Bundesbank's Sarrazin stripped of duties for xenophobic comments

Well good riddance.

The difference is the way in which Germany has treated generations of Turks. This is an old topic which has been discussed numerous times on TT. Germans and Germany wanted cheap uneducated labour to do the dirty work for them. They got the Turks. The Turks stayed after having done quite a bit of work in rebuilding Germany. The Turks in Germany were and have been treated as second class citizens from the very beginning. There has been little or no effort on the part of Germany and your average German to learn anything about Turkish culture or to learn their language. What could it possibly hurt to learn a few Turkish words? Just to show some respect? Sure, it was damn dumb of the Turks not to learn German too. Their kids were born here, have lived here their whole lives and still get called Ausländer. Result of all this is that the Turks in Germany become more Turkish than the Turks living in Turkey. If you treat a people without respect, they will take refuge in their national identity and become over-patriotic. It is simply natural.

At the moment there is a seriously worrying trend towards the right throughout the whole of Europe. You complain about the welfare money spent on a bunch of Turkish families? How much has been lost as a result of the financial crises and who is to blaim for that? How does that compare to the amount of welfare money received by Turkish families? I am sorry, but I know far more lazy Germans living off the government, my tax money too, than Turks. I know and got to know Turks as being extremely hard-working and proud.

Germany does not need a left-wing politician spouting right-wing . If this is the message the LEFT is giving these days, oh boy, it's 1933 again. Only this time it's the Muslims. Shame on Germany.

A good man gets dumped because he speaks the truth......What a shame.....

That's a decent point.

My extended family on my mother's side includes non-assimilative religious radicals as well.They speak English when necessary, but heavily accented and prefer their own dialect. They have their own educational system and refuse military service.

But they're also a quaint tourist attraction for city folk and, at least up until now, have remained jihad-free whilst spreading across the continentP.S. I totally agree that the turks don't get a fair shake here. I identify more with them than anyone else, and deliberately direct my business their way ... which is a much better way to show solidarity than granting even more days off. These people want to be accepted as human beings, not patronized!

Well, this situation says a lot about the nation of Germany. If you were to really look at things overall, then you would come to realize that no one in Germany is happy or content. Disharmony in Germany's political system may just send the country into a deep and dark abis.

Germany is, as most of you may know, is Europe's most influential nation.

And history has shown that German policies usually have an enormous effect not only on Europe, but also on the the world as a whole.

And in some ways, it appears that no one is actually leading the country.

The world laughs at Germany but not for political reasons.

He deserves what he gets. People need to be accountable for what they say. In Germany you can't purposely insult someone, it's against the law. So to insult an entire group is just shamelful for anyone. We're in 2009 - let's try to adapt please.

Pathetic.. Some day there's gonna be a revolution against this kind of PC insanity...

What a crock of . The dude speaks the truth, and if you say "right on" for doing so, you get called a Nazi..

I am no admirer of Turks in general. I've met nice individuals here and there - but by and large I see large numbers of very unsavory-type characters - and that here in the East. (Have been threatened as far east as Lausitz ha ha!! "Was guckst du?!!", etc..) The West is a hundred times worse.. Will never totally like Nürnberg because of the impression I had when there that the center was so full of shady looking Turks.. But whatever - there is little doubt, as a subculture within Germany they are by and large un-willing and un-able to integrate. Just like the dude said.

And kebabs are fxxxing disgusting..

This xenophobic idiot should have been fired for such comments, as i read the other day some woman working for 35 years for a company was fired for taking a boulette!!! ok ok she got her job back in the end, but this man is suppose to be in a position of responsibility and someone people can look upto, he should be fired immediately and never allowed to work in such a position again, perhaps make him work as a fruit and veg sellar in a turkish district for some time, give him a little perspective on life, if you ever wonder why arabs and turish never make it in german society, he has just shown everyone why.....the guys a prize fool.

Actually, there's probably lawyers somewhere in Germany right now evaluating whether Sarrazin's comments fill the legal standard for Volksverhetzung (sedition against a particular part of the population). And they do come pretty close to it.

