enough then go to another area. You still have the freedom to choose what you do with your time. I, on the other hand, do not have the freedom to choose to go shopping on a Sunday.

The disintegration of families is not caused by Sunday shopping :-) As parents it is our duty to bring up our children properly not the governments. If I cannot raise my children so well because shops are open on Sundays I must be a pretty poor parent. I can CHOOSE to spend time with my family still.

On weekdays all shops close by 8:00p.m. (some by 6:00pm). On saturday many shops in our subburb close by 1:00 p.m. It'll be really good to have shops open on Sundays, so we can take nice rest on saturday (after a streeful week) and then enjoy shopping on Sunday.

Good to see the mods are now the authority on "dumb". How ironic.

It's funny, I remember this debate taking place in the UK in the 70s (jesus, I really am old), the church was losing it's grip even then. I don't care really, but it does seem bizarre that in a country that is supposed to be a democracy, laws can be imposed as if we were still living in a theocracy in the middle ages where laws are passed to keep god happy, not the people.

I thought the law had already been passed and the shops have been breaking the law (or at the least bending it) and this case just reinforced the fact that people in Germany have a right to a day off, as opposed to some other places that are beacons of righteousness where the company you work for seems to own you outright.

Personally I think a "quiet" day once a week is a good thing.

As for the idea that expats have a better view because they can compare to other places? Well once the Americans give up their guns and the Brits drive on the right then maybe you might have a point.

Me too, now if only those church bells would stop ringing on the day the god fearers deem necessary to force us to have a "quiet day".

Oh please, growing up in the States during the seventies I always thought it to be the norm that everything was closed on Sunday, how I long for those days again (in the U.S. that is). How about trying something different for a change on Sundays - spend some quality time with your family, this is something that I think the Germans are trying to maintain, not impose their will from the pulpit, please get a grip. Just let people enjoy at least one day off during the week to spend quality time with the family or friends or just to rest. I'm not one to say that the church should be making the rules here and that is why if you read the article it was the decision of the courts, so leave it; please don't become like the idiots in California who continue to let people vote on a referendum just to have it later overturned by those of the minority that did not vote for it to simply have it over ruled or simply thrown out all together. Some things are better left alone - like leaving the stores CLOSED ON SUNDAY.

thomass66

nothing to stop people enjoy a quiet day even if the shops are open. This is what I don't understand in the whole argument. People are still free to relax if they choose to.

For others it would be good to have a choice to go shopping if they so decide. It doesn't impact those that don't choose to.

Let people make their own choices ....

Glad to hear i'm not the only one with a problem with the tuneless clanging that goes on every Sunday.

You will be making the christians all wear armbands with crosses on next!

(See threads about minarets for background).

Serves them right for stopping me from buying I don't need whenever I want.

It's absolutely vital that we be allowed to shop seven days a week. Jesus, what are we supposed to do with our lives if we were unable to shop on a Sunday. I'm personally such a idiot that if I was unable to immediately fulfil whatever vague sense of retail need I might experience within eight hours of feling it, I might actually learn to control my spending impulses thereby failing to financially over extend myself and thus neglecting to fulfil my obligations to the great consumer credit house of cards to which we are all manacled.

And then what woud happen?

It seems that there is a false notion that the shops opening on a Sunday would only benefit shopaholics. A bit narrow minded don't you think?

I work away from home so only have the weekend available o me to do shopping, see friends, do housework and any DIY etc I might have to do. Wouldn't it be great if I could choose to do some of those things on a Sunday instead of being dictated to that I have to do those on a Saturday?

Sometimes it's about neccessity not desire. Long live freedom of choice !

Strange isn't how some people accept this law on grounds of religion and social unity, yet are outraged at the thought of a minaret because Islam and sharia law may have similar laws restricting freedoms.

Personally I don't mind the shops being closed on a Sunday, it is a family day. But I do object to shops closing on a Saturday that may fall on a bank holiday, only then deciding to open on a holy Sunday to make up for loss earnings.

