Published: 26 Jul 10 16:09 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20100726-28751.html
The German government has denied that the 92,000 documents published Monday by the whistle-blower website Wikileaks reveal US frustration with the Bundeswehr’s lack of progress in Afghanistan.
AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)
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Your comments about this article:
He is either being disingeneous or he really was not made party to this information which would say a lot about Germany,s status vis a vie the USA and a lot about the German Intelligence Services.
Did you ever ask yourself, why it is that blown-up embassies, subway bomb attacks, or jets slammed into buildings are normally (with the UK as an explainable exception) US embassies, US subways, US buildings?
No, you didn't - you obviously did not yet ask yourself this question.
I'm by no means trying to excuse these horrible acts of terrorism! But there is a kind of "pattern", and when you have collected some experience at traveling to the US as a non-US citizen and went through immigrations a few times, including "Secondary Inspection", then you might understand what I mean by that...
And yes, whatzup, we sat on our behinds while the US protected us from the Russians - but don't think the US did that out of pure charity. And by the way, you are talking about 20 and more years ago - and we Germans all had already health insurance coverage at that time...
whatzup: Dear arrogant american. The world will not fight your wars. These wars are the result of the mess YOU made..i.e. carpet bombing half the world, supporting dictatorships and terrorists where it works for you, hypocrisy with human rights etc. The list is endless. Did you even look at your Military budget? Does that go into FEEDING people ?? nahh..that goes into killing people or at least keeping them from waking up.
Either stop being a bully to the world..or stop crying for help cuz we aint your slaves.
47 German soldiers have sadly lost their lives since conflict began..4,000 German troops behind the front line is laughable...
Funny how after a World War 2 the west germans were begging for US assistance...a the car industry as well as other industry was all helped put back on track....which is what they are trying to do in Afghanistan as well as try to settle War lord drugs disputes and terrorism...Big Industrial Germany with absolutly no clue or commitment in foreign affairs!
Germany needs to pull itself together and get out of the conflicts, it's gone on to define itself, since 1945, as a non-waring nation. That reputation is in jeopardy if the war goes on.
@mikecowler
Germans did not beg, it was simply seen as a necessity given the degree to which the U.S. govt. had helped to mess things up following WWI.
1) Westerwelle is an idiot.
2) I've lost friends in this war, too, and while that makes me very sad, they did die serving their country because they were ordered to this.
3) 'Non-waring nation' doesn't preclude Germany from being a nation that engages in strong foreign policy, which we have singularly failed to do. Nobody *wants* to go to war, but sometimes, people do get screwed on the international stage, and it takes sharp teeth, and a big stick, and a credible threat to get them to treat you fairly again.
4) The US is completely psychotic and overly reactionary about it's foreign policy. Let's not even compare them in our discussion of what Germany should do. Afghanistan was and is a just war; the enemy openly identified itself with the Taliban, and the Taliban were proud of 9/11. That is not even up for debate. Iraq, however, was sheer and utter stupidity. Thanks for making Iran a regional superpower, you dolts. Listen to the few, very few, smart people at the CIA next time, and stop listening to the warmongering defense complex morons that occupy 80% of the rest of those offices.
The point I am trying to make is, that when discussing these things, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - and NEVER compare yourself to the US, because they are all insane.
1) We are not all idiots thank you very much. However, our last presidential election doesn't go along way with trying to proving that point...
2) European Nations have ended up relying on the US to rescue them in the past and it is in all of our best interests to insure that people/ governments bent on fascism or dictatorial rule do not harm the freedom we share and enjoy.
3) The war on Terrorism is not a US war and YES, despite what you may wish to believe, Iraq is part of that war. Al Qaeda was practically destroyed in Iraq until the US media got involved; much like Viet Nam. Germany is one of the greatest allies the US has. Understand why the US was frustrated...maybe it was because of your former Chancellor was in bed with a dictator who's kids would shove people into large shredders for kicks. We all know Iraq had WMD's...ask the 100,000+ Kurds and Iranians Saddam gassed; if you could. The question that SHOULD be asked is, "Where did they all go, and where/ when will they turn up?"
