Germany tries to block Palestine UNESCO bid

Might vs right?

..the US responds by taking its toys and leaving the playground..

..Europe responds by squabbling..

but why. I wonder, are palestinians not as 'cultural' as anyone else?

The Arab Nations should respond by Nationalizing German interests along with Israeli and American. Hit them where it hurts. In their Pockets.

What interests?

Self determination is so 1948...

_{Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.}

"Might vs right?

..the US responds by taking its toys and leaving the playground..

..Europe responds by squabbling..

but why. I wonder, are palestinians not as 'cultural' as anyone else? "

And the Palestinians respond by firing more rockets into Israel. Now THAT's what I call culture.

Of course, Germany will try to keep the Palestinians from getting a viable state. It would limit the growth of Israel, and maybe some Israelis might prefer to settle in Germany. Same reason Jewish immigration was severely limited several years ago at the behest of Likud. Some things don't change.

Some people have no clue what they are talking about. The only reason why Germany and the US are blocking it is because they want to force them to sign a peace treaty. Pay attention people.

@ StoutViking #5

Let me help your ignorance. An easy start would be to take a look to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Palestine.

Why would one try to find something cultural in a nation's fight for self-determination? It would be like trying to find something cultural in the American War of Independence.

Anyway, the reaction of the US and Germany is pathetic. Probably they would like to erase the word "Palestinian" from dictionaries.

As the former German chancellor Willy Brandt correctly observed "Germany may be an economic giant, but a political pygmy". If half the E.U members voted in favor and Britain abstained, one may note German political naivety while Germany herself is staunch E.U supporter.

A very good graphical illustration of the situation: http://iepurele.tumblr.com/post/12157019064/palestinian-leaders-will-ask-for-palestine-to-be

Some politicians got money from USA or from Israel. They do everything for money.

@ StoutViking

Most of the world is aware of the hatred and violence committed by both sides of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict.

However, stop paying dues to UNESCO and walking out on other political processes and still demanding to influence and govern the lives of other human beings…. how very European.

Where have we seen this type of cynical behaviors before, and not to forget the hijacking of the Hebrew religion by Zionism?

Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace and freedom, unfortunately the fear and militancy keep returning. I am disappointed in the U.S. lack of impartial mediation as well as the general lack of imagination. If the U.S. developed a more sophisticated policy and sensitive perspective, this conflict might have a reasonable solution which is mutually advantageous for Palestinians and Israelis. The vote passed for Palestinian entry to UNESCO; It must be somewhat embarrassing for the U.S. and German representatives who wanted to block this.

The U.S. policymakers looks like wealthy bullies. If they stop funding UNESCO others might need to step up. Or maybe UNESCO can make do with a lower budget.

The U.S. has kept it's focus on negotiations and talks which have been failing peace for decades; Abbas seems determined that peace can come through other avenues. Abbas and his team are doing a relatively efficient job making the U.S. policymakers seem very childish.

@ND1000 the U.S. actions have nothing to do with forcing them to sign a peace treaty.

@ StoutViking Im still puzzled but... What did this imaginary nation (originally Jordanians) contribue to science and culture to be in some sort of world heritage club?

Now... I am also puzzled? What did the imaginary nation originally of German, Austrian, Czech and Polish, etc., contribute to the original Hebrew religion and Languages?

Judaism is a religion and not a culture or race…regardless what the laws of the U.S. Congress declare. Zionism is an organization founded by a Hungarian born from German Jewish parents in Europe.

Hebrew language is not a European Language. Now Yiddish, is a German Jewish language. Hebrew is one of the Semitic languages of Afro-asiatic languages from North African, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Jordan, Syria and what are now, Semolina, Ethiopia, Sudan and Uganda regions in Africa.

Are you still puzzled by what the original Jordanians and Palestinians contributed to science and culture to be in the same sort of World Heritage Club?

Unless Land annexation, occupation, oppression, denial of human rights and worldwide assassinations of individuals without regard for international law add to multiculturalism and social enrichment? I too cannot see it really.

