March 20, 2010
Published: 18 Sep 09 16:24 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090918-22019.html
Charlotte or Chantal? From the moment they first read the school register, teachers could already be unfairly prejudiced against certain children, a new study from the University of Oldenberg revealed this week.
Zofia K Stanley (news@thelocal.de)
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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Your comments about this article:
Some of it makes a bit of sense, actually. I mean, it seems ridiculous to think an Alex will be worse-behaved than a Maurice, but when you meet a kid named Chardonnay or Champagne or something, you have to be at least marginally aware that children are a product of their environments... I've never met anyone who named their kid Chardonnay but I think I can fairly well stereotype the kinds of people who do
edit: the article I read was about English children, not German ones.
I have also always been a believer in that your name presses you into a certain role....
I think only Germans would consider hard-core German names acceptable. I mean, in my German 101 class in high school, we all picked "traditional" German names. Of course, a lot of us were taking the piss. We had a "Sven", a "Dieter" and a "Klaus-Dieter", a "Wiebke", and I was "Astrid".
My two worst students though--and by bad students I mean, both of them are going to grow up to be serial murderers, one of them has already started by killing a duck with his bare hands, the other one merely broke his classmate's nose--were both named Maurice.
The two quietest, shyest and underachieving girls were both named Sophie.
And I still haven't met a Justus that I like.
Unfair? Only if it affects the way you interact with the children. But when you work with 140-200 different children in a week, there's not really a whole lot you can do about the fact that they will indeed categorize themselves.
[And to address the question "So what if a kid is called Chardonnay": It is not the kind of name which will carry the child with dignity through any situation as she progresses through life. It shows a decided lack of foresight on the part of the parents, and makes one wonder if they have the first clue about how to conduct themselves in professional situations.]
"I just had lunch with sehr geehrter Herr Professor Doktor Doktor Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern- schplenden- schlitter- crasscrenbon- fried- digger- dingle- dangle- dongle- dungle- burstein- von- knacker- thrasher- apple- banger- horowitz- ticolensic- grander- knotty- spelltinkle- grandlich- grumblemeyer- spelterwasser- kurstlich- himbleeisen- bahnwagen- gutenabend- bitte- ein- nürnburger- bratwustle- gerspurten- mitz- weimache- luber- hundsfut- gumberaber- shönedanker- kalbsfleisch- mittler- aucher von Hautkopft von Ulm." "So, how's Joe doing?"
My wife says there's a whole passel of Germans with weird-ass/stereotypical names like Detlef or Helmut or Wolfgang who rue the day their parents chose that monicker for them for their whole lives, but nonetheless refuse to get themselves a servicable nickname.
In an increasingly global world, kids' names need to be chosen such that they travel well. My humble suggestion is "5".
There's nothing more german than some mom on the playground yelling "Luuuuuukassss" or "Sebaaaastiaaaan"! How "Kevin" ever got into the mix perplexes me to no end, given that it can't be squawked effectively.
Ah, well, at least their names are memorable.
And Helge, thats kinda gender-bending. Poor guy I know with that name is pretty unsure of himself, too...
PS. Before you get out your minuses, I am joking about failing the Udo kid. I am not even a teacher. Probably would smack him upside the head, tho...
Im sure a significant percentage of them would've said "i know she/he could'nt get a job at the local strip club with a name like that ".
Some of it makes a bit of sense, actually. I mean, it seems ridiculous to think an Alex will…
By contrast unusual names are real names that have either fallen out of favour but are still traditional in a given family or names that a couple hear and decide they like. Sometimes the novel name that is chosen after being heard can momentarily become popular. That happened with all three of the names my parents chose for their kids - one was a family name that at the time they chose it nobody ws using it ad the other two related, one to a poem and one to a song. All three names for various reasons became popular in the years we were born so that in he end our first naes, that were chosen for their unusualness, were anything but when we got to school.
Why did my parents not choose conservative names? Well we have a very unusual surname and TBH dressing that up with a 'john' or a "mary" would just look silly.
