Photo: DPA

New transport minister ignites debate over car toll for autobahn

Published: 5 Nov 09 10:40 CET
Updated: 5 Nov 09 12:03 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091105-23049.html

Transportation Minister Peter Ramsauer sparked a row over the introduction of road tolls in Germany on Thursday, flagging higher charges for car drivers then quickly backing off as the debate heated up.

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Ramsauer, from Bavaria's conservative Christian Social Union (CSU), told daily Passauer Neue Presse that the federal budget could no longer pay the cost of building motorways and mooted road tolls for passenger cars, or PKW-Maut, as a solution.

“We want the road system to be more strongly financed by users,” Ramsauer said. “The vehicle charge (on trucks) was a start. To reduce the dependence of the necessary capital spending on the federal budget, we want all options on the table and to be examined."

But later, he said in Berlin that “no mention of a PKW-Maut is actually in the coalition agreement” and that a road toll was therefore not on the agenda.

The Federation of Taxpayers quickly slammed the road toll idea as "a scam."

"The Pkw-Maut is an old idea being revitalised to create revenue opportunities," federation chief Reiner Holznagel told the Leipziger Volkszeitung. "The driver is still the Finance Minister's cash cow."

But the Premier-elect of Baden-Württemberg, Stefan Mappus, came out in favour of tolls, saying they should be introduced by 2013.

"I hope that we can even implement it in this legislative period, because every year without tolls is a year of lost revenue," he told Financial Times Deutschland.

Tolls would raise revenue from foreign vehicles by 20 percent, he said.

Presently the road charge for the autobahn is imposed only on goods vehicles such as trucks, which is called the LKW-Maut, but Ramsauer indicated it could be expanded to all vehicles.

Trucks pay a road charge in Germany based on the distance driven, the size of the vehicle and its carbon emission rating. The toll charge was introduced in 2005, partly as a way of charging foreign freight vehicles for using German motorways.

The average truck pays about 15 cents per kilometre and most tolling is done automatically.

Ramsauer said he would soon be setting up an expert panel to consider the options.
He stressed there would be no increase in the rate of tolls on trucks while the economy was struggling.

DDP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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11:46 November 5, 2009 by Steven192
The bit about users to bear a greater burden of the cost really grates.

Every single vehicle pays an astounding amount in tax, road tax, tax on fuel, tax on the tax on fuel etc etc etc and this money is just siphoned off by the government to spend on oneleggedlesbiandwarfoutreachcenters or whatever and this bellend says we have to pay more?

If all the tax paid on vehicles was used solely for road building/repair then they could tarmac over about 50% of the whole damn country.
11:51 November 5, 2009 by Small Town Boy
Drivers are actually still pretty heavily subsidised, if you measure the true costs of motoring. That's not just filling in potholes; it stretches as far as the healthcare costs of treating asthma patients. And you can't even put a price on the environmental damage.

A motorway toll would work in Germany because drivers would be prepared to pay for the thrill of driving at high speeds. In the UK, the speed-limit difference between a motorway and an A-road is only 10mph, so a toll there would result in a lot of traffic displacement onto smaller roads.
11:59 November 5, 2009 by Steven192
If you are going to count negative side effects then you have to also count the positives.

Yes there is environmental damage but how much more wealth is created because we have cars and don't have to ride the horse to work.

You really think that Mr Average commuter gets a thrill out of driving down the autobahn every morning and evening? Not a chance.
12:02 November 5, 2009 by minga
A motorway toll would work in Germany because drivers would be prepared to pay for the thrill of driving at high speeds.
Not sure. Checkout the rush of German registered vehicles driving through Bregenz to avoid the 2 EUR corridor vignette.
13:33 November 5, 2009 by gordonthemoron
they could charge parking fees on A8 between Munich & Salzburg
14:37 November 5, 2009 by Hutcho
I wouldn't mind if they had a Maut like Austria, as long as they had a petrol price to match or reduced other road taxes by the same amount. Then at least all the Dutch driving to Italy/Austria each Summer/Winter can pay their share of the upkeep, like we have to do when we drive in basically every other country in Europe.
14:46 November 5, 2009 by don_riina
the federal budget could no longer pay the cost of building motorways and mooted road tolls for passenger cars
If they're looking for ways to increase tax revenue, why don't they just legalise and tax weed? They'd make a crapload in tax revenue, and could also save money due to the police not having to waste time on stopping and searching people with long hair in the vague hope of finding half a spliff.

