Turks: Germany must do more for integration

Hi all,

who did the survey? How many Turks were asked? I have read quite different articles, based on different surveys. The Turks are on the whole well integrated. Of course there are problems, but they are getting blown out of proportion.

I believe that it is the other way around. Come to Berlin and watch the carneval of the cultures - the turks make the smallest contribution. Go to Kottbuser Tor and see the number of satelite dishes. They don't speak German at home, they don't watch German TV - result? When their children go to school they do not understand what their teachers are telling them - they are backward and remain so, hence leaving school with no qualifications and condemning themselves to the lowest paid jobs and poverty. When the Turkish prime minister last visited Germany he made a speech telling the Turks not to integrate. Ok there are always exceptions but as a general it is true.

You can read the full (German) survey here ...

But doesn't it take two to tango? Meaning that the immigrants, as well as the host, should be equally responsible for integration. There are a lot of immigrants (and not just Turkish) who make very little effort to integrate into German society, just as there are shortcomings with German integration policy.

Well if they are not happy living in Germany they could always move back to Turkey to live

I can smell a book-length thread coming on...

Turks are loud and expressive and boisterous. Germans don't welcome Turks with open arms for reasons best known to themselves, but as a loud, expressive and boisterous person myself I can certainly see why one might not be overly eager to integrate with a culture that frowns upon standing out.

The look of disgust I have seen on my German friends' faces when they see a corner full of young Turkish men sickens me, but I realize they can't help it. The way they hold themselves quite literally repulses many German people. My husband in particular is not a fan of the so-called macho, arrogant way some of the men strut around. It grates on his sense of decorum and style.

But I don't mind it one bit. I am not a reserved person at all and when I am around people who want to shush me and mute me it makes me wish I could find a community where I could be myself without always being tutted at and disdained. The lucking effing Turks already have their little communities and I can see the point of view that they might maintain them out of an instinct for mental and spiritual survival, full stop.

Now this argument can and probably will go on for another 30 pages, back and forth, about who owes what to whom. But all of it will be overlooking the big, fat, glaring elephant in the room:

Wherever you are, you have to live and let live. Telling these people they don't get to live the way they want because they were born in a country different to the one you were born in, or because they have different skin color, is called RACISM.

So what they don't want to integrate? There are roughly six billion people on the face of the earth who you will never be friends with. Why should everyone have to be alike? As long as people feed and clothe themselves the rest of the problems exist in the minds of the RACISTS who create them.

I agree with Dessa's book!! :)

There is Racism in the world... (not just against Turks...)

I think that the problem does not totally remain within the turkish community but just immagration in completely... I mean there are people here that are trying to do the right thing... and are trying to just live everyday...

I clearly see the Racism within the just genral population within the Germans... they know immedately who is not a german and ensure that you dont forget...

I think this is really immature and childisch...

I came from the United States and I see clearly how mexicans would be treated within the U.S as I get the same crap from Germans here... and i really am disappointed in how people treat each other...

I just wish that everyone would just agree to live with each other and stop the cry babiness and actually make things better for each other instead of worrying about what color they are... or where they are from...

Ok, so you take a two Turks, two Nigerians, two Americans, and two Russians into the most remote village possible of Baavaria....and walk away for five years. The two Nigerians would speak perfect German, each own a 1-man business operation, and each be a member of the local soccer club. The two Americans? They would each own a farm, be a nightly member of some local bar, and each have a membership in the local hunting club. The two Russians? They'd each own their own bar, be personal friends of the local cops, and speak perfect German.

The Turks? They would have packed up and moved to some urban area where other Turks reside. None of their kids would have finished school or done anything much worth bragging about. Their daughters? Married to another Turk....nothing less than that.

I live in a small village here in Germany. There's a Chinese family that came and spent time learning the language....later bringing a relative or two over. Over five years...they all speak German. Their kids are fully integrated into the school and the parents have expectations over their education. They've come to stay. The Turks? I get the feeling that they really don't think they've come to stay but then they won't dare discuss moving back to Turkey. Thats the funny thing

So Germany must do more for integration, eh?

Did they not notice that you get all these language courses paid for by German tax money even for Turkish mothers at the adult education centers VHS in every town, low priced and tax deductible? Alphabetization courses for the ones which come from countries where the state does not support its citizens to learn to read and write, especially not females in rural areas? Something which does not exist in Turkey where they have hardly any stateside social infrastructures at all?

This is a slap in the face of the host nation.

Maybe it is the lack of willingness to integrate through learning the language and living with the the local laws? I know of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Irish, Dutch, French, Vietnamese, Chinese, ... (you name them) coming to Germany for a living that they all learn the local language first in order to communicate to get around well and start working. It works for them.

I know so many foreign nationals in Germany, South African, English, American, Russians and so forth. They all speak German, even the women!

There are basically two kinds of Turks here. Those who have intergrated so well, you'd not spot them as Turkish straight away, and those who remain Turkish, don't learn German and don't intergrate.

Being English, it's hard to be critical though, without being hypocritical. The British have centuries of colonial history behaving just like that.

Neither do the Americans wander around the planet blending in.

However it is easy for us British, African, American, Russian or European foreign nationals to be critical. We assimulate because we can. The German culture is similar to ours. South African (white) and American (white) culture derives from western European culture. South African and Americans blacks have often adapted western culture, more often than not true Christianity. German, British and French cultures have been intertwined for centuries. Our differences just add spice to life. For the Turks, this isn't always the case. There culture and religion is very different and historically in conflict with ours.

Assimulation of races seems to work better in America but what you see may only be the tip of the iceberg. However America does insist on immigrants learning english.

I'm like your husband..

This is Germany after all.. And however much we all like to complain about Germany - whether us Anglo-expats or Turks or whoever - well, it IS their country.. They have their norms, their preferences, their culture... It's their country and they can like what they want. My father in law maddens me sometimes cuz he doesn't want to eat anything his mother never served.. But hey, who am I to tell him to like Indian or Mexican food??

I think there is a perception too that with Turks that many come here and mooch off the state, while simultaneously refusing to integrate, looking down on the language and the notion of having to learn it, etc.. A lot of anti-Turkish sentiment is frankly deserved.., as horribly un-PC as that is to say out loud...

I'm like your husband..

This is Germany after all.. And however much we all like to complain about Germany - whether us Anglo-expats or Turks or whoever - well, it IS their country.. They have their norms, their preferences, their culture... It's their country and they can like what they want. My father in law maddens me sometimes cuz he doesn't want to eat anything his mother never served.. But hey, who am I to tell him to like Indian or Mexican food??

I think there is a perception too that with Turks that many come here and mooch off the state, while simultaneously refusing to integrate, looking down on the language and the notion of having to learn it, etc.. Go to most city centers (even dorfs..), and see the groups of especially young Turkish guys.. - i.e. the most visible part of the Turkish community, and a lot of anti-Turkish sentiment is frankly deserved.., as horribly un-PC as that is to say out loud... - and, unfortunately, however many good people are out working, taking care of kids, etc..

Does your right to live as you want trump my right to live as I want then?

Does RACISM (no idea why we are using capitals but what the hey) only go one way or could it possibly be true that there are some Turks/Americans/Africans etal that hate Germans based the same criteria you posted?

Why should I have to put up with behaviour and a lifestyle that I disagree with and in some cases actual disturbs my way of life? According to you they (general they here) don't have to change at all so why should I?

Live and let live is fine but it isn't possible as both sides need to adjust to the other and the attitude that they shouldn't have to and won't change is IMO one of the biggest problems on both sides.

"A damning report published in February found that although many Turks have been in Germany for nearly 50 years they are the least well integrated of all immigrant communities."

This says it all. Really.

If there are different levels of integration of the different immigrant communities how is it Germany's fault that the Turks are the ones with the worst integration?

Would'nt all be equally bad integrated if Germany is the one who does something wrong?

Or does someone really want to go down into the murky depths of explaining how Germany is more racistic towards turks than others. Any volunteers?

No? Thought so, because that would be a rediculous claim and impossible to proof.

I for one claim that the turkish immigrant community is the one that does more wrong than the others or Germany when it comes to integration.

The reasons? Cultural incommensurateness of which you can find much more between Turks and Germans than for instance between Russians or Poles and Germans.

Turkish nationalism, self chosen or taught by the parents is another very wide spread factor. While the neo nazis will tell you that a child born to turkish immigrants in Germany and therefore holding a german passport is not and will never be a German but is instead a Turk, i know at least a dozen Turks that will say exactly the same to you.

Ask them and they will say, "im a Turk with german passport !"

Taken all this into account, the message that most young Turks want to return to Turkey is good news. For both sides.

But ironically not really for Turkey as the unemployment rate there is at 15,5 % as of 2009.

And that without thousands of young turks coming over from Germany with many of them having no job education or even school qualifications.

Your German friends lived here as teenagers. As a teenager in Germany you will have your run in with turkish teen mobster mentality.

Ratio? probably 99% of all German teenagers. Generally it's a negative experience, often times violent. Call them preoccupied and closed racist, reality is there's a truth that goes both ways. Even when you have Turkish friends, you'll despise certain turkish youths.

