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Is Germany a horrible place to raise a family?

Published: 18 Dec 12 11:48 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/opinion/20121218-46833.html

Despite generous child subsidies, tax breaks and parental leave, fewer Germans want to start a family. Is Germany really such an inhospitable place to have kids? Have your say.

It's long been known that Germany faces a demographic collapse in the coming decades, as too few children are being born to keep the population from shrinking dramatically.

In fact, there are just ten countries in Europe that have a lower birth rate, which at 1.39 children per woman in Germany currently stands far below the replacement rate.

This is despite the buckets of money that Germany spends on families. While married couples with children benefit from hefty tax breaks, all parents also receive hundreds of euros in child subsidies each month. Introducing generous parental leave for up to 14 months a few years ago has also failed to really dent the country's birth dearth.

And a new study released on Monday revealed the country is becoming a less attractive place to have children as people struggle to balance the demands of a family with their careers.

So what's the problem? Do Germans simply not like kids? Are outdated stereotypes about being a "good mother" keeping women at home? Or have the authorities failed to offer enough day care options for working parents?

Have your say.

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Your comments about this article:

#1
12:29 December 18, 2012 by ND1000
Horrible?? Its not a horrible place at all, just full of spoiled, selfish people who cant imagine taking care of someone else. They live to be taken care of.
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#2
12:39 December 18, 2012 by trevzns
Germany is not an inhospitable place to have children. I will say it again.

Stop making excuses and starting making more babies.

And yes it will be expensive, sex or love is not FREE.
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#3
13:00 December 18, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
I would say it is more the system and how children are brought up to be selfish and not respect adults and the elderly that is the problem in Germany. I so often see children and teenagers knock adults out of the way to get to something or somewhere first. If I did that as a kid in the UK I would have had very angry parents to contend with. Here it seems to be accepted.
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#4
13:13 December 18, 2012 by Haching2000
Deutschland ist und bleibt Kinderfeindlich. Schwangere Frauen bleiben versteckt zuhause. Germany is and always has been a country that hates children. Women that are pregnant prefer to stay at home and out of sight. It's just the way it is.
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#5
13:17 December 18, 2012 by TheCrownPrince
Germany can be a horrible place to raise a family, but not necessarily so. Yet the birth rate is constantly low. Being one of the countries with the highest standard of living, material factors certainly are no reason for this development. But I for one see several other reasons: 1) More and more young Germans just do not want to have children because they regard them as hindrance for their personal way of life. 2) The state / the employers (still) do not provide optimal work/life-systems for people who want to have children. 3) Other people′s children are often regarded as a nuisance by Germans, unless they are perfectly well behaved and disciplined (more or less like little robots). I wonder how many other countries can boast law suits because of noise from playgrounds.
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#6
13:22 December 18, 2012 by yllusion
If Germany is not a good place to raise a family, then there aren't many options left on the planet. If not Germany, what else? Switzerland? Scandinavia? Australia? Canada? Japan? People should go out and experience the world in order to understand what a nice place central Europe is. If people from the most developed countries don't care about keeping their native population by having children, they will slowly kill their own culture and disappear from the face of the Earth.
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#7
14:01 December 18, 2012 by Zubair Khan
An interesting topic. Having lived more than two decades and been fully integrated in the German society, to me, problem is not that simple which can be solved by raising financial advantages or leave period. After having talked to many Germans I am of the view it requires complete overhauling of the current German mind set. Main argument which I came across was better to have a pet as substitute to kid. Reasons, pet will remain pet and neither will increase problems for you nor will question your rights. Relative to pet kid will grow each day and likely to question you and will leave you alone after specific period of time. Requirements and necessities of kid are also different relative to pet.

Many a times children force the parents to make new decisions that are needed to accommodate them. If parents are not skilled in making mutually agreeable decisions that take each other's feelings into account, the lifestyle created by these new decisions can become intolerable for all the parties.

When asked about the aim of life most Germans replied, good work, money and sex. With these aim ingredients, family life has no place in the majority of German minds. Importance of family bondage, love with own blood, joint family system etc are all bookish things to many Germans. Hardly Germans know that people get married most of the time because of love, and not wanting to be apart from someone. To make a baby together that is half you and half the one you love is a powerful thing.

Just few decades ago it was neither a problem in Germany nor elsewhere in Europe. People were more affectionate, sympathetic and considerate. Social and ethical norms were at high priority. When Almighty created human being He clearly guided to follow the rights of God and rights of fellow being. When Creator has clearly laid down the aim of life why not to follow His commandments. And it is proven fact when creature follows the guidelines given by Creator all problems get solved. To me the mind set of Germans needs a complete overhaul to modify the aim ingredients of their life if nation has to survive as respectable entity on this planet.
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#8
16:29 December 18, 2012 by catjones
Zubair Khan...'Just few decades ago ....... People were more affectionate, sympathetic and considerate.'

