May 17, 2012
Published: 27 Nov 09 12:05 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/opinion/20091127-23563.html
The German government’s newly proposed “integration contract” for immigrants could be a step forward – but only if its a two-way commitment, argues Der Tagesspiegel’s Jost Müller-Neuhof.
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Your comments about this article:
What an interesting way of thinking about integration. The Tuks complaint and say: "Germany must do more for integration". More than what I have seen? Almost free language course? Hard to imagine. The offices of the ARGE are full of Turks and other immigrants. Do they demand more support? What do they want? The author of the article must have a very peculiar way of thinking if he sees Germany as doing too little for immigrants.
It seems as if Turks can only accept an "integration" where the host country grants them all freedoms and support, while they get to refuse speaking German, and accuse Germans of being racist, fat and stinky, creating their isolation centers not because they feel rejected but because they reject Germans.
The contract seems a good idea, but who will monitor the compliance of the terms? And what will the penalties be for not compyling?
Note: Before anybody accuses me of being a racist, islamophobe or neonazi, just for the record, I marched againts Pro-Köln and its anti-mosque initiative. I wonder how many Turks will march on CSD or for gay rights.
You even stated: as if Turks can only accept an "integration" where the host country grants them all freedoms and support, while they get to refuse speaking German, and accuse Germans of being racist, fat and stinky, creating their isolation centers not because they feel rejected but because they reject Germans..
Can you look in the Toytown FORUM who are talking that to German???(as Im following the thread there) no TURKS there it's all british who hate so much Germans and use this words many times ( racist, fat and stinky,) i never heard that from a Turk.So stop opening your fouly mouth.You just try to cover up here.
Simple rules like:
1. Any body who wants to settle or work here, must pass the language with in a specific time frame (say 1 or 2 years). Failing to do so should result in non extension of the stay permit. It sounds 'forcing', but it's required.
2. Both parents should pass Integration programm (and German language), with in say 2 years, in order to get the child care benifits(Kindergeld).
some individuals may not require German language skills to live and work here! But the country needs their residents (germans and non-germans) to speak German language.
Let's not blame Germans too much. Instead let's use that energy in learning their language. And the time will certainly come when Germans will (have to) change their mind set.
But the plain truth is that he gave up his citizenship for a reason. He wanted to be a German, and so he is a German. If living as a German is hopeless and just not practical....Turkey would readily accept him back. My guess is that they want the best of both lands....which doesn't exist. So living in an imaginary land is not an option. Either be Turk or be German.....but don't try to be both.
Not only am I an immigrant but I have almost always been one. And I pay my taxes. Always have. So no one can tell me to shut up. Enough that their intolerance restricts our equal access to legal rights. I have marched against islamphobia and have nothing against any race or nationality. I have enough friends of different backgrounds that can vouch for that. I believe in the right to legal global immigration and noone should be "send" back. But to be part of country is to accept the laws and values of the land above one's particular ones. Not to be convinced of them. Simply to accept them as a the frame for the new social order chosen.
If you know africa very well, you´ll know that we´re open,tolerant,friendly, are happy fun-loving people..infact we love white people:-) so I believe brothers & sisters here ´ll know you´re just commenting rubbishg because of the hate and racism inside you. Biogots?? who is biogot? you are biogot! don´t you see? you can´t even recognise that! just because you´re white doesn´t make you more intelligent than blacks or turks...you should ask your intelligent mates, enterprenuers and politicians about that. "they know better" proberbly you never left your small town/village before coming to germany not to talk visiting africa:-) look!! you´re envious of us because germans treat all of us equally, and the multiculturism is really paying off here as well. you´re such a digrace with your bigotry.
My friend, go back to your country if you don´t like it here & stop preaching hate. We love the germans for their honesty & unbaised attitude towards foreigners..we´ll do everything to give something back & pay our taxes regulraly...our children are germans and ´ll continue to make this great country proud. look at the football-team & you´ll see what I´m talking about. God bless germany & God blees the germans.