As for driving on the right, it isn't right. In Medieval and feudal times (thats a long long time ago to our American cousins ;-) ) Knights used to pass each other on the left because most people are right handed, therefore your sword arm was closest to your enemy. Napoleon was left handed, so he made everyone else go against common sense and pass on the right.

lilplatinum

The bells comment is classic.... I totally agree and I live next to a church... 25min every Sunday like clockwork

Really, it's better the way it is. This decision is good for families and for workers especially. It is bad for large retail chains, and their stock holders and anyone who wants to see the German economy transformed into a model of US style consumerism with it's attendent superficiality. It is also admittedly bad for people who are unable to plan more than 24 hours in advance or people who value rank convenience over substantive quality of life. Really, we are better off the way we are. Relax.

There's doubtless a lack of "hustle" here as well, which likely compounds an existing vibe of "all employers are there to exploit you". Lots of people in the US or UK will work the night shift or weekends for a bit of a cash bonus, or even just because they figure it's behavior that charges up the favor bank with the boss.

But the thing that's really a head-scratcher for me are service businesses (dry cleaners, etc.) that actually close at lunchtime!

Someone clearly needs to introduce Junior Achievement here.

Please elaborate on this point, as it's been my observation that superficiality seems to rule the day here to a much greater extent than one sees in the US.

If families need shops to be closed to enjoy quality time then that's an issue in itself. People shouldn't need to be FORCED to spend time with their family !

It's not about bad planning. It's not about quality of life. It's about freedom of choice and not being dictated to based on other peoples outdated principles and superstitions.

It's not about making more money for the retail chains. Economically they wouldn't neccessarily benefit. Their sales MAY see an increase but their overheads increase disproportionately more so. Customer spending has a ceiling but the facility and salary costs would be additional.

I find that this ruling would not bother me much if the churches weren't involved. The idea of a one official day of rest for everyone has its merit, especially for employees who can't always beg out of working on the weekend, even if it is the only time they might have time with their family.

But the image of church officials standing gloathing about the sanctity of their entirely religious holdy Sunday makes me extremely uncomfortable.

WWFSMD???

I'm completely opposite to Rimini. I hope that we get Sunday trading, but am quite happy that the churches are the ones who brought this action. Most people in Germany (and particularly in more liberal Berlin) want Sunday shopping and it's always nice to see religious organisations shooting themselves in the foot and pissing off the very people they're trying to lure.

Short term loss for the greater good...

The Local article fails to mention that the cited article of the Weimar constitution is part of today's Basic Law (article 140). The wording might seem antiquated ? "day of rest", "for edification" ?, but the concept is modern. It's a fact that many people complain about not being able to wind down ("abschalten"), and it's easier for people to to this at regular intervalls when there is one day that is more quiet than the rest of the week, with most people off work. While the origins of Sonntagsruhe are religious, it was a social progress to have it protected by law in the second half of the 19th century, when working on Sundays had become quite common due to industrialisation.

If the state of Berlin had allowed shopping just on one Advent Sunday, that might have been okay, but it can be argued that open shops on all four Sundays in a row (clearly for commercial reasons) takes away too much of the character of these days.

If shops have to be closed on Sundays because that's the way the churches want it, then they should be closed on Friday on behalf of the Muslims and on Saturday on behalf of the Jews. Let's be fair and non-discriminatory.

Can people not perhaps decide on their own "day of rest"??? Mine is Wednesday.

And for the guards in museums it's Monday ? I'm all for individualism, but the same day off for most people (Sunday) is what makes this day different from the rest.

A woman friend of ours was hired to work at a department store just because they expanded working hours and were to open on Sunday. It will be interesting if they will keep her on know.

Please don't forget that being open on Sundays can also benefit workers. For example, I used to study at master level full time and work part time in retail to make ends meet when I lived in England. Being able to work shifts on the weekends allowed me to have more time to go to university (courses took place 4 days a week), use the libraries and basically concentrate my studying over the week and make the money over the week-end. I understand that some retail workers might feel as if they would have to sacrifice part of their weekend but for others it would be a blessing.

Moreover, I find it difficult to understand that this law applies to certain type of shops but not to others, so restaurants, drinking holes, gas stations and others can stay open on Sundays. Plus, now that I work in an office full time, I would like to be able to choose whereas I should run my errands and do my shopping on Saturday or Sunday. I find in Berlin where maybe people have a social life on Friday night and Saturday, that Sunday would be the perfect day to do . Plus we're not talking about spending the entire day in shops, I am sure that people here are adult enough to manage their own free time without the help of the Church and the State, thank you very much!

