Two teens arrested for beating man to death

Perhaps is time to allow law adiding citizens to carry weapons and adopt Texas justice - it may be the first step in ridding Germany of its scum like those mentioned above.

The fact that they have criminal records for a number of offences is evident they are not fit to live amongst the civilized and should be exterminated.

Amen to you mog404, I agree 100%,

The U.S. has a murder rate of 5.6 per 100,000 inhabitants. Germany has 1 per 100,000. So that's like, one sixth.

Keep your stupid gun laws to yourself.

I am just in Shock! This could have been me. Right in my neighborhood.

Why will they be charged with "attempted murder" when the victim died from his injury?

Read this SPIEGEL article and you´ll see the difference between proper journalism and "information" provided by The Local :

Justiz ermittelt wegen Mordes gegen S-Bahn-Schläger

Quite a shock when I heard about this this morning.

It's going to be interesting what comes out about the perpetrators of this over the next while.

The S7 is hardly the "crime line" of Munich.

The worst offence I'd expect there would be wearing a polo shirt in a shade of pink that is so last summer.

If I had my friggin' way I'd put the teenagers parents' in jail too giving them some culpability for this murder.

It´s not "attempt murder", it´s "murder".

What caused this insury? To qualify for murder to victim does not have to die immediatly. The fact that the prosecutor said was that they stopped beating the men as he laid on the floor and then they continued beating him again, so it was not an action in emotion. (which would be manslaughter/second degree murder/Totschlag).

What I dont understand is that the article states the two "are likely to be charged with attempted murder" The guy is dead. whats with the "attempted murder"? They succeeded in killing him.

Would this mean they could successfully use as a defence they are not guilty of attempted murder 'cos they succeeded?!!!

absolutely sickened at both crime and head title of the article

Why in the world would you want to charge the parents, and with what crime would you charge the parents?

The perpetrators are going to be charged with murder. Too bad they won't get a life sentence.

Since they cannot be repatriated to a different country this is obviously the only solution*. Society has to realize that it's not ethnicity that turns kids to drugs and crime, it's society itself. It's sickening that anybody that young has nothing better to do than ruin his mind with drugs and then go out and commit crimes.

*insert sarcasm smilie at will

the perps are 17 and 18, will they be charged as adults?

here's hoping that they get put away for a long time; they have bad criminal histories already, this is certainly not a first offence.

They are known violent criminals and drug offenders, one of them lives in the Condrobs house further up the line and is a native of Solln. The 18-year-old may be judged under adult law, depending on his mental maturity. Since his brain has gone to mush due to drugs probably not.

Germany does not need harsher laws, it needs to apply the existing ones consequently.

Article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung about the crime itselfOnline article about the kids:

here's hoping.

Attempted murder, now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?

Is there any information about what time of the day this happened? I'm assuming it was rather late night... but I'm interested for my own safety... I always try to avoid public transportation after as early as 9 or 10pm... so wondering if this happened earlier than that? Later? Scary! I live in solln! I've called the police already a few times due to dumb teenagers "hanging around" out on the bench by Wolfratshauser Strasse drunk and loud! Where the HECK are the parents of these kids!

Time to buy a car, this happened in broad daylight on Saturday afternoon.

Yep, it was at some time after 3 p.m. on Saturday. Absolutely shocking.

This is hard news, as we we looking to move to the Thalkirchen/Solln/Wolfrasthausen area in the next year. We have two younger kids, and when I read that I think it better to stay here in (boring and safe) Ludwigsburg.

Got the very thing

This is obviously terrible but lets hold things in proportion. This sort of things happens every day / evening in UK in most major towns and cities. (happened to me in similar circumstances)

The only difference between this and all those beatings (and I don't mean this to excuse anything) but these guys kicked just once too many times and actually killed the poor guy.

I still think germany is far safer than UK.

but even reaching the point of just having to kick one more time is really really .

these guys should be locked up for a long time. let's think of the victim here, not the perps.

Absolutely -> throw away the key -> just for beating him, never mind killing him!

I'm just saying lets not reach for the body armour and automatic weapons before we go out. From what I see even beatings are still far rarer than in UK

that's certainly true.

Perhaps it would be 'attempted murder', because he was killed falling on some hand rail or similar, not literally by the kids? But they are charged with murder, as far as I know, and rightly so.

Such a terrible thing again...and the same questions again - why wasn't something done before it came to this (both kids have a criminal record, including violence, at least one of them was a drug addict), and what were all the other people present doing?

As miwild already mentioned, the "attempted murder" thing was just a bad translation on The Local's part. The little bastards are going to be charged with murder and so they should be.

The sad thing here is that this man was killed for standing up to these kids. If he'd kept his head down and kept quiet, he'd still be alive today. The unfortunate reality is that in almost all the recent cases of public-transport murders and attacks in Munich, the victim challenged the perpetrators for doing something wrong (threatening passengers, smoking, etc.) These lowlife aren't used to being reprimanded, and so react violently when it does happen.

Apparently the man called the police at about 15.45 but by the time they got there it was too late.

I'm seeing a serious need for more video surveillance. Is it true that they have it on the U-Bahn but not the S-Bahn in Munich?

I recall the astonished look on the faces of two punk kids when I actually pushed the emergency brake button in the S-Bahn at Lohhof after telling them to throw their cigarettes out the open door. They didn't, I pushed, their laughter quickly turned to fear. The train driver dealt with them.

EDIT: I think that the trains themselves are on cctv but not the S-Bahn stations. Politicians are calling for surveillance and also for more Bahnpolizei presence.

The 17 year old is definitly not charged as adult. So the maximum penalty is 10 years.

If you are 18-21 the court can decide if you are charged as youth or adult. Depending how indepedent you are (own flat,? work? etc.)

No, dependent on your mental maturity based on a psychological assessment.

Somebody who already has this criminal record and is taking drugs will not be charged as an adult....

The jugde(s) decide if they apply Jugend- or Erwachsenenstrafrecht. You´re right it´s based on mental maturity.I just named few more objective things that are usually considered when deciding. if you´re able to live on your own then you´re more mature than living at home with mommy taking care of you.

@matajari

I don´t think so

I had been back in the UK for the weekend and when I arrived home at Solln I saw the candles and the memorial that was there. It is appalling that this could happen in broad daylight. Was there no one else around who saw this and could have stepped in? Solln Bahnhof is normally populated whatever time of day.