I'm in the last bits of my Einbürgerung. The language test wasn't hard, it's not nearly as bad as many Germans I've spoken too have made it out to be. It has only to do with understanding and fucntioning (quite basically) in the language. There are no grammatical questions and even the writing portion tells you outright in the instructions what they are looking to see when grading. The Einbürgerungstest itself is a bit one-sided (western influenced, why ask about the first west german chancelor and not the first eastern one too?), but I see the point. They make it as easy as it could possibly be. The American test is far-far more difficult by comparison.
The idea of a contract is a good one but would probably only amount to some sort of ceremonial act rather than a monitored and enforced set of rules. Germany isn't racist per say, but they have their own way of going about things that most any foreigner has to adapt to (when it come sto tax laws, opening a business, working rights, etc.) No one is obligated to assimilate to anyone else's religious views or personal opinions. There is also "Meinungsfreiheit which allows us to either agree or disagree upon the beliefs and lifestyles of others as we choose to so long as it doesn't cause anyone harm or humiliation. You can be an out gay, a conservative Muslim, an athiest and so on and have the same basic rights as anyone else. That is the beauty of the German system. Often times that part gets blurred out by one person talking about another, but the bigger picture remains the same.
1. "If you know africa very well, you´ll know that we´re open,tolerant,friendly, are happy fun-loving people"
Could you point in this map where is your openness, tolerance and friendliness?
http://www.ilga.org/map/LGBTI_rights.jpg
2. "even the turks you´re talking about pay more taxes that any of your generation could ever try to...
>>>how could you possibly know that?
3. "you´re the racists here"; "germans are very ok..the british and americans are worse "especialy the british""
>>> I never made this about race, but you can't seem to be able to get of the issue, which makes me wonder, along with your comments, who the racist is. "the british and americans are WORSE"? Are there no black people there? Or are they also racist?
4. "people like you should get out"... "My friend, go back to your country if you don´t like it here"
>>>your comment speaks by itself about yourself ("we´re open,tolerant,friendly, are happy fun-loving people").. really? What are my options if I don't want to get out? Sudan-style sharia law solution? Uganda's crimininalization of gays? Rwanda genocide....? How do you know I did not escape from there?
Just because I said I was white...
a. you turn my comments into racial ones?
b. I cannot be African?
Look at yourself, buddy, and think before you write.
Perhaps we Anglophones should all start pretending we are Turkish. Then perfect German would apparently be required of us, with which most of us would be happy to oblige. Seriously, although most Germans are welcoming of and tolerant towards foreigners, there is a lot of selective racism about and the intricate Nationalsport of 'Gute Ausländer/Schlechte Ausländer' should no longer be played.
I can see that you remain an ignorant about the issues at hand (and many others that you manage to slip in in an argument that has nothing to do with your statements).
Let's see... You want me to go to..
Tanzania -
sex acts between men are illegal, and carry a penalty of Life imprisonment (Penal Code Act 1945 -revised 1998- § 154)
Kenya -
Sections 162 to 165 of the Kenyan Penal Code criminalize homosexual behaviour and attempted homosexual behaviour between men. The penalty is 5 to 14 years' imprisonment.
Ghana -
gay sex is illegal (Criminal Code 1960- Chapter 6, Sexual Offences Article 105)
Nigeria -
There is a legislation pending to constitutionally ban all forms of same-sex unions (with hefty penalties for offenders). In areas under Sharia I would face capital punishment.
"you´ll see the africa that loves you and tolerate you"... Really? You call that tolerance??? Thank you for the travel offer!!!
On the other hand... You chose to ignore my reference to the map, and you have ignored my questions about homopohobia, so I'll ask you directly before I waste more time with you:
1. What do you think of gay people?
2. Do you think homosexuality is normal and natural?
3. Do you believe that "God" create gays and gave us our sexual orientation as part of us?
4. Do you think homosexuality and its practice among adults should be legal and protected?
5. What do you think of Uganda's bill to criminilaze homosexuality, even with the death penalts?
6. Do you think we are normal, and as normal people we have the right to get married to the people we love regardless of other people's religious ideas?
