Parade in SS uniforms sparks outrage

I think Nazism is going to haunt Germany to the same effect slavery has haunted America; sadly, for generations and unending generations, heaping shame on those who have shamed nobody.

It's a depiction of history guys, lighten up.

It's History It's all around not a big deal

Yes and no. If you look at a blown up version of the picture, they just taped over the SS symbols. Most Germans would tell you that carrying Nazi symbols openly is considered extremely provocative. It's easy to say get over it but the SS was no normal military force, they were involved in killing and maltreatment of millions. Acting as if they were the same as the GIs diminishes the SS's role in the Holocaust.

I understand what the history group was trying to present, but I'm not sure enough time could ever pass that would allow such a presentation to be seen as benign and educationally interesting. Parades usuually represent something that is being celebrated or honored.

Nazism is going to haunt Germany because their are still people living in this country (especially in the former eastern States) that support those beliefs. This situation has caused particular outrage and disgust because of the momentum that the right wing parties are gaining in places like the region of Saxony. These uniforms should not be paraded around especially when there are people who would serve to honor them in the crowd.

Yes, the SS were nothing to be proud of, but not all German soldiers were SS, and not all German soldiers knew everything that was going on.Most were fighting for their country, doing what was asked of them. Those are the ones we must honor and remember. And may I ask why is there an American flag in the picture? This is German history not US history.

The American flags appear to be on an American jeep. That's probably the reason. It was probably in poor taste to include the SS uniform, but I find it difficult to exclude it. Doesn't that sort of rewrite history? Removing them from the record? I cannot imagine that there is any military from any period in time that didn't commit crimes. Granted, not so heinous as some NAZI troops. To sum it up, I think it is too complex of an issue to be solved in this post.

Why is there a US flag? Read the story.

"The Nazi-uniformed parade participants were followed by a group of marchers dressed as American soldiers, to represent the US Army's liberation of the region at the end of the war. "

Sounds pretty much like Germany history to me.

If they were taking part in some historical reenactment somewhere and wanted to wear those uniforms fine. But it seems to me that little runt in the SS getup is just a bit too proud of grandpa.

I totally agree with "frequent flyer": Lighten up., and by the way if you think the guy in the black uniform is SS you are sadly mistaken, because he is a member of a Panzer regiment. The Russians, who have committed war crimes as serious as the Germans do not hesitate to show their communist symbols. I was impressed by that fact when I visited there. And, surprise surprise, they manage quite well to sort things out. Why do the Germans have this servile, unhealthy attitude? Do they think it changes anything in their history? Next thing you know they'll apologize for breathing clean air.

Arkwren's comment is spot on and very insightful: ("Parades usuually represent something that is being celebrated or honored.")

Thank you for expressing that so clearly.

more evil than Dachau, Sobibor, Treblinka, Aushwitz-Birkenau? Get a perspective please.

Look, while there are people still alive who were resident in these camps the bans on swastikas, nazi salutes and uniforms and the convention by which the Nazi Reich should not be venerated will need to continue.

Why am I under the impression that half the posters on this thread are nazis? The SS were not men of honor. They were the nazi goons and went out of theyre way to excel at being the scum they were. No regular soldier would act as they did.

Spoken like a true Holocaust denying puke. Yes, 6 million is but a tiny portion of those killed during the war. That's why their systematic extermination is so meaningless.

Why do neo-nazis and other trolls join this board just to spout rubbish? And what are they doing in front of a PC at 8am on a Saturday? Go out, get some exercise and start talking to girls, teenage nerds!

Ho hum. The six million soldiers had guns. They could at least defend themselves. Or they could have run away. Or risen up against the regime. Or not voted for the nsdap in the first place. Many choices not available to innocent camp victims.

They are just the usual bunch of idiots you can find in any comment section of an online newspaper. The problem is that comments on The Local are automatically posted to the board. Your and my post on the other hand will now show up in The Local. I dont like this at all - at least it´s a constant source of confusion.

"Displaying Nazi symbols is against the law in Germany though the club's members had apparently removed the forbidden swastikas and SS runes from the uniforms." - from the original article in The Local

Back to the topic as I see it: symbols, their meanings, and German law banning any visible displays associated with Nazis.

I've always been dismayed at how a common religious symbol more than 3000 years old got hijacked by the Nazis and ended up representing such unspeakable horrors. Yet in India the swastika continues to be used in its original, traditional meaning. The most common meaning is a good luck symbol, which is how it got its name, a combination of the Sanskrit words "well" (sv) and "is" (asti). It remains a symbol of the gods Vishnu and Surya, as well as representing the sun in India. Some North American Indians also use it to represent the sun. Buddhists also use a form of the swastika to represent the goddess Kali, and it can be seen in Hindu art and architecture, as well as being used as decoration for special Hindu events like marriages and celebrations.

