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Study finds half of German immigrants feel like outsiders

Published: 15 Jun 09 17:30 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090615-19945.html

Half of all immigrants feel like outsiders in German society and say their achievements find less acknowledgement than those of Germans, according to a survey released Monday.

The Bertelsmann Foundation surveyed 1,581 immigrants and found that those from Turkey and Russia were most likely to feel like an outsider in their adopted country: 61 percent of Turkish immigrants and 55 percent of Russian immigrants said they lacked the recognition of native German citizens.

But of those interviewed, 69 percent of German immigrants were happy in their new country. Eighty percent said they had confidence in the German government, compared to 58 percent of the general German population.

"That most immigrants are happy with their lives here is a positive signal for Germany as a place to immigrate to,” said Dr. Jörg Dräger, a board member of the Bertelsmann Foundation. “However, integration isn’t a one-sided process. If more Turkish and Russian immigrants are to make themselves at home in Germany, they need more recognition and chances to redesign the future.”

While 58 percent of survey respondents said they felt like an integral part of German society, another five percent felt as though they had no part in it at all. A further 41 percent of respondents said they were equally connected with their homeland as they were with Germany, with three quarters of those adding that they hoped to keep their native traditions as well as adopt German traditions.

When it comes to opportunities immigrants have in Germany, 79 percent said they were happy with their jobs and 77 percent were content with their current living situation. However, when it comes to their families, 42 percent of immigrants said their children have fewer educational opportunities than their native German classmates. In the third generation of immigrant families, that number even jumps to 52 percent.

“Without fair opportunities at education, neither integration nor participation can succeed,” said Dräger.

Maria Böhmer, the head of the German government’s integration efforts acknowledged more needed to be done to recognise achievements made in an immigrant’s native country, such as education.

“Everyone in Germany should get a chance, regardless of where they come from,” said Böhmer. “It’s scandalous that 500,000 educated immigrants cannot use their university training in Germany.”

Most immigrant’s degrees are not recognised by German employers, and many then have to go through retraining programme.

The study was conducted across Germany, surveying immigrants aged 16 and older from Turkey, Russia, Kazakhstan, Poland, Italy, Croatia, Spain and Greece.

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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20:37 June 15, 2009 by eddymanly
Clearly, immigrants are happy with Germany, but not happy with Germans.

I wonder why?

Why 500,000 educated immigrants cannot use their university training in Germany?

Because Germans do not know what is bachelor degree, they only recognise diplom
00:32 June 16, 2009 by LMB222
Bachelor degree is a new thing in Europe, so it's not surprising it's not recognized.

Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a person who spent 5 years in university?
09:28 June 16, 2009 by janred
It is true that Germany recognizes most degrees in other countries which have a comparable educational system.

But sometimes they go a step ahead and try to treat Diplom and Masters degree. Well how can they expect to be treated equally with someone who has spent 6 years in University?

I opine that Germany should improvise their immigration and integration programs.Because the country is not in a position to let the immigrants RETURN (aging population, failing social system, negative birthrate)
10:11 June 16, 2009 by chingq
Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World
I don't agree totally. Not all schools here are superior or maybe I just went to the wrong school. The school I went to prides itself by being accredited by ACQUINN and saying that their program gives a holistic approach in giving a master's degree in business. Program is run by idiots. The more exotic your country, the better your chance of getting in, never mind if you can't even speak or even write a decent paper in English, even though the program is TAUGHT in English. Some people have never even written a report in their lives. Still, some subjects were ok, but I just felt like I never grew academically because what I learned back in my university was better than what I learned here. In my school, our professors had to have PhDs before they could teach and had to be published in economic journals every year. Last semester, we had a subject taught by a recent graduate of our same program. How stupid is that?

But going back to the article, I think Germans should wake up and see that people who graduated from other universities are just as competent as their own (or in some cases, sometimes better).
10:13 June 16, 2009 by eurovol
Bachelor degree is a new thing in Europe, so it's not surprising it's not recognized.

Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a p…
Quality over quantity! Here is the top 20 universities in the world. I don't see Germany in there. However, if you were to ask around, I will bet most Germans will say that their Unis occupy half of the top twenty spots. Of course this is baseless just like the world's biggest joke that Germany and efficiency have anything whatsoever to do with each other.

1 HARVARD University United States

2 YALE University United States

3 University of CAMBRIDGE United Kingdom

4 University of OXFORD United Kingdom

5 CALIFORNIA Institute of Technology (Calt... United States

6 IMPERIAL College London United Kingdom

7 UCL (University College London) United Kingdom

8 University of CHICAGO United States

9 MASSACHUSETTS Institute of Technology (M... United States

10 COLUMBIA University United States

11 University of PENNSYLVANIA United States

12 PRINCETON University United States

13= DUKE University United States

13= JOHNS HOPKINS University United States

15 CORNELL University United States

16 AUSTRALIAN National University Australia

17 STANFORD University United States

18 University of MICHIGAN United States

19 University of TOKYO Japan

20 MCGILL University Canada

[post="1633508">This aspect of human valuation has been seen before.[/post] This attitude most definitely plays a part in how immigrants are treated and how they feel.
10:16 June 16, 2009 by eurovol
Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World.
See what I mean. You are either German or been brain washed Germanified.
10:19 June 16, 2009 by dessa_dangerous
LOL well it's not just the professionals and students, poll everyone from somewhere else and see if at least half don't feel like outsiders.

This subject is a dead horse, but to be sure, whichever foreign country you are from, the people here will regard you as an outsider. Whether its respectfully done or not.
10:26 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
If Germany had such wonderful Universities why do the German's brag about sending their children to top US universities or wanting to send them?
10:33 June 16, 2009 by Katrina
Come on, German universities are so good that their students just don't want to leave them...
10:33 June 16, 2009 by ukpunk1
If Germany had such wonderful Universities why do the German's brag about sending their children to top US universities or wanting to send them?
Agreed!
10:36 June 16, 2009 by the_eagle
Then there are many people who dont want to be part of this German scene are here only to score major cash , enjoy the scene and get the hell out when the time arrives!! So these surveys have to be taken with a pinch of salt really...
10:54 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
Obviously we all should believe that anyone who hasn´t studied at an English language university can only be a fool...
11:03 June 16, 2009 by UrbanAngel
Bachelor degree is a new thing in Europe, so it's not surprising it's not recognized.

Why are you expecting to be treated equally with a p…
So LMB222 does not think that England is in Europe?

My BA degree was 4 years. Not all BAs are 3 years long. Besides, certain courses are more compact/condensed than others. You cannot compare the 2 systems. The German government should at least recognise that a Bachelor's Degree is the acceptable qualification from university level.
11:09 June 16, 2009 by eurovol
Obviously we all should believe that anyone who hasn´t studied at an English language university can only be a fool...
No, just people who say things like that and or think the German system is anywhere near the 21st century.
11:15 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
My BA degree was 4 years. Not all BAs are 3 years long.
Aren't most BA's 4 years? Theres a problem in the states with people stretching them out to 5 these days.
11:15 June 16, 2009 by swimmer
If the immigrants are feeling that put out by their new life in Germany then by all means RETURN to your native country,culture,religion, and educatio…
Why should we? For a start, a lot of us aren't here through a love of Germany. We followed relationships / jobs etc. It's a nice enough country but it could be anywhere and it sure ain't utopia. Furthermore, we're all residents and most of us contribute to society. We have every right to state our opinions. That includes complaining!