If you grow up you'll learn about different angles, you mature, but a few pictures stay.

I have a Turkish friend who only moved here as a 26 year old (rare). He despises the little gangsters and tells me 100 times, they are anatolians. "OBVIOUSLY i'm from Istanbul".

Why are the Turks waiving their flag in that photo? I thought they wanted to integrate and live in Germany.

Well I like Germany because Germans are quite and reserved. The in your face happiness and noise of say Spain grates on me. Of course there's lots great about Spain like the hapiness. The noise is my problem, I don't visit Spain and complain about the loudness, except maybe to say awesome but loud. I always complain about availability of vegetarian food, which I really shouldn't.

So my solution, I live in a country that is more dour, but very efficient. I guess Germans think the same way (not about vegetarian food). If they liked lots of noise they'de make it themselves. They don't. You come as a guest to live in their country, and you have to fit in on this level. So no nude sun bathing in Qatar, no alcohol on a dry Aboriginal reserve, no forced marriages in Amsterdam. They don't do it themselves, don't like it, and you shouldn't do it.

MAM, all well and good for people just off the boat but what about the ethnic Turks who were born here? Do they have less of a right to live their life the way they see fit than an ethnic German?

See guys, that's the thing. I have yet to be witness to a group of Turks standing around talking about how the Germans ought to change for them. B…[/quote]We are using capitals because I want to emphasize the point, obviously. Speaking of things that go both ways, unPC is one of them. I know it's not PC to call racism but it is how I feel and I am not particularly ashamed of it.

Turks/Americans/Africans et. al "hate" Germans because Germans want to tell them how to be. Punkt.

When your neighbor disturbs you, why not take it up with the neighbor, instead of crying that all of his people should learn how to live in this country? It's absurd. Most RACISTS I have been in contact with have had very limited experiences with the people they are supposed to be shipping back to their own countries. Their prejudices are born out of ignorance and fear. RACISTS are the same anywhere, not just in Germany.Now here is a good point. My husband has also been through some of this and reported the same as you have. It is definitely something to consider.Klan members come to mind, telling 10th generation blacks to go "back" to Africa.

Turkish is not a race. What was described above as RACSIM! might be called bigotry or prejudice. it isn't racism, even keeping in mind that there are various definitions thereof. And if one says that people should always be able to be how they want, does that not also include allowing them to be Xenophobic and non-accepting of foreigners? Adjustment is required from both sides. A little more graciousness from the Germans, and a bit of self awareness and self control from the loud and boorish and socially unaware. I am loud and boisterous by nature as well. But as my Frau has rightly explained "Sometimes, you need to learn to shut up and stop acting like a goddamned monkey." Adjustment is needed from both sides. I guess the question here is who goes first.

A further complication to this discussion is that this board is made up of people from countries where joining up is normal. It is possible and normal to come from somewhere else, wait a bit, say the words, sign the papers and say "I am now ...British...Canadian...Australian...American...etc" and you are. Even France is supposed to have a purely political identity. It's important to remember that, when we talk about this because that is not the cultural norm for the either of the groups we are talking about. And the Germans are working on developing a mixed identity. But all the people with an ancestral identity haven't switched over to a political identity, and they might not. Are you going to force or reeducate them to think like you? And if they don't, then FRANKIE SAY OMG RACSIM HIDE YOURSELF!

From a basic perspective, we did use the words join up when referring to immigration in the commonwealth states or the US. When one joins a team or a group, it impetus to fit in is usually on the joiner. It is a given that someone new will bring a some sort of change to the group, but the joiner is usually responsible for making the first steps and literally "joining". Just showing up and expecting the people already there to bend over and grab their ankles is asking a bit much.

Regardless of how they got that way (I don't care to rehash the background of the myths of German origins) the Germans saw themselves until recently as a people or nation defined principally by ancestry with citizenship being based thereon.

Being "German" is now a mixed bag. It used to purely a matter of ancestry. You had German blood, roots, genes, call it what you want, and you were German. And being of German ancestry was what got you your political identity. Now you can have the German political identity without the ancestry. But to a lot of people (Germans and other) being German still involves the ancestral component. This works both ways. Not just from a German perspective, but from a Naturalized perspective as well.

And it should be mentioned that it is to the practical although not political advantage of Turkish residents (at least the young males) here to not take German Citizenship. By living here as permanent residents, they can avail themselves of the education system and social system, without serving in the military here (or zivildienst) or in the military back in Türkiye. Yes they pay taxes and they contribute to the country, of that there is no doubt. And unlike other debates elsewhere their legal status is not in question. But being a citizen is more than just receiving from the state. It entails assuming certain responsibilities. And if a group does not want to accept the political obligations of citizenship, it seems not legitimate for them to demand all of the perks and the upper hand in the integration balance as well. And that seems fair, because as non-citizens there are obligations they don't have to carry, and they are the ones asking to join up.

Anyhoo, at the end of the day, it isn't the end of the day. We are in the middle of a transitionary period and everything is up in the air right now. Making too many pronouncements is frankly premature. These processes are rocky. It could calm down, it could get rockier, before the Turkish people in Germany really are integrated (probable, but going to take a while) or if all the non-citizen Turks get shipped home (highly unlikely).

Oh Christ I suppose I will go through and read that at some point but there has already been a 445-page-long thread about what constitutes racism, honestly the pedantry is a snooze. Call it whatever you want.

I think just about every poster in the thread so far brings up one or more truthful observations on this issue...which is why integration is going to be a tough issue to tackle without some resentment/hurt feelings on either side. While I can't bring myself to agree with MoM that the German reputation for efficiency is still deserved in today's day & age (I agree with a post in another thread that it seems like today's german company seems to value the amount of work you do over the amount of results you produce), I do also believe that foreigners (including myself) who come to live here should at least make a real effort to their host nation to adapt to some new rules. I can tell you that some of the stuff that goes on here makes me wanna shake the crap out of the locals and say, "WTH do you put UP with this garbage??" but there are also some things that allow for a more relaxed lifestyle overall.

I think this issue, like many others, is just aching to be polarized and already has been in some people's minds due to, what else?, simple-minded thinking on both sides that's easily exploited. It's the football-team fanboi mentality that I've seen all too much as someone from a city that's the political hub of my home country. It's just a different flavor here. It's "We/our values are being invaded in our own country so why should WE..." vs. "We're being oppressed and treated as second-class citizens so why should WE..." when nobody is willing to admit to themselves that either they or people they associate with truly COULD BE racist OR COULD BE doing the exact things that they're being accused of like mooching off a system they didn't pay into or shoving their home country's flag into their host nations face.

Never, NEVER accept somebody telling you to stop acting like a monkey. Never.

Whatever it is you are doing that involves acting like a monkey, it is, by nature of it being monkeylike, hilarious. The world would be a much better place if we all spent just a little bit more time behaving like monkeys.

Imagine if you will a mind-numbingly boring ubahn journey though Munich. Now imagine how much better it would be if somebody stood up, made some hilarious monkey noises, then started flinging at other passengers, and picking fleas from an old ladies head for a snack. Comedy platinum right there.

ok rhyntyntyn, decent points made all around (although to be fair no one told Frankie to hide because of RACISM, but told Frankie to call a spade a spade, pedantics aside) but the post does exactly what I predicted many here would do, which is skirt around the actual issue at hand with all sorts of reasoning and logic and excuse-making.

When you ask your average, working-class Dieter P. Krautmann why he isn't comfortable with the Turks, his response will have little or nothing do with history or politics. He will tell you that he doesn't like the way they stand around on street corners, the way they bunch up in clusters, impervious to the famous German stare (or unstare for you unbelievers ), doing their own thing and not seeming to mind that the Germans want them to do things their way while they do it another.

My MIL is a very well-educated woman and even she will not sit and have a debate with you about the validity of forcing Turks to "integrate" (which means be more like Germans). She will tell you how she despises how loud they are on the train and describes their "schlitzaugen". My very good friend will not talk about cultural reciprocity. She will tell you how any culture that "forces" their women to wear hijabs must be evil. It is a visceral reaction and, while you make several good points, has little to do with anything you have written above.

Schlitzaugen? I thought that was for asians...

I know.

Depends on the kind of monkey though. You see I'm a monkey racist. I like Bonobos with their orgy lifestyles but the Chimpanzees are all just a bunch of organ grinding, funny hat wearing, violent bunch of rejects. This has been scientifically proven by the way.

Ya, you have a point. Considering what just happened in the states recently, you might induce a dangerous panic.

I recommend reading the press release link provided by Miwild (post #3). Interesting results. The differences between (German-)Turks and Germans are not so much about presumed national character traits, but values concerning family, society, religion. The German Turks are more conservative than the Germans, but less than the interviewees in Turkey. The different value set is inevitably at odds with that of the majoritarian society, which influences the degree of perceived integration.

What puzzles me is how the authors arrive at the suggestion of a "complete Turkish-language based education" (optional besides the existing German-language based) as a means to improve integration. According to them, German should be learned as a foreign language. IMO a misjudgement of the ability of children born here to become bilingual from the start.