4) The US is far from being a bully. What people fail to realize is what Islamic-fascism truly is. Germany out of any country should understand what these people are about and why they need to be stopped. The US staying neutral worked so well for Europe twice in the 1900's, didn't it? You would think that people/ Nations would have learned from our mistakes. Does Germany think they are immune from the Islamic assault? If so, you do not know the enemy we are all facing.
You must think what was in Afghanistan before the Americans went there? Both British, and Russians have left this country in a total mess...the latter being with secret arms support firstly by the Americans to the Taliban and now they are supported by the Iranians...There best export was officially drugs, with open Al Queda training camps, pepareing men women and children to come to the west and carry out their Jihad against us infadels...
I,m not American but thank god they are their now and so are the British in front line duty..Its these servicemen that are helping to make the world safer...The last 2 comments above me says it all...
While the German coallition Goverment sits in its Reichtag counting all the money its saved by only sending a few troops to Iraq, and some of its nationals pour scorn over America in the saftey of their German cities, one wonders why England should join the Euro and also why England quickly put to bed an idea made up in Brussels of a counter terrorist EU force, the reason is far better to share a bed with one government in the USA as opposed to EU countries that sit like osteriches and bury their heads in the sand when there is conflict outside their own country that could affect themselves in the end...
I rest my case..
Our wars Jibsy?? The terrorist jihad hates you at least as much as it does the US, ie. London, Madrid, Danish newspaper cartoon free speech issue etc. etc. etc. Without the US with its shoulder to the wheel these extremist islamist folks would be all over you in a new york minute. So stop your whining and thank God, any God you choose, that America (and Germany) are there to help keep the bad guys off your neck.
OMFG, the reason why you could afford health coverage here for so long was that the USA was footing most of the defense bill. Now that America's resources are being stretched and overburdened lets watch how quickly your health costs continue to rise. Blink your eyes twice and you'll find the famous German welfare state has all but completely disappeared. Once they realize what's happened your countrymen will appreciate the US presence as the golden era of the good old days.
When I say they didn't die for their country I mean that they bled for nothing, for no great ideals, for no good reason. Unless corporate greed is one of those ideals or reasons.
As for Afghanistan, we were always the aggressor there, the Taliban and Al Queda exist because of U.S. and Russian intervention in the region. We screwed up that part of the world from the get-go. Just wars are a fiction. No murder is just. And protection never means being the first to pull a gun on someone.
This war was not fought for justice, that may be the civilian reason, but it isn't the leaderships.
@Cowler
I agree with most of that, except I don't see how more interventionism is going to make the situation anymore stabile, the only thing that can be done is back-up to whatever democratic govt. is there now. This means no non-native missions.
@SDogood
Where did the gas come from? The U.S. and they knew what it was being used for.
@Whatzup
As always your history is out of whack, Germany's current healthcare scheme has remained essentially unchanged (aside from elaboration and extensive extension), since 1871. It has nothing to do with the U.S.
@whatzup: "Do you really think that if the US and Germany exit the middle east the terror attacks on western civilization will cease?" - And YOU, whatzup, did you really think at first place, that invading Afghanistan and Iraq with military forces would STOP or even REDUCE the terror attacks?
@mikecowler: "Its these servicemen that are helping to make the world safer..." - If it wasn't so sad, I would really laugh my ass off about that one.
@OMFG: "did you really think at first place, that invading Afghanistan and Iraq with military forces would STOP or even REDUCE the terror attacks?" Yes. It already has.
@whatzup
The invasion of Afghanistan hindered Al-Queda. No question about that. Unfortunately, Iraq had absolutely no relationship to Al-Queda, and is mostly composed of a completely different branch of Islam. So, those folks aren't your enemies in a global sense.
However; the invasion of Iraq did firmly put the Shi'ites in Iraq in the Iranian camp, and has significantly disgruntled Iraq Sunnis into being more aligned with the former. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, by invading Iraq, a nation which did not have an effective foreign intelligence operatus, any advanced armed forces to speak of, or weapons of mass destruction, you've made Iran the predominant power in the region - and they, unlike the Sunnis originally, do hate you on matters of principle. Good job on that. This was actually the reason that the CIA recommended *not* taking down Hussein after the first Gulf War, but you can only throw so much fabricated evidence at reason before it buckles.