I also hear this "Germany has the best Universities, so much better than US ones" line. Usually from Germans that thinks of themselves as an academic / philosopher / thinker (ie. that assertion helps to define their status) but don't bother / aren't able to work for a living. Maybe it was true 60 years ago, I don't know, but it's simply out of date now.
11:19 June 16, 2009 by parnell
Quality over quantity! Here is the top 20 universities in the world. I don't see Germany in there. However, if you were to ask around, I will bet …
Except if you look at the criteria for that ranking it relates to publications - no measure of the general quality of graduates is used.

I only hold a BEng from an Irish University - frankly I thought the tuition was - but the Yanks from the Ivy League colleges who were on exchange courses all thought it was far superior to what they had at home.
11:20 June 16, 2009 by SmittyBoy
Here is the top 20 universities in the world.

According to whom?

Top 20 lists are stupid (especially for universities), haven't you ever watched Letterman?

How do you rank a university anyway? Number of Nobel Laureates on the faculty? Number of patents held? Average pay for an undergraduates first job? How about costliest tuition? Most applications for under-grad positions? Any one of these criteria are incredibly narrow minded. Even taken together they miss some of the most important aspects of what an education is all about.

Rankings like this are garbage spewed out by USA Today and Forbes Magazine when they have nothing else to print.
11:20 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Aren't most BA's 4 years? Theres a problem in the states with people stretching them out to 5 these days.
Actually the opposite is now happening where most US high schools are now offering College level courses AP courses and a newly arriving freshmen can actually and is graduating in 3 years or staying on to double major.

I double majored way back when and it took me 5 1/2 years to graduate where I know some today who are graduating in 4 with a double major.
11:20 June 16, 2009 by UrbanAngel
Lilplatinum - No. Bachelors take 3 years unless you are studying languages in which case it's 4, or medicine or law, in which case it's.. longer. (5 or 7, can't remember!) Also BA =/= a Bachelor's Degree. BA = Bachelor of Arts. There is also BEng, BSc etc.
11:21 June 16, 2009 by eurovol
Aren't most BA's 4 years? Theres a problem in the states with people stretching them out to 5 these days.
They can be done in 3, average is 4, some actually require 5 due to various requirements. I stretched mine out to 13 so according to German standards, I WIN!
11:22 June 16, 2009 by Gen
Please remember to distinguish between the US and UK systems yeah? A BA in the US takes 4 years' worth of courses no matter the subject. If you double major then it can take longer, but that's because you're doing extra. The requirements take 4 years. If you want to do it faster, then you must take more than the usual load per semester or test out of requirements etc...
11:24 June 16, 2009 by UrbanAngel
Yes - I was obviously talking about the British system.
11:25 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Actually the opposite is now happening where most high schools are now offering College level courses AP courses and a newly arriving freshmen can act…
They certainly can do it in 3 years, I did, but many schools (at least when i graduated in '03) have problems with kids staying 5 years - to the tune that they were giving tuition breaks to graduating on time.
11:27 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Here is the top 20 universities in the world.According to whom?

Top 20 lists are stupid (especially for universities), haven't you ever watched Letterman?

How do you rank a …
Could be, but it is who hires these students from these universities. Maybe that is why Forbes is reporting it. Your degree is your ticket to where you will be hired and your success. There has been a study done on this too.
11:27 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Lilplatinum - No. Bachelors take 3 years unless you are studying languages in which case it's 4, or medicine or law, in which case it's.. longer. (5 o…
Must be different, in the states 4 is standard. Are law or medicine actual bachelors degrees in the UK or are they graduate programs? (As in, do you get a BA/BS and then go to law/med school like in the states?)
11:29 June 16, 2009 by bohemka
but many schools (at least when i graduated in '03) have problems with kids staying 5 years - to the tune that they were giving tuition breaks to grad…
GRADUATE NOW AND NEXT SEMESTER IS FREE!

Pretty catchy.
11:39 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
If Germany had such wonderful Universities why do the German's brag about sending their children to top US universities or wanting to send them?
They do?
11:43 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
In any case, very few of those "complaining outsiders" among German immigrants actually have a degree from Eurovol's Top 20 list... Definitely less than 0.1 % of them, I'd say.
11:50 June 16, 2009 by piyali
did I miss a point here in these comments somewhere

...the article says integration...
14:48 June 16, 2009 by kato
I stretched mine out to 13 so according to German standards, I WIN!
Nah, i know Germans who have been at university longer. Way longer.
They do?
Was wondering that too, because i can't remember any German bragging to me about how their kid - or they themselves - would study at a US university.

Now, the kid not going to the established school in Germany for their respective studies (e.g. Heidelberg for law and so on), that's gossip material in certain German circles.
14:59 June 16, 2009 by MrNosey
The German school system is NOT one of the world's best - it's one of the 1st world's worst. Google PISA.

Generalising I know but many Germans seem to be sceptical about foreigners (foreigners being anyone not coming from the same town/village) rather than hostile.
15:01 June 16, 2009 by getin-jiggy
Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World. There are only a handful of countries that could be called eq…
On what basis do you claim that? Be careful about claiming any kind of German superiority, bcos that claim came once and it was a farce
If the immigrants are feeling that put out by their new life in Germany then by all means RETURN to your native country,culture,religion, and educatio…
Immigrants will live here till they want to and will return when they want to. Just like a looooot of Germans are living abroad (inspite of the fact that they love it or not). Just like Germans are making a living by selling their goods to 3rd world countries, these 3rd world country immigrants are making a living by working here in Germany. Its a flat world

Coming back to the actual article, it does highlight a key point already made / discussed several times before that "immigrants miss the recognition of native German citizens". I have come across a lot of "Gastarbeiter" families (including Greeks, Italians and not just limited to Turkish) and their next generations who share this feeling very strongly that they have not received any due recognition for their contribution in rebuilding Germany.
15:04 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Nah, i know Germans who have been at university longer. Way longer.

Was wondering that too, because i can't remember any German bragging to…
I Guess the German Circles are different. I have had many Germans tell me how they sent their daughter, son, grandson, granddaughter to some university in the States. How they went on their vacation every year to visit them. I have had Germans tell me how they themselves have gotten their Masters and even Phd. from some online US university and are right now sending their child to a Stateside University. One told me how they are waiting to hear from Harvard law for the reply for admissions for law school. I know of graduates from gymnasiums here looking for people in the States to live with so they can go to a nearby college there.

Sorry, Tom_a and Kato,

It has happened numerous times to me where it is not so out there in thought, but it is practice. Oh and knew a Turkish family here in Germany whose son is in Oklahoma studying Engineering. I asked some why get the degree from the States and they said better value for their Euro and the kid can always come home and still study.
15:10 June 16, 2009 by Janx Spirit
...Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World. There are only a handful of countries that could be called…
You are shitting I presume? Even Germany itself has realised its shortcomings in the education arena: Programme for International Student Assessment
15:45 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
Well, according to PISA Germany is better than most. I wonder why anyone would study law in Harvard unless he only want to attach a Masters to his German qualifications.
15:58 June 16, 2009 by kato
Pisa is for 15 year olds, not university students. OECD is actually planning a similar examination for bachelor students, first trial to be held around 2011.
16:01 June 16, 2009 by bluedave
Dunno about feeling like an outsider in the Fatherland, I always feel like an outsider when I go back to the UK.
16:07 June 16, 2009 by Janx Spirit
Pisa is for 15 year olds, not university students. OECD is actually planning a similar examination for bachelor students, first trial to be held aroun…
Yes but jimmyjames said the educational system per se and not just university students:
QUOTE (jimmyjames @ Jun 16 2009, 1:37 am) *

...Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World.
And that was a load of old codswallop.
16:27 June 16, 2009 by Hazza
I've never had a problem with my education not being accepted here. In fact, I had a distinct advantage over Germans when I arrived, because I managed to have a (bachelor's) degree as well as 7 years of actual work experience when I first arrived aged 28. It gave me a huge advantage over other people my age who had their Diplom, but maybe 2 years of experience (and perhaps a "Praktikum").

