What is in there? Photo: DPA

Government to get special swine flu vaccine

Published: 18 Oct 09 12:00 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091018-22649.html

Just a week after it emerged that the German armed forces was getting a different kind of A/H1N1 vaccine to the general population, Der Spiegel magazine reports that the government will also get special treatment.

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The general population will be offered the GlaxoSmithKline vaccine, called Pandemrix, which contains a new booster element, or adjuvant, as well as a preservative containing mercury.

Controversy has grown around the rapid licensing of the GSK vaccine – and a similar one being made by Novartis. Critics said not enough testing had been conducted before European licensing authorities rushed an approval.

Chancellor Angela Merkel, her cabinet members and ministry civil servants as well as those working for other agencies will get Celvapan, produced by US firm Baxter, which does not have the adjuvant or the preservative, according to Der Spiegel.

It is thought the adjuvant may lead to a stronger reaction in the patient – which to a certain degree is the point, meaning the vaccine can contain less of the virus yet still provoke the crucial immune system reaction.

But this is also what some say is the additional risk – and has led to stocks of the traditional kind of vaccine being bought in for pregnant women and young children.

Celvapan does not contain the adjuvant or the preservative. Rather, it contains entire dead viruses rather than the pieces which are in the traditional vaccine. The Baxter version is the one being given to the armed forces, as well as being made available for pregnant women and children.

It seems now that ministers and civil servants are to be included in that category.

“We have bought 200,000 doses of the non-adjuvanted vaccine Celvapan from the company Baxter,” Christoph Hübner, spokesman for the Interior Ministry confirmed to Der Spiegel.

It will be used for "state servants responsible for the maintenance of public order," the magazine reported. Next to members of the cabinet and civil servants, this includes staff of the Paul Ehrlich Institute, which took the decision to order the new vaccine from GSK for the rest of the country. No explicit reason was offered as to why they should get the Baxter vaccine rather than the GSK version.

Chairman of the German Medical Association’s Drug Commission Wolf-Dieter Ludwig said the situation was a scandal. “We are unhappy about this vaccination campaign,” he said. The point of it was unknown, he suggested. “The health authorities have succumbed to a campaign by the pharma companies, which simply want to earn money from a supposed threat.”

Meanwhile some medical associations are advising their members not to administer the new vaccine. President of the German Association of General and Family Medicine, Michael Kochen, has called on German general doctors not to give it to patients. “The risks outweigh the benefits,” he said.

Wolfram Hartmann, president of the Association of Paediatricians, accused the government of making false scientific statements. He said children under the age of three should not be given the shots.

“The vaccine has not been tested on them, thus the risk is simply too great for it to be used,” he said, adding that children’s immune systems tend to overreact, which could be exacerbated by the adjuvants. He also criticised the use of mercury-containing preservatives. “One has deliberately kept this stuff out of vaccines for small children,” he said.

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

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Your comments about this article:

#1
13:31 October 19, 2009 by RealityCheck
When is everyone going to realise that this is another attempt at global mass murder and illegal depopulation of the planet by non-elected global government!
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#2
14:39 October 19, 2009 by Brown Sauce
every one should read this. The most outrageous piece of manipulation since the 30's 40's.

Squalene, in short "gulf war syndreome", and our old friend thimerosol, 49.4 % mercury.

anyone think that they'll let their family be injected with this stuff?
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#3
14:58 October 19, 2009 by katekatekoala
But this is also what some say is the additional risk ? and has led to stocks of the traditional kind of vaccine being bought in for pregnant women and young children.
And yet these mass murderers are nice enough to spare the pregnant women and children. How nice.

Go grow some brains, please.
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#4
16:15 October 19, 2009 by Brown Sauce
to me it's rubbish anyway. It's the flu , but, why should the govt. and the govt. forces be given something that doesn't contain known poisons?

and by the way, we don't "grow" brains. We have to use what we were given. As they used to say at school, "could try harder".

edit

Wolf Dieter Ludwig, head of the medicines commission of the association of German doctors, called the decision by the government to take a different vaccine from the untested and toxic swine flu jab destined for the rest of the population a "scandal" of a dimension that can hardly be communicated to the general public. "The health authorities have fallen for a campaign from the pharmaceutical companies, who just want to earn money with an illusory threat," Ludwig said. Vaccines with adjuvants have not been tested on pregnant women and children even though the German govenrment has said these are priority groups. Among the government officials to get the "swine flu" jab without mercury and adjuvants will be the employees of the Paul Ehrlich Institute, the government drug regulator which ordered "swine flu" jabs with mercury and squalene to the rest of the population.
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#5
17:35 October 19, 2009 by Brown Sauce
and I suppose those with fully grown brains will accept blindly whatever vaccine, injection, however untested, because none of this stuff has been tested, as good for pregnant mothers, and their own young children?