I don't think it's a question of expats knowing what is "best" for Germany or not. When in Rome, do as the Romans and all that. It is just that having had another experience, we know that "everything is closed after 6/8/10 p.m. and all day on Sundays. Have fun fighting the crowds at the grocery on Saturdays!" is a bit more inconvenient than it needs to be.

As if Jesus would not like to buy his bread, fish and wine supplies on a sunday!

after laws against home schooling, this is one of another crazy law i have ever seen,,,churches attendance in Germany is already so low, how could this help?

in the States the shops open 24x7, and churches are always full!!!

i love to go to church on Sunday, i also love to be able to buy something on Sunday too, if i need it?

Think of the poor minimum (or the equivalent in Deutschland) wage workers who would have to work Sundays if they want to keep their jobs. Everyone deserves at least one day of rest each week. Surely people can do without shopping one day a week to give the folks on the bottom rung of retail jobs a break.

Come to the US and see what its like to have 24/7 shopping. Its a whore house of consumerism. Dont believe what the TV wizard shows you on the TV. It is a wasteland of zombie consumers. Never at ease. Never with enough. Fat and yet not happy. The elderly lodged in old folks homes, and the children raising themselves--lucky they survived the "choice" of their mother to execute or to give birth to. You protest for what you do not know.

Attempts to open up general commerce on Sunday's is an insult to human dignity. Workers should be allowed a day of rest to prevent exploitation by business interests. By tradition in many German states Sunday has been a day off. The German Constitution since 1919 provides for a day off for spritual reasons it says nothing about it being for Christians only. Germany was a Christian country. Once Germany was called the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.. German culture has been shaped by its Christian heritage but just because a law has its origins in relgion does not a law per se. Most laws are based on religion or morality. The basic right of workers to have a day of rest is rational, humane and just. Untill the 1980's this was also the law in many states in the US.

Just curious, would the numerous sex clubs and cabarets be open on Sundays? What about the bars and pubs? Are they, technically, 'shops'?

Although I find the increasing hours of labor among workers here in the U.S. discouraging, the courts ruling seems to be a kind of pouting by the reactionaries against the weakening hold of the church and paternalistic values. If it were held out as a reason to compel rest, why is it only on Sunday? I would much prefer Saturday as a day when the stores are closed on a weekend. No, it is simply a government jamming religious beliefs down the throats of people who aren't going to run to the alters because they can't pick up groceries. I personally enjoy the peace offered by closed shops, and can manage to schedule around a few hours each week, but I disagree with the ruling simply because it is dogmatic and hypocritical.

I also find it appalling that the German government aides in the tithing of money for the church by withholding from the paycheck, but I imagine this reaction is not uncommon for most Americans, even with the rise of the right wing. It is this kind of institutionalized snake oil sales that makes me want to call up a few friends and claim a visitation by our own personal prophets in need of profit.

I have always thought German shops being closed on Sunday was a great idea.

In the current economy it sounds like they are shooting themselves in the foot, but in the big picture it promotes relaxation, forces people be organized and plan ahead, and sets up a reliable constant in everyone's week where they can count on having time to accomplish things.

It is too bad Christendom had to be the one to force it in the courts.

I Love my German Sundays.Cool off with no pressure.Time to relax and plan for week.I think this is what it should be.

1FCK_!FCK, everyone even shop workers who work on sundays get a day off in the week! what do you suppose they do with that day? i can tell you, they shop i know as my wife works weekend, and almost every weekend in a Hotel, do you think they should close Hotels on weekend because these poor low paid workers deserve a day of rest, lets all get real, everyone including weekend workers get a day of rest, bottom line is freedom of choice if we are to close on sundays because the church petitioned it, then we should close fridays for muslims and saturdays for jews ok...

Just to add that the culture of many shop assistants I've experienced, of the "not really bothered about selling, just waiting to knock off" type, could benefit the economy more by realising that customers satisfaction is their bread and butter.

Sunday shopping might benefit the retailers, might benefit those who can't shop other days, but there is always the internet! Something which one sales person in MediaMarkt obviously knew when a customer asked if they could explain more about a Digital SLR camera he was interested in, reply was "if you want to know more, look on Google"!!! I felt like saying, "yes and while you do, check out preisvergleich and you'll find it 20% cheaper to buy online". What an idiot!