Was that during the Soviet occupation? The War years? Sorry, I missed the affectionate, sympathetic and considerate memo.
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#9
16:59 December 18, 2012 by freechoice
it's much easier to have lot's of kids, if you stop thinking about your own needs and wants. or nothing else is more pleasurable than cuddling and hugging a cute bundle of joy in front of you.
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#10
18:04 December 18, 2012 by satish03kumar
i assume more daycare centers are needed to raise kids which is causing hindrance to increase in birth rate. Govt should takecare to provide more places for kids in daycare which allows parents to continue their career.
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#11
18:05 December 18, 2012 by dacarch
Some of the above comments ring true... Germans are annoyed easily and can be quite selfish. Crying babies and six year olds asking questions about everything they see may be too much for many as the statistics prove. That does not mean that this is a bad place to have a baby and a six year old, quite the contrary, with all the perks cited in the article (which can only happen in a rich country), and in general a good standard of living, it is a very good place. I should know, being the father of two. What I also know is being a parent is the most rewarding, difficult and important task we can ever undertake. Take the plunge people, you will not regret it... mostly.
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#12
18:28 December 18, 2012 by Livioxxx
In Germany everything is becoming more and more unflexible. The only ones, who benefit from the current situation are the companies.
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#13
18:35 December 18, 2012 by The-ex-pat
Ah, the weekly inflammatory headline question that we have come to expect from the Local...............
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#14
19:00 December 18, 2012 by MaKo
Is this a joke???? Germany is an awesome place to raise a family! We could do with some more child care options to be sure, but it is ****safe****, the education system is pretty good, and healthcare is great. What more do you want?
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#15
19:27 December 18, 2012 by Anny One again
@Berlin fuer alles #3

But something seems probably still go wrong in the UK.

The brit.department of health has now submitted the report to a Commons committee inquiry, warning that young adults who drink to excess are more likely to be involved in crime.

The report said: ¦quot;The UK is consistently in the top five European countries for binge drinking and drunkenness among school children.¦quot;

I can still remember very well the politeness/hooliganism of the British during the World Cup in Germany or during the Holidays in different european Countries.Need some Photos?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181830/Magaluf-notorious-binging-British-teenagers-results-proving-fatal.html#comments

And it looks not different on weekends in brit.Cities

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140657/Booze-Britain-Young-women North-East-fined-drunkenness-country.html
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#16
19:29 December 18, 2012 by Big L
My observation as a visitor to your country - no Germany is certainly not a horrible place, but most Germans are selfish and extremely materialistic. Having kids interveres with their feverish 'Gold rush'.
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#17
19:52 December 18, 2012 by BR549
I think Germany is just fine for raising a family. Sure, it is not perfect, but where is?? Also, I don't think Germans are selfish at all...I have completely integrated myself here and find my friends most generous and helping.
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#18
19:58 December 18, 2012 by Englishted
@Anny One again,

Oh please not the Daily Mail ,and why the dislike of the U.K. ?
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#19
20:41 December 18, 2012 by MattyB
19:58 December 18, 2012 by Englishted

There's a reason the Germans in my neck of the woods call the British "Island Monkeys."
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#20
21:16 December 18, 2012 by Anny One again
@ Englishted

What do you mean by this question ?You should better ask the classic question "who started it."

Bfa obviously Briton blaspheming here every day about anything and everything that is German.I think that it is probably allowed to remind him from time to time,that there are also a lot of problems in his home country.

Besides, the Daily Mail was not the only source.

@ Big L , from which country do you come from?
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#21
22:29 December 18, 2012 by ovalle3.14
There was a time when there was no such thing as day care centre and people had far more babies than they do today. The problem, as many have pointed out, lies in the fact that having a family has a catch and in today's values (Germany certainly has no monopoly on this) less and less people are willing to take the step.

My guess after little more than 2 years here is that overall people here are intolerant with anything unpredictable.
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#22
00:29 December 19, 2012 by DOZ
I am sure Canada is much worse a place to raise childrem. Totally abusive Adult System, especially it's education system.
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#23
13:01 December 19, 2012 by KirstenB
The main problem here is that it is so hard for women to work.

A case - friend of mine: 3 kids. All have different morning starts at school, all have different finish times - and this every day for their whole school lives ! This year, twice a week, she has time between 9:15 and 11:15 - that's when all three are at school. How are you meant to get a job and work with that kind of availability? Child care options for school children are pretty scanty, or else far too expensive.
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#24
15:38 December 19, 2012 by www.emungus.net
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
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#25
18:03 December 19, 2012 by owlguard
The real question is why have people's goals changed. Historicly in an agrarian society, kids mean labor force but not today because today we use tractors. Tractors make it possible to increase the productivity of one farmer. However, the tractor costs money so does the farmer make any more profit than before? Historicly, it was life-style. The man wanted to come home to his wife and kids. The wife saw her value in raising children. Rasing children is hard work. i think it is easier for woman to work at office than raise children. Then there are taxes and electric bills and all sorts of wonderful toys that just were not available 100 year ago. But all those taxes, bills, and toys cost money. I boils down to values. Germany is just as good a place to raise children and anywhere else and better by far than most but what does a young couple really want? For what are they willing to sacrifice? The current economy does not help. Even if you love children and you see your values in having a family, do you risk starting a family only to lose it all when you lose your job? Now I tell you my opinion. When people, and I mean whole communities, had faith in a real and personal God and they believed in the Word of God which says children are a blessing from God and they trusted God to see them through what ever happened, then . . . then people saw value in families with lots of children and they pulled togather to support one another. Do not missunderstand me. Religion is not a sauve you rub over your hurts to make it go away. But many of us have been sudduced by our toys and the illusion of freedom that money gives us. But I fear that if we do not find our way back, (and I do not mean rejecting technology) to understanding that people is what the life is all about and children are a blessing of God to be encouraged and supported then our belief system will doom us to extinction. The Brits, the Germans, the America's and most of Europe all share a common anscestry. Our countries and societies were substantially shaped and changed by Christianity. Then why should we be surprised that as we lose our faith, we also lose our nationality? Germany is not the only nation looking for national pride. The vast majority of the counties (States are divided into counties) across the U.S. voted against Obama. He won because of the population in a minority of counties was greater than the rest of the country. But what does that tell you about what people in the "Heart land" of America think of him? So as America's taxes go up to support more social welfare programs and the economy stuggles to pay for it all, Amercians are forced to consider what do they really belief.
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#26
18:13 December 19, 2012 by www.emungus.net
THE ECONOMIC, THE FLESHLY : ROOTS TO OUR PROBLEMS?

