Religious couple fined for home schooling their children

Good. Put your kids in school screwballs.

Is it just me, or are these stories about fundamentalist Christians becoming more frequent? Did the age of enlightenment ever happen?

If they eventually do have to go to jail, who's going to be there to teach their kids? I don't think the parents have thought this through.

God will be able to teach the kids through divine intervention. That's what he wants.

"Go forth and multiply", that's what they do.

Not a freedom of religion group, are we? I'm wondering if you all have even read the full article. It seems that they were doing a good job teaching their kids and that the religious aspect was secondary to their curriculum. They may be religious nutters, and as I'm a public school SCIENCE teacher myself, I don't always support home schooling, but seriously... If they're doing a good job, let them be!

At least it is illegal in Germany and they get punished for it.

I'm not a religious nutter, but if I could do it legally, I'd try to teach my future children through primary school, at least. Or I'd at least seriously consider it.

If taken seriously by the teaching parent, their one-on-one attention could certainly provide a better, more flexible basis for education than overflowing classrooms, bullying schoolmates and overwhelmed teachers might.

I'm a little saddened that homeschooling is so rigidly dismissed as an option in Germany. A system of regular checks and testing to see if homeschooled kids can keep up with public schooled ones.. wouldn't that suffice as a requirement to grant such privileges?

Yes - I'm sure they do a magnificent job of it. I'm especially sure that they teach science in a fair and unbiased fashion and that their children are fully conversant with, say - the scientific theory of evolution...

What is common in other countries is a big deal in Germany. It is time to change this. Here in the US you can teach your kids yourself and lots of them are better off than the ones that go to school. It takes a lot to teach all of your kids on time and money and love. Not everbody is patient enough nor knows it all. I hope they change the law or the couple leaves, come on over here. At least we have freedom here. :-)

It's not like they forbid you from home schooling your children. You just have to send them to regular school as well. If you have the time, nobody will stop you from helping your kids with their homework and adding a different spin on things when you feel like it. Not like school here is an all day thing or anything.

Of course, that's true. But it's still quite a different thing from being able to set the timetable, pick how you want to present things, setting the pace, shielding them from bullying, etc. It also won't keep the kid from being either overwhelmed or bored in their regular class if they aren't an average learner in either direction. And significantly influencing their education would also cut into their play time.

Doing homework with young children is what parents should obviously do, but it's not quite a real alternative to full homeschooling.

And Homeschooling is not an alternative to the socialization you get by being with your peers all day.

I say this as a victim of 2 years of home school.

/at least parents weren't religious

//just in a shitty gang banger school district and was too poor at the time for private

Nor should it. Kids need to get out from under their parents and see the world on their own for part of the day, especially if the parents are religious nutters that brainwash them most of the day.

Homeschooling doesn't mean the kids will be home all day with the parents. They can see other kids in the afternoon, partake in sports, etc. Same as children who are in school.

The socialization you can get in school is great for a lot of kids. But it's not great for all kids, it is not great in every school environment and I don't think it is necessary to develop normal social interactive skills.

The thing is that I don't think there's a huge home-schooling network in Germany like the ones they have in the U.S, and Canada where there are indeed group activities organized outside of homeschooling and kids sometimes even go to a regular school for gym class. In Germany it seems to be isolated cases and the fact that it's illegal makes people sort of go underground, I would think.

Kids see each other all day during school, not the same as letting them out to soccer practice for a couple hours a day. Plus they get valuable time away from their parents, something they are going to have to learn when they are 18 and go out on their own (or in Germany 45 or however old it is when parents cut the umbibical cord ).

I certainly found it detrimental and most other homeschool kids I knew were always a bit.. off.

Parents should supplement their child's school education but taking them out of a vital developmental environment should not be done unless absolutely necessary.

I think it's fallacious to assume that being homeschooled means the kid will remain in the dependent state of a 6-year-old, and that they won't have friends in their own neighborhood, that other kids will be foreign creatures they see for 2 hours twice-weekly at soccer practice and don't understand, that not being in school with tons of other kids all day will mean their development is stunted. They will learn to do things on their own, have friends, hobbies, watch tv, communicate online and have a life outside of home, as well. They just won't share the exact same school environment that other kids share.

Quite frankly, I don't think school is a vital developmental environment.

I personally have a friend who was homeschooled (in Texas) and she's a remarkably independent young woman. Knew very well what she wanted, early on, had the freedom and flexibility to pursue it, etc. So being stunted by homeschool is obviously not an inavoidable consequence.

I'm a private-schooled kid, in a long line of the same. Never had any feelings of deprivation not being part of public school rah-rah, nor any feeling that I was missing anything except peer tutelage on underage drinking and/or pop culture.

That said, many home-schooled kids seem to do okay. I've met a number of them over the years. Not quite Abe Lincoln doing his math homework using a piece of charcoal on the back of a shovel, but close. I knew a guy in college whose Ivy League-educated parents had more money than God but still drove VW Rabbits, homeschooled them and let their kids sleep in the barn; every single kid got into an elite private university, all with full scholarships.

If one has the aptitude to be exceptional, and one is going to end up working in an exceptional environment anyway, why force kids to play football or kick-the-can with the neighborhood kids instead of playing lacrosse with the people one inevitably ends up working with in the end anyway? "Normality" is way overrated.

The socialization a child can get while being homeschooled is an alternative to that from public school. While there are HS "nutters" who manage to seclude their children from the outside world, and even those that limit the child's exposure to only religious atmospheres, there are homeschoolers who manage quite nicely to involve their children in plenty of activities not only with peer groups but also groups more diverse than those the child would encounter in public school.

I have known many homeschooled children who have, primarily because of being homeschooled, had more oppotunities to "get out from under their parents and see the world on their own for part of the day" (or much longer) than their friends in public school.

The couple in the article stated one of their reasons for homeschooling "...because doubt in the existence of God was a normal facet of [German] public school culture." They should move to Tennessee, where bible verses are read over the loudspeakers daily in the public school district where I lived.

A bit about teaching science at home..... I found myself buying about 75% of the materials we used from the local Christian bookstore. They had a terrific selection; Saxon Math, Anita Harnadek's Critical Thinking series (that one must have slipped by them) Wordly Wise, and on and on. But science....um, we had to look elsewhere.

Prep school is with other children, isn't it?

Look, you can end up just fine out of Home School, I did (although I suspect only because I am somewhat autodidactic), even if it took me a couple years to get socially integrated back in high school. But I (and many Child psychologists) view regular exposure to ones peers outside of the control of the parents as far more valuable than the general overprotective reasons for Home Schooling, not to mention the fact that these kids suffer from only being fed one view of the world from their parents.

I'm generally fairly libertarian but I'm all for Germany's opposition to this practice.

I consider myself a victim of public school, but I am fairly sure that had I been homeschooled, I would consider myself a victim of that too.

I'm a victim of public, Catholic, and homeschool

I will say that if I never went to Catholic school I wouldn't have experienced the vital life lesson that throwing a snowball at a nun results in suspension.

I can't top that.

