February 10, 2012
Published: 20 Mar 10 19:11 CET
Updated: 20 Mar 10 19:49 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20100320-26009.html
Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou implicitly criticised Germany on Saturday for allegedly opposing efforts to help his country out of its fiscal crisis, warning Berlin risked destabilising the European Union.
AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)
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Your comments about this article:
What?
Greece sucks. It's people want their government to babysit them while they sit home and eat gyros. That's why Greece is in the hole that it is in. Imagine if Greece didn't have pretty islands that Germans and others want to visit on vacation. Some African counties would be in better economic shape. Greece's entire culture needs an overhaul.
Thinks are not so simples.Open the 2010 "economist-coumtries of the world" and you ;ll see that the greek cap/person is higher that the spannish and very close to italian. This not the problem. Greece bacame target of the anti-euro speculation bacause of his internal deficite witch is SMALLER the italian. Obviously the greek economical dynamism is far weaker that italian. From the other hand a group of financial "centers" are related with a large packet of speculation "beting" in greek bankrut. The target isn;t greece and the greek gyros. The target IS THE EURO!
I;m possitively surprised about your geographical and social capacity. YOU know everything!! YOU know that greeks eats gyros!! BRAVO! (I inform you that YOUare the principal consomateur de gyros when you come in Greece bacause YOU dont spend money for something better). YOU know EVERYTHING! BRAVO! BUT you dont know that the DDR became EU member 11 years after Greece when the eastgerman income was the HALF of the GREEK!
Be serious. What does "Germanizing" even mean? I don't see any Germans forcing sausages or spaetzle down anyone's throat or handcuffing beer steins to their wrists. Wanting to be "led" is typical socialist infantile thinking. "We can't help ourselves, so you need to help us." Do you think the French really want to be led by the Germans? Give me a break. Further, should the Germans even attempt to "lead," a bunch douchebags would come out of the woodwork and start making references to Nazism and Germany forcible attempts at dominance. Very simply, Germany is and has been working harder than its neighbors. Nothing new here.
Only Greeks can believe such nonsense.
Guess who built the house of straw? Guess who built the house of bricks? Guess who's running for help when the big bag wolf, also known as Economic Reality, comes calling?
I guess it proves you can't do it cheap, and then play all day, right?
wa
Greece attained its membership fraudulently. It should not be allowed to remain in the EU until it admits that and agrees to reform its government's hiring, personnel, budgeting, and spending policies. The EU should set up a list of management priorities and reforms, with monitoring and penalties, in exchange for a bailout.
Right now you have Greek politicians lying to their people saying that it's all the fault of Big Banks (not true) or German's, what?, selfishness? That's all rubbish. The EU should sue Goldman for perpetrating this fraud.
No government employee with job security deserves a "bonus". If you don't have job security, then in the private sector you can get a bonus. That's the trade off. If you take risk and you win, you get a bonus. If you get a secure job with benefits and it's hard to fire you or lay you off, you don't get a bonus, only a salary for your work.
Greeks have made their country a laughing stock. A bail out in exchange for reforms with monitoring and penalties if you don't. End of story.
as a hardworking, tax-paying German with a (sort of) government job, I find the idea of a bailout extremely distasteful (although I do believe I should get a gov't bonus for being shot at and generally threatened with violence while "at work").
However, unlike many modern Germans, the term "national interests" IS definitely in my vocabulary. Would I like to see the great European experiment succeed? Of course! But we're a long way from a "United States of Europe", and at this point in history, GERMAN national interests are best served by bailing Greece out of the financial hole that they have dug for themselves with the help of unscrupulous criminals in the finance industry.
Do I like the idea of giving my tax money to these PIIGS? No, of course not. But this isn't the time for strategically myopic "feel-good" solutions...
Are you saying that demanding reforms as a condition for a bailout is 'myopic'? Because most loans, and certainly outright grants, normally come with a set of conditions that must be met or adhered to.
I know that the EU is a long way from a "United States of Europe". However, I do believe that it is each individual country's elite who benefits the most from the lack of integration. And, I think the majority of citizens, including Germans, benefit from an EU that can demand compliance from its member countries. Especially if it's Germany who sets the example and leads by it.
I think that if we just 'give' them a bailout with no strings, they will continue their unreformed ways and their elected officials will attempt to stir up populist anger in Greece against reform, Germany, and the EU.
Goldman aided in the fraud. Germany, each member country, and the EU should all begin filing lawsuits against them in every court, where Goldman operates.
Actually, your facts are 100% falsch. GS has been and is currently adivisng the GERMAN government, so no they are not filing these "mass" charges like you state. And the speculators did not "cause" the harmful decisions of Greece, Spain, Italy, etc.