Sarrazin a Xenophobic? I DONT THINK SO ! I would say that the reactions from the German Government and the Media were simple PARANOIC. Sarrazin´s names is a French, Dutch, and German heritage mix, so HOW Can people think that he is Xenophobic?. Ridiculous. The problem here comes from different directions and start with The BRD that has the "nazi baggage" on their shoulders and the Turkeys and Arabs knows precisely how to push those buttons. I am an "Auslander" myself, I came to Germany 2006 and part of my integration process I attended to a course: 5 hrs per day, 5 days/week for 8 months and I could realize myself how the Turks and Arabs deal with the integration process. I ve found out that some of them were for already 3.200 hours (a course lasts 600 hours) At the end of the course, I got my B1 diploma and they went back to the beggining for another 600 hours, because as long as they stays in that course the Social Assistance will pay them monthly wage. After this course, I must says that they are slow for learning subjects or matters that follows logical thinking (like grammar) or abstract examples and when you try to talk to know them better, and ask some questions about life, general thinking, they react VERY emotionally and find themselves easily to be insulted without any reason, recalling the "Respect" , Just because they didnt understood the question. Ive conclude that they have a mental boarder, easily to reach. Of course a minority of Turks /Arabs people highly educated , completed integrated - for them my appreciation- they avoided the high presion from their peers. And If you are a woman, Forget it!. I remember 2 cases last year: a Turks girl , engineer (27 y.old) with a brillian future in an Oil company, was killed by her own brothers here in Germany. Another Turks/Arabs girl 14 years old, her own father killed her just because she didnt want to cover her hair in public. In their families minds this two girls were a disgrace!. And this happened because Turks and Arabs in Germany they strongly believe in keeping their heritage alive, WHATSOEVER and AT ANY COST. The girls wanted another choice , but there was none. And here I see where the bridge got broken. The young people want another world, they want opportunities without the weigth of guiltiness that their families put on them if they persue for more. The BRD must pay attention to the new generations, they are the Builders of that broken bridge. This kids needs to improve their emotional intelligence, a hard work to the schools: to implement Assimilation, Acculturation and THEN Integration. Therefore Mr. Sarrazin only pointed a STADISTICAL AND QUALITATIVE FACT: "many Arabs and Turks, whose numbers have grown because of the wrong policies, have no productive function" And In this statement, there is NO implicit insult. It is just some people has not understood the sentece.

Genau!!

Indeed ridiculous. I have never heard xenophobic has something to do with the genesis of name.In general, every human is the same, no one will react VERY emotionally if s/he is not provoked. Perhaps you dont understand their culture and u asked…[/quote]This is very misleading. Thats the reason why the west always has problem with Islamic world. They just dont understand and they are not willing to understand islam.No implicit insult? Perhaps u r the one who dont understand the sentence.

yeah, but come on, painting an entire ethnic group with the same brush "only good for selling veggies" is ridiculous, no matter what your opinions on "the scourge of islam in europe" are, and the comment is first dumb, and second, racist.

he could have chosen better words to make his statement.

Sarrazin is essentially right.

He is pissed off with Moslems who treat their women like dirt. So am I. One thinks of so-called "honour" murders, forced marriages, (enforced) wearing of the head-scarf. I find things like this despicable and as a male foreigner in Germany they makes my blood boil.

He could have added female circumcision, he could have added Moslems schoolboys who despise their female teachers because these teachers are female and he could have added those Moslem males who regard German women as whores because these women allegedly live "too freely". Moslem males with prejudices like these piss me off too.

And I don't like any bastard - wherever he comes from - who comes to Germany to bludge off the government and live from Hartz IV with my f***ing tax money.

Bundesbank is right to strip Sarrazin of his duties.

If the man wants to peddle race hate let him do so in a capacity other than a senior representative of the country's largest bank.

There is little in the way of hard statistical evidence to support the notion that 70 percent of Turks and 90 percent of Arabs contribute nothing to the German economy. And if half of Germans agree with him, then that should serve as an indictment of German intolerance towards its minorities.

