February 9, 2012
Published: 7 Sep 10 11:39 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/opinion/20100907-29659.html
Germans must forget the hysteria surrounding Thilo Sarrazin and take an honest look at the integration of immigrants into their society, argues Roger Boyes, the Berlin correspondent for the British daily The Times.
The Local (news@thelocal.de)
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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Your comments about this article:
I mean, its nothing new, we knew and could see on the street before that turks cause a lot of problems but no one did really say something about it and if he did, the politician did not react to it.
Read the book of the berlin judge Heisig. She said a lot of these things already, and also did prove it with COURTFACTS! Still, nobody cared. Ubercorrekt Merkle is always like "yeah... i know... but its not that bad so let's talk about it next month..."
Sarrazin put this topic into the spotlight. He is the reason why YOU wrote this articel about this topic. So like him or not, he is the reason why politics must act now.
When viewed as a whole, it is clear these communities both face and create problems disproportionate to their numbers. They are marginalized, and exhibit all the dysfunctions and experience the disadvantages of marginalized groups everywhere.
No group should be made a scapegoat for all of society's ills. Nor, however, should fear of this lead us to ignore legitimate problems.
Well meaning nonsense as this article may be, it is in fact pernicious. By enforcing a rigid adherence to obviously outmoded views of social function and dysfunction, as well as to an unrealistic and inherently iniquitous code of political correctness, you ensure that reasonable and well meaning people have no forum in which they can discuss and deal with obvious and growing problems (such as sequestering children and preventing them from attending school, which I take hardly as flippantly as you do) what you are ultimately doing is ensuring that the discourse related to this issue is tended to and dominated by the fringe right.
This doesn't discredit the problems people have with unassimmilated immigrants, rather, it actually lends credibility to the ugly elements of the right. Tar enough normal people, often enough, with the Nazi brush and don't be surprised if they start to look in that direction with a little less disdain.
Because your ideas and thinking have dominated in the past. Your tolerance and bridge building does not work, it just encourages abuses and parallelism. Don't tell Germans that we are the ones who must adapt to immigrants, it is THEY who must adapt to our ways, or go elsewhere.
And let me finish by saying how insulting it is to have this woolly nonsense from a UK citizen when the UK is the only EU country to install sharia law courts into legal operation, as your employing paper reported back in 2008. And this directly following the 7/7/2005 bombings by Islamic inspired terrorists. Talk about hysterical, hysterical appeasement that is!
Do you want Germany to learn how to prostrate itself before radical Islam like your people and governments do? Forget it.
I don't know what the rules are about home-schooling or private-schooling in Germany. In the USA, home-schooling is OK, so long as the students can pass standardized tests that are done with all students. There are examples (the Koresh [Vernon Howell] / Branch Davidians) where home-schooling clearly was a springboard to teach social pathology. I am not sure that you can avoid that without significantly curbing religious freedom. Social pathology can be ingrained beyond daytime-schooling, anyhow.
There is probably a true Xenophobia about naturalizing non-Germans. There is concern that it will alter the German state in some significant way. Germans just have to arrive at some just mechanism and live with whatever change it brings.
I agree. There's nothing quite so intolerable as tolerance and bridge-building. Intolerance and bridge-detonation are the only hope for the future. We must become as intolerant as the Muslims we despise in order to guarantee an endless cycle of hate-fueled religious and cultural wars for centuries to come.
@Prufrock2010: thx for that. your comment made my day.
Instead, in his disputed book Sarrazin talks about a steadily growing part of members of a specific migrant population in Germany, which refuses to integrate into the society they chose to ?"migrate?" to for classical economic reasons. The long term problem for the host society is that this group continues to ?"celebrate?" a lifestyle which lead to the ?"barren economies?" they escaped from in the first place: Religious bigotry, animosity to education and rejection of modernity.
This has become a threat to the welfare of the German society, not only because it draws an ever bigger portion of Germany's solidarity funding, but mainly because the migrating group - when it stays in a group - is in a very antagonistic way ethnically and culturally homogeneous, while at the same time remaining in hostile toward the norms of the German mainstream culture and its secular society; and because this hostile group is meanwhile so large that it forms a ?"parallel society?", hardly ?"penetrateable?" from the outside.