@SDogood
Never called you idiots. Called a few of you dolts, called your foreign policy insane, and scolded you for giving Iran more power than it's due.
@Talonx
History aside, you can't tolerate another nation smashing planes into your buildings. That is equal to suicide on the world stage. I understand your moral objections, and I might even agree, but that's just not how the world works. You'll have to learn to live with it, I'm afraid.
@Whatzup
If you want to be strictly technical about it, if Germany hadn't caused over 100 million casualties, of which 24 million were deaths, to the Soviet Union during WW2, you'd be speaking Russian, by the way. You're welcome. America continually overestimates it's own worth in matters like that. Yes, your help was important sometimes, but Reagan and his ICBMs didn't end the Cold War, because nobody was ever interested in a nuclear war. What did stop the cold war was the dozens of millions of standing men-at-arms fielded by Germany, France, Italy, and England, in no particular order, by making war simply too costly to be profitable. And by the way, there is no substantive difference in our health care now, or when we had 17 million reserves-at-arms. So, no, defense spending isn't the difference - the priorities of the average man are.
It wasn't a nation that smashed planes into buildings but a group of fanatics that would probably fit into a langley meeting room. Removing their support by the taliban in 2002 was justified, but that is done now and the job should be to either remove the fanatics completely or ensure they get no safe haven elsewhere. Chasing the taliban around afganistan is a rathole with a downside - while the coalition continue to use disproportionate tactics with consequential innocent casualties, they are driving otherwise moderates into the fanatic camp.
I'm not completely convinced of your cold-war argument - I'm not sure that anyone was really interested in a ground war either. Some on both sides ramped up the temperature in order to increase investment in their areas - military, security and industrial. Proxy wars suited both sides. What did stop the cold war was that one side went bankrupt before the other - which is what you would expect in a spiraling arms race.
Germany currently manages to spend thousands less per person on health care each year. They have a pretty efficient system, definately more sustainable than anything existing in the U.S.
Additionally, the reason Europe doesn't speak Russian has nothing to do with the facts on the ground in WWII or even right at the end. In fact, Stalin was referred to as Uncle Joe in the U.S. and U.K.. This all Changed in 1949 of course, but that was four years later.
Learn yourselves some history before speaking out your #ss.
@ Grenadier
Afghanistan didn't smash planes into buildings in the U.S.
The us has created a super-hero with more fire-power than the rest of the world put together. But, where is our über-baddie? Well the ussr fit the bill nicely for a while, but its gone quiet now so we must create a new one and along comes al qaeda bang on schedule - we didn't invent it, but we can milk it for all its worth
the number of fanatics pre-afganistan and iraq was a few hundreds, now it is orders of magnitude more and growing - soon, we'll have a real villain!
9/11 killed nearly 3000 people - in afganistan and iraq the total is a half million and rising - tell me again who the super-goodie is?
Where did the gas come from? The U.S. and they knew what it was being used for.
Well, actually the majority came from Germany, France, Italy, and the Soviet Union if you must know. The US sent specimens that were to be in such low quality that they were not supposed to be able to be weaponized; rather they were to be used for vaccines.
@Grenadier
Never called you idiots. Called a few of you dolts, called your foreign policy insane, and scolded you for giving Iran more power than it's due.
You're correct, actually you said, " NEVER compare yourself to the US, because they are all insane." Perhaps you intended to refer to policies. Either way...I think you may actually not be giving Iran it's proper due. Facts are that the country is controlled by Islamic Fascists who have openly stated their intent to destroy Israel the minute they get their hands on a nuke.
Afghanistan did NOT smash planes into the US...however, their controlling government did; in so much as the Talaban supports Al Qaeda. People must understand that not only with the leadership in Iran, but the radical Islamist means to destroy all of us. It is their belief that if you do not convert to Islam, you will "have alternating limbs cut from your body."
If you think that national borders will shield you, you are sorely mistaken; they call this Dar al-harb and intend on creating a world of Dar al-Islam. The radical Islamist believes that the end of the world with begin wtih a great fireball...well, what better way to create that than setting off a nuke in Israel? This will bring about their version of Revelations. And of course, to die as a Shahid (Nazi's call this: blutzeuge) is the holiest of duties. As when you blow yourself up, you come as close to Allah as you ever will. That's the enemy we ALL face...even peaceful Muslims.