These two thugs should be tried as adults if they are capable of committing this sort of crime. They should be put away for a very long time.

As shocked as we all are Munich is still by far the safest place I know to live and the occurences of this are infrequent here. I will still feel safe walking around here. The calls for allowing "law abiding" citizens to carry weapons to protect themselves is ill conceived and counter productive. Two reasons. Firstly, who's to say who would qualify? No criminal record? There's plenty of people out there with no criminal record because they haven't been caught but are not safe to carry weapons. Secondly, this only escalates the levels of violence. America is the example used but statistically those countries with softer laws on weapon ownership have higher crime rates.

He was the one that did step in!! -

I had a broken nose and face like a watermelon for weeks when I did! I'd like to think I would but I'm not really sure whether I would do it again.

Simply untrue. Canada has the highest number of weapons per capita, even Germany is ahead of the United States. (Though I´m still wondering who has all these guns).

Switzerland has the same tradition of "I have a weapon to defend my state against tyrants" as the US, but there´s virtually no crime. (in comparision to the US)

I was under the impression Switzerland's tradition stemmed more from the citizenry's desire to protect against external tyrants, whereas the US's stems more from the (largely fantastical at this point) belief that a well armed populace will defend again internal tyrants within the government.

I would agree with your points however. As others already mentioned, England has a high crime rate as well despite restrictions on the sale of even butter knives to minors.

The whole incident started at Donnersbergerbrücke when the punks were bullying younger kids, demanding ?15. The dead hero offered to accompany the kids to their destination, i.e. he didn't even have to go to Solln. The punks kept up their behavior, the hero called the police to meet him and the younger kids at Solln. By the time the cops got there the damage was done.

A criminal psychologist said in the Süddeutsche Zeitung that pulling the emergency brake is a smart move - it informs other passengers of the danger, the train driver alarms the police and stops at - at the latest - the next station. He also said that yelling at the culprits and asking others to get involved, such as helping you yell at them and alarming the police, can de-escalate a violent situation with less risk of the helpers being attacked.

We were accosted by a group of snotty drunk Munich teens last night as we were getting onto the elevator at Sendlliger Tor. When I finally got their dumb asses to settle down they said they wanted to go to a hopping bar and I recommended the place we just came from and left them with if they were looking for females it was a pretty good spot if one liked hot, high cheek-boned, Slovenian girls.

To which they replied that they were more interested in mixing it up than pussy.

I then told them if it was a fight they were looking for than that's the place they should be at.

I know there have been several of these crimes here in the last couple of years - BUT I for one feel 100% safer here than I ever did at home - the land of shell suits and hoodies.

Keep it in context.

Have you got a link to a credible source or are you just making this up?

These cowardly gits who fancy a fight should be given a nice new uniform, a nice new gun and some bullets and then parachuted into the middle of Afghanistan. This will save the state having to keep them in jail for 20 years at the expense of us taxpayers.

Wouldn't do international relations much good but I like the sentiment!!

dont they have to do their military service anyway? thatll teach them some discipline and respect.

As if they'd be accepted with a rap sheet for violence.

Probably off topic but I wonder how much the national service has to do with the far better violent crime rate than in UK?

Wouldn't want a violent soldier...

Well some countries turn a blind eye which only brings down the reputation of the men and women serving next to them. Now I digress my apologies....

Frank78 is making it up

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_wea_hol_percap-military-weapon-holdings-per-capita

USA # 46, Canada # 75

Switzerland is at #21 due to the practise of adult males doing their military service and getting to keep their gun as a kind of sleeping army.

In the murders per capita US is at # 24, Canada #44, UK #46 and Germany #49

To do a full analysis of the comparison would take some time and you would need to take differing factors into account. Are these registered weapons. I'd be surprised otherwise as South Africa is at #69 yet their murder rating is #2. What is the impact of being in a conflict area etc...

Filtering on "developed" countries and a correlation begins to appear between weapon holdings and murder rates.

Simply saying something is untrue doesn't make it untrue :-)

Gaffers, those stats are titled "military weapons", so I doubt this includes *all* guns. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that most types of guns aren't included.

To post 46, I disagree, as a matter of fact we do have military, but guys can choose if they go military or go to a social work instead. It is proven that the ones who choose the military are more likely to be agressive. Plus there is obviously gone something wrong 18 years long and I doubt military can fix that.

Another one said that the 17 year old will not count as an adult. Well that is true at the moment. But there can exceptions be made in case of a cruel crime what it certainly was, to make him count as adult.

To post 24 and all the others who say that it happens far more often in other countries. Well poster 24 let me say I am sorry something similar happened to you. And I know things like that happen in other countries daily. I am from Germany, to be exact I live about 10 mins away from where that happened. Just because it happens somewhere else daily, does not comfort me. It is still shocking and scares me. Normally this part of Munich is a very safe part. Perhaps that makes it more shocking. I don't know. It would shock me as well would it happen in a not so good part. These two Skinheads (not punks, skinheads) are just wrong. And I refuse to put things like that in proportion. As my opinion is that the day we put it in proportion is the day we start to accept that such things happen. And I certainly do not want to accept. Things like that change the world in a not good way, cause people who normally would help in situations like that will start to think now if they should. And that won't make the world better. No matter how safe Germany compared with other countries is, to put it in proportion and accept these things, is not a solution. Sorry for my english.

So, are people here thinking that they'd be more or less likely to intervene for strangers after reading this? The authorities are calling for more "Civil Courage" but I wonder if their call will be heard.

There is hefty discussion on other fora that the victim called 110 at Donnersburgerbrücke station saying he was going to be getting of the train with…[/quote]Some but not all S-bahn trains in Munich have cameras.

Some but not all city run public transport has cameras.

A camera would NOT have saved this victim.

It's a sad sad day for Munich and society.

Should EdBob think about toughtown as a new name....?

I haven't got time to go and find a link now Pes but I read in the Süddeutsche today that in fact violent crime is FALLING.

It just doesn't look like that when we've had a few nasty incidents on public transport over the past few years.

There is no need for more video surveillance - in fact, there is no need for anything here. This is basically a one off tragedy that very rarely happens. The people involved should be punished hard as an example however.

I would be interested to know if there was anyone else around while this was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if there was other people watching this happen, but no one jumped in to help. I certainly wouldn't count on help over here. That's the only thing that has to change here. More people should use this guy as an example of how you should be, even though he did meet a tragic end.