1. Economy

Money has always been the root of all evil. Oh, maybe we are going rough here…let us soften the tone a little bit. Ok, well, money is the nerve of worries. Our so-called modern society is quite expensive, nothing is for free ­even a restroom pass, wanna ¦#39;¦#39;relieve¦#39;¦#39; yourself inside ?...Cash first of all !

Why social life is so expensive, why we have to pay for everything? Because the state must survive and live on (not you or your spouse).

Besides, this institution has come much more greedy over time. 100 € / month worth is nothing to the needs of a child. And in a sort of giving-taking back relationship, the government recovers that grant as soon as given.

When the state gets greedy, the environment gets tough ­ and when the living gets tough everyone get greedy too -so are households. We are living in a consumer society and by the way we get materialistic : women and men appear to be so covetous that any chance of raising kids seems volatile.

That said, economy is the maker and at the same time the breaker of the bonds of marriage.

2. Moral Depravity

Sex revolution, signed the 60s. Apparently none among us was born yet but all of us can follow this evolution through writings and behaviors. By ¦#39;¦#39;pioneering¦#39;¦#39; sex freedom this movement seems to turn gents and brides free-of-charge ­and chicken get easier...And here are. It is a ¦#39;¦#39;societal¦#39;¦#39; party, let us join in. This mass movement was born in the USA and seemed to championing unconditional free-and-easy sex. Everyone is everyone bedfellow, means sex at will…Who wouldn¦#39;t enjoy? No man or woman, no old or young nor child either, everyone joins in the fun. The government (officials) have their share in that fun too ­ even the church; priests also cut their deal in this party and strike as everyone a day-long boozing embellished after all by an after-party maybe. Wow! Everyone cut and enjoy their part of madness. At the end, today that sex revolution/freedom reveals to be a freedom to self-harm. Is there any way to raise a family here , dear editor? Doing so liken to build love over troubled water.
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#27
00:01 December 20, 2012 by EOSHORIZON
I moved to Germany 2 years ago while my Wife was pregnant with twins.

We now have three children.

There are people who raise their eyebrows when they see us in the city but there are others who stop and have a chat and think it is great.

Germany is not a bad country to raise your children but anyone`s opinion would be based on what part of it they live in and their financial situation.

We have next to no savings left after the financial crisis in Ireland wiped us out and still as we struggle to put things back on track here with one income and the heavy costs of life in Hamburg, the decision to move was one of the best we ever made. The facilities and infrastructure here are so much better and there are far more playgrounds and parks to visit for the children than back home.

Perhaps those who feel that Germany is a bad place to raise children should spend some time in other countries to see how good they really have it here.
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#28
04:58 December 20, 2012 by vonSchwerin
"Is Germany a horrible place to raise a family?"

YES! It seems that nearly everywhere I go, some random German has to tell me what I am doing wrong as a parent (not to mention as a pedestrian, postal customer, Bahn passenger, usw.).

How about people minding their own damn business.
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#29
11:28 December 20, 2012 by Aburgboy
Lower taxes, especially for single parents and you will see a big difference.

KirstenB is most correct. This point needs to be addressed, there is no consistency in the school schedules here.

We also need more Daycare facilities and programs. The current situations is that you have to wait for a spot, even for pre-k.
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#30
15:01 December 20, 2012 by Susan G
My baby is coming soon, and probably another after that one.
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#31
15:59 December 20, 2012 by leuteleute
We don¦#39;t have any problems raising our children here. They are all growing up properly nortured at home an in school. Most of all we don¦#39;t worry the future of our children here, we are 100 percent they can get better education and career in this country . We are very lucky as a family with children here in Germany.
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#32
23:08 December 20, 2012 by arbeitsbiene3
@Susan G @ leuteleute

Thats the way to make a contribution. Keep making babies and maybe there will be hope for the empire. Do not forget to enjoy the pleasures of baby making. smile
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#33
01:33 December 21, 2012 by hanskarl
And then you have the residuals from a bygone era still lurking in the background, Die Jugendamt.
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#34
15:56 December 21, 2012 by herr x
yes it is a horrible place to raise a family. children are too unpredictable and chaotic or germans who like to have things orderly and foreseeable--they are seen as a negative and a drag, more a bother to the rest os society. i have never known such a place where children are held in such regard, and the whole women/work issue here is just so retarded and archaic as to be laughable--i mean every other western country has--for better or worse--the arrangement figured out. solar technolgy, advanced car design--anything without a heart-- germany has perfected, but still in 2013 it can't seem to figure out this rather simple and normal problem of the working mother--so 1970's...
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#35
16:25 December 21, 2012 by wegosolo
Children are Expensive...Germans are CHEAP. What else needs to be said???
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#36
17:56 December 21, 2012 by Amazonjes
As a young American woman of childbearing age, I would like to say that I would love the chance to raise little ones in Germany. ;)
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#37
21:13 December 21, 2012 by Wise Up!
Germany has lost its identity to Europe which has not only led to a lack of will to defend democracy; it has led to a lack of to reproduce. With no religious identity and no national identity, even the desire to have children is affected.