To the point of the article, we must all remember that we are having to take the word of Wikileaks. The thousands of pages have yet to be sifted through so be cautious on your assumptions. Most of what was released are field reports and this may have come from a soldier having a bad day or who holds a grudge. At this point no one knows for certain. What we do know is that the citizens and citizen soldiers of this Nation are greatful for the ally we have in Germany.
For michael4096: Theres no super villain, just a lot of degenerate slobs running around with their own agendas, ie. warlords, drug smugglers, religious fanatics, etc. that sometimes form common cause. And that makes them dangerous. And don't blame the US for the vast majority of folks killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Its the creepy insurgents and and venial factions that do most of the killing. As most unbiased observers realize its America and its allies that are trying to hold the place together. So thats right, the US is the surper-goodie. Not perfect by any means but the goodie nevertheless.
As far as responsibility for the killing, it doesn't matter who you or I pin the blame on, the point is that those that are left believe that if it hadn't been for heavy handed military decisions their loved ones would be alive and their homeland/religion wouldn't be under threat
However, you miss the point: big military -> big reaction -> bigger military for response -> lots of lovely contracts, porc and all the other things that goes into creating super-heros
The fact is the world IS getting smaller and insurgents who try to strangle democracy and human rights take upon themselves the risk that someone is going to come down on them with a heavy hammer for it.
Yes, I'm out of my mind and I know nothing about what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't know that the Iraqi war was predicated 100 percent on falsehoods concocted by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the neocons controlling American foreign policy. I don't know that the Director of Central Intelligence, Leon Panetta, has testified before congress that there are fewer than 100 al Qaeda currently in Afghanistan. I don't know that there are approximately 100,000 American troops, and roughly the same number of mercenaries, in Afghanistan to kill those few al Qaeda remnants. I don't know that somehow the war against al Qaeda somehow morphed into a war against the Taliban while we were distracted. I don't know that there were no al Qaeda in Iraq until the US invaded, and I certainly don't know that Pakistan's intelligence service is openly supportive of the Taliban in a campaign to exercise hegemony over Afghanistan. Nor do I know that al Qaeda is openly operating from Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Sudan, Indonesia and innumerable other safe havens while the fiction of fighting them in Afghanistan has yielded nothing but loss of innocent lives and vast treasure. I don't know that the Karzai regime is among the most corrupt on the planet and that billions of US taxpayer dollars spent in Afghanistan are being siphoned off to support tribal leaders and drug lords who are buying villas in Kuwait while flooding the market with heroin and opium. I don't know that no country in history has ever successfully waged a war in Afghanistan. I don't know that the American economy is choking from the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan courtesy of Bush and Co., creating a budget deficit that my grandchildren will be saddled with. Like you, I don't know any of those facts. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
You weren't around during the Vietnam war, were you? Maybe you should read a book or two. Or better yet, go over to Afghanistan and kill a few people to make the world safe for American-style democracy and then get back to us.
- state run execution of anyone you don't like without judicial oversight
- state run vigilantes provided with advanced weaponry
- imprisonment and torture without any evidence a crime has even been commited
- presidential pardons for mass murderers
- creation and support of corrupt regimes
- manufacture of evidence to create public support for war
are you sure that "envy" is the correct word?
Your crude ad hominem attacks betray your dearth of knowledge. However, as you seem to be the American jingoist-in-chief around here, why don't you try to make a compelling argument that the war in Afghanistan is justifiable and winnable? Just one. Hundreds of millions of people in the US, Europe and around the world believe otherwise. How about indulging us with your military and geo-political expertise? We're waiting with baited breath.
whatzup - how was it possible that you never went to high-school? Is this something that happens frequently in the US? Just asking...
Prufrock, you'd better pray that the war is winnable, crude tho you think the folks are who are fighting it for you. Unless of course you like the idea of prostrating yourself 3 times a day while facing the east under duress. Doesn't it penetrate your thick noggin that the world will do * whatever * it takes to pacify the middle east no matter what it says for consumption to millions of gullible folks like yourself who are not yet aware of the possible extent of the required resource commitments? Its life and death on the scale of opposing civilizations and Afghanistan is a cancer that has to be excised before the islamic beasts of burden around here discover that respect is only an insurrection away.