I was reminded of all this by a story recently (May 20, 2009) from Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper reporter Stephanie Nolen. Called "Want to avoid swastikas in India? Good luck.", she writes about her experience in being confronted by the swastika and her emotional reaction.

"After seven months here, I'm getting used to the ubiquity of this ancient good-luck symbol, but it always gives me a moment's pause. For someone from the West, the immediate association, of course, is always with the Nazi emblem."

She had trouble at first in accepting the original meaning of the symbol, since as a Westerner she's usually only associated it with Nazis. Yet as she got to learn more about its original meanings, it became slightly easier for her to live with seeing it on a daily basis:

"In some ways, it is gratifying to see how impervious Indian culture is to this dark episode that hijacked a religious symbol; the swastika adorns wedding cakes and jewellery and bags from upscale shops."

Given Germany's history, I can understand that the combination of the swastika with a uniform gives horrendous memories of the atrocities of WWII. Yet the symbol on its own has a much deeper and completely different meaning. Germans have been so indoctrinated with the idea that the swastika is somehow evil in and of itself, that many find it completely impossible to accept its other, more widely used aspects. Too bad we can't make every German spend half a year in India. After being flooded with the symbol in its proper context, perhaps Germans would realise that they do a disservice by discrediting and banning something with a long and rich cultural and religious history.

I'd like to think that some day Buddhists and Hindus would be free once more to use their traditional symbols openly in Germany. But I'm not holding my breath. To the vast majority of Germans, the swastika can only have one meaning, as a badge of shame.

edit: I've changed the quotes to italics so that they will also appear on The Local

"and by the way if you think the guy in the black uniform is SS you are sadly mistaken, because he is a member of a Panzer regiment."

Sure, Bernie. The tank regiments were the guys with little skulls on their lapels.

yes. For all the wrongs of war, soldiers are fighting men who know the risks when they are in battle action.

Well how 'bout that. Indeed it is, Sarge. Mr panzer regiment is still a smug little braun runt though.

are you trying to claim there were 6 million soldiers who died at the Rheinwiesenlager? Get your facts straight please. In total there were 3.4 million German troops hld by the allies at war end of which 1 million were stationed in the Rhine camps. These camps were only intended to house a maximum of about 200,000 and were quickly overwhelmed by the numbers. Substantial blame can be heaped on the allies for the failure to adequately manage the situation but the estimates of those who died from starvation and disease in the weeks when the camps were poorly organised was between 3,000 and 10,000.

I was about to post that and see that others have beaten me to it. The panzer uniform had death's heads, and rather fetching pink piping on the collar badges. Which it looks like that chap has, going by the small photo.

you claimed that the allied treatment of German POWs in the Rhine camps was more evil than anything that Germany did in the war, though I see you have now deleted that post.

so do you now agree that probably less than 10,000 (attrocious by any standards I grant you) German POW camps died in the Rhine camps and their deaths were the result of poor planning rather than malicious intent?

prove your numbers bell the cat.

from wikipedia:

Excuse me please but the rhine meadow death camps have been proven as a historical fact from files found in the pentagon archives. A book was written based on these files by Canadian author Mr James Bacque (Other Losses) and the death count is approx up to a full Million German soldiers most of which were Wehrmacht conscripts. Eisenhower had their POW status removed so that they would no longer be protected by the Geneva Convention and thus they were renamed 'Disarmed Enemy Forces'. When General Patton realised what Eisenhower was planning he specifically released all Wehrmacht personnel in his captivity. I urge anyone whom wants the facts before them and proof of it to read the book 'Other Losses' by James Bacque. I think if people did more research instead of believing hook, line and sinker what allied historians tell them they would be quite shocked to find out the actual amount of war crimes committed by the allies in ww2.

Bacque actually gives a figure of 790,000 for ALL camps of German soldiers under US control and not just the Rhine Meadow camps.

Have you read the book 'Other Losses' in full from start to finish? Go and read the book proper and then come back to the forum with your total figure of murdered German prisoners after WW2 had ended. The word murder is used because such a large number of these men were killed in actual peacetime. It is clear to see why the allies had tried to cover this up for so long. Remember during this period of history the USA was still an active racist nation with apartheid laws in place. Those whom write the history are always kind to themselves are they not.

so Fitzgerald to take it back to where it was introduced here. Do you agree that Eisenhowers treatment of German POWs was 'more evil' than the actions of Nazi Germany before the end of the war?