Why reproduce a group you don't care much about?
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#38
00:00 December 22, 2012 by nparry
For German males, it is difficult to to DO IT with German females. They look increasingly masculine!!
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#39
04:33 December 22, 2012 by soros
I don't think Germany is unique in having a low birthrate and a young population that is reluctant to have children. This is universal in the developed economies and yes, it is a matter of lifestyle, not to mention women who prefer to be free of motherhood responsibilities.

Given the high divorce rate, women may not want to be stuck in poverty raising kids. Men might want children, but jobs are not secure and raising kids is an expensive proposition these days.

A lower birthrate might also be a blessing in disguise: advanced countries could have a fixed population with lower levels of immigration, the present rate of birth, and a lower status of living but a more environmentally friendly one.
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#40
11:27 December 22, 2012 by herr x
again, when it comes to germany, its the war, stupid.

old people were war children who were not loved by their parents--who had no time post war to deal with them in the way that they needed. they grew up stained, with the knowledge that they were somehow bad or responsible for something terrible. their parents were often broke and broken, and they swept all issues under the carpet and were told to behave and work.

these are the parents of the parents of today. their parents were not shown love nor were they. kids were seen as a burden, and all they could dream of was their sacred "urlaub" auf malla or wherever.

this is the german leitmotiv. it is their scarlet letter, their weight, which effects everything that they do, the way they work and live, and see family. add to the mix a population who lived under a totalitarian state--the ddr--and you start to see the people as more than a mix of hipster kids...
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#41
11:28 December 22, 2012 by dirving71
Germans are so order-obsessed culturally (inflexible at times) that their orderly lifestyle has no place for children. On top of that, the cost of living in Germany is extremely high (you can make monthly mortgage payments on a home in some countries that will not even cover basic rent in Germany). Combine that with the "chaotic" school scheduling which makes it almost impossible for women to work to help women maintain their careers, it is no wonder the birth rate is lower.
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#42
16:14 December 22, 2012 by Hillbask
I visit Germany each summer for a month. My husband is german. I have a teen son here in the US. I see many differences in how children are regarded in Germany vs. the USA. First, Germans don't crank out babies without a plan. When they do have families, the families are fairly small. Parents seem involved in family outings. Education is a huge emphasis. If Germans are restrained in having kids, it's because they want the entire family to have a high standard of living, which cannot happen if you have a farm load of children to feed and house. Second, housing in cities is small and expensive. Third, the beds in Germany for couples are just two twin beds pushed together with a big crack in the middle. Hardly suited for romance of cuddling. Fourth, German women are very independent and much more educated ( thanks to the more affordable higher education system there ) which compels them to pursue their careers without sidelining themselves to raise children, Fifth, when Germans take vacation time..they TRAVEL. Hard to do with a fleet of children unless you have a minivan ( which costs more in gas ) or a row of seating on an airplane ( who wants to pay $10,000 in just airfare to leave the continent? ). As in everyday, Germans value quality over quantity. The country is kid friendly. This is about economics and nothing more. Without all the immigrants flooding into Germany, citizens would have lower taxes and more money to raise kids.
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#43
05:53 December 23, 2012 by itchyvet
11:27 December 22, 2012 by herr x

I'd have to confess, your remarks hit a cord with me. Though my parents had SIX children, only three were born in Germany, and one was a result of Hitler's Arayan Policies. History shows, many Germans were incredibly poor during those days.( My father was surrendered to an orphanage by his parents because they couldn't feed and clothe their kids, and that's where he grew up, IMHO, not exactly a good environment to gain family feelings or knowledge) However, it was common to have large families and not a thought was given to the issue. Mind you this was in an City environment, not Rural, so the old excuse of many kids make light work simply does not apply.

Though I confess, many times I heard my mother complain of the costs associated with supporting us kids and she couldn't wait until we were old enough to work and contribute to the costs.

I strongly suspect that many people in Germany today, remember those difficult times and have chosen the option of having a confortable life with sufficient funds to sustain that comfort. Personaly, I can't see anything wrong with that.

Maybe the German Govt needs to take a page from the Australian Govt idea, of PAYING young mothers to have children. Here they get paid $3,000 per child and the health care/hospitalisation costs are covered under our medicare system, even child care is subsidised. Despite that, our replacement rate is only 1.1 as well, thus our Govt persues an strong immigration scheme.

I have met and know of many German citizens who have upped stakes and migrated to our shores of late.

Finaly I agree with 16:14 December 22, 2012 by Hillbask's comments that it's an ECONOMIC issue, and clearly, if the Govt wishes to raise the birthrate they need to address the issue form all aspects, after all if Hitler could do it way back, why can't these clowns in charge today do it as well? LOL.

