Woman killed in courtroom bloodbath was pregnant

why did this man killed this poor MUSLIM vieled pregnent woman? nothing in this article reveals the truth ..or say anything about the woman ...she is an egyptian 30 years old woman a pharmist married and was pregnent and her husbund was there with her in germany working on this PHD that was about to discuss in 6 months ....but why the hell was this woman killed? because of her viel ..i hope that the german fedrals investigate and find the truth and this man has his punishment for killing this innocent woman and her child she was beholding

Manslaughter?

What difference does it make that the woman was Muslim, it is more of a crime to kill a Muslim than a Christian?

No, but I think it's more reprehensible to kill a woman for her religious beliefs. And it's just plain stupid to kill someone because they wear a certain piece of clothing. In certain states in the US, it's very possible this whole incident would be prosecuted as a hate crime.

Jesus. Her poor family.

So you think things were better before?

I was half awake yesterday when I woke up and found that a single murder was leading the National news, which I found puzzling, since it's such a common crime now in the US and would not be a Top of The Hour story, not even on Fox.

Now I understand why.

The insane things these psychos kill over.

I wonder where they get their ideas that one religion is better than anybody else's?

I'm sure this idiot believes that the veil is an expression of the intolerance and bigotry of Muslims.

If it wasn't so utterly tragic it would be ironic.

I hope his cellmates are chronically sex-starved and just in the mood for a piece of his reprehensible ass.

I am a muslim, living in Germany, and I feel the difference every day on my skin. Every time some lunatic, declared as muslim, does the same to christians, all news agencies have it written across the main page: "Terrorism". What is this????

I´ve got news from you. The perpetrator of the crime is of Russian origin.

And you can back that assertion up with what?

Seriously, what in the h.ell are you talking about? How many more Turks are there in Germany than Russians? I know there are a lot of Russians(I read that this guy was actually just from somewhere vague, like "near the Caucasus.." or something.. ) I get the impression this guy is just some wingnut.., who quite possibly hasn't even been here long.

The Turkish scumbag who kicked that elderly man in the head though in Munich should also be in a prison cell... Or actually, not even that - why should Germans pay to feed and house him. He should be dumped over the border, in the sea if necessary... Or shipped back to wherever he came from..

Same with this guy..

Any Turkish kid like the one you describe above can get German citizenship. I don't know why you claim that they can't. Furthermore, anyone 9 and 1/2 or younger born in Germany to at least one parent who has resided here for at least eight years was born with German citizenship. I also doubt ethnic Turks born in Germany would want to be told that they aren't eligible for Turkish citizenship based upon their blood relationship to Turkish parents.

A woman stabbed to death in a German court was an Egyptian who had sued her attacker after he insulted her for wearing the Islamic headscarf, Egyptian newspapers reported on Friday.

Marwa al-Sherbini, 32, who was killed in a court in Dresden on Wednesday, was the wife of Egyptian academic Elwi Ali Okaz who was also hurt in the incident and is now in critical condition in hospital, the state-owned Al-Akhbar reported.

The attacker stabbed Sherbini "shortly before she was to give evidence in an appeal lodged by the man against a conviction for insulting her over wearing the hijab," said the state-owned Egyptian Gazette.

The 28-year-old man, identified only as Axel W, was overpowered and was being investigated for manslaughter over the killing of the woman, a spokesman for the Dresden prosecutor's office said.

According to egyptian reports, the woman was pregnant in her first trimester, she is having a 3 years old child.

[color=gray]Topics merged by admin

Do you want to have some cheese with your whine? I just wanted to refute the very simple attempt to blame it all on the East Germans, just as if the most murderous attacks on foreigners hadn't happened in the West. As to that Turkish man who got jailed because of the attack in the Munich subway I have some piece of advice: don't commit a brutal crime while being filmed by a CCTV camera if you want to avoid bad publicity.

There is a thread on that topic already: [topic="140590">Defendant kills witness in Dresden court[/topic]

And no, foreign women are just getting killed indiscriminately in large numbers in Germany each day.

He can't.

N24 ran the story, repeatedly, as a 4 minute segment, yesterday, but I guess The Legend, (in his own mind), was too busy keeping up with the latest Michael Jackson news.

Or something.

I've always found it to be a good practice to be aware of what was going on around me in my surroundings, wherever it is I may happen to be, but I guess that's just not for everybody.

A Single Murder, An Everyday Occurence In America; So Rare in Europe That It's National News

Nice updo Stephanie's got there, you think?

Like the jacket she's wearing too, really complements her hair and totally brings out the radiance of her skin.

She got robbed by Der Bild not naming her as one of Germany's Top 100 Women.

Guess they just can't handle brains and beauty in one person, probably intimidates them.

If it were my policies the German government were implementing, dual citizenship would be permitted for all either at birth if applicable, i.e., being born to one German parent and one non-German parent, or via naturalization.

IIRC, German citizenship isn't being given automatically anymore to Aussiedler (descendants of German emigrants to Russia and other countries in Eastern Europe) whereas the children of long-term residents of the country whose parents are not German citizens have since 2000 automatically gotten German citizenship at birth. Furthermore, to complain that the non-German kid who has lived in Germany for 18 years "will not be given a [German] citizenship" since they can apply for naturalization as a German is disingenous.

Someone who has lived here for 18 months should easily pass the B1 exam (much less someone already here for 18 years) and someone who has lived here for 18 years will have no trouble with the citizenship test. Someone who has already lived here for 18 years, especially someone who was educated in German schools, will not be asked to take the Integration Course (which is what I believe you are referring to when you say "Orientation Course") nor would someone who had grown up here be asked to take the B1 exam. None of these things you mentioned are anyhow onerous, even for those who currently and in the future have to take the Integration Course. What country are you from anyway? Would you expect to just show up in Germany and be automatically handed citizenship?

Tracking is generally a good idea, and BTW, are you aware that someone placed in Realschule can work their way into Gymanasium (I know two people who did this)?

To be honest, your hyperbolic statements are not helpful to a discussion of the challenges faced by many people in Germany. Yes there is significant discrimination in employment and the playing field isn't level for many people: however, you exaggerate and get stuck in tangential stuff like rules that affected the Aussiedler most recently in the early 1990s.

Speaking of the Aussiedler, it's quite a bit tougher for them to get here these days than you imply:

http://www.migrationeducation.org/22.0.html

"And even if ..." what?

When you wrote the above rubbish it was obvious that what you had to say could be taken with a pinch of salt. I know that what you said is a load of crap, because I saw it reported on various channels at various times yesterday. In your endeavour to [s]bullshit[/s] say something *cough* sooo certainly you even claim to be "110% sure".

Your subsequent ramblings confirm 110%ly, that my initial assessment was correct.

How about getting some facts correct before you continue to make an ass of yourself? Maybe remember that: "Less is sometimes more"

The only reason this TERRORISM killed this pregrent Muslim lady because of her Islamic headscarf!!!! thats means there are no civilization or freedom in these countries as they r saying?Imagine that this case happened in Egypt instead ????Westren Goverments STOP pretending we all know the truth by now ,,where is the press in Germany and Austria nothing on the news THERE IS A PREGRENT WOMAN KILLED KILLED IN COURT.Shes an educated young lady a pharmist married to an academic man and im sure that the attacker is just nothing living on earth.may ur soul rest in peace marwa.for all who care im a muslim 30 old woman living in Austria ready to co-operate to stand by this case but dont know exectly what to do??plz contect me for any idea (hedoo96@yahoo.com)

INA LLELAH WEANA ALEH LARAGH3OON.

And you will probably fail again to back up that assertion just like last time. Integration tests for foreigners cause Russians to murder Egyptians. That's a nice story. More likely legendophobia...