Especially when it comes from powerful people who have already said that the stuff to be given to the plebs is potentially too harmful for themselves and their army/armies?
Report abuse »
#6
17:39 October 19, 2009 by katekatekoala
If you read the article properly, dear, it says the pregnant and young will have access to the "safe" vaccine that the powerful, evil overlords are getting.
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#7
20:18 October 19, 2009 by Brown Sauce
if you took the time to read my post, you would learn that no vaccine has been tested. There is no "safe" vaccine.

If you are prepared to let your children, if you have any, get injected with untested vaccines just because a politician says that it's ok, then I honestly feel sorry for you and your kids.

_______________________________________

The vaccine has been "developed" by Baxter Vaccines, they have a nice corporate looking website, that tells you all they want you to know, here,

http://www.baxtervaccines.com/

The thing about Baxter is that it's dirty.

Baxter uses BSL 3 (Biosafety Level 3) precautions in its laboratories, a system for the safe-handling of toxic substances, which makes an accidental contamination of ordinary flu material with the dangerous bird flu virus virtually impossible.

What they would prefer you not to know is that Baxter manufactured an influenza material which was contaminated with a bird flu virus in its biomedical research laboratories in Orth on the Danube in December 2008. Virtually impossible with BSL 3.

The contaminated vaccine material contained a mixture of a seasonable H3N2 human influenza virus and the deadly H5N1 virus. By adding a virus of the type H5N1 to an ordinary flu virus of the type H3N2, Baxter produced a highly dangerous biological weapon with a 63 per cent mortality rate.

The H5N1 virus is restricted in its human-to-human transmissibility, especially because it is less airborne.

However, when it is combined with seasonal flu viruses, which are airborne and easily spread, a new flu virus is created which is unknown to the human immune system and which will have a severe impact on an unprotected population.

A deadly virus of this kind could spread around the world in a short time and infect millions and even billions of people.

Baxter distributed via Avir a number of these contaminated vaccines using false concealment and a false label to 16 laboratories in Austria and in other countries at the end of January/beginning of February, potentially infecting at least 36-37 laboratory staff, who had had to be treated preventively for bird flu and ordinary flu in hospital.

If you're still with me, you might as well read this,

http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/case-about-bird-flu/

Donald Rumsfeld would be proud. He might even smile, 'cause he holds the patent.

That's another story though, if you do some research into,

tamiflu, gilead sciences, george schultz, yes he was on board too, and donny rumsfeld,

I really hope you find out more than me.
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#8
21:26 October 19, 2009 by cinzia
RealityCheck and Brown Sauce, I was really pleased to learn that you will not be receiving the H1N1 vaccine. At least in the States, it's a little scarce right now, so that means my kid will get it a little quicker with idiots like you out of the way.

With any luck, you'll skip the vaccines for deadly diseases as well, and really be out of the way. The Darwin Effect, I think it's called.
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#9
18:46 October 20, 2009 by madlac
Cinzia, I'm glad that you learned to write, maybe you should start to learn to read also. Or maybe you just skipped the whole article?

Btw, you can have my vaccine, too :)
Report abuse »
#10
08:40 October 21, 2009 by Pleb
RealityCheck and Brown Sauce, I was really pleased to learn that you will not be receiving the H1N1 vaccine. At least in the States, it's a little scarce right now, so that means my kid will get it a little quicker with idiots like you out of the way.

With any luck, you'll skip the vaccines for deadly diseases as well, and really be out of the way. The Darwin Effect, I think it's called.
I cannot believe how some people think... are you even aware of the questions surrounding sqaulene and thimerosol? Does it not interest you that these compounds are not universally agreed upon as safe? Do you really want mercury coursing through the veins of your family?

If you examine the facts... (and baxter is only a small piece of a very large puzzle) anyone with the ability to critically analyse the facts will come up asking more and more valid questions.

The normal Flu kills approx 30,000 yearly in the US alone... the swine flu has so far managed approx 3000 worldwide (and the larger proportion of these deaths are from complications and not directly from swine flu itself)... the swine flu was given pandemic level 6 status very early. Pandemic level 6 from my understanding allows for the suspension of many rights enshrined in law in many countries.

Why have vaccine manufacturers been given immunity from prosecution/litigation for this particular "vaccine" if it is "safe as houses"?

