September 6, 2010
Published: 15 Jun 09 17:30 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090615-19945.html
Half of all immigrants feel like outsiders in German society and say their achievements find less acknowledgement than those of Germans, according to a survey released Monday.
The Local (news@thelocal.de)
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Your comments about this article:
I wonder why?
Why 500,000 educated immigrants cannot use their university training in Germany?
Because Germans do not know what is bachelor degree, they only recognise diplom
Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a person who spent 5 years in university?
But sometimes they go a step ahead and try to treat Diplom and Masters degree. Well how can they expect to be treated equally with someone who has spent 6 years in University?
I opine that Germany should improvise their immigration and integration programs.Because the country is not in a position to let the immigrants RETURN (aging population, failing social system, negative birthrate)
But going back to the article, I think Germans should wake up and see that people who graduated from other universities are just as competent as their own (or in some cases, sometimes better).
Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a p…
1 HARVARD University United States
2 YALE University United States
3 University of CAMBRIDGE United Kingdom
4 University of OXFORD United Kingdom
5 CALIFORNIA Institute of Technology (Calt... United States
6 IMPERIAL College London United Kingdom
7 UCL (University College London) United Kingdom
8 University of CHICAGO United States
9 MASSACHUSETTS Institute of Technology (M... United States
10 COLUMBIA University United States
11 University of PENNSYLVANIA United States
12 PRINCETON University United States
13= DUKE University United States
13= JOHNS HOPKINS University United States
15 CORNELL University United States
16 AUSTRALIAN National University Australia
17 STANFORD University United States
18 University of MICHIGAN United States
19 University of TOKYO Japan
20 MCGILL University Canada
[post="1633508">This aspect of human valuation has been seen before.[/post] This attitude most definitely plays a part in how immigrants are treated and how they feel.
This subject is a dead horse, but to be sure, whichever foreign country you are from, the people here will regard you as an outsider. Whether its respectfully done or not.
Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a p…
My BA degree was 4 years. Not all BAs are 3 years long. Besides, certain courses are more compact/condensed than others. You cannot compare the 2 systems. The German government should at least recognise that a Bachelor's Degree is the acceptable qualification from university level.
I also hear this "Germany has the best Universities, so much better than US ones" line. Usually from Germans that thinks of themselves as an academic / philosopher / thinker (ie. that assertion helps to define their status) but don't bother / aren't able to work for a living. Maybe it was true 60 years ago, I don't know, but it's simply out of date now.
I only hold a BEng from an Irish University - frankly I thought the tuition was - but the Yanks from the Ivy League colleges who were on exchange courses all thought it was far superior to what they had at home.
According to whom?
Top 20 lists are stupid (especially for universities), haven't you ever watched Letterman?
How do you rank a university anyway? Number of Nobel Laureates on the faculty? Number of patents held? Average pay for an undergraduates first job? How about costliest tuition? Most applications for under-grad positions? Any one of these criteria are incredibly narrow minded. Even taken together they miss some of the most important aspects of what an education is all about.
Rankings like this are garbage spewed out by USA Today and Forbes Magazine when they have nothing else to print.
I double majored way back when and it took me 5 1/2 years to graduate where I know some today who are graduating in 4 with a double major.
Top 20 lists are stupid (especially for universities), haven't you ever watched Letterman?
How do you rank a …
Pretty catchy.
...the article says integration...
Now, the kid not going to the established school in Germany for their respective studies (e.g. Heidelberg for law and so on), that's gossip material in certain German circles.
Generalising I know but many Germans seem to be sceptical about foreigners (foreigners being anyone not coming from the same town/village) rather than hostile.
Coming back to the actual article, it does highlight a key point already made / discussed several times before that "immigrants miss the recognition of native German citizens". I have come across a lot of "Gastarbeiter" families (including Greeks, Italians and not just limited to Turkish) and their next generations who share this feeling very strongly that they have not received any due recognition for their contribution in rebuilding Germany.
Was wondering that too, because i can't remember any German bragging to…
Sorry, Tom_a and Kato,
It has happened numerous times to me where it is not so out there in thought, but it is practice. Oh and knew a Turkish family here in Germany whose son is in Oklahoma studying Engineering. I asked some why get the degree from the States and they said better value for their Euro and the kid can always come home and still study.
...Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World.
There are other reasons to feel like an outsider here. I've mentioned it before, but the fact that they expect you to cut all formal ties to your country of origin (by renouncing your citizenship) before you can take on German citizenship - thus leaving most migrants disenfranchised, is a big thing. And whilst they keep this unreasonable demand in place, I don't think they can complain about people not integrating properly here. It has to be a 2-way street as far as I'm concerned...
As somebody else already mentioned, a Harvard law degree is obviously useless …
You really need to get out and about and see what is going on in your own country. I am not the one saying your Universities are not up to par it is your own citizens who go abroad or send their child abroad. I am just repeating what I hear and know and have witnessed. Again, what you are seeing as unusual has not been that unusual to my hearing and witnessing what your citizens are telling me. Again I am just repeating here what has been versed to me by Germans, sorry Tom_a
I for one certainly wouldn't.
Those are your opinions and what I was telling were opinions of your citizens, sorry Tom_a .
What is more important imo is to take a closer look at the numbers of families who have lived all their lives here, or perhaps are even into their second or third generation, and still haven't chosen to get German citizenship. That's a serious problem, since these folks have obviously put down strong roots and are somehow already integrated into German society yet for whatever reason haven't made that final commitment. The new citizenship rules were supposed to encourage people to get German citizenship, yet it seems that the numbers are actually decreasing. Not good.
Yet the examples given here of people studying at some US online university or in Oaklahoma "to save money" are pretty bizarre. These people probably simply weren´t accepted by German universities. There is a considerable number of German students who are studying medicine in Budapest, after all. They certainly don´t study there because Hungarian universities do have a particularly good reputation in that field.
Again, This is what They Told me.
eurovol's list of top Uni's is flawed. My alma mater (UC Berkeley) is not on there.
Anyway, I had no problem getting a job here with a BA and MA that had nothing to do with my job.
Frankly, an "online ph.d." more often than not means "buying" your degree.
(attached image)
That said, I know more than one German who got an LLM from Harvard, Yale, etc. to supplement a German legal education because it is more academic (more emphasis on legal reasoning rather than memorizaton of the law) than what is generally taught in German legal education. Most American lawyers get a Juris Doctor (JD), not an LLM (masters), although it is becoming popular to get an LLM as well.
Edi: a second glance picks up Fraunhofer not Frauenhofer as well
Maybe the real question is not " do you feel like an outsider" but "do you feel discriminated against?"
And in Germany its not recogn…[/quote]I know about 30 kids that are studying abroad (US, UK and Can) and not here for their Uni programs - and they are all german kids (some from International schools the rest gymasium), their parents are sending them off to school for 'better education and more options' (those are their words not mine).
I also know of a few very well off lawyers here in Germany that have studied in the US (Harvard) and are able to work here (well, then again they are German).
I get reminded every day that I am a foreigner, I get told it often by people (patients, sales clerks, people in my apartment building) "oh, there goes the Canadian girl! "
Edi: a second glance picks up Fraunhofer not Frauenhofer as well
a) to practice law in Germany you need to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after your university education, the second after a Referendardienst (somewhat comparable to a pupillage in England) where you practice the law at court, as a public prosecutor, in public administration and as a lawyer. That´s about the most comprehensive legal education you can get. Any masters degree is a nice add on if you want to work in an international law firm but completely irrelevant to being admitted to practice law
2. sure, every reasonable person would spend serious money to send his kid to study engineering in Oklahoma despite having very good engineering universities basically for free. At least I´m not aware that Oklahoma has a reputation like MIT
a) to practice law in Germany you neeed to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after…
a) to practice law in Germany you need to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after your university education, the…
Apparently, they have one such program specializing in "beam physics".
Oh dear, yes, there was an superfluous "a" in Oklahoma. Big f***ing deal. Is it my fault that they can't even spell their own name properly over there? You are trying to peddle the idea here that tons of people here are so eager to send their kids to the US and all you can come up with are two anecdotal examples. It is quite normal that people want to spend some time at university abroad as part of their studies. I did so myself. That is quite different to claiming that university education in Germany is inferior to what you get abroad. Finally I´ve got some news for you with regard to Turks in Germany. They can study at German universities just like anyone else. There is no need to bang on about Turks vs. Germans.