One final comment, as I'm only German born, and an Australian citizen living in Australia, it is normal for me to include historic events encompassing Hitler in discussions, I have heard such practices are frowned upon in Germany, though have never seen anything to substantiate such claims. Maybe I'll be corrected on this by some posters here?
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#44
15:45 December 23, 2012 by nomadams
Canada is a worse place to raise children because of an "abusive adult system"? What does that even mean?!?
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#45
21:33 December 23, 2012 by Heidegger555
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
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#46
21:46 December 23, 2012 by Cocoa Jackson
It is well know by statisticians population growth slows with affluence. One of the key reasons the birth rates in third world countries are high.

Globally the issue of exponential economic growth is damaging the planet, at least Germany is modelling clever behaviour and producing less consumers.
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#47
00:49 December 24, 2012 by bernardpalmer
Excerpt from 'What is the Primary Fundamental Right?'.

"Genetically those on the top of the intellectual food chain, the Anglo-Saxons, the Nords, the Japanese, the Gaul's and the descendents of the Franks, who's name even means 'free', are now all dying out. Because of Socialism they have virtually stopped breeding. Due to government control of the business of education students are now attending school at the age they would normally be having children. Prior to government education most schooling was completed by age 14 and was equivalent to today's education level at age 19-20. After leaving school at 14-15 many would marry around 17-19, supposedly the best age for child birth for the female and for the males the time of their highest sperm counts.

Because Socialist societies are so costly youngsters today cannot afford to have lots of children even if they wanted to. As a select group the Anglo-Saxon fertility rate is probably much less than the stated 1.7 for those females between the breeding ages of 15 to 44. Just for continuation of the genetic line it should be at least 2.15. In Afghanistan where there is no Socialism the fertility rate is 6.75 births per breeding female. In Jerusalem the Ultra Orthodox Hareidi and Hasidic Jews supposedly have a birth rate of around 8 children per family. Natural Selection apparently always favors the prolific breeders probably because its got more to work with.

In 2006 Socialist America both parents have to work to have the same spending power of a husbands wage in 1970, so now they don't have the time or the money or the inclination to make more babies. At this rate most of the Euro-Americans should be almost gone within 150 years and in Europe Saxon Germany leads the depopulation with 1.4 births. It is estimated by 2120 many cities in Socialist Japan will be empty due to their 1.25 and falling fertility rate. "Tokyo is already under 1.0 births", said its governor in April 2007.

Russia the original home of Communism is now losing about one million people each year so unless they give up Socialism all Russians will be gone within 143 years. Communist China with its fertility rate at 1.7 could also eventually disappear due to their one child policy and long education periods for their females. In the western world probably only the Israelis with their 2.5 births per female will apparently survive.

Hong Kong is probably the world's richest country per square meter and prior to the Chinese takeover in 1997 it was the closest politically to the Primary Fundamental Right's Capitalism Democracy, except in education. Interestingly its fertility rate is less than 1. This figure points emphatically to the possibility that prolonged education of females is the decider in the decline of Socialist populations."

http://www.primaryfundamentalright.org/index.php?pageName=pfrWhatIs
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#48
16:12 December 25, 2012 by ExileAdventure
Germany per se isn't the problem: it's GERMANS! :)

As an American married to a German and with two small boys, who's been here close to 4 years, I'd say the country itself is actually a positive place for kids but the people and the culure simply are not. So that, long term, as a parent you just have to wonder how worth it it really is for your kids, to ave the advantages Germany provides, when overall it's such an anti-kid, unfriendly and generally cold, lonely place.

I feel this in the extreme right now for e.g.--one of the few Christmas we spend here. It all feels like a retirement home! I look at my kids and compare their experiences to their cousins' in the US and the UK, or two my own at their age, and I think how lonely and isolated it must be, to be a kid here.

I just never get the feeling that Germans, overall, like kids at all. People seem to miss a fundamental point: liking your own kid doesn't really count. To be a 'kid' person you must like kids in general, all or most kids.

When I work with 20 or 30 something Germans I'm always struck by how little kids factor in with their life plan--and, as others have mentioned, how selfish and 'cheap' a majority of them are. Not charactersitics that ease a life with children!
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#49
00:25 December 27, 2012 by JustJohn
Comment: I am a foreigner here and has been here for close to 2 years. I am going to take an unconventional view on this topic. If Germans do not want to have kids because they have other priorities in life, I say, there is nothing wrong or bad with that. Not having kids doesn't make Germans selfish, they just make a choice to lead lives without kids. Who wants the Germans to have more kids, the German government? For what reason should Germans have many kids, to preserve the German nation?

If the German population is getting too low for their economy, then they should continue getting expatriates to solve that problem. In addition, the German government should loosen their tight laws when it comes to getting immigrants in and to stay in Germany. It seems to me that they just want the country to remain purely populated by German people. If that's is the case, then their reasons for wanting an increased birthrate are misplaced. The world is quickly becoming a global village, where people from different nations are bound to live together and share brilliant ideas, and that trend is here to stay. Germans should soon learn to adapt by being nice to immigrants. Oh, and they should learn more more English.

I don't think spending more money on day cares will increase the birthrate. Germans are not giving birth to more kids because their social structure doesn't promote that. This is not a matter that can be changed by financial support and more day cares. Developing nations have higher birth rates despite the lack of incentives, because their social structure dictates so. On the low birthrate matter, Germans should just chill, and let things progress naturally, continue to support those who have kids.
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#50
04:10 December 28, 2012 by urov
Women who choose careers over having children in their lives end up becoming the MOST MISERABLE women of all.
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#51
16:10 December 28, 2012 by herr x
ExileAdventure hit it right on!!!! totally agree with her!!!!