I'm not pro Isreali or Palestinian but why are not these same countries demanding sanctions on Isreal when they continue to build settlements? Eventually they will have to demolish what they have built and re-settle the Isreali population back inwards. Why does it appear that the west leans more on the Palestinians and gives Isreal more latitude? After all, if it were not for the anti-jewish feelings in Europe, they would not have had to create "their" own state. I think if I'm backed further and further into a corner, I'd be throwing more than rocks at Isreali tanks. How long will the west allow Isreal to keep building settlements before they stop them? How about letting the Isrealis move back into Europe? PS I'm a retired American (christian) soldier and am not biased in either direction.

@ChrisRea - Normally I don't do the battle of witts with the unarmed but I'll make an exception in your case. "Palestine" was a POLITICAL term to name the region, and never at any point there was even a MENTIONING of such a nation till 1967. See, the region was scatterly settled and most of the inhabitats came here only 3-5 generations ago (tho they play on the field as soon as grass starts growing, so it makes it 4-6 generations). After Israel was founded, all Arab nations around it declared war and demanded the Arabs who live inside its borders to leave or be killed as well. Those who left, somehow are still going around waving their keys after 60 years, whereas by international law no one's a refugee for more than 6 months or so. Howcome the nation/kingdom/state of which they were subjects (Jordan?) did not take them in, like the displaced from Eastern Germany were taken in? Must be something to do with the value of human life there...

Now please, find me a dictionary where the word "Palestinian" appears, meaning "Nation", not a "Political-Geographic region".

@mos101392-#16,

An U.S based organization of historians dedicated to reviewing recent world history at, www.ihr.org , is available to dig out historical facts,which may be consulted.

@ StoutViking #17

So you mean that Israeli people came to Palestine 3-6 generations ago? Maybe as a result of the Basle programme on the colonization of Palestine established by the first Zionist Congress? Otherwise the region was always populated, even if wars (and foreign administrations like Ottomans and Jordanians) took their toll. With the state of Palestine being recognised by 105 states, imaginary is rather your understanding of the world than the nation of Palestine. So coming back to the subject, there is a distinct Palestinian culture which is not Israeli or Jordanian or anything else. This is why they were recognised by UNESCO. Were you able to follow or is this text too long for you?

@ChrisRea - What exactly distinguishes the "Palestinian" culture from Arab culture? Is it the history they try to rewrite, or Jewish heritage they attempt to asset? Is it Mahmoud Abbas' claim that Israel is a plot of the Europeans to get rid of the Jews? Same man did a University term paper on how "The holocaust never happened, it's a Jewish plot to gain wealth and influence"? Perhaps Moustafa Barguti's claim that Jesus Christ was "A Palestinian Martyr"? Their denial of an existance of the temple of Jerusalem, which was built there by king Solomon, recorded and documented long before Arabian hordes had set a foot outside Arabia? Their denial of Israelite presence in the region 2,000 years ago, and their fabrication of a "Palestinian" nation existing for 7,000 years?

So, tell me. What is so distinct about this "culture"? Is there a Palestinian language? Do they have a distinct alphabet, which derived from a more primitive form? What is their currency? Where are their museums and ancient relics? What are their national holidays? But most of all, where in heck were they ever mentioned in DOCUMENTED HISTORY before 1967?

Now I understand this geopolitical hipsterism of seeking to bleed one's heart on some "less fortunate", but why not start with REAL nations. Now, the Basques for example are nation, while South Tirol IS occupied. Open up the history books, read SLOW and maybe you'll understand fast.

StoutViking, all your questions apply to the *cough* Ancient Nation of *cough, cough* Kosovo. However, having them recognized as an independent state went as fast as you wish, with so much US backing as you could dream of. Serbia didn't even get to protect the 200,000 Serbians who live in the north of the country, close to the Serbian border, and who would like to be reunited with Serbia. No, it's an inherent Good that Kosovo be fully independent without any single border concession.

Of course I support the Kosovans' right to their own nation, and at any rate, their right to a life without oppression from nationalistic Serbians, but I don't really get the double standards here... what is good for the Kosovans is not good for Palestineans it seems.

@ StoutViking

Palestinian culture - couple of examples, far from being exhaustive: Hisham Zreiq is a Palestinian film maker, poet and visual artist (religion - Christian); Edward Wadie Saïd was a cultural critic and author; Ghada Karmi is is a Palestinian doctor of medicine, author and academic; Ghassan Kanafani was a Palestinian writer. The world considers them Palestinians. They consider(ed) themselves Palestinians. Arabs are not a nation, they are a population spread across many states (mostly in North Africa and Middle East, including Palestine; except for Palestine, all these states are UN members). It might be hard for you to differentiate between these concepts, but it is important if you are to understand the situation.