Purposely I am not using the term ?"immigrants?" for these migrants, because the prefix ?"im?" implies that nonnative individuals migrate into the society of another people with the latter's consent, in order to live with them and settle on their territory for good and ?-this is very important ?- TO BECOME ONE DAY A LOYAL PART OF THIS SOCIETY they chose to migrate into.
This implies of course that these newcomers absorb the cultural norms, values, beliefs, and behavior patterns of the "host" society … otherwise a tight and dense populated country, as Germany is, becomes in turn extraordinarily ?'stressed?', which might lead one day to cultural clashes a la Ireland, Bosnia or Kosovo.
This is a real danger . . . and not superficial demagogy. I believe that Thilo Sarrazin talks about this risk. He is like an uncomfortable but necessary prophet, who warns not to continue a dead-end pass which, what he clearly sees, is leading into the abyss.
It?'s up to the politicians now to draw political consequences from Sarrazin?'s provocative warnings (and from his public success) . . . and do so in accordance with the German constitution and its democratic values
However, the truth is out there and people with analytycal minds will easily find the connections. Seeing things in black and white is the most easy way to identify if soemone has a mental disease or not. There is a dangerous tendency in GErmany as if they know everything about Turkey through an unrepresantative sample.
About islam phobia , I think islamphobia can only be tackled by understanding the differences in islam too. there is no one interpretation of it. From China shin-jian? to Bosnia f you can not put 1.5 billion people in one basket.
we should not to forget what happened in balkans in the name of relligion in 90's. worst in number of innocent people killed in the name of religious hate recently.
In the end, this article lacks a lot of facts. Anyone could write that , I am sorry.
Some facts statistics?I don't know something that people don't know?
Finally, hairdressers and kebap shop owners is the image of the turkish immigrants in germany as it was also presented in this article. That is why germany loose educated potential migrants from Turkey or never really can attract the brilliant youth in Turkey since they wisely choose to go anglophone countries unfortunate for Turkey.
I'm English and can freely walk down the street without anybody knowing I'm an immigrant.
The first poster made the comment that "Turks" caused a lot of problems, and yet the headline on the Local yesterday was the jailing of the two WHITE GERMAN teenage scumbags who beat that guy to death.
At the end of the day immigrants do the jobs the rest of you don't want to do. That's why the wave of Turkish people cmae to Germany in the first place, and why Indians and West Indians came to England after the war.
Try to remember, too, that the actions of our countries over the last couple of centuries, empire-building into defenceless third world nations has directly led to the nature of the relationships we have today with foreigners.
And if you can't understand that last point none of you have a right to an opinion on this subject.
Really? I keep seeing these blanket statements of how a lack of integration is causing problems but I still haven't seen any problems. Where are they? Why are unintegrated immigrants causing more problems than unintegrated neo-nazis, hippies, bikers, artists or any other group who just happen to want to live slightly differently to the 'integrated' variety of german? Why is this such a threat to truth, justice and the german way of life?
Even this article takes the integration 'problem' as a given and argues that sarrazin's emphasis is hysteria. I'll go further and claim that the entire integration issue, like the emporer's new clothes, is simply imagination. "It must exist or why would everybody be talking about it, they can't all be wrong. Can they?" Maybe they can.
I have come to realize that most people respect the truth, even if does not benefit them personally. It's the negative rhetoric they turn against. And so, those who are really interested in change just have to present their message in a non-aggressive way. The main idea is to appeal to the MAJORITY of people.
God, I hope that all aspiring leaders soon realize this.
Remember that in every society, it is the arrivals who must adapt to their new homeland, not the other way around.
If Germans moved to Peru, Mongolia, Turkey etc, they could not expect the country to adapt just because they have chosen to live there.
Ironically many immigration source countries have appallingly racist policies. Thousands of Germans, Italians, Brits and some Americans have retired to India, mostly near Goa. But the only residence permit they can get is a six-month holiday visa.
Now the Delhi government has made it worse by ending back-to-back visas. Applicants must spend at least eight weeks outside India before being granted a fresh six-month stay. And these are people who have legally bought homes there.