I don't understand the Turkish intolerance of Germany. It seems as if Turks are the racists if they are refusing past efforts to integrate. Why are they coming to Germany with a closed mind and disrespect for the culture and tradition that is Germany and the European Union? Are they trying to change Germany? Is there the expectation that Germany or the EU should conform to them? If Turkey is so great that 3 generations down the line they don't want to claim Germany, then why not go home to Turkey and try to change Turkey? With full empathy to both sides, I'm just applying fair logic. Live where you want to live but don't expect to impose your beliefs, attitudes or intolerance for others and not be called a racist. Immigrants to Germany or any country should respect the country and be productive.

I disagree. I think immigrants changing cultures is a good thing. Think of how much more vibrant the US and UK are as the result of immigrants deciding that conforming to a stuffy, class-bound, stick-up-their-ass WASP (like, ummm, me) culture was ludicrous.

However, one needs a melting pot result, not imposing a caliphate on everyone. Lots of jewish people work in Los Angeles and New York, however, last time I checked they didn't ban non-kosher food or arrest people for working on Saturdays.

It's a matter of debate on another thread, but little things in the US like the Pledge of Allegiance reinforce the fact that if you "sign up for the program" you'll be accepted as a full-fledged member of society within a generation or two, max. Germany doesn't have any of that stuff 1) because they screwed the pooch in WWI/WWII and sullied anything remotely resembling healthy patriotism and 2) they remain very antediluvian in the view that nationality and culture are fudamentally driven by race, and to a lesser extent religion.

I tend to disagree.. Europe is not the US, and if a melting pot, to a much lesser extent than the US is. The US was founded that way, essentially. Diversity in Europe is a French France, a German Germany, an English England(ha!!..), etc.. NOT kebab stands from one side of the continent to the other..

I also disagree that American-style diversity makes a place more "vibrant".. London is a massive border-line 3rd world -hole IMO.. Would there be German cars if there had been more "diversity" over the years? Would Shakespeare have been more "vibrant" if he'd gone to a more racially mixed school? And on and on.. Europe is about culture IMO in a way that America is not, and because the history is so much longer, then yes race is a bigger factor in it here than in the US. All these individual national identities and cutlures have been evolving and forged over many centuries, going way back into a deep past, with the various languages, traits, wars, and so on. And so race as an inherent element in all this is obvious. And now in the last 40 years, we throw any old seasoning (not just racial, but more importantly IMO, cultural...)into the soup, cuz that's the way America is, and so obviously must be the best??

Europe is not America, and should not strive to be. THAT is diversity. Same way France is not Germany, Spain not England, etc.

And yet the history of Europe is nothing more than the wandering of tribes and development of cultures through those wanderings.

Or does HerrDinkspumps want to bring to the table some proof of some purity in genes. Old concept in Germany that one but somewhat disproven.

How about a "No, thank you" to all those investments from middle-east? How dare those stone age sheikhs from Qatar invest in Daimler...

You don't get it, do you? That you yourself is of mixed blood by right-wing standards? You are half American, half German. In their eyes, you will never be German, irrelevant of what's written in your passport. I find it very funny that you speak of the others when you yourself are an immigrant. What are you personally contributing to Germany? Are you enriching German life and culture? Thank God for Kebab, thank God for Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Thai, Indian, Italian, Spanish, Tibetan, Nepalese, Korean, Bangladeshi, Mexican, Libanese and French (ok, now I am going too far)foods*

Thank God for Belgium and Swiss chocolates, for Californian, South African and Australian wines, thank God for all those wonderful things which would be unavailable in a Germany without foreigners. Thank God for all the dark-haired, dark-skinned people, for the mixture of races and colours. Thank God for being able to meet people in Germany from far and exotic places without having to fly for 12 hours to meet them.

* My apologies to any nation of people who love fine foods which I might have left out in my list. Also, this list is in no particular order or rank or importance.

Today you are complaining about the Turks, the Kebabs. Last you were complaining about the Africans. What's next in line? Do you have a surprise left for us?You do realise that German cars partially get produced in foreign countries? Which products are 100% German these days? You do realise that without the dreaded foreigners of which you yourself are one by their standards, the rich in Germany wouldn't get richer, the grub you buy at Aldis and Lidl would be more expensive, the Schnäppchen you love running after would be a lot more expensive?