Apparently, they have one such program specializing in "beam physics".
W…[/quote]I am not the one saying anything other than there are citizens in Germany who have said to me they send their family members to universities in the States. It is you and tom_a , who wanted answers about how and why and where. I am not "banging about" Turkish people in Germany or about Germans. You wanted answers about the two whom I gave information about. All I was doing was giving answers. I also gave instances of Germans who asked for help in living quarters for their child while they attended university in the States where are all the questions about them?
What? The University they attended was in Michigan State. What are you talking about? I never mentioned Michigan State University.…
You wrote "Michigan State" with a capital "S".
That comminly refers to Michigan State University.
Doesn't it?
Sorry not to clarify. State. Michigan the State.
(Oh, I said I was sorry.)
Kind of on topic, I saw a news piece not so long ago that had tons of foreign investors buying up all the foreclosed houses in the Detroit area. They're just going to rent them out to the Americans that couldn't afford them in the first place, but there's something funny about foreign investors making land grabs in Detroit.
Due to the computer industry in Austin, you must accept folks from Silicon Valley, CA moving in. Don't worry, most are originally from India.
I was talking to a Michigonian (just made that up) friend and we both agreed it's pathetic that the University of Michigan and Michigan State haven't done more to generate sustainable business partnerships with the city of Detroit. It seems they get their fancy UM degree and split for Chicago the first chance they get.
Edit: But this is way off topic. I don't feel welcome here because I can't even get the damn bank account I want.
Here in Germany, well... we moved into this house in Aug 2007 and I still haven't met some of my nearer neighbours. I wasn't going to go around ringing doorbells and introducing myself, and only one came over to say hello. The rest I've been meeting slowly over time, usually because after seeing the same face out on the street time after time, I've approached them myself. And I'm living in quite a small country community rather than the more anonymous big city where I'd expect a bit less neighbourly friendliness.
If our experience is typical, then it's no wonder that some folks have a real hard time fitting in. And I truly miss doing the "welcome wagon" thing, since it was always fun and interesting to meet the new neighbours. But instead of hearing stories of friendly neighbours, I seem to only hear about wars and battles and lawsuits and nosy neighbours. Quite a difference, and definitely took some getting used to.
They continue to email us, and will visit us in CA when we are settled!
After almost two years here, I'm just starting to settle in and I still don't truly feel like a part of this community. I'd likely also end up being listed as one of those still feeling like an outsider, even though I'm quite comfortably integrated and don't have any major difficulties with life in general. The feeling I have isn't one of anger or bitterness. Instead, I feel a bit like there's a tight knit high school clique that I yearn to become a part of, but nobody is willing to bring me in and teach me the secret handshake.
In Germany, I don't really have any neighbours except my landlady and she's plenty nice but my friends who live close to me had their neighbours from both sides show up at the guys bday party. I am not sure if they invited them.
When living in the States it seems the neighbors come in like a flood to welcome you and then you do not see them again unless you make the effort to go outside. People there are in their cars then the garage then house. Here at least everyone is outside and walks by and says good morning or hello and stops and talks a little even if they are in a hurry.
The feeling of "outsiderness" starts right from the off when you move to Germany due to the many forms of protectionism and "Ordnung" that Germany puts in your path. For example:
Banking and Money
Maestro debit cards are a European standard, but most places in Germany don't accept 'em. Credit cards? Forget it. So I'll just open another account with my UK/US/Whatever bank at one of their German branches - simple! Err, uh-uh - because they don't have any branches in Germany due to German banking laws. Fail. Result: you PDQ have to go through all the hoops of opening an account at a German bank in order for your life to operate at even a basic level of normality; you feel you're being forced, not doing it at your pace.
Outsiderness Value *****
Getting your residence permit / tax card / etc.
Multiple threads already exist on this one, so no need to labour the point. Some Auslanderburoen work like clockwork, and some don't - but the mere level of paperwork you have to complete is staggering, as is the to-ing and fro-ing. Doesn't exactly make you feel welcome in the Bundesrepublik.
Outsiderness Value ****
Ordnung in general
Salting the street / steps outside your house in the winter, observing the Quiet Time, not being able to wash your car at home, chimney sweeps and their para-military access rights, recycling procedures - all these add to a new arrival's "WTF? factor". Some of them are of course sensible public safety and municipal management measures, but it's the extent of them that merits an:
Outsiderness Value of *****
The staring thing...