Imagine if Germany treated foreigners that way.
Rodger is right that the discussion should get past the hysteria and focus on integration and problems of and about immigrants. So far there has seen so much discussion about what to do with Sarrazin. His book and other remarks have made it impossible for him to keep his position at The Bundesbank and he has acknowledged that fact. Sigmar Gabriel explained , last night on ZDF, exactly why the SPD needs to expel him. It's funny how most of the politicians with serious reservations about that are either with the CDU CSU or FDP.
Somebody here posted an opinion that there is no problem with or for immigrants. That's pretty funny... and "Logic Guy", what planet do you live on? I'd like to come and join you.
They need to integrate or they should be kicked out.
very good points...
the most do not want to integrate in the western societies...
they give a sh*t on the system in the western civilized word.
they come like the gov teaches them to come:
read newspapers online in english from islamic countries and you can find ads and other promoting articles about immigration to western countries for free.
they should there breed as crazy (10 times more than non-muslims) and so take the countries from within and peaceful.
also they geet this immigration for FREE (free plane, free house, mostly fianced by rich sheiks or other rich muslims).
the target: NON_immigration and overtaking the country with sharia law and taking everything what the country and the system has to offer (welfare - in germany: sozialgilfe/arbeitslosengeld).
there exists a nice video on islam - plans how to take european countries within the next 60-100 years: search for it.
there are only 2 ways: 1. deportaton of them or 2: they stay inside and islam will rule europe because of much higher demographic breeding rate.
sarrazin should found a party, he would be get much more votes than fdp and the other small parties together,,,like statistics already showed.
nuff said...
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.
Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that "believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."
Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."
Qur'an (3:10) - "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire." Those who do not believe in Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell (also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).
Qur'an (7:44) - "The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers" Muslims in heaven will amuse themselves by looking down on non-Muslims in Hell and mocking them while they are being tortured (see 22:19-22.
Qur'an (1:5-7) - "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray" This is a prayer that Muslims are supposed to repeat each day. "Those who earn Thine anger" specifically refers to Jews and "those who go astray" refers to Christians (see Bukhari (12:749)).
There are verses that contradict the above however the peaceful friendship verses were written when Mohammed had few followers and when he had many follower the verses switched to violence. The previous verses were abrogated by the later verses. If verses contradict each other that should be a big question as to the validity of such a faith.
Keith Davies
Executive Director Walid Shoebat Foundation
Really? If a bunch of foreign vagrants moved into my home without an invitation and took over my house, ate my food, used my kitchen, my car, my furniture, TV, etc., and then openly despised my way of life while demanding that I provide them with money, health care, etc., I assure you that neither integration nor acceptance would be at the top of the list of possible solutions I would consider!
In the centuries preceding, Rome was overrun with illegal immigrants:
Visigoths, Franks, Anglos, Saxons, Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Lombards
and Vandals. They first assimilated, many working as servants, but soon came so fast they did not learn the Latin language.
Though militarily superior and marching on advanced road systems, the
highly trained Roman Legions were strained fighting conflicts
worldwide, and eventually troops had to be brought home from the
frontiers, such a Britain. Attila the Hun committed terrorist attacks, wiping out whole cities.
Rome had a trade deficit, having outsourced its grain production to
North Africa, and when the Vandals captured that area, Rome did not
have the resources to retaliate.
"Bread and the Circus!" Citizens of Rome were kept distracted with
violent entertainment in the Coliseum and Circus Maximus, living on
welfare and free bread.
One Roman commented: "Those who live at the expense of the public funds are more numerous than those who provide them." Tax collectors were "more terrible than the enemy." Rome was crippled by huge government bureaucracies and enormous public debt.
A history of court favoritism, infidelity, exposure of unwanted infants, perverted bathhouses, and sexual immorality led 5th-Century historian Salvian to write:
"O Roman people be ashamed...Let nobody think otherwise, the vices of
our bad lives have alone conquered us."
You could not be more distant from the truth, and it is indeed you who has less right to an opinion.
Look at crime statistics in Sweden to address another part of your material.