If retorts like this are the best "discussion" tl can come up with:There is little else one can say. He is soooo 110% convinced about his "facts", yet cannot base them on anything. A waste of O2 space, if you ask me.

Hi all,

First of all, I hope that God rests the soul of Marwa.

I am very proud of you Marwa, and waiting to see you in the next life to say that we all love you my sister. I hope that your husband recover from his injuries very soon.

I am an Egyptian businessman; I travel to Germany every year since I was 10 years old because we own a textile factory and all our machines are German.

I was always saying that Germany is a safe place and that it is the leader of Europe. I was admiring the rules and the security; however now everything has changed.

I will take my precautions when I will be in Germany; and maybe I will not take my wife with me again because she is veiled. Do you beleive that we are killed because of our religion beliefs??????????

I was feeling so sorry when any German tourist is injured or died in Egypt; I feel shame; now it is your time Germans to feel shame.

What happened is awful and shocking, and I feel very sorry for the affected family. In the aftermath, people ask if it couldn't have been prevented, but one has to say that it wasn't foreseeable that a court hearing about a libel case would lead to this; the perpetrator hadn't been violent before, so no particular security precautions were taken. Such hearings are public, and there are no controls, unless something points to the possibility of violence.

The perpetrator now faces murder charges, not manslaughter, see Haftbefehl wegen Mordes erlassen.

More background: The crime happened during an appeal process; the man had been given a fine for insulting the victim, but since he hadn't shown any regrets, the prosecutor wanted the sentence to be increased and appealed. The xenophobic insult wasn't taken lightly by the court.

Let's try to re-focus...

- Axel, the Russian-German killed Marwa, the Egyptian woman

- The reason for the crime is hate

- Husband of Marwa tried to protect his wife, while Axel stabbed her 18 times (!)

- It is unknown what the others, who were already in the court room, did while the husband was trying to protect her

- A police entered the room during the fight, and made a judgment call within seconds and shot the husband, thinking that he's the perpetrator (white vs. brown; white wins)

- The husband was in coma but got out of the coma today

- The crime is not covered much any more. Bild seems to still follow it, my searches didn't result in much.

I fail to see this as a one-off event. It seems that I'm witnessing or experiencing some form of prejudice on a daily basis these days. The refined ones "discuss" about it over a glass of Riesling or two, and the unrefined ones like Axel here, take the matters in their own hands.

As the unemployment increases, and as politicians such as Merkel and Koch not only continue to ignore xenophobia as a problem but seem to support such views and actions, I expect to see more crimes in the near future. Corrective actions are needed. Not having a corrective action plan means in fact having a de facto plan to allow the hate crimes to continue, if not increase.

THE LADDER OF PREJUDICE

Prejudice is defined as negative, irrational feelings or attitudes toward a group of people that are based not on fact but on preconceived ideas and notions. In his book, ?The Nature of Prejudice,? Gordon W. Allport describes prejudice as a ladder with several rungs, or levels. As people ?climb? up the ladder of prejudice, increasingly negative actions result.

1. Speech

Prejudice first manifests itself through talking or making fun of a group of people. Such negative comments are usually the result of stereotyping ? creating an oversimplified opinion, idea or belief about that group of people.

2. Avoidance

The next step up the ladder of prejudice involves avoiding the group of people that has been stereotyped. Avoidance leads to lack of contact with the group and ignorance about the people involved.

3. Discrimination

Avoidance of a group of people eventually leads to discrimination ? treating someone differently. Discrimination takes many forms, from denying someone a job to segregation, which means separating a person from the rest of society.

4. Physical Attack

People who are discriminated against are often the victims of physical attack. The attack is usually the expression of the anger or resentment that have built up through the first steps of prejudice.

5. Extermination

Sometimes physical attacks against a group of people turn deadly. This final step in the ladder of prejudice has been present in society since the earliest days.I felt a similar relief as you did. My immediate thought was, I hope they're not Turkish, or else we're further doomed. Isn't this stupid and sad?

Appreciate an Auslaender today

Ok, the killer is lunatic fanatic person most probably won't be condemned and will only spend some time in hospital where they will treat him.

What about the police man. On which bases he shot the husband? I bit it was based on face color and racial characteristics.

What about the Judge? 750 Euro. What if the poor Egyptian women was the insulter? She would be jailed and expelled out of Germany.

This is a racial crime from the German Society by all means.

The Egyptian diplomats should be ashamed describing the crime as an individual crime.

Shame on them, shame on German police and shame on the judge.

The thing I will do, my firm will stop dealing with any german company untill we see justice take place !

And which firm is that?

Given that a whole number of German visitors were killed in Egypt in the past years the Egyptian diplomats are no position for big words, dear Hossam.

Dear Oblomov,

All Egyptian criminal who may murdered foreigners are subjected to fair and effective trials. Lately for killing a for a Lebanese play girl in Dubai, an Egyptian tycoon was sentenced to death.

But wait a minute, I thought Europe is setting an example for relegious freedom!

So what do you have to say about the maltreatment of Christian Copts in Egypt? Would your firm be willing to deal with the local Egyptian agent of a German company?

Well, that´s hardly more than what can be reasonably be expected. It doesn´t change the deplorable fact that quite a few foreign visitors were killed in Egypt in the past years, among them a substantial number of Germans.

I am married to an Egyptian. Both of us are christians and we are on the side of the Egyptian woman and husband.We believe that anyone should practice their religion without being judged.The Egyptian couple was respectable and usually for people who do not know the ones who leave their country(speaking mostly of the Arab countries where is difficult to obtain a visa)are educated and respectable.I believe that God will make justice and the only thing that you can do is to pray for the husband to recover over the physical pain and mantally.I cannot imagine living without my husband and I cannot imagine how hurted he is.I will pray for you Ali and the Lord Jesus will heal your heart..From now on this is how is going to be..The end of the world is soon and everything will go from worse to worse.Continue to pray ! Rabena maakom

Manslaughter, Manslaughter this was premeditated MURDER no question. Manslaughter is what 2, 4 maybe 7 years? Whether she was a foreigner or not, a mother, wife isn't important to the court, has cold as that sounds and it does it's the truth. But being pregnant, I hope put some weight on this case. Equal justice is not always carried out by the courts in any country and I doubt it will in this case. Civility is not a given these days, hence the reason judges and lawyers in the USA, carry guns to court. and GoD knows with have our problems, I'm not a gun activist by no means. But, I believe in the rights to bear arms and the protection for all. So, if I were her husband I would sue the court, the town, the state who ever I could for not protecting his wife. This is the only way you change the law, you have to change it in court. peace out

I think most of us would agree that no one other than those responsible for security at a courthouse should carry weapons there.

Not sure what was meant by "equal justice" but the charge is murder, not manslaugter.

In answer to a previous question about what others in the courtroom at the time did while the attack was ongoing- they subdued the attacker.

Oblomov and Conquistador, are you guys trying to belittle the crime, change the subject or justify the killing of an Egyptian? I don't understand what you are trying to defend here. I expect any reasonable human being to be on their side, regardless of their religion or non-religion. Is there another side anyway?

What surprises me is that in this article there seems to be some sort of cover up to the fact that when the Policeman entered the Court he actually shot at the woman's poor husband who was trying to defend his wife from this monster stabbing her. The husband is a successful academic, the murderer is some criminal carrying a knife stabbing the woman and her husband, Yet the Policeman shoots the husband,

You really have to wonder why did the Policeman shoot the husband?

All those in Court did very little to defend the poor woman and her husband.

This raises so many questions about the racism of German cultural as a whole.