Quite. Once you've been in Germany a while, you realise it's normal over here - but for new arrivals...
Outsiderness value ****
Spargel and Strawberries*
I'm all for seasonal and locally-sourced produce, but let's face it - the strawberry and spargel thing goes just a little too far.
Outsiderness value *****
I'm sure there's lots of other things we could list here that really add to the culture shock when you first arrive in Germany, but my point is that first impressions last, and no matter how friendly and helpful your neighbours and the local community turn out to be (and in our case, both have been wonderful), most people's first steps in Germany are hobbled by seemingly unlimited obstacles. And that sticks in the psyche.
K
*surely I'm allowed one frivolous listing...?
[post="1017595">I have broadcast their various antics on this site ad nauseum[/post]. I've determined that I must be part of some massive Candid Camera/Truman Show experiment, because these people can't be for real.
It's a bit like the first rule of motorcycle safety: Always assume you're invisible to them, or the one time you're not paying attention they'll do you in.
I have a German mother and I know Berlin quite well.
I am back in D'dorf and this area for the fifth time - this stay has been nearly 9 years long.
I have a degree in German; I translate from German.
Mum cooked goulash and baked STreuselkuchen as well as making roast beef and Yorkshire pudding with apple pie to follow.
And after all this time, after spending more of my adult life in Germany than in the UK, I still go round thinking "God, look at this Jugenstil architecture. Wow, I'm living in Germany! Wow, look at the bread shops!" Etc.
When I go back to Wales for the first time in absolutely years, I shall probably be doing the same thing in reverse: "God, look at the outside water pipes. What horribly draughty windows. Oh, God, where's the decent bread." Etc.
Fremdenhaß und Fremdenangst although common to many cultures across the globe, has always been stronger and deep-rooted amongst Germans. Well, can?t really blame them, while our neighbours were busy colonizing, plundering and exterminating or enslaving indigenous people across the world - possibly killing more innocent people globally than the horrendous German Holocaust ? the German tribes were busy fighting themselves or being peasants. They really didn?t get a chance to grow, see, learn about the world beyond their stagnant pond and become true global citizens. The war defeat may have also subconsciously added to Fremdenhaß und Fremdenangst.
But that was then; modern post-war Germany should have no excuses or tolerance towards such behavior, especially given our past. For F*$#@?s sake, we had thousands of Gastarbeiter who helped us rebuild this country and become the global power we are today, but let?s not forget with power comes responsibility and a greater need for humility. Did we ever turn around, acknowledge and thank them, if not, then how different are we from the Nazi?s or the ruthless colonial powers or the pimp on the street who feeds off others toil? The integration programme fails miserably because it?s more of a one-way forced assimilation programme, wherein we force the immigrant communities to become Germans understand and do things the German way, however, we do not do much about teaching ourselves, the receiving community, about accepting and respecting immigrants. Correct me if I am wrong, one cant plant a sapling into alien soil if the soil doesn?t support its growth.
We all look up to the USA and worship Obama but we tend to overlook the fact that the US is in fact made up of immigrants from all over the world and the world?s favorite leader is coloured and he hails from the immigrant community. We have long pointed a finger at the US on racism and now the ball is in our court and the question we need to answer is where Germany?s Obama is!?
Not that I think that Merkel is the best leader we could have, but I find your suggestion a bit unproductive.
Amazing that there is loads of stuff on this thread about how ace US universities are, but the super-intellectual, very well educated alumni that they churn out can still get all excited just because some guy kept saying "hope and change" over and over and over and over and over and over and over..
don_riina- excellent comments in your last post.
And a place of sufficient size and secluded privacy that it can serve as a native-free oasis; UK satellite TV, pretty much everything ordered in online, lots to do outside on one's own acreage, etc. From the descriptions I read here, I wouldn't have made it here eight months, much less eight years, in closer quarters and/or any kind of rental. Since they choose to shun and discriminate against foreigners in the neighborhood apartheid-style, they get the double cold shoulder from us in return.