No, it's not only you. I didn't mind just hearing about these in the news, but now I have to deal with one in person, and it is uncomfortable,…[/quote]These guys may be doing a good job, but how do you know that the next guy will also do as good a job. Regular checks and testing means a new establishment with it's politics, laws, regulations, employees and institutions. Which means money, which means budget from taxes. If the HSs want to pay for it out of their own pockets, fine with me. Me neither, but I believe the focus should still be on improving the school system, supported with after school activities.

I'm speechless.

It does every kid good to slum it with the public at times. After all, you will need to hire these people to work in your mansion at some point so it helps to understand where they come from.

I actually threw it at another kid and he ducked and it hit the nun... but she was a bitch so it served her right.

Bottom line? The rules aren't going to change....so if one is unhappy....one needs to leave Germany. Thats the simplest way of fixing the situation. After observing the lousy years my son spent in German school....and the marginal teachers that he had.....I could have done a better job myself....and thats a sad statement for all the money flushed into the German education sector.

I don't think the expenses would be so vast. They're already moving in a direction of more standardised testing, like the Zentralabitur, and homeschoolers could take part in those without creating many extra complications. It also shouldn't be too hard to create a standard test for each grade of school based on the official curriculum which kids could take at their local school, have it graded by a public school teacher, to check their progress. Besides, homeschooling parents WOULD pay taxes as well, for the public schools they're not using. Seems like enough of a reason to use some of that money for their own benefit.I don't think one has to exclude the other. OBVIOUSLY the public school system in Germany could stand some major improvements. But that doesn't stop me from thinking parents should be given more freedom.

Some of these comments are just proof of why this family wants to educate their own children. This educational system has effectively brainwashed you to believe the nonsense, liberal agenda they have been forcing into your brains! My children do not belong to the state, they are mine to educate, mine to raise in the moral convictions that I have and make sure they survive in this world so hostile to anything good! If you have no faith in God and any moral values and couldn't care less as to how your kids end up, go on and criticize those who care! Teachers can't handle rebellious kids anymore, parents are at wits end, school shootings seem to baffle those who think they know why it happens and now this government wants to take kids away from parents who care enough to protect their kids from all this! This family is willing to fight for their kids while most are happy to throw them to the wolves! Shame on you!

Well... How often should the tests be conducted? And how long should they last?

Somebody other than the family should be seeing these kids on a regular basis. In case there is abuse going on, it should be detected it in a timely manner, not after it's too late.

Btw, if you leave religious nuts alone for too long, this is what could happen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8381119.stm

actually in this case they're living on welfare and child support, that's why they only have to pay the minimum fine (?1) and obviously the government (=everybody paying taxes) is paying 100% in this case for all court/lawyer expenses as well no matter how it turns out.

I'm a bit confused. The article states they were fined for defying the countries compulsory school attendance. So is home schooling in any form legal here?

Yes, but I wasn't talking about this case specifically, but homeschooling in general.

ibth123:

I believe you are overlooking one significant difference between Germany and the US. While your observation about home schooling vs. public schooling is accurate, it is also true that if you wish to send your children to a "Christian School" in the US, you must pay their tuition. As I understand it, and I may be wrong here, in Germany you could send your child to a "public school" or a "Christian school" and the cost would be the same either way as both are a part of the German educational system.

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm sorry, but if that is correct, it is a significant difference between the two systems.

Home schooling is illegal in Germany

Home schooling is not illegal. Not sending your children to school is illegal. What you do in the time after the compulsory school visits is your business.

throwing a snowball at a nun results in suspension...by your ankles over an open fire while Father O'Donahue pokes you in the buttocks with a toasting fork...

There is something very arrogant about all of this; despite numerous educational experts, government bodies, historical studies and precedence which govern and define the public schools and the millions of other students frequenting public schools every day, I have decided that it is just not good enough an environment for my children. They are special after all and I think I can do a better job myself even though I may not have any qualifications or experience in teaching children. This way, they will hold me as a role model beyond being a parent and I can control everything they are being taught without any silly liberal notions getting into their heads, allowing them to question me or the existence of God....

Not being cynical or anything...

One of the many reasons for the choice I made to homeschool was so that I could ensure "silly liberal notions getting into their heads, allowing them to question me or the existence of a god..."

I think I can do a better job myself...

Yep, that's the problem alright.

Look, it's pretty simple, most (the vast majority of ) people are idiots who know sweet-F-A.

If you want to teach your child stupid notions about Creationism, Pi == 3, or people with different colored irises are the devil, that's your problem.

Society as a whole will pay the price for your idiocy, and to help mitigate the effects of your idiocy, we insist that your child also attend public school, at least that way we can identify your dysfunctional child early.

Why can't they get that at non-secular public school?

LinsAM, do you have such a low opinion of parents that you think every single one of them who is not happy with the public education system and would prefer to homeschool must do so because they are 1) a narcissist and/or 2) a religious, conservative nutter?

What? You mean secular?

Yeah I meant secular

Schools are required to report abuse they notice but it is not the primary reason for their existence to perform surveilance on parents and look for signs of abuse. What about pre-school-aged children? Who's performing those regular checks there? You cannot build a society on a principle of distrust of parents. COULD homeschooling be abused? It could. But to assume it's the only purpose reveals an outlook on people so bleak that even the current public school system couldn't possibly do it justice.

Academically, kids could get tested every 6 months or so. That shouldn't create too harsh a hassle and wouldn't put those children at a big disadvantage to public school children whose performance is formally graded in Zeugnisse every Halbjahr, as well.

LinsAM, do you have such a low opinion of parents that you think every single one of them who is not happy with the public education system and would prefer to home-school must do so because they are 1) a narcissist and/or 2) a religious, conservative nutter?

No, not every single one of them, I am sure there are cases where their child is not happy in school and is detrimental to their health. But in the report which was linked above, the two main reasons were 'can get a better education at home' and 'religious reasons'. To me, this does indicate a level of narcissism and religious nuttery is involved. I am sure they are not the only reasons but that is my perception.

And you are forgetting that kids in school can socialize.

I'll grant you the religious bits in this case (although we don't know how their science curriculum actually looked like) but the narcissism? Because they think they can give their children a better education? Why? In the article itself it says that they did a good job.

They may indeed be doing a fine job, but the main issue here is that they are breaking the law in Germany and may have to face serious consequences.

Maybe not narcissism, but arrogance definitely. The point being they thinkthey can give them a better education.

Well the UK Labour party seem to be intent on exactly that.

You now need to get a "licence" to prove you are trustworthy under the Vetting and Barring Scheme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8249020.stm

I'm afraid the UK Nanny State has been working along these lines for some time. You cannot be involved in any sort of sport/activities club without having to have a certain number of club "officials" having to attend child-protection (correct term slips my memory) courses.

This also applies to UK gliding clubs - I shudder to think if the consequences for clubs will be if it comes over here. We (within the German Gliding organisation) are seeing cross-fire from the UK attempting to have us (in Germany) raise the minimum age for learning to fly gliders from 14 to 16 - and we have so many success stories with 14-yr olds here.

But is it arrogance if they aren't exactly wrong?