______________
Bonjour,
I am French, so I can say that, names as Charlotte, Sophie, Marie, are not real german names but french names...what about Alexandre, not really a german name !! what about Alexandre the great, was he a german? Alexandre is also a french name for many centuries
Jacob and Simon are names from the Bible, Jacob is more a jewish name than a german one...
But I fully agree about the name Kevin, there is many in France, my sister , a school's leader says boys named kevin associated with weak performance and bad behaviour....
AS well for girls named Ophélie, they are poor and unhappy little things not very clever and not very pretties... far away from what the name suggests..
The prejudice of discrimination is not the fact of the teachers but of the parents.
It's remind me a scandale in France about twins named Starsky and Hutch , and another one about a girl named Mégane (from the Renault´s car)
At last, Chantal and Maurice are old french names completly out of fashion in France...but instead have we many Sue-Ellen, Jennifer, Kevin, Sharon...lucky we are...
I met a german woman named Isabelle, when I told her it's a very old french name she did want to believe me and assure me it was a spanish name...
I am French, so I can say that, names as Charlotte, Sophie, Marie, are not real german names but french names...what about Alexan…
Very kind of you for correcting my mistakes, so may I correct yours?
MariE - is the french transcription for the hebrew name Maryam, -as MarY is the english transcription- SophiE is the french transcription for SophiA ....
Have a good week-end ! :)
Holland Township family angry that supermarket won't personalize cake for their son
Call me crazy, but Adolf Hiltler, JoyceLynn Aryan Nation, and Honszlynn Hinler Jeannie are terrible names for a poor child to have, and its no wonder they were taken into foster care:
State removes Hunterdon County child named Hitler from home
Slightly more on topic:
Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned a study they read about a correlation between unpopular first names and crime. I remember reading a similar study, so I've attached it as well:
First Names and Crime
It always amazes me how much a child's surroundings and outside influences effect their behavior. It really makes you wonder about the whole nature vs nurture debate. (Personally, I think both have an influence and which wins out is dependent on individual cirmcumstances.)
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/today/index.ssf/2008/12/holland_township_family_angry.html
Of course it is wrong of teachers to label them because of their name or social background, though.
Kim is a Korean name by the way, as anyone who's ever picked a book is aware.
Please reveal more about ¦quot;Kim¦quot; being exclusively a Korean name.
Please reveal more about ?"Kim?" being exclusively a Korean name.
there's no descrimination of the names here.The descrimnination exist in what kind of school your child belong to (when they are 10).Gymnasium (highly intelligent children).realschule (middle) hauptschule (low).The children belongs to the third category they felt bad. Many parents when their kids is from the high category prohibiting that their children mingle with those who are in Hauptschule.
Really? I thought she was Cambodian...
The Chinese, "Jin", is of recent form. It changed from "Kim" about the time Peking became Bejing. Who can even keep up with these arbitrary changes, and let alone who cares? The important thing is that one doesn't have one of these as a school band leader, lest a strange and peculiar "slant" be introduced into what would otherwise be music.
What always totally irritated me was the way some parents were "Gymnasium" parents, even when the poor little kid was only 7. His future was all mapped out, and woe betide him if he didn't make the grade. Pushy doesn't even come into it.
"Merkel", now there's a name with a ring to it. One can bet she was tops at the Communist League Hauptschule.
Give the group in nearby Barsinghausen my best greetings.
Bell will be granted a promotion.
PS: George O, you are disturbed
My little half-sister had a toy stolen and hidden from her by a boy in kindergarten class, which was discovered a couple of days later. The kindergarten teacher's comment to her mother asking which boy: "Starts with a K- and ends with an -evin." That kid will grow up being treated as a failure. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all that.
Which is especially tragic because primary school teachers have a big influence on the self-esteem and future of young children. Mine was a crap teacher, picked favorites, mocked the "slow" ones and hit me with a book for lying about homework. She didn't have the first clue about dealing with my highly advanced reading and writing skills, nor did she ever interfere on some pretty dang obvious signs of parental neglect. An actually competent teacher might have made a huge, huge difference in my life.