There are other reasons to feel like an outsider here. I've mentioned it before, but the fact that they expect you to cut all formal ties to your country of origin (by renouncing your citizenship) before you can take on German citizenship - thus leaving most migrants disenfranchised, is a big thing. And whilst they keep this unreasonable demand in place, I don't think they can complain about people not integrating properly here. It has to be a 2-way street as far as I'm concerned...
16:29 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
I have had Germans tell me how they themselves have gotten their Masters and even Phd. from some online US university
Onine? Are you serious? Which university would that be then?
they are waiting to hear from Harvard law for the reply for admissions for law school
As somebody else already mentioned, a Harvard law degree is obviously useless in Germany, unless you get it on top of a German law degree and want to …[/quote]Presumably well to do graduates, if they can afford the fees.
Oh and knew a Turkish family here in Germany whose son is in Oklahoma studying Engineering. I asked some why get the degree from the States and they s…
Engineering? In Oklahoma? Because it's "better value for their Euro"? That's a bit... unusual.
16:50 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Onine? Are you serious? Which university would that be then?

As somebody else already mentioned, a Harvard law degree is obviously useless …
On Line, Yes, WOW do you believe it with all your great Universities here in Germany. Your citizens went abroad to get their degrees. Some did not even leave the confines of there homes to get their Phd. These statements are not from me, but Germans. Sorry to say Tom_a .

You really need to get out and about and see what is going on in your own country. I am not the one saying your Universities are not up to par it is your own citizens who go abroad or send their child abroad. I am just repeating what I hear and know and have witnessed. Again, what you are seeing as unusual has not been that unusual to my hearing and witnessing what your citizens are telling me. Again I am just repeating here what has been versed to me by Germans, sorry Tom_a
16:52 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
I wonder: Who hires all those Germans with wonderful ph.d. degrees from fancy American online universities?

I for one certainly wouldn't.
16:55 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
You really need to get out and about and see what is going on in your own country.
OK, I think I'll better go out and about instead of reading yet more nonsense on TT...
16:55 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Too bad for you .

Those are your opinions and what I was telling were opinions of your citizens, sorry Tom_a .
17:06 June 16, 2009 by Bipa
I have a sneaking suspicion that if you were to conduct a similar poll in just about any country, you'd find around half of the immigrants also feeling like outsiders and having trouble fitting in. Perhaps the numbers might be less in countries where there are strong ethnic communities providing a "home away from home", but depending on how the questions are worded, even these folks could end up being counted as part of the dissatisfied group.

What is more important imo is to take a closer look at the numbers of families who have lived all their lives here, or perhaps are even into their second or third generation, and still haven't chosen to get German citizenship. That's a serious problem, since these folks have obviously put down strong roots and are somehow already integrated into German society yet for whatever reason haven't made that final commitment. The new citizenship rules were supposed to encourage people to get German citizenship, yet it seems that the numbers are actually decreasing. Not good.
17:06 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
what I was telling were opinions of your citizens
Sure, there are 80 million people in this country, and some of them are bound to think and do the things you say.
17:20 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
Obviously there are people who believe that a degree from a foreign university is a useful addition to their German degree. That´s hardly a very unusual idea. Then there are people who for some reason decide to study completely at some foreign university.

Yet the examples given here of people studying at some US online university or in Oaklahoma "to save money" are pretty bizarre. These people probably simply weren´t accepted by German universities. There is a considerable number of German students who are studying medicine in Budapest, after all. They certainly don´t study there because Hungarian universities do have a particularly good reputation in that field.
17:29 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
It could be that they were not accepted by the German system. The one that now holds the Phd. and owns their own international business was as they put it too old for the system here. And the Turkish family who sent their child to O-k-l-a-h-o-m-a for engineering did not make it in the German system, maybe because he was Turkish? I do not know their exact situations other than what was told. I did not say as you quoted "to save money". There is a difference between better value for their money and saving money.

Again, This is what They Told me.
17:38 June 16, 2009 by mlovett
Aren't most BA's 4 years? Theres a problem in the states with people stretching them out to 5 these days.
How is that a "problem"? I spent 5 years at it... 2 degrees, and worked jobs the entire time, therefore had to take the minimum "full" coarse load.

eurovol's list of top Uni's is flawed. My alma mater (UC Berkeley) is not on there.
17:58 June 16, 2009 by Bell the cat
Quality over quantity! Here is the top 20 universities in the world. I don't see Germany in there.
while the list is okay it relies heavily on rankings for cited research from the institutions. This means that research-heavy institutions rank highly in the top 20. In Germany (as you well know) most research is conducted not within the Universities but in Institutes like Frauenhofer, Helmholz, Max Planck etc. So universities in Germany tend to be low ranked even if they are world class institutions. This is why the German government decided a couple of years ago to focus funds on elite institutions so that research could flourish at (for example) the LMU and TU in Munich and the University at Karlsruhe
18:06 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
How is that a "problem"? I spent 5 years at it... 2 degrees, and worked jobs the entire time, therefore had to take the minimum "full&q…
Its a problem for the schools, especially the state schools, as there is not enough space to meet the demand.
eurovol's list of top Uni's is flawed. My alma mater (UC Berkeley) is not on there.
And its ranked higher than Michigan in many polls, which was on his list. Not that overall rankings mean a damn thing, because obviously UT Austin is the best school in the world.

Anyway, I had no problem getting a job here with a BA and MA that had nothing to do with my job.
18:18 June 16, 2009 by Bell the cat
these lists can be cooked in several different ways but really it only switches the order of the top universities (most of which have very little to differentiate themselves from each other) rather than produce completely different lists. Cambridge, Harvard and Yale are usually in the top three though.
19:29 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
The one that now holds the Phd. and owns their own international business was as they put it too old for the system here.
If he owns his own business, he presumably wanted the title. The quality of the "education" didn't matter.

Frankly, an "online ph.d." more often than not means "buying" your degree.
19:56 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Yeah I'm not familiar with any accredited online PhD programs, and if they exist I can't imagine they hold any actual weight in the US let alone here. Its a way for some idiot to call himself Dr.
20:12 June 16, 2009 by Chocky
A German yesterday

(attached image)
20:42 June 16, 2009 by luvcheetos
Well, according to PISA Germany is better than most. I wonder why anyone would study law in Harvard unless he only want to attach a Masters to his Ger…
Law is actually one of those subjects for which there is a greater advantage to study in the country whre you intend to practice. This is especially true for Germany because law students actually learn black letter law in law school. In the US, the learning philisophy is different. Students do not sit and memorize the law during law school. They learn to think and reason like lawyers. The memorization of the law takes place in a one or two month bar review course after law school before the student takes the bar. The legal education systems are just different

That said, I know more than one German who got an LLM from Harvard, Yale, etc. to supplement a German legal education because it is more academic (more emphasis on legal reasoning rather than memorizaton of the law) than what is generally taught in German legal education. Most American lawyers get a Juris Doctor (JD), not an LLM (masters), although it is becoming popular to get an LLM as well.
20:45 June 16, 2009 by luvcheetos
As somebody else already mentioned, a Harvard law degree is obviously useless in Germany, unless you get it on top of a German law degree and want to …
Just as a German law degree is essentially useless in the US -- although some jurisdictions might be more flexible than the German would be with an American lawyer coming here.
20:49 June 16, 2009 by Kommentarlos
blah, blah, blah ... Helmholz ... blah, blah, blah
Fortunately I am not working in scientific consultancy so I don't need to be embaressed that I cannot spell Helmholtz. Tis only the largest scientific organisation in Gnomeland.