Thanks Don. I will tell her that when I get home. Hopefully, there will be something I can stand behind. If I told her in the park, I could climb up a tree and hurl acorns at her. I will keep my options open. Sorry. That's speculation and has no place in any argument, unless you can prove it.Then she's a bigot. And you hang out with shitty people. That doesn't actually strengthen your argument by the way.

Pedantry is a big word used most often by people who don't want to learn all the other big ones, or by the same when they get called out for using them incorrectly. If you want to argue, say what you mean. Say exactly what you mean. And say it well. Otherwise, why are you bothering other than to bother?

It isn't ignoring the argument to put the impetus for joining on the joiners rather than the joined. I think it hits the nail squarely on the proverbial head.

Ook Ook.

The reasons you listed are also speculation. They are not bad guesses, but you also did not prove them.

Lots of people are bigoted. If I were to refuse to associate with anyone who had any prejudices or bigotries I would find myself very lonely indeed. I might not even hang out with myself.

I know what the word racism means, and I know what bigotry and prejudice mean. While we're making sweeping, condescending remarks I'll toss in my observation that people who use the phrase "big words" while talking down to other people are usually overly proud of their fairly average vocabularies.

Now there is no need to get nasty, but you are barking up the wrong tree, ryhntyntyn. If you continue to be personal about this I will just send my less-than-politely-worded responses to your inbox.

Pedantrasaurus Rex. I win!

Not cool. This isn't personal at all. It's just an argument. And if you want to curse at me privately that's your thing. It won't help your argument (right-hearted and wrong headed as it is) but if it makes you feel better, then I am all for it.

You are asserting something that will happen. "If you bring up the Turks, then Herr Arbeitsklasse Durchschnitt will tell you something racist." That's some heavy speculation there. It requires some proof, besides your say so or admittedly limited experience.

The idea that joining a group puts the impetus to fit in on the joiner, Is not a speculative statement. the statement stands on its own.

In addition you are advocating so strongly for the Turks in this that you are villanizing the Germans with a sweeping gesture and making the Turks into victims, which they are not. They were not brought here against their will nor were they here first nor are they descended from people who fit either category.

And all Germans aren't racist. All the people on every side of this argument are human beings with inherent rights and dignity. Your argument doesn't recognize that. In fact your argument advocates for one side specifically grounded in that side's right to be treated with dignity, based on the universality thereof, while denying dignity to the other side based on anecdotal personal experience with two whole people, which you then ascribe to the entire country. There is a disjoint there that I am asking you to work out.

If "racism" is wrong because it violates human dignity, because it makes people a victim of sweeping generalizations, and makes negative assumptions about them on account of arbitrary and stereotypical social constructions, which may not be true, how can you then base an argument against "racism" or prejudice using the same kind of argument? Especially without bucketloads of proof? i.e. "The Germans are all racist against the Turks and that's just not right."

Swing or go back to the dugout. If you want to curse me out go ahead. But I am not the one who rushed in to this without thinking, and painted myself into a corner, that would be you Picasso. So paint yourself out.

Um yeah, "you know shitty people" isn't personal, and telling me that I'm too ignorant to use the word "racism" correctly, blah blah blah. I agree that isn't cool.

Unfortunately you appear to be a very literal person. If I make an observation, I am required by you to illustrate every side of the issue and attach a disclaimer that I am talking about my opinion which is not based on scientific research. That, for many people, is a given. We are posting to a forum about life in Germany. It is likely that a large portion of posts here will be about people's experiences living in Germany.

I am not asserting that anything will happen; saying that Krautmann will say this or that is a manner of speaking which conveys my observation that many of them have said that. Again, is your world really so literal?

I can see how it looks like I have been advocating the Turks, especially because it has been necessary to clarify my opinions regarding them. Another reason could be that it is indeed the case. I am advocating the Turks. Live with it.

Please quote where I said "all Germans are racist."

Please note that I didn't give racism a value, or decide why it was wrong. As a matter of fact, I go on to say that pretty much everyone I know, including myself, are guilty of such crimes against humanity as prejudice and bigotry. Racism is not better or worse than either of those. So it is obvious that I recognize that everyone on either side of the argument is human. Except you. You are the one person on the face of the earth who harbors no prejudices or bigotries and doesn't know anyone who does either.

Unfortunately for you, my friend, painting yourself into a corner involves having to admit that you cannot stand by your original statement. My original statement, as you noted, appeared to be advocating the Turks.

I am still advocating the Turks. You would like rust the gears of the conversation by obsessing on what are either irrelevant or wholly fabricated concepts.

I don't know you, OK? I don't know your background, and for the sake of argument, you ought to realize that you don't know mine. The amount of racism I have encountered here as a black person has been astounding. So common that it's almost funny. Almost. I am not a habitual RACISM-caller, I don't cry wolf that way. I am saying it because I believe it to be true, not in order to cause unnecessary alarm and hysteria.

In long conversations on this very subject with German natives, I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to how/why exactly the Turks should change for the Germans. I also make no bones about the fact that I don't think they should have to.

If you move to another country, you should:

1. Learn their language

2. Obey their laws

3. Refrain from intentionally and unnecessarily offending them or flouting their basic customs.

How does the average German-based Turk fail to do those things? He learns the language, obeys the laws, and commits no social crimes aside from being who he is. He doesn't rape children or skin cats alive. People are pissed off because Turks refused to leave Turkey behind. I support them 100%.

Diversity is good for a people. Take the U.S. for example. The richest, most interesting places filled with the most progressive, open-minded people are the places full of foreigners and their cultural influences. Your blue states are the ones in the middle, your sundown towns, your Jew-free communities. Take Berlin for example. The Nazis hang around in the whitest, most homogenous areas. Their racism can't bud and grow in a more diverse environment.

The Turks aren't breaking any social codes besides opening their stores and... um... well... that's it actually.

What exactly are they supposed to do in order to integrate? What is expected of them? They eat, sleep, work, , marry, procreate, worship, hope, love, and dream just like any German. What more are they supposed to do? Pretend to be German? Give up Islam? Move into whiter neighborhoods where they won't be welcome?

I am also not a fan of the idea that the average man considers himself to be in a position to decide how his fellow man should live, aside from observing basic decency. The argument that one should do as the Germans do when in Germany is absurd. Germans do things differently in every part of Germany. But because they all have the same skin color and speak the same language, this is OK, right? Where I come from it is considered backwards to allow someone to come to your country, then force them to abandon their customs as they are not welcome in this country. "You all are being a bit too Chinese down there, can you please cook some steak for dinner instead of tofu, eat with a fork, listen to country music, put your grandma in a home, and wear your shoes inside like normal people?" What. the. .

I am thoroughly exhausted with this conversation. But to summarize:

I stand behind the Turks, and their right to live however they please as long as they are not breaking any rules or exploiting any resources.

This is very true. I have Turkish friends here, but there are times when on the U-bahn at night mostly I have felt very uncomfortable when there are these little wannabe gangsters who are actually about my age trying to show off to their naive little girlfriends by making ridiculous amounts of noise, TRYING to make people feel threatened and even saying things like how Germany is, I have heard them making open threats (not to anyone specific) and just behaving like little neds whose face I would gladly see punched in...horrible thought I know, but when you feel threatened minding your own business then it does make you angry and I can really understand why Germans might feel some animosity towards people like that (not just Turkish).

As for integration, well I really think it has to work both ways, I also think that if you are the immigrant then you should be expected to make a bit more effort to integrate into your host country, for your own happiness really. I don't expect Germans to learn about my culture or adapt to my ways of doing things...why should they, I came here by choice.

Why not say that you don't like aggressive people? I see groups of German kids on the train doing the EXACT SAME THING, with the possible exception of bashing Germany. But no one says "Oh man Germany is in a bad place, looks at how those Germans are acting." We say "wow kids can be idiots sometimes."

Why is it that when a Turkish kid bashes Germany he is an ungrateful little bastard, but when an American kid bashes America he's just a bit emo? Neither kid asked to be born or moved to where he is.

Christ on a cracker I'm getting sucked into this conversation which exactly where I didn't want to be. Leaving now.

Actually I didn't attack Turkish people. I have Turkish friends and I don't like aggressive people making me feel uncomfortable. What I said was that in my experience I have noticed this behaviour from younger Turkish people, the same as I notice it from NEDS back home and it pisses me off immensely. I am no way racist and have friends from alot of different countries, I used to date a guy from saudi arabia so am in no way narrow-minded when it comes to muslims from anywhere. All I said was I can understand why Germans (especially of the older generation) might find it difficult to accept.

No normal German that I know would expect any foreigner here to leave their culture behind, I certainly haven't and don't intend to, I share my culture with my German friends and they share theirs with me, all people expect is for foreigners to make a little bit of effort to learn the language and enjoy the culture a little, I don't see any harm in that. But when I hear Turkish teenagers or even grown adults openly insult Germany/Germans in public then I get pissed off and think it's downright disrespectful, and if they don't like it that much they should leave.