Why must they necessarily conform with the public school model or be classed arrogant…[/quote]Yes. That part was definitely utter and complete stupidity.Wow. I'm speechless. I see the good intentions behind it but it's still.. scary.

Congratulations Germany! Punish those dangerous Christians! After all, if the children don¦#39;t attend public schools, however will they learn how to operate those baby dumpsters, where your irresponsible biological ¦quot;parents¦quot; DISCARD the disgusting refuse of their unprotected lust?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the point of most of this discusion. Its all hypothetical anyway. Attending an approved school is mandatory ,there is little a group of non Germans are going to do about it. The Germans are the ones who would have to work within their own system to change that if its an issue. I doubt it is to the majority. Do these folks even have the education to provide adequate schooling to their kids so they have a chance later on or are they just a couple of wingnuts?

I'm personally torn on the subject of homeschooling (it can be good, it can be bad) but I don't like the statist position of the German government in insisting on blanket school attendance - it's too authoritarian and undemocratic.

The danger of MANDAORY public schools should be more alarming to Germans. Only governments, which feel the need to propagandize the children would REQUIRE children to attend public schools. "Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

A large part of the problem in this case and with homeschooling in Germany in general is that after reunification of East and West Germany, most of the laws regarding education were amended to reflect those of East Germany - a communist state, where independent education or independent thinking or independent anything was strictly taboo.

My guess is that the "something" that was reported was merely that they were not following the status quo. From my own experience, the German government is overly involved in the daily lives of its citizens, requiring information one wouldn't dream of giving the government in the US. Marching to the beat of a different drummer is not encouraged or allowed.

Like in the US, requiring mandatory school attendance is not necessarily in the best interests of the children, but instead best serves the purposes of the state in maintaining its own existence and a predictable and manageable populace.

"...actually in this case they're living on welfare and child support,..."

I see. But they do a good job. I reckon they even can teach the 17years-old how to pray and clean his shoes at the same time?

If they can pass the academic tests other school children their age pass, what's the problem? The German law ought not be centered on attendance, but on scheduled academic achievement.

As for socialization, homeschooled children have an advantage over those stuck in government buildings for set blocks of time - only if the parent teaching them actually takes the child out into the world and challenges them to communicate with other generations on a variety of subjects under different circumstances on a regular basis.

The vitriolic anti-Christian bias in some of these comments is remarkable. This story has generated 62 comments so far, most of which seem to assume that because these parents are Christian they are automatically disqualified from being effective teachers. The story about 90 Islamic jihadists living in the German underground, on the other hand, generates only 3 comments....

So-called intellectuals who have never bothered to learn what Christianity actually teaches (from a true biblical perspective) will not realize that their visceral bigotry is not only predicted, but well-described in Romans chapter 1.

I can't say what these children are learning (and neither can any commenter who does not know their parents) but if it is a biblical worldview, I would say their understanding of the world easily surpasses the understanding of some of the earlier commenters...

I feel that educating our children is a big responsibility and it is not to be taken lightly. The role of a parent is different to that of a teacher (who has the training etc), and these roles compliment one another as they work in partnership, providing a support for the child and his/her education. Our efforts could be better spent improving the educational system and supporting the efforts of these improvements, and making the education of all children a social and community responsibility with common beliefs and values. We should also respect the law.

...and in further news a German couple have actually been granted asylum in the USA on the basis of "persecution" in Germany by not being allowed to home-school their children.

They're only doing it so their kids can have access to the BEST Schoolbooks!

As an atheist I oppose religious fundamentalism and (the teaching of) creationism tooth and nail but the claim by the German authorities that children need to learn to socialise with other children at school as a justification for the ban on home-schooling is also less than honest. Some children socialise well at school, other would benefit only from home-schooling. My objection in this case is that these children will never be exposed to other points of view in respect of religion.

The real reason for Germany's ban on home-schooling is its belief that the state, not the nation's parents, should be the prime educator of children. Essentially the German state does not trust parents or the people in general and, to that extent, is incredibly statist (look at Roland Koch in Hessen) - one has only to look at the degree to which the state involves itself in the private lives of the citizens here in Germany and in continental Europe in general. I find this attitude incredibly anal, not to say stifling. Home schooling should be allowed in Germany but should be approved on a case-by-case basis.

This couple was living off benefits and are religious nutters so I guess the USA are welcome to finance them!

Will the parents pay the unemployment benefit if they up the education of their child?

Will the parents pay the unemployment benefit if they f+ck up the education of their child?

I guess the fact that the parents of the seven kids are on benefits speaks for itself...

I am supportive of the German stance to prohibit homeschooling, what on earth should parents with 7 kids without a job, possibly be able to teach kids? How to fill out the relevant forms to claim benefits?

There's already a whole thread about the Romeikes, whose move to the US and subsequent legal fees have been financed by a homeschooling advocacy g…[/quote]Anybody know what he might be referring to?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about biology in general, and about evolution and sex education in particular.

Ahhhh. The previous thread did got give the reason that the US court found that the parents were eligible to make an asylum claim. They had, in fact, been criminally prosecuted and intially sentenced to prison time for something that is considered to be a legitimate protected exercise of religious freedom in the US. Actually, you don't have to have religious reasons for wanting to home school your kids in many states. FYI, kids who are homes schooled still have to be able to pass the same standardized tests that students who graduate from high school or get a GED must pass.

That all depends on the state. Some states are so lazy about keeping track of kids, they don't even require registration with the state for homeschoolers. From the TIME article:AFAIK, there is no requirement in any state that if you homeschool, you claim religious reasons.

The first people that I ever met who home schooled their kids, and they had about as many as this family did, were not religious people. They were more what I would call ex hippies who did not want to move their large family into a small, expensive house in the "good" school district or pay private school tuition for that many kids like many people did. My point was that according to US law, these people were prosecuted for their religious beliefs. Groups like the Scientologists don't have the problems in the US that they do in Germany because, regardless of whatever kind of scumbag scammers they may be, they are, in fact, legally classified as a church and as such, are off limits to the law until they do something clearly criminal. The law is designed to protect people that you don't like because people that you like usually don't need protection.

Correct. There are many non-religious homeschoolers in the US. We are atheists and have considered doing it.

And that's where the problems are. Nobody should ever be allowed to do something 'for religious' reasons that others would not be allowed. Religious freedom should be the right to practice any religion than somebody wishes to. It shouldn't be allow any practice because it's religious. Indeed the Governments of the world should do a far better job of protecting people from religions.

There are certain legal items which can be viewed through a certain lense - in one country, this item is legal because parents say it would be an infringement to their right, in the other country it's outlawed because it's an infringement to the child's right. It's just a different approach in each country.

Between the USA and Germany one of those other items is homeschooling; another notable one is corporal punishment. There's a couple other items, e.g. related to custody or medical self-determination.

Okay with the one family yes it is a reasoning of religious beliefs which I also do not agree that you should be able to separate the children because your belief says so this in itself brings ignorance to the children. Now with homeschooling by itself in Germany it is just frowned upon because they believe the state should be in-charge with this and I am sorry but the German state is doing a horrible job of this there reluctance to accept other means of education is destroying the once vaulted education system they used to have.