Gaffer says "Nothing to stop people enjoy a quiet day even if the shops are open. This is what I don't understand in the whole argument"

If you live in the city center as I do, then having one day a week where there isn't the constant din of endless traffic and the frustrating congestion of pedestrians is a very wonderful thing. On Sundays, I can leave the apartment and the streets are QUIET. Go out on any other day of the week when the shops are open and it's loud and hectic and frazzles the nerves after a while. Perhaps I'm partially sensitive from having grown up in the quiet countryside, but I love German Sundays.

This is what some people here are talking about when they say it's nice having one day of relaxation.

Tron McFinger, I used to live next to a pig farm and guess what it stunk!! Surely you are free to live wherever you want, if you don't like the noise move out, if you prefer the tranquility of suburbia then why move into the city in the first place! Besides living in a suburb would be cheaper too.

However on the point of having a day off and it being sort of quiet, I can see the benefits.

It depends when you go shopping. 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning and there aren't that many people there. That's when I like to go shopping. To get it out of the way early on.

I like to go shopping at 11pm on Sunday nights - at least I did when I lived in Australia. For exactly the same reason, there weren't too many people there.

Why should your preference be legally catered for, but not mine?

You can still go shopping up to 10 p.m. at Kaiser's.

Why should people cater to your preference?

But if the shops were to open at 9 a.m., I'd go shopping then. I don't particularly WANT to go shopping at 8. But I do it because I know that the supermarket will be open and fairly empty then. You know.. I adjust to the framework that exists rather than wishing people would change it.

Not in Munich - everything is closed at the latest at 8:00 pm.

Hazza can't and neither can I. Shops shut here at 8pm.they shouldn't HAVE to. But they shouldn't be prevented from doing so if they feel they can earn a living doing so.good for you that you can be so flexible. I can't shop at 8am as i have to go to work. We're all Hausfrauens, ya know.

8 a.m. on a Saturday.

And I am far from being a Hausfrau. I work damned hard and rely on no man to keep me. So don't be so damned patronising.

The shops open at 7 a.m. these days, too.

When I taught, I often had to leave the house at 7 a.m. - I even had classes that started at 7.30 a.m. And then classes would carry on until 9.00 or even 9.30 p.m. And that was in the 90s. Still didn't starve. STill got the Christmas shopping done.

These days, I start work at 8 a.m. or sooner on weekdays, 9 a.m. on Saturdays. Sometimes even Sundays somewhere between 8 and 9 a.m. I can work until 11 p.m. when times are busy.

So purlease don't assume I am a hausfrau.

i didn't but the German legislators and pro-restricting-shop-hours-league assume that we all have a hausfrau at home to do our shopping during the week.

On a Sunday? Wow...where?Well your preference is legally catered for. So why shouldn't mine? Obviously if shops themselves don't want to cater for it, then it's a …[/quote]You know - if the framework was decided by the shops themselves (catering to supply and demand), then I would agree with you. Fact is though, that the framework is decided by a 3rd party (the government), that really has no business in telling both the customer and the supplier that trading is only permitted between some arbitrarily decided times during the week.

i didn't but the German legislators and pro-restricting-shop-hours-league assume that we all have a hausfrau at home to do our shopping during the week.

Really? Shops are open for so long these days and most of the people I know are single. If they assumed that we all have a little wife at home to do the shopping, then they would be open from 9 to 5 just as with traditional working hours.

"View Postnina_glyndwr, on 2.Dec.2009, 2:42pm, said:

You can still go shopping up to 10 p.m. at Kaiser's.

On a Sunday? Wow...where?

View Postnina_glyndwr, on 2.Dec.2009, 2:42pm, said:

Why should people cater to your preference?

Well your preference is legally catered for. So why shouldn't mine? Obviously if shops themselves don't want to cater for it, then it's a different matter - but why should it be legal for shops to be open when it's convenient for you, but actually be breaking laws by being open when it's convenient for me? Seems a little unfair, don't you think?"

Hazza,

You really only have Sundays to go shopping on? How do you manage to live then? How come your employer is so bad that this is allowed? Got any chance of a union representative taking your employer on to say "Give Hazza better working conditions because he only has the chance to go shopping on Sundays and he can't do so because of the law"? I feel sorry for you if that is the case and I find it strange that such a state of affairs has been allowed to come about.

