Published: 30 Aug 10 08:58 CET | Print version
Updated: 30 Aug 10 17:47 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20100830-29483.html
Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin reiterated his criticism of Muslim immigrants on Monday, saying the vast majority were not fit to integrate into German society. Meanwhile the Social Democrats prepared to kick him out of the party.
AFP/DDP/DPA/The Local (news@thelocal.de)
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
President Barack Obama said Russian and US nuclear weapons should be slashed by up to a third in a keynote speech in front of Berlin's iconic Brandenburg Gate in which he called for a world of "peace and justice." READ () »
A German dentist who was so desperate for cash that he cut off his own finger for the insurance money has been found guilty of fraud and sentenced to a year in prison to be served on parole. The man said he was the victim of an attack. READ () »
The Local met a colourful crowd gathered to glimpse First Lady Michelle Obama in Berlin on Wednesday - from the Dutch man who came all the way to Germany to see her, to the commuter annoyed to find his way to work barred by police. READ () »
Germany has the third highest population of millionaires of any country in the world, and according to a study released on Wednesday, their piles of gold are growing faster than the world economy. READ () »
Find movies playing in English in Germany with The Local’s cinema guide. READ () »
With temperatures creeping up into the high thirties on Wednesday Deutsche Bahn said broken air conditioning systems could see train cancellations across the country. The network is still battling to get back on track after the floods. READ () »
It's been a tough few days for Social Democrat chancellor candidate Peer Steinbrück. At the weekend he made headlines for crying at a party event and just three months before the election, support for his party is at an all-year low. READ () »
Barack Obama follows JFK and Ronald Reagan in his Berlin speech on Wednesday. Can he match being a Berliner or calling for Gorbachev to tear down that wall? The Local List has six other famous US quotes about Germany. READ () »
More news from France at thelocal.fr
More news from Norway at thelocal.no
More news from Sweden at thelocal.se
More news from Switzerland at thelocal.ch
See all ads | Join the Marketplace
885 jobs available
664 new jobs this week
123 new jobs today
Dating
Looking for your own blonde bombshell? Or is the strong, silent type more your
style? Find a German sweetheart here.
Weather
"After clouds comes clear weather," say the Germans. But what about after that? Find out in The Local's weather
section.
Blog
German stuff that's distracting us today.
Noticeboard
Whether you want to buy, sell, hire, announce or promote something, here's the place to do it - completely free of
charge.
Discuss
Debate the news, ask for advice, make friends - or just let off steam.
Register now for:
> Free use of noticeboard
> Special discounts
> Weekly news roundup
> Unlimited use of discuss
Your comments about this article:
It really doesn't help to tell him to shut up, when what he's saying is true. If what he's saying is not true, then why don't they prove that to us?
Studies clearly show that immigrants from EU countries, the Americas, Asia, East Europe and India have virtually no problems to integrate. They speak the language, they have good education or do their best to achieve a good education, they have jobs, they mix with the local population. The only immigrant group where there is a large percentage with massive problems are Muslims, that is a sad but true fact, and all studies regarding this matter show it.
For example, Muslims are the only immigrant group that has people who don't speak German even after the 3rd generation!! No other immigrant group has these language problems.
But still, the official immigrant statistics from the government do NOT separate the different immigrant groups - they are all simply referred to as 'the immigrants', making us believe that all immigrant groups share the same problems.
Of course there are Muslims who do integrate well, and Sarrazin never ever denied that and even welcomes them, but they are not the problem, it's the large amount of Muslims that do not integrate well, and this is a topic that needs to be discussed and where we need to find a solution.
Our politics has denied this for ages now, and Sarrazin simply has the nuts to speak it out.
If his statement is false, then he is a liar, and not fit for office.
Any googling I¦#39;ve done points to a common middle-eastern gene rather than a specific Jewish gene. There¦#39;s something to ponder!
The man is merely naïve. He doesn¦#39;t understand the media¦#39;s need for sound-bites, as opposed to truth.
I am reminded of a speech given by a UK Cabinet Minister,Enoch Powell¦#39;s, speech in the sixties. It was an erudite speech lasting nearly an hour in the House of Commons, in which he warned of the dangers of immigrants (whatever their colour or creed) swamping the native communities, and the local services, unless some measures were taken by the Government of the day. He stressed that it wasn¦#39;t the immigrants¦#39; fault, merely that immigrants tend to gravitate to communities where others of their ilk are commonplace. What came out in the media? ¦quot;Rivers of Blood¦quot;. A classical quotation from Greek or Latin history, involving the river Tiber. His career was ruined.