The importation of labor from the less developed world has nothing to do with an unwillingness to do the work, rather an unwillingness to do the work for a substandard wage. The solution to this was to import labor with lower demands. It is a self-destructive policy, which encourages a growing socio-economic gap. We do not need a return to a Dickensian world.
I dare you to look at crime stats and examine violent offenses vs name.
And speak for yourself about the "actions" of nations over the centuries, it is your now aimless and misguided old island that raped and pillaged 40% of the world and has never answered for a single crime, not anyone else. Even the Americans have answered to their past more than you robbers.
Perhaps Sarrazin should indeed start a party, he's one of the few in Germany who will publicly point out the growing demographic catastrophe. Of course, the the bleeding heart left and EU-centric thought controllers will slander him with "Nazi" insults, the rebuttal of the weak and worthless.
The answer is very simple. Simply stop welfare payments to them, and they will voluntarily leave to search for handouts elsewhere!
Brillant !!! I dont know why we havent done this already,its all so simple....
This is the kind of blind and unrealistic thinking that has made "mush-for-brains" a synonym for "liberal." The Muslim infiltrators have repeatedly stated, both publicly and privately, that they hate and despise western civilization and everything that it stands for. They have no desire or intention to "integrate." They boast of their plans to infiltrate, take over the weak-minded western governments, and eventually wipe out western civilization, kill all unbelievers and impose a primitive and barbaric Muslim empire on the western world.
With liberals helping them, they will succeed.
Very well put.I will never understand why liberals push this nonsence.
In Germanys case, they haven't any colonies. Their problems began with them bowing to corporate pressure to import cheap labor and keep down labor costs.......hasn't worked very well has it. The corporations pocket the profits and society is stuck with the bill.
@lcarusty
White supremacists only make up a small fraction of the white population. There may be more of them in total, but that's only because whites make up the vast majority of the European and American populations (about 90% combined). However, out here in California, racism is far more prevalent in black, Mexican and Asian households, especially racism against one another, because they largely aren't held to the same standards of political correctness. In the inner cities, blacks and Mexicans are practically at war, and Asians despise the whole lot of them. It's odd, because Los Angeles specifically is often referred to as a "melting pot", as if all the different races mix together, and that's true to a small extent, but more often than not the separate races form their own neighborhoods and enclaves and keep to themselves. White neighborhoods are just like they sound, mostly white. Same for black neighborhoods, Mexican neighborhoods, Asian neighborhoods, Jewish neighborhoods, etc... That's just reality.
That's what immigrants used to do, until the PC liberals thought of a better way!
I sent the link of this discussion to my friends around the US.
The part that I think hits the nail on the head is repeated here:
The long term problem for the host society is that this group continues to "celebrate" a lifestyle which lead to the "barren economies" they escaped from in the first place: Religious bigotry, animosity to education and rejection of modernity.
Bravo Maurice45 - excellent argument!
Keep it up. Us Americans are looking to you for solutions - believe it or not!
Though I must point out that I agree on the class of immigrants that should be allowed to enter any country, I don't agree with your insinuating - Immigrants are the problem- when in fact the entire society is the problem. I have said in a previous post, this issue needs to be tackled without race, a lazy person is lazy don't matter the cultural background, or skin color. You need the same rules for everyone, not just immigrants, or you will be labeled as a racist.
Nice bit of ethnic slander, old horse, something similar *mutatis mutandis* directed against Muslims/Turks might find you brought on on 'incitement to racial hatred' in the UK.
As to the point of the article, the real question is why? Why does Germany have to remake itself demographically? Its unemployment is already high, there is no need for more foreign workers. What there is a need for is efforts to increase the ethnic German birthrate. Kindergeld for the natives, more flexible working hours. More maternity leave. Such measures have been proven effective in other countries. Germany should try it.
Biology matters, Germans are a successful people in large part because of their genetic heritage. Time to take positive measures to preserve and promote that heritage.
you also must be careful of the term "genetic heritage" in germany because it is a myth. Germany was a federation of german *speaking* states with relatively little in common genetically or even culturally. Genetically, germans are frequently closer to the people just on the other side of the boarder than they are to the other side of the country