The Title for this should have been something like MUSLIM WOMAN STABBED TO DEATH IN GERMAN COURT. GERMAN POLICEMAN SHOOTS HER HUSBAND WHO IS TRYING TO DEFEND HER WHILE BYSTANDERS ARE DOING VERY LITTLE TO DEFEND THE POOR WOMAN. This would have been an honest Title that highlights the problems of German culture since the times of Hitler till now.

The perpetrator is some total outsider to Germany, or? So is the victim, from what I understand... So I don't see Germany or any of its cultural issues as having anything to do with this..

Take the case of Theo van Gogh though... Can you imagine if some Saudi Arabian film-maker had made a film critical of the West - IN Saudi Arabia - and then been murdered on the streets of Riyadh by a fanatical Westerner for it??? And then everybody all around the Muslim world being all hush hush about it so as not offend Westerners and maintain some ludicrous PC status quo..???...

What happened in Dresden, as far as I understand, was a freak incident perpetrated by some random outsider wingnut... Germany is a free and open country, that lets all kinds of people in.. So all kinds of things can happen here.. So stop blaming Germany and German culture.

The van Gogh case though is FAR more problematic culturally..

Racist cnut that died in the gutter.

Look somewhere else for tears.

aub

Murdered in cold blood by a scumbag Islamo-fascist, let in and accepted into the West all in the name of some bullshit utopian ideal of diversity, openness, and tolerance...

and academic titles and mental imbalance are obviously visible from a far in a chaotic scene a policeman happens upon. who knows what that looked like? maybe the husband had turned his back on the attacker trying to shield his wife from the knife? that could have looked easily as if he had been in the front line of the attack i.e. as if he is the or one of the attackers himself. i find it to be quite the stretch to declare that the policeman entered the situation, ignored the obvious (russian man standing in front of egyptian couple wielding a knife in the air and decided to shoot the person with dark skin. this was very likely a brawl. people upon people with no clear view. maybe the policeman misread the situation or maybe he aimed for the right guy and missed. or maybe he is completely incompetent and freaked out and lost control of his weapon. all possibilities. to outright say he is a racist in a racist country that condones the attempted murder (of the husband) and the murder of the wife is utterly outrages and quite delusional.

i feel for the couple. what a tragedy. especially since the wife was doing the right thing by taking the russian nut to court. just to make that clear before i get jumped on for "supporting" the other side. yikes.

Just for the record: The policeman who shot the husband faces an investigation because he obviously should have assessed the situation better before acting. See Neue Erkenntnisse nach tödlicher Messerattacke.

Re post #50, I'd like to reiterate that it's a charge of murder, with an element of treachery, that will be brought against the killer, according to German newspapers. The Local article got this wrong.

I will get some flak for this, but the parallel strikes me too much not to mention it: Just a few days ago, another femal muslim, a young girl, also wearing a headscarf, was killed in Germany in an equally gruesome manner. See Honour killing. This time however, it was her father that stabbed her to death because he disagreed with her lifestyle (which seemed to have been that of any high-school girl ? she went to a Gymnasium). The father is described as a friendly, inconspicuous man by his environment, but he underwent a mental health examination after being arrested. There are lunatics everywhere, it seems.

Forget about it. Azack was obviously inside the court room and is informed about the next proceedings as well. He should tell us more.

All this outrage about the perpetrator only being charged with manslaughter is ridiculous. He is currently being charged just to keep him in jail. The prosecutor will make up his mind about the legal assessment of the crime when he submits the files to court to have him tried. Even then it is up to the justices to assess the crime. Moreover, the husband can be represented in court and have his views brought forward as a Nebenkläger.

Moreover, both manslaughter and murder cover intentional killings and carry long prison sentences.

Your comments on this thread seem to me to indicate that perhaps you think all Germans as racist, but note what I was responding to:The point being, sparkling, that it was pretty hypocritical to make the remark he did since there is indeed more religious freedom in Europe than in his own country and this incident wasn't about religious freedom or a lack thereof.

sparkling, I suggest you take a look at the comments of azack80 and, especially, thelegend if you are looking for something reprehensible to criticize.

Wow, that's a pretty remarkable assembly of TT members. Thelegend, I guess your nickname is based on your legendary lucidity and reading abilities?

How about that, MT- you are now deemed Islamophobic and xenophobic!

I'm famous for 15 minutes Conq. you are as well!

Why? Germany is full of racist so there is ample 'O2 space' for all of us racists. Absolutely true. Now if all those stupid foreigners would just name their children Alexander and Alexandra there would be no more crimes against foreigners because they would all be German.Of course, why would anybody should another person if he was not a foreigner?I disagree. I think we should raise taxes for the foreigners and buy the cop a nice new house and a Porsche. The perpetrator, of course, should be given a price for exemplary handling of foreign relations. German cops see what they need to see!No, you just don't shoot blond people in Germany if there's a foreigner present. In that case you shoot the foreigner. It's SOP.

Now I hope to have earned being on your list. It seems like a nice badge of honour...

No.

What are you on?

You wanna change your dealer.

Your suggestion that all residents of the eastern states are fascists is not sustainable.

There are issues to be had with organised fascists.

There are issues to be had with the tax system.

But you are off one a wee bit.

I wish someone would liberate us from your sickness.

Without accusing Germans for being racists or bla bla bla ... I've few questions to ask : How long does it take for stabbing a person 18 times?? ..

where were the guards during this dreadful action??

how can a police man in a "court" miss shooting the right criminal after his long action? ... is it so easy to enter a court in germany with a weopon??

khaled - Egypt

There were no guards in the court room during the trial. The police officer entered the court room only afterwards.

The case was only about insults and the perpetrator of that crime apparently had no history of violence, after all.

like the french president insults for muslim women's dress code "few days ago".. or forcing girls to unveil before goin' to school .. etc.

The main problem is that some ppl in europe "not all of them" misunderstand veil , and they even forgot that Virgin Mary her self was always veiled even in all the depicted pictures for her .. I'm not goin' to proceed in that issue ,but we have to admit with our faults and try to correct it as we still living on the same earth.

I don't believe that you will find many if anybody here who considers this man as anything else than a pathological pos who shall rot in jail. He was prosecuted for insulting this poor woman, after all.

As a rule there are no controls for weapons in German courthouses unless there are specific security concerns. As this was the second fatal incident in a German courthouse this year (an elderly German man shot a family member and himself after a protracted inheritance case in Bavaria some months ago) this may change in the future.

yeah .. i hope so

Conquistador, The Copts of Egypt (+/-10%) own more than 50% of Egyptian wealth. The Copts have more control over Egyptian tourism, industry and trade more than Muslims. We as Muslims don't see this as an issue. Their Churches are empty on Sundays. Our Mosques are so full that we pray outside. We as Muslims don't see this as an issue.

If Egyptian Christians want to make money from some fools around the world by crying and weeping, we as Muslims don't see this as an issue. But please don't believe this crap. The truth is that, In Egypt Muslims suffer more than Christian.

The Christian POP in Egypt has a lot of Charisma among Muslims as well as Christians. In Egypt old churches still preserved since Roman time. In other places in Europe, for example in Spain, you don't see old Mosques. Still As Muslims, we don't kill Christians or Jews. As a fact we don't even mistreat them. That is a principal in the Muslim religion. You are totally free to believe it or not but this is my oath.

All east Germans are of Russian origins, and you all know why, right? Some times they try to get rid of this blood mix in their veins, but can they?

This is the most insane thread on TT I have ever read.

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me."

Nathaniel Lee, 17th century playwright

Down with that man...........He has to be slaughtered just as he slaughtered that innocent woman.May her soul rest in peace.Amin

Are you joking? A €780 fine for insulting her headscarf? What sort of nonsense is that?