If there was another guy there ready to back this 50 year old guy up, maybe a couple of punks would have got their ass kicked instead.

There were people around Hutcho but of course we weren't there so can't say exactly what it looked like.

I mean even the police were saying the other week "don't get too involved" if things turn nasty.

Would we have got involved?

There but for the grace of God etc.....

the teens beat the 50 yr old man with a BASEBALL BAT then after he was down then began to kick him.

they must have concealed the bat in their coats easy to do.

that man should have pulled the emergancy cord pronto on the S- train

me i would have beat the crap out those kids ON the train taken their clothes and kicked them out naked at the next stop.

but then thats me, ex cali concert security no game playing ever from me.

i have enjoyed knocking the crap out of a few trouble makers here in munich.

yeah and i am almost 50.

He called emergency on his mobile and left Bayern's finest plenty of time to put down the Leberkässemmel and get to Solln station.

Pulling the emergency brake on the train would in the normal run of things been of little help.

I'll leave out any comment on the bravado.

Very likely. When I was living in Edmonton, there was an incident where 4 kids on a bus were bothering passengers and some guy started telling them off and they beat him to death. The bus was full of people who watched it happen. Nobody wants to get involved.

Well, my daughters (15 and 12) and their schoolmates take that line every day.

It was one of my older daughter's classmates that found the poor guy and apparently attempted to resuscitate him.

I have to say, I'm in a bit of shock.

No. A minor cannot be tried under adult law in Germany, Jugendstrafrecht always applies.It's like the psychologist said: Get involved but get others involved as well. If two guys see themselves confronted by one guy they'll jump him. If two guys are being yelled at by ten people chances are they'll pull in their tails and creep away. It's a crying shame that Dominik got killed for being courageous enough to stand up to bullies but I hope that enough people get the message that there is strength in numbers.

Have your children and their friends seen these ruffians often in their travels? Is that line normally quiet and safe?

The line has been completely safe and without issue - my girls take this line for the last two years almost every school day from one station further south and ride it without a single complaint or the smallest report of the slightest issue. Getting off at their train station there is usually a good citizen around making sure that there is a bus for them and on the freak driver's strike, actually waited 3 min for me to get there.

I have had one incident last winter when my daughter called me up after the first big snow storm and told me that there was a strange dark man there at the station that had approached her... talking a funny language... It happened that a consultant from the UK and India (that didn't speak German and my daughter's English was just OK then, but she understood the issue) was stuck in the snow (his first day in Germany, no coat) at the wrong station and was trying to get info about the trains or taxis to get to his hotel. We ended up driving him to the hotel and got a very nice emailed thank-you note later.

It's safe enough that I and our friends will continue to let our daughters travel the line, with a little more trepidation perhaps. Not sure it's quiet with all the kids giggling in the morning.

A lot of people know and recognize the same clockwork commuters and my daughter's sometimes speak French to an elderly lady, I'm told. That's a quick snapshot of the line that won't make it to the news.

Technically the line is in fact safer than before because these two punks are now locked up.

Cat never freaked out about taking the U3 after that pensioner guy pushed the Greek girl against the train. Arabellapark is in an affluent part of town, Giselastrasse is in the middle of Schwabing, both stations were scenes of violent beatings. This kind of thing can happen on any line anywhere any time.

... and generally does not, so I'm not locking the children down.

The question that should be asked over and over is what took the police so long to respond? Seems like lots of finger pointing about youth violence and addressing that problem but a quicker police response would have saved the man. And response time is something that can be fixed, I don't know if anyone has a fix for violent teenagers. This story makes me sick.

There are issues to be deal with, but LAST thing that is needed is having a big Angst about the S7 in south Munich.

Yes I do think it is illegal anyway...thanks to the E.U.

just because "there is a hefty discussion" doesn't make it true, he called the police not at donnersbergerbrücke but later on the train.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/123/487527/text/2/So they arrived ten minutes after the call .. who knows if they finished their Leberkässemmel and Weißbier first or if simply nobody was closer, but a response time of 10 minutes seems ok to me.

I was wrong, Dominik was on his way to Solln after all, that's where his residence in Munich was.

The Süddeutsche Zeitung has more background information on the culprits, and it's the same old story: Battered kids end up battering others. This is no justification for their deed but it does prove that merely having the genitalia does not qualify everyone immediately to be parents. 17-year-old Sebastian seems to have been the whipping boy for both his biological father and his step-father, growing up in an aura of alcohol and other drugs with no support from his mentally instable mother. So he turns to - yup! - alcohol, pot and violence. In and out of various youth aid institutions, the case workers discussed putting him into a closed facility but hesitated because they were getting a rapport with him (they say).

Several people in Solln tried to stop the excess of violence, among them the kids whom Dominik had protected. The culprits didn't stop until the police arrived - ten minutes after Dominik's call for help, app. five minutes after the S-Bahn arrived in Solln.

Markus, the other kid, is said to have realized the enormity of his crime, he has completely broken down in a crying jag. Maybe because he was caught and knows what to expect, not because of what he did.

I probably won't be trying to break up any fights from now on. Wait, I never did.

What a shame and how very sad.

I think you missunderstood just what is meant by "putting in proportion". Yes it's a hidious crime, the thugs deserve all they get.

"Putting in proportion" is not talking about been complacent - society can not afford to be complacent about these things otherwise it will end up like UK.

But as an individual you should not allow this, what is in germany a very rare incident, to effect the way you go about your daily life. It was written in reponce to those that were suggesting that everyone should carry guns - that would not solve a thing and indeed only make matters worse.

A really naiive question, but how do you know if you should pull the security cord? I think a lot of people in such a scenario are afraid of doing the wrong thing, not just with regards to themselves, but also something that might put the victim in an even more dangerous position. Is there some kind of guide more than just common sense or being courageous (like DB or MVV's official position on pulling the security cord)?

I realize that it wouldn't have helped in this man's case, but I don't know if I would have the courage to react in a helpful manner either.

@merryeri

There are two things at play here - one is instinct the other is courage. They are different.

When I took my beating it was pure instinct. I saw something that was wrong and felt I should try and stop it. Had I seen twenty seconds into the future or even really thought about the consequences I doubt I would have interfered 'cos I'm a devote coward (I won't even go to the dentist!).