Worse than that, it is actually pressure from the Church on the government that is deciding this, as if the the church should have any say at all in how a country is run.

For the nexr few sundays stores should hand out free pope on a rope ....soap bars.

Are there many places in the world that isn't run by rules set down by some religion or other?

China, N. Korea and the like perhaps but in the "free" world?

I didn't say it's the only time I can go shopping, I just said that it's a time I prefer.

Your preferred time is available, but mine is banned by law - so how is that fair?

Anyway - I'm self-employed, so the only person who ever represents me at anything, is me...

Blimey.. compare and contrast.... would you like a state with rules set down by some religion or by bonkers Communist leaders....

Oooooh.. rock and a hard place.... what shall I choose.

Hazza,

"I didn't say it's the only time I can go shopping, I just said that it's a time I prefer."

I thought you said it was when it was convenient for you.

There are plenty of things in the world that I prefer to do than to what it actually possible, but sometimes the law doesn't allow it, sometimes social conventions don't. Just got to live as best as I can.

I believe that France is also pretty adamant about seperating religion and politics...

If there is an actual good reason for banning something that I want to do, then fine. But for something to be legal at some times, and illegal at some arbitrarily decided time (like shopping) makes no sense at all.So you believe that if a country isn't influenced by religious nuts, then it must necessarily be a bonkers communist state.

If that's your level of intelligence, then there really is no point discussing anything with you...

Ahh the "Thats what the law says so lets not rock the boat and question it" attitude, truly a powerful tool for social change. (And I won't even comment on the historical application of that attitude to this reigon...)

Hazza.. the examples were based on a couple of examples given by a previous poster. I was just responding to that. Just a bit of fun. Relax.

Lilplatinum.... depends on whether it is worth fighting to change some things. With some things, I can do things behind closed doors. With others, it's just as well the law isn't changed as I'd be shooting an awful lot of people that annoy me at times. No-one here... just you know.. there are times when you think "God, why bother with someone like you... BANG, BANG".

Don't take everything so seriously.

You'd be surprised, I am a misthanthrope who gets annoyed at pretty much every catagroizable group of humanity who grew up in a state where guns were easier to acquire than a case of beer for an 18 year old and I never shot anyone.... (that the police know of)

Think it is clear from all these posts that there is a varied point of view on what is right/wrong, best times/worst times, only point that is relevent is that 1 high court judge has upheld a appeal from the CHURCH without 1 thought for those who neither believe in a god or believe but dont go to church, this judge has not looked at the broad spectrum of the population when conciduring his verdict for instance muslims the day of sanctity is friday, for jews it is saturday, he did not take those religious factions into account when making his descision either, just a train of thought from my side, i wonder if this judge is also a church going man? (catholic perhaps) if so his entire descision could be called into challenge based on the fact he could have used his own belief in making his verdict thus not possibly being impartial in his final judgement.

I grew up with guns in the house. And I haven't shot anyone yet either... though sometimes I feel like like it.

I keep telling the gym I go to that what they need is a punch bag so I can take my aggression out on it. I'm fortunate in that over the years I have managed to carve out a little niche which means I have very little contact with idiots... but it does happen from time to time.

I guess I didn't get it then because even in the interests of "fun", I'd still try to avoid saying things that make me look completely stupid...

So sorry.

I've got some pigs of translations and I was just trying to bring some levity into my life by being flippant.

Must go and stand in the dunce's corner for a while and do penance for my flippancy.

(Goes off into a corner, scourging herself, shouting "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea..."

I wish they would quit ringing those blasted church bells on Suntag, they are hard on my hangover!

I've been living in Germany for the past year. Greece is the same way with Sunday closures. Separation of church and state doesn't exist in Greece, which can be difficult for an atheist like me. However, I don't mind the one day a week closures. I lived in Louisiana for several years before moving here. Walmart reigns supreme there (rampart consumerism and crap products). I'm glad Germany isn't like that.

Someone mentioned that superficiality in Germany surpasses that in the US. I'd like to ask how on earth you've reached that conclusion.