The facts just do not add up. I for one will be avoiding this so called vaccine with vigour.
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#11
22:59 October 21, 2009 by Brown Sauce
before you let anyone inject your kids with anything do some bloody research.

you blindly slag me off, and yet have the whole internet to debunk what I've said.

fact is you can't be bovvered.

you'd prefer to let your kids be injected with mercury and squalene, before asking google a couple of simple questions, and reading the answers. Total time involved 10 mins.

never mind, go back to your soaps, wastrels.
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#12
07:25 October 23, 2009 by leprechaun63
cinzia + katekate = idots :) uneducated fools too :) The vaccine without the adjuvant and preservative(squalene and thimerosal(mercury) are NOT going to be readily available for the public, most countries have ordered very small amounts of this one and they are on back order so they won't be available for weeks if at all, so pregnant woman and children are being told to get the poisonous one because they supposedly don't have time to wait for the supposedly non toxic one.
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#13
08:08 October 23, 2009 by katekatekoala
Oh look, it added smiley faces. How cute. Now I can take his unimaginative, lowbrow insults so much better.

I only hate the merger with the Local when idiot idiots like these people join up and spout their nonsense, then fade back into cyberspace trolldom.
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#14
19:04 October 23, 2009 by leprechaun63
Well that blew another one of your theories katekate, now go back to the drawing board and come up with something intelligent to say.
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#15
17:12 October 25, 2009 by Brown Sauce
You read it though, and can't help but put some vitriolic comment, can you?

and that's all you do.

You're all the same. All who criticise those of us who actually look a little deeper than fox news, or the bbc come to that. No questioning comment, only poor attempts at pissing the furthest ...

trolls, rofl.
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#16
18:23 October 25, 2009 by cinzia
Listen, BS, I've been on this forum for years, with thousands of posts on hundreds of topics. Let's see, to date you have a grand total of seven posts, all but one on this thread.

Which one of us do you think is more likely to be a troll?
Cinzia, I'm glad that you learned to write, maybe you should start to learn to read also. Or maybe you just skipped the whole article?

Btw, you can have my vaccine, too
Don't need the vaccine, thanks. I'm not in the danger zone for age, occupation, or health condition. Plus, I've already had H1N1.
I cannot believe how some people think... are you even aware of the questions surrounding sqaulene and thimerosol? Does it not interest you that these compounds are not universally agreed upon as safe? Do you really want mercury coursing through the veins of your family?
In the US, you can request non-thimerosal vaccine.
before you let anyone inject your kids with anything do some bloody research.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I haven't done any research. You seem to think that anyone who reads the same articles as you will come to the same conclusion. Not so. It's called critical thinking.

But since you're so interested in the topic, I'll ask you the same question I've posed to others on this forum. WHY would the government intentionally poison, or allow to be poisoned, the same population from which they draw the only power they have?
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#17
18:54 October 25, 2009 by katekatekoala
WHY would the government intentionally poison, or allow to be poisoned, the same population from which they draw the only power they have?
Geeeeeeeeenau.
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#18
19:01 October 25, 2009 by Bipa
The German politicians should announce that they will give up their special stocks of swine flu shots for people in the highest risk groups, and instead take the "regular" one offered to the vast majority of the rest of the German population. That would go a long way towards reassuring ordinary folks and encouraging them to also get the shot.

I find it interesting that the US has done its best to corner the global market of the "safer" variant of the flu shot. That's another reason why Germany and other countries can only get limited supplies of it.
The federal government has spent $2 billion to buy about 250 million doses of vaccine and has pledged to buy enough to immunize every American if there is enough demand.
- First Swine Flu Vaccine Arriving in CitiesMeanwhile, there have been several production delays making it even tougher to get delivery of any version of the flu shot.
The delays are occurring around the globe, officials said, and are due to a series of manufacturing difficulties, as vaccine makers scramble to fill vast orders using an old technology that requires growing virus in chicken eggs.

The U.S. government wanted more single-dose syringes because they contain only very small amounts of thimerosal, a mercury-containing substance that causes concern among some people, he said. Multidose vials contain more thimerosal.
- Vaccine Output Falls Short

I'm in one of the lowest risk groups. Will I get the swine flu shot? Don't know yet. It's a tough call.
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#19
21:09 October 25, 2009 by Brown Sauce
"WHY would the government intentionally poison, or allow to be poisoned, the same population from which they draw the only power they have?"

In itself, not a bad question.

I don't think however that the govt. actually have any intent in this direction. I think that they've been hoodwinked the same as you.

There was a good program on ARD in the week, had a couple of govt people, and a couple of doctors. The doctors were taking the very same line as me, the govt singing the praises to the "vaccine". Go figure ... Wolf-Dieter Ludwig was there.

"The federal government has spent $2 billion to buy about 250 million doses of vaccine and has pledged to buy enough to immunize every American if there is enough demand."

hey look ... 2 billion beer tokens. .... if there is enough demand.

there you have it, plain and simple. $$$$$$$$$ as usual.

When the trial for this was going on, ie the first pig flu, I told folk that tamiflu was only a coining mechanism for the top dogs at gilead sciences. If you've read my posts you'll know who and what gilead are.