Courage is going into a situation where you have thought through the dangers and done it anyway or maybe following through to further action after falling foul of your own instinct.

Whether you would do something in a similar situation is not so much as whether you feel you are "courages" now but whether you are the type to "look before you leap" or "simply dive in where angles fear to tread"!!

I honestly think it is still right to intervene whenever you can. This got out of hand but most of the time an intervention by an adult scares youth off. I bet it would increase these accidents if people would now just ignore disrespectfull behaviour.

sarabyrd, just to add something to what you said. These kids usually come from a violent or abusive home. It doesn't justify what they have done, but it shows what type of disturbing background/life that these kids undergo on a daily basis. Parents should teach their kids the difference between right and wrong, but what happens when you don't have parents that can teach you these things or your parents constantly exhibit violent or abusive behavior. These kids must have had so much anger, pain and hate stored within themselves that they believed they had to release it on an innocent bystander. Why does life have to be so meaningless to some people?

Yeah, "attempted murder", at least that's what it says in this article by The Local. I was quite perplexed when I read that bit of info, but then it's The Local, need I say more?

@ Hutcho #58

"I would be interested to know if there was anyone else around while this was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if there was other people watching this happen, but no one jumped in to help. I certainly wouldn't count on help over here. That's the only thing that has to change here. More people should use this guy as an example of how you should be, even though he did meet a tragic end."

there were other who helped too

But, if i am allowed to tell my experience: many times i saw people smoking in the train, many times also, it was me, myself who tried to stop it. usually, people acted "i pretend not to see it, so, i am not here and it's not my problem". German people usually try to avoid clash and confrontation. When I tried to stop 2 guys from smoking in the train, i looked at several other passengers around. and to my surprise, other passengers avoided my eyes contact, as if they were saying, "i am not here, don't ask me to involve""

this is also sick society!!!

this needs our attention too...

You're joking, aren't you? This guy is an example of what NOT to do in a dangerous situation like that.

Don't f***ing risk your own life by heroically confronting a bunch of thugs - who will be stronger and more violent than you anyway.

Get yourself in safety, call the police and let them sort it out.

Perhaps they don't mind the smoke and would in fact smoke themselves if they were allowed. Perhaps they can't be arsed about the hassle of confronting some young, possibly violent males for a comparatively harmless offence. Or perhaps they know better than you what the consequences may be. In any case, they can't be blamed for just sitting there and not wanting to get involved in what you perceive as a problem.

Frieda,

let's hope nothing like this ever happens in your life - because you'd probably condemn the onlookers for not doing anything to help, despite having just advised them to do exactly that - call police, but do nothing yourself. If all onlookers together had risked a few kicks to themselves in this case(I mean, there were two kids, not an army of Hell's Angels - surely they can't attack everyone at once?), this guy here might still be alive.

Also we must not forget that there are many cases of intervention by onlookers where the thugs didn't attack the helpers - only they usually get reported in Sendlinger Bote or similar, if at all, so we don't hear about them. I don't want to belittle the danger, but we still need to help where we can, in whatever way we can.

Comment: i just copied from:

"Die Angst der Helfer" http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt3m1/muenchen/311/487714/text/

"Und sie hätten immer wieder gesagt: "Es hat uns keiner geholfen." Die Kinder erzählen ihr, dass sie nicht nur um Hilfe gerufen, sondern gezielt Passanten angesprochen hätten mit der Bitte, einzugreifen. Auch dann noch, als der 50-Jährige schon am Boden lag. Doch mehrere Personen seien weitergegangen, die Kinder, sagt Braun, "fühlten sich völlig hilflos".

please, read the complete article from sueddeutsche zeitung..so, such a tragedy for what happened!

I hope you're the one that is joking. This guy died because of cowards like you.

Not saying I wouldn't help but I would have to think twice at least at the beginning of the whole thing. If a bit of shouting"Oi stop that" doesn't stop them then what do you do?

In my case I have a problem as I am not what you would call a large person so if I am going to get involved in violence then I have to go in very hard and very fast at the start as surprise and shock is my one advantage.

If I do this then I am going to injure my target, now when the dust settles and the cops turn up then I am going to be in deep for an unprovoked attack with ABH and depending on how the story is told by the other side I could be in real trouble.

So what do you do?

Yeah sure, you would have done something, even if it meant that you would have died.

if all 15 people that stood around doing nothing had helped, this guy wouldn't have died. 15 against 2 would have had these guys backing down very quickly.

Agreed but someone has to be first and he got kicked to death - you want to be second?

You're thinking irrationally, Hutcho.

Perhaps you regard it as your "Bürgerpflicht" to throw your life away only not to feel as a coward, but that's your own view.

True, but you never know if the others will help you and just trying to get their help will attract the attackers to you in a lot of cases. If you don't get help from the others then you are toast. Unless you are very big of course.

this is just another reflection of german society, and the like of Steven192 is another example.

believe me, big thing starts from a simple thing. first, we ignore and let and tolerate people smoking in the train. we tolerate people waiving a simple rule. by the time goes by, the worse thing happen. the more rules are broken. it leads to chaos. when we realize, it's too late to fix it. perhaps, this tragedy is just one in million, i agree, but this should be able to prevent if the rest of others wanted to get involved and have willingness to help.

those all bystanders are typical german. always try to avoid confrontation, avoiding clash just to be in their own comfort. when they see something not correct, these kind of people usually pretend to turn their head, pretending "i am not here, and i don't see it".

common, one guy died in front of your eyes, 4 children screaming for help!! and for god sake, 15 people around seemed did not care at all!!!

sick society...

So only foreigners look for confrontations?

It's an ideal that's often quoted but will work only a few cases as it requires people who are complete strangers to communicate and to agree that they're now going to attack. By then the crime is done. Seeing someone getting beaten up is still - thank goodness - a very rare situation and not one that we would normally prepare for in everyday life.

So how many of the bystanders were German, then?

Owain Glyndwr, I totally agree. However, I believe most people just look the other way. They probably believe as long as it doesn't affect them there is no need to get involved. On the other side, you probably have people that are too scared to do anything because of the fear of getting injured or possibly killed. If I were faced with a similar situation where someone was being attacked in public, I would think that the caring side of me would do or say something to try to stop the attack. However, one never knows how one would respond in this type of dangerous situation. Naturally, if you have a family, (wife and kids), you may not get involved because reality sets in and you think, "Who will take care of my family, if I get myself injured or killed?" Here's a question. If a person witnesses an attack and chooses not to become involved, does that make them a coward?