The best thing about legal weed would be that some uptight stuffy little jerks on TT could start a thread about how disgusting it is that some bars allow people to smoke dope, and how the presence of dope smoke in bars essentially makes them prisoners in their own homes because they can never go out to any bars. I'm sure it would be a very interesting thread. Then, they could also start a thread on how the reputation system is broken, because somebody gave them a negative vote, when it is clear that their viewpoint is the correct one. Hours of TT fun.
15:46 November 5, 2009 by Steven192
If you think that the above pointless rant has any bearing on the topic in question then you may have been overdoing the weed today and should put down the keyboard and go and do something else instead.
16:21 November 5, 2009 by bal00
I wouldn't mind if they had a Maut like Austria, as long as they had a petrol price to match or reduced other road taxes by the same amount. Then at least all the Dutch driving to Italy/Austria each Summer/Winter can pay their share of the upkeep, like we have to do when we drive in basically every other country in Europe.
Trouble is, the amount of foreign cars on German autobahns is negligible, especially considering how much it costs to set up and maintain such a system. Unless foreign cars (on their own) generate enough revenue to support the infrastructure, you might as well just raise fuel taxes.

Let's say you want to raise 10 billion euros. If you raise the fuel taxes by that amount, your overhead is zero, because the system to collect these taxes is already in place. If you want to raise 10 billion euros using a toll system and it costs 1 billion euros to implement/run, you need to collect at least 1 billion from foreign drivers, or else the 'fair' system where foreigners have to pay as well will cost German taxpayers more than the 'unfair' system where only the locals pay.

This may be a good system for small countries with a great number of foreign cars passing through (like Austria), but for a country like Germany the 'make foreigners pay their fair share' aspect seems more like populist window-dressing. I suspect they're coming forward with this because focus groups found tolls to be more acceptable than additional fuel taxes, regardless of whether it makes financial sense or not.
18:13 November 5, 2009 by HerrDinksbumps
The bit about users to bear a greater burden of the cost really grates.

Every single vehicle pays an astounding amount in tax, road tax, tax on fuel, tax on the tax on fuel etc etc etc and this money is just siphoned off by the government to spend on oneleggedlesbiandwarfoutreachcenters or whatever and this bellend says we have to pay more?

If all the tax paid on vehicles was used solely for road building/repair then they could tarmac over about 50% of the whole damn country.
Agreed..(sorry..) This place is already taxed to hell..
19:19 November 5, 2009 by Brown Sauce
If they do this, and I think it's only a matter of time, it won't be like the Austrian tax. It'll be like the truck tax, ie you'll pay per km, all the hardware is already there.

So all the smaller Bundesstrassen will be for the poor, and the autobahns for the bmw's audi's and mercs. Just like they want it.
02:22 November 6, 2009 by barbett
There are countries within the EU with higher car taxes than here (for example Denmark).

That has not slowed their economy.

Also, for who drives to work, the Pendlerpauschale can offset a good portion of the tax on fuel.
03:27 November 6, 2009 by Gorgo
It'll be like the truck tax, ie you'll pay per km
There is already a system in place that does exactly this ... called "tax on fuel" (Mineralölsteuer = 0.65 ?/Liter)

Works quite well actually and no need for any fancy device you have to buy.
05:16 November 6, 2009 by Bushdiver
For your information Gorgo the cost of living in the Scandinavian countries are considerably higher than here in Germany hence the pay is also better not to mention the fact that in Scandinavia they didn't screw there citizens by switching to the Euro like Germany did. Remember Pay is half what it was in D Marks while the cost of practically everything here has doubled. also @ Small Town Boy. You obviously are not living in Germany or are just plain naive. Although the German highways are the best in the world I for one would't pay extra so I could drive as fast as I want. Most of the time it's a crap shoot if your on the highway if you're going to wind up in some 20KM traffic jam. What amazes me the most is that these overpaid politicians that are elected to office never seem to do much for the average citizen but are always looking for a way to steal more money from the working people here. Maybe they should consider a pay cut to help thins along.
09:00 November 6, 2009 by MrNosey
Also, for who drives to work, the Pendlerpauschale can offset a good portion of the tax on fuel.
I agree and this would be far cheaper and easier to implement than a toll system. They already tried this though and apparently it is not constitutional to change the tax regime in Germany. [/anger]
10:03 November 6, 2009 by Hutcho
Maybe they should be more careful about what roads they are renovating and redoing. For example, I saw them rip up Ackermannstrasse, which was a perfectly good road, and re-lay it.