Edi: a second glance picks up Fraunhofer not Frauenhofer as well
20:55 June 16, 2009 by getin-jiggy
There are other reasons to feel like an outsider here. I've mentioned it before, but the fact that they expect you to cut all formal ties to your coun…
Thats a very good point and especially true for the Turkish migrant families who are not allowed to keep their Turkish nationality while taking over German one. So a lot of Turkish youth do not take German nationality and live with a sense of strong belonging to Turkey even though they live here permanently. Integration has to be a 2 way process. I think Germany has started to take right steps but there is still some way to go.
21:00 June 16, 2009 by Milton
Doesn't everyone who migrates to a new country feel like a foreigner? It's pretty hard to feel integrated when most migrants are split emotionally between the old and the new countries. Unless there are already strong cultural ties to the place they're moving to (e.g. Brits moving to Australia etc).

Maybe the real question is not " do you feel like an outsider" but "do you feel discriminated against?"
21:01 June 16, 2009 by Carm
Because Germans do not know what is bachelor degree, they only recognise diplom
Well, I have a Diplom, and in the rest of the world its still short a year of study to be a bachelor degree.

And in Germany its not recogn…[/quote]I know about 30 kids that are studying abroad (US, UK and Can) and not here for their Uni programs - and they are all german kids (some from International schools the rest gymasium), their parents are sending them off to school for 'better education and more options' (those are their words not mine).

I also know of a few very well off lawyers here in Germany that have studied in the US (Harvard) and are able to work here (well, then again they are German).

I get reminded every day that I am a foreigner, I get told it often by people (patients, sales clerks, people in my apartment building) "oh, there goes the Canadian girl! "
21:12 June 16, 2009 by eurovol
I wonder why anyone would study law in Harvard unless he only want to attach a Masters to his German qualifications.
Because the German qualifications are simply not enough in a world that is interchangeable (except in Germany where they still think they rule the wor…[/quote]Every single day I have a PhD trying to sell me some crap. Germany has a PhD factory that is not based on output, but a check list. What adds to the problem is that Profs are given points for producing PhDs and there is no consideration giving to what they actually produced. The German system is a mentor based system and that type of system became totally outdated in the early 80s.
These people probably simply weren´t accepted by German universities.
Oh yeah, cause all the world is clambering to come to Germany to study. Sorry, but that is an absurd statement!!!
eurovol's list of top Uni's is flawed. My alma mater (UC Berkeley) is not on there.
The top 50 rearrange a bit with different ways of looking at it and Berkeley is a top 50. However, the best German school is Heidelberg and it comes i…[/quote]That is not exactly correct. The institutions are academic and mostly tied to Universities that sponsor the students that work there. They get double hits on the ranking systems because the authors are both Institutional and Uni based. This is why Heidelberg, TUM and LMU are so highly ranked. The system is simply flawed and believe me I know this from personal experience. I tried to include into an "Elite School" the aspect of training for management, soft skills and transferable skills and the Uni Prof immediately said no cause it took to much of the student's time away from the bench. My proposal amounted to 15 credit hours per year and this is the crap response I got from a Uni Prof!
Fortunately I am not working in scientific consultancy so I don't need to be embaressed that I cannot spell Helmholtz. Tis only the largest scientific organisation in Gnomeland.
Well, I work there and "holz" is damn accurate!
21:22 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Yeah I'm not familiar with any accredited online PhD programs, and if they exist I can't imagine they hold any actual weight in the US let alone here.…
Michigan State. It seems the "a******" has a very lucrative career and is now well respected in their field. So much so that this person is now lecturing around the world and their business grew extremely fast in a very short time period. As far as schooling the person only kept going further in the degree because it kept the person busy and their mind off a terrible personal circumstance. It was "life saver" for this person to be able to go to school online. The Phd program I believe was partially completed in the States. Some times circumstances place you where you will never expect. For this person they have been extremely thankful for the opportunity to have been able to use the online universities in the States.
21:25 June 16, 2009 by Bell the cat
Fortunately I am not working in scientific consultancy so I don't need to be embaressed that I cannot spell Helmholtz. Tis only the largest scientific organisation in Gnomeland.

Edi: a second glance picks up Fraunhofer not Frauenhofer as well
spelling is obviously a consolation for the kind of imbeciles who think that it is the highest plane of human thought. . . ;-)
21:58 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
eurovol

a) to practice law in Germany you need to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after your university education, the second after a Referendardienst (somewhat comparable to a pupillage in England) where you practice the law at court, as a public prosecutor, in public administration and as a lawyer. That´s about the most comprehensive legal education you can get. Any masters degree is a nice add on if you want to work in an international law firm but completely irrelevant to being admitted to practice law

2. sure, every reasonable person would spend serious money to send his kid to study engineering in Oklahoma despite having very good engineering universities basically for free. At least I´m not aware that Oklahoma has a reputation like MIT
22:09 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
eurovol offloading a load of nonsense

a) to practice law in Germany you neeed to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after…
2. What do you know about any university in the US let alone any in Oklahoma since you were not able to even spell the State correctly in the first place. If you were Turkish/German and given the opportunity to study biomedical engineering in the US. Tell me would you turn it down? The kid is in Oklahoma, not Germany, right now studying for a degree which will be recognized. I am sure he will even get a job as soon as he graduates even in this recession. What more do you need to know and why? Are you unable to understand that is where he chose to go and is there not in Germany.
22:21 June 16, 2009 by luvcheetos
eurovol

a) to practice law in Germany you need to have passed two state exams. You pass the first exam after your university education, the…
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's comprehensive for Geman law. It's a very specific education.
22:21 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Michigan State.
You said an online university, not a real university that offered some sort of distance learning course. Bit of a difference.
22:22 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
Googled for Michigan State online pd.d.

Apparently, they have one such program specializing in "beam physics".
22:24 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
2. sure, every reasonable person would spend serious money to send his kid to study engineering in Oklahoma despite having very good engineering unive…
If I recall OU has one of the best Petroleum Engineering programs in the country, even if it is a horrible toothless redneck school that we thrash at football and is an embaressment to our conference . Thats why these overall school rankings are stupid, because a lot of schools have programs in a specific field ranked very well while being not that great overall.
22:24 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
Sure an American-educated lawyer can work in Germany. But he cannot practice German law. Rather obvious, isn't it?
22:27 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
keepingtime

Oh dear, yes, there was an superfluous "a" in Oklahoma. Big f***ing deal. Is it my fault that they can't even spell their own name properly over there? You are trying to peddle the idea here that tons of people here are so eager to send their kids to the US and all you can come up with are two anecdotal examples. It is quite normal that people want to spend some time at university abroad as part of their studies. I did so myself. That is quite different to claiming that university education in Germany is inferior to what you get abroad. Finally I´ve got some news for you with regard to Turks in Germany. They can study at German universities just like anyone else. There is no need to bang on about Turks vs. Germans.
22:30 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
This whole discussion is downright bizarre. No reasonable German disputes that lots of American universities offer top-notch education. That doesn't mean German universities are horrible. What it has to do with foreigners feeling like outsiders is beyond me.
22:34 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's comprehensive for Geman law. It's a very specific education.
I hate to tell you this but any legal education is very specific. Legal philosophy, history or methodology are rarely more than fringe topics.
22:39 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
M+A lawyers doing transaction advice can and do work in another country. But that's a very specific field.
22:44 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Googled for Michigan State online pd.d.

