Islam on the way to legal equality with Christianity in Germany

If there was ever an argument for separation of church and state, and keeping religion out of schools, as they definitely should ....

May be the Islamic countries should also give such equality to christianity.

Islamic countries will never give you such equality to any other religion. They have no tolerance towards others. If they don't feel comfortable here, why do they choose to immigrate here in the first place knowing well this is a Christian country. They can always stay back home or go to so many islamic countries.

Once you give in to them, there will be no stopping.

Maybe the Germans can lead the cause of tolerance by example.

I'd prefer they just stop teaching religion in schools, but since they do by long tradition, it's hard to justify barring the Muslim kids from getting instruction in their own religion at school.

I come from Indonesia which 85% population are muslim. Christian get by christian religion in the school, Catholic get their own religion too..There are holidays for christmas, easter, etc just like holiday for celebrating Eid in Islam..

I'm awful tired of the West killing itself. I'm not sure what the benefits of the "cause of tolerance" are.

There is NO SUCH THING. Or are you one of the many who don't know that "islam" is a word which means surrender/subjugation. Islam DOES NOT ALLOW for "tolerance". Look up the word "dhimmi". Christianity by the book doesn't allow for tolerance either (although Judiasm does); in practice through Western civilisation and German law tolerance is expected. Not so with Islam. Muslims, like Soviets and US Republicans, make outrageous demands which others soon agree to negotiate, moving the goalposts ever closer to radicalism. Even more outrageous demands are made so that the previous demands look positively compromising. The goalposts move again. Repeat ad infinitum.

woof.

Oh, my... this could get interesting. If they allow Islam "equal rights" with Christianity, then it could open the doors for other religions to also get equality. I wonder how Germany would be able to balance complete religious freedom with their laws restricting the display of certain widely used religious symbols? They're going to have to tread carefully since they cannot open the doors for all mainstream religions to have full rights, [post="1679710">especially not the Hindus and Buddhists[/post].

Brugge and BadDoggie, I am only responding to those on this thread who say that Muslim countries should "tolerate" Christians in their midst if their emigrants expect to be catered to in German schools.

The whole concept of Toleranz is insulting and assumes cultural superiority on the part of those who seek to be tolerant. If Muslims are seeking religious instruction in schools for their kids, on par with what the Christian kids are getting, Germany should take the opportunity to throw out all religious instruction in their schools.

Or make religion lessons encompass all major world religions. At least then you'd get some form of common understanding and keep the pupils together rather than promoting separation.

Ever had religious ed in a german school? Btw my school had a 4 tier system:

Orthodox for the greek guys, had lots of them, catholic and protestant.

Muslims and non religious had simply replacement classes.

agree with MrNosey here - this seems the best way to promote understanding of other religions/cultures while giving children the opportunity to compare and contrast and hence figure out for themselves what they make of religion

Nah, It'd get dominated by those crazy monotheists. Why do all these occult fads receive special treatment anyway? I believe I should get free massages by nuns in hotpants every day, but you don't see me getting any tax breaks for it.

I'm with MrNosey and Silin' Ey...,

Why is the system forcing its religion on kids? And why are parents allowing this? It's just like the old prearranged (forced) marriage, except that the system and the parents choose the god instead of the spouse?

If people are now allowed to grow up and chose their mates, based on their own criteria, then they should be allowed to chose their own faith, based on their beliefs. I've got no problem with teaching religion at school, as long as it's teaching and not brain-washing, and that all major religions are treated equally. It would definitely make more tolerant and understanding grown-ups (in both Christians and Muslims).

-Sylvain

Awesome.

(attached image)

I'm amazed to find out that all religions don't already have the same legal status!

I was too actually. I thought religion wasn't even taught in schools in Germany

It is taught but it's hardly bible-bashing stuff and is only 45 minutes per week. After the intro on what bits of a church are called it turns into more of an ethics class with applicability to Christians, eg good samaritan story, christian aid in Africa, don't be nasty to other people or furry animals, etc. I think the Catholics get a bit more dogma but it's still pretty tame AFAIK.

Nobody gets proper religious instruction any more. Ask any school leaver about a serious moral issue, such as, what are the 14 graces of confirmation? or what are the correct order of prayers to release a soul from purgatory on All Souls Day?

All you'll get back is a blank stare. Sad.

And no-one knows where to get decent quality virgins to burn in the Wickerman either. Standards today!

Or the direct ratio between the number of pirates and global temperature.

The city state of Berlin doesn't have religion classes as regular parts of the curriculum. In Brandenburg, there is a combination of ethics, comparative study of religions and denominational religion classes. Elsewhere pupils can opt out and choose other subjects like philosophy etc.