"hello, on a DE kbd"
"hello,on a UK kdbd"
Without reading the full text of anything he has said, WFBB's comment could very well apply here (DISCLAIMER I do not in any way condone the sentiments uttered by Sarrazin which the press have leapt on to sell newspapoers.)
I would however contest that the man is not naive and is using the press to publicise his book.
If you want to talk science you have to open your eyes, and look deeper, then you will see that crime is highly correlated with poorer communities, which due to social condition and historical roots force a lot of black families into poverty.
Two more things:
1- There are a lot of Muslim who live in Germany that are doctors and Engineers PhD and Masters, actually not only in Germany but all over the western world.
2-There are alot of Germans who embraced Islam, so you can't really say that Muslims are an ethnic group with a certain gene that make them retarded or so as Mr Sarrazin earlier hinted.
This is pure racism.
Herr Sarrazin is bang on the money!
Large numbers of Turks were invited to Germany about four decades ago to provide much needed labour, acquire skills, and take those skills home. The guest worker programme was as much about international development aid as it was about addressing a critical labour shortage. Turkey helped the German economy by lending its labour, and Germany paid Turkey back by giving Turkish workers training and experience. Integration wasn't an issue at all, as the workers were expected to leave sooner or later, and many of them in fact did. Maintaining the workers' cultural connection to Turkey (rather than Germany) was a matter of official policy. Again, absolutely no provisions were made for integrating Turkish guest workers into German society in the long run, even after it was clear that they weren't all going home. Integration was an afterthought, and it is now a meaningless buzzword.
What changed attitudes toward Turkish immigrants was economic change. Increasing pressure on the economy and the disappearance of many jobs in areas like mining made many Turkish migrants completely redundant, and turned public opinion against them.
At some point the globalization of world peoples need to accept that vastly different political interests are at work... and will take advantage of those moral high ground folks that want everything equal.. It is unfortunate that the world is not this way in any time or type of reality... Your leader is making comments he believes in in a way that is acceptable... You do not have to agree with him and you should allow opinion without the useless classification of "racism" so wrongly attached to disagreement...
So it is here. To those asking for evidence that he is wrong, perhaps the question should be where is the evidence he is right?
Where are the statistics showing decreased intelligence among immigrants?
Where are all these problems caused by immigration and immigrants? Its not in the newspapers.
How many 3rd generation turks don't speak german?
Whatever happened to freedom of speech? I really hate the feeble European politicians that line up to criticise and destroy anyone who brings up these problems cultural masochism.
There are real problems between Islamic and western values and they need to be discussed.
The USA was founded on religious freedom. At least 7 of the original 13 colonies were founded by people fleeing religious prosecution in Europe. For this reason, the USA cannot abandon the Moslem populace. Modern German traditions come from the mid-1700s and enlightened tolerance of outside cultures.
All of that being said, there are some confrontational Moslem/Christian/Jewish fundamentalists that have radicalized some parts of their following. It isn't helping the resolution of differences, but is causing them to accumulate enough power to alter believers and non-believers. When they make it enough-about apprehending/eliminating them, then other options get closed off. OBL is in such a position. I don't think that there are 10 others in that situation yet, though.
again, provide a link to support your statements or STFU.
We all know that these are themes that are talked about in the real world and i am enjoying the squirming embarrassment of the politicians who would love to have ignored any debate in this country .Notice that the are all trying to kick him out of the party or cancelling his speaking engagements,,,anything to avoid a debate...weak willed ,bequem cowards the lot of them.
This man has some smarts and no Palin...
Seriously, I think many germans are retarded for applauding this troll and taking him serious. I mean it's not unusual for rightwing extremists to believe in esoteric bullshit, but in this case many supporters aren't even extremists. They don't see that what he's trying to say between the lines (muslims have a gene defect which makes them resistant to assimilation) is complete bullshit.
You don't see him talking bout the blackmail, but the turks and arabs, they're too weak to speak up for themselves, so yeah, lets blame it all on them, the jews of the 21 century. How so typical German of him. Guess he's not so straightup afterall.
Well i dont agree with anything that smacks of racism and if he said that about the Jews then he is obviously a crackpot ,,by the way to be a muslim is not to be part of a race but a cultural and religious thing ...but i am happy for Sarrazin to express his views,firstly because i believe in free speech and secondly because he is giving this comfortably.politically correct society a kick up the arse and forcing them into a debate that they would dearly love to ignore,
Muslims in US, Canada for example are much better integrated than anywhere in Europe. Huge part of the blame goes to the integration policies that Germany has implemented in the past decades.
He is making blatant generalizations, and forgetting that Muslims in Germany are not only Turks... there are European muslims like Bosnians and Albanians, who are secular just as any other Europeans. Majority of Muslims in Germany dont even practice Islam on daily basis... therefor he is wrong to say that ''Islam'' is the problem.