Palestinian newspapers exist since 1911 (clearly stating that their readers are Palestinians). That is significant sooner than 1967. If you care for a bit of research, you'll find more documented history.

Your questions are laughable. You consider that there should be distinct alphabet in order to be a distinct culture/state? Well, I guess Americans are not so American then (they are also known to speak American, right?). With the continuous bombing and killing performed by Israel, do you think having museums is a high priority?

Yes, there are couple of territories and nations which are not organised as states. But Palestinians are already recognised as a state by most of the world and there is no reason why should they not be recognised as culture.

@ StoutViking

The term Palestine is used to describe a geographic region.

I respect the rights of people and the rights of groups of people to observe and celebrate their religious beliefs. Religions usual have fundamentals to a particular set practices and beliefs, for which there is no real or physical proof.

I have several questions for you,

what term is used to describe the State of Israel as it is today?

What term is used to describe the Jewish state building of settlements on Palestinian lands and the Jewish religion claims to Jerusalem?

What term is used to describe the denial of civil and human rights to the non-Jewish citizens and people living in the Palestine regions?

Where many generations of families from different religions and other cultures existed before the founding of Zionism and the Jewish religion?

Where do you or anyone else fined evidence, that Palestine or any region in the Middle East is the ancestral homeland of Zionism and the Jewish religion?

@ChrisRea - So, anything predating modern culture and science (film and medicine), doesn't appear to exist in this culture, meaning they haven't made any developments of their own. Is there Palestinian literature? I mean, other than hail songs to suicide bombers and predating the 20th century...

And what are these Palestinian newspapers? In 1911 it was common for Europeans to call the region "Palestine" as a political region, just as Rome did long before naming its provinces, except Rome made a clear distinguishment mentioning a region called "Judea" (it's not a Monty Python invention...).

Americans are a nation of immigrants formed by re-settlement, occupation and colonisation which was common to the day and age of its founding. The larger portion of the settlements were British, thus the language.

Bombing and killing? Well, don't Americans have a right ot bare arms to defend themselves? And is it possible no one would be bombed or killed if certain people wouldn't execute terror acts against civilians? More people die on the Mexian-US border in a month than in a year's bombing in Gaza.

@DonQuixote -

1. Depends who you ask. Some people call it ZOG.

2. Jerusalem was built by King David of the Israelites, around 1000BCE.

3. Palestinian lands who? Why is Jews building in Judea a crime all the sudden?

4. I know no such term and the only civil right denied from ALL nationals in Israel is civil marriage, which is a problem to whom is religionless.

5. Badly constructed sentence. But there were Cnaanites living here prior 1000BCE. Their burial sites indicate their presense.

6. Are you mad? Even the Koran states that God given the land between the sea and the Jordan river to the Jews.

@StoutViking #20

There really is no need to rewrite Jewish heritage. The Hebrew religion and languages did not originate from Judaism, just the opposite and Yiddish is a Jewish language.

Jewish heritage and religion is a still a work in progress, a blending and assimilation into the Hebrew religion.

The British government in 1917, lobbied for the establishment of a national homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. Any ancestral homeland claims Zionism and the Jewish people have to Palestine, Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip did not come from a Divine being or by way of divine prophecies from dead men and women.

The Divine beings responsible for the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine were the Zionist origination and the British government.

The British military and British politicians were the Divine prophets for the Zionist and Jewish people in Palestine during the 1920s.

The Jewish religion and the Israeli governments propaganda and prejudice has been exposed by their actions and attitudes in the Middle East.

The continuing Land annexation, the removal of non-Jewish citizens and people from their homes and lands the state of Israel find undesirable to their Zionist ideology and Jewish religion.

Its very clear, greed, prejudice and the abuse of powers are about nation building in the regions of Palestine.

Politics mixed with ancient folklore and magical religious prophesies, along with the fantasies of Zionism and the Jewish people self-interests, are at the root of much of the hatred, ignorance and senseless cycle of violence in Palestine and Israel today.

@ StoutViking #24

You are asking me about Palestinian literature? It seems you did not really read my posting to which you are replying. All Palestinians I mentioned contributed to the Palestinian literature.