16:12 December 25, 2012 by ExileAdventure

you just have to wonder how worth it it really is for your kids, to ave the advantages Germany provides, when overall it's such an anti-kid, unfriendly and generally cold, lonely place.

I feel this in the extreme right now for e.g.--one of the few Christmas we spend here. It all feels like a retirement home! I look at my kids and compare their experiences to their cousins' in the US and the UK, or two my own at their age, and I think how lonely and isolated it must be, to be a kid here.

I just never get the feeling that Germans, overall, like kids at all. People seem to miss a fundamental point: liking your own kid doesn't really count. To be a 'kid' person you must like kids in general, all or most kids.
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#52
18:51 December 28, 2012 by goodhund
Germany have to be boots and all absolutely modern and industrial country, which is really important for whole Europe? So, where is 'place' for children? I hope there is 'space' for good thinking people and their children also.
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#53
23:24 December 28, 2012 by ErickDDiaz
Germans are just oppressive with a utopianland. Try raising a child in Los Angeles.
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#54
01:14 December 30, 2012 by Kölner
From many people/s view, children are in the way of their career and making money. They prefer taking a third holiday, buying a second S.U.V. and groveling

to get a raise at work to raising kids. The general tendency is the mostly unspoken opinon that "kids spoil people/s lives", because many believe they keep their parents from being successful at the "rat races" and, in addition, cause expenditure. I had trouble with my neighbours because the kids played and ran around the flat. They seemed to believe children have a switch to turn them off or one to turn down the volume. My kids have been raised not to bother other people unnecessarily, but they had a right to grow up naturally, and that includes making noise. German families are generally loving and caring and put in a lot of effort to meet the children/s needs. The sometimes cold and distant manner (many people of other nations mistake for being "typically German") is the "outsider-mode". If there are kids in a German family, they are almost always raised responsibly by dedicated, decent people. Don/t you worry, our genes will be passed on to make sure there are lots of Germans for you and your offspring to enjoy in the future...
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#55
12:05 December 30, 2012 by colecorbitt
I can't say whether or not Germany is an inhospitable place to raise a family as a married couple. However, I am in Germany because my (German) wife decided she wanted a divorce about a week after our daughter was born, and leaving the US was the only way I could be with her. Germany is an absolute JOKE when it comes to fathers and our rights. I don't understand how lawmakers and judges can sleep at night knowing what they put men whose only desire in life is to be a father and spend time with their children. I don't know why people here wouldn't want to have families, but I can definitely understand why men would be reluctant to become fathers. This country needs to wake up.
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#56
02:43 December 31, 2012 by BCSLAVE
Don't immigrate your German children to Canada....Germans are not welcome there and are in danger really. Run by Canadians of some British ancestry they still believe Germans owe them for two world wars and have no problem forcing Canadian children of Germanic ancestry into their illegal forced human experiments as a sort of collective retribution for those crimes. Politicians call the shots over the opinions of medical experts. Even the disabled have been used to pave the road for the able bodied in illegal experiments that require the administration of lethal injections. What they would not inflict on British children they would willfully do to Germans. I know I was targeted by them and barely escaped their criminal behavior. The honest truth about Canada, its not safe for you because of your race. Just like if you were an Aboriginal.
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#57
07:05 December 31, 2012 by RainerL
My Parensts left Germany in 1969 because it was expensive and difficult to raise Children there. Not many wanted to rent a Place to a Family with 6 Kids either.

My Parents figured that it couldn't be worse if they moved from Hamburg to Australia. I was 15 at the time. I still have very clear memories of my Cildhood in Germany. Cold, grey and depressing life in a Concrete jungle. This is not to say that it is like this all over Germany and there are very nice places where one could live; But that was or seemed more for the middle and upper class of People. It's been 48 years since I lived in Germany. I have two grown ups and never did I have any questions about raising Kids in this wonderous Country.

But I must say that it is not just in germany where the younger Generation of Adults and Kids behave in a very spoilt fashion. It happens here too. They all want to have things yesterday, are often rude, disrespectful. Boy have times changed. I guess the virus from the Geat U.S. of A...... has spread to Europe also. Wecome to the 21 century.
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#58
12:16 December 31, 2012 by prsuresh78
Despite generous child subsidies, tax breaks and parental leave, fewer Germans want to start a family. Is Germany really such an inhospitable place to have kids?

Germany is a perfect place to have children. As an expat living in Germany for close to 6 years with 2 kids, I vote to have children in Germany.