I think this topic is becoming a little heated, nobody is saying Turkish people are all bad, just that integration should be an effort made by both.

Because Turks make up %5 of the population, but stand out A LOT more because of these little anti-social scumbag shitheads at S-bahn stations, on the trains, spitting on the sidewalk in the city center, lurking around shopping centers, making lewd comments to young girls, etc etc... Plus it is fundamentally different when Germans misbehave. It's Germany, after all.. Hard to imagine large numbers of Germans or even Brits for that matter misbehaving in places like Turkey... Oh wait.. Naja, holiday-goers flooding Turkey with money is one thing.. Turks living in Germany and acting all entitled to everything, WHILE disproportionately large numbers of them are acting like scumbags at the S-bahn stations, etc.. is something else.. Again, some of the criticism is deserved.

Turkish? How do you know? I bet most are German.

You're brand new to this whole internet aren't you?

Everyone knows what comes next....Bingo!

Brilliant. The "how can I be a racist, loads of my friends are black" argument. We all love it.Only a relevant point if the topic is "Men from Saudi Arabia have small penises". Actually, that'd be a good topic for friday afternoon. You should start it up.

Germans. Immune to criticism of any kind in their own country...you heard it here folks, we'd better pack up TT.

Actually that was me. Sorry.

Only a relevant point if the topic is "Men from Saudi Arabia have small penises". Actually, that'd be a good topic for friday afternoon. You should start it up.[/quote]Are you talking from personal experience there ...I guess I just got lucky.

"Um yeah, "you know shitty people" isn't personal, and telling me that I'm too ignorant to use the word "racism" correctly, blah blah blah. I agree that isn't cool."

So telling you that you are wrong, or pointing out the obvious is personal. Right. If you can't take the heat...

You are the one who told us about the blatantly shitty things your supposedly well educated MIL said. And your "friend" said Turks are slitty eyed. And you hang out with people who say such things. And then you get offended when you get called on that? Seriously? You must be joking. That is your problem. Not mine.

I am not asserting that anything will happen; saying that Krautmann will say this or that is a manner of speaking which conveys my observation that many of them have said that. Again, is your world really so literal?

Bullshit. Bullshit. and Double Bullshit. When you say literal, you seem to mean that you won't be held to have said what you said. That's like me walking into a room and saying " you all!" and then going, "but that is just my way of saying hello."

I don't know you, OK?

Yes. that is ok with me.

If you move to another country, you should:

1. Learn their language -

2. Obey their laws -

3. Refrain from intentionally and unnecessarily offending them or flouting their basic customs.

You mean like being quiet in public?

How does the average German-based Turk fail to do those things? He learns the language, obeys the laws, and commits no social crimes aside from being who he is. He doesn't rape children or skin cats alive. People are pissed off because Turks refused to leave Turkey behind. I support them 100%.

None of that is a problem.And it isn't what is on the table. But there is no legitimacy to demanding 100% political enfranchisement when you are still X% loyal to another country. And even less to them demanding more work on the German's part if you admit that the Turks want to not integrate int he first place. You don't make any sense.

And Blue states are a myth. The US is mostly purple.

The argument that one should do as the Germans do when in Germany is absurd.

Didn't you just say "3. Refrain from intentionally and unnecessarily offending them or flouting their basic customs."

So which is it?

Germans do things differently in every part of Germany. But because they all have the same skin color and speak the same language, this is OK, right? Where I come from it is considered backwards to allow someone to come to your country, then force them to abandon their customs as they are not welcome in this country. "You all are being a bit too Chinese down there, can you please cook some steak for dinner instead of tofu, eat with a fork, listen to country music, put your grandma in a home, and wear your shoes inside like normal people?" What. the. .

Your anti-asian stereotypes are highly offensive.



I stand behind the Turks, and their right to live however they please as long as they are not breaking any rules or exploiting any resources.

So you don't stand behind them at all then. We all exploit resources. Just by living. And no one said they can't live as they please. But if they decide to never integrate, then they should accept the fact they will forever feel like a half foreign caste, because by refusing to integrate, that is exactly what they will be and how they will stay. Just beat it...just beat it beat it...ooh.

Cannot believe how long-winded most people are - do they feel they have to write is thesis on this? Just reading it explains it all, although must say bored me to death after the first 2 sentences.

All citizens should feel welcome and part of society. One key path towards inclusiveness and recognition is through education via schools, universities and media - after all the Turkish people had a huge part in the history and culture of south east and central Europe (just think of coffee, architecture, Mozart's Rondo Alla Turka etc etc). However such education must be honest - just as Germans have acknowledged the German crimes of the WW2 Holocaust (30 million Slav, Jewish and Gypsy dead, this including 5-6 million Jews, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) they need to address the precursor German Namibian Genocide (German extermination of 0.1 million Hereros and Namas of South West Africa 1903-1907) and the current Afghan Genocide in which Germany is complicit ( post-invasion non-violent excess deaths from deprivation 3.2 million; violent deaths up to 4 million; post-invasion under-5 infant deaths 2.3 million, 3-4 million refugees plus a further 2.5 million Pashtun refugees generated under Obama in NW Pakistan). Germans, Turks and Turkish Germans must also acknowledge the Armenian Genocide in which German ally Turkey murdered an estimated 1.5 million Armenians in WW1, this inspiring Hitler's subsequent WW2 genocide of Slavs, Jews and Gypsies in Eastern Europe.

I guess I should join this argument, being a Turk, but I'm just sick and tired. Don't want to hear the words: integration, "our" values, "our" culture, race or religion for a while. Das Volk is just provoked and it is just a waste of time for humanity.

Enjoy the debate.

I had a turkish friend once. She was quite pretty.....

Well let's send 3 million Germans to Turkey and see how much Turkey would do to integrate them.

There is no way Turks will ever integrate with Germans even if they live in Germany for hundreds of years.My reason for saying this comes from Muslim's Quran.Sura 5:51"Believers,take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends and protectors,for they are friends and protectors of one another.Whoever of you seeks their friendship and supports them,shall become one of their number.Allah does not guide the wrong doers." So you see in Islam ,muslims are forbidden to have friends with non believers. Yes Turkish men will befriend naive German women to marry them only when they convert to Islam. Sura 2:193,"Fight against them(Kaffirs,Infidels) until idolatry is no more,and Allah's religion reigns supreme." So my dear German friends wake up and realise that if you don't take control of the Muslim population of Germany ,then one day muslims will take over Germany through populating. see www.blip.tv/file/1382254 www.thereligionofpeace.com www.faithfreedom.org

I don't know about majority. There are quite a few young Turks at my workplace. They don't seem to have any trouble speaking German but when they hang out together during breaks, they speak a mixture of German and Turkish.

Like the Germans did in Namibia and Tanganyika?

Of course the British integrated - I saw lawrence of Arabia!!!!

But generally the natives prefer to Ape us, see Mugabi and other leaders wearing European suits and ties. I think we would have more respect for them if they stuck to their own customs as in Saudi Arabia but I saw only a few expats wearing the local fashion.

How many Europeans working in Africa speak the lingo or even mix with the locals?

I brought up this topic in a mixed group night before last (Australian, Brit, German, and me, all from different social backgrounds) and after we batted around different points of view, we decided that two areas remain unclear, and no one seems to want/be able to clarify them.

1. What does "integration" mean? What exactly does it mean? Detailed, specific descriptions of the actions required are missing.

2. If what the people calling for "integration" mean "assimilation", why don't they just say so? Are they afraid it will make them look intolerant? Why pussyfoot around saying what it is they really want?

ryhntyntyn, I am not going to fight with you. I am here to discuss the topic at hand. Your being "highly offended" at my "anti-asian" stereotypes makes it clear that you are not here to discuss the topic at hand but to pick fights and squabble, as there is nothing offensive about saying that non-assimilated Asians eat tofu, leave their shoes outside, or take care of their grandparents (having grown up with Asians and gone to schools where Asians outnumbered whites I do not consider myself ignorant about the domestic situations of immigrant and first-generation Asians). If anything, you might take offense at my stereotype of Americans as country-music listening carnivores who don't care about their relatives and couldn't eat with chopsticks to save their lives. But to correct you on a couple of things:

• I cannot choose my in-laws.
  
  
• It was the MIL and not the friend that said the thing about the slit-eyes.
  
  
• The friend thought she was going to bat for Muslim women but was really just showing an intolerance of Islam, which is much more widespread than you appear to realize and does not make one a "shitty" person, just not so open-minded or educated about Islam.
  
  
• Turks are not the only people who are not quiet in public and are not the only people who stand around on street corners being obnoxious; and I rarely (read: never) see them drunk or high all day, panhandling for beer money in front of the Rathaus.
  
  
• The double standard expected of Turks--that they should be model citizens while native Germans get to behave as poorly as they want--shows an intolerance of the people, not the behavior.
  
  

Just when I was about to toss in my two-cents, I read what dessa wrote about Integration and took a moment to look it up. Great thought worthy of consideration.