Palestinian newspapers in 1911? For example Filastin, a twice-weekly newspaper published from 1911-1948. Research it a bit and enrich yourself.

I am glad that based on the comparison with the Americans, you understood that a nation does not need to have its own language and alphabet in order to be a nation.

However I fail to understand why do you say that Americans have the right to defend themselves. Of course they do, just like any other nation. But, in case you did not grasp it yet, it is not about them in this article/discussion. Or do you say that Israel equals US?

Terror acts against civilians? Yes, this is what Israeli and Palestinians do to each other. Does this mean that we should not recognize Israel as a culture/state?

Do you have numbers to support your comparison between Gaza and the US-Mexican border? The figures I found was 417 deaths for the whole 2009 for the US-Mexican border and 1,205 deaths for the war in Gaza. It seems that you are far from reality, as always.

@StoutViking #24

Am I mad, perhaps?

However, I am not misguided or misinformed about the misrepresentations and the deliberate misinterpretation of biblical tails, regarding the tribe of Judaea, Ruth, or the Israelite house of David.

And, whatever other direct linkages of decencies used by religious groups and originations to justify their existents, agendas for their religious self-interests.

In the Koran?

Using the Torah, Bible, Koran or the New Testaments as physical evidence is questionable…. and really, what difference will it make?

For believers and the faithful, Jewish people and the religion of Judaism and Zionism have a direct link to whatever they need to justify for their behavior in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world?

What is madness? Madness is the lack of respect, positive and rational thinking found in Western religions?

What else is madness, the absence of common sense thinking and reasoning?

After, tens of thousands of years of humans beings existing in Africa and the Middle East, and all the ancient religions with similar stories, the ancient Empires, wars, migrations, slavery and miscegenation of cultures in that region up to the 21st century…. and I am the one who is mad?

Madness is the belief today, there is only one group of people from the Hebrew religion that have direct links and rights to claim Biblical ancestral rights in Palestine?

Apart from a collection of religious books and stories, which some books and stories were originally written in different languages. And, the people who did write the stories were not eyewitness to any of the events or alive during times they wrote about.

There is no logical physical evidence to support such claims.

Are you ok and have you taken your medication today?

@ StoutViking

So, tell me. What is so distinct about this "culture"? Is there a Palestinian language? Do they have a distinct alphabet, which derived from a more primitive form? What is their currency? Where are their museums and ancient relics? What are their national holidays? But most of all, where in heck were they ever mentioned in DOCUMENTED HISTORY before 1967?

Answers,

1. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 from the foreign Office of the British government approving and giving the green light to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain for a homeland in Palestine.

2. The British Mandate for Palestine 24 July 1922.

My question?

Where does the Hebrew language and Hebrew alphabet originate? And, what is so distinct about the Jewish religion and Jewish language?

The truth and facts are out there…man, are you just misinformed or totally brainwashed?

You're all a bunch of hopeless pollyannas...

Unless there is a MAJOR shift in geopolitical dynamics, there will NEVER be a state of Palestine that in anyway compromises Israeli national security (discussion closed).

Accept it, deal with it, move on.

@ Frenemy

Hear that…drip, drip and drip? Thats Ignorance, prejudice and arrogance.

Geopolitics, thats all it has ever been for the sate of Israel from its establishment.

From the British to the Americans and European Union.

I would rather be blindly optimistic, than have contempt for other human beings and be in denial.

Unless the Israelis are prepared to murder millions of human beings, the propaganda, guns, nuclear power and money only buys time.

Oppressive governments and religions all have time to enjoy the gains made from corruption, stealing and committing crimes against humanity.

All things change. And, everything that has a beginning has an end.

I hope you can accept that, deal with it and move on?

@trevzns

I'm not the brainwashed one, I'm not the one getting my shortbread off the Pallywood hoetrain.

Yes, the Arabs living in the region got "Living Space" from the British mandate. They also been offered such after the declaration of the state of Israel, which they "politely" rejected to continue their struggle, joining hands with the surrounding entities to "throw the Jews in the sea". Once the war was lost, they came short on both ends and now it's somehow Israel's fault.