One afternoon on bbc 5 live, Liam Donaldson was asked how much exactly is Tamiflu costing the British govt. His answer was, "It's a confidential business secret". I paraphrase, 'cause I can't remember his exact words, but they were something like that.

Now, he wasn't asked anything about profit levels, or anything that might be regarded as secret or confidential, he was asked how much are the taxpayers of the UK paying Rumsfeld Schultz and co, for Tamiflu. How much was the official licence price. Something the taxpayers had a right to know.

Unfortunately the bbc "journalist" then let him off the hook, as they normally do, and took his way out, asking nothing further.

The official price, as far as I've been able to find out is something in the region of 100 dollars a hit ....

'course you can get it quicker and cheaper on ebay, but we're on about official prices. All this time I was saying that tamiflu was no cure anyway, was a pile of crap.

Hey!! Guess what, a little over two weeks after the Donaldson interview, the very same "journalist" came to the same conclusion. Saying that, it did little to help, and indeed may actually do more harm.

It was only a one off, not heard again. But the point is that they said it.

Now, what is the difference between tamiflu and the "vaccine".

I'm asking you now, 'cause for the life of me, I can't see any difference.

The vaccine cannot have been tested sufficiently. That in itself should be enough. But, it isn't. That the govt are going to be given a vaccine without squaline or thimerosal, should demand at least some questions. That they are being given this untested stuff says to me that they haven't asked enough questions.

doesn't cost much to ask ...
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#20
21:19 October 25, 2009 by cinzia
The vaccine cannot have been tested sufficiently. That in itself should be enough.
How do you come to that conclusion?

You do realize that the H1N1 vaccine is being made the exact same way, in the exact same labs and by the exact same companies that make the seasonal flu vaccine every year?

So do you contend that the seasonal flu vaccine is also not tested sufficiently every year?

As for Tamiflu prices, I couldn't tell you what they are. My case is mild and I don't need it. Nor do most people who get the flu.
"The federal government has spent $2 billion to buy about 250 million doses of vaccine and has pledged to buy enough to immunize every American if there is enough demand."

hey look ... 2 billion beer tokens. .... if there is enough demand.

there you have it, plain and simple. $$$$$$$$$ as usual.
So what are you contending here? That everyone will want the flu shot because it's free?
doesn't cost much to ask ...
Well, yes it does. All you people bringing up conspiracy theories might make people who need it not get the flu shot. Those people may get very ill and they might die. So, yeah, not to argue that people shouldn't ask questions, but it might cost a LOT to ask.
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#21
21:36 October 25, 2009 by Brown Sauce
it's not h1n1 ...
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#22
10:00 October 26, 2009 by Pleb
All you people bringing up conspiracy theories might make people who need it not get the flu shot. Those people may get very ill and they might die. So, yeah, not to argue that people shouldn't ask questions, but it might cost a LOT to ask.
Do these people not have the ability to collect and analyse the information themselves or are they really the docile, unintelligent fools that they are made out to be... incapable of making a decision based on self evaluated evidence. You are building a picture of a semi-hypnotised populace...

Don't discuss it because you might make people scared???

It may cost a lot more not to ask.
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#23
18:20 October 26, 2009 by cinzia
Sorry, but I prefer to collect and analyze the evidence coming from medical professionals and the Centers for Disease Control. Are you a doctor or epidemiologist? No? Then how do consider yourself more intelligent and capable of making a decision than myself, a fellow layperson?

I think it's highly ironic that some people on this thread are calling ME brainwashed, when they have not a jot of evidence that the 2009 H1N1 flu vaccine is in any way harmful to the people it is designed for, other than the listed possible side effects.

On the other hand, testing has been done to show that it is safe. Evidence for safety: yes. Evidence against safety: no, other than the listed side effects.

Does the seasonal flu vaccine severely sicken or kill significant numbers of people every year? No. The H1N1 vaccine is exactly the same, except that it has only one strain of flu represented, rather than the three or four strains that make up the seasonal flu vaccine.
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#24
21:13 October 26, 2009 by Brown Sauce
what testing exactly, could you point me to any independent tests? I'd really love to see some.

maybe you could also point out some independent squalene and thimerosal tests at the same time, they would surely be worth a peruse?

And we're talking of a/h1n1 btw ...
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#25
22:10 October 26, 2009 by cinzia
what testing exactly, could you point me to any independent tests? I'd really love to see some.
Trials of all medications seeking US FDA approval are designed and paid for by the pharmaceutical company or companies seeking approval. In addition, vaccine testing is done by the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, a department of the National Institutes of Health. Here's some information from the NIAID about H1N1 vaccine testing and how it's being carried out.

If you are asking for "independent" research separate from that conducted by NIAID and pharmaceutical companies according to FDA guidelines, you are expecting more research than what exists for any drug sold and marketed in the USA.

