Published: 3 Jan 13 15:46 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/opinion/20130103-47127.html
With his intolerant comments about Swabian newcomers, long-time Berlin resident and former Bundestag President Wolfgang Thierse has taken the debate about gentrification in the German capital to a new low, argues Christian Bangel of ZEIT ONLINE.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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Your comments about this article:
Because you can't say that out loud.
So Thierse is criticized for being populist by blaming the rich germans from the south west for gentrifiying Berlin and you guys answer this with polemic even more anti-german populist comments?
As old New-Berliner it is hard to see how Berlin is changed by rich(er) newcomers who come for Berlin's coolness and dynamic, but want it quiet and clean as at home... I agree with Thierse's critic... I am not sure if he really only blames swabians, he is a smart guy and not known for gernalizing.
But you, Berlin für Alles, you are already so popular here for being populist and generalization into one direction appearst to be your talent.
Look first critically at yourself (and about what you write), before criticizing others.
His criticism is odd because that is the nature of cities everywhere. Go to London and in some areas, except for the architecture, you might think that you were in Lahore or Dhaka, and there is an eruv in the Golders Green area for orthodox Jews. The same is true of the Costas in Spain, where there are British communities still eating their roast beef and Yorkshire and barely speaking a word of Spanish.
Why should he think that Berlin, the capital city of Germany, should be any different? If this isn't what he wanted then he should have campaigned for the capital to remain in Bonn and hope that Berlin remained in splendid isolation.
As to swabians in Prenzlauer Berg - been there - yes, stuffy is a good word, also glaring, judgmental conformists.
this is not the first time you have critised me for speaking my mind and voicing my experiences and opinions. I do look at myself and I also look at the likes of you who cannot take critism, You say my opinions are populist. Maybe they are populist for good reason. Have you ever wondered why so many seem to have a similar opinion of Germany as I do. Especially on an ex-pat forum such as this. If you don't like to hear the hard truth about your beloved Deutsche then find a more nationalistic right wing forum to hang around.
And please STOP STALKING ME:
You would sound really impressive if you changed your login name to 'Berlin für Alles über Alles'...
PS: how could you forget to mention that these pesky Germans, apart from occupying beaches, also have no sense of humour?
He has never made derogatory remarks concerning immigrants from outside Germany, In all is publications and his tenue as President of the Bundestag he has always shown an interest in intercultural dialogue.
Although I'd heard all that, I'd also heard from friends who had been stationed in Germany, and they had a much different story. Generally much more positive, and almost without exception, including the words "once they get to know you."
In my 20+ trips to the country, I can count on one hand the number of truly negative situations I've found. Yup, I found a guy at the Landisarchiv in Berlin that was completely unwilling to do anything, and likely tossed my written request in the garbage, possibly even before I made it out of the building. I've interviewed a number of "survivors" from the post-WWII period and a couple were limited in what they were willing to share, but I suspect that's true in any group. I was asking about things that were probably painful memories, and I acknowledged that right up front. Those that "didn't want to talk about 'that' weren't offended, just reticent to bring up memories. On the other hand, many shared much more than I expected...and willingly.
In short, if you spend a little bit of time and effort, most people turn out to be...people. They have the same fears, desires, and hopes that you have, even if they "look different" or speak a different dialect or language.
Too bad Herr Thierse can't get past a Weckle and learn more about those he blanket condemns. Truth be told, I feel more at home in Berlin than I do in New York (which is not my home). Yup, there are a few people who are exceptions, but...aren't there always?
wa
Second, I am an expat in Berlin myself and actually all my friends are. I do not see any anti-German populism among expats in Berlin, only here... I do neither love nor hate Germans, they are diverse people like all other people too!
People from all over the world move to Berlin because it is such a liberal, free place where you can do anything. And please never put me into the right-wing corner. I moved to Berlin BECAUSE I am left wing and want a tolerant place to live. Berlin is the best place for this, better than Amsterdam, Paris or Barcelona.... places I lived before.
I do not criticize anyone for being critical but I do not see any point in your comments than being polemic. Of course you can also be polemic here but with polemic comments you do not ad anyting construcitive to a discussion.
Relax and do not take yourself to important. So now I will take another 2 weeks break from here.
That is because he is a self-loathing Progressive liberal. He has all the hatred and bigotry of a far right-winger; he just chooses to aim it at "politically correct" targets like White Europeans, Christians, etc, etc. I learned long ago that people like this are every bit as hateful, intolerant, and bigoted as the far-right, they just direct all that at more socially acceptable targets. Under it all, he's probably just as narrow-minded as your average neo-nazi.
Thierse does not target White Europeans or Christians! He talked about so called Swabian newcomers (Swabian are Germans from Baden-Würtemberg) who come to dirty Berlin for its coolness but do not tolerate any noise, dirt or party outside of their door and wanna create another clean and neat Swabia in Berlin (and so paradoxically destroy the Berlin for which they originally came for).
I appears the arrow struck a little too close to home for some.
You have been 'Chris_berlined'. Seems like he cannot accept another point of view from his own. Seems to suffer from the illusion that he is the only one right and must critisise other points of view personally and insultingly.
By the way I agree with your point of view. It is a common one to have amongst ex-pats no matter what Chris says. Hopefully i am allowed to say this without getting verbally blasted again for speaking my commonly held point of view.
Why Schwabs would want to move to Berlin is beyond me, unless their profession requires it.
Someone get me a Haller Lowenbrau while I ponder this.
But your statement that expats generally do not like Berlin or Germany is not supported by any statistics and also not by anyone I have talked to, on the contrary! Berlin is a fast growing city (astest growing in Germany) - at least 250.000 new inhabitants by 2030 despite the low birth rate! This is only due to the high influx of (today Western) immigrants. And this is not because there is much work in Berlin, it is just because of BERLIN. Expats love Berlin, that is why they come and settle here. That is why I speak more English and French than German in Berlin... I just went back to Switzerland (my home country) and I am so happy to be back here. It feels like home and I am sure I speak for many of the 100s of 1000s who come here year by year.
In my experience many more would like to stay in Berlin but not everyone gets a job...
Further axioms on side-burns, bathing naked, why Germans never lose at sport and how to become an avantgarde art genius with the contents of your pocket.
Dispathes from Berlin, every Friday: www.isitajoke.de
"Anything" apparently doesn't include speaking anything other than Berlin dialect or spending money on improving one's property, because if you do, relics like Thierse become rude. Berlin is left-wing and sexually liberated, but it is neither tolerant nor liberal.
"Expats love Berlin"
Some expats probably do: it's a party city for kinky 20-somethings, and it's quite cheap. But lots of expats don't like it. I try to spend as little time in Berlin as possible.
Yes, Germans are a difficult nation to get along with. Too much of this 'towels on the beach' mentality in all walks of German life for my liking.