Can't we all just get along? Everywhere I go I see hate. What is everyone arguing about? The sane guy killed the innocent pregnant woman cuz he hated her...he hated where she came from...he hated her beliefs and hated her religion. It's simple. We cannot defend him by any means. The same way we cannot defend any kind of killing that based on hate or racism. We are filthy on both sides of the fence. We cannot let bad people represent us. All generalizations are false. Let's just all get along and pray in silence; for whatever God you believe in. where is the love?

I don't want to defend the man, but you're simplifying things too much. This guy probably doesn't have a whole lot of money, and he's probably fed up with pushy obnoxious foreigners, and let an insult slip. No one was hurt, nothing was damaged, and yet he was stuck with an enormous fine on some ridiculous grounds because this woman sued him over something so unimportant and WON? that make no sense to me. I'd be pretty upset if I was him too.

What does Idi Amin have to do with the case? He died quite a while ago.

Yes, sure, I mean, wouldn´t we all call a mother on a playground a "terrorist", an "Islamist" and a "slut" just because she asks us to clear the swing so that her kid can use it? It rather looks as if this man is a racist and aggressive c*nt who will justly be on his way to rot in prison. I don't believe that killing a pregnant woman will endear him to most of the other inmates, btw.

You honestly think his insults inflicted 780 euros worth of damage? What does it matter if he's a racist? Is belief punishable by fine nowadays? And c*nt is an insult for women.

The state prosecutor didn´t consider 780 Euros as sufficient. As I don´t know his income I don´t know how much this hurt him financially. Yet it is common knowledge that insults aren´t cheap in Germany. Don´t do the crime if you want to avoid paying up.

hossam where are you getting your statistics about copts owning more than 50% of the wealth and being in control of the country. you can count the number of copts in high governmental positions on one hand. dont mix the issues here. you don't know what you're talking about. muslims suffer more than christians in egypt? what a load of BS. don't kid yourself and don't try to kid anyone else.

Yep this one has really opened the doors to the looney bin

"Theres nowt so strange as folk".

Northern saying anon.

It doesn't. The only change is in media and politician coverage. Imagine that the woman was a German Christian woman and the perpetrator was an Egyptian Muslim man, and imagine now how the coverage of the event would be.oh how charitable you are HDB When all the Germans in the world come back to Germany, I will leave you in your then non-diverse, closed and non-tolerant country.Again, what is the point of this post? Justification?I don't believe all Germans are racist, but I do believe most Germans are gullible. I looked at my comments on the thread and nowhere I indicate that all the Germans are racists. My point was, and still is...

- prejudice is increasing in Germany, hate crimes occur

- the Munich case was also a hate crime. The Turkish and Greek youth (yes there was a Greek partner, but everybody wants to remember the Turk only) have beaten up the German guy, and this was very much used by the politicians to feed xenophobia, especially against the Turks. The nationalities of the victim and the criminals were highlighted to a level that nobody remembers the details of the crime or the wounds of the victim any more. But everybody remembers that a Turkish guy has beaten up a German guy.

- the media and the politicians continue to feed the prejudices and the divide between groups continue to increase

- NO CORRECTIVE ACTIONS ARE PLANNED!

I, as a Turkish person of course feel fear, and I don't like it. By now, I am unfortunately used to the verbal prejudices or being avoided by some. Just the other day a conversation at a birthday party ended abruptly as the person asked me where I'm from, to which I replied "Turkey" and the person said "oh ok" and left Stupid, but happens. But what if I find myself in the middle of a crime scene with my darker skin and a police with a gun and media-brainwashed head has to make a one-second judgment call? Who can blame him really?But you guys (there are a few of you) don't write any comment in these lines until page 4 of the thread. You are always in the defensive mode, and this makes one believe that you may be supporting the crime. huh?

Proof? How many do you know? 100,000?How do you figure that? How high was the prejudice level ten years ago and how high is it now?Maybe you only remember the turkish guy. One (not affiliated with a Nazi party) politician did this and it wasn't received very well. Just like everyone remembers those African guy that got beaten to death by Germans in East Germany several years ago. Which media, which politicians?How do you come to that conclusion / what do you expect specifically?Probably just like I felt fear during my youth when I got regularly robbed and beaten by people of turkish descent. Do I think all turks are like this? No. A majority, perhaps? Again, no. Today I know a lot of persons of turkish descent and I get on well with all of them. Even those who used to mistreat me in my youth have developed and are now friendly and we get along. Personal experiences can be very misleading.

In no way do I want to justify this crime (see my post on bottom of p. 2). I mentioned the case of the Turkish girl stabbed by her father because

? It is as incomprehensible as the courtroom stabbing to average people.

? This could support the theory that both killers somehow were not quite right in their head, lead by pathologic fanatism, religious mania, whatever. If that supposition was right, both killers would be isolated perpetrators that emerge in every society.

? Several contributors to this thread, supposedly not living in Germany, have questioned religious freedom in Germany. By pointing to the case of the stabbed Turkish girl, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that religious freedom can be endangered within the Muslim community as well. Father and daughter apparently had different views on "the Muslim way", and while fortunately such conflicts are normally handled non-violently, there have been instances of socalled honour killings (caused by archaic societal norms and non-acceptance of western culture). There's little readiness for self-reflection and self-criticism regarding the inherent problems in the Muslim community.

I don't think that I'm "gullible" to anti-Muslim, anti-Turkish, anti-whatever propaganda. I've had Muslim friends, learned some Arabic at the VHS, generally interested in other cultures. I just think it necessary to open one's eyes and accept the multiple facets of problems. Peace.

Do you know what I remember? The fact that these 2 POS cowards attacked an old man from behind. Until this thread I had forgotten the nationalities.

You use a very broad brush when you accuse the whole of German society of prejudice.

for too many years islam was killing the people u know why? why islam killing people cuz they are not muslim like them like osama bin laden he destroy the world trade center cuz usa is not a muslim country so that egyption woman start the fight she say bad words to christianty thats why the man killed her and she desorf the death

If you would like to discuss honor killings, I suggest you start a new thread. Two wrongs don't make one right. I would be happy to contribute to your thread. However, as this being an expat site, mainly for the English speaking folk living in Germany, I wonder how many people would be interested.

Going back to the Marwa case. What do you think about this case? Why do you think the media and politician coverage are lower than the Munich case? Isn't this unbalanced handling feeding the extremists, on each side?

If you go back and read all the posts in this thread, you will notice no mention of the Greek guy. I must also be surrounded by some not-so-average Germans, cause when I 'test' them, they only know about a Turkish guy beating up an old German guy. Greek or Turk or German shouldn't matter much.

It was a horrible hate crime. But it was also a crime for the politicians to use this crime to feed xenophobia in the country.

Roland Koch, who got the vote and still is in power, who was btw supported by Merkel for his xenophobic campaign. There are still many many German people who didn't vote for Koch, and I like them

What do I expect?

I expect the politicians to first recognize and acknowledge that there is a problem, and this problem is not to be linked with the 'integration problem' please, they are two very distinct problems to be dealt with separately. I expect both Koch and Merkel to make a statement about this crime and shame this guy for killing a woman because of her headscarf. I expect that the average German to start talking about prejudices, hate crimes, why they happen, how they can be prevented, over a glass of Riesling or two, in addition to the "but Turks/Muslims, they can't integrate, they should go back" rhetoric. I do hope you are right and I'm worrying about nothing. I don't want to be right, I just want to be happy

The laws are different in this country, where the crime has happened. It is not an "eye for an eye" type of law, and we are happy about that. Of course, I hope that he will get the maximum penalty possible and will regret his actions every minute of his remaining life.