Think about it: other than the pharmaceutical companies who stand to profit from an approved medication (or lose a lot of money on clinical trials of a medication that is not eventually approved, which happens more often), and the government, which has an interest in the public health, who would pay for such research? You might be disappointed if you're hoping for more "independence" than that, but that's the situation for all drugs sold in the US, and I suspect that situation is no different anywhere else in the world.
maybe you could also point out some independent squalene and thimerosal tests at the same time, they would surely be worth a peruse?
Here's part of an article on thimerosal and its use in vaccines from the Public Health Agency of Canada. If you subcribe to the publications mentioned in this article (go to the article and cross-reference the footnotes), you can read the reports themselves, though I suspect they are not written for laypeople and it might be difficult for you to parse the data. Otherwise, you'll have to take Canada's word for it, but I'm presuming that would be more acceptable to you than the US government's word:
The theoretical concerns regarding an association between thimerosal exposure and subsequent development of autism or other neurologic disorders led to a review of the available evidence by the Immunization Safety Review Committee of the US Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2001, which was repeated in 2004 as new evidence became available. The October 2001 report(12) concluded that "the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposures from childhood vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders." It went on to state that "the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure through the recommended childhood immunization schedule [in the US] has caused neurodevelopmental disorders is not supported by clinical or experimental evidence." It also suggested that biologic plausibility, though possible, was at best indirect. Despite the absence of definite evidence of risk, the Committee still concluded that the prudent approach was to seek alternatives to thimerosal for use in vaccines and to remove thimerosal-containing vaccines from use in the US.

In 2004 the IOM reconvened to consider newly published evidence bearing on the proposed association between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism(13). This included epidemiologic studies from several countries (Denmark(14), Great Britain(15,16), Sweden(17) and the US(18)) using cohort and/or ecologic designs, as well as studies using passive surveillance data from the US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System. For those interested in further details, the report provides tabular summaries of all studies reviewed and a discussion in the text of key findings as well as the methodologic strengths and weaknesses of the different study designs. With these added data the Committee was able to conclude that "the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal containing vaccines and autism." The IOM added that since "all well designed epidemiological studies provide evidence of no association between thimerosal and autism, the Committee recommends that risk-benefit assessments regarding the use of thimerosal-containing versus thimerosal-free vaccines and other biological or pharmaceutical products, whether in the United States or other countries, should not include autism as a potential risk."

Since the 2004 IOM report additional publications have underscored the lack of association between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders(15,16,19,20).

Detailed studies involving multiple developmental analyses of school-aged children exposed to ethylmercury as part of US immunization programs before 1999 are under way, and publication of results is expected in 2007. A commentary on the theoretical association between thimerosal and autism was published in 2003 by two pediatric neurologists(21). This report clearly points out that the profile of neuroanatomic pathology and of clinical signs and symptoms associated with autism is different in many key aspects from that associated with mercury toxicity.
Squalene is not being used as an adjuvant in the H1N1 vaccine (or seasonal flu vaccine) given in the US. Consequently, I'm not interested in researching that one for you.

By the way, all this information has been found by easy internet searches, which you could do yourself. I'm not out to prove anything about the safety, or not, of the H1N1 vaccine, or any other vaccine. It just irks me when people blithely toss out unsubstantiated rumors in a situation where thousands of people worldwide are dead, and tens of thousands of people are very ill or hospitalized. I just can't let that kind of malignant intent stand without challenge.
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#26
23:02 October 26, 2009 by Brown Sauce
I'll say only one more time, it's a/h1n1.
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#27
23:15 October 26, 2009 by Brown Sauce
ok,

here's a more succinct question,

Where are the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies proving flu vaccines are both safe and effective?

doesn't matter where the qualified answer comes from ...
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#28
23:15 October 26, 2009 by katekatekoala
Oh BS (which I'm starting to think stands for "bullshit" rather than BrownSauce), the only reason you're harping on about it being "a/h1n1" rather than H1N1 is cause cinzia is handing you your arse on a cold silver plate. Stop nitpicking and maybe come up with a semi-intelligent counter argument.... if you can.

EDIT: And PLEASE do attempt to come up with a more reliable source than "http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/"

Bird flu 666? Seriously?
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#29
23:28 October 26, 2009 by katekatekoala
Squalene. You keep wailing about squalene.

Well, I took your advice, BS, and read up on it. Not on the crappy doomsday websites you frequent, but the chemical facts. Apparently, its a naturally occuring chemical in the human body. Its an important part of the process of cholesterol, vitamin D, and steroid hormones.

