February 8, 2012
Published: 5 Sep 10 12:13 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20100905-29619.html
Nearly a fifth of Germans would vote for a political protest party headed by Thilo Sarrazin, a poll revealed on Sunday, as mainstream politicians argue about how best to react to his statements on Muslims, immigration and Jews.
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Your comments about this article:
His comments on Muslims are based on observation. Muslims refuse to assimilate. Here in the USA, Europeans, Mexicans, Koreans, and other ethnic groups can hardly be differentiated because they all wear jeans, carry cellphones, and listen to the same terrible music. Muslim women and girls, on the other hand, wear sacks and/or scarves and in general act and appear no different than Saudi Arabian women; and they believe their right to wear a scarf and/or veil trumps all other considerations. Muslim taxi drivers refuse to carry passengers carrying dogs and/or alcohol because they see no separation between Islam and the world, i.e. they believe they have the right to enforce Islamic rules on infidels.
http://saucymugwump.blogspot.com/
The minority reactions to adverse comments are just inappropriate. A comment about Islam causes strident screams of racism. A remark about Israeli treatment of Palestinians causes cries of anti-Semitism. It is like pressing a button and getting reflex response that kills off further discussion. More people should protest that that is not acceptable. There must be criticism and useful dialogue. In all European countries it appears that minority groups like Moslems, Hindus and Jews wall themselves off, ignore the majority citizens and stubbornly refuse to make any cultural concessions. That should not be passively accepted in my view.
The line in the article about people of common religion being genetically related is misplaced. A large number of people would say that geography determines religion, and that religion is more to do with social bonding than individual spirituality. Someone said that religion is to do with herd-instinct. If one is raised in Delhi, one is a Hindu. In Stockholm, a Christian. In Baghdad, a Moslem. Religion is a part of culture, just as clothing, appearance, language are a part of culture. If one is raised in Ankara, one is not presented with a list of World religions from which to choose.
What a bunch of political losers....if any country deserved a tea party....it's Germany.
I am a christian and I live in a middle eastern country where islam is the dominant religion. I'm talking from a daily experience about this matter.
what I find really funny while watching europeans TV is how europeans see islam as simply "just another religion"
just like secularism worked to blur/erase the boundaries between different religions in europe they think it will do the same with muslims and they will simply integrate and adopte mdernity and western ethics and values -
they just don't know that this is impossible for muslim to do because secularism contradicts Islam in every aspect. They are two different paths that never meet. choosing one means rejecting the other. Hence, whoever chooses Islam has to reject secularism or the opposite.
secularism makes lawful what Allah has made unlawful.
secularism rejects Allah's rules with no exception and prefers regulations other than Allah's and His Messenger's.
I feel pitty for such the great civilisations of europe still "swallow" millions of muslim immigrants that will never never integrate because they see europeans as a bunch of inferiors, immoral and homosexuals.
hopefully you will wake up before too late....
cheers
Do the western democracies, founded upon freedom of religion along with many other freedoms, including speech, stay the course and acknowledge that some will abuse or use those freedoms in ways that other find unacceptable and offensive, or do they point to the objects of their disagreement and use them as justification for giving up those freedoms?
It is true that most Islamic countries have severe limitations on the presence and practice of other religions. Does that justify giving up that freedom in Germany, the United States, or anywhere else?
It is true that some immigrants don't seem to make much effort to fit in to the culture and mores where they have asked to live. What is the expectation for these folks? If one of us moved to the Middle East, how much would we be willing to change?
At some point, the decision to be made is to rise above that which we don't believe is fair, or simply fall down and do the same things that we abhor in others. Do we want to bring the world up, or simply give up our ideals?
There are no easy answers, and it is often tempting to take the easy way..."they do it so why can't we?" I hope the better answer is that by sharing freedoms we make it more likely others will observe our actions and emulate them. I have no illusion that Islam will suddenly become tolerant. I know that hating Islam will never help it change.
Germany, better than anyone, knows the dangers of allowing hatred and fear to take hold. By the same token, Germany learned about democracy, and embraced it, when the Lüftbrucke demonstrated what people would do to help others, even those who had recently been "enemies."
wa
it might be a good idea to limit the silent demographic invasion by diversifying the source - Just like any other business
to gap their demographic decline europe can tap the big reserve of south america or east asia
they are doing it in spain and italy and it seems to be working
a paragayan will integrate seemlessly in one generation but a turk or algerian will not even after 3 generations
I'm not analysing I'm talking FACTS
But I can see how you Germans produced Hitler though...lol.
1. there is no agreed measurement of intelligence. About the only thing that researchers in this area agree on is that the intelligence quotient (IQ) you quote is not a good measure
2. there are tremendous problems accurately and consistently measuring something that changes not only between groups doing the measuring and being measured but even on a individual basis depending on health, feeling of well-being and other personal factors. Generally, a pre-election poll gives an accuracy level of 3-6% on a simple question like "who would you vote for today"; the statistical error for intelligence testing is far greater and all your figures are statistically exactly the same within error bounds - they prove nothing
3. jews carry common genetic traits (not a jew gene) which is not surprising since they have been accidentally managing their gene pool for centuries by keeping marriage in-the-family, so to speak. So what? Tall people carry a common genetic trait also; so do many ethnic groups, many disease sufferers, people with green eyes and so on. This has nothing to do with intelligence
4. there is nothing in your argumentation specific to germany and a lot less than you think specific to muslims: my mother insists on wearing a headscarf for religious reasons - and she's christian; last week in the uk a christian townhall worker was fired for refusing to marry two people, part of her job, because of religion - they were homosexuals
Some muslims do cause trouble by insisting that they are so right they should make others do as they do, believe as they believe etc - I believe that sarrazin is doing exactly the same - it isn't a muslim trait
And If you were to ask most people in most Western countries their preference of government, most would say a conservative government, but one that is based upon "Real Conservatism."