My German wife can handle interactions with service personnel, doorbell rings and incoming krautsquawk telephone calls, etc. But somehow at the shops my money's always good enough for them to take; funny, that ... guess they go in back and wash their hands after touching it and/or use a pair of tongs to take it to the bank. The kids (Mischlinge, or Amischweine, as the neighbors charmly refer to them) are now old enough and can pretty much pass as slightly swarthier versions of bona fide Germans and speak the lingo well enough that I can even venture into public areas on occasion as long as they're with me; they know how to dial up and deal with the local cops when we're called names or otherwise harrassed on the street. They take care of me a lot like the mother in What's Eating Gilbert Grape, and in return, I do my best to create an insulated, happy home environment like William Hurt did The Village.
So, outside of getting sniped at by the natives here on TT, I have most inevitably negative teutonic interactions pretty much whittled down to getting stared at for c. 45 minutes a day on the train, but that's why God created sunglasses, walkmen and broadsheet newspapers.
The UK is not part of europe?
#Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World.#
If you think dividing student at young age (gymnasium, realschule, hauptschule) is good education system, then, what u said is right.
Based on PISA findings, German students were one of the bad scorers in terms of science and math.
#If the immigrants are feeling that put out by their new life in Germany then by all means RETURN to your native country,culture,religion, and educational system.#
No, they don't have to , you have to change, or else Return to your mother's vagina.
How did a topic that started out to be about how foreigners feel in Germany get to be about American politics? Is there even any use in asking?
- You can't speak the german language properly.
- Even if you speak passable german, you cannot be employed, because we will first search for a german citizen, then an EU citizen to take the job you were offered before we will think about considering you.
- The only way you can be employed in germany is if you are an IT professional... we can then overlook your 'inadequacies'.
- Why don't you go back to your country - I'm sure you are overqualified than the people there, so you can get a job there easily.
All these were said, without his getting basic background information about the people that asked the question. If this attitude is what the immigrants have to face... well then...
There's no need to pretend that you have an anything but a uniformly negative view of the US, Oblomov, nor that you are at all open to any criticism whatsoever of your own country. That an ethnic Turks founded Oger Tours and an ethnic Turk who naturalized as a German became a Green Party leader doesn't mean that all is well for foreigners here.
This may be of interest:
http://migration.uni-konstanz.de/content/c...Loeffelholz.pdf
Let me also stress that the economic difficulties faced by foreigners in Germany as a group are not solely the fault of Germans. Since it is a complex, multifaceted topic it's hard to say who is more at fault, but let's not pretend that there is equal opportunity here.
Anyway...
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutsc...eutsche;1060418
The article is from 2006, and states that 1 out of every 3 Turks was unemployed, and over half of Russian immigrants were as well. A significant number of those Turks, BTW, and quite likely a majority, were actually born and raised in Germany, so presumably the figure for those actually immigrating from Turkey was even worse than that one in three figure.
Speaking of CEOs, here's one Mexican immigrant to the US that became one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_Ruiz
I wouldn't assume that no immigrant from Turkey ever became the CEO of a similarly-sized German company other than one he/she founded, but if it has happened I am not aware of it.
As a matter of fact, Mexico reports having to deal with an influx of returning citizens who have left the US due to limited opportunities in the poor economy.
However, just to be finicky, your anecdotal examples don't prove much:
1. One Mexican-born CEO can be a simple coincidence. If you can name 5 among major US corporates, that'd be a different story.
2. The percentage of Mexican immigrants compared to US population is far higher than the percentage of Turkish immigrants compared to German population.
If you are that interested in finding out about Mexican-Americans business leaders/professionals do a wikisearch.
The big exception is Barbara Kux, member of the board of Siemens, who is both a foreign national (Swiss) as well as a woman.
As a group, Mexican immigrants to the US are not the most successful immigrant group, but there are obviously many success stories from this group with achievements which are somewhat more modest than becoming the CEO of a large multinational. There are plenty of Turkish success stories in Germany as well, but the real issue is the overall success of the group. The relevant apples-to-apples comparison would be legal Mexican immigrants to the US v.s. legal Turkish immigrants to Germany while tamping out the effects of illegal immigration by members of the two groups to the relevant destination country. Perhaps we could also compare first generation Mexican-Americans with first generation "Germano-Turks".
EDIT: here is a link of interest as regards Mexican immigrants to the US: http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/47.pdf
And for migrant women there is the double burden.