Which are of the lesser or is it greater Evils? I have noticed growing up there has been a specific western focus upon the whole period of this Third Reich Germany. Hollywood and specifically the western media are obsessed with it which is quite amusing for any serious historian. Evil is not confined to any one regime and we have humankind evil actions all around us still today. Down through history we have empires built on invasion and blood spilling and all of them can rightly be accused of being evil for murdering those whom tried to stop them or who were deemed as undesirables. Take your pick as you will have several evil regimes to choose from. Was Eisenhower evil? Was Churchill and Roosevelt evil? Was Stalin evil? Hitler appears your favourite evil leader I can presume? Let me ask you this question- Are you sure you have been told the actual truth about WW2 and by that I mean pre-WW2, WW2, and post WW2.

Fair enough but that is hardly relevant to the context of this thread.

Getting back to the OP, I fully support the ban on nazi symbolism but if truth be told I would prefer to abolish all overt displays of militarism (German, US, British etc) when not related to actual armed forces personnel.

Did anyone ask if they were wearing stockings and suspenders under the uniforms?????????

I wonder if Intel in Phoenix, Arizona would be interested in your views on Jewish people jimmyjames? . . . (just had a look at your past posts)

Go crawl back under your rock and die. Geez, what is with all these idiots invading TT recently?

The Rhine Meadow Camps

There were 16 U.S. camps out in the open meadows where German POW's were interred.

They were not housed because there was no housing, no shelter of any kind.

The worst were Bad Kreuznach-Bretzenheim, Remagen-Sinzig, Rheinberg (north of Cologne opened April 17, was six miles in circumference ), Heidesheim, Wickrathberg, and B?ich. Other camps were Camp Kripp near Remagen, Bingen camp near Bad Kreuznach in the Rhineland, and Dietersheim camp near Mainz. Malnutrition, starvation, and exposure to the elements continued in the camps

Months ahead of the German surrender, the allies created a new legal designation for POWs as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" (DEF). This allowed them to circumvent the rules of the Geneva Convention.

The existence of these camps was not common knowledge until James Bacque, a Canadian, published his book, "Other Losses," in 1989. 1 million German soldiers died in U.S. captivity

what, everyone at Intel is a Jew-hating Nazi? Well I never. I guess Germany needs to start a boycott of every computer with Intel inside then

Quick! somebody. ANYbody!

What IS jimmyjames doing here on the TT forum?

AGAINST banning paintball in Germany, but i kinda missed his point in the threadAGAINST 'organised' religion (what's that? like 'organised crime'?), and now the tirade against the jews. Not getting it, people!AGAINST auslanders griping about not being accepted at par with the fantastic german edu system. Ok - getting the point but (very) few agreed with the pointAGAINST gun control. Periodand in light of this gemhe isn't winning any friends for himself or Intel.

Finally, as Bellthecat pointed out - based at Intel, Phoenix, Arizona.

Interesting choice of topics. And forum.

Theres sommat to be said for it...

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People, stop the personal attacks on each other.

Life is about expressing ones point of view and not enforcing it on others. The uniforms stand for the suppression of free speech and individuality.

I would lay money on it that these guys are getting a sexual thrill when they dress up. Its about small boring people feeling sexually empowered by the uniform and its aurora. I bet they are all a little firm as they walk down the street dreaming that they could murderer and rape with impunity.

Best of luck to them if that's what it takes to ying there yang. But at least have the balls to take the tape off the badges.

No, taking the tape off the Nazi symbols is against German law. Displaying a Nazi-era uniform with the symbols taped over is technically legal.

I was recently at an auction where there were several authentic and reproduction uniforms, daggers, plus various medals being offered. They also had some of the certificates that go with the medals, all stamped with the swastika. Every single swastika had a little yellow round sticker on it. Without thinking about it, I asked one of the guys working at the auction if that was really necessary because it seemed really silly to me. They explained that by taping over the symbols they were strictly adhering to German law which forbids their display. I could only shake my head at the absurdity.

Can you imagine a serious collector of Spanish Civil War memorabilia comes to view the medals, and ends up confronted by this?

(attached image)

The Spanish Cross (Spanienkreuz) or Kondor Legion Cross was instituted April 14th, 1939 to recognize German Forces who served in the Spanish Civil War (July 1936- March 1939).

OK, I admit that at the auction they were just plain yellow circles.

jimmyjames, the thing about fascism is that it isn't just a political philosophy of the white man. There have been african, japanese and indian fascist and nazi-sympathizers over time. I see no reason why there couldn't be native american fascists too though you are the first I have ever encountered.

Next week they are dressing up as the village people.

Yes, modern reservations are just like concentration camps. The germans used to head to Auschwitz to gamble and buy tax free smokes.

And I am Cleopatra. Hasn't anyone noticed the similarity between "jimmyjames", "condor", "BastianK" and "Lestat"? They seem to be very closely related. Either that or TT has attracted a sudden rash of Nazi sympathisers.