You do realise that by buying cheap products in German shops you are making it impossible for people elsewhere on this planet to sustain themselves although they work fulltime? And then you wonder when these very people want to come here to where the money seems to be?

What would you do in that situation? Why did you leave the USA for that matter?Yeah, and the cultures and traditions in Europe remain strong despite the mixture of races and ethnicities. I travel a hell of a lot, haven't been anywhere in Europe where I thought their own culture and tradition was in danger of disappearing.

You are damn right. Diversity is great. So is respect. You are living in a Europe which is getting rich at the expensive of others in third world countries and you then wonder when their people flock here. Be thankful that these people can at least cook!

Well , French food is god awful so maybe we should have forced them to stay where they were?

[size=1]I did make a certain comment about French food

Sorry, I was reading it too quick and thought you meant your list was too long when I first read it. But the overrating of French food is a battle for another day.

Majorbummer, there is nothing coherent in your response. I happen to like Japanese food. Mexican too. But this is about a hell of a lot more than restaurants. If anything I am saying I wish Germany would go a little more the route of France in protecting its own culture(though beyond it's language I don't know if France is any less bad off from massive over-immigration than places like England.. See the riots of thousands of useless immigrant rabble from a few years ago...), for a start. In some ways Germany does - one example being that I don't expect they'll accept that dumbass suggestion for a Muslim holiday. In other ways though it is a shame to see what Germans allow to happen to their language with the inflow of Anglicisms, to name one minor example. In any event, I just don't accept that Germany should go the cloudy-soup diversity way of the US. Same applies to France, England, etc..

Why did I come here? Because I am fascinated by European cultural diversity ha ha ha.. I like being able to go relatively short distances and be in places where other languages are spoken, with other histories, cuisines, national characters, etc.. I like not only reading about history and culture, but being in the midst of it. If you're not an American having grown up in an anonymous, cookie-cutter suburb then that might be difficult to understand. And even if it is I don't particularly care, because I'm answering a question about my motives, not anybody else's.

Whatever the case, culture is what Europe is all about. And kebab stands don't count as the culture I'm talking about. Islamic, AND Turkish, cultures, are alien to European culture. This has been the case for a thousand years. And often more than just alien, but downright hostile. September 11th cemented this chasm IMO - at least for me. People don't like to "go there", because it's uncomfortable - especially for countries like France and England which have brought themselves to the brink of ruin by inviting so many Muslims into their midst. But there is VERY little doubt that, insofar as there is a global Islamic worldview, it IS VERY MUCH HOSTILE to the West - that means us - even PC white guy types with dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts. Yes, they'd love to blow you up too. We're talking here about some ("the truth hurts" for PC-types) comments made by a German politician directed at Arabs and Turks. As far as I'm concerned what he said was spot on. Though I personally try to avoid Turkish vegie and fruit sellers.. Don't trust them.

Turn on the news. See how many innocent poeple(often Muslims for fxxx's sake!!!) were killed today in Pakistan or Afghanistan or wherethefuckever by Islamic fanatics..

Just coincidentally took "The Brothers Karamozov" off the shelf, and re-read the "Rebellion" chapter.. I suggest everybody here read it if you haven't already(AND the following Grand Inquisitor chapter..) No, not only because of the depictions of Turkish cruelty. But because of the argument that ultimately, you can not achieve ANYTHING worthwhile, as long as it's knowingly built on the basis of the suffering of one innocent child. And EVERY DAY innocent people are blown up by psycho suicide bombers in the name of Islam. As long as this goes on, and Islam as a global religion does nothing to stop it, then I can only consider it an enemy of the very notion of civilization itself. And that I do.

I don't naively think the world will ever be fair and that everybody will be equal either. Competition and I suppose even unfairness is programmed into the game. That being the case, I want to be on the dominant side. Who wouldn't? Currently, being a Westerner means just that. PC though would gladly have that reversed. I don't want that to happen, and my opinions are directed along those lines.

Bingo. The problem is the fanatics. On both sides.

Avoiding kebabs and Turkish vegetable sellers makes me a fanatic? You're comparing that to blowing up children and grandmas?