To stand around and watch is not typical "german" but unfortunately just typical!!

It's not "typically German" but it's entirely normal human behaviour that you will find anywhere in the world in comparable settings.

"Who will take care of my family, if I get myself injured or killed?"

As for being a coward or not.. I am in no place to pass judgement.. but how about taking this line of thinking when witnessing such an attack

"Who will take care of that guy's family, if he gets injured or killed?"

of course you dont know for certain if this other person has a family or not.. but i think the question becomes a bit irrelevant when a man (or woman) could get seriously injured or indeed lose their life

Non sense, my family is more important to me than the family from a random guy. Even if the guy is a very good person.

yes, it's typical here. the typical behaviour by german society: "I pretend not to see it happen", that what i experienced myself several times. as long as they comfort-zone is not tresspassed and violated, then, they will not care at all.

4 youths were screaming for helping, and 15 others just simply ignored it!!!. i bet, if 15 guys acted at the same time, things could be prevented.

eat my words... before this article, i have guessed, no body helped that poor guy and indeed, it's proven. it happened to me many times, it happened to my student too. someone took her bike, she was screaming, but nobody seemed care for what happened!!!. for god sake, it happened just at the corner of our university.

Which University?

If 15 people stand around and watch as 1 guy gets a good kicking then what are the chances that 14 of them are going to still stand around while you get your head stomped on?

Are you going to take that chance, knowing that these very same 14 people have done nothing to help.

As I said earilier (if you had bothered to read the rest of the thread) the only way I could stop these guys would be to injure them and then I would have to stand in front of people like you with your 20/20 hindsight and try and explain why I shouldn't go to jail.

You jump in with a half turn lebanese kickbox to the head, mate. Feck, you do whatever is necessary to square up the fight some more. Just the fact that another person looked like they were going to jump in would probably be enough to deter these guys from doing serious damage. There is simply no way I could stand by and watch an innocent guy getting beaten to death by two people. If you can, then you are a coward.I hope you guys remember this when you're getting your head kicked in by thugs and everyone is just "rationally" walking by offering you no assistance. You people are pathetic and disgust me.

It unfortunately seems to be part of society here just to mind your own business though and not get involved. I was riding to work the other day, and some guy had broken down in his car at the lights and was trying to push it himself around the corner, struggling and holding up traffic. Loads of people were getting off at the bus stop beside the intersection and just walking past, trying not to look at him. Even in such an innocent situation, no one was willing to help.

Funnily enough, when I rode my bike back to help the guy, he didn't even thank me afterwards, as if I'd hassled him somewhat. People in this "sozialistisches democracy" need to learn a bit of socialism that doesn't just mean high taxes.

That's right. But even if you don't have a family to care for and you don't have children who need their parent - even if you've just a useless existence achieving anything in society and not looking after anyone apart from yourself, it's still your god damn right to put your own life before that of another person.

The last sentence says it all. It looks like you haven't encountered a lot (if any) situations with violence like this. You can believe whatever you want. Maybe you would help, maybe not. Maybe you would get killed, too, maybe not. The only thing that is sure is that yo…[/quote]And I hope you never come into this type of situation and then suddenly realize that you are not brave enough.

and yes, even the commentators here, they are more or less, reflect the society.

if 15 people standed together hand in hand, let's say, 7 vs 1, i really don't think those 2 boys had a chance.

not surprising me what people write here. since, they are reflection of the society itself. they are afraid to do so. they just want to stay in their own comfort-zone.

What about that University?

I would clearly not expect a complete stranger to risk his own life in such a situation.

I was being sarcastic, and quoting the great Greek Australian Guido Hatzis. It looks like you haven't encountered a lot (if any) situations with humour like this.

Have to agree with Hutcho, you folk are absolutely shocking and cowards at best. I have been in this position where someone was being attacked and intervened, yes I got a fair few punches to the face and a chipped tooth, but nothing that I couldn't handle and thanks to me intervening the other guy didn't get the beating that he was bound to get.

You do have to asses the situation and I thought that I would come off the better if it did come down to it and by all accounts 15 other folk who were there could have assessed the situation and even if only a third of them got involved this guy would not be dead.

How anyone can say they would stand by and allow this to happen is beyond me.

Well, the 15 people were not standing there hand in hand, were they?

Perhaps if they'd all been members of a family, a Kegelverein or sports team who can communicate and agree very quickly and know that they can rely on each other - they could have jumped on the two guys and overpowered them.

But here the conditions were very different and less fortunate.

@ chrisimo, it happened when i did some experiments in eastern part of germany.

i myself based on NRW.

This is probably sarcastic as well, right? Just like Hutcho's post.

Is it .

You're talking about beating. But there's a difference between a chipped tooth and risking your f***ing life.

Perhaps you should take that halo off your head and see things as they are.

The only difference between a chipped tooth and death is one wrongly placed kick -> if you want to stick your head in the sand Frieda123 - so be it - but don't knock the people who don't

People who really help in these cases rarely accuse others of being cowards.

What makes you think that?

So there are only certain types of people that would do something?!!!

Germany expects YOU to do something. There are laws in place to insist that you help (wihout putting yourself in immediate danger).

So, if the attackers did not have a gun or knife then I would not hesitate. A knife and I would have to think twice and make snap decisions and a gun....well nobody is that brave!!!

Talking to people like that (mostly bouncers and people who were involved in fights before). Many of them say that they got a lot more than what they expected and came out on top just because of their strength and/or help of others (of course it also happens that you mere presence will scare people off - but your body/muscle size has a lot to do with it, as well as self confidence of course) . People who were involved in fights were the opponents had to be incapacitated know how rage and adrenaline can keep a person going. If you go into this type of situations with the intention to help the victim and are not prepared to destroy the attackers will to fight (for example by grabbing the leader and attacking him in a brutal fashion to discourage the others) then you are likely to lose.

People who have been in this kind of situations mostly know how difficult it can be to enter such a situation (even if you have experience) and are, in my experience, not degrading others who choose not to intervene.

What I meant to say is that a lot of people have big mouths and once it is time to act they are scared. Those guys very often are the loudest when condemning others for not fighting. At least in my experience.

and what do you think about this poor dead guy -> what would he now say about those who stood and watched?