If you drive out on the A96, they are currently "fixing" one of the tunnels going out there. Check it out sometime. This tunnel is freaking perfect. I'm convinced that they just get budgets and have to spend them or they won't get them the next year. A large percentage of what goes on is surely wastage.
10:04 November 6, 2009 by Owain Glyndwr
According to a statement by BMW analysing the coalition's policies, they have have no intention of introducing a PKW-Maut, so this is probably just one politician spouting off.
Entgegen früherer Zeitungsberichte aus den Verhandlungen zum Koalitionsvertrag gibt es in der Abschlussfassung nun keine Überlegungen mehr zur Einführung einer PKW-Maut. Dafür wurde erstmals schriftlich in einem Koalitionsvertrag die Ablehnung eines allgemeinen Tempolimits auf Autobahnen festgehalten.
10:11 November 6, 2009 by Steven192
Yep seems as if Mr Ramsauer has totally backtracked on what he said, in fact he is blameing the press for twisiting what he actually did say.

Personally I think he let slip what the government are planning but we proles aren't supposed to know about it just yet.

Cynical? Moi?
10:33 November 6, 2009 by fraufruit
Just take ? 100 off of every Dutch Karavan/Wohnwagen that crosses at any German border. Sorted.
10:43 November 6, 2009 by barbett
Yep seems as if Mr Ramsauer has totally backtracked on what he said, in fact he is blameing the press for twisiting what he actually did say.
Berlusconi is still the master in saying one thing and blaming the press the day after for twisting it, but I see his style is spreading.
Personally I think he let slip what the government are planning but we proles aren't supposed to know about it just yet.
I don't think that's cynical. Often electoral promises of lower taxes are forgotten the week after the election, or some other tax is increased to make up.
14:01 November 6, 2009 by Brown Sauce
If they do this, and I think it's only a matter of time, it won't be like the Austrian tax. It'll be like the truck tax, ie you'll pay per km, all the hardware is already there.

So all the smaller Bundesstrassen will be for the poor, and the autobahns for the bmw's audi's and mercs. Just like they want it.
There is already a system in place that does exactly this ... called "tax on fuel" (Mineralölsteuer = 0.65 ?/Liter)

Works quite well actually and no need for any fancy device you have to buy.
The tax on fuel is a universal tax, the motorway truck tax ain't.
14:20 November 6, 2009 by MrNosey
The tax on fuel is a universal tax, the motorway truck tax ain't.
And? Fuel tax is directly related to use. The more kms I drive the more I pay in tax = pay for usage.
14:28 November 6, 2009 by MadAxeMurderer
Brilliant idea. Or just raise the tax on fuel. Certainly VAT on bicycles, and MVV tickets should not be used to finance road building so motorists can pump more pollution into the air.

Someday we might have to flush the excess CO2 out of the air, and that will be expensive. so if fuel had 10 times as much tax as it currently has, it would not pay for the true cost of burning it. So I do get a bit hot under the collar about drivers complaining that the massive amounts of tax they pay on fuel not being put to make their driving expereince even more wonderful.
14:31 November 6, 2009 by MrNosey
Someday we might have to flush the CO2 out of the air, and that will be expensive.
More than expensive, it'd be deadly.
14:34 November 6, 2009 by Small Town Boy
If you drive out on the A96, they are currently "fixing" one of the tunnels going out there. Check it out sometime. This tunnel is freaking perfect. I'm convinced that they just get budgets and have to spend them or they won't get them the next year. A large percentage of what goes on is surely wastage.
Oh come on, you can't seriously believe they just do this work for fun. Occasionally whizzing through a tunnel at 120 km/h scrunched up in your car does not put you in a good position to judge the tunnel to be "perfect". When bouncing over the countless potholes in Freising's roads, I always wonder why so little road maintenance seems to be undertaken.
14:49 November 6, 2009 by Hutcho
There was no pot holes in either of these roads. I do honestly believe some of these projects are done to use budgets.
15:06 November 6, 2009 by Small Town Boy
I wasn't suggesting that there were potholes in those roads. My point was that it's unlikely they would be doing unnecessary work when there's lots that still does need doing.
16:10 November 6, 2009 by Steven192
Depends on where the money is coming from. The budget for tunnels and Autobahns is probably different from the budget for patching up your local highstreet.

Using up the budget because if you don't it will be cut next year is not an unknown phenomenon.