But the question is whether Germans (not expats/immigrants) like to have kids!!! Germans for all above posted reasons is not kid friendly for sure. Whoever with Family+Kids looked out for rented house in Germany will know how difficult it is. In my 1st accomodation, I still remember an old man above my apartment bang the floor with chair whenever my only kid (3 years age) runs in the wooden floor - odd isn't it? how do i control 3 yrs old to stop having fun at 10pm - they are not pets to lock in cages. It's so funny that lonely guy above my apartment complains to police about Kids' menance but the not the family below my apartment who probably get foot vibrations - that answers the problem. Eventually we moved out to another place after a year. I was looking rented houses for my friends too --- I was denied whenever Germans enquire about family with kids. Reasons given informally --- Kids are noisy / scrible walls / furnished apartments might get messy & sometimes i was told weird comment like curtain drapes will be spoiled!!!! come on Germany - do you realize that you killing your own society (not expats) with this mentality. So much importance to furnished object that could be replaced with deposit money than living human beings. Who would prefer in such case to have children in Germany even for Germans who move around for job relocation. Kids are lovely to have and they are part of human cycle. If current trend continues, Germany will be filled with Globalized society but not native Germans. Please do love kids (i mean all kids too) and this comment is for majority of the crowd. I'm pleased & surprised at times when some Germans share their love to other kids in park. There are Kid friendly Germans still out there and giving hope for future Germany to have German families.
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#59
20:36 January 2, 2013 by Mr. E.
I am a US Citizen but have lived in Germany as a child and as an adult for over 23 years. My mother is German, I have many German relatives and I even married a German woman. I have read each comment above about this subject and many of correct, incorrect, or both. I would not say Germany is child unfriendly but rather less tolerant of children but that is not all Germans. The older war generation has carried over some of their parenting "ways", back then adults and children normally did not sit and eat at the same table. I raised a son in Germany and have many cousins, nephews there as well. I raised my son from birth until we left Germany when he was 12. I believe Germany is a great place to raise an infant and young toddler, your child does not have many demands at that age, families visit and eat together regularly, share holidays, etc. However, once your child slowly enters the teen stage Germany offers very little. I believe if my son did not play soccer it would be very difficult for him to do anything. Germany lacks the proper resources for teens unless it will cost you and that is also difficult to find. Open tennis courts, Basketball hoops, Youth Centers, Youth activities, etc. that are open to the public do not exist. Swimming pools do exist but are crowded and are used by all ages. Germany would do better with young children if they fostered more comraderie with building less bars, have less churches, and construc fewer swimming pools. If the Country wants to invest more in the German youth they also need to make things more afforadable, more accessible, and market what the teens say they are missing. Little children can be satisfied with all the zoos and swimming pools etc. but when they have a mind of their own it is catastrophic. In addition, I agree with those who mentioned it is all economics, Germans look at the overall cost of a child long-term, both parents NEED to work to afford a basic lifestyle and after school programs for younger children just do not exist. Mothers want to stay home once their child is born but can not afford it regardless of the incentives the country offers. One cannot help but think that most young German couples have to become more global in competing for jobs and are also witnessing the German values slowly disappearing with the influx of turks, russians, africans, and muslims. More and more younger Germans want to leave Germany and settle elsewhere but in the meantime must go to school and try to land a job abroad to get out. As a teen in Germany it is expensive for the common things we take for granted in the USA (i.e. drivers license, fuel costs, vehicle, entry fees to almost anything etc.). The most affordable to place for teens to hang out together will end up most likely be in a bar or hanging out somewhere out of sight drinking.
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#60
09:16 January 4, 2013 by Tharwat
YES, YES, Yes it is and this is an out cry. I come from a third world country, stated in the middle east where everything is imported from the rest of the world. I moved here with my German family, my wife and two kids under the age of three. To sum it up, Germany has No kindergartens, but if they do, they always complain there are not enough workers to maintain the increasing number of children! and therefore there is not a place to get them in even if you are welling to pay more, just because i want them to meet other kids.

Germany has no stable weather, the parks here are not always a good idea. I would therefore expect to have shopping malls, closed shopping malls, you know the ones with controlled environment - security personel and a proper entertainment place for kids. and please dont mentions the existing ones, KAUFLANd is not a shopping MALLLLLLL... have you ever been to DUBAI !!!
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#61
05:52 January 5, 2013 by Swag2TZ
After reading all these comments, I was so bummed out, I got me a glass with ice cubes and poured me a stiff drink. Crown Royal w/ a slice of lemon. Now I feel better. Growing up in Germany as a child (1960s - 1974) it was quite nice. Lots of fond memories.
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#62
06:46 January 5, 2013 by RaineTanner
Maybe folks just don't want to have kids? Call it selfish, call it whatever you want, but I would rather folks who didn't want kids to not have them.
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#63
16:42 January 7, 2013 by diskojade
I'd rather raise a family in Germany than in the UK. At least the Germans respect their elders and don't commit knife crimes because someone doesn't "fit in". I'd feel a lot safer letting my children walk to the shops on their own in the middle of the day without the immediate danger of some pervert snatching them. This isn't the 1940's, the German citizens aren't a sinister race of people, but they are career driven.

What concerns me is that by Germany being so career driven and not sacrificing anything to start a family, is that they are become more and more like the UK: a country where family means almost nothing, and spending time with them is so scarce it's barely in existence, a nation where working on a Sunday is the norm, and going shopping on Boxing Day is beyond acceptable- infact it's expected.
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#64
04:40 January 14, 2013 by munir akhtar
In my openion the simple solution is

1. All couples living with undeclared marrige be registered under the law. The figure 1.39 relates to declared and registered marriages where as about 20% families are unregistered. They remain afraid of paying back is they separate.

2. Set mind of young lot to marry immegrants. Asians are good in producing siblings and also can handle them well. On the other hand they can live on less wages comparing to local individuals.
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#65
12:23 January 18, 2013 by Sastry.M
Deutschland gab der Welt Kindergaerten. Ist Deutschland Umweltfreundlich aber Kinderfeindlich geworden? Es lebe wohl ein Kindervoll heiliges Deutschland!