Anyway, this kind of talk is counterproductive and is alienating certain part of German citizens... in his book Sarrazin is speaking only to ethnic Germans, which proves that he considers Germans with immigrant background as outsiders, regardless if they are 4th, 5th... generation...
If he manages to bring thousands with him as he goes out the door, so be it.
The anti-moslem feelings are a symptom of something. Part of it could be fear/xenophobia of culture change in Germany. Part of it could be something darker. The EU's largest economy needs to talk this out. If this radicalizes the fringes, then the fringes tend to overplay their hand. The response to the overplay will set the course of Deutchland over the next years.
A new poll just came in America, that said 2/3 of Americans see themselves as being conservative. And most Germans would probably indentitfy as being conservative as well. So what has been the problem for all of these years?
Well, the truth is, the appropriate from of conservatism has never been offered, not in America or Germany. And as result, both nations, along with many other Western nations, have been plauged by avoidable problems.
A Moral-Conservative government would say, "Let's value the indentity, culture and way of life of all people. And that each man should have a country of his own. And that every law abiding person deserves peace, stability and prosperity."
Say what you will. But only a moral-conservative structure is capable of creating the brilliant world we have all imagined. Everything else will take humanity closer to extinction.
Lately I was working on a project in a small town near the city of Heilbronn. In this town on a top of a hill was a Russian ghetto, and all the inhabitants were there were absolutely oblivious to the rest of the city. And I am sure that even their 3rd generation is unable to speak good German. Similarly this is true for Turks and is irrespective of the religious beliefs they have.
If being Muslim is the only reason for not fitting into the Western society then how come 7 million of them settled peacefully in USA. I think amalgamation is a two way street.
Only 0,8 % of the US is Muslim. You are Bullshitting, the US doesn't have the intensity of the Problem as Europe does. Plus the US has allot of space, there are white only neighborhoods and black only neighborhoods. Oh and a Muslim killing his fellow comrades despite intensive military brainwashing is really a great example of good integration which Europe indeed cant show for.
There is no Yes or No answer you dummy. There are some muslims who integrate and others who dont. You cant make blatant generalizations.
And yes he is racist, when you discriminate against a whole culture/religion you are talking about specific group of people. When you hear the word muslim, do you think of an Arab, or a Swede? So again, yes, this generalizations are racist.
I'm not sure if this reporting is representative of German press, of German politics, or of German common discourse. It strikes me as meaningless ankle-chewing.
I am not a racist cause I do not discriminate against a people just for colour or race but I do keep away from certain sections of social behaviour. I just bought a flat in Munich and my budget not being the best I was often shown flats in areas where I would not want my kids to grow up at. I cannot claim that these people were of one race but unfortunately it is a clear fact that mostly they were more or less of Turkish origin.
And now we all shout racist, yes lets ask those of us with young daughters and see them openly claim that they would be happy if their duaghters would date a young Turkish muslim. When I confronted my friend with this question she quickly said that´s differeent cause it´s her duaghter. Oh I see, she has nothing against Turkish but her duaghter should keep away from them.
Are we racists? No, I have no grudge against the Turkish but I condem any foreigner who refuses to intergrate after so many years.
I am a foreigner, I have lived here for over 20 years and yet I have kept my nationality, I still drink my tea with milk and sugar but apart from that I am fully integrated into dialy German life, try my best to master the language, supported Germany in the World Cup (could not get myself to do this when they played England) and my kids were dressed with German flags and shouting their hearts out. I want my kids to grow up as normal citizens while still being proud of thier father´s origin.
Foriegners can integrate without losing their identity, many Turkish do not want to do this. Do not blame Germany for this.
I suppose he's lucky he may only be sacked. Germany has a bad history when it comes to dealing with people whose words they don't like. And I do make that analogy on purpose. It is what the wound-up public are suggesting... and what does that make them...? Truth be told, shutting up people because you don't like what they have to say is BEING fascist.. even if you call yourself a leftist. Be honest with yourself.
Truthfully, the media is playing up big soundbites of his book to whip up a frenzy. They aren't playing overly fair. They've focussed on the Jewish gene- but he actually said something along the lines of a jewish gene or a basque gene. Are the basques up in arms? No. But use the 'J' word in Germany and half the population will have their heads explode!
As for the issues in the book, I've lived in Germany for two years and I have had a lot of issues with muslim fellows who are completely unintegrated. I had one grab my breast on the street during the day and tell me to go for coffee with him. On the other hand, I dated a turkish muslim fellow from Turkey who outright said that the Turks in Germany aren't welcome in Turkey because they are such bumpkins... So you know.. I think there is a lot of truth in what I perceive Sarrazin to be saying.