According to Merriam Webster:

1 : to form, coordinate, or blend into a functioning or unified whole : unite

2 : to find the integral of (as a function or equation)

3 a : to unite with something else b : to incorporate into a larger unit

4 a : to end the segregation of and bring into equal membership in society or an organization

I came to Germany in June 1988 (yep, over 21 years ago) from a very small town in Texas. I drove a pick-up truck, chewed tobacco and drank cheap beer while in college. I had an opportunity to come here and thought it a nice adventure. I took an immediate liking to Germany and plan to never return to Texas.

Not once in all this time have I asked Germany to bow to my upbringing. I've never once asked that this country create something for me to remind me of home, or bend for me, or "hey, let me tell you how we do it in the USA". I get frustrated when I can't find something I'd like to have that I recalled from earlier years at home. When I go to the Rathaus I'm frustrated by the bureaucracy, but that is just how it is.

How people can go to another foreign country - of their own accord - and want that country to change for them and adhere to their fundamental ideas is a concept I just don't get. My mother's family was Mexican and we'd travel to Mexico a lot when I was younger to visit. I knew I never wanted to live there, but if I did what would give me the righ to demand that the country bend to me and not the other way around? If you don't like it, get out!

If we choose definition number 4, above, then in order for the Turkish to end segregation and and bring into equal membership of "this" society, then they need to be the ones to bend to German values and life style and not vice versa.

Germany has no choice but to live with the no borders style (or be accused of being N!@#'s) and so long as that continues, people will flood this place and will continue to belly-ache. I'm disheartened by the lack of acceptance and tolerance in people today. The "I want" and "I demand" and "it's my right" is so over-used and so wrong.

I wonder. If I went to Turkey and was invited to a work colleague's home and they served something for dinner I didn't care for. Should I eat it gracefully and thank them for the meal, or should I act like a spoiled child and tell them that I prefer chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes and green beans, and a bottle of whisky? Which version would get me invited back...

Agree with your husband. Call me racist..come on..impess me..

SPARKLING, I was waiting to read your response. Like you, I think this is pointless it's just going to go around and around in circles and pop back up in a few months. Wow there seem to be a lot of topics about turks on TT, has me thinking that "The Local" really has something against Turkish people.

For us that are talking about Turks, why don't we take a look at ourselves, I know most of us are always complaining about the germans and how they are miserable people, how they are rude, how they don't smile, how they are not polite and helpful, yet we feel it's ok for us to complain because we are Americans, or British or Canadian, or Australian. that's a bit two faced don't you think? Some of us have been here for 20+ years married to germans, and are still complaining about them.

I don't see any need for anyone to integrate, I like being my American self, and I have no desire to integrate into the German soceity. I will Pay my taxes, Learn their language, Obey their laws, and be tolerant of things that they do that I might not do. In the US I love that we have people from different cultures, it's almost a way for us to travel without even having to travel. I would not want everyone to act the same and be the same way in America.

Someone mentioned that the Turkish men do not get German citizenship so that they can avoid serving in the military here and in turkey, well you are WRONG turkish men have to serve in the Turkish military, and before they can give up their turkish passport to attain a German passport, they must have already served in the military.

Another person mentioned about turks bring nothing to germany and want to get all the benefits, while germans go to turkey and flood it with money. LOL you must be kidding me. Why dont' you check to see who is working to make sure the old germans can get their pension, since the germans dont' seem to want to have kids to keep their population going. You will find the Turks in every integral part of the German economy, trying to get rid of turkish people in germany is like cutting the nose to spite the face.

Lets get over this whole Turkish people Integrating into germany debate, it's pointless and it seems even the Germans dont' have time to debate this, seems like it's the jobless people on TT that are always starting these debates, talking about other cultures and judging them while acting as if their Sh&* don't stink, I know mine does, cause I smell it two to three times a day.

HondoMan, thanks for taking time to consider. Do you have any ideas as to what "bending to German values and lifestyle" ought to encompass? What specific steps should Turks take to bend to German values and lifestyle?

Do you personally believe that Turks expect Germans to bend to their values and lifestyle?

It would be cool to have clear, straightforward answers to these questions.

I really hoped to stay away from this thread... Right on Dessa. I often get this self-righteous, snobbish, intellectual-sounding, superficial "but the Turks should integrate into our culture" rhetoric, and when I ask what they mean by integration, they are never, I mean NEVER, able to explain what it means. And if they are to utter a few words, I notice these definitions of integration vary from German to German.

Now, I personally don't believe anybody wants Turks to integrate or assimilate. Let's be honest here. I believe Germans want Turks to leave/disappear/stop existing here in Germany. It's allowed that we host Germans in Turkey and serve them over there.

Whoever wrote about Germans spending millions in Turkey is CLUELESS. German tourists prefer to buy a packaged vacation from a German tour operator, stay in a German hotel chain while in Turkey, and never purchase anything from outside. My good German friend, who makes over six figures a year, is very proud that she spent only 14EUR during her last trip there. Another one bitches about being ripped off, because she as a tourist has to pay 7EUR to visit a museum in Istanbul while Turks pay 2EUR. Now, obviously you have never been invited by a Turkish family. Those who preach the most against the Turks are usually the ones who have never been to Turkey or have never had Turkish friends. I give it to you, we are a very diverse and colorful bunch, it's not easy to understand us. But any decent Turkish family can show you what Turkish hospitality means.

Your definition of integration is also very vague. I don't believe this is what majority of Germans have in mind. I think many just want to say "I just don't like Turks and I want them to leave/disappear/not exist here", but they are too afraid to be called a Nazi/racist, so they go for the integration rhetoric. I don't think they have something against Turks, many people are just curious. They hear contradicting things from media, from people. Some people…[/quote]Yes there are some Turks who expect that. For example, I know for a fact that there is a fraction of conservative Turks in Koeln, possibly also in Berlin, who want their girls not to attend the gym classes with the boys. Well, they don't represent the ideas of 70+ million Turks. People like me do struggle with them as well.

Imagine people in Turkey thinking Germans=neo nazis. What Germans are doing is exactly this. While trying to define the Turks, they are oversimplifying us, and unfortunately with a negative tone.

Neo-nazis do not make up as proportionately much of the German population as do Muslims, non-assimilating, antisocial, and otherwise out-of-place Turks in Germany, etc etc do of the Turkish..

The "negative tone" is created by the young Turks on the streets of towns and villages across Germany going out of their way to not fit in.

I will feel safer being surrounded by teenage turks anyday then been surrounded by teenage germans.

Turks are a great and wonderful nation of people, who I might add once ruled a huge part of the world.

I've seen so much Anti-Turkish things going on, it's amazing. I've had Germans sitting in front of my wife and I talking about how turkish people are this and how turkish people are that, I usually just let them go on and on and on for a while, then I tell them Yeah my wife is Turkish... Then they get a "oh crap" look on their face and try to back pedal with the usual "i'm not racist or anything, I have turkish friends" or "I like turkey it's a nice place I went there last year" I guess my wife does not fit the "typical" turkish look they expect, she isnt' wearing a hijab and keeping her head down.

Seriously though I think if anything Germans need to learn that 1 person does not speak for everyone, if that is the case we could take Hitler and say all Germans are nazi and they are all evil.

oh BTW : I liked your response very much Sparkling I'm glad you on here speaking up cause seems a lot of people only have negative things to say about the Turkish community. I guess a few rotten apples will try to spoil the whole bunch.

God..

I also let them go on and on and on and on and on... When I say that I am in fact Turkish, the conversation almost always ends as you say: "I'm not racist or anything, I have a Turkish friend, I vacation in Antalya, etc."

Come on! Grow a spine!

I really am stopping writing to this thread. In my real life, both professional and private, I have to deal with being a Turk in Germany all the time. I want to have time and energy left to discuss things that are just interesting for me, like apple crisps, like solar, like yogurt, like economic crisis, like Merkel's politics, like Erdogan and Gul and their wives...

I also don't think the Turkish residents of Germany should integrate/assimilate if they don't want. But if a group does not want to integrate/assimilate, then it isn't very legitimate to complain about not being integrated/assimilated.

And about feeling unwelcome or like outsiders among the Germans. They are. As most people on this board are. And if they stay outside i.e. don't integrate themselves, they will stay outsiders and actually should feel that way.

The thing is, these old European countries, they are not immigrant nations like the US or Canada so unless you are white and have a German name, you will always be an outsider, no matter how much you try to integrate. A Turkish family could live exactly like a German family but they will always be seen as Turkish because they might look Turkish or at least they have Turkish names. You can never fully integrate here unless you are lily white, speak perfect German and change your name to Helmut.

Now, I am new here so I can't say I fully understand the relationship between Germany and the Turkish immigrants and I don't actually have any Turkish friends and I don't go there on vacation so there. From what I've heard a couple of Germans say, it bothers them that there are Turkish neighbourhoods where people can live their lifes as if they were in Turkey. Now, I can totally understand that but how to deal with that is another thing entirely. IMO Germany needs to at least make sure their kids get the same opportunities as German kids. Other than that, I am not really sure what, if anything, they should do about it. Not saying that all Turks live in such a neighbourhood, I have no idea how common they are.