More news just to hand on the German-US home-school asylum case.

Die Welt Online, 9 March 2010 (my translation - onemark)

Conservative Christians: Asylum in US for German Home-Schoolers in Danger

Whereas education in Chicago is obviously extremely high-quality in comparison. No, they weren't. Laws against homeschooling don't amount to religious discrimination.

I've written on this forum many times that if the United States population had the proportions of Muslims that some European countries have, the US would ban homeschooling as well, for fear of fostering mini-madrassas. It's only because an overwhelming proportion of homeschooling families who do so for religious reasons are Christian that homeschooling is tolerated here.

I love how this article dances around the fact, as stated in the TIME article linked earlier, that the Home School Legal Defense Association paid this family's expenses to move to the US and settle in this designated town, specifically to launch a test case for granting asylum to families prevented from homeschooling in their own countries.

Interestingly, there is no German school system. There are 16 different state defined school systems. School and education is completely under state law, not under federal law. E.g., in Hamburg state, some school system aspects will be subject of a public decission in 2010. Public decissions on school system aspects like these are possible and on their way, but there is simply no public interest in introducing home schooling. There is a good choice of various school types. And obviously people in each of the 16 states do not feel that society would benefit from introducing home schooling.

IMO, especially availability of Turkish/Arab TV has fostered a parallel society already (with a generation less integrated than the generations before). IMO, Turkish/Arab home schooling would contribute to dis-integrating society even more.

Base line: it is not about the state deciding on this topic. It is voters of 16 states deciding independently. And IMO with a good reason.

Hamster3:

I agree but please also see my comments on 7 March, 7:25pm

Nothing to dance around. The US Constitution has a strict "case or controversy" rule so we don't get to run our laws by the Supreme Court to be rubber stamped like they do in places like France. Test cases are how you find out what the law means over here. I figure that everyone should be happy with this one. The Euro's should be happy that they might be able to get rid of some Christian Neanderthals and Republicans will be happy to pick up a bunch of new lily white fundamentalist Christian Neo-Nazi voters to fill the future gap vacated by all of those aborted white Democrat fetuses. Sorry, Lefties. Once we finally team up with all of those illiterate Roman Catholic Hispanic illegal immigrants, you are in deep dookey, ;-)

private schools are perfectly legal and accepted.

The issue before the US Court was not whether thee were private schools. It was whether these folks had been persecuted (and prosecuted) for religious beliefs and the court found that had been. DHS is naturally going to appeal because their mission is to keep everyone out of the US. By the way, we had a mom convicted here because her 14 year old daughter skipped like 75% of school days last year, but that wasn't a home schooling case. it was a crackhead mom truancy case.

The US immigration authorities are appealing a verdict granting asylum to the family of German home-schoolers...

Why don't they want them in the USA? I personally wouldn't want them either, but I am still puzzled.

Like I said, they don't want anyone. Whenever Immigration gets what they feel is an unfavorable ruling, they will appeal as a matter of course. The don't want that one on the books. One reason that they might use in this case is that they are bums that are "voluntarily" on welfare.

@onemark: I always read about "the state" interferring with people. I understand that the American perception is quite different from the European/German one. For me, I do not see "the state" interferring with anything in my life. What I do see is society and individuals, but not society vs. individuals.

I have often talked to Americans who obviously integrate very well with their family, their parish, their mates. But who do not want "the state" to interfere with their life. And I am not really sure if US-Americans do belief in / rely on a "US-American society".

Germany's has had a good experience of "society building" (rather than "state building") after the murderous 30 years of the war 1618/1648, in various occasions after that, in integrating millions of refugees and rebuilding society after WW2. I as a German do not see the state as something to oppose to, but I do see the state to implement society's will. And German society wants society to prosper, not individuals to take chances. Quite different to any individual pioneer approach.

This is "my" society. And I am quite happy with the state serving society's will in a reasonable way. Aspects to be improved? Fine, go politics or just go and vote.

As I said and you had ignored I do not believe in separate education just because of religious beliefs. If you wish to quote me quote the whole paragraph it was only another sentence :double roll of eyes: Now for your little Chicago comment where as Public schools in Chicago have been in the gutter for along time. They have steadily improved themselves each year there have been hiccups here and there but even other cities have looked and copied the way Chicago has redone alot of the schools even in repressed neighborhoods do they have a way to go yes but they are heading in the right direction finally. Now on to Germany they in turn are going in the opposite direction learning levels, scores, and the help in education has been steadily declining even there own statistics say this when they leave them online long enough, the last month this has been almost a recurring theme on German TV RBB has carried several stories, RTL had to reportages in the past 2 weeks on this issue so yes Germany of a decade ago looked much better then Germany now and that is what I am comparing.

I do see that the 3 tier system they have now is becoming a lost souls and Aüslander trap 80% of children in the lower class schools are non-germans(including the ones who have a German passport but hey you have the wrong sounding last name)this is the reality that is happening here. So we are not talking about Chicago we are talking about whats going on here, I have the capacity to separate the two

There wuz another thread on this topic somewhere else, but I'm a Sinner an I jez can't find the darn thing, so help me Cheezis.

But if any of you folks is wonderin' why we don' wanna send our kids to the public edukashin system, here's why...

[url]http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0507/babies.html

Yea thazs vas ery intrezing Keefy

However, it can also be clearly seen that this is primarily the case in those states that allow the parents to interfere with their children's education. And the parents for the most part try to get their children into "higher" schools of course, no matter whether the children fit in there or not.

Boy thats a loaded statement. I guess that our problem is the we ecourage parents to "interfere" Do they even have a PTA in German schools?

They don't want a precedent set that anyone in the world who would rather educate their child some other way than how their own country sees fit, qualifies for political asylum and home schooling. Entirely correct.

Germany has not interfered with the free practice of this family's religion. This is not an appropriate use of asylum.

And yet a judge, and an appointed Federal judge as opposed to an elected local yokel, at that, disagrees with you. I find it amusing that many of you have problem with his rather, ahem, "liberal" interpretation of the law just because you don't like the family, but I shouldn't be surprised. That is how how things often go regardless of what the issue is. Freedoms and rights are only important if they are ones that you think are important and that is a human disease as opposed to a Republican or Democrat one.

I think one of the main points of criticism of the German educational system by expats is that the school day often ends at noon instead of late afternoon as they're used from home.

This demands or offers more participation by the parents than in a system where children are kept in school most of the day. This has its disadvantages which have been discussed in length. But an advantage is obviously that there is plenty of time to spend on other activities. If parents think that something is missing in the education, they have more than sufficient opportunitiy to set it up themselves.

Appointed Federal judges disagree with each other all the time. One ruling does not make something a good or bad interpretation.

Hans321,

Sorry, but I can't agree: it doesn't have anything to do with school hours in Germany at all, particularly since so many women in Germany work.

See my previous posts in this thread on homeschooling.

What bugs me is the view of the German state (and of the state in continental Europe in general, to varying degrees) that the people are there for the state and not the other way round - as it should be in a democracy. I find Germany quite crass in this context.

I don?t really get what you mean. In my opinion the German school system keeps to a greater extend out of the education of the children and requires a greater participation of the parents or non-state organizations than many other countries.