I'm not going to argue with you about tactics of fighting because I'm not an expert and by your own admission you are not either.

But I can tell you one thing, there is a big difference between incapacitating and bringing someone under control (something that bouncers would have to do) than just deterring someone from continuing to beat the out of another person. The latter is a lot easier, especially when you have numbers on your side, which should almost always be the case if the average person is willing to take a stand like they should.

Remember that you cannot blame the group without blaming the individual. Would you blame every individual in this group for not stepping in alone, knowing that the chances of the others joining him are small?

Being in that situation I would get involved only if at least one more person from the crowd join me, provided I want to get involved at all. And I've fought many times back in my days, even fights against people much bigger than me and knowing I would most probably lose.

Yes, if the others help there is a very good chance that the attack will stop. Nonetheless you have to start as an individual not knowing if the others will join you. And just the fact that you are trying to help will make you the target of a similar assault. Now imagine that you are not physically stronger than anyone of the attackers. One against many is nearly impossible to win if the others really want to fight you.

Tell me: Knowing that (at least in Germany) most people will not come to your help - do you really blame individual people for not helping?

For all we know these 15 people were teenagers, pensioners or a parent with a kid in a stroller. As mentioned above, German law compels you to help as long as you don't endanger yourself.

I'm not blaming anyone -> I'm not accusing anyone of been a coward.

The types of people that would help in these situations range from those that will shout about what they did from the hill-tops to those that would never mention it if their life depended on it.

If you do want to talk types, as I mentioned in a previous post -> I think the majority of people that do help as simply those that act on instinct and "fail to look before they leap"!!!

What they do after they have "stuck there nose in" and start to really think "oops what have I done" is more to do with bravery.

I wouldn't expect a 50kg woman to jump in and help in this situation, but I think it's unlikely that no one out of the 15 could have offered some physical assistance.

And I would most certainly blame any individual person for not helping to the extent of their abilities, which for fully grown men involves cracking a few skulls considering the opponents were only 17 and 18 and that you would already be the second guy in the fight.

Hutcho, I understand your good intentions, but you are talking about a situation where common sense does not apply. You might think you will react in that way, but at the end of the day something else might happen.

You said yourself that you don't have any experience with fights. Please go into a martial arts (of self defense or whatever) course and ask for a demonstration of a two on one fight. These kind of fights don't happen like in movies where only one attacks at a time. It is possible of course that those two didn't have the experience or the will to fully use their advantage, but we can't know that from here. Do we have any information about their size? That they are only 17 and 18 doesn't mean that they have no experience in fights or are not strong. And what tells you that Dominic was still able to fight back?

Ok. Here's a conundrum. What if you saw the two perpetrators of this attack getting a good kicking from another gang?

Would you step in to help or would you leave them to take their punishment?

They know who they are and I suspect a few of them will not be able to sleep at night because of what they saw. They too are gifted with hindsight and I am sure that this will also be playing on their conscience. Hindisght is a gift that seems to be full in abundance on this forum!!!

It is not a conundrum. It is a 'what if' and a big one at that...total nonsense.

Agreed and so might the vice versa ie you stepping in while thinking that you wouldn't.

I am with Hutcho here. I have often heard here that I never take a stand or sides but I feel it is not important. I know my opinion on politics, and religion so no need to reinstate that because I dont have to prove anything and because it is a small battle. Yet twhat happened at the station is a big battle. Someones life was in danger and i do not believe I could live with myself knowing I did not do something about it. I try to be a pacifist but even I admit there would be only a certain level I could tolerate and this would probably exceed that level.

I'm amazed that out of 15 people standing there with their teeth in their head, not one of them had the presence of mind to whip out a mobile phone or digital camera and start filming. One would think that might've defused the situation right away without the need for physical intervention.

There's that moment during the newsteam gangfight in Anchorman where Brick just starts yelling insanely. My mother was involved in a rape crisis center back in the 1970s, and used to say the best thing one can do in a situation where other people are being assaulted to is start acting crazy.

The big and slightly worrying issue is that if you did decide to help (as German law dictates, but also common sense dictates) and then killed or maimed an attacker (one punch has on many occasion proven to be enough) then you are going to be floating up creek without a paddle!!! Especially without any CCTV evidence.

German law doesn't dictate that you have to help in a situation like this.

Incorrect, I said I was not an expert.That's actually exactly my point. A two on one fight is heavily weighted towards the aggressor, if just one other person is willing to get involved, it can defuse the situation a lot. In this case, there were likely a number of people that could have jumped in to help.

Yes it DOES. You should try and assist people providing that you do not endanger yourself. That is the summary of the law. It is a shame to have to explain one of your laws to you.

It depends on the situation. You could be prosecuted if you don't help, but I don't think that should be the the point. As sarabyrd mentioned earlier in this thread Dominik Brunner could still be alive if he wasn't the only one who tried to help. My heart goes out to his family.

I think getting involved in a fight would be considered endangering yourself.

FFS groundhog day!!! It was 2 on 1.....had it changed to 2 on 2 then the filthy teen coward scum would have backed out. They were not bladed up. Sleepless: Remind me not to save you if you get into trouble!!!

The point being: You don't have to endanger yourself.

Meaning in this case: The law doesn't dictate you to help.

Read rulings about 'Unterlassene Hilfeleistung'.

Yes, that is all I got for helping a guy who looked as though he would have had a whole lot worse done to him than if I hadn't help, so the point I'm making is that I suffered a bruised face and a chipped tooth for helping a guy who could have suffered the same fate as the victim of this attack.

A small price to pay, don't you think.

Really and you can say this for certain how? What use would the other guy have been if he is already on the ground unconscious? And then its 2 of them against 1 again. You can't say for certain how any fight will turn out no matter how you envisage it now.

wouldn't it be nice if real life was like spiderman II where spiderman was on the floor and the prof came back. All the new yorkers stood together saying "you'll have to go through us first" - Of course he did!!!

It is your duty to get as many others involved, even if some do cower behind you. Or you cower behind someone. Other people will also be considering it at thinking that they are the only one. If someone else makes the first move, it is easy to back them up.