People in power know this stuff intuitively but it has eluded you. So keep on blowing smoke about things that you are not cognizant and I'll pray that folks like yourself and my family don't have to pay a price of these kinds of idiotic distractions.
I'm getting bored. If you still can't understand this after I've laid it out for you then just go on without me and pretend you have it right. Tschüss
The only thing you've "laid out" is that your purported doctoral thesis definitely wasn't in political science, history or English.
I invited you to present a cogent argument to support your belief that the war in Afghanistan is justifiable and winnable. Obviously you cannot do that. Keep waving that American flag like a mindless cretin and revel in your snarky self-delusion. You have nothing of substance to contribute to this discussion, merely a worthless jingoistic tautology. "Whatzup" is an appropriate handle for someone as clueless as you repeatedly demonstrate yourself to be.
Also, get yourself a defense minister who doesn't dress like a gay fashion designer. It sends the wrong message.
And, "...some higher education in the USA" - education on WHAT? What kind of education would the USA be able to give?
Hey Eagle1 - in Germany I don't think potential ministers are supposed to show their wardrobes prior to get nominated. It might be like that in the US, I don't know... Would explain, though, how someone like George W. Bush could become your President even TWICE, DESPITE of his political "skills"! I mean, yes, he did dress nicely...
I prefer to think of america as a teenager trying to come to grips with developing the size and body of a the largest of adults. Everytime it turns it knocks something over. Major confusion between 'might' and 'right'. Absolutely confident that it can do anything it wants but unsure what that is.
And, always complaining that nobody understands or loves them.
the people who had the greatest influence on these 'rules' were the u.s.a - britain russia, and i believe the jewish world community..as isral had not yet exhisted when the rules were drawn up...then wider accepted.
gemany does as much as it is allowed. and sorry, to not inform all players on one side what is mostly happening is always a bad strategy.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
The Wikileaks documents provide us with information that the combatant governments have known all along but have concealed from us. The war is an untenable and ill-begotten disaster.
For another comment on this subject, I recommend the following:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,708850,00.html
To the swaggering doofus elements around here who think the war is such a great idea, I suggest that you get your asses over there and put your money where your mouths are.
the story so far: a group of muslims want to build a memorial (mosque, something, it's not clear) on ground zero and our pattie thinks this is, like, christians building a church on the site failed heathen resistance which is, of course, an indication how all americans must now resist the ultimate evil: (well, that's also unclear, liberals, maybe, whatever, people who THINK OTHER TH'N WOT EYE DOO) Yer, the accent embarasses me
So, muslims - thats all x billion of you, not the 20 or so in any way connected with 9/11 - you are not allowed to join in our grief. (Yes, I know, muslims died also but we must neglect them to keep this 'managable'.) and, even suggesting that you build anything on ground zero (remember, collective guilt 'r us) , proves that you are, at best gloating, and, at worst, really gloating.
So, all you americans, you must raise your communal voice, and stop this,, this.. this, whatever it is.. that threatens to destroy.. whatever it is.. that we hold most sacred and.. (to be honest, I forgot the rest)
Adolf would be proud
BTW Most christian churches in northern europe are built on iron age sacred sites because it was much easier getting people to sing different songs than to visit different places
Sure this is propaganda, welcome propaganda. Perhaps not on a par with some of the more subtle work turned out by hollywood during world war II but a welcome straightforward exposition of uncomfortable facts. Mr. Condell's outrage in this clip reflects what a lot of us feel on this issue.
Speaking of "defending the indefensible," this is now the 4th time I've invited you to defend the war in Afghanistan. Try it. Demonstrate to all of us your geopolitical acumen. Oh, that's right. You can't. Instead of trolling a German website from Arizona, Arkansas or Texas, or whatever backward state you live in, why don't you confine your hate speech to America where it is constitutionally protected and appreciated by people of your dubious intelligence. I'm sure your guru Glenn Beck will provide you with all the talking points you need.