I think that this is a contradiction to your claim that the German state disallows home schooling because it wants to be the primary educator instead of the parents.

And I think the question whether both parents work has nothing to with it since obviously home schooling parents also need to spend considerable time on it. If they're able to spend the time on home schooling, then it's even less of a problem to spend the time on education in the afternoon or the weekend.

Given the ridiculously early hour that German schools finish there are plenty of hours left in a day to brainwash the children as they see fit.

I think it would be more accurate to say that a more socialist state would like all of it's citizens to have as good an education as possible.

You are correct. Legally speaking, Roe v. Wade is a piece of regardless of what you think of the outcome and Dred Scott is a well reasoned decision soundly based in the Constitutional principles of equal protection and full faith and credit.

Agreed, and in many cases you can come to completely opposite decisions that are both legally constitutionally sound.

I am somewhat surprised that the judge didn't consider that there are other countries within the EU with a more open policy towards home schooling, e.g. Austria. I do believe that there are some children that do not fit the public school concept and would do better if they were home schooled. On the other hand you have to balance this against the children of religious or other nutjobs who would be exposed to unrestricted brainwashing at home.

The fundamental question here concerns the role of the state in relation to the people, as well as the role of the school system in society.

There is a great deal of comparison happening here-comparison between different countries, different kinds of schools, etc. This can be enlightening, but it isn't the main issue. I challenge all of you who have posted on this topic to do some research (not just on the internet) on the history of the German education system, and in particular, mandatory schooling. Once you have established exactly when, by whom, and to what end mandatory public schooling was established and maintained, you will have a more coherent understanding of the issues at play here. Moreover, your comments will make a lot more sense if you understand the context a bit better.

What role do public education systems play in relation to the state and society? Why do we have them?

Have a look at this book by Detlev Peukert. http://openlibrary.org/b/OL2312163M/Grenzen_der_Sozialdisziplinierung

I am personally against home-schooling and agree that it is often a breeding ground for fantics and fundamentalists but I'm also against the state telling me how to raise and educate my children. If I want to raise little freaks it should be my right but then I can't well expect the state to pay for the mistakes I may make when my little freaks can't conform and hold down jobs to support themselves, or worse, join some fundamentalist sect and start bombing things.

It's a conundrum. I think for now I still lean toward the libertarian approach of keeping the state out of it but I can feel myself becoming more socialist as I age and can see reasonable arguments for the other side as well.

I'd heard that home-schooling was made illegeal by Hitler as he wanted to be able to control (ie brainwash) all the kids with his particular brand of knowledge and beliefs and the easiest way to do this was to make it illegal to be home-schooled and force all children to go to school.

The easiest way was to force them to join the Hitlerjugend.

Why don't people mind their own effing business and let others do what they want to do? If I want to educate my children at home and I can show that they are of at least average learning, why the hell shouldn't I do it? So many have said "but it's the law". What a load of rollicks - who made that law? Some moron politician, whose only reason for existence is to fill his/her coffers. Not of course that education authorities are any better - take for example the British, who are trying to put more controls on home education - Ofsted told a Commons select committee that parents should be checked for criminal records before being allowed to home educate. Stupid effing morons or what?

I'm also amazed at people saying that because they are educated at home, children will not be able to blend into society. So I take it all the weirdos, criminals and other dregs of society were not educated in state schools - they all came out of home schooling.

Last point, just because those parents are on welfare, it is assumed they are uneducated? Somebody said that because they were on welfare, they are teaching their children how to fill in welfare forms. Well, back in Thatcher's (spit on the floor) days, when I went to enroll my children in an English school, I asked to what level they taught and guess what the Deputy Head told me - "We teach them to sign on".

Yes, I believe Josef Fritzl took advantage of that particular freedom.

I'm not aware of any Western state which allows the parents to raise their children in any way they want. If parents decide that it's best if their children don't learn to read and write and speak only Klingon, then a state will intervene. There is no completely libertarian approach to education.

The question is in my opinion how one defines education. The countries allowing home schooling take the position that book knowledge is sufficient. If the children pass some standard tests, then everything is fine as far as they are concerned. Germany takes the position that there's an additional component to education which includes the interaction with other children and being exposed to a variety of points of view.

In the UK the parents are legally responsible for educating their children, not the state. Here's the law:'Efficient full-time education' is not defined (luckily for the authorities, otherwise it might have to apply to them as well) so there are no minimum standards to be attained, no register to keep updated, no need to ask permission, no need to take any tests, and in practice if you home educate you will be left alone unless there's evidence that harm of some sort is occurring. Of course the statists hate this and are pressing for a register and the right to interfere.

Wheel, you seem to have missed some details like the "school attendance orders" in Chapter II. No freedom for parents to do what they like in the UK, either.

If you are surprised then it is because you do not understand how the US legal system works. The question of whether there are other countries in the EU that have more lenient policies was not at issue as a matter of law. The only question was whether they qualified for asylum. That is the "case or controversy" rule. Also, one man's nutjob is another man's freedom loving citizen. Over here, we still tend to err on the side of the second argument much of the time.

We have the same policy in the US, but they can be bypassed through such things as approved home schooling.

There is no obligation for any child to go to school, or have any contact with the education authorities whatsoever in the UK. That is the law as it stands now, school attendance orders notwithstanding.

Without having firm knowledge of UK education legislation I suppose that the authorities can mandate school attendance if the child isn't being instructed according to the national curriculum?

No, they can't. I said that already. I posted the relevant legislation as well.

So what is exactly meant by "suitable education" in this provision of the act:

It's not defined. There is certainly no curriculum to follow or standards to achieve. And in practice since there's no obligation to register a child with a school or education authority, the vast majority of home educated children are left alone. The authorities only get involved if there are child welfare issues.

Yes, German society restricts parental control over "their" children (and law makers have legislated accordingly; in the case of compulsary schooling lawmakers legislated independently in 16 German states).

Some examples:

1) §1631 II BGB bans physical punishment of children.

2) Children of 14 yrs of age are fully "religionsmündig" (entitled to opt for or against the membership to a denommination). No parentral control in religious issues any longer.

3) Full ban on female genital mutilation.

3b) But no ban on religiously mandated male circumcision.

4) Mandatory schooling.

5) You are not entitled to sell your child.

As elaborated before, 4) is a non-issue for most of German society. In Hamburg state, a public decission on schooling is on its way for 2010. But nobody engaged in putting home schooling into this. People simply do not see a benefit for society, but a possible thread (fostering parallel societies). It is smiply a non-issue. Whoever wants to put this on the agenda, feel free to do so: for Hamburg you (IMO) just have to collect 60,000 votes for a "Bürgerbegehren" which then mandates a public decission.

Back to parentral control over children.

Other countries may have other priorities. One example is 3b) in Denmark. Society there discusses if male circumcision based on parental order should be banned (and be only allowed with a consenting boy older than 15). Do you also claim that the bad Danish state is mandating this? No, again it is society. And Danish society will come to a decission on this some time, if I/you like it or not.