Apparently, they have one such program specializing in "beam physics".
Tom_a ,

W…[/quote]I am not the one saying anything other than there are citizens in Germany who have said to me they send their family members to universities in the States. It is you and tom_a , who wanted answers about how and why and where. I am not "banging about" Turkish people in Germany or about Germans. You wanted answers about the two whom I gave information about. All I was doing was giving answers. I also gave instances of Germans who asked for help in living quarters for their child while they attended university in the States where are all the questions about them?
22:48 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
Yes, there are some very specific fields like M+A, shipping law but also general contractual law. However, English law and London tends to be the law of choice if foreign law is being chosen for the contract. That doesn`t have much relevance for most immigrants in Germany, though.
22:48 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Tom_a ,

What? The University they attended was in Michigan State. What are you talking about? I never mentioned Michigan State University.…
When talking about a university and using two proper nouns like Michigan State, one could only assume you were talking about MSU. If you meant an online university in the state of Michigan, then I would be curious to hear what this accredited program is.
22:49 June 16, 2009 by tom_a
Keepingtime,

You wrote "Michigan State" with a capital "S".

That comminly refers to Michigan State University.

Doesn't it?
22:49 June 16, 2009 by bohemka
Dude, it's Washington State if you want to clarify between DC and the state (even though it's just Washington). Michigan does quite fine on its own. 10 out of 10 Americans would have been fooled by that delivery as well.
22:51 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Michigan does quite fine on its own.
Well, economically speaking, not so much.
22:51 June 16, 2009 by Bipa
I would guestimate that at least half of the immigrants coming to Germany don't have a university level education. Hmm... now I'm wondering which half are the most dissatisfied, those with or those without any degrees. At any rate, I'll bet it's the ones with higher education who do the most bitchin'.
22:56 June 16, 2009 by keepingtime
Dude, it's Washington State if you want to clarify between DC and the state (even though it's just Washington). Michigan does quite fine on its own. 1…
Well, economically speaking, not so much.
True.

Sorry not to clarify. State. Michigan the State.

(Oh, I said I was sorry.)
22:57 June 16, 2009 by bohemka
Well, economically speaking, not so much.
Good point.

Kind of on topic, I saw a news piece not so long ago that had tons of foreign investors buying up all the foreclosed houses in the Detroit area. They're just going to rent them out to the Americans that couldn't afford them in the first place, but there's something funny about foreign investors making land grabs in Detroit.
22:58 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
State is not a proper noun. The only other online PHD from an accredited Michigan school was CMU's Health Administration program, so I shall assume it is that.
23:00 June 16, 2009 by mlovett
I read that article too, bohemka, and we are thinking of buying investment property in that area. It's really dirt cheap! Maybe the "rich" Californians can buy it all up and keep the foreigners out.
23:02 June 16, 2009 by lilplatinum
Hopefully it will be the rich Californians flocking to my beautiful Austin and raising our property prices and destroying our once fair city. Send them to Michigan, I hear its nice.
23:05 June 16, 2009 by Oblomov
Perhaps some investors think they might buy toxic assets straight away without having them packaged into securities by some banks first.
23:05 June 16, 2009 by mlovett
My brother almost moved to Austin... not to worry, ain't gonna happen (my Dad was Texan, btw; I just returned from burying him there).

Due to the computer industry in Austin, you must accept folks from Silicon Valley, CA moving in. Don't worry, most are originally from India.
23:19 June 16, 2009 by bohemka
That's the really sad thing about Detroit right now. It's been a sad story for a while, but you actually had down-on-their-luck folks getting into housing with bait-and-switch financing, and now that they've been displaced, instead of communities being built it's back to short-term tenants and the transient problem they've had in those neighborhoods before. But now the rent checks don't even stay in the country. And I'd imagine this is a new breed of slumlord: The guys not even in the country that bought up a bunch of houses for $10k a piece and have no intention of upkeep or anything, really, except watching the rent checks come in, and evicting when they don't.

I was talking to a Michigonian (just made that up) friend and we both agreed it's pathetic that the University of Michigan and Michigan State haven't done more to generate sustainable business partnerships with the city of Detroit. It seems they get their fancy UM degree and split for Chicago the first chance they get.

Edit: But this is way off topic. I don't feel welcome here because I can't even get the damn bank account I want.
23:49 June 16, 2009 by Bipa
I can see many people getting turned off their very first day after moving into their German place. Back home, those of us who'd lived in the neighbourhood for a while would approach the newcomers, say hello, and offer our help with settling in. I can't recall ever getting brushed off. Might not have always ended up being best friends, but it started things off nicely and helped keep things friendly in the area.

Here in Germany, well... we moved into this house in Aug 2007 and I still haven't met some of my nearer neighbours. I wasn't going to go around ringing doorbells and introducing myself, and only one came over to say hello. The rest I've been meeting slowly over time, usually because after seeing the same face out on the street time after time, I've approached them myself. And I'm living in quite a small country community rather than the more anonymous big city where I'd expect a bit less neighbourly friendliness.

If our experience is typical, then it's no wonder that some folks have a real hard time fitting in. And I truly miss doing the "welcome wagon" thing, since it was always fun and interesting to meet the new neighbours. But instead of hearing stories of friendly neighbours, I seem to only hear about wars and battles and lawsuits and nosy neighbours. Quite a difference, and definitely took some getting used to.
23:58 June 16, 2009 by mlovett
Yes Bipa, I had the same experience as you, both in DE and with my U.S. neighbors (the latter being far more friendly). We did, however, make friends with some neighbors just months before leaving. They are Bavarian near Hamburg, so maybe they too felt like outsiders? They invited us for some some lovely meals (as we were packing to leave), and I donated a bunch of kid stuff to them. They also bought just about everything in our house, and our car, which made things easier for me (they got a GOOD discount).

They continue to email us, and will visit us in CA when we are settled!
00:00 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
Well, I guess this is very much an American thing. I don't believe you could expect this sort of welcome in other European countries either.
00:02 June 17, 2009 by mlovett
Wrong. Our Spanish neighbors brought out the welcome wagons, as well.
00:04 June 17, 2009 by lilplatinum
Actually both of my German neighbors have been quite friendly with me and I had beers with both of them within the first week of moving in, but they both went to school in the US for at least some time so I guess they were corrupted by the insidious disease of casual friendship.
01:05 June 17, 2009 by Bipa
Well, I guess this is very much an American thing. I don't believe you could expect this sort of welcome in other European countries either.
Doesn't have to be exactly the same sort of welcome like in the US or Canada. But there's a certain level of neighbourliness which makes a community just that much warmer and better. For example, we moved into our place in German-speaking Switzerland late in the Spring. Shortly afterwards, in the early summer, a neighbour at the far end of the street came over to introduce himself and invite us over for a BBQ. He was also inviting quite a few folks in the area and thought we'd enjoy meeting a few of them. That was quite a nice gesture and was very much appreciated. He did the introductions and we all ended up using the "du" form of grammar by the end of the evening. Even though my German was still extremely basic, everyone spent a bit of time trying to chat with me and we ended up having lots of laughs at my mistakes with German and their mistakes with English. But for the rest of my stay in Switzerland, I felt like I was a part of the community. Folks would come up to me and initiate conversations, ask me about how my German classes were going, offer me tips on local places worth sightseeing, or just plain say hello and a few friendly words in passing.