That's real sneaky of those damn pharma companies... putting substances into our bodies that are GASP... already there!
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#30
23:49 October 26, 2009 by delvek
Look people, this is a forum, for discussions and varying views, I think as many have pointed out, its important to "flesh out" and be concerned about all angles. There is no magic answer until you can look back and see what the outcome was/is ... since we cant do that, its important to look at everything and then make your best decision. I think their is a lot of credence to both sides but its important to recognize that swine flu is not new to this world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza

Further more, the people who got vaccinated in 1970 US outbreak AT THE TIME thought all was good. I personally have a friend who has Guillain-Barré Syndrome as a result of the vaccination, trust me, its horrible. He was vaccinated in the US Army as they were required to be.

Their are stories upon stories of vaccinations that have ruined lives especially when rushed, the CDC and government are under heavy pressure to respond to this, its easier to deal with the mess of bad vaccinations in order to give people a sense of comfort while the event is happening. Good hygiene and personal awareness goes a long way, this swine flu will pass, the difference between those that got vaccinated and those that didn't is that the ones that did, will always have that vaccine a part of their person.
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#31
00:06 October 27, 2009 by 8420PR
it's correct to question if the swine flu vacination is safe, and make your own mind up to have it or not. However, I don't think squaline is the risk, as it is in the seasonal flu vaccine that has been taken by millions.

I personally need to see a well balenced argument, instead of internet hotheads telling me not to take it.
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#32
00:06 October 27, 2009 by 8420PR
oops. double post.
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#33
00:10 October 27, 2009 by delvek
I for one never told people not to take, I dont think anyone on this forum is in a position to tell someone to take or not to take. I do feel comfortable discussing my views and my intentions, this way if enough do this then people can read varying views and make a decision. To sit here and blast each other like a bunch of 2nd graders in a sandbox, nah, wont do ...
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#34
00:12 October 27, 2009 by Brown Sauce
well done delvek ..

it's getting late, but katekatekoala, you did at least do some research, and I honestly thank you for that. You didn't do enough though ..

I'll tell you why tomorrow, but wikipedia will let very little light in with this as to most things, and http://birdflu666.wordpress.com seems to have finished in august, or sometime, at any rate that was the first time I've seen it ...

here's a clue. We need water, so we drink it. What happens if we breath it?
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#35
00:13 October 27, 2009 by cinzia
For the last time, delvek, the H1N1 vaccine was NOT RUSHED TO MARKET. The strains that go in the annual seasonal flu vaccine are chosen between January and March of every year. The decision to make a unique H1N1 vaccine was taken in April. The vaccine is made the same way, in the same labs, as every seasonal flu vaccine is made. Testing was done on the H1N1 vaccine in the exact same way as the annual seasonal flu vaccine.

Seasonal flu vaccine is made available in September of every year. The H1N1 vaccine in America was promised in October, but most of it won't be available till November or December.

You do the math. How can the H1N1 vaccine be said to have been rushed?

Again, if you have a problem with the annual seasonal flu vaccine and its testing and distribution, you will have a problem with H1N1. Do a significant number of people have serious side effects or die from the annual seasonal flu vaccine every year? No. Why would you then expect problems with H1N1?
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#36
00:18 October 27, 2009 by delvek
My God Cinzia I cant do this with you again, we all have read your glowing support of the vaccine, great, its okay for someone else to give their impressions on the matter without having you jump down their throat. Your allowed to your views and I respect that ... learn to respect others as well. Why are you so afraid of people disagreeing with you, your views don't bother me at the slightest.

ps. Do you work for the CDC?

married?

... yes, married, geez ... (slams door)
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#37
13:21 October 27, 2009 by Derekbeggs
Where are the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies proving flu vaccines are both safe and effective?
* I think the word you are looking for is efficacy or efficacious.

Here are the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled safety and efficacy studies...just three of the 100 or so current and ongoing studies in the US alone.

Sinovac Biotech Co., Ltd

A Double-blind, Randomized, Stratified and Controlled Clinical Trial With Split-virion and Whole-virion, Adjuvanted and Non-adjuvanted Influenza A/H1N1 Vaccines in Healthy Adults, Elders, Adolescents and Children

National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID)

Prevention, Randomized, Double Blind (Subject, Investigator, Outcomes Assessor), Parallel Assignment, Safety/Efficacy Study

A Phase II Study in Healthy Adult and Elderly Populations to Assess the Safety and Immunogenicity of an Unadjuvanted Sanofi Pasteur H1N1 Influenza Vaccine Administered at Two Dose Levels

Sanofi-Aventis

Immunogenicity and Safety of Multiple Formulations of an Intramuscular Inactivated, Split Virion Swine-origin A/H1N1 Influenza Vaccine With and Without Adjuvant in Healthy European Subjects Aged 6 to 35 Months

and so on...