Another thing that I have seen at my integration course is a tendency by some groups to bring their entire village over by intermarriage. Two guys from my integration course were cousins, they both came over by marriage, they proudly said that 120 people from their family were already in Germany. They said they had other cousins joining the next integrations course. Their future plans seemed to include Harz IV and 1? jobs. Now something like that, I could understand would piss some Germans off. I'm sure not all Turkish people in Germany are doing that either but when looking at a big group of people, it's very easy to point out the ones who are doing something you don't like and assume the rest of them are the same.

Knowing two elementary teachers, plus a few more teachers in family, turkish or arab first graders often get into school

with non sufficent german at best. Not all, but a good portion. The language at home in many families is the one

of the country of origin, even though in third generation. To a degree there's total neglect of German. That

is a key point why some fall behind in school and stick to themselves. With many young turks you hear the language

problem, even though their parents came to Germany as children. But to point fingers at the families is often times seen as racist.

How could a mother with almost zero german teach their kids the tongue of the new homecountry?

She could try. She would have to learn herself. But how does the mother learn German so she can support her kids speaking it, if she is forbidden to speak to anyone who doesn't pass the husband's or her culture's rather conservative restrictions?

The mom or dad don't have to teach the kids alone, but they need to support the kids' use of German. They have to commit. Even if they do, it's going to be an uphill battle. Without parental support though, it's going to lead to a lot of wasted potential.

Again, I think it comes down to a decision. Either decide to be here and stay here and join up. Commit to the Republic so to speak, and become German. This means leaving the old country behind.

Or go home and reintegrate there.

Or, stay here and don't integrate/assimilate and take the lumps and remain on the periphery of society, because there will be lumps and those lumps are somewhat deserved. It makes no sense to willingly move to a country but hate the people there, never integrate and complain. Move to Germany and hate the Germans if you must. Take advantage of everything the country has to offer, but be prepared to integrate/assimilate or stay on the Fringe.

Any state that would actually allow an immigrant population to move in and set up a separate state within a state is asking for serious political problems in the long term.

How do you 'disallow' it though - we hear the same comments about Mexicans in the southern US, but its not like you can legislate that immigrants have to speak the lingua franca.

why does everyone seem to think that turkish men are opressing their wives and daughters? From the tons and tons and tons of turkish families that I know, I have NEVER come across a woman that is being opressed by her man. oh and EVERY turkish woman that I know speaks both Turkish and German, and some even speak English also.

People like to think of themselves as being above others, and that's not how it works.

I think a lot of germans when they go to turkey for vacation or to live there for a year or so, they tend to stay in their own little communities, they vacation amongst themselves, and In a way I think they feel superior to the turkish community and feel they should not join with them, SO maybe when they see turkish people keeping to themselves here in Germany, it pisses them off to think that the Turkish people think that they are better than Germans so they shouldn't join with them.

Funny I never hear Turkish people in Turkey complaining about Germans who come to turkey live there for a year or two, don't pay taxes, don't learn the language, and at the day just leave. If all the Turkish people living in Germany were to up and leave, Germany's whole economy will come crashing down instantly.

Your tailbone is one of the smaller bones in your body, but you break that bone and see how it hurts you and see how limited your movement is.

You don't need to. But don't be surprised if your chances in life are lesser.

With your 'streetwise' lingo you're not going to get a proper job.

Which pretty much hits the nail right on the head. Prohibiting non-integration isn't really possible short of mass deportations (not likely) and not really necessary. The solution is possibly as simple as saying "Don't want to integrate? No Problem" and then being very very clear about what that means both politically and economically and then sticking to that. The state within a state solution is not something I would suggest for any state that wants to maintain domestic tranquility.

I don't see the Turkish community as really living up to their responsibilities as guests or would-be Germans here. If they want in, then they need to come in, instead of sitting outside and bitching about how no one wants them in. And if they don't want in, fine, but why complain then?

I think maybe an extended solution is for the Germans to continue to develop the political identity, as opposed to a purely ethnic identity. Then, if people want to come and stay, they can, but they have to join the club to get the full benefits of living here. That means that old allegiances have to go. The joiners have to join. But the state should also do their part and better fund primary remedial education for the kids to have a chance and maybe offer more in terms of adult oriented language programs so the parents can support the kids.

This is all dependent on the Germans deciding that they still want a large foreign non-integrated population here for the duration. Maybe they don't, who knows? Has anyone asked them?

(attached image)(attached image)

Possibly people in Germany see this type of thing happening here...in fact Europe is threatened here (Europe You Will Pay")....I am guessing that a lot of these people are also British born and raised??

Point is a lot of people don`t want to integrate,many Turks are no exception.But what are we all doing on Toytown??Writing in English,a precondition for posting. A lot of Turks work in family businesses and serve the Turkish community,they see no need to integrate,need no German skills or only basic skills.There are sure cunts among them,but you find that in every culture/country.To see a need for integration is a value judgement for the individual and cannot be as such enforced. How many native English speakers would fail in a decent German language test? Or know all the Bundesländer and their capitals. How many ex-pats seek out Irish pubs instead of going to a normal German bar? Integration is a feeling,a culture and not something that can be described in statistics and percentages.The Turks probably come better clear with the German experience than many Russians,Croatians and other Eastern cultures.The western E.U.countries and USA also seem to think that there is not such a big integration challenge for them in Germany. I beg to differ!!! Is it just a question of money? Most integration issues seem to be only talked about in terms of poorer countries or immigrants. If you have money it`s no problem or???????? Mind you there are a lot of rich Russians and Turks out there!!!They don`t integrate either but are anway hated as they are obviously mafia types!!! Stinks of paradoxical bullshit to me.

It's not like this topic isn't bolloxxed up enough as it is, but I'd like to add that people asking to be integrated in a different country is a bit ridiculous, wouldn't you agree?

How many of you try to find your way around and make new friends when visiting or staying in a foreign country? Turks aren't in any way barred from participating in social life in germany. Just as some of you try and learn the lingo, so could they, and they wouldn't even have to pay. Believe me, there is a world of a difference between trying to fit in and forming enclaves.

These (by which I am referring to the turkish minority that defies every attempt at integration) aren't educated people looking for a spot at one of our universities - by and large they are just following family members into the welfare state that is the GDR.

I'll say it again: If they want to integrate, there is nothing stopping them. I have plenty of turkish friends who are teachers, merchants, doctors, scholars. It's the unedecated majority - which is what turks of higher education chose to refer to as "mountain folk" - which is causing problems, not turks in general. If you look closely, most calls for integration aren't aimed at the state, but at the turks.

So that's that.

There is a reason why turkeys attempts to become a member of the EU have been rejected so far.

Why should she? Would you expect a US or UK mother in Germany to try to speak German with her kids?

It's generally accepted that parents teach their kids their first language, for one reason for them to learn it so that they can talk to their grandparents and other relatives, for another that the parent will not be teaching their kids a language they speak imperfectly for the kids to learn bad grammar etc. In most cases, the kids will learn the language of the host country from other kids in daycare or in school. Of course this will be harder when the kids aren't in daycare because their mom is a stay home and they live in a neighbourhood where all the other kids are also Turkish.

In most cases, people integrate. When a family moves to Germany from say the US, I think it's fairly unlikely that their kids will at a later time go back to old country to look for a spouse to bring back. Many Turkish people seem to do that, re-enforcing their childrens Turkish heritage so instead of becoming more and more German, they just stay Turkish.

In my opinion, there isn't really much to do about it but to help the kids at least have the opportunity to get an education, they could have special classes for them to catch up on their German and they should do away with their ancient system of sorting out the kids who are "university material" in grade 4. For foreign kids, it's often just not enough time to catch up.

Barkingmad, you brought up some excellent points. I for one am someoen who will NEVER integrate myself into the German system, yet they will never complain about me because I am american.

LeoneG you also brought up some very good points. My wife and I will most likely NOT have kids here in Germany, but in the slight chance that we do, they will first learn English and Turkish. NOT german. Most importantly I want them to be able to communicate with US and the Family, not have to worry about communicating with strangers. I will expose them to German by playing kids learning material in German like letting them watch Sesame Street in German, or Barney in German or Dora the explorer. Though I will never really focus on teaching them German, I'll let them learn that at school, and trust me with the Jacked up school system that they have here in Germany, my kids most likely will NOT be attending a German public school, or a School in Germany for that matter. We will rather move to turkey and enroll them in a private bilingual school.

Lastly @ TooMuchSky, when you say "our" Universities, i'll assume you consider yourself German. Then what the hell are you doing on TT, dont' you know that TT is for us ENGLISH speakers that do not want to integrate into the German system, so we come on here and talk to each other and ask each other questions, If we wanted to integrate ourselves in the German system, we would have German friends, and do German things, and walk around with a grumpy look on our face, and stare at people for no good reason, and would be quick to want to tell someone that they are breaking the rules, yet turn around and break one ourselves........ Why would anyway want to Integrate themsleves into the German system?