The Hebrew language and alphabet derive from ARAMIC, unlike some backdoor dropping of a Philologist here spewed earlier. Which makes sense, with Abraham, the founder of the Israelite nation and its 12 tribes, came from Aram-Naharaim - located in what is today Iraq. What is so distinct is it was the first Monoteistic religion. Jews all around the world been reading the same old testament in Hebrew and praying in Hebrew for the past 2,000 years.

And you really think Israel is out there brewing a genocide? Well, they're doing a terrible job at that. All the oppression, stealing and weapon hoarding I see happens around Israel, while Arabs inside Israel get affirmitive action in many fields, social security payments and no restrictions on building. But hey, at least the PLO is JUDENREIN.

Human rights, anyone?

@trevzns

The only "drip, drip and drip" I see is stupidity, naivety and inferiority(complex).

I'm not saying the geopolitical equation won't be altered in the future, I'm just saying that the status quo precludes a Palestinian "nation-state" the way the PLO would like to have.

As for Israel's willingness to kill millions: You'd better believe it (if their very existence is at stake). Think about it this way, they have no strategic nuclear weapons (aka military deterrent), but they have quite a few tactical nukes (in other words, they're intended to be used if need be).

I'm not making a moral judgment here, but word to the wise: the worst offenders (eg. human rights, war crimes) are often the most severely victimized (historically speaking). I would never bet against Israel going all nuke-happy if it had nothing left to lose...

So, my message to @Palestinians: accept your status as historical/geopolitical losers and make other living arrangements. No amount of violence on your part will achieve your mythical homeland (unfortunately, you have nothing to offer the powers that be).

And once again: Accept it, deal with it, move on.

I guess lots of people don't have enough sense of history to know that the idea of a Jewish state was also considered an unachievable pipe dream not so long ago, or that the Zionists used violence and terrorism to achieve their goals.

...(with the backing of major/super powers).

The Palestinians have p!ssed off the powers that be to the point that even covert support is highly unlikely.

Browsing through the above discussions the following questions crop up:

1) How could the British get ownership rights over Palestina and Arabian lands? If they conquered them though war, then the British as a foreign power, are only entitled to rule their subjective people with tacit agreements between the two under mutually acceptable pacts and international recognition. However they do not own any absolute ownership over the conquered lands and, transfer land and power to other people to grant a sovereign nationhood without the subjective acceptance and ratification under international law among the three concerned people.If so ,who conferred ownership rights to the British even when small land holdings require exhaustive procedures?

2) If Lord Balfour conceded approval to the British Zionist Federation for proceeding to establish a Zionist State in Palestina,and ratified the decision by a British mandate, did they elicit all legal agreements under international law?

3)The spirit of Zionist Movement was after all, originated in German speaking Europe and nationals. How could it cross the Atlantic over to the U.S and established as a Zionist Directive Organization while the European nations had powerful national federations like the German Jewish Federation (D.J.V) apart from the British, and with a higher numbered membership?

3) Why did not the British, as fellow European and allied ww1 victor nation over Germany, did not try to win the DJV to their national affiliate, using both diplomacy and power of influence in spite of the fact that strong anti Semitic winds were blowing in Germany in the 20's?

4) Considering historical events, what the U.S Americans strictly entangled to do with European powers, whether twisting Mustaches with internal wrangles leading to WW1 or communal bickering with other faiths?

5) Given the cherished nationhood of Israel due to determined Zionist efforts and successful influence over major powers, did it really confer peace to the Jewish people as a sovereign nation? At whose behest are they made to suffer perpetually and why they always feel a mortal threat to their basic existence having won as a cherished nation since Biblical times and fail to achieve a favorable Rapprochement with fellow Plestinians by grossly leaning upon the support of Gentile nations?

@ StoutViking So, tell me. What is so distinct about this "culture"? Is there a Palestinian language? Do they have a distinct alphabet, which derived from a more primitive form?

@ StoutViking

The Hebrew language and alphabet derive from ARAMIC, unlike some backdoor dropping of a Philologist here spewed earlier.

Where is the evidence found to support your statement, the Hebrew language and alphabet derive from ARAMIC?

From my understanding, the Aramic language joined the Hebrew language. Hebrew, which is a member of the Semitic languages from the Afroasiatic languages group?

Still after centuries of wars, migrations, miscegenation of cultures in that part of the world, Jewish people and Judaism are distinct from other religions and peoples in the Middle East?