You can see throughout the Western world large-scale outrage at what Israel has been doing, the same with the US. I for one loathed G Dub. Don't give a rat's ass about Israel either(though they are half-way European - but bleh that's a big mess and a different story..)

Point is, where's the global outrage from the Islamic world against what has been done of late in its name, and continues to be done?

I assume you were out on the streets burning effergies of Bushie over all his attrocities then?

Don't get me wrong. I abore Islam as much as any other religion. But the believers in Islam are no more guilty of a crime than the followers of Catholicism are kiddy fiddlers and you don't see mass outrage in the catholic world about that issue do you?

There was more discussion about that and overt public outrage, yes.. I remember stories of lifelong Catholics leaving the Church, protest, apologies from bishops, etc.. And even so, we're talking about the Catholic church, HARDLY as central an influence in the Western World as the Islamic religion is in the ... well, Islamic world. I don't remember every detail, but I think it's safe to say the molestation story in the Catholic church was an issue at least, that garnered attention.. You hear nothing from Islamic leaders except occasionally the most pathetic lip-service and then weasely excuse-making with finger-pointing at Israel. Why? Because suicide murdering is practically official Islamic policy.

Maybe read this then

And learn how google works.

Just click here

I see. So you like the food and the restaurants, but not the people. Oh, with food I obviously exclude Kebab which you clearly seem to dislike. You would like the German language to become pure again too I see. What is German culture in your eyes? What needs to be protected? I live in Bavaria, the people here are all about culture. It's impossible not to see German culture. Do I have the feeling that Bavarian culture is threatened in some way? No, not really. I lived in the north of Germany for 12 years, HerrDinksBumps. To be honest, I have no idea what you mean when you speak about the threatened culture in the north. Do you mean eating saure Gürken or Eisbein? Or do you mean washing your car on Sundays? After 12 years in the north, I really didn't notice any specific culture. Does that mean you are right and it's too late? The German culture is gone?No, I understand you fully. That is also something I marvel at, what a fantastic opportunity to experience culture! Let me tell you a funny story. When I first visited a German language course in Berlin, I met a Turkish lady. She participated. I was so gobsmacked by having met a person from Turkey that I went on and on about it. "You are really from Turkey?! Wow! You are here?! (I had visions of her flying in on a magic carpet and , but I didn't tell her that of course) I knew nothing about German history. So to me meeting Turkish people was a gift, something I wouldn't have been able to do had I not moved to Berlin. I did phone home about it. A different attitude, and I was only ever met with kindness from Turkish people. I had a Turkish teacher at some point too and started learning Turkish. I visited Turkey. I then met Iranian people, same thing. I was invited into their homes, guest of honour, many delicious treats were prepared and served to me. Not once was I treated like a second class citizen because I was Christian. It's a two way thing. It's how you approach people, your attitude, that's the important thing, the thing which makes the difference. Germany's big mistake.The Turks in Germany did more for Germany than you and I, coming frome the West, will ever be able to do. If you judge by deeds alone and not by race or ethnicity, they have more right to be here than you and me.

You talk about the West being important and the winners in a Darwanist manner. Look at us, what on earth do we stand for? Corruption, greed and exploitation. Not to mention unsurpassable arrogance. It's ok if we rape the world, we are stronger, we are the winners. And then you harp on about culture. This is our high culture, our great values, the ones you want to protect?So on the one hand you say if we exploit other countries in order to make our own countries richer its life, hard luck for them, you'd rather be on the eating side than on the starving side, and on the other hand you don't understand why they hate us? Btw, I am certainly no pc white guy, I am female for that matter and I think Che Guevara was an arrogant arsehole. I just really think that attitude plays a big role here and Germany and the Germans have a serious attitude problem when it comes to accepting foreigners as their equals. You have to be absolutely blind not to see it. You know, one of the first things which happened to me as a tourist in Berlin was being attacked by an East German guy with a taser. I didn't even notice him, but he heared me talking to a friend in English, a young, white, female. He thought I was English or American and he hated me for that. His hatred was so strong, he was willing to physically injure me. You haven't met the wrong people yet it seems, your eyes will open.I think they have all the reason in the world to hate us, it's very scary and now Joe Average has become the target. The tables are turned. Try to imagine what it's like to live in Kabul. Now we have become scared, we, who have lived in a dream world. Living in fear every damn day and for many years is a reality for many people living in Islamic countries. How many innocent Muslim children have died due to the West? You really only see one side of the story. Those children died so that you can fill up your SUV cheaply.