Dominik made the first move to protect the kids and no one backed him up.

which is why, in most cases, all it takes is for one person to take control. You address people in the crowd directly and tell them to do something. You don't call out in general for help. The same principle applies to First Aiders in an emergency situation; people will look on dumbfounded and not do anything so you need to take control of the situation and give orders in a firm manner but without sounding like a soldier. People find it easier to act if they are addressed directly, and all too easy not to act if they aren't as they simply think someone else will take care of the situation.

As per my post in the other thread.

A lot of internet tough guys seem to be weighing in on this.

Guess what - this isn't 5000 BC. The population are not walking around carrying clubs and fighting tigers. We've progressed since then.

99.9% of people don't have the slightest idea of how to fight, let alone diffuse/intervene in a violent confrontation. Most people don't like physically striking blows upon another human being. Myself happily included.

Unless you live in an extremely violent place, the normal reaction to something like this would be "WTF?! Holy !", not "Stand back! I'm gonna go drop kick that kid in the head".

If your immediate reaction is the latter, hey, good for you. Go try it.

But don't call people "cowards" if they don't want to get involved. Is it "cowardly" not to want try skydiving if you have no experience or training? Because it's exactly the same thing. Both involve the possibility of death.

If you think you can do it without dying or getting yourself maimed, be my guest. Just don't get upset if the rest of us would rather watch from the sidelines because we don't know what we're doing.

There needn't have been a fight to resolve this situation. Kids like that are mostly cowards and only pick on people they think they can beat up easily (like 2 against 1). If the odds are against them they'll take off, so even if only 3 or 4 off the 15 on-lookers had stepped and fronted up, they'd have in all likelihood backed off and buggered off.

Just been listening to the radio right now... the so called 'experts' are airing their opinion that it does not make a difference between 5 or 15 years of jail term.

Makes me want to throw up!!! I am of the opinion that these teenies should get maximum jail term.

Those two probably would have done the same even if it meant prison for life. That's what the 'experts' are talking about.

Which is exactly five or ten years Jugendstrafe ...

There are those who believe prison sentences are 1) deterrents, 2) punishments, 3) rehabilitation opportunities or 4) simple removal of bad actors in order to protect society to prevent further crimes, or some combination thereof.

If these "experts" are commenting on #1, they may, in fact, have a point. If it's on #2, they're undeniable wrong (getting out of the pokey at 33 versus 23 is undeniably a much worse punishment in the context of an average human lifespan). If it's #3, well, that's what parole boards are supposed to determine. #4 works unambiguously (as does the death penalty), but with all the attendant issues of cost to society, the chance of false conviction and the sort of society one wants to create; lots of petty thieves in Europe were sent to Australia or French Guiana.

It all comes down to a society's view of what prison time is supposed to accomplish. Germany clearly leans towards a more rehabilitative concept, perhaps because they had a history that included slave labor and death sentences for those who made poor choices of their parents' religion or non-German place of origin.

[quote name='Jon Blaze' date='16.Sep.2009, 2:44pm' timestamp='1253105087' post='1768101']Guess what - this isn't 5000 BC. The population are not walking around carrying clubs and fighting tigers. We've progressed since then.

What I've noticed over the years I've lived here is the Germans will rubberneck, they'll watch and try to get in your personal business, they're even quick to point out something they think that's not kosher acting like citizen police; they intrude on your personal space; and most of them are upstanding law abiding citizens and respect the law. But what perplexes me about what's reported about this incident is they stood by watching this go down or passed by and didn't intervene or even admonish the perpetrators.

With this incident there seems to be some incongruency in their behavior in terms of what I've observed over the years.

I'm surprised the little old lady didn't poke them or even hit them with her umbrella.

I have some street fighting skills and I would not fight someone if I see he has much better skills than me. You can say I am a coward, the difference is I fought many times before and I know what can happen.

If I fought every time I had a chance in my life, I wouldn't be alive.

I'm in no way suggesting to fight at every opportunity. Even in a situation like this, there might not be any need to fight, especially if more than one person had have helped him. Confrontation alone could have saved the guys life. In any case, an early intervention might have given time for an escape.

I can understand when people get scared at the time and hesitate to do something. I'm however disgusted to discover that people will actually speak up here suggesting that it is ok just to mind your own business and watch someone get beaten to death.

That statement couldn't be wronger. Experience and training is everything when it comes to acting correctly in a violent encounter, from assessing the situation to physically intervening and getting yourself and the victim(s) in safety.

Was anyone on the u-bahns or s-bahns tonight when they had the moment of silence at 6:30?

On how different people react, I think it really depends on the situation. I once jumped out in front of a fleeing shoplifter after I heard the store owner call out ?Stop thief!!!?. Even though I'm a VERY petite woman, I really had the goal of stopping this man. But I was with my sister and 3-year old nephew at the time and a millisecond after I jumped out in front of this guy I remember thinking ?He might hurt my nephew? And I immediately jumped back out of the way. However, my jumping in front of the guy slowed him down long enough that he dropped what he stole and kept on running. In the end, noone got hurt and the stolen property was returned. It could have played out badly, I know, but I honestly didn't even think before I acted. I wasn't trying to play hero. I acted on pure instinct from someone else's call for help.

What do you all think about throwing things (beer bottles, shopping carts, nearest yappy dog, etc.) at the thugs to distract them from their victim? And throwing them in such a way that they don't know who from the crowd of 15 threw it? Do you think that's a good option for those people who would like to help but can't fight?

I was waiting at Ostbahnhof at 6:30 pm. There was an S8 waiting for departure. They announced the moment of silence via the loudspeakers, and I had the impression that most of the people waiting really respected it. Not those rushing up the stairs, happy they still would catch their train. After the silence, the train took off.

If they would think about any consequences, like 5 or 10 years in jail or killing somebody, they wouldn't have started kicking him.

The problem is they don't think.

Yes, they do, and so do people all over the world. But if they did not, and didn't occasionally act on what they see or hear, there could be even more kids found dead in some plant pot or freezer, or beaten to death by their 'loving' parents with 'the right to have kids'? So the problem is, where to draw a line. Is it intrusive to ask what's going on when a neighbour's kid screams their head off every day - after all, there could be a perfectly normal reason, like having to take horrible-tasting medicine....Kicking someone beyond the needful - until he stops pushing broken glass into anyone's face - is always wrong, no matter what happened before?

You are missing the point. Do you really think all those 15 people were in the same wagon Dominik was and all of them saw everything that happened before the final events? Probably most of them just saw 2 teenagers fighting an old man. If you just arrived in the place, how do you know who the victim is?