In the US we are an open nation, we accept many different cultures and we do not expect to change them, we welcome their individuality and use that to create a more diverse nation of Americans.

God Bless America and the UK and Turkey

God bless Germany.

maybe they just don't like you very much.

Look, I don't have any kids of my own, and I guess neither do you. But wouldn't *you* try and teach your child the local language if you knew you were in for the long haul? If you're not proficient yet, it's as good a reason as any to catch up. Precisely *because* you want your child to connect in kindergarten and in school, having friendships etc instead of being an outcast?

If you can't provide that yourself, there are *free as in beer* courses for adults and preschoolers alike. A friend from Iran joined school in Germany w/o knowing a single german word, and within a year he'd become absolutely fluent thanks to the classes. It really is a shame though that many turks can't be bothered to take these courses.Look, I can't tell if you forgot the irony tags on that post, but I suggest you read up on the *exact* purpose of TT, then come back and quote the "sod Germany" passage you seem to think is there. To quote from an american TV show: "If you don't like this country, you can just get out". Nuff said. Seriously, don't make me point to your mexican border and make you eat your words about that open nation of yours.

In reference to most of the above, I think it should be said that there is a difference (albeit slight in some cases) between just trying to fit-in, integrate, and assimilate. And depending on what you want from your German experience, one of these or another should apply.** If you are sent over here with work and it's clearly temporary then the amount of integrating (for you and your family) will be less then someone who is here for an an as yet unknown, but not permanent amount of time, versus someone who settles here and demands/wants full political enfranchisement.

Germany is a nice country. It has nice things (buildings and mountains and trees and beer) and other nice things (social structures) and then there are the Germans. Admittedly grumpy, but I happen to like the Germans. Quite a bit actually. I think they are neat. But I live in Bavaria, and we are pretty happy down here. But I digress... Nice things...then there are the Germans. But they built it. It belongs to them.

Unless you are in a temporary situation, if you want to stay here long term, because it's nice, but, you hate the Germans, then you shouldn't be here*. It's theirs. A country is a government, a territory and a people. Liking 2 out of 3 isn't good enough. It's a package deal. So take all three, or call Hapag Lloyd and go somewhere with nicer people. The rest of us will keep on trying to terraform the rocky Martian landscape that is the post modern German soul. And guess what suckers, hate will just beget more of the same. And the Germans are good at hate. The only thing that works is love. So if you want to change them for the better, settle down and love them into loving you back. Otherwise get out.

*exception should also be made for Expaticus and other people who are here because they love(d) a German and feel like they don't have a choice.

** Of course not fitting in, or none of the above is an option as well. But don't set yourself up as a pariah and then complain about how lonely it is. If you want to be a rebel, then take responsibility.

Well said..

Lol, you've never lived in the South have you. Replace 'Turk' with 'Mexican' and we could have this same thread in the US.Not to mention the headache of having the little shits be able to talk to each other in a language you don't understand is just asking for trouble.

lilplatinum, when was the last time you lived in the south?.. Mexicans are everywhere, and are far more "integrated" and mainstream than Turks are here.. Everybody gets Mexicans to cut their grass, and goes to Mexican restaurants.................. Ha ha.. Na, but in my bank last time, I was the only non-white person.. Spanish was the first language, etc..

So ridiculous how the entire south is the brunt of such prejudice... Kind of like Turks, I suppose...

1996-2007. I agree Mexicans are everywhere, but you hear rednecks bitching about how they need to integrate, how they don't speak English, the same from this thread. I agree people are hypocrites, they will bitch about the Mexicans incessantly but when it comes time to move to a new house they will drive to the corner store and put a few in the back of their pickups.

But integrated? They live in their own communities, often speak limited Spanish, and you hear much of the same dialogue here, people bitching about them flying Mexican flags and sending money back home, etc. I'm not making a judgment call on them I am saying these same comments are made by Jeebus loving republicans back home in Texas on a daily basis.Outside of the cities they bring it upon themselves.

My grandparents have a cabin in the Blue Ridge mountains.. Very nice area, grew up going there as a kid, fishing, there are deer, flying squirrels, etc.. Not even paved roads.. Then a few years ago some Mexicans moved in and built an enormous Mcmansion at the entrance to the area.. HUGE house, filthy garbage laying all over the yard, etc etc.. These are facts - not prejudice.. Mention it though and it's prejudice..

No. If I had kids, I would teach them Icelandic so they could talk to their grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. I have seen what happens when you don't. There is a huge disconnect. If they were having a problem learning the host language, I would get them some classes to learn that too though but normally, kids who live in an area with native kids will learn the language pretty much automatically, especially if they are young. My sister moved to Sweden many years ago with her kids, then 1, 4 and 5 years old. None of them had any problems learning Swedish or in school there. They would prefer to speak Swedish to each other as they did with other kids but the parents always spoke to them in Icelandic and made them speak Icelandic back so they wouldn't lose it. It sure came in handy when they decided to move back after 10 years because the kids didn't have any problems adjusting to the move back.

The problem in some immigrant families is lack of exposure to the host language. Maybe they live in a neighbourhood where all the other families come from the same country, all their kids friends on the block etc. and probably they have a package of TV channels in "old country" language so the only exposure they get to the host language might be at school which is just not enough. You could say that the parents should know better and they should get their kids exposed to the host language more to help them in school but there will always be parents who don't. For what I can see, there is not much we can do about that except to catch those kids when they enter school and give them extra attention to catch up on the language.

Poor, oppressed HerrDinksbumps. He can't make subtle digs about the cleanliness of Mexicans without being labeled as "prejudiced".

Who gives a if they're Mexican? Some messy people moved into the neighborhood. And? What's your point?

If they arrived in 1971 and their kids were born in 1985 i'd say yes.

Not working out a language deficit while your family lives in Germany permanently will end up in failure.

People who do speak the typical street lingo do not get jobs, that includes ethnic Germans.

Expats are a special case, people who grow up here and want a future in Germany should speak perfect German.

If you leave it out in pre school conersation with your child you harm the chances of your child.

And if you live in a homogenous turkish community the chances are high that you pick up little German before you're schoolage.

If your birth certificate says born in Germany ad you have an accent, it won't allow you to get far career wise. Footballer maybe.

@lil Platinum and TooMuchSky

I should ask you if you have ever lived in the south, because if you have, then you would know American does not have a problem with Mexicans, what we have a problem with are the illegal Immigrants, that the majority happen to be Mexican. We don't mind having mexicans in the US, we just want everyone to have entered legally and have legal permits to reside in the states, basically we want to make sure Uncle Sam gets his money from taxes.

Germany should be lucky that they dont' have too much of an Illegal Immigration problem like we do. And yes America is an open nation, we welcome people from all nations. we have people of different backgrounds in high govt position.

I dont' care what the website says about this site, you and I both know damn well it's filled with people that do not really want to integrate with the German lifestyle, we want to keep to ourselves.

And yeah I am here because I have no choice, but trust me once my wife is finished with school here, we are OUTTA here like white on rice.

Have you ever lived in a border state? The "what we have a problem with are the illegal Immigrants" is the official Republican line, but border state whites bitch about Mexicans incessantly, and I say this as a Houstonian whose town is 37% hispanic.

You referred to somewhere in the applatians, if thats true its a bit different view than being in a border state. My redneck Georgia relatives probably don't have the same problem with it that people in TX, Arizona, NM, Socal have.

And my point remains, you go to those places and you will hear many many whites bitching about them not speaking English and living in their own little communities.

Incidentally, Uncle Sam gets his money from most illegals since they pay taxes anyway. And people don't seem to have much problem with illegal immigrants since they are so widely employed by both individuals and businesses.I'm not defending the attitude I am saying it isn't unique to German, although the amount transient temporary workers like many people on here are expected to integrate is different than those who are permanantly settling. I have german friends and my German is enough to get by, but if I thought I would be here in 5-10 years still I damn sure would be sure to speak German fluently.

Deficits in language proficiency and subsequent school failure have a lot to do with a lack of reading culture ? can also be found in underprivileged German kids. When children aren't told stories, read books to, encouraged to read at a later age, they don't acquire the necessary rich vocabulary and ability to express themselves speaking and writing. The fact that some German-Turkish kids neither speak proper Turkish nor German means that in their families not enough importance is placed on acquiring those necessary cultural techniques. It's also easier to keep kids occupied in front of the TV or computer.

There are projects that try to promote reading, for example one that finds volunteer "reading godparents" for kids.

Has anyone mentioned about the formal invitation by German government for Turkish workers in 1960-70s? This makes everything differ simply from immigrants' integration problems at anywhere of the world.

What did Germany expect from Turks when they first arrived??? Contribute "only" our working power and then leave, please!

Ok, the issue is more important than "who started first" fight. But, you cannot wait from people (group of people, individuals) themselves to become integrated fully to your country&culture without any initiative attempts of the government(a big organization).

Who do you think that capable of solving problems?

That was exactly what was expected - contribute, get paid and then leave.

Actually that is exactly what was expected and why not? It was implict in the job offer and the "guest worker" status.