Bullshit to your last point about kids dying to fill up my SUV.. That is such typical mushy-brain left-wing bullshit. What am I supposed to do - deplete my bank account to feed some African family? Why just one family? Why not 10,000?? What about Asia? What about South America? Where does it stop? I like my SUV very much thanks. I also prefer Hemingway to Maya Angelou(being such a racist and all..) Life is a hard and competitive place. Some win, some lose. Period. Has always been that way, always will. We wouldn't be here were it not for that guiding force in the very DNA of things. Your trying to justify the losers blowing up the winners is kind of.., well, horrible IMO.

The US has made A LOT of mistakes in the last decades(too much diversity, maybe?..) - culminating with G Dub and the Iraq debacle..(which, though, however misguided, WAS a response to 9/11). But again, the blatant targeting of any and all innocent civilians to blow up and slaughter out of the blue has never been an overt policy of the US(or Israel, I would argue..) It IS an overt policy of Islamic fundamentalists, and Islam as a whole has done pitifully little to curb or stop this.

As far as altercations in the streets - I - blond, blue eyes, average looking 30-something dude - seem to attract the "was guckst du?!!!" Turkish greasy scum types.. Oh yeah, there were the two Moroccoan scumbags who started yelling at me on 12/9/01 (starting with a "was guckst du" encounter - they started of course..) and saying it all happened because we don't have Allah.

And to your food/race comment - I lived in Japan before coming to Germany. I was fascinated by Japan and their culture. I like the people I had to deal with too. Japanese culture inspires respect in my book. Just an off-to-the-side kind of comment, to possibly mitigate the childish "you're just a racist" angle to your comments.... I respect cultures that respect themselves. And have contempt for the self-contemptuous.. Which is what PC means to me.

I probably am racist (as everybody is to some extent deep down IMO..), but for me the supreme value(not being religious..), is "culture". And the cultures I value are European. That being the case, I am thoroughly opposed to the Islamic holiday, and find nothing whatsoever wrong with what Sarazin said(the vegie and fruit seller comment was gratuitous, and detracts from the valid points he made..) - and wish more people would speak their mind like that, instead of being PC and skirting around the truth.

I am one of those who believes there is a clash of civilizations going on - just like there's a clash in the market-place, or on the football field. Somebody has to win. And I for one hope it's the side where my values lie. Left-wingers seem to me to wish for the opposite - which makes such thinking a kind of cultural cancer IMO. I went through all this in grad school in literary studies - a microcosm where these issues are played out at the most fundamental level. I left though and gave up. Because ultimately I came to the conclusion that the battle - at least in the US - was already lost.

Walk around some shady areas of any British town or city and you'll get the same thing from white teens. 'What you looking at Mr' the calling card of the young neds.

So you got what you wanted. The Muslim youth has assimilted the culture of the european white youths. Only you don't like it so you attribute it to them being muslim.

If you would like to see how integration works,spend your holidays the first weekend in August in Edmonton/Canada and visit the Heritage Festival, then you see how the many different people can live peacefully together.(not that there are no tensions when their home countries are in conflict with each other)

One might argue which came first, the chicken or the egg?...

Oh Weegie Neds were around a long time before any Muslims.

Iran. One of the worst examples of a Muslim nation in the world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixG55tWAebg

Oh, then I am certainly relieved. "Black America" is obviously a success story and Obama is only just one of many black men who served as Presidents...

And?? Have they also pwned the Palastinian suicide bombers, the Germans making threat videos, the children murderers from Afghanistan to Indonesia? As long as these things keep going on, in the name of the Islamich religion and hatred of the West/Great Satan, etc.., there simply IS a clash of civilizations going on. This whole discussion is a minor aspect of it. No Islamic holiday in Germany, criticism of Sarazin's firing, no Turkey in the EU, etc etc.. Nobody gives a what academics think anyway. I'm only taking the phrase.