I could be wrong but I think he lost the election and the only reason he is still in power is that his opponent had no one to form a coalition with. I think you expect too much from our politicians. Look at all the other problems and how they fight them (school massacres, child abuse, etc.).

And I think that this problem has to do with integration. Becuase integration also means that the natives adapt to the immigrants. It's a two-way street, as they say. I honestly don't know what the average German will think and say. But I think that too much assumptions are bad and hinder integration, as well. I don't know if your fear is legitimate. I hope not. But as Yoda said:"Fear leads to the dark side."

I think there are still enough issues that our cultures have to face. Please forgive me if I'm painting a wrong picture here but during my youth I got the impression that younger Turks are more prone to use their fists to settle an argument whereas we Germans have become pussies . Combine that with the observation that people of turkish descent often happen to have many friends and are together in bigger groups and you can see that some problems can arise when the other side (Germans, whatever) is made up of smaller groups who are more afraid to fight. Of course that doesn't mean that German youths are angels. They misbehave as much as turkish youths, just in a different way. And so we are in a positive feedback loop. Turks think that Germans don't want them (and are right, to a degree) and don't make as much effort to integrate and Germans think that Turks don't want to integrate (and are right, to a degree) and they let the Turks feel unwelcome.

SHAM ON YOU...

Police are now investigating Alex W. for manslaughter.

(that man insist to kill and abuse her.nothing stoped him even in the court he dosent care or show any respect to that poor woman .she was a doctor and a mother to achild has 4 years, now he can't sleep at night and keep searching for his mother.

The investigation into this bloody crime is bound to show there are ((some indications the suspect was hostile toward foreigners)).

he killed her in the court , what kind of evidance you wanrt more.

During the struggle, other bystanders were also injured and police fired a shot. ""IT WAS IN HER HUSBAND LEG"".

POLICE shot the husband,

The reason that Koch was re-elected was slightly more complicated than that.

In a foolish move, the SPD claimed they wouldn't work with the Paty Die Linke in the state of Hessen, counting on them not to get elected anyway.

Die Linke however WERE elected into the Landtag.

The leader of the Hessen SPD, Ypsilanti tried to form a minority government but this was torpedoed by the right of the SPD.

A re-run of the elections daw Die Linke confirmed in the Wiesbaden parliament but the SPD vote collapsing.

Be very aware that the right of the SPD would rather have a CDU dominated government than even let another colaitition government be tolerated by Die Linke.

Sorry dude, that's bunk.. People don't focus on the Turkish guy and leave out the Greek guy without reason.. - and for reasons other than just that they're just racist against Turks or whatever.. There is a problematic sub-culture among the German Turkish community - it's much more visible than among Greeks. People think Greeks they think of the nice Greek restaurant around the corner.. They think Turks they think of the anti-social slimey looking youths spitting on the sidewalk in the city-center, gawking and occasionally harassing German girls, etc etc... Yes of course German youths do this too - but that's a different issue and doesn't justify the Turkish scumbags' scumbagginess...

Has anyone else noticed that there are seven or eight people that have commented on this thread that seem to have joined TT specifically to do so?

Nice Greek restaurant owner, scumbag Turkish youth. It's this kind of stereotyping that leads people down the path to racism.

Anyways, let's just hope that the increasing unemployment among the youth (of any nationality or ethnic background) will not increase the hate crimes in the coming months. This is the threat we are facing, and I seriously don't see any Plan A or B. "If they commit a crime, we'll deport them" is not a feasible plan to me. Chrisimo is right about integration being a two way street. It is happening on a lot of threads these days. I think it's because of the "The Local" and TT integration.

Stereotypes don't generally arise completely without reason...

It's The Local link up. It's a wider geographical spread, it's the fact that a lot of old skool posters have other stuff to do or have left posting on TT.

There has certainly been a VERY significant lurch to the right in the past few weeks and it now seems almst mainstream on here to come across racists and indeed, fascists.

SHAM ON THEM

[attachment=106784:shamWOW.jpg]

reply to hohonks !!!

osama bin laden dosn't represent islam..

by the way he is resposible for alote of terrorist actions againist moslim. "in Egypt sharm elsheek 2004"

And you can judge him away from islam or muslims.

At least we know that the lady wasn't one of the terrorist who destroied anything..

and egyption lady didn't start any fightss ,, the man attack her and remove her headscraft couse he didn't like it .. It's hate crime.

and if she was mistaken . why the german court was ordered him to pay fine???

she is a doctor and a mother of child has 4 years. pregnant female !!

I hope that he will get the maximum penalty possible and will regret his actions every minute of his remaining life.

Why shouldn't readers here be interested? Honour killings have happened in Germany, and integration failures and their various causes are a common subject here. Still, I don't want to blow these crimes out of proportion, it's not like they happen at every street corner ? the same as xenophobic violence is not a daily occurence (but still every occurence is one too many).The debate on the Munich U-Bahn beating was stirred by Hessian Minister Koch who was in need of a polarising election campaign topic. He gave it the xenophobic twist, began the discussion about deporting non-German delinquents etc. But, it turned out that he had miscalculated the voters' feeling, and the Hessian election in Jan. 2008 was a well-deserved desaster for him ? 12% loss in votes, while the Social Democrats gained 7,6%. See graphs. No viable coalition could be formed, so another election was held one year later. This time, the Social Democrats lost 13% because of Ms. Ypsilanti-Dilettanti's unwise maneuvres. Eventually, a governing coalition consisting of CDU and Liberal Democrats was formed, with Koch remaining in office.

So why is there a less vivid debate on Marwa's death than about the Munich U-Bahn beating? I think with the latter, besides the partly xenophobic aspects, the other topic was the completely random violence by youths (there were other similar incidents at that time) ? something that hits the nerve of a lot of people who want to feel safe in public locations and who at the same time ask 'what is going wrong with education?' ? irrespective of ethnicity.

The Marwa case is also very disturbing, but at the same time we don't know much about the killer's background yet. I'm sure the media will follow the case.

Oh yes, Koch has always been courting the xenophobic fringe. He did so with his campaign against dual citizenship a couple of years ago as well. But a lot of conservative voters were fed up with him when he lost against Ypsilanti. They were fed up with his education policy, fed up with his airport policy and they were fed up with his attempt to gain votes with xenophobia as well. He tried to use the Munich subway case and additionally his campaign tried to use the obviously foreign names of Ypsilanti and al Wazir to lure the fringe voters. When he found out how much this had misfired he dropped this "issue" during the next campaign. A lot of people voted for him while holding their noses because they still preferred a competent as*hole to Ypsilanty.

BTW, the CSU weren't happy with his attempt to use the subway case either. Some Hessian pissing on their beloved low crime Free State? Not very popular with the CSU.

One of your better posts Obv. Respect.

Agreed. Same goes for RainyDays.

REAL SHAME ON GERMANY !!!!

Murder in a courtroom !! and the dirty guard shoots the husband !!

this won't happen in a poor third world country !!

waiting to see the judgment to this murderer .... he must get death penalty for this innocent soul !

@Sparkling

You can see that the prejudice doesn't only exist in Germany with all these people coming here complaining about the death about a muslim woman. I'm sure none of them would be here if it was an Australian atheist that was murdered. Sadly this kind of prejudice is common among all people. But are these the majority? I don't know and I don't think so. And I don't think that they are bad people - they just favor 'their own kind'. So yes, there are probably people who get more upset about the two foreigners killing the German man than the Nazi skumbag who killed the woman (and some of them probably only remember the Turk) but sadly this is a human trait. You defend the group you feel you belong to.