The main reason why Islam doesn't have the same status as Christian churches and Jewish communities yet is the religious and ideological diversity of organisations that represent Muslims in Germany. Islam doesn't have a pronounced clerical hierarchy, so there are no undisputed religious authorities who could claim to represent Islam. Therefore, it is difficult for the State to identify dialogue partners, for example when talking about Islam classes (what are the contents, who are the teachers etc.).

Those are religious questions, not moral questions. Although the distinction is fuzzy, religion and morality are separate concepts.

Quite right. I stand corrected.

Morality implies a proper behaviour, which includes the correct sum of weregeld I must pay if I murder my neighbour's son; wheras religion implies a proper fear of the gods, which includes the correct number of oxen to sacrifice to assuage my defilement of a sacred virgin.

well said

but then why not convert it into an ethics class so all can participate? if they teach christianity is all about being a good samaritan, helping Africa (!), being nice to people, they are in fact manipulating the little minds. these kids probably end up thinking "we are the good ones, the ones who don't attend the class are the bad ones."

it is de facto brainwashing.

Umm, it's not "the system" but parents who decide if and what religion is taught to their children. If the parents don't wish religion classes, they can deregister their kid; at the age of 10 a child has a say if parents want it to change the denomination, and 14-year-olds can decide independently on their religious affiliation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be much more difficult if not impossible for Muslims. Strictly speaking, it is not possible to leave the Islamic faith, Muslims who do are considered apostates (with severe consequences in Sharia-influenced states). So a Muslim youth potentially has less religious freedom to decide on his faith, unless his parents are liberal or secular themselves. A Muslim woman living in Germany whom I know has huge problems because of this.The little I remember from my religion classes wasn't anything like that. We talked about the big questions of life (so more like amateur philosophy), about historical aspects of Christianity and the bible and did bible text interpretations (more about reading comprehension, philological knowledge). I'm sure we also learned about other religions.

- the theory and how it is practiced in many countries vary greatly. In my youth the religion class in Turkey was optional, so I, along with other children of communists, Jews, Armenians, etc. just played outside during this one hour. The religion class is not optional any more, but it is supposed to focus on ethics. How successful the practice is, I can't say.

- even in countries where Sharia is used, e.g. Malaysia, one can leave Islam. Yes, the consequences are not great, the family may potentially turn their backs to you, plus you lose your advantageous position as a Muslim there. But this is just a Malaysia example.

- I thought it is Christianity that's impossible to leave. Isn't it so that once you are baptized as a Christian, you are a Christian. I remember reading about a case in Italy, where a Christian baby sitter baptized a Jewish baby, the law refused to give the boy back to his parents, because a Christian child should not be raised by Jewish parents. I think the boy ended up in the clergy of the church.

For me the problem starts with comparing religions and having the attitude of "Christianity is great, Islam is horrible, Sharia is a disaster".

The way I see it, all religions are past their useful dates. They did evolve into laws, rules, regulations, manners and traditions. People prefer to ignore this evolution and want to stick to the old rules. Sharia used to be a revolution for it's time (look it up) and way ahead of the European laws in middle ages. But there is no Sharia 2.0, and the old Sharia doesn't work in today's world, this is the problem.

Christianity is no different, however smart the Western people are in sugar coating it, it has past it's date.

Can't let that go without a correction.

In very conservative Christian and Jewish groups, the penalty for leaving is shunning. That means that nobody from your former friends or even family will have anything more to do with you. They'll treat you as if you are dead.

In very conservative Islamic groups, the penalty for leaving is death.

Bit of a difference there, isn't it?

Sparkling, I agree that people in various Muslim countries might adopt a pragmatic attitude and Islamic authorities have issued varying fatwas on the matter, still in some countries apostasy can be life-threatening (the German Wiki entry lists a number of concrete cases of death sentences; the most prominent being Salman Rushdie). The case you mention about the baptised Jewish baby sounds like a rather singular one (I wonder about the legality of it). Proselytising is a thing of the past, at least on the part of the big Christian churches, small fundamentalist churches or sects can be different. If someone changes his or her mind in the course of their life, they can of course cancel their church membership and become a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, atheist or whatever; the Christian church won't sanction this. Unlike Scientology.

I need dates, names, places...

Bipa, again, your focus is just comparison and all you seem to care is that Christianity is better than Islam.

The way I see is:

- if Christians shun you for leaving the religion, it is bad

- if Muslim authorities have the right to kill you when you leave your religion, and they kill you, it is very very bad.

no comparison is needed in my opinion.

Salman Rushdie fatwa has nothing to do with him leaving Islam, it had to do with his book Satanic Verses. Strangely enough, he claims to be a Muslim n…[/quote]Edgardo Mortata case is as singular as the Salman Rushdie case you gave, which is not a matching example btw.