After almost two years here, I'm just starting to settle in and I still don't truly feel like a part of this community. I'd likely also end up being listed as one of those still feeling like an outsider, even though I'm quite comfortably integrated and don't have any major difficulties with life in general. The feeling I have isn't one of anger or bitterness. Instead, I feel a bit like there's a tight knit high school clique that I yearn to become a part of, but nobody is willing to bring me in and teach me the secret handshake.
06:38 June 17, 2009 by LeonG
When I was in Canada, I never got welcomed by neighbours. While I lived in apartments, I once had a visit from one of them about a noisy neighbour of ours and another time another about the heat not working. When I lived in a house, I never knew my neighbours on either side until an older couple moved in one side and started talking to me.

In Germany, I don't really have any neighbours except my landlady and she's plenty nice but my friends who live close to me had their neighbours from both sides show up at the guys bday party. I am not sure if they invited them.
07:52 June 17, 2009 by keepingtime
When we moved to our 2nd house here we were welcomed by our neighbors. 2 of whom had brought baked goods and came to our house and offered any type of help. Most of our neighbors in that town were very friendly and helpful with all of us. I only had one person who said anything bad to me about being an auslander. Even the "mean lady" on the street was not so mean face to face. We made some very nice relationships and the town was rather helpful all the time. We again moved and here we found the same friendlieness where our neighbors came over when we moved in and offered their assistance and brought baked goods. One gave us a tour of the town and showed us all the facilities. We have in turn tried to help out our neighbors when we moved in. We have noticed there are a lot who are not at home when the packages arrive and offered to be the delivery point for mail and packages. We have had good neighbors at most of our houses here and not experienced any cold shoulder. It does seem it can take a while for some to warm up, but most do.

When living in the States it seems the neighbors come in like a flood to welcome you and then you do not see them again unless you make the effort to go outside. People there are in their cars then the garage then house. Here at least everyone is outside and walks by and says good morning or hello and stops and talks a little even if they are in a hurry.
08:47 June 17, 2009 by Kuzzer
Apologies if this is going over old ground, but I've only skimmed each page of this thread - and most of the discussion seems to be around university degree parity, so here's my take on the "being an outsider" thing, without reference to qualifications.

The feeling of "outsiderness" starts right from the off when you move to Germany due to the many forms of protectionism and "Ordnung" that Germany puts in your path. For example:

Banking and Money

Maestro debit cards are a European standard, but most places in Germany don't accept 'em. Credit cards? Forget it. So I'll just open another account with my UK/US/Whatever bank at one of their German branches - simple! Err, uh-uh - because they don't have any branches in Germany due to German banking laws. Fail. Result: you PDQ have to go through all the hoops of opening an account at a German bank in order for your life to operate at even a basic level of normality; you feel you're being forced, not doing it at your pace.

Outsiderness Value *****

Getting your residence permit / tax card / etc.

Multiple threads already exist on this one, so no need to labour the point. Some Auslanderburoen work like clockwork, and some don't - but the mere level of paperwork you have to complete is staggering, as is the to-ing and fro-ing. Doesn't exactly make you feel welcome in the Bundesrepublik.

Outsiderness Value ****

Ordnung in general

Salting the street / steps outside your house in the winter, observing the Quiet Time, not being able to wash your car at home, chimney sweeps and their para-military access rights, recycling procedures - all these add to a new arrival's "WTF? factor". Some of them are of course sensible public safety and municipal management measures, but it's the extent of them that merits an:

Outsiderness Value of *****

The staring thing...

Quite. Once you've been in Germany a while, you realise it's normal over here - but for new arrivals...

Outsiderness value ****

Spargel and Strawberries*

I'm all for seasonal and locally-sourced produce, but let's face it - the strawberry and spargel thing goes just a little too far.

Outsiderness value *****

I'm sure there's lots of other things we could list here that really add to the culture shock when you first arrive in Germany, but my point is that first impressions last, and no matter how friendly and helpful your neighbours and the local community turn out to be (and in our case, both have been wonderful), most people's first steps in Germany are hobbled by seemingly unlimited obstacles. And that sticks in the psyche.

K

*surely I'm allowed one frivolous listing...?
09:06 June 17, 2009 by Expaticus
Here in Germany, well... we moved into this house in Aug 2007 and I still haven't met some of my nearer neighbours. I wasn't going to go around ringin…
Going on eight years here, and only one neighbor has ever once said hello, and that's because they have a house back in the US and wondered if we could carry back some mail with us on our next trip back to save them overseas postage. Cheapskates R Us.

[post="1017595">I have broadcast their various antics on this site ad nauseum[/post]. I've determined that I must be part of some massive Candid Camera/Truman Show experiment, because these people can't be for real.

It's a bit like the first rule of motorcycle safety: Always assume you're invisible to them, or the one time you're not paying attention they'll do you in.
09:06 June 17, 2009 by Fastbucks
I'm 66 years old and for the first time anywhere in my life I was abused by some dork of an immigration officer at Munich airport on return from London. (I somehow managed to stop him making a complete fool of himself). Outsider? You bet, and staying that way thanks.
15:06 June 17, 2009 by nina_glyndwr
I grew up in north Wales and felt just as much an outsider in the UK as over here.

I have a German mother and I know Berlin quite well.

I am back in D'dorf and this area for the fifth time - this stay has been nearly 9 years long.

I have a degree in German; I translate from German.

Mum cooked goulash and baked STreuselkuchen as well as making roast beef and Yorkshire pudding with apple pie to follow.

And after all this time, after spending more of my adult life in Germany than in the UK, I still go round thinking "God, look at this Jugenstil architecture. Wow, I'm living in Germany! Wow, look at the bread shops!" Etc.

When I go back to Wales for the first time in absolutely years, I shall probably be doing the same thing in reverse: "God, look at the outside water pipes. What horribly draughty windows. Oh, God, where's the decent bread." Etc.
15:06 June 17, 2009 by Lustitia
Ahem?did I miss something in the article?... thought it was about integration of immigrants!? )

Fremdenhaß und Fremdenangst although common to many cultures across the globe, has always been stronger and deep-rooted amongst Germans. Well, can?t really blame them, while our neighbours were busy colonizing, plundering and exterminating or enslaving indigenous people across the world - possibly killing more innocent people globally than the horrendous German Holocaust ? the German tribes were busy fighting themselves or being peasants. They really didn?t get a chance to grow, see, learn about the world beyond their stagnant pond and become true global citizens. The war defeat may have also subconsciously added to Fremdenhaß und Fremdenangst.

But that was then; modern post-war Germany should have no excuses or tolerance towards such behavior, especially given our past. For F*$#@?s sake, we had thousands of Gastarbeiter who helped us rebuild this country and become the global power we are today, but let?s not forget with power comes responsibility and a greater need for humility. Did we ever turn around, acknowledge and thank them, if not, then how different are we from the Nazi?s or the ruthless colonial powers or the pimp on the street who feeds off others toil? The integration programme fails miserably because it?s more of a one-way forced assimilation programme, wherein we force the immigrant communities to become Germans understand and do things the German way, however, we do not do much about teaching ourselves, the receiving community, about accepting and respecting immigrants. Correct me if I am wrong, one cant plant a sapling into alien soil if the soil doesn?t support its growth.

We all look up to the USA and worship Obama but we tend to overlook the fact that the US is in fact made up of immigrants from all over the world and the world?s favorite leader is coloured and he hails from the immigrant community. We have long pointed a finger at the US on racism and now the ball is in our court and the question we need to answer is where Germany?s Obama is!?
15:10 June 17, 2009 by HEM
I'm all for seasonal and locally-sourced produce, but let's face it - the strawberry and spargel thing goes just a little too far.
Look - its not mandatory to eat them off the same plate...
15:15 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
And there I was thinking that the people who came here to work received wages and retirement rights like anyone else. Cem Özdemir is head of Die Grünen, but obviously it is impossible for the kids of Turkish immigrants to achieve anything.
15:20 June 17, 2009 by Chrisimo
We all look up to the USA and worship Obama but we tend to overlook the fact that the US is in fact made up of immigrants from all over the world and …
How about we elect a leader based on competence and not based on skin color?