@Frenemy The only "drip, drip and drip" I see is stupidity, naivety and inferiority(complex).

@Frenemy I'm not making a moral judgment here, but word to the wise: the worst offenders (eg. human rights, war crimes) are often the most severely victimized (historically speaking). I would never bet against Israel going all nuke-happy if it had nothing left to lose...

Of course there is nothing left to lose?

The special-nation of Israel, has special privileges to start a war and run behind the American and European Union flags.

And, privileges to receive aid from those countries taxpayers treasuries to help finance their mighty and powerful war industries.

The superior and smart people have the political influence, money and power to jump start a war.

Nothing left to lose..., why of course not.

War is good for business and for some special individuals financial portfolios.

Why not allow the stupid, naïve and inferior, gentile Christians, the Islamic, Arab, Asia, African and non-religious young men and women of the U.S. and Europe fight your religious geopolitical war, and kill your enemies….real or not.

Maybe there are other people in the world of 7 Billion, that have concerns and issues? Some day, one of their children will have to leave home to fight in that war? In lands, for peoples where his or her beliefs and culture are not welcome.

Now I get it… accept it, deal with it, move on. Let the smart and special people group, the eternal religious victims have their way. Have faith and trust for they are the chosen ones.

And I am the stupid, naïve one, with an inferiority complex?

@trevzns

Ok, I've read your post like 3 times now, and I can't for the life of me figure out just what the hell you're trying to say. Can you please try again, this time try to be clear, concise and cogent so that the rest of can follow. Thanks.

The German opposition to Palestinians membership of UNESCO is racist, anti-Arab anti-Semitic and a disgrace. Human civilization began in Palestine and the Fertile Crescent when Germans were running around in deer skins. The Palestinians have continuously inhabited Palestine for thousands of years but are subject to a Germany-supported, racist Zionist-perpetrated Palestinian Genocide. Germany having been involved in the genocide of Namas, Hereros, Armenians, Jews, Gypsies and Slavs is evidently today still into anti-Semitic genocide of Palestinians, Libyans, Iraqis, Somalis and Afghans.

The Zionists contributed to the WW2 Jewish Holocaust by collaborating with the anti-Jewish anti-Semitic Nazis before and during WW2; by opposing haven for Jewish refugees anywhere but Palestine; and by getting pro-Zionist Churchill to veto the Joel Brand plan to save 0.7 million Hungarian Jews (0.4 million died including all but a dozen of my relatives) (Google "Jews Against Racist Zionists" and thence Brand and Brenner) .

Today a "democratic fascist", pro-war, racist Germany backs the violent and genocidal anti-Arab anti-Semitism of the racist Zionists (RZs), Apartheid Israel and the Islamophobic War on Terror of Zionist-beholden US (9 million post-2001 war-related deaths), the Iraqi Genocide (4.6 million war-related deaths), the Afghan Genocide (5.6 million war-related deaths), the Somali Genocide (2.2 million war-related deaths) and the ongoing Palestinian Genocide.

Outstanding Jewish American scholar Professor Bertell Ollman has said of the Germany supported racists Zionists: "Yet, the facts on the ground, when not obscured by one or another Zionist rationalization, show that the Zionists are the worst anti-Semites in the world today, oppressing a Semitic people as no nation has done since the Nazis."

@Frenemy

Cogent

There is no need to compel. Deny and believe whatever you want. What is relevant, there are available sources of non-biased information and physical evidence to verify and support the statements I have made.

Clear

The source for some of the worlds major problems… racial and religious conflicts, wars over territories are directly or indirectly related to past and present European colonization activities and double standard world politics.

Historically speaking, recent arrivals out of Europes dark ages. Europeans are the products of their environments, harsh, cold, and lacking in natural recourses.

Concise

Inside and outside of Europe as a culture, religions and heritages, some Europeans are liars, a savage insecure group of pretenders.

Forgeries guilty of the willful and intentional misrepresentation, imitation and reproductions of other cultures religions, history, achievements and many other contributions made to human civilization as it is today.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and the Zionist all share the same traits, oppressive, inhumane and deviant behaviors. With their how to Handbooks for building a Civilization…. the Barbarians recorded history of Western civilization.

Cogent

There is no need to compel. Deny and believe whatever you want. What is relevant, there are available sources of non-biased information and physical evidence to verify and support the statements I have made.