Edgardo Mortara (Wikipedia)

http://isurvived.org/InTheNews/letter-Vatican_Policy.htmlhttp://isurvived.org/InTheNews/NYT-saving_...h-children.html

Should we now believe that all Christians are monsters?

When we dig enough, there are many deep dark sides of all religions. That's why I'm against any comparison.

The people who just focus on comparing seem to secretly wish to convert the others to their religion, that's why their arguments don't get proper attention.

You watch way too much TV.

[quote name='sparkling' post='1686051' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:25 am']Bipa, again, your focus is just comparison and all you seem to care is that Christianity is better than Islam.

The way I see is:

That wasn't my intention, since they are on the same post, it looks as such.

They can be looked at separately, I think you understand that's what I meant.

I need to sleep now. Have fun!

I'm not an Islam expert, but if the UN human rights commission can be trusted, Rushdie was originally sentenced to death for apostasy by Ayatollah Khomeini, but later the Islamic Conference (Foreign Ministers of 44 countries) also declared him an apostate:(Quoted from The Rushdie affair)I consider it people's private matter which faith they have or not, and I agree that each religion needs to be respected in its own right. However, in this thread I differed from your and another poster's view that Germany with admittedly Christian traditions is particularly intolerant against other religions. That's why I made a comparison with Islam.

The Edgardo Mortara case is an interesting one from a cultural/historical point of view, but it happened in the 40s. Do you have recent similar examples?

Nope, and I certainly don't care to research. If you dig enough, you will see all the dark sides of religions. Let's not forget Inquisition, or even the effect of religion on Holocaust. Or Afghanistan for that matter.

If you still want to believe that Christianity is all about being a good samaritan and helping others, whereas all other religions are bad, this is your decision to believe in fairy tales.

If you still want your children to be taught sugar coated religion at a young age, this is your decision to let them grow up believing in fairy tales.

Oh, you do care to do research. Somebody else in this thread pointed out Muslim scholars currently advocating death penalty for apostasy.

You did some research to find something similar done by the Vatican, but only found something from over 65 years ago.

The "dark sides of all religions" is just trying to change the subject. I would be happy to abolish them all, and personally I don't think they should be taught in school.

However, if somebody wants to convert from one religion to another, there should not be a death penalty associated to it.

I think there most certainly should be the death penalty, it says so in the holy texts, who are you to claim God's words are not applicable?

Why when a Muslim person says something bad then Islam gets blamed but when a Christian person says something similar Christianity does not get blamed?

This thread is turning into a "Which religion is the worst of them all" thread.

Very good example of tolerance towards other/any religions.

No religion is perfect. They each have their flaws and their good points. IMHO, it's pointless to try and compare, that's what tolerance is (should be) all about.

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,

J. Kent Ashcraft

http://www.dogchurch.org/restroom/drlaura.html

I'm also curious in Deuteronomy 22 it tells me that if I rape a country girl I have to pay her father 50 shekels and marry her, did god provide some sort of standard for currency exchange or do I have to go to the money changer and get 50 israeli shekels before going to the country this weekend.

It's about 8.96 euros with the current exchange rate. Maybe a bit more with charges.

u mean like Jesus?

Jebus was a Jew, not a Crosstian

It's not about religion it's about religious organizations. There are several religious groups which are recognized by the state and gain certain advantages since the state grants them privileges. The problem with Islam is that it simply hasn't got a structure as for example the Catholic church, so there is no organization which can be recognized.

The situation is very similar to a football club and a group of people meeting each Saturday for a game. Both groups kick a ball around, but in one case you have an organization, the club, which can be supported by the state. In the other case, you have a group of individuals which can't be addressed by the state.

The German state is very interested to find one or several Islamic organizations with which it can work together. In that case, religious teachers and preachers can be educated in German universities and the religion can be taught in German schools. In both cases, the contents of the education can be influenced by the German state (for example they need to conform with German laws). Currently preachers and teachers come from outside Germans, often only for a year or two, and and work in purely private intiatives. They know little about Germany and its customs and they might have more radical views than most of the Muslims living in Germany.

This thread is now giving me the giggles.

Despite all our differences in many other matters, I appreciate my father more and more that he tried to raise us without any influence of religions, but rather with humanistic ideals.

I started writing in this thread, to support the cause of abolishing religious classes in shools instead of increasing their numbers, but somehow got carried away in the comparisons discussion.