So it is very possibe that while the work they are doing is not uneccessary it might be that the money could be better spent elsewhere.
16:51 November 8, 2009 by Brown Sauce
And? Fuel tax is directly related to use. The more kms I drive the more I pay in tax = pay for usage.
and you'll pay more if you use the motorway. You like the idea? I honestly don't see your argument. Maybe you just want one ...

At any rate, it'll be fine for the Audi driver who can still afford to burn the track at 200 kms plus, but the rest of us will pay up too, or cram ourselves on the already too busy B roads.
12:16 November 16, 2009 by Steven192
So it seems the Dutch are going to bite the bullet and have a car toll for all cars on all roads as from 2012

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2009/11/cabinet_finalises_road_pricing.php

They are going to scrap the yearly car/road tax and you will have to pay by vehicle type/distance traveled/when you travel.

Each car will need a GPS box installed to enable billing, probably as part of the local version of the TUV/MOT.

Wonder what they are going to do about tourists?

Are we going to have to stop at the border again in order to buy a "pickerl" or whatever?

Won't be very long before it happens here now.
13:27 November 16, 2009 by Eck Spatz
They are going to scrap the yearly car/road tax and you will have to pay by vehicle type/distance travelled/when you travel.
Seems fair enough - the more you drive, the more you pay. That way people might start to think about whether their journey by car is really necessary or not, as opposed to using other cheaper, more efficient forms of transport.
17:23 November 16, 2009 by jmjdk
Berlusconi is still the master in saying one thing and blaming the press the day after for twisting it, but I see his style is spreading.

I don't think that's cynical. Often electoral promises of lower taxes are forgotten the week after the election, or some other tax is increased to make up.
There is just one problem, Berlusconi owns a great many of the news outlets.

I have just one question. Where the hell is all the tax money (auto, petrol, etc.) that the German Gov. collects going, certainly not to the building, repair, & upkeep of the roads, if there is talk of raising/starting a road tax.
20:56 November 16, 2009 by Brown Sauce


They are going to scrap the yearly car/road tax and you will have to pay by vehicle type/distance traveled/when you travel.


Each car will need a GPS box installed to enable billing, probably as part of the local version of the TUV/MOT.

Won't be very long before it happens here now.
now, that surely is a doubling of the fuel tax .. or at least a rational increase
21:27 November 16, 2009 by BattalionBoy
I propose they tax cyclists and pedestrians. These ponces are the only ones getting a free ride. I bet they are using automobile related taxes to pay for those sidewalks and cycle paths. Let's say 500 yoyos a year for each of them for starters.
09:03 November 17, 2009 by HerrDinksbumps
Here here.. It's an all out war between cyclists and drivers in many big cities.. Can't stand how cyclists will line up in traffic among cars, stick their arms out to indicate, all the while being slower than normal traffic, but acting as if they're part of it.. GET OUT OF THE WAY!!
12:15 November 17, 2009 by Hutcho
Each car will need a GPS box installed to enable billing, probably as part of the local version of the TUV/MOT.
I can't begin to explain how stupid this is. If they want to tax people on the amount they drive, why not just raise the fuel taxes? It's at least good to see that Germany aren't the only ones that like bureaucracy and unnecessary overheads.
12:21 November 17, 2009 by Small Town Boy
The GPS system allows the pricing to be varied according to the time of day and which road you use. Therefore prices are higher on busy roads at busy times of day, and cheaper on quieter roads at less busy times. So it adds another layer to the fuel tax, which only taxes the number of miles driven and the fuel (in)efficiency of the vehicle. It has the power to reduce congestion by altering driving behaviour.
15:02 November 17, 2009 by Hutcho
It also allows them to track exactly where you've been and are going if need be. Driving on busy roads and having to wait (and burning more fuel) is reason enough to not leave at rush hour. This solution is overly complex, and frankly awful in every respect.
15:30 November 17, 2009 by Small Town Boy
I actually think it's brilliant. Train and plane users have to pay more at busy times, so why shouldn't the same principle be extended to car drivers? The days of the "freedom of the open road" are long gone and things are only going to get worse.

And when they link the technology to speed limits in order to measure average speed over a given route, then speeding drivers will be a thing of the past, making the roads safer as well as less congested.
15:31 November 17, 2009 by long-haul
I wouldn't want Big Brother watching me all the time.
15:33 November 17, 2009 by Small Town Boy
Ha, a bit late for that now.
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