-Von einem Inder der liebt Deutschen Wuenderkinder!
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#66
22:06 January 23, 2013 by Eliammo
I live in Germany already for 4 years and coming also from a poor country, I think Germany is the best option for my child to grow up. I would love to have more kids, I want to have more kids, but we just can not afford a second child, if only one of us is working. Germany is expensive and I dont think Germans are selfish. AS someone commented above, Germans like quality and they are worried about the future and everything they do its planned. I dont see anything wrong with that. They will have children if they can give their children a good education and if they can save enough money to help their children in the future. Me as a non EUR citizen, have also the same worries, specially If I end up somewhere else. TODAY I do wanna stay in Germany, get a job here and have more childrens and retire here! But If me and my husband will be able to afford that in the future, thats another question.

Germans do not like so much noise, and they are not so friendly with children. However, where I do live now (in the country side) I have to confess that my neighbors have proved me wrong. They are all friendly with my son, always offering help and are all very understanding (about all the noise my baby boy makes). Everywhere I go here in the neighborhood they is a elder that will stop and me and talk to me or with my baby boy and play with him and smile to him.

In the grippe, my son just loves his teachers so much that he hugs and kisses her and tells me bye when I leave.

Although krippe is a huge problem right now in Germany, I sill see that the new upcoming teachers are not well prepared as the older ones. And that worries me a lot.

I am also worried about extra activities that i want to make with my baby boy. They are all paid and based in our income, they are expensive.

I wanna work, I am looking for jobs, but I have already experienced a reluctance with companies when they find out I have a child. If I could afford, I would stay t home taking care of my family. But since I can not, it has been a challenge for me to keep up working full time, (actually 30 hours a week) becuase the krippes here are not flexible, and taking care of the house and of my child.

As I said, I do wanna have more children, I just dont see how I will be able to handle all of that since my Husband needs to work the 40 hours in order to pay our bills.
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#67
15:56 January 28, 2013 by LecteurX
@ BernardPalmer #47 - the top of the intellectual what???

What a ridiculous, rambling, misleading and uninformed comment. Congrats, really.

Even if we assume that you know what you're talking about when discussing "socialism" in your pointless diatribe, do you think that:

a. 2006 USA is in any way more "socialist" than 1970s America, after 30 years of Reaganism and neo-liberal/monetarist policies? You're having a laugh.

b. Present-day Russia (13 live births per 1,000 inhabitants per year) is somehow more "socialist" than 1961 Soviet Russia (24 live births / 1,000 inhabitants) or 1985 Soviet Russia (18 births / 1,000)?

c. The Hareidi and Hassidic Jews of Jerusalem don't get lots of state handouts in order to live according to their "lifestyle"? Ask the average Israeli taxpayer about what they think of these large religious families who don't work at all and live on welfare... Isn't that exactly what the abhorred "socialism" is about?

Well, I see that every commenter ignored your "interesting input" so far. There must be a reason to this. But I'm afraid that if there is any such thing as an "intellectual food chain", you're nowhere near the top of it...
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#68
08:32 January 31, 2013 by DrWho
Germany is a wonderful place to raise a family and to live in general. I now live in the USA and would give anything to be able to return to Germany. All the Germans I knew were warm and caring people. Once you became friends, not like the loose American way of calling everyone that, you knew you had someone you could count on. My kids were safe, well educated in the local schools, and had great friends who cared for one another.

Maybe there are different areas of Germany that differ, but my experiences in BW and Bavaria were wonderful. My entire family misses the wonderful people we were blessed to know during our time there.
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#69
17:25 February 2, 2013 by Opeth_fan
The only problem is that the state does not like familys. They can control people easier if they are split and reliant on benifits.
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#70
08:26 February 6, 2013 by soshrib
When one bemoans the falling childbirth rates, in *nay* country*, usually the culprits for this are considered to be the "career minded" women. Selfish, as one user was claiming?? Hardly. Think about it, if I spent 20 years of my life getting good education and doing really well. Got a good job that I also *enjoy* doing, then taking a 14 month parental leave to raise a child is not that attractive to me. Because whereas I love my child, I also love my work. The real reason for falling birthrates in Germany is not the selfish population or the lack of financial incentive from the government, no. The real reason is outrageously inadequate support network. My son was born in Dec 2012. We have registered for a place -- a "platzsharing" place for 3 days a week for up to 5 hours!!! -- since 3 months before he was born. I want to go back to work when he is 8 months old, however, so far we have been on a VERY long waiting list!!!!

Now, the Elterngeld I will receive caps at a maximum of 1800 euros a month. If my net, take home salary before getting pregnant was 4500 euros, I DO NOT have a financial incentive to stay at home for 14 months, or even become a full time stay-at-home mother. And the question is, why should I? Because I am just as well at my job as a CRM consultant.

If Germany seriously wants to change the status quo, then just doling out money is not going to convince all the women to have more children. I am pretty sure there are hundreds of thousand women like me who do not need this kind of support. What we do need is more kinderkrippe and kindergarten where we can leave our young ones when we go back to work.

In that sense, yes, I do believe GErmany is not exactly a "friendly" place to raise a child, especially for women, since they are considered the designated child care providers and that simply is no longer true for each and every woman. Women do want more from life than just raise a family and there is nothing wrong with that.
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