Have you considered there may be a clash of civilisations going on within the muslim world and much of what we are seeing is the old guard fighting for ever decaying control as they lose power? Their fear? The influence of the west over their youth. So what do we do? Re-enforce their argument by showing them our worse side. So basically you and your right wing wingnut buddies are their best recruiting agents.

Wishful thinking at best. Where's evidence of this big internal struggle? Where's evidence even of any discussion about such a struggle?

Pie in the sky nonsense.. You WISH that were the case, cuz then your left-wing "let's all get along" agenda would seem more plausible. You're making things up to defend your wishful thinking with crap like that.

Show me ONE example anywhere of Islamic piety untinged by hate of the West.

I'm pretty much as turned off by Rush Limbaugh types as I am by German Greens btw.. Opposite sides of the political spectrum perhaps - but equally stupid..

"Democratic" politics is nauseating, wherever you place yourself on the spectrum.

 Plenty. Problem is that those people aren't given a voice in those parts of the world as their media are too repressive. And the unfortunate fact is that their governments are supported directly or indirectly by the West, or they'd have succumbed to the will of the masses long ago. The American Vinnell Corporation supports the House of Saud (Google them) The US supported Uzbekistan. Within Saudi even now the imams are preaching tolerant Islam to their flock as they don't want their own kids radicalised. 

And Mr Bumps a kebab stall is as much a part of Germany as lederhosen. my God an attitude like yours wouldn't allow you to get along very wll in multicultural Britain.

You got that right - about wanting nothing do do with "multicultural" Britain.. I hated London.. If I wanted to be surrounded by Bangladeshis, I would go to Bangladesh..

You're wrong though that "Germany" is as much as about lederhosen as about kebab stands..

I've been around a bit in Europe, for a while now, and over the years I've met more and more disgusted Brits who've left, with the attitude - "burn it down and start over".. England went over the top with multi-culti, and the country is a freakin' disaster as a result. I mean ruined..

I've always thought it would be interesting to examine and outline the origins of western political correctness, and to map out where things went so wrong intellectually. My suspicion is that the origins lie in England - perhaps with the likes of John Stuart Mill and his proto-socialist nonsensical ideas of utilitarianism. (I'm with Nietzsche in his contempt for English thinking..) Ultimately you end up with a bit of resentment at the loss of empire, and specifically with the really cancerous strain in England of empire guilt, perhaps just a wormy moral rationalization of the loss of empire?? Anyhow, there's something to it, though yes it's a big topic and would require a lot of work to lay it all out systematically...(which I'm obviously not doing here..) But PC is very obviously a cultural cancer of the west, leading to people like you making statements like you did - saying kebabs are as German as lederhosen. There are a lot of people in the West with whom that idea and its implications for Europe don't sit well at all - from Spain to Russia to Italy.. And my guess is, some day this clash of civilizations and world views will play out on the streets across Europe.. Happened before, will happen again..

You are some 41 years late with your prophecy.

Another case of shooting the messenger...... So sad.

Is the current conflict caused by problems of integration or dodgy foreign policy?

We have large numbers of migrants from many different lands but the problems all seem to stem from one community.

Maybe I'm being irrationally optimistic and positive today, and should go and see a shrink to depress me or get some sad pills.

But I took the comment above to mean.

It is both our failing as Germans, and the inherent failing of Turkish attitude in Germany that relegates Turkish immigrants to nothing better than fruit and vegetable sellers, when they could achieve and contribute so much more, if the attitude both from the German, and Turkish side changed from its current bunker mentality.

So I guess I better take some anti-ecstasy before I do any real harm

There is nothing wrong with running your own fruit and vegetable shop. It is hard work and entrepreneurial. It´s not as if these people had come here with lots of money to start capital intensive industries. I certainly prefer someone who opens a fruit and vegetable shop to someone with a big mouth who had his pay checks signed by the taxpayer for his whole life.

Well said, Oblomov.

I too rate the fruit and vegetable sellers of Germany, of both immigrant and non immigrant heritage do quietly ply their trade to the loud mouthed and boisterous banker with nothing better to do than make silly, crassly offensive about various sections of Berlin society.