Stop repeating your mantras "you are a bigot" and "you are a racist" mantra.. it's getting old, used and ridiculous. Stop being a coward and address the original issue: gay rights and immigrants. If you cannot be honest and brave enough to be oepn about your real feelings and thoughts about gays, how can anybody in this forum take you seriously?
I´m not inviting you but I recommend every european to visit africa at least once in his or her life time. If you know you´re not racist...visit it, make friends, mix with africans..you would see that we have more time for family,capitalism,football, sex & parties than hate or having problems with gays. You see, sharia law only operates in some states in the northern part of Nigeria..since you don´t know much or rather- only interested in the negative info about Africa and it´s people, you won´t know how big Nigeria is. It´s a big country of 160million people,36 states, christian south & muslim north. Lagos,my state of origin is located in the more christian south..it´s got 15million residents so you can be sure that at least 10million people don´t care if you´re gay or not "that´s just for Lagos"not to mention the capital & other major cities. now...as for me, although I´m a very strong christian, my closest mate is gay. I see sexual choice as a fundamental human right, & I had a boyfriend when I was in boarding school myself:-) I had 3 room mates on campus.. 2 lesbians & my best friend. tell me my friend, how can I have a problem with you for being gay? apart from the fact that I grew up here, I´ve been married to a German for 7years & my wife´s very good friend is also gay. Frank I´ll write a book if I answer all your questions but once again, you views about us are wrong. You only think you know all but you don´t know anything. I swear that´s the main problem we have with each other. you´re ignorant and mis-informed.
Frank, I get your point......
As an immigrant and a gay person, I too experienced similar prejudice during the intergration course in Germany. The majority of my classmates were from Turkey, a couple of them from Africa, Russians and Eastern Europeans. I had no problems with them being in the class, but what got on my tits is 'yes' they are so narrow minded and intolerance of the gays.
These people had been living in Germany for a long long time and they were there by force and had no intention of learning let alone wanting to intergrate into the mainstream. They spoke their own language in class and bad-mouthing about the teacher (my teacher could speak several languages) and my poor teacher was always at logger heads with them and she was so scared to say anything negative for fears of being branded a racist.
Let me say this, you cannot really intergrate Islam and Christianity together, the two are like chalk and chesse. But something has got to be done.
Germanlover
It´s a pity that some brothers/sisters here don´t know how much many of us apreciate a world of peace,unlimited tolerance, & freedom in all aspects of life. That we rather apreciate when we can understand each other & see that what joins us..is much greater than what divides us as a people. We can´t generalise because the view of a few does not reflect the views of all. Once again, I say that I recommend all westerners to visit Africa atleast once in their lifetime. my people, africa is home for all of all us no matter what your religion is, if you´re gay or straight, white,black or brown. If you sense discrimination in one country, try Lagos, Nigeria:-)nothing dey hapen:-) cheers...
Ungrateful you call us, who can be greatful when you pay tax like every other working German citizen in this country and you have no say on how it should be spent? Tell me more about democracy.
One more thind Alorik, every human being is inherently gullible and stupid you incuded.
Foreigners are here to stay (call us a necessary nuisance if you wish) and with a society that is aging and the locals do not feel that they can get childern due to other personal reasons, then you ought to think of we immigrants who are apparently giving birth to 7 children as a bitter pill that will sustain you and people of like minds.
Integration is a lost battle, once you started calling immigrants "Gastarbeiter" that was the end of the race period.
The day Africans , Asians will start making immigration contracts with all those 'expats' clamouring to go there is the day you will realise how ridiculous you all sound.
It's rude that yall are assuming all the Turks are unthankful and hateful against Germany.
I have so many friends who have a non-german background, got to be raised in Germany and who feel home nowhere but in Germany now.Why would we live here, if we would not be comfortable?
But on the other side, immigrants(doesn't matter where they from) who came to Germany and now are animadverting shall just leave. That's just disrespectful after all the education and future they provide you.