I've lived in the US (I was born and mostly raised in NY and have lived in Florida, Louisiana, and Texas), Greece, and Germany. I have never seen a match for the incredible consumerism and superficiality that so many Americans indulge in, anywhere else in the world.

Nor will you, the unparalleled buying power of the American people has been harnessed to planned obsolescence in order to drive a consumption based economy. There is more to life than things and the "Freedom" to purchase them 24/7. And the retail workers for these places need to protected as well. It was a good call from the BVG. A good call for a better life than buy buy buy like a hamster in a wheel.

Hardly fair to compare Louisiana to a first world country...Someone watched Fight Club too many times. Just because you are too sad to resist the pull of shopping does not mean a grocery store open on a Sunday turns your society into a Brave New World.

You mean like going crazy buying bulding materials at Bauhaus?

I still see people who aren't getting the point about rest and family time. It's not only about whether you can manage your family and take time together even if the shops are open...but what if your family members are employed at the shops? They then wouldn't have the option about being with their families. Yes, they could then leave that job and find another, but is that really the answer? Maybe we should require all families to have someone in their family working on every day of the week, so they could never have a day together - oh wait! that's where it seems to be headed anyway!

Sorry, meant rampant

so since the christians get to close shops when are the jews and muslims going to demand shops also be closed on fridays??

if the high court ruled this way it open the door for EVERY religious group that is ESTABLISHED by cultural tradition to also not only demand that shops be closed but to have it done as this sets a court PRECEDENT.

.so how about those hindus and their half man half monkey god and kali the six armed large breated death goddess of course krishna and his epic phallus.

throw in the wiccans and the zoroastrains and we have a real PARTY sort of like carnival on steroids.

i say hooey to all those crazy religious wackos government should be about business and not about religion but then germany IS LED BY THE NOSE since the nazi pope is ruling in rome.

Your dander is up tonight, lil' fella? You know you make an interesting point, but I am pretty sure you missed it while you were trying to be clever. Louisiana isn't actually so great. And why is that? Deep economic and social structures, heavy industry and enough to work to go around are still lacking there post Katrina and were always only close to the coast anyway. The good things that industry brings balanced by the bad things are lacking too, as well as access to education and decent medical care. And Walmart, and spending their hard earned money on goods that are designed to break, is surely the way forward. Consuming garbage is going to bring them out of it! Amirite?

Here those poor people in retail and service who have to deal with people like yourself, should be spared one day of dealing with the public as servants. There's always the airport or the train station if you need something.

And although I am glad that Palahniuk's work left such an impression on you, there are plenty of American writers post WWII who saw what too much consumption would do to the US. Or check out any number of economic studies post reunification or even listen to a pundit or two, you will find that they all sing the same song, they want the Germans to consume more. Because they don't consume enough. Which is hogwash. I hope they don't listen. You are simply wrong headed and selfish and I feel sorry for you. Actually it doesn't. The BVG (German High Court) doesn't work the same way the USSC does at all. And the Churches didn't petition to change the constitution to suit themselves, which could establish a precedent. The court ruled that current exceptions to the "close it on Sundays" rule are not constitutional, because too many exceptions are unacceptable and set a bad precendent and all workers are entitled to a day of rest. They can still make exceptions, but not so many. The fact that Churches brought the suit, and were backed up by the unions, doesn't make this an unacceptable mix of church and state. As organizations in the state churches also have the right to bring suit.

The problems of Louisiana stem from it being the most backwards state in the union with generations of corruption, ineptitude, a legal system based on Napoleonic code, and racial stratification - not from the consumerism that is present in other successfull parts of the states. And again you seem incapable of seperating buying groceries on sunday and complete and complete devotion to consumerism - as if Real open 6 days a week here is somehow morally superior or would gain dominance over the country if it was open 12 more hours a week. You are simply wrong headed and hyperopic and I feel sorry for you. Unless those poor people in service work at the train station, or in cabs, or restaraunts, or bars, or trains, or hospitals, or police stations, or aiports, or gas stations... they don't deserve that day off like those privlidged grocery store works. And i'm sure you would never use any of those services on a day people deserve off because you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite - good on ya!Funny that mister anti consumerism suggests I go somewhere that pretty much only serves commercialized junk food and is filled with fast food... Yeah, sophomoric nihilistic writers amuse me... "Nihilists! me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."