The thought that someone like her decided the academic and professional future of every kid in her class after 4th grade is abhorrent to me. So the thought of teachers today sorting kids into boxes of behavior and leaving them there (because their name and apparent background have predetermined their fate and they only exist as an impediment to the "good" children) is similarly disheartening.
In the US, where students of Asian descent routinely finish at the top of their high school classes (even after generally taking the tougher math and science routes) even if their parents run dry cleaners and don't speak much English, there's an undercurrent of grumbling over the intense competition for slots at elite universities that have some "natives" talking about having to reinstitute quotas. Imagine that: A system in which immigrant students are so successful regardless of their name happens to be that the "native" families have to worry about their kids being bumped aside! Clearly, this is the result of hard work and perserverence on the part of immigrant kids, but the public preparatory education system apparently serves them and their parents well.
Here, even though university education is "free", a shockingly low percentage of the population goes on to higher education, which makes it a more scarce commodity ... especially in a country where well-paying, white-collar jobs growth is stagnant to declining. Low quality and the ludicrous complexity of the German language itself makes it much more of a "closed shop" already, dampening competition from other areas of the world (not many elete school kids from the anglosphere competiting for german slots, but plenty of german students applying to Oxford and Harvard).
Therefore, it's highly likely that when maternity ward nurses are filling out the paperwork for a newly born "Kevin" (or "Muhammed"), a lot are secretly thinking "whew ... less competition for "Lukas".
How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but the lightbulb has to really want to change.
Considering the prejudice against children who don't go to Gymnasium and their social background, they're more likely thinking "Great, another little neonazi school drop-out living off Hartz IV and voting for the NPD", in the case of Kevin if they are inclined to feel judgemental. I don't think anyone is happy with the idea of more "problem children", competition or not. Most people are aware that there are big problems in the German school system and that it has a negative impact on society in general.
It's not like people don't get an education here though. It's just not at a university. I am currently working in a cardboard box factory. Some of the people start there straight out of 10th grade, others later. They do their 3 year apprenticeship in box factory science or whatever it's called and then work there all their lifes, making tons of money. I don't see anybody there crying about not having gotten into gymnasium. I have never heard a German say anything against their education system actually. If they don't have a problem with it, why should we?
It's not all bad, but there are many things that should be improved.
stefeoo1, have you ever thought that you are on the wrong website? I'm sure that there are plenty of "Ausländer Raus" websites that need your "KNOW HOW"...
No response from the Germans on hearing his name (they pronounce it as "Angle"), but I got out the garlic, silver bullets and wooden stakes!
Can someone translate this to English for me, please?
I guess Dick Butkus' name never held him back, but I do wonder how my friend's cousin managed through school with the name (honest) Harry Butts.
Mona Horner
Harry Lipschitz
Minnie Merkin
Wilford Sweat
Gloria Grinditch
Fanny Finkelstein
Stupid names for children
There are some really odd names in there
Myrna Wallfisch
Myrtle Merkel (Cousin of Angela living in Israel)
Two spelling corrections:
Gloria Grimditch
Wilfred Sweat
What always totally irritated me was the way some parents were "Gymnasium" …
We knew a family, black Caribbean mother, German father, dark-skinned boys. The elder son got a Gymnsium empfehlung, and I understand that there was almost a riot in their village, from German middle-class mothers who didn't get a Gymnasium recommendation for their precious darlings!
My brother had a Grundschullehrerin who instead of celebrating pupils' birthdays, celebrated their Namenstag. So all the kids with traditional German names got a celebration, the two or three Turkish kids and my brother (who has a non-German name) didn't get a celebration.
In some areas, especially the strong catholic areas, Namenstag is more important than birthdays and families tend to celebrate these more. It was certainly so in my ex-wife's case.
Kevin is a beautiful name, and if you ask me I think of a quite neat clean boy, but I am aware of the fact that there are different kinds of kids with that name.
I have asked some people's opinions, mostly in the US and it showed that over 80% of the people in other countries actually think of a quiet shy but intelligent boy or have made that experience with someone named Kevin.
And Chantal by the way is a French name that if you went to France you'll certainly find many different people with that name as well, even though the name rather sounds fine and upper class, while here they think it sounds like someone poor and stupid.
This is ridiculous.