I think in this case it was pretty clear what with the kids who were being bullied asking for anyone to help, oder? And besides, even if you don't know who the "bad guys" are, wouldn't it make sense to try to diffuse any violent situation?

I would never get involved in a fight between NS skinheads and antifascists. But that's just me.

I agree with this, you do assess the situation. You are not going to wade in on an empty S-Bahn platform in the middle of the night while 10 guys beat up one. However, this was not the case here and 15 people let a man be beat to death right in front of them in the middle of the day when, if even a few had the balls to do something this guy would be recovering from a sore head and a few broken bones, not six feet under.You make it sound that you are about to go 12 rounds with Mike Tyson or spar with Bruce Lee. These guys were common thugs who probably have no "experience and training" just the mentality that there are more of us than there is of them. Had the other people even caused a slight scene that mentality would have seen them stop.I don't think your point is a valid one. Say he had done something wrong whatever that maybe who are two teenagers to decide his fate? As you've stated before you have some experience in fighting and what is the first rule, once a man is down the fight is over you don't continue to kick him while he's on the ground, even if he was the instigator.

Sorry, that's not the rule where I come from, that might be Chuck Norris' honor code but real life is different. I would kick the out of the other person even if he is on the ground because that could be my only chance to finish the fight, specially if he is bigger than me. I would stop only when I clearly see that he has no chance to stand up again. I would try not to kick the person in the head, though.

And as I said before, in fights things happen very fast, a tough fight can last 30 to 90 seconds, those 10 minutes fights only happen in the movies, you need to be really fit to stand more than 3 minutes fighting.

Anyway, around here it is totally different, as someone mentioned before, probably 99.9% of the people do not have any fighting skills.

Sorry, that is generally what I meant. Once you have them "down" there is no need to keep going. Which is something you see a lot of these days. Gangs of kids beating the person down and even when it looks like they have absolutely no fight left in them, they keep going and this is generally when the serious injuries occur.

[pedantic but relevant]diffuse (v.) - spread, propagate, disseminate

defuse (v.) - make less dangerous, render harmless

[/off]

Well, I surely hope that's not the case with the majority of the people here, seeing as we're in a country that breeds some of these idiots. If everyone takes this stance then no matter how many numbers show up at each demonstration against these lowlifes, they still have the last laugh knowing that there is no strength in these numbers!

And getting involved doesn't just have to be about sizing the guys up and asking yourself ?Can I really take on these guys??. I'd like to think that people who would see such a situation would be asking themselves ?What can I do to stop this?? What makes us human is our ability to go beyond the natural instincts of ?Must eat. Must sleep. Must survive.?

Hee hee...whoops, thanks for catching that Kay. I was typing that with a cranky baby in hand

These guys (Nazi Skinheads and Antifas) are often the same type of scum, just different sides.

I'm glad you didn't mind, unlike the person who gave me a negative rating for pointing out the difference!

Edit: And another for this post. Somebody must have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

Then tell me what else can you do to stop the thing? Calling the Police? There is no way the Police can be there in 15 seconds. The only chance I see is getting involved.

As I mentioned before, if I were there I would check the size of the two guys, check two or three of their movements and then decide if I think I can take one of them, then I will scan the crowd looking for eye contact with someone who could join me, if I find someone I might go for it. If I think the whole thing will put me too much in danger, sorry, I would not get involved at all because I am not stupid and I have a family to take care.

The highlighted parts are exactly what others forget about in this thread. They just assume that 17 and 18 year old guys can't be a threat to a grown man, will back off if only one attacks them (because they assume that the victim is still able to fight) and on top of all they think that they can have a fair fight with these guys.

That's what I'm trying to figure out myself here. That's why I asked if throwing things at the people doing the beating might help. Or set…[/quote]I like the making eye contact with someone to see if they could join you idea. And I agree, one has to think of their own safety. If I were there with my baby...man, I'd be in tears just from the feeling of sheer helplessness. I guess I'm still trying to ask: for people who can't fight, how can we deal with this situation? How can we rally each other into action?

The only thing guaranteed to stop people attacking someone and/or turning on you is to incapacitate. This means you have to injure them, possibly severely. Unfortunately if you manage it (that's a big if) it will get you in trouble with the police. It's a lose-lose.

Actually, §§ 32-35 of the StGB cover you in such cases. Far too broadly too, in my opinion.

And what's the big if, especially when he's occupied with beating someone else? Kick to the back of the knee, knee in the solarplexus, and a kick straight to the face once he's down for good measure. Turn him over and put your weight on his neck or on his spine to hold him in place. And yes, that's a valid "defensive action" under §§ 32-35.

And for people who can't do the above, there's always pepperspray. 5 bucks at a random vending machine. These wannabe gangsta types drop everything instantly if you get em straight in the eyes and keep out of their reach afterwards.

Not neccessarily, no. There are a lot of cases where people got convicted for too much violence. Bullshit. You have not seen people fight in full rage. Knee in the solarplexus? Please...Yeah, and the other one gets you from behind.

Fighting is not following a recipe, otherwise everyone who can read would be a Bruce Lee. And really, it is not that easy.

But you made me smile.

Especially since the kick to the back of the knee means he's on his knees facing the other way.

There are no easy, quick ways of stopping assailants. The only effective ways are highly dangerous and likely to cause serious injury or death. Don't forget, if there's more than one you can't just knock them down because while you deal with the other/s he'll get back up and have another go.

No, I got that point. What I was saying is that no matter what the person lying on the floor NOW and having his head kicked to bloody pieces NOW did before is irrelevant, you'd have to help him NOW against what clearly got carried far beyond disabling an attacker. The youngsters would be well within their rights if they kicked the man to keep him from hurting others, but that does not mean they can carry on endlessly and even after he's way beyond being any danger to his former victim. So then, at the very latest, the bystanders should have acted and kept the youngsters from doing any more harm to the man.

According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung, an audio specialist testifying in a case in Augsburg let the information slip that the police is in possession of a tape recording of the attack on the S-Bahn platform. While the source of the recording has not yet been disclosed it has been confirmed that the recording was made when the police emergency number was called. Possibly, one of the children whom Brunner was protecting called 110, possibly the repeat button was activated on Brunner's cell phone during the attack.This recording is invaluable for the reconstruction of the crime and can prove the key item of evidence when the culprits are tried.