Additionally I want you to remember that Germany is still young. Look as the US for example. It took quite some time for the US to handle their integration problems. I think that these things need time and I think in one or two generations the situation in Germany will be different (better in terms of integration).

Unless of course some kind of 9/11, Madrid, or London type event happens in Germany... Then the Scheiße might really hit the Lüfter...

Germany doesn't have the imperial history of Britain or France, and so ultimately has a different relationship to its immigrants..(superficially, now, maybe not.. But in the aftermath of some huge, catastrophic event like that, who knows?...) There is less guilt involved(of course Germany and Germans are still harassed because of WWII, but that's a different story...) They are not former colonized subjects, or anything like that.. Rather, they were invited and allowed to stay.. All these asylum seekers from Africa and elsewhere are here out of sheer generosity too. IMO the US, England and France, and Germany are in three different boats with respect to race, and so have to be considered separately.

Thanks Sparkling.

I think you are referring to the post before yours, from a person who joined TT just to post about this event. I can see a lot of outraged people, yes. But I believe their comments are not comparable with the deep ingrained prejudices we are discussing about. The type of prejudices that make a police make a wrong decision, or encourage an average person to start the "yes, the Turks/Muslims, they can't integrate, they should go back" rhetoric even when the discussion is about underwear.

Turks and Muslims live in Germany. I don't believe the guys who sing up to TT today live here. So, improving the peaceful living situation is probably not a priority for them. But for us it is.I don't know if I belong to the Egyptian group but you are right I feel I belong to the dark skinned foreigner group.

Go ahead, spread more fear, be condescending. Next you'll probably start with your "our war is just, they are evil" talk. Let's go back to WWII, which wasn't long time ago. The discriminated objects then, the Jews, the gypsies, the gays, the intellectuals have been living here for centuries already. Some Jews weren't even aware of their Jewness any more. When does a person become native to the land they live in? You call yourself American, when did you become American? You also call yourself German, when did you become German? Who was generous to you? What happens if you fall in love with an Israeli one day and have half-Jewish children. Where do they belong?

Discrimination is not about the duration of time. Look at the Kurds in Turkey. They lived there longer than the Turks. Look at the Aborigines in Australia, they lived there longer than some of the Germans who immigrated there 10 yrs ago. Who was generous to them? Who is discriminated against?

Your post doesn't make a lot of sense. You seem to assume that there is some achievable ideal world where we'll all get along, and that power, competition and dominance have no place.. Had the Aborigines been more powerful, history would have been different. Would've should've could've.. There is a reason the book was called Utopia - because it means literally "no place".

It is completely utopian to think that some day we all - whether as races or individuals - will get along.. It's not in the nature of things.. Natural is to want to protect the group you identify with against others that threaten it.

Since WWII, we all basically assume that it was SSSOOO terrible what happened there, that - especially emerging out of the 60's..., we've adopted these liberal, utopian pipe-dreams, and have tried to sweep human nature under the carpet. But of course that human nature never goes away.

Never.

As for me, I'm in Germany because of the "culture", not despite it.

Do you mean Germany should move back to a policy that existed before WWII?

Which group do you think/feel you belong to these days?

Americans? who were in war just 60 yrs ago with the Germans.

Germans? which part? East, North, Bavaria?

European? who didn't get along among themselves even before WWII

White race?

Christian? when did your group adopt this religion? what were they before?

Groups change. Who is your group? Who is threatening your group? Are you sure???

Germany HAD colonies (think about Deutsch Südwest, now Namibia). Since you use to complain about black people who dare to own a bike and cell phone and riding on the streets of your hometown - may I remind you that the former East German regime INVITED Namibians to live and to study in the former DDR? Same goes for Vietnamese people (communist brothers). When you go to Namibia you will find many people who tell you they've lived for many years in Halle, Leipzig, Dresden etc.

It is correct that German politicians refuse to see Germany as an immigration country, but that's not the point here.

This case of murder was an Immigrant killing an Immigrant out of hate. I am truly sorry for the poor woman and her family, but you will find nutjobs everywhere - and that's what this Russian guy is.

What?

Some insane immigrant kills another immigrant and this is the fault of Germany?

Which blog BTW, did I miss a link or something. (as opposed to being a missing link).

bagatelle, yes, this was an immigrant v. immigrant attack.. And yet the discussion invariably turns to how guilty Germany should be because all of these immigrants here aren't integrated, how all Germans are racists.., etc..

As for groups, sure why not, I'll lay it on the table for public ridicule.. I identfiy with what is admittedly an abstract and fluid concept which, for lack of a better name, I suppose we can label "Western Culture".. I personally happen to be of white European decent, so there is a racial dimension to my interests as well. I am not religious - but would substitute "Western Culture" to fill that role for me that other people turn to religion for. It's where my ideals come from. I admire everything from ancient Greek art to Shakespeare, Beethoven, Goya, and beautiful northern European women... (I like blondes - sue me.. Spanish girls are nice too though - especially the blonde ones..) Whether in History, Cultural Studies, or whatever, there is a long history of identifying an Occident and an Orient.. As with all such labels, they are problematic and imperfect. Nothing, after all, is black and white.. But, there is a, shall we say, tendency..., or a rift between East and West. Modern Islam does not fit into the modern West. I identify with the West(despite it's occasional monumentally stupid phases of self-destruction - like the one initiated in the 60's, continuing up until now more or less..) The great intellectual, cultural, artistic, technological, etc etc.. achievements of the West are what I look up to.. When I go to some castle from 400 years ago and see just the way they furnished it, I am in awe. Same when attending a performance of Beethoven's 9th. Or seeing the great paintings in Rome or Florence. And the list goes on.. These instances show me mankind striving for and coming closest to perfection. I regret that that all probably sounds pretentious.. But I assure you - it is not.. If it were that would mean I care about what anybody thinks.

German by Blood? What sort of stupid comment is that?

Was he or wasn't he an immigrant?

Or are you saying that anyone with "German blood" will automatically be a Islamophobic xenophobist?

Time to take a good long look in the mirror if you want to see what prejudice looks like.

There is something missing between ...andThe REAL problem is that because Germany has a more homogenised behavioural pallet along with a greater pressure to conform, people here tend to relate to others to a greater degree than ?elsewhere? as members of groups rather than individuals.. Teutonic Ordnung, of course, teaches one to anticipate that things are where they should be and furthermore to expect them to be so. This could be interpreted as gullibility ? but it is a human condition. Does anyone, for example, when driving, check the intersecting road at every junction as they pass through a green light? Probably not! Or maybe just new drivers. Conditioning via practice teaches us that a green light means that it is safe to drive through the junction even though we know that this may not be the case. The important point here is that this is an unconscious decision and one that most people are not even aware that they are making.

So what's the problem with that you ask?

People are individuals.. A steadily increasing number of non German individuals already live in Germany whose education, talents, abilities and careers do not chime with those often expected of the stereotypical Ausländer. Those who live by the creed that Germans (and all/many things German) are superior are in for a rude awakening. But equally problematic is that to cede the point, and to stand alone as an Individual, rather than a representative of the nebulous concept of a Nation would no doubt result in a severe bout of dissonance as they will then have to re-asses their place in the world (and their ranking within it). But as they say in the real world, "Reality Bites"... Learn now... Or live in a fantasy world and learn later (the harder way)..

We all know, (as history and psychology has observed) people tend to postpone that which is uncomfortable. Most will wait until it is blindingly obvious that they have lost their cherished unearned privilege. That is when, as per the past, we enter the "Anger Phase" and in its immediate wake a "Lurch to the Right".. BUT ladies and gentlemen, for the good of social cohension and mataining the status quo, populations have been lied to. There is no such thing as a superior race. Just more enabled (in a context) INDIVIDUALS.