Good to see you're all having fun with this topic but really it should be possible to fine a religious couple just for being that, and even more for reproducing and then indoctrinating their offspring into their sky magic.

Carry on.

Which socialization practices don't count as indoctrination? Just ones you approve of?

I guess in some states alot of schools end around noon. It has been this way for along time plus some people forget that in the states and parts of Canada kids get 3 months off for summer vacation(which is to long)and the children here there longest vacation is about 6 to 7 weeks so there is a reasoning for not going to 3pm. Now in Heidelberg depending on the school it can be all day till 4pm or half day till Noon or 1pm. Now what I have observed is that the all day schools have predominately foreign children and the half day ones have mostly "actual German" children in it as I had a SCHOOL DIRECTOR tell me, the brazenness has seized to amaze me now when some people speak of the Aüslanders

The thinking of some posters that is the states responsibility to take care of and teach there children moral lessons, when I get on to a bus and I see a elderly person come on and they are looking to get a seat, and the look on there face says everything that these kids now have absolutely no guidance because most of the time not a one will move or offer there seat.

Those who mentioned Hitler, parallel societies, indoctrination, and socialisation are all on the right track.

Those who quote the laws word for word and justify them with vague references to international norms are clearly missing the point.

No one has answered concerning the actual roles of public education and the state. Why? For whom? To what end? Since when?

I don't mean to mystify my fellow TTers with cryptic statements and rhetorical questions, but the questions at least are important.

We could shift the topic to some other mundane aspect of life like income taxes, police, or identity documents and expose the same shallowness of reasoning.

This counts as rational ignorance. The cost in time and effort of visiting the library and reading piles of obscure books is greater than any conceivable benefit to be obtained by doing so. Or is it?

It really started in the 18th century as a consequence of the enlightenment, mainly in the protestant states. Especially farmers were reluctant to send their children to school since children at that time normally helped on the farm. So the compulsory attendance of school was meant to ensure that they got an education instead of working on the fields (though hollidays in the autumn were scheduled to a time that they could help with the harvest).

Good start. There is definitely a connection between literacy and Protestantism--after all, if the Bible in its printed form is the word of God, then literacy is next to Godliness. It is no wonder that the followers of Luther and Calvin stressed the importance of literacy. Calvinist Scotland's schools and universities were among the most advanced in the British Isles during the early modern period. No surprise.

However, it was the 19th and twentieth centuries that really shaped our current situation with regards to state education. State mandated schooling is actually a relatively recent innovation in Germany. Of course the questions of why and by whom remain unanswered.

I think the Detlev Peukert book mentioned above is a good start, especially as it introduces the concept of 'Sozialdisziplinierung', though the literature on the subject is really enormous!

I'm not trying to sound clever or anything, I promise. I am however an aspiring historian, and worse still, my work is focused on youth policy in twentieth century Germany. I can't help but get really involved when I see this topic crop up. Hardly anyone seems to take the time to delve into the history of state policy, and as a result, most people can't really make heads of tails of what is going on today, and they take everything absolutely at face value. This isn't the superficially emotional issue so many people make it when they say things like "Well I personally think that so and so has the right to educate his own children..." And so on. Current state policies are built upon the legacy of previous policies, though many of today's policies serve slightly different functions from those of the past (vestigial policies almost always take on new functions over time).

What is actually happening is a kind of social engineering. Children are funnelled into a more or less uniform (despite the significant influence of federalism) education system that is controlled ultimately by a state bureaucracy. These children are socialised, indoctrinated, trained, brainwashed, or whatever you want to call it, into accepting a very specific set of values, namely those promulgated by state cultural and education policy. These values are in most cases those of the middle class, and aren't necessarily bad--they are almost always necessary prerequisites for success in the professional world and the society as a whole. Part of the question here concerns whether the state is right in promulgating a very narrow set of cultural values at the expense of others--that is, a single national culture at the expense of cultural pluralism. This part at least is not entirely new, and is built on a tradition of state centralisation and consolidation of power that dates back at least two centuries.

Cultural and social policies of this kind are also relative newcomers on the education scene. Exceptions are generally not tolerated (note the emphasis on 'parallel societies') as they weaken the state monopoly on education/socialisation and provide an alternate conduit through which competing value systems may be transferred. I would venture to guess that alternative value systems are being suppressed in part for the same reasons that minority languages and cultures were long marginalised in large, centralising states such as France. In any case, the roots of this socialisation and cultural policy issue are no doubt connected to the rise of nationalism and the formation of modern nation states in the 19th century. We would do well to look at cultural and education policy in Prussia and also the German Reich after 1871. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the Kulturkampf is also tied into this one. Bismarck's drive to strip the Catholic Church of its position as an institutional competitor to the state is sure to feature in this debate somewhere.

The processes that began in the 1870s only continued into the period after the First World War. State centralisation in Germany surged forward under the Nazis, who were especially keen on dominating the entire spectrum of German cultural life. The 'Reichskulturkammer' under Dr. Goebbels, for example, made National Socialist cultural policy the law of the land. I should double check this, but I believe the first nation wide introduction of mandatory state schooling was under the Nazis, I think around 1938 (but that is off the top of my head). The aim of centrally controlled education policy (at the expense of the Laender) was first and foremost to standardise education to the greatest degree possible and harmonise it with state and party policies. The position of the Hitler youth is also indicative of this, especially after membership in NS youth organisations became mandatory. Needless to say, wholesale indoctrination was part of the game.

After the Second World War, 'the game' as I called it continued, except after 1945, individual Allied powers sought to remake the German education system in their own image. Cultural policy was bound tightly with denazification and democratisation in the western zones of occupation, and in the Soviet zone, the creation of a socialist/Stalinist state was paramount. To sum it up, the western Allies saw school policy as a tool of their own cultural policy, and the Nazi precedent of mandatory schooling survived the occupation period, and was embraced by successive German administrations, though of course in a much muted form. In the GDR, the old authoritarian pattern continued with the party and state domination of the education system and youth life. We shouldn't forget that one of the ultimate goals of both the Hitler youth and the FDJ was to separate children from their parents as early as possible so as to mitigate the influence of their parents' ideas, which (in private) may or may not have served state policy. Both dictatorships capitalised on natural youth rebellion, driving a wedge between parents and their children, and turning children into de facto agents of the state, unwitting spies in the home.

The policy of separating children from parents at a young age is still very much alive in Germany, as well as some other countries (think Sweden), albeit in a rather benign form. Recent debates over the 'integration' of ethnic minorities has strongly flavoured the debate. See the recent article in the Economist about Swedish kindergartens trying to scoop up immigrant children as early as possible so they can be taught 'Swedish' culture and language rather than what their parents might teach them.

Increasing state contact with youth is not in and of itself bad, but we should always be sceptical of the motives and designs that lie behind official policy. Public schools were and are (in many countries, including the USA and the UK) in part a zone in which children can be monitored by state authorities--essentially part of a surveillance apparatus for child welfare authorities. The school is also the zone in which the characteristically middle class values that are needed for 'success' in mainstream society and in the job market are taught. Respect for authority, compliance with the law, time discipline, and a whole host of other values accompany more mundane instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic.