German is going back to the DM. All the pressure from fellow EU members, makes Berlin realize that a) They must bail out Greece b) Berlin is starting to form a currency reform back to the DM in late April c) Germany is not taking any leadership role in the EU nor Eurozone whatsoever because they are not ready.
Facts are facts. Some people just cant handle the truth.
Apparently we just misunderstood each other. I COMPLETELY agree with you that the bailout must have strings. However, Greece and certain elements here in Germany seem to think that we should just give them the money (no strings) in the leftist social-utopian spirit of "european-ness" (which is naively stupid). And then there are those who misguidedly believe that we should just let the Greeks sit and rot in their Mediterranean cesspool of bankruptcy, along with Portugal, Spain and Italy (which is strategically myopic in terms of Germany's long term interests).
@wxman:
lol. those legendary individuals were marginalized by the Athenian "boy-lovers", to quote King Leonidas in the movie I think you're referring to.
(interestingly enough the Spartans were inevitably eliminated (in part) because the other Greeks were better at things like science and ECONOMICS) haha :-)
@Eagle1 Right, have you heard of Obama?
Greece hid its true financial situation with Goldman consultants. That's where the fraud occurred. Their own budgetary recklessness is a separate issue.
Germany is the economic engine of Europe. And, other EU countries are envious of it and admire it. Currency integration is a threat to Big Banks and the elites in individual countries, not to ordinary citizens and working people. The EU needs a stronger enforcement and monitoring tool to make sure its members are behaving.
@Deustchguy: The EU dream is over. Too much debt at German banks held by Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy. Germany will exit the Euro, appreciate the DM, then pay its debts at a haircut at a much lower rate. It wont harm the Euro. Otherwise, the alternative is pay for Greece, pay for Spain, also Germany cant pay out its pensions as those numbers are not counted in the debt-to-GDP statistic.
GS is not getting sued. GS is advising German Government on many different levels currently...
Even if the US COULD "push" Germany to do something, why would they advocate the strengthening/stabilization of a competing trade currency??
The US could theoretically facilitate (or block) saving Greece via the IMF (since the US has a lot of clout in the IMF in terms of voting rights). That said, if you think about all the domestic economics sh!t the US is currently dealing with, obtaining the political momentum necessary to bail a foreign country out of economic hardship is gonna be ibe hell of a tough sell...
This from the lead story today does not bear out any of your assertions.
Do you work for Goldman? Would you personally benefit from dumping the Euro currency for the DM? It sure sounds like it.
And, since we all know that Goldman help perpetrate Greece's fraud to enter the Euro, why would you oppose suing them?
"And, since we all know that Goldman help perpetrate Greece's fraud to enter the Euro, why would you oppose suing them? "
1. You can only sue Goldman Sachs Int'l GmbH - The fatheads in Frankfurt never worked on these deals, so good luck trying to sue people who work in other countries.
2. No, I dont work for GS.
3. You would never win because Goldman Sachs never caused Greece's deficit/budget decisions. The swaps that were used are also being used for your very own Government. GS is Berlin's biggest advisor. Look in your own backyard before you make trouble in others.
Get you facts straight before barking off. You know what they say about yelling into a forest? Germany, Italy, France, Spain all have these same swaps from GS, you turd.
Incidentally, peschvogel, Goldman Sachs can be sued by anyone anywhere in the world who has been harmed by their practices. The venue is New York Federal District Court. I would caution you not to offer legal opinions without knowledge of the law.
Your just jealous because you could never work for Goldman Sachs. Whatever it was, your grades werent good, your experience is not good, dont turn a countries public budget deficits problems and rest them on a bank. Typisch...
Berlin has these same swaps, so what you are saying is when Germany bails out greece and spain and then the euro fails and the sozial stadt is no longer, its Goldman's fault? Typisch...
I would "love" to see a NY Judge rule in favor of this foolery you suggest. That my dear Prufrock2010 is a pipe dream. Thats like me saying I want to sue someone in Germany bcause my Audi has engineering problems when the Audi wasnt even made in Germany. Ungloublisch but Typisch...
If Goldman helped hide Greece's deficits while they were applying for membership in the EU, Goldman is culpable. And it really won't matter who was working where or which legal entities only THINK they protected by some national boundary.
All anyone would need is the signed documents by Goldman re: the swaps for the Greek government. It should be easy enough to turn a government treasury employee as "state's" evidence/ witness, in Greece of all places.
Why are you so protective of Goldman's interests? Why would you care if they did get sued. Their squirrely financial instruments based on thin air is what brought on the credit crisis and plunged the world into recession.
Sue the bastards!
Not angry, just intelligent and great "gross" satisfaction debunking your "legal" theories. You certainy would make a terrible international lawyer...