The 8 largest economies in 2050 (given current projections) doesn?t include a single majority Western European nation.

The current economic crisis will, if anything, hasten that process..

In other words, change is coming, and for many of the ex-middle class, it is already here..

There is no such ting as racism.. It is all about economics and the inherent competition that the current system forces us into.. If it wasnt "race".. it would be "education".. "attractiveness".. right/left handedness *.. "religion" or any one of a multitude of markers that are (or could be) used to decide those who should HAVE and those who should NOT. Our method of organisation is fundamentally flawed and ultimately WILL lead to rules to determine position.

--

As someone above stated, why cant we all get along..? The nationalists in Europe better hope that the (soon to be dominant) Asian Block choose not to ?ape? their behaviour.

--

How does one explain the few in all nations who do not succumb to the programming.. Some suggest evolution.. I think it is something to do with experience and Latent inhibition (Wikipedia)

--

Lots of topics there but I have to go back to work now..

Oh and yeah...

Tick tock!!

* Note: no quotes... and funnily enough the only one that we seem to have resolved..

Read this Jus sanguinis (Wikipedia) and you will get an idea of what they are taking about..

And the point being made was a relative one.. From the other point of view..

The general thrust being that in Germany the law supports (supported?) the concept of blood(/race) being the main factor in deciding Germanness so given that, it would be unfair for that same state to claim that the Aussiedler was not German and that his behaviour was not that of a "German".. More into here.. Jus sanguinis (Wikipedia)

These concepts are quite alien to the majority of those that live/lived under or were born into a Jus Soli system and it is probably this missing information that led to your misinterpretation of the comments..

Dont mean to carp.. but what does that mean? In real terms.. And (in anticipation of your reply) what is the justification for that arbitrary line of demarcation that you have established and what makes it anymore valid than others drawn in the present, past and maybe also in the future? How does a subjective concept become an immutable, (at least in your head) reality? Is it anything more than delusion?

Pray tell..

The general discussion in this thread oddly enough brings to mind No true Scotsman (Wikipedia)

This shifting of definitions is what allows "sane" individuals (in the West) to go from Al Q to universally quantified statements about Muslims while at the same time consigning the Fritzl's of this world to the less troublesome [but more accurate] existential category. In the case of the older members of society who acted in a less than civilised manner in "recent" distasteful episodes many seem, for all intents and puposes, to dispense with logic altogether..

Patronising twaddle. Wasn´t a man slain by an angry mob in his front garden in Northern Ireland only a couple of weeks ago - just because he happened to be Catholic? And we certainly all recall the warm welcome given to those Romany gypsies there as well. I guess the Irish are just too Teutonic and conformist?

Unfortunately all societies have some highly prejudiced and violent members. Asian countries aren´t immune to this, either.

"Immigrants" are not a single homogenous group..

Is this individual Anshu Jain (Wikipedia) in need or needed?

What about the rest of this list.. http://www.db.com/ir/en/content/management_board.htm? Are the non Germans immigrants..?

And what would that relationship be..? Are you just referring to the poor immigrants? The ones from the third world? The ones who are not educated? Not gainfully employed? Not in senior positions?

And how can you tell which is which when you encounter them?

Methinks it is the group thinking again which is the root cause here...

It is this level of reasoning that seeks to lump Anshu Jain the head of Investment Banking and de-facto 2nd in command at the bank with the ills associated with the case of the average asylum seeker.. Valid no doubt, in some corners of this world but hopefully not yours..

Whatever all that is supposed to tell us: Anshu_Jain is working in London.

Meaning..?? That's Germans are not conformist...??

Cart before horse AND a non-sequitur.. Please try to respond again but please try to avoid rhetorical tricks this time.. In so-called "Klar Text" if you respond at all please try to respect that age old tradition of contesting (or agreeing) with something I actually said.

I know the post was a tad long but I didnt actually focus on the incident at all.. I was talking about Germany at large and as chance would have it, you..

Its all about perspective.. That one incident in isolation is hard to analyse at this distance. As all the facts are not known to the general public at large the gaps would no doubt be bridged at best by speculation or more likely bias. The larger picture is the one that needs to be analysed and that is the one that my comments were centered on..

Anyone who would seek to divine the exact events in court from that article is an idiot.. Irrespective of the position they adopt on the matter..

1.

"Us" who? HINT: "quote button" (EDIT: it's that group thinking again.. I geddit )

2.

In London?? As are all of the board..? Also working or resident?

As Global Head of Capital Markets he would spend a fair bit of time on all continents.. And amazingly a fair bit in the German office.. And of course, one can tell as he bestrides the streets of Frankfurt that he is just visiting rather than a permanent resident.

"I know a man" who worked at DB not too long ago..

3.

And as for what that is telling you.. Are you familar with the term foreshadowing?? As in the movies... it will become clearer later

Sophistry sphmophistry...

So are you agreeing with the poster above then when he implies that because this person could legally claim German heritage that proves Germans are inherently racist?

You don't come across as a mindless imbecile so I doubt it.

His behaviour was not that of a "German" but the behaviour of someone suffering from a mental illness.

Every human does this. Most start with their family but don't stop there. The so called Teutonic Ordnung ist not as widespread as you think. That much is true.Who does that apart from our Neonazis?Seems like you hope this will happen.You said it yourself: People are individuals.

Who would that be? Seems like you are the one who favors such views (blood determines the nationality).

"The new hate", this is an article from Zeit, which I consider respectable media.

The link is sent to me by a German friend who initially didn't believe such a crime could occur when I told him the story. He follows the news well, but as of Sunday he had not heard about this case. He also told me, most possibly the Russian and the Eyptian were in a relationship and that's why he possibly killed her Anyways, finally he believes that a hate crime can occur in Germany. Not recognizing the problem is sometimes the biggest problem.

http://www.zeit.de/online/2009/28/der-neue-hass

I just wonder what would happened that someone killed lesbian in German Court. What would public and media do!!!!

From my point of view this case is sad but normal for the german system. I remember getting beaten very brutal by my ex-turkish boyfriend as i dragged myself to the german police office looking beat up in my face, to put a police report on him. They said to me, sorry but before you started dating your boyfriend you knew he was turkish and should of known the trouble they can cause, so we can't do anything before he does not stab you with a knife. Shocked i went on with my life and moved out of germany because of daily fear and out of protection for me and my son.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/0...ab-murder-egypt

"Outrage at lack of media coverage fuels protests"

Should we also send angry mobs to our streets to attack Egypt when there is some slaughter of Western tourists in Egypt again?

There was plenty of news coverage for that event - certainly at least as much as a German victim would have received.

AFAIK, every country observes some form of jus sanguinis, and the vast majority don't observe jus solis, i.e., they have "unequal" practices. Why single out Germany, which actually has somewhat of a hybrid system? At any rate, you continue to ignore the fact that German citizenship is conferred at birth to anyone who has at least one parent who has resided in Germany for at least eight years, which includes pretty much any long term resident.

To give you an extreme (but not unheard of scenario in some places) ask yourself if it makes any sense to award German citizenship at birth to a person born in Germany to parents who are in the country illegally.

As for the murderer in the Dresden courtroom, he apparently only came from Russia in 2003. The point Oblomov may have been trying to make is that by growing up in Russia rather than Germany, he had been socialized to Russian ways at looking at things rather than German ways.

Haven't you been reading the thread? According to the oppressed posters (most of which joined very recently) it has everything to do with the fact that this guy has "german blood" and is therefore by definition a rascist violent thug.

His upbringing in Russia and his apparent mental problems has no bearing on the subject because being tainted by German blood makes you a Nazi.