Most of this is almost universal in education policy on the international level. The primary difference lies in the balance between monolithic state authority and the rights of citizens. This is perhaps part of the reason why some of our anglophones object so passionately to this aspect of German policy--because they were never socialised into accepting it as normal.

Sorry for the length. I hope someone reads this and finds it interesting.

Very interesting post. But I think the introduction of mandatory schooling was 1919 (Weimarer Schulkompromiss).

This is true, but the argument can also be made that most countries that allow home school also have mandatory public education, although it is varied. In the US, for example, some states heavy handedly prosecute truants and occasionally their parents, while tolerating home schooling and 'schools' that fulfil the legal requirements in name only.

I'm looking at the Weimarer Verfassung now. These quotes might be helpful--you're certainly right that Schulpflicht came into the picture in 1919, though it would be good to find out more about what this meant in practice. I will dive into the literature and see what I can find on it. I think the rest of my argument stands, nonetheless.

Artikel 145

Es besteht allgemeine Schulpflicht. Ihrer Erfüllung dient grundsätzlich die Volksschule mit mindestens acht Schuljahren und die anschließende Fortbildungsschule bis zum vollendeten achtzehnten Lebensjahre. Der Unterricht und die Lernmittel in den Volksschulen und Fortbildungsschulen sind unentgeltlich.

(Okay, very good that is cleared up... now let's look at other forms of schools.)

....

Artikel 147

Private Schulen als Ersatz für öffentliche Schulen bedürfen der Genehmigung des Staates und unterstehen den Landesgesetzen. Die Genehmigung ist zu erteilen, wenn die Privatschulen in ihren Lehrzielen und Einrichtungen sowie in der wissenschaftlichen Ausbildung ihrer Lehrkräfte nicht hinter den öffentlichen Schulen zurückstehen und eine Sonderung der Schüler nach den Besitzverhältnissen der Eltern nicht gefördert wird. Die Genehmigung ist zu versagen, wenn die wirtschaftliche und restliche Stellung der Lehrkräfte nicht genügend gesichert ist.

Private Volksschulen sind nur zuzulassen, wenn für eine Minderheit von Erziehungsberechtigten, deren Wille nach Artikel 146 Abs. 2 zu berücksichtigen ist, eine öffentliche Volksschule ihres Bekenntnisses oder ihrer Weltanschauung in der Gemeinde nicht besteht oder die Unterrichtsverwaltung ein besonderes pädagogisches Interesse anerkennt.

Private Vorschulen sind aufzuheben.

Für private Schulen, die nicht als Ersatz für öffentliche Schulen dienen, verbleibt es bei dem geltenden Recht.

(And what do schools do?)

Artikel 148

In allen Schulen ist sittliche Bildung, staatsbürgerliche Gesinnung, persönliche und berufliche Tüchtigkeit im Geiste des deutschen Volkstums und der Völkerversöhnung zu erstreben.

Beim Unterricht in öffentlichen Schulen ist Bedacht zu nehmen, daß die Empfindungen Andersdenkender nicht verletzt werden.

Staatsbürgerkunde und Arbeitsunterricht sind Lehrfächer der Schulen. Jeder Schüler erhält bei Beendigung der Schulpflicht einen Abdruck der Verfassung.

Das Volksbildungswesen, einschließlich der Volkshochschulen, soll von Reich, Ländern und Gemeinden gefördert werden.

(There we go, moulding the nation. )

This is true, but the argument can also be made that most countries that allow home school also have mandatory public education, although it is varied. In the US, for example, some states heavy handedly prosecute truants and occasionally their parents, while tolerating home schooling and 'schools' that fulfil the legal requirements in name only.

I'm looking at the Weimarer Verfassung now. These quotes might be helpful--you're certainly right that Schulpflicht came into the picture in 1919, though it would be good to find out more about what this meant in practice. I will dive into the literature and see what I can find on it. I think the rest of my argument stands, nonetheless.

Artikel 145

Es besteht allgemeine Schulpflicht. Ihrer Erfüllung dient grundsätzlich die Volksschule mit mindestens acht Schuljahren und die anschließende Fortbildungsschule bis zum vollendeten achtzehnten Lebensjahre. Der Unterricht und die Lernmittel in den Volksschulen und Fortbildungsschulen sind unentgeltlich.

(Okay, very good that is cleared up... now let's look at other forms of schools.)

....

Artikel 147

Private Schulen als Ersatz für öffentliche Schulen bedürfen der Genehmigung des Staates und unterstehen den Landesgesetzen. Die Genehmigung ist zu erteilen, wenn die Privatschulen in ihren Lehrzielen und Einrichtungen sowie in der wissenschaftlichen Ausbildung ihrer Lehrkräfte nicht hinter den öffentlichen Schulen zurückstehen und eine Sonderung der Schüler nach den Besitzverhältnissen der Eltern nicht gefördert wird. Die Genehmigung ist zu versagen, wenn die wirtschaftliche und restliche Stellung der Lehrkräfte nicht genügend gesichert ist.

Private Volksschulen sind nur zuzulassen, wenn für eine Minderheit von Erziehungsberechtigten, deren Wille nach Artikel 146 Abs. 2 zu berücksichtigen ist, eine öffentliche Volksschule ihres Bekenntnisses oder ihrer Weltanschauung in der Gemeinde nicht besteht oder die Unterrichtsverwaltung ein besonderes pädagogisches Interesse anerkennt.

Private Vorschulen sind aufzuheben.

Für private Schulen, die nicht als Ersatz für öffentliche Schulen dienen, verbleibt es bei dem geltenden Recht.

(And what do schools do?)

Artikel 148

In allen Schulen ist sittliche Bildung, staatsbürgerliche Gesinnung, persönliche und berufliche Tüchtigkeit im Geiste des deutschen Volkstums und der Völkerversöhnung zu erstreben.

Beim Unterricht in öffentlichen Schulen ist Bedacht zu nehmen, daß die Empfindungen Andersdenkender nicht verletzt werden.

Staatsbürgerkunde und Arbeitsunterricht sind Lehrfächer der Schulen. Jeder Schüler erhält bei Beendigung der Schulpflicht einen Abdruck der Verfassung.

Das Volksbildungswesen, einschließlich der Volkshochschulen, soll von Reich, Ländern und Gemeinden gefördert werden.

(There we go, moulding the nation. )

Hi Antrodemus,

at least two of your points are wrong and misleading (so I am taking the role of opposition you are looking for).

As elaborated before, IMO there is no monolithic state authority vs. rights of the citizens issue in Germany of 2010. It is society fostering society. Society ultimately decide, lawmakers legislate, jurisdiction do interpret. And society wants society to prosper - now and in the next decades. So German society is happy with the level of social security, even if it costs. German society wants immigrants to integrate, because now and in the upcoming decades society wants them to contribute for pension, interior freedom and social security (this means, whoever applies for residence permit also has to apply for becoming member of this society). Same thing with schooling. Society wants young people to integrate and finally to contribute.

You may have noted that Germany has no king or aristocracy commanding people. There may be some "money aristocracy" but even they only exist because society has decided that it is a good idea to allow them doing their business.