Again, now you are saying that Goldman Sachs is directly the cause Germany allowed Greece into the Eurozone when "in fact" and "in writing" other countries (e.g. France, Italy) have all bent the rules to allow membership. Once agin you are wrong. : )
The "everything in writing" and "guilt until proven innocent" and "juris prudence" and "due process" laws are old and not relevant outside of your aging legal system. Actually, the international community looks down upon the German legal system as many of these laws are "over bearing" and significantly "out dated".
I couldnt gibe a rats ass if you sued your moma, but I dont think any of your littl puny lawyers could ever win against a Goldman Sachs lawyer. Goldman Sachs did not start this crisis. This proves the level of intelligence I am dealing with hear! Ungloublisch. It was all the free and easy credit provided "worldwide". Europe is just now showing its participation.
And you are so "sue" happy. They dont just "sue" people in Germany like you suggest, so your "bring down the man" theory and anarchist writing will probably get you 20 in the gulag when Russia comes for their exestentialist prophecy...Typisch Deutsche...
Ad hominem attacks are not only indecorous, they betray the fundamental insecurity of the attacker.
I am confident that anyone reading this thread who has a basic knowledge of English and world affairs would acknowledge that my grades were probably good enough. Having devoted many years of my life to civil litigation in the U.S. before emigrating to these shores, I have a fair knowledge of how the law works in matters such as the one under discussion. That said, you are dead wrong in your legal "analysis." A corporation may be sued, and often must be sued, in the venue of its principal place of business. In the case of Goldman Sachs, that would be New York. As the subject of the action involves diversity (that is, necessary party plaintiffs residing outside of New York), the proper forum would be the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, which has jurisdiction to adjudicate such a dispute. Such lawsuits are filed and adjudicated daily.
In my opinion, Goldman Sachs should be civilly AND criminally prosecuted for fraud for its complicity in the Greek fiasco, as well as for its complicity in the events that led to the AIG bailout in the U.S. -- which was also the result of the abuse of credit default swaps. Since the American and European regulators have failed to curb these abuses or otherwise remedy the situation, those directly and adversely affected by Goldman Sachs' conduct should avail themselves of the courts to vindicate their rights.
I am not jealous. I am merely outraged by the rapacious greed of the criminals who have manipulated the financial markets to their own advantage at the expense of taxpayers, bondholders and counterparties who are innocent of wrongdoing, regardless of their geographic location. Alles klar?
Sorry, you have hate towards financial markets. But guess what, they have been based on speculation and manipulation before you were born son. You sound like you are a pissed off German because you know whats happening to your steuer. Hoch! Uber! High...You also sound like whats happening to Germany's economy and The Euro is Capitalism or America's fault. Your dead wrong. Whats happening to your own house now and why its unkept is because your Euro is structually faulted. And so is the German economy... Don't throw stones, yell into forests and call other people names until you look at yourself. Schade...
Prufrock for Attorney General! (or whatever it is we have here in Deutschland).
P.S. I think Pesch just needs to get laid. (but then whose standards are that low?)
Delusional Projection: as you have delusions about bringing down Goldman Sahcs and Capitalism to defend your weak earnings and poor position in society.
Denial: Typisch Deustche because of your social welfare system that puts its citizens in a "vote for me and you can be lazy and i will protect you" mode but those funds have expired.
Distortion: By exhibiting your twisted thoughts of Goldman Sachs causing the financial crisis.
Splitting: Splitting the German people and economy as "angels" and the big bad American and Capitalist ideals as "evil"
Acting out: Your first posting that GS is "wrong" and "bad" for mankind.
Fantasy: Your dream of being a trial attorney in the Germany vs. Goldman Sachs case but your only a puny civil employee.
Projection: In your own ideas, Goldman Sachs is causing Germany's current problems.
And you also show Neurotic characteristics not because you are German but:
Dissociation: because your a civil servant or whatever, you feel you should sue Goldman Sachs.
Intellectualization: Your mis-diagnosis of "Freudian projection compounded by woeful ignorance has comedic value" allows others to believe you are somewhat intelligent when this is further from the truth.
Rationalization: Where you, the attacker can never be wrong thru your words "Ad hominem attacks are not only indecorous, they betray the fundamental insecurity of the attacker."
Again, I could g on here but I think you might want to see someone about your illness. Seems like denial has triggered all of the other "mechanisms" in your mentally unstable brain. I am sure there are at least "some" good therapists in Germany? But then again, in such a culture, when one starts seeing a therapist, they are "labled" crazy by their own "mentally strong" "civil"ization.
Yes, Feliks, remember to put the headband on tight and connect the + and - correctly when self adminstering your shock therapy. Everything will be fine. Not to worry..
That was a belly laugh. you need one of those daily... Thanks baltog.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,685018,00.html