The comparisons usually tend to be about Islam bashing. The Muslims you describe are very foreign to me, and although I'm no fan of Islam or any other religion for that matter, I feel the urge to defend the ones who are generally portrayed as evils. The generalizations are dangerous, and I didn't mean to do Christian-bashing, but intended to show there are bad apples all around. I know many good humans, who happen to be Christians as well.

I know other good humans, who happen to be Muslims, like my 70+ yr old aunt who wears a headscarf and prays, but probably has never once thought about whether these make sense or not. She was too busy raising kids, earning money, supporting her sick husband, etc. She finds peace this way. I also remember my grandfather, who would wake up early in the morning to read Kuran softly before going to work in the farm. I think he didn't know or understood Arabic. Probably it is not very different than Westerns chanting Hindu chants in Ashrams in India, to find inner peace. He lived and died within max 400km2 radius, and never knew he was evil.

I see them as humans first. Maybe it's easier for me to do, because they are family for me. Now that I resolved why I react and get defensive, I may go back to my daily problems...

Wish you all a good day!

Though I'm not Catholic and not religious, I went to a school run by the Catholic church. Religion was important in the school and religious classes were mandatory, but I highly disagree that this is in contrast with humanistic ideals. I think that these ideals has a higher priority than in most state run schools.

I can understand that people who haven't experienced religious classes in German schools might be a little sceptical of the concept, but it's just not the indoctrination by religious zealots that some people imagine it t be.

Hans

I think the sceptical people you refer to are US Americans, who do not have religious education at school. People from the UK, Australia, NZ, etc will have had this and find it quite normal. As you say, it isn't at the level of indoctrination and for those from the US sceptical about this, don't you think that there are a lot of kids in 'middle America' attending bible classes at their family church? After all, belief and church attendance are much higher in the US than in Europe.

the greens & other well-meaning people need 2 understand that it is neither necessary nor desirable to tolerate intolerance. this is a sure road 2 slavery, and the eradication of the fairness and sensitivity 2 feelings which they hold so dear. this move is tantamount 2 the appeasement which rewarded hitler's audacity so freely.

islam is not just a religion as the post-religious west likes to think - it is a total social political and legal mandatory system, in direct conflict with the tenets of democracy. catholicism of the 800 years inquisition should similarly b considered ineligible 4 legal protection. if we value freedom, self-responsibility, free thinking, & individual rights, no religion ought be allowed anywhere near a modern classroom.

our job is to protect young human beings as much as possible from irrational dogma and faith-based doctrines. germany doesn't seem to have learned much from its recent history...

Having been to school in the US, Australia and New Zealand, in both private and public schools, I can assure you that religious education in Oz and NZ is not the norm, unless you go to a private, religious school.

As it happens, I spent my last years in an Anglican boarding school, where God was something of an optional extra.

If kids in middle America attend Bible classes, that's their family's choice.

The idea that you have to actually renounce your faith in order to get out of a useless class at school seems amazing.

persona, you write intelligently. Why not use letters instead of numbers for the short words "to" and "for"?Ironic, innit? Public schools are (more or less) not allowed to teach or promote religion, and yet faith practice is quite popular in our society, and not just among the older folks. Which would seem to support the argument that in-school religious instruction isn't necessary to sustain religious traditions.

In my opinion that is an argument pro public school religious education (on a voluntary basis). If education authorities and religious representants develop the curriculum and the state chooses the teachers, the content of what is taught is more transparent and balanced than what happens in some bibles schools and backyard mosques (the latter currently filling the gap in Germany). The aim of religious classes in schools is not to turn pupils into devout, blind followers of a belief but to make them knowledgable.

Whilst there's no compulsory religious education in US public schools as set out by the Constitution, "comparative religions", or "religions of the world" classes were commonplace, at least when I went to high school.

The thing here that's somewhat puzzling is that if one opts one's kid into this "education", it splits off into sects and nobody ever gets to learn about the other's religion. And if you opt out, you have to attend some sort of "ethics" class which doesn't appear to teach you anything other than the usual "be kind to one another' stuff that shouldn't have to be taught in schools at all were most parents on the ball.

The whole thing, sadly, appears to be less about indoctrination or education, and and more like thinly-veiled (no pun intended) draft registration for future Kirchensteur payers.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Jebus, Allah, Jehova etc.; it's their fan clubs that drive me up the wall.

Maybe, but rather misleading as an argument as Germany is not a Christian state and freedom of religion is guaranteed by Article 4 of the Basic Law. Some sort of tit for tat arrangement is impossible...

If you've got a few minutes to kill, try the Welt Online Islam Quiz

@cinzia: there's a limit to the number of characters allowed in these posts! 1200 i think... normly wot i rite is proppa inglish ; )

No worries, I don't think there are any limits 4 post word counts. And you're nowhere close 2 some of the whopper posts I've seen.