Now we can say it was a bad idea but at the time it made sense and in other countries it is still practiced, at least one of the Scandinavian countries sends people home if the economy has a down turn so at least give Germany credit for not just chucking all the Turks out when their job contracts ended.

To be honest, I think the dialogue has got to go both ways. Turks would like Germany/Germans to be more proactive about integrating them into German society/ be more inclusive: What exactly (and I don't mean this in any way as a condescending question) do they want the government and the people to do? Especially with the population that has been here for decades and is partially neutralized? New immigrants are offered integration and language classes, but where do you start with the ones that have been living here? Should school kids be bussed to schools in other neighborhoods like they used to do in the US? What are some concrete things that private people can do to help incorporate the Turkish minority more smoothly into society? I really mean for this as a honest question. What are steps 1 thru? that we can take to meet in the middle? And out of curiosity: how are expats doing with meeting and mingling with the Turkish population in Germany? Do you feel like you are in close contact? Being foreigners in Germany there should be quite a bit of common ground, no?

This is not a not just directed at Sparkling. Just happens to be his quote.

So to rephrase, you're totally fine with foreigners as long as they play by the rules you set, right?We don't have a problem with illegal immigration mostly because it's almost impossible to be here illegally. Getting in and staying is easier here than in most other countries around the world. In the US, it is fairly hard. Odd, no?You certainly seem to think so. I beg to differ, but there you go. If you think nobody likes you and act accordingly, nobody will.I'm not gonna comment on that, because I don't know if your wife shares your attitude.For once, the guest workers obviously liked it so much here that they decided not to return to their country of origin and their families, but instead to bring their families here. Which is all fair and good, unless of course many members of said families are middle-aged to elderly and due to the language barrier can't get a job or fend for themselves. And it's not like they weren't aware the primary language in Germany isn't Turkish, they just expected to depend on the welfare state all along. It's that particular attitude - which is by no means restricted to Turks or even foreigners at large - which I find questionable. My first step before deciding to move permanently to a country foreign to me would be learning about the culture and language so I can fit in as best I can. Everything else would be antisocial, I'd be no different from the countries welfare-funded couch warmers.

There is also a bunch of reasons why Turks are singled out in most discussion about immigration failure, primarily their sheer volume. They are the single biggest minority in Germany, which exacerbates every other issue people could be having with immigration, such as a cultural gap, enclaves like in Berlin Kreuzberg, failure to understand even the most basic German in some members of the group etc.

None of these issues are noteworthy with the smaller groups, such as Italians, Polish, Greeks, Croatians, not even the Vietnamese, and most of these people immigrated under the very same terms as the Turks.

There is a problem with integration, that much is agreed. But the state is doing everything short of forcing immigrants into the language classes they can. It's good to see that language and culture tests are being developed, that could one day be mandatory for anyone wishing to become a citizen. Germany is taking baby steps to where the rest of the world has been for decades...

Integration and feeling of belonging could start with Germany allowing all those foreigners who live/work in Germany i.e. taxpayers, to vote in national elections. IMO this discrimination of accepting their money in tax but denying their right to say how it is spent is in my case a major factor in not feeling a sense of beloning, in not being fully integrated. Certain rights and certain jobs for Germans, unlike in other European countries Germany accepts having a 2nd class citizens.

[quote name='Jon Blaze' date='24.Nov.2009, 11:13am' timestamp='1259057624' post='1842167']Poor, oppressed HerrDinksbumps. He can't make subtle digs about the cleanliness of Mexicans without being labeled as "prejudiced".

Yes, that's what Canada is still doing. The people who are on skilled worker visas have the option to apply for permanent residency there but those who are doing low skill jobs don't. If things get bad, their work permits will not be renewed and they will have to leave. They are also not allowed to bring their spouses over unless their spouse can also qualify for their own work permit.

Mexicans aren't the only ones who move into communities and turn their property to , thats why HOAs were invented. Maybe that community should have had foresight.

Just thought you all might want to know, I was sitting at a cafe on Reichenbergerstraße this morning and saw a Turkish lady in hijab speaking to her 3-year-old in German and helping it learn to count to ten in German as they walked to the busstop. Who knows how common or uncommon this is...?

The Turkish kids I worked with in kitas also spoke perfect German and their parents always spoke it as well, accented but fluent. *ducking back out now*

From my experience, this is way more common than one would think from this discussion.

If I read in this threat, one might believe that the last 50 years didn't happen and all Germans are astonished to find a Turkish shop where Helmut's Sauerkrau-Mart used to be while the Turks can't speak a word of German and stand around in the streets the whole day being angry at Germany.

Gastarbeiter came from different countries, alot from Spain, Italy and Greece, also from the Balkans.

The way they integrated in society is fundamentally different.

Nobody said Turks can't speak German. My uncle is a retired Gesamtschul-teacher, one of the first to think about

programs to integrate Gastarbeiter kids in Saarland. He was quite successful in the 60's and 70's, but shocked

how the integration turned backwards. Mothers who took part in physical ed without headscarf in the seventies

suddenly take their girls out of it. And there's a fact that a good percentage first graders have language problems.

Source: 2 primary school teachers i know.

As my uncle, who read the Qur'an in the sixties to understand his students said:

Wrong political correctness works against integration. He actually gave up on it. Quite sad.

His school had a majority of minorities. Young turks or arabs OFTEN do not act like other former guestworker kids.

The situtation of the girls was better 20 years ago.

That actually makes sense though. Non-assimilating Immigrant populations have a tendency to freeze in their development at the years in which in they left, and then regress to whatever their cultures view as a more traditional role. It is part of the not-letting go process. In countries with strong assimilative tendencies, the new political identity sometimes replaces the old or mixes with it.

Take the Greeks in the US for example. In the the 20th century they came in two major waves of immigration , the 1922 and post civil war. Compared to Greeks in the Hellenic Republic, American Greeks (at least those who sill have the language and the Religion) are far more traditional, far more conservative and using the standards of the 1940's or 1920's or the 19th century even, far more culturally "Greek." But as the assimilation wears on and the language and sometimes religion goes, then so goes the traditionalism. Maybe this will happen here as well.

A good example for your theory are of course the Pennsylvanian Dutch (who by the way weren't Dutch but German originally). If a group of people is as strongly opposed to integration as they are, it well feel sooner or later like they're living in a different time zone. Most communities who don't select to isolate themselves gradually assimilate though, mostly because 2nd and 3rd generation offspring will defy their elders and shun their traditions, thus becoming friends with and eventually intermarrying with the "local flavour".

"Was that up to, or down from, ten?"

Only if those locals are accepting. Otherwise you have these children who become more-homeland, in search of an identity. Indian people in London are an excellent example.

You get that from Turks in germany -- the parents often speak better german than the kids because the kids don't feel welcomed by germans and don't learn german very well as a " you" kind of a gesture, and stick to their parts of town where they don't need to know german.

I wouldn't know the situation in Berlin even though my cousin lives in Kreuzberg and it's my parent's hometown as well. But from my experience in the Ruhr Area there is next to nobody below the age of 30 living in Germany and not able to speak the language, unless they just migrated. Integration in kindergarten and at school does happen, and it is usually the kids who teach their parents stuff about the german language (case in point a close friend of mine who used to make a sport of correcting his mother).

What does that mean? I thought the whole point of "white on rice" was that white stays on rice. Was this ignorance or a weird attempt at irony? Please elaborate. I will be sitting here like a bat out of hell, quiet as a screaming banshee awaiting your response.

I dont normally feel compelled to write but medic 82 has got my back up with his comment God Bless the U.S and the U.K as if there is integration in those countries. It is outrageous.

Visit some of the large cities and towns in the UK and see how integrated they are, Blackburn, Bradford, Slough, Birmingham, Luton, areas of London, Manchester, in fact any town that has a large immigrant population. There is no integration, no matter what the country of origin. My God Ireland is split in 2 because they cannot integrate, and they are all Irish. How many cities in the world is there a Chinatown. Why, because they do not integrate and do not want to. I agree it is not all the fault of the immigrant but here in Germany the government are giving away 600 hours of language tuition for one Euro an hour. They even segregate the classes to encourage people. What more do people want.

I cannot be specific about the U.S and immigrants but I had the good fortune to visit the State of Mississippi 2 years ago. I saw very little integration there between fellow U.S. citizens all legally there. I saw some black people living in no more than shacks. Some towns were like stepping back in time, I could not believe that in this day and age, in one of the most developed countries in the world people still lived like that, and not even immigrants.

So when you and your wife have finished getting what you want out of the German State, I hope you find happiness where ever you go.

Off course you do. I hear that Spanish is the more spoken language in most places.

And please let us all know when you leave so that we can clap!

Dude, its Mississippi, most of the white people aren't exactly living in mansions.

I thought Chinatowns existed in order to make it easier to find a good dim sum restaurant, weird vegetables, twenty types of tofu, eighty kinds of bubble tea, and get dirt cheap vietnamese grilled sandwiches

True, where else are you gonna find Asian delicacies like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8nWpBQZueA