Base line: there is no monolithic state, there is society.

And globally and in history societies have invented quite a number of ideas for stabilizing themselves:

- Kings, priests and gods

- heroism up to devoting the own life

- marriage, tribes, states

- ideas like "human rights"

- ideas like "free will"

So I am quite happy with being indoctrinated to "human rights", "free will", peace, and European integration. And I hope that indoctrinating our youth with these ideas contributes to a good pension for me and to a life in a stable, lifeworthy society.

P.S.:

And the other issue with your article is Hitler. Once again the last resort when running out of arguments: he did it and so it is wrong. Usually Hitler is used as an argument when foreign politicians want to raise money or want to silence Germany (as the Greeks recently). Obama even did it and had his first trip to Germany as a "private trip" to visit some concentration camp before coming officially. Just appeasing some influential fellow contrymen. Do use this if you see Hitlerjugend, Junge Pioniere or GST on the rise. But don't use it when talking about the school system!

Hi Antrodemus:

you are quoting

Artikel 148 (of the old Weimar Reichsverfassung)

In allen Schulen ist sittliche Bildung, staatsbürgerliche Gesinnung, persönliche und berufliche Tüchtigkeit im Geiste des deutschen Volkstums und der Völkerversöhnung zu erstreben.

Beim Unterricht in öffentlichen Schulen ist Bedacht zu nehmen, daß die Empfindungen Andersdenkender nicht verletzt werden.

Staatsbürgerkunde und Arbeitsunterricht sind Lehrfächer der Schulen. Jeder Schüler erhält bei Beendigung der Schulpflicht einen Abdruck der Verfassung.

Das Volksbildungswesen, einschließlich der Volkshochschulen, soll von Reich, Ländern und Gemeinden gefördert werden.

And commented:

"(There we go, moulding the nation. )"

Did you understand what you quoted?

"im Geiste des deutschen Volkstums und der Völkerversöhnung" sounds like Nazis?

"Das Volksbildungswesen" sound like Nazis?

That is the same as if you would scream "Nazi" when seeing "black, red and gold" flags or when hearing "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsche Vaterland".

Maybe, you have translated "Volksbildung" with "Nation building"? Even this would not count as Nazi.

But you may want to look up "Bildung". It is only "education". So "People's education". In its best social democratic tradition.

Hamster completely misunderstood what I was saying, and he should read it again. Incredible.

If I could delete the post, I would. It's too much effort.

The last 40 years of cultural history and sociology is calling.

Sorry, didn't want to be offensive. Just thought that a good discussion on this might be fun. But maybe I did not strike the right note. However, if I misinterpreted history or German society, please prove me wrong.

I agree, moulding the nation. In 1919 the German democracy came out of a world war and revolution which has established a democratic republic. There were obvious dangers both from the right and the left which in the end destroyed the Weimarer Republic and it had been burdened with a peace treaty which was interesting, to say the least. In that circumstance the law didn't allow teaching contents directed against the democratic constitution or promoting another war.

Considering the future events, this was hardly paranoid. In 1919 a large part of the teachers was against the democratic constitution and against the idea of a social democratic government and this paragraph allowed to fire them if they used the class-room for political indoctrination against the constitution.

But the compulsory school attendance was more of a socialist agenda, basically trying to establish a common school system instead of having the elite educate their children at home until they went to a private school for higher education. The people pushing for it were also in favour of a comprehensive school system. It's a little similar to the busing in the 60' and 70's in the USA which tried to create racially mixed schools instead of having segregation based upon the neighbourhoods..

I think you're not really addressing the point that Germany has a huge number of private schools which are not only tolerated but actually financed to a great extend by the state. I don't know the numbers but I'd bet that a greater percentage of students goes to a Catholic school in Germany than for example in the USA. These schools need to follow certain regulations, but they also have clearly stated educational aims differing from state schools.Again, I think that one of the main complaints of expats in Germany is that the German state doesn't offer sufficient possibilities of care for children in comparison to what they're used to, thus making it difficult for working moms. Whatever the reason, the German educational system keeps to a greater extend out of the life of the children than in most Western countries. And any increase of the involvement, i.e. afternoon school or more kindergarten places, is a result of demands by the parents which the state was very reluctant to give in to.

Assuming that your assessment of the German state is correct, I'd expect at least as long school hours and as many pre-school places as in other countries. But this isn't the case.I don't think it's a difference in the balance, it's just what people are used to. As an example, my family lived for a few months in the US when I was still in elementary school. There was a school within walking distance from our house but the line of the school district was in between, and we belonged to a school quite far away which required a bus ride. No chance at all to get into the close school. For my parents this was clearly against a right they were used to from Germany, the free choice of schools, and they felt powerless in the face of a senseless bureaucracy.

It is quite interesting that the family could afford to keep their kids out of public school in protest, thereby incurring large fines and attorney's fees (they went to court in Germany, see article linked below), but they couldn't afford to send them to a private religious school.

I doubt this family is Catholic, though. Most homeschooling families who do so for religious reasons in the US are evangelical.

I found an year-old article with more detail about the family's complaints against the German schools.And the German standpoint:

Most private religious schools in Germany are free of charge since they're nearly completely financed by the state.

Even more puzzling, then. Almost as puzzling as the question of how the concert pianist father is going to get work while living in Morristown, Tennessee.

Here's an opinion on the use of asylum in such cases from the "independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization," the Center for Immigration Studies:

cinzia, for the Romeikes even the most conservative Catholic school in Germany is a place where anti-Christian values and paganism are promoted.

Ha. I wonder what they thought of Halloween, then.

@Hamster: No worries.

@Hans: Great comments! I must excuse my pile of academic BS and dodgy facts.

@Cinzia: The last quote is good. Those people could have migrated to any number of other EU countries without needing to apply for asylum or anything else.

I am sure they were referring to Harry Potter books.... hehe

They're from southern Baden-Württemberg, Esslingen county southeast of Baden-Württemberg. 49.2% protestant, 29.1% catholic. Though they could of course also be pentecostal, adventist or belong to one of the multitudes of Free Churches that operate in that area. Those kinds seem to foster down there.

I believe I read in the Citizen Tribune, Morristown's local paper, that the family is Evangelical Christian.

And cinzia, Halloween in Morristown is, well, different than what I grew up with in the Chicago. Most kids in public school are allowed to wear costumes to school, but they can't dress up like anything scary. Almost every church has some sort of alternative function...like a "Trunk-or-Treat" or (ugh) a "Hell-House" instead of a regular haunted house. Times for local trick-or-treating are limited, and often the kids find little religious trinkets or tracts in their goodie bags.

Well, it's the same here in Minnesota now: scary costumes discouraged, some of the churches holding alternative events, etc. Also, it's so cold already by October 31 that the kids go trick-or-treating at the mall.

Different than my own childhood in Texas, where you didn't have to wear a coat over your costume!

My point was, homeschooling your children will not insulate them from the wider community and its values and traditions.

Absolutely. Homeschooling can even be less insulating than public school.

Once again, the EU/Schengen issue is one for the pundits, but not an appropriate subject for the court under US law.