I noticed that in all those things you list about what is wrong with Louisiana that you won?t/can?t assert that modern consumerism is helping them or making things better there...and I also notice that you aren?t asserting that consumerism in more ?successful? states made them way. Telling. And you brought up Palahniuk?s film, not me. I didn?t actually care too much for Fight Club. If you don?t like his work, then don?t bring him up. And quoting him from memory, also not me.

Mr. Anti-consumerism would actually suggest you learn to plan ahead and go shopping when the stores are open. It?s not so hard. If the Germans can do it, then surely you can figure it out.

People in service already have to work Sundays it?s true, and they well deserve extra pay and sympathy for it. So by your rationale it?s ok if we make it worse? This case wasn?t about opening on Sundays for grocery stores; it was about commercializing every Sunday in the advent season. I would prefer that not to happen.

In trying to defend the kind of consumerism that is gutting our society back home, you are taking a side that is not just bad for workers,but also for your community and for yourself. The saddest part of it is is that you will dig in and defend your "right" to be used in this way. You can't fill up the holes with things, dummy. Go home man. You sound so unhappy and you can shop all you want back home.

Yes, because I admit there are problems with modern consumerism and wall-martization. Having an arbitrary day off that the church deems certain workers deserve and others don't is not one of them.I do, I do my shopping in the shitty picked over German stores in the 30 minutes before closing when I am off work. I've done it for 2.5 years now, it doesn't mean I wont bitch about it. It also doesn't mean it is a defining factor of my life, its a message board and a topic came up that annoys me so I will complain since it is relevant to the thread.Well if they got extra pay for it then it wouldn't be worse.. I remember working at Kroger in high school and we got double overtime for working on Holidays, it was great and amazingly I still had plenty of time with my family. (Hell, the worst time with my family was when my Dad had his mid life crisis and adopted your 'we don't need stuff' philosophy, sold lots of our and moved us to Alaska while taking a huge pay cut to reclaim his youth. Worst year of my life, thank god he recanted his way and went back to worship at the alter of materialism!) Not that I think there is anything special about Jesus day that deserves overtime. I certainly had no problem bartending on Sundays, good money and I got to watch football. Hell I am on call 24/7/365, but I chose to do it and am rewarded well for it, and shockingly I manage to do things other than shop at Real.

Its quaint how you are unable to separate any element of convenience and free market from unfettered consumerism and make generalizations. But hey, keep on fighting the good fight against the inevitable.

Apparently you think I dislike walmart style hamsterism for it's own sake. That's certainly not the case. It's bad for the country economically, especially in the long run. It's bad for the quality of life of the American people.

You haven't brought any arguments to the table besides "Well *hyuck* consumerism actually is kinda bad." And "your arguments are just generalizations." Generalize this. Arresting the trend of increasing the amount of time which stores can make an exception to the no-sunday rule, will provide a day of rest for workers in the industries affected. In addition it will halt an increase in profit from consumption, and further restrict and thus direct the economy to seek profit from other sectors.

Any increase in profit or intake comes with the price of dependency. Whether we are talking about public $ or private $.

It's been 20 years and we are still paying the Solidaritätszuschlag. The Bundes would go broke without it. Try to balance the books in Florida or Georgia and fund the states' massive education budgets while not spending lottery money. You can't. You won't be able to. What was supposed to be a supplement has become a full time necessity. Profit in any sector is the same way. That is why you will not see any short term solution to the illegal alien question in the US anytime soon. Hiring illegals makes business that hire them, who pay them less and thereby profit from less overhead, dependent on illegal labor and unable to compete if they have to pay market wages. There is no incentive to hire legally or solve the problem with a guest worker program.

The most basic study of what's wrong with the Japanese economy will show that the Japanese save too much. And in the US, we spend far too much, and we have slowly lost our deeper economic structures. Any country needs a balance. But you don't want balance. You say you just want to grocery shop on Sundays. Again, go home, this thread isn't about bitter expats grocery shopping on Sundays. It's about the church bringing suit to stop the commercialization of Advent Sundays. Nipping a nasty trend in the bud. Halting what you call the inevitable.