But people who refuse to integrate into the standards of the culture they arrive in should be sent home. It is not the obligation of a Germany to accept the 'poor, huddled masses' of other countries when those people don't want to subscribe to German cultural norms. If you come here to live, you should do it because you WANT to live in a German culture or you completely accept German ways of life outside your home. If you don't, then What The Frack are you doing in Germany in the first place? Do what you want in your own home, but when you go outside, it's German time.
And frankly, I don't think that's being racist.
While Sarrazin clearly believes the first factor, his critics have, by default, assumed the second without cause. Islam has done a wonderful job of pursuading the rest of the world that (its) religion = culture = race. Wrong! Race is determined by genetics (scientific fact!), religion is based on belief, culture is based on local custom. Unless there is a very close relationship between the gene pool and the vast majority of the adherents to a particular religion (and Israelis could be considered a case in point), any association between race and religion is invalid. As for culture, the Islamic approach is like saying that it is a religious requirement for its (usually female) followers to wear a particular brand of shoes i.e. a ludicrous imposition on its followers and everyone who comes into contact with them.
Islam has no respect for the indiginous population of any area that is not Islamic: if any minority tried to impose their will on the general populace in a Muslim country in the same way that Muslims do in European countries, the members of the minority would be tried under Sharia law and executed. Remeber the English teacher who was imprisoned for daring to call a teddy bear "Mohammed"?
Sarrazin is doing Europe a service by bringing the debate into the mainstream. It is the politicians who are failing the majority of the population by cowering in face of specious accusations of "racism". For some reason, this seems to be a trump card in Europe: in reality, it should be regarded for what it is - the last gasp of someone who hasn't got a justifiable basis for their political opinion.
After all, if you told a psychiatrist that you believed in a non-corporial being who spoke to you every day and made you do and believe things that no rational person should do or believe, they would rightly lock you away as a danger to society. Therefore, how is fundamentalist religion different from psychiatric illness?
For those of you who actually read German, there have been several good refutations published in Die Zeit over the past week, in particular an interview with Sarrazin himself, where it becomes quite clear that his logic -- in making the claims he does -- is simply invalid. He is starting from certain statistical premises but the conclusions he wants to draw simply do not follow from these premises.
So, from my point of view, I think there has been quite enough refutation of conclusions which probably shouldn't be taken all that seriously in the first place. Expel this Vollidiot from the SPD already.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,704114,00.html
Please read carefully the following paragraph in the article
" Oft sind es Geschichten gut ausgebildeter, gut integrierter Deutsch-Türken. Die große Mehrheit der Auswanderer sind junge Akademiker, die Deutschland aus wirtschaftlichen Gründen den Rücken kehren. Etwa 40.000 Türken und türkischstämmige Deutsche gingen im vergangenen Jahr zurück in das Land ihrer Väter, das sind 10.000 mehr als umgekehrt in die Bundesrepublik kamen. Der Trend der Zuwanderung hat sich damit eindeutig gewendet.
".
Have fun !!!!!
Definately not....!!!
>> These were the Muslims Turks helping Germany out to stand where it is now.
If you can't mix up with the people, if you can't accept culture, society then there is no point to apply for German passport.
When you apply for citizenship, then be and behave like Germans. So Germany won't loose it's identity and Germans won't become strangers in their own land.
It should be applicable for every forgeingners.
Germans have fought back wel to life, business, research and sports after WW-II and have maintained their own great image.
I wish such image may last forever.
I appreciate study (research) of Sarrazin.
Germany is involved in an illegal, immoral and genocidal war in Afghanistan in which 311,000 under-5 year old infants die every year (UNICEF) and 440,000 Afghans die avoidably every year due to deprivation imposed by the US, NATO and Australian war makers.
In Occupied Afghanistan post-invasion non-violent avoidable deaths from deprivation total 3.5 million, post-invasion violent deaths may total 1 million (based on Iraq war comparisons), post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 2.4 million and refugees total 3-4 million (with a further 2.5 million Pashtun refugees generated in NW Pakistan) - an Afghan Holocaust and an Afghan Genocide according to Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention.
Germans deploring Sarrazin's words while ignoring the horrendous avoidable deaths associated with German and US Alliance war crimes in Occupied Afghanistan are guilty of hypocrisy, politically correct racism (PC racism) , holocaust denial, genocide denial and of complicity in war crimes.
Sure, Sarrazin should be dismissed from all public posts for his ignorant, false, offensive and dangerous comments. But Angela Merkel and all her US Alliance associates in the Afghan Genocide should be arraigned, tried and punished for complicity in horrendous war crimes.