In America, the republicans are in some ways even more liberal than the democratics. And so the solution for all Western nations is very simple: Fully commit to Real Conservatism, the type that is a reflection of the Universe / God. I'm absolutely sure, beyond even a shred of doubt, that this is the answer to all of humanity's troubles.
Thank you for one of the best and most reasonable comments here.
Sarazzin likes to talk let thim. Seems like we are always looking for ways to fight each other, to denegrate each other to, make some feel superior or inferior! I agree muslims should integrate better (And by that I don't mean adopting sex, drugs and rock n' roll liberalism we have now...). But I also believe it's up to germans to help their immigrants to integrate better (by braking their xenophobic, point of views of immigrants)...
Actually, there are pretty good measures of intelligence and Ashkenazi Jews consistently average about 2/3 of a standard deviation above other europeans. This is most likely due to selection for cognitively demanding roles.
G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending, Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659?-693 (2006).
http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
That study does not demonstrate anything. You can do similar studies for many other ethnic group. (and indeed, there are). Still the purpose you are using them is misleading - exactly like Sarrazin is doing - because genetic selection in the Middle Age does not mean that people with a common religion have common genes. This is very, very far reaching. In the same way I can say I am a German Arian because Longobards Barbarians have invaded Italy in the Middle Age and it is demonstrated that generic pools or people from Tuscany are mainly descendant from them. That is of course all bullshit, mentioned on purpose to make a point that is ultimately nothing more than racist.
The Jews of the Middle East share the same genetic pool of the Palestinian living in the same zone (what a surprise, LOL!!!). Then also Muslim have a higher IQ. At the end, the most dumb are the Christians? :-)
At the end, all of this does not answer the main topic: what is intelligence? IQ measurement is bullshit, exactly like the Body Mass Index measurement for physical fitness. It takes an arbitrary measurement and makes it the most important. Exactly like the BMI of a body builder will make him appear as overweight (because the BMI does not distinguish fat from muscles - you can see how scientific it is!!!) at the same time the IQ does not take in consideration much more than mathematics and linguistic abilities. From these measurement, Beethoven and Mozart would be idiots.
These are just faulty measurements used by people who are too intellectually lazy to actually discuss the tools they are using.
About the argument that Islam is against secularism - this is bullshit too. People should learn to distinguish between religion and social conventions and laws. So called "Islamic" countries imposes certain practices that we in the "west" perceive as archaic. But this has very little to do with religion. Religion is just the medium used to impose them.
Have a nice day
At the same time we have rights to express anger and hate for anything or anyone we don't like. However, is it helpful to keep the peace? Does it help us get along better? Does it further a just and respectful atmosphere? In the case of Sarrazin, I believe he turned the clock backwards from what his country and his party are seeking to achieve. Therefore, he doesn't deserve to remain in a position of high responsibility and leadership. Of course, he can say whatever he wants - he has that right. But in a way he yelled "fire" in a crowded theater. And I don't mind that he got thrown out of that theater in the least.
As a Spaniard I can confirm that it's true that in Spain the backgrounds of the inmigrants are diversified: we have muslims from the Middle East, North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa, but we also have people from Latin America, Eastern Europe, China and countries of the European Union.
The largest group is that of the Latin Americans, which surpasses that of the muslims. But we haven't accepted them in order to diversify our inmigrant population and avoid a muslim demographic threat, as you have suggested before. The inmigration into Spain from Latin America is the result firstly of Spanish ties with the region, which is composed by former Spanish colonies which share a common past, language and religion with us as a result; and secondly, because during the first half of the twentieth century Spain was a poor country with many people who left Spain.
What were the consequences of these facts? Latin American countries are poor, and Spain is a rich country (in spite of the current economic crisis). So form many people from Latin America emigration has become a necessity, and Spain is the best chance for them due to these reasons: we share the same language and religion; we have double nationality treaties with many of those countries; and many Spanish emigrants to former richer countries such as Argentina, as well as their descendants, want to return (every son or grandson of a Spaniard is granted automatic Spanish citizenship, regardless of his country of origin, such as Chile or Switzerland).
All of that (historical, linguistical, religious, legal and migration ties) is the main cause of Spanish absorption of Latin Americans, not the threat which derives from muslim inmigration.
All of this doesn't mean you're not right when you denounce muslim attitudes towards who and what they perceive as enemies of Islam.
This same policy has failed all over Europe and the backlash will be fierce. Those who are to blame are the same fools who point at Sarrazin crying "racism".
I fully agree with your post it is true that spain and italy are attracting latam immigrants due to historical/language reasons but you have 25 millions people of german origin in brazil only - they have german surnames and few still speak some kind of german dialect as the first language till this day...
irrespective of the above the US and canada are attracting thousands and millions of indians and chinese that have no ties whatsoever with the american way of life or language or religion....
a lot of people from all over the world are ready to move if they are given the chance
what the point of getting more muslims when all stats prove they will never integrate in a western society that they see as "immorale"
cheers
Maybe tracking the ones that tend to be extremist and to the ones that might be problematic. Another solution (which seem many Sar fans are kind of defending) is to prohibited them to "do" their religion partially or completely (Highly inconstitutional and I'm already seem mobs burning cars) and to force them to high bratwurst and to have pet dogs! Also the goverment could try to convert them... so in the end in short time there isn't any good solution to the problem... How can we define integration? Denial of one believes? Or just being able to live according to the law and certain cultural features of the host country?
"what the point of getting more muslims when all stats prove they will never integrate in a western society that they see as 'immorale'"...
I agree with that. I only wrote about the motive you suggested for Spanish absorption of non-muslim inmigrants.