Not that I think that Merkel is the best leader we could have, but I find your suggestion a bit unproductive.
15:29 June 17, 2009 by don_riina
How about we elect a leader based on competence and not based on skin color?
I think we should elect a leader based on nothing more than his ability to muster the support of the masses, merely by going on about "hope and change" over and over and over and over and over and over and over..

Amazing that there is loads of stuff on this thread about how ace US universities are, but the super-intellectual, very well educated alumni that they churn out can still get all excited just because some guy kept saying "hope and change" over and over and over and over and over and over and over..
15:34 June 17, 2009 by keepingtime
@ Expaticus, Its good to know you have a place to vent. I am not so sure I could put up with what you have dealt with. It is not a parallel world as some have suggested. I have had some head banging moments and some that have been sublime, but to deal with it daily from neighbors could cause me to think about it differently here. You must have a wonderful wife.
15:36 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
Although the phrase "Migrationshintergrund" would be probably used in Germany to describe someone like Obama, within a US context, it's frankly silly, and even more so when you note that Obama was raised by his mother and his maternal grandparents, all of whom were US citizens from birth. That his father was Kenyan rather than American is really insignificant.

don_riina- excellent comments in your last post.
15:39 June 17, 2009 by keepingtime
I think we should elect a leader based on nothing more than his ability to muster the support of the masses, merely by going on about "hope and c…
I agree. I do not understand this either it boggles the mind. I do not vote by party or colour either.
17:15 June 17, 2009 by Expaticus
@ Expaticus, Its good to know you have a place to vent. I am not so sure I could put up with what you have dealt with. It is not a parallel world as s…
I do.

And a place of sufficient size and secluded privacy that it can serve as a native-free oasis; UK satellite TV, pretty much everything ordered in online, lots to do outside on one's own acreage, etc. From the descriptions I read here, I wouldn't have made it here eight months, much less eight years, in closer quarters and/or any kind of rental. Since they choose to shun and discriminate against foreigners in the neighborhood apartheid-style, they get the double cold shoulder from us in return.

My German wife can handle interactions with service personnel, doorbell rings and incoming krautsquawk telephone calls, etc. But somehow at the shops my money's always good enough for them to take; funny, that ... guess they go in back and wash their hands after touching it and/or use a pair of tongs to take it to the bank. The kids (Mischlinge, or Amischweine, as the neighbors charmly refer to them) are now old enough and can pretty much pass as slightly swarthier versions of bona fide Germans and speak the lingo well enough that I can even venture into public areas on occasion as long as they're with me; they know how to dial up and deal with the local cops when we're called names or otherwise harrassed on the street. They take care of me a lot like the mother in What's Eating Gilbert Grape, and in return, I do my best to create an insulated, happy home environment like William Hurt did The Village.

So, outside of getting sniped at by the natives here on TT, I have most inevitably negative teutonic interactions pretty much whittled down to getting stared at for c. 45 minutes a day on the train, but that's why God created sunglasses, walkmen and broadsheet newspapers.
17:21 June 17, 2009 by keepingtime
Family is the best thing ever.
17:27 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
Anyone ever lived in Japan?
17:34 June 17, 2009 by eddymanly
#Bachelor degree is a new thing in Europe#

The UK is not part of europe?

#Germany has always had an educational system that is far superior than 90% of the World.#

If you think dividing student at young age (gymnasium, realschule, hauptschule) is good education system, then, what u said is right.

Based on PISA findings, German students were one of the bad scorers in terms of science and math.

#If the immigrants are feeling that put out by their new life in Germany then by all means RETURN to your native country,culture,religion, and educational system.#

No, they don't have to , you have to change, or else Return to your mother's vagina.
18:17 June 17, 2009 by Alan20012000
Immigrants feel like outsiders in Germany no matter where they are from, Germans feel like outsiders in every other countries as they are such ignorant, unfriendly people who think the whole world is looking at Deutschland, they only think in their own box!
18:19 June 17, 2009 by Krieg
Immigrants feel like outsiders in Germany no matter where they are from, Germans feel like outsiders in every other countries as they are such ignoran…
Are you sure you are talking about Germans? Maybe you meant "Americans".
20:01 June 17, 2009 by cinzia
Americans are NOT unfriendly!

How did a topic that started out to be about how foreigners feel in Germany get to be about American politics? Is there even any use in asking?
Fremdenhaß und Fremdenangst although common to many cultures across the globe, has always been stronger and deep-rooted amongst Germans. Well, can?…
You're referring to the Thirty Years' War, I presume.
20:13 June 17, 2009 by Chrisimo
Americans are NOT unfriendly! :angry:How did a topic that started out to be about how foreigners feel in Germany get to be about American politics…
It's bound to happen, I think. People start analyzing a specific trait of Germans (in this case the treatment of foreigners) and then the comparisons and additional rants about other countries begin. It doesn't always have to be the US but given the controversial nature of US foreign politics and the fact that the US is a highly successfull nation it's a logical target (for rants). That's my analysis anyway.
20:20 June 17, 2009 by cinzia
It was a rhetorical question, but thanks, Chrisimo.
20:21 June 17, 2009 by Krieg
Aren't "German immigrants" the Germans living in other countries?
20:24 June 17, 2009 by Chrisimo
It was a rhetorical question, but thanks, Chrisimo.
Ah, well, I should have picked up on that.
20:41 June 17, 2009 by simplyme
... and immigrants will continue to feel like outsiders if they all had to deal with a guy I met recently. A simple question was asked 'Can we register for employment with your agency, being recent graduates and all?' His reply?

- You can't speak the german language properly.

- Even if you speak passable german, you cannot be employed, because we will first search for a german citizen, then an EU citizen to take the job you were offered before we will think about considering you.

- The only way you can be employed in germany is if you are an IT professional... we can then overlook your 'inadequacies'.

- Why don't you go back to your country - I'm sure you are overqualified than the people there, so you can get a job there easily.

All these were said, without his getting basic background information about the people that asked the question. If this attitude is what the immigrants have to face... well then...
20:58 June 17, 2009 by Krieg
I wonder if a German goes to an agency in your country and speaks German he will be treated like a king.
21:23 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
That´s the third poster with no posting history who appears in this thread all of a sudden. Swarming season for trolls?
21:33 June 17, 2009 by Expaticus
The Gubernator is Austrian, not German.
Sorry, I keep having trouble telling them apart for some reason. AS was born in 1947.
Austria ceased to exist as a fully independent nation until late 1945. A Provisional Austrian Government was set up on 27 April 1945 and was legally r…
"My hair was pulled. I was hit with belts. So was the kid next door. It was just the way it was. Many of the children I've seen were broken by th…
21:48 June 17, 2009 by cinzia
Has the unenviable privilege of being at the helm of the state with the worst credit rating in the union and can never rise to the top job because he …
Hm. Not that California has anything at all to do with this thread, but I must point out that Schwarzenegger didn't just move into the Governor's mansion yesterday. Any Presidential ambitions he may have previously had would surely be pretty unrealistic, given his inability to govern effectively in his own state.
21:50 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
Has the unenviable privilege of being at the helm of the state with the worst credit rating in the union and can never rise to the top job because he …
I'd say he is far from entirely to blame for California's fiscal crisis, which is anyhow irrelevant to this discussion or the point made by Expaticus. Fact is, immigrants to the US have a greater chance at success than immigrants to Germany, which is neither to say that all immigrants to the former will succeed nor that all immigrants to the latter will not.
22:05 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
Any evidence to support that fact?
22:14 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
Try unemployment rates, for one.