Those profits from increased operation times start to look pretty enticing. But the cost is literally too high. We know that completely free markets don't work and that controlled economies also don't work. Balance is what is called for. What is also called for is a view that includes more than just convenience, or what you perversely refer to as modernity. There is a cultural and social aspect as well, but considering the blinders you brought with you, which you refuse to take off, I am not surprised you can't see it. Again, you have my deepest sympathies.

I'd just like to point out that in Japan, there's quite a bit of Sunday shopping going on...

They still don't spend enough money.

Impossible, that would make them irrevocably dependant on consumption.

(attached image)

Making your point about Sunday trading leading to rampant consumerism a complete load of bollocks.

Thanks for playing...

Wow, lots of responses on this one! (so why don't I jump into the fray..)

Yeah, lame! Workers unions that are supportive of this referrendum...isn't that ironic. Here's another opportunity to work. Look Germany, you don't HAVE TO be open on Sunday. Also, have they heard of multiple shifts here? Just because the Edeka is open from 7am - 9pm doesn't mean that the employees have to work the ENTIRE TIME. Break it up in half! If EVERYONE works on a Tuesday from 9-5 when do you buy groceries, get your dry-cleaning, buy hardware to fix your "Fahrad?"

I understand the fight against consumerism, but having to leave the office at 4pm so that I can feed myself seems a little...well a pain-in-the-ass is what it is!

Oh yeah, and where do you get an 'after-school job' as a teen? When I was in highschool (USA) I got out of school at 3pm and worked from 4-9pm at the grocerie store.

AAAAND I could work 8 hours a day on Saturday AND Sunday. It wasn't always fun, but the opportunity/flexibility to make some spending cash in my free time was great.

I guess you don't start working until you're 18 here? But then, who pays for that beer you're buying at the store when you're 16?

!! Ich verstehe nicht !!!

they should just build big shopping centres in railway stations, like Berlin Hbf, then they can open on sundays

That sounds civilized. Then if you didn't want to work Sundays, you wouldn't apply there.

I'm all for sunday opening everywhere not just for a limited protected subset of the retail industry. But i think retail workers should be guaranteed 2 consecutive days off (unless they choose to do overtime) and not be forced to work sundays if they don'tr want to. I know it is fairly difficult in practice to prevent employers pressuring people to work but there are actually plenty of people who prefer working sundays.

Nonsense. introducing Sunday trading here would be part of the problem, not a direct cause, just a step of a process involving many steps, of which it's better to not take any.

I believe that there is a Saturn branch in Leipzig Hbf, is it open on Sundays?

I like consumerism. Especially if it means I can go buy my groceries on a late, quiet Sunday evening.

Another person who only thinks of themselves. Not everyone has time during the week. "It suits me so I don't care about anyone else"

"Not everyone has time during the week."

Hence Saturdays.

Hence, Saturdays.

"Hence, Saturdays"

Yeah, on Saturdays from 8-noon when the ENTIRE COUNTRY is crammed into the Edeka, Aldi, or Lindl.

Not having a familie to spend time with on Sundays renders the whole concept pretty pointless to me.

I'd rather work at my office job Th, Fr, Sa, Su, & Mon, and take Tue & Wed off! In fact, I just might do that!

Ok! Go ahead. As long as you are happy!

You get time on Saturdays? Good for you.

I work out of town during the week and though I'm often back on Fridays, sometimes I'm not - and the sports I play in summer are always on Saturdays. If I'm away for the whole week and playing sport on Saturday, when am I supposed to buy groceries?

What would you do if you're back home, working all week and doing sports on Saturday and Sundays? When are you supposed to buy groceries? Whatever you would do over there is probably a good idea over here as well.

But I'm afraid right now you have to starve, sorry.

I think its a plot from the pizza delivery places and gas stations to foist their unhealthy (and highly commercialized) junk food on us on Sundays for lack of better options.

Here in England, Sundays are just hell ! So-called 'freedom' of Sunday shopping means roads are blocked, town and city centres are crowded, you cannot go out for a relaxing walk or visit friends and family without getting caught up in traffic jams leading to shopping centres. Everywhere there is noise. The best thing you can do is stay at home. You feel trapped.

What a relief it is when we tour Germany in the summer and experience quiet, relaxed Sundays, just like England was in the good old days.

Sunday shopping is 'freedom' for some, but at the expense of good common sense and sound traditional values.