Source
the difference between those that got vaccinated and those that didn't is that the ones that did, will always have that vaccine a part of their person.
An attenuated viremia will stay in the body for approximately two weeks. The bodys immune system is then able to successfully defend it against the virus. It is the b-cells of the immune system that retains a memory of how to fight the infection should it appear again. Sorry for the immunology 101, but it might be useful before making uninformed generalisations.
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#38
14:04 October 27, 2009 by Steven192
It is a cunning and deadly plan. The cops and other organs of the state get given the antidote then the sick lame and lazy get given the actual flu which will kill off a good proportion of those that are costing the krankenkasse so much money.

Next phase is pregnant women - they get the antidote as well because they are needed to repopulate the place.

When it then comes to the rest of the populace, who having seen all the fatalities from the flu will all be desperate to get the "cure".. well what you get all depends on who and what you are, which demographic do you fit?

This and other conspiraloon theories brought to you by "The shape shifting lizards are taking over my brain Gmbh" in association with "The Tinfoil Hat Makers Cooperative".
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#39
14:11 October 27, 2009 by cinzia
My God Cinzia I cant do this with you again, we all have read your glowing support of the vaccine, great, its okay for someone else to give their impressions on the matter without having you jump down their throat. Your allowed to your views and I respect that ... learn to respect others as well. Why are you so afraid of people disagreeing with you, your views don't bother me at the slightest.
Do you understand the difference between facts and opinion (or, in your parlance, "views")? I have told you before, this is not a matter of opinion.

Why is it that you think your "views" should hold the same weight as facts, anyway?
ps. Do you work for the CDC?
No. Do you watch FOX News?
married?

... yes, married, geez ... (slams door)
Not that it has anything to do with the present discussion, but yes. Twice.
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#40
16:11 October 27, 2009 by Brown Sauce
I was actually looking for are some results Derek, before I consent to have myself and family injected with copious amounts of cod liver oil and mercury. All these "trials" are ongoing or planned. There is no safe and tested a/h1n1 vaccine, with or without squalene and thimerosal.

Interesting too, that after 1976, and the litigations that followed that fiaso, Ms Sibelius the US Secretary of Health and Human Services, issued a decree that grants vaccine makers total legal immunity from any lawsuits that result from any new ?Swine Flu? vaccine.

nice.

Interesting too is that Baxter, in who's labs the virtually impossible meeting of h1n1 and a seasonal flu took place in Dec 2008, have filed to patent an h1n1 vaccine. Lol. And the rest, H2N2, H3N2, H5N1, H7N7, H1N2, H9N2, H7N2, H7N3, H10N7 subtypes, of the pig flu H1N1, H1N2, H3N1 and H3N2 subtypes, of the dog or horse flu H7N7, H3N8 subtypes or of the avian H5N1, H7N2, H1N7, H7N3, H13N6, H5N9, H11N6, H3N8, H9N2, H5N2, H4N8, H10N7, H2N2, H8N4, H14N5, H6N5, H12N5 subtypes. !!

nice.

Obama has given 7 billion us beer tokens to fast track vaccinations for influenza.

nice for baxter and glaxosmithkline.

you can hear 'em now, if you listen a bit ...

we're in the money, we're in the money, we're in the money, we're in the money, we're in the money, ....
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#41
16:16 October 27, 2009 by Brown Sauce
oh, yes. That lil teaser I left you with katekatekoala.

squalene is indeed part of our makeup. It's an oil.

I love olive oil. In salads and in the frying pan.

I wouldn't like to say what would happen if I put some in me arm ....
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#42
16:35 October 27, 2009 by Steven192
Injecting oil into your arm? Some people do it a lot
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#43
22:27 October 27, 2009 by Mariposa
What is interesting is that I think not a lot of Germans are really planning on getting vaccinated. Another (German) forum I am a member of opened a poll on this. 110 people said they would not get the vaccine, 21 said they haven't decided yet, and only 4 said they would get it.

But I suppose the situation is a little different in the US where the virus seems a lot more widely-spread.

As for the government getting a different vaccine. Is this by any chance due to one being sold in ampules containing more than one dose as opposed to just one dose (that would be the one the government gets)? I remember reading something like that somewhere.
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#44
23:02 October 27, 2009 by delvek
Do you understand the difference between facts and opinion (or, in your parlance, "views")? I have told you before, this is not a matter of opinion.

Why is it that you think your "views" should hold the same weight as facts, anyway?
sigh, I hope your not like this in real life ...

I dont watch any news on television or anywhere really, I don't care for tv too much and I find my time spent with the family, etc a better return.

The marriage line was a classic volley of words in Sixteen Candles by Long Duk Dong, sorry you didn't pick up on it or its meaning for my posting it.

Well, internet is getting shut off for my move this week, was a blast conversing, more seriously though ... found some good info and will come back again while living in Germany to search stuff, etc ... best wishes all.
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#45
00:01 October 28, 2009 by cinzia
But I suppose the situation is a little different in the US where the virus seems a lot more widely-spread.
I think there are actually at least two possibilities in play here. Yes, H1N1 is not nearly as widespread in Germany as it is in the US at the moment.