There's no need to pretend that you have an anything but a uniformly negative view of the US, Oblomov, nor that you are at all open to any criticism whatsoever of your own country. That an ethnic Turks founded Oger Tours and an ethnic Turk who naturalized as a German became a Green Party leader doesn't mean that all is well for foreigners here.

This may be of interest:

http://migration.uni-konstanz.de/content/c...Loeffelholz.pdf

Let me also stress that the economic difficulties faced by foreigners in Germany as a group are not solely the fault of Germans. Since it is a complex, multifaceted topic it's hard to say who is more at fault, but let's not pretend that there is equal opportunity here.
22:23 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
In a comparison of eight European and North American countries, Britain and the United States have the lowest social mobility
A careful comparison reveals that the USA and Britain are at the bottom with the lowest social mobility. Norway has the greatest social mobility, foll…
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/ERD/pressAndInformat...ust_report.aspxThose folks at the LSE simply don't get that land of opportunity thing.
22:27 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
True to form, Oblomov has simply attempted to flip the script to a mere criticism of the US. The quotes he provides says nothing about immigrants per se, and social mobility in the entire society isn't the same thing as immigrant success or failure.

Anyway...

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutsc...eutsche;1060418

The article is from 2006, and states that 1 out of every 3 Turks was unemployed, and over half of Russian immigrants were as well. A significant number of those Turks, BTW, and quite likely a majority, were actually born and raised in Germany, so presumably the figure for those actually immigrating from Turkey was even worse than that one in three figure.
22:33 June 17, 2009 by simplyme
That´s the third poster with no posting history who appears in this thread all of a sudden. Swarming season for trolls?
Pray, tell me... is there some protocol I missed? Maybe, ask for your permission or something?
22:39 June 17, 2009 by Oblomov
Yes, we all know how illiterate Mexican immigrants quickly rise to the top of US companies. Perhaps Germany should slam the doors shut to spouses from Anatolia with a low educational background and voilá, success of immigrants in the job market rises massively.
22:45 June 17, 2009 by Conquistador
Yet again, Oblomov sees only the worst unless it's regarding Germany. If you immigrate illegally, you shouldn't be there in the first place, and of course you will be worse off relative to natives and legal immigrants than if you has immigrated legally. The US has a much worse problem with illegal immigration than Germany does, but once again those in either country illegally shouldn't be there. Fortunately, there are many skilled and highly educated immigrants coming to the US legally- perhaps it wouldn't be too much to ask for Oblomov to also focus on a more succesful group of immigrants to the US (such as those from India or South Korea)?

Speaking of CEOs, here's one Mexican immigrant to the US that became one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_Ruiz

I wouldn't assume that no immigrant from Turkey ever became the CEO of a similarly-sized German company other than one he/she founded, but if it has happened I am not aware of it.
23:01 June 17, 2009 by cinzia
In addition, I think it is fair to say that while I wouldn't expect an illiterate to rise to the top of a company in any country, poorly educated immigrants to the US must feel that they can be more successful in the US than elsewhere. Otherwise, why would they be here?

As a matter of fact, Mexico reports having to deal with an influx of returning citizens who have left the US due to limited opportunities in the poor economy.
23:02 June 17, 2009 by LeonG
The article is from 2006, and states that 1 out of every 3 Turks was unemployed, and over half of Russian immigrants were as well. A significant numbe…
I met some of them at my integration course. The ones who were being made to take it by arbeitsamt and said that after the course was done, they would go back to their 1? jobs. One of the Russians told me that he was fully aware that he could get a worker job but he didn't want to because it would make him tired. So maybe the future of doing a worker job isn't all that bright but it's slightly more likely to manage to rise from a worker job than from benefits and 1? job. Not to mention that it looks a heck of a lot better on your CV.
02:47 June 18, 2009 by Oblomov
Fortunately, there are many skilled and highly educated immigrants coming to the US legally- perhaps it wouldn't be too much to ask for Oblomov to als…
Some "skilled and highly educated" immigrants to the US are doing better in the US job market than some rather less highly educated immigrants from Anatolia are doing in the German job market. Now there is a surprise..
09:36 June 18, 2009 by tom_a
I wouldn't assume that no immigrant from Turkey ever became the CEO of a similarly-sized German company other than one he/she founded, but if it has h…
I agree that few Turks have a successful top management career in corporate Germany. Reasons can be discussed, but the fact as such seems to be true.

However, just to be finicky, your anecdotal examples don't prove much:

1. One Mexican-born CEO can be a simple coincidence. If you can name 5 among major US corporates, that'd be a different story.

2. The percentage of Mexican immigrants compared to US population is far higher than the percentage of Turkish immigrants compared to German population.
10:06 June 18, 2009 by keepingtime
Tom_a ,

If you are that interested in finding out about Mexican-Americans business leaders/professionals do a wikisearch.
10:15 June 18, 2009 by tom_a
It's Conqui's point, so he has to do the Wikisearch...
10:24 June 18, 2009 by Oblomov
About 25% of the members of the board of German DAX companies are foreign nationals. Most of those are Austrians and from the US, though. However, you certainly have a much better chance to get a top job as a foreign male than as a German woman.

The big exception is Barbara Kux, member of the board of Siemens, who is both a foreign national (Swiss) as well as a woman.
10:27 June 18, 2009 by keepingtime
About 25% of the members of the board of German DAX companies are foreign nationals. Most of those are Austrians and from the US, though. However, you…
And as you are quoting, These board members come from a German speaking nation or a US national who more than likely graduated from a US University.
10:27 June 18, 2009 by Conquistador
tom, a sample of one might indeed be a fluke, but I note that Oblomov has previously cited a token example of a Turkish success story, i.e., a sample of one, to "prove" whatever point he's trying to make. I merely posted the example of Ruiz as just that- an example. The proportion of Mexican immigrants to the US as a percentage of total immigration is almost certainly skewed significantly by a larger number of them coming illegally to the US than Turks coming illegally to Germany.

As a group, Mexican immigrants to the US are not the most successful immigrant group, but there are obviously many success stories from this group with achievements which are somewhat more modest than becoming the CEO of a large multinational. There are plenty of Turkish success stories in Germany as well, but the real issue is the overall success of the group. The relevant apples-to-apples comparison would be legal Mexican immigrants to the US v.s. legal Turkish immigrants to Germany while tamping out the effects of illegal immigration by members of the two groups to the relevant destination country. Perhaps we could also compare first generation Mexican-Americans with first generation "Germano-Turks".

EDIT: here is a link of interest as regards Mexican immigrants to the US: http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/47.pdf
17:07 June 18, 2009 by eddymanly
The Turkish success story in germany could be that, Turkish dominate the kebab market and flohmarkt in Germany
19:31 June 22, 2009 by barbett
- Even if you speak passable german, you cannot be employed, because we will first search for a german citizen, then an EU citizen to take the job you…
That's more or less the requirement for getting a H1 visa in the US, by the way: the company that's applying on your behalf has to prove first that they cannot hire a US citizen for the same position.
19:40 June 22, 2009 by MonksTown
I'd be less interested in one two immigrants that "make it" to be CEO of a large listed company but more interested in the proportions of the migrant population in the lowest paid jobs.

And for migrant women there is the double burden.
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