In addition, a lot of Americans will be getting the vaccine (if it becomes available before they get sick) because many Americans don't get paid sick time off work. I personally find it very scary that restaurant workers, for example, almost never get paid to just stay home from work. Instead, they'll go in and sneeze on your table, your food, etc.
As for the government getting a different vaccine. Is this by any chance due to one being sold in ampules containing more than one dose as opposed to just one dose (that would be the one the government gets)? I remember reading something like that somewhere.
Right. Thimerosol is not a necessary component in single-dose ampules. In multi-dose ampules, it's a necessary preservative. If the government ordered all single-dose ampules for their vaccine, they are getting one without thimerosol.
sigh, I hope your not like this in real life ...
What are the chances? It's true I have little patience for people who freely admit they don't inform themselves by paying attention to the news in any form, but then insist on posting nonsense anyway and then claiming that I just "disagree with their viewpoint" when I call them out on their ignorance of the issue at hand.

If I'm not mistaken from your other posts, you have two kids under the age of 18, and a pregnant wife who works in a hospital. All of them, but especially your wife, should get the H1N1 vaccine, and I consider it a public service to get under your skin about it, if I can.
I dont watch any news on television or anywhere really, I don't care for tv too much and I find my time spent with the family, etc a better return.
'Nuff said.
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#46
08:25 October 28, 2009 by Pleb
What are the chances? It's true I have little patience for people who freely admit they don't inform themselves by paying attention to the news in any form, but then insist on posting nonsense anyway and then claiming that I just "disagree with their viewpoint" when I call them out on their ignorance of the issue at hand.

If I'm not mistaken from your other posts, you have two kids under the age of 18, and a pregnant wife who works in a hospital. All of them, but especially your wife, should get the H1N1 vaccine, and I consider it a public service to get under your skin about it, if I can.
It is your certainty and arrogance that amuses me. There are conflicting views on the subject... You are not spouting facts... You think that the governing bodies that decide this aren't subject to influence? The head of the FDA has been a revolving door between the companies that are controlled and the oversight position itself. Look it up!
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#47
09:51 October 28, 2009 by 7sins
The FDA and other regulatory bodies are supposed to be independent however this is not the case for some products. Money, corporations and government pressure plays a huge part on the decision making for release to market. New products take decades from development to commercial manufacturing, this vaccine clearly has taken a short cut.

Anyhow facts are, these companies do have the experience for vaccine manufacturing and do meet international regulatory guidelines, specifically GMP. The vaccine itself still undergoing efficacy trials but it is already a huge money boom.

I think people should look at the data critically and interest playing on this issue. When dealing with pharmaceuticals especially biopharmaceuticals, this kind of issues are not black or white, the truth is in between, people should make an informed decision based on facts plus independent advise/research etc.

I have decided that the "facts" are not good enough for me or my family. There are different formulations for the swine vaccine, the one containing squalene should be carefully scrutinized, I personally would never take a pharmaceutical product containing squalene in the formulation...

Also makes you wonder why so many health-related professionals are refusing taking this vaccine...

7

Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of inert facts.
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#48
13:25 October 28, 2009 by cinzia
It is your certainty and arrogance that amuses me. There are conflicting views on the subject... You are not spouting facts...
Pleb, there is room for conflicting views on some of the issues surrounding vaccines in general, and flu vaccines and H1N1 vaccines in particular, sure.

But not, for example, whether approval of the H1N1 vaccine was "rushed", as delvek contends. Unless you insist that the seasonal flu vaccine is rushed to market every single year.

You will not find me contending that squalene or thimerosal are safe, for example. I don't know anything about squalene, because it's not included in US vaccines. Thimerosal is supposedly safe in the small amounts in the vaccine, but I'm saying you can request vaccine without it, if you have concerns.
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#49
15:08 October 28, 2009 by 8420PR
You will not find me contending that squalene or thimerosal are safe, for example. I don't know anything about squalene, because it's not included in US vaccines. Thimerosal is supposedly safe in the small amounts in the vaccine, but I'm saying you can request vaccine without it, if you have concerns.
As per WHO, squaline has been used in 22 million seasonal flu vaccinations since 1997.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/Jun_2006/en/index.html

I'm searching for a balanced argument - but based on all facts and opinion I've heard to date, the presence of squaline would not stop me taking the injection.

That said, in previous years after being offered the seasonal flu vaccine (free by employer) I always chose to decline, and I don't see this year being any different. I'm invincible....
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#50
15:56 October 29, 2009 by cinzia
Yeah, I thought I was invincible, too. I still have H1N1 symptoms, including on-and-off low fever, over two weeks after the first ones appeared. This flu hangs on forever!
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