Easy if you don't bother using a braincell to think about it

God I hate the Guardian..

I used to read it regularly cuz it was available in a local cafe.. But I quit cuz it kept getting my blood pressure up... Which it just did again..

Come on, this is just another excuse for Muslims the world over to be "outraged" at "anti-Muslim violence"; while completely ignoring their own violence towards Christians and Jews, and any sect of Islam that they don't belong to.

I watch with interest the goings on in western China, where the Chinese govt. has decreed that no mosques will be open for prayer today. It should be an exciting weekend in Xinjiang.

Yes you should go to the streets and protest, if the Egyptian politicians constantly feed animosity against the Germans and the Germans there constantly feel discriminated (in a disadvantaged way, not 'getting extra advantages because they are Germans') and are worried that the regular prejudices are escalating to the levels of physical attacks.

What about the Germans who feel threatened by Muslims and feel that regular prejudices against infidels maybe escalating to the levels of terrorist attacks? Should we fuel that kind of thought?

what are you suggesting? that the foreigners in Germany (the dark skinned ones) take this crime as an everyday occurance, and not be worried at all?

also why shouldn't you be worried if the prejudices against the-so-called-infidels are escalating? We should always be worried about prejudices and they can escalate to the levels of physical attacks very easily. I live in Germany now, I face discrimination from a portion of the German population. If I lived in Egypt, I would face discrimination from a portion of the Egyptian population, because I am not religious, I would also be an infidel in the eyes of such groups. It is my right to worry and voice my worry if the prejudices start escalating.

I agree with your remark. It really doesn't matter whether the guy has German blood in his veins or not. He was raised somewhere else, and got the values of another country/community.

I think die Zeit put it very correctly, that the integration is not working. When we discuss integration, it's always the "problem" of integration of Turks or other dark skinned people to the German society. The definition is very narrow. Obviously this Russian guy, who has passed the citizenship test somehow, has not integrated to the German society either. Maybe the citizenship tests should include questions that would detect the racists.

That this guy was or was not a racist is a non-issue.. That he was dumb enough and couldn't control his violent murderous urges is the issue.. He's a murderer. THAT is the problem. As far as I'm concerned these were two random foreigners (if I'd been involved I'd say the same thing..) and it's ridiculous that Germany and the Germans are getting somehow blamed for it...

More people are probably murdered over jealousy every day than over racism.. It's a tragedy that this woman was murdered, but all this blowing it up into something bigger and waving the "racist" finger around is just bullshit PC rabble-rousing..

Let's not forget the police shooting the dark guy instead of the white guy. I give the benefit of the doubt, that it could be something else. But so many unknowns, so much hush hush. That's probably what is the triggering the street protests in Egypt.

The killing happened in a matter of minutes, it may not be racially driven, it may be a moment of insanity. But his initial behavior, calling her a "terrorist", "slut", etc. this was racism and he received punishment for it. Not racism by the whole German society, but by this single guy. If you are to defend his behavior, I will have to call you a racist as well.

If one politician had come out and said that racist behaviors such as Axel's are not accepted in Germany, it could calm down the anger. The anger is escalating, because the stance from the Government is as if supporting such behavior.

If you don't make a plan, you are going with the de facto plan. Still no word from the politicians after one week. Where is Koch???

To take a more extreme example, I think every Danish politician during the "cartoon drama" should have all gotten together and given a united middle finger to the entire Islamic world... They had nothing to do with it, yet PC-ness expects them to cave in and kiss ass - which they did.. It's revolting..

It's ridiculous for Germany.. Because of their now practically ancient past, anything to do with the issue of race brings all kinds of condemnations, etc.. These were two freakin' foreigners!.. OK, the cop shooting the husband could be iffy.. But again, who knows.. Was probably chaotic and yeah somebody just rushed and made a mistake... I don't think it's fair to say that the cop, who could've been some 18 year old rookie for all we know, shot out of institutionalized racism...

I would suggest that fear mongering is rarely a beneficial behaviour. There is a lot of fear mongering by our government, as well (possible terrorist attacks, bla bla). This only helps to strenghten the 'us vs. them' mentality.

I can't believe that this post has gone un-noticed - I genuinely find this impossible to believe and terrifying if true. Where exactly did this occur?

I agree 100%. I just demand balance and fair treatment. If the politicians will also shut up when an Egyptian youth kills a German woman out of hatred for Christianity, then at least we can claim balance. It wouldn't be right, but fair.

These all coming from a person who doesn't believe in religions... I'm just trying to make my point, and have to give all these examples.

The question is: Do you have proof that prejudices against foreigners in Germany are more prevalent in 2009 than they were in 2001 or is this your personal observation?

And if we banned all non Christian symbols and textbooks here just like they do in Saudi Arabia you mean? Yes I can really imagine our Muslim friends taking that one well.

I think I wrote this somewhere on this thread before. It is only my personal experiences. And I trust my personal experiences more than the media.

One thing I must make clear though. In 2001, my first year in Germany, I could barely speak German. I spoke English with all my colleagues, who were an international bunch. Now the same company has very few foreign employees, many left or asked to leave. Meanwhile I learned German and started reading the news and reaching more people than before, especially Germans. I notice the different levels of prejudices more often and am sometimes terrified. Could it be that 8 years ago it was the same, and I didn't notice anything, because I was in my little world working until midnight on most days? Yes. Would it make the current experiences OK? No.

Parnell, I live in Germany and am interested in increasing living standards in Germany, for all. I'm not a Christian/Muslim who is chasing after all the unfairness in the world to my fellow religious men. We are obviously driven differently.

BTW, the German government did strongly condemn the crime, and Chancellor Merkel met Egypt's President Mubarak at the summit in L'Aquila to express her condolences, according to Spiegel.

If the event we are discussing wasn't so sad, I would laugh sarcastically at the fact that a spokesman of the Iranian foreign minister stated that such a crime in a courtroom in the presence of police showed the evergrowing hatred against immigrants and religious minorities in Germany. Iranian state TV also showed a 3 hour documentary about the case. Hey, it's a great opportunity to divert emotions from some recent domestic issues.

If this is all your personal experience, then, I'm sorry to say, it classifies as minor fear mongering. I've told you about bad experiences in my youth with Turks. If I had been asked about Turks back then I wouldn't have given a very positive view. That doesn't mean that my experiences mean nothing, it just means that they can cause a bad development in society if too much is made out of them.

I rather thought you had posted that one should take to the streets in Germany should religious inequality take place in Egypt.

I am a foreigner muslim woman living in Germany.I would refute the above statements saying that germans are racists. I havent encountered any German who showed antagonism towards my muslim way of dressing or living. I see many muslim women freely shopping and wandering in the streets without being the target of any violence from the local germans. There can be some germans who would disapprove muslims but they don't represent the entire germans. Infact I have found germans very nice.

This story is totally shocking.

A man in court stabs a women 18 times before the police arrive, when police do arrive they shoot the husband.

I am actualy surprised it has not been posted here already or maybe it has (then appologies for posting it

twice).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/0...ab-murder-egypt

[color=gray]Topics merged by admin

Thank you, after all, we only have two threads about this crime here already.

There've been cases (I hope they are isolated) where the German judicial system has favourably treated violent partners/husbands because of their culture/beliefs.

He beat her and threatened her with murder. But because husband and wife were both from Morocco, a German divorce court judge saw no cause for alarm. It's a religion thing, she argued.I think the judge was later removed from the case, but if a judge can argue that point of view I'm not surprised that a policeman would.

Another case

It is by no means unusual for people put on trial for honor killings in Germany to be convicted on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the end. In 2003 the Frankfurt District Court handed down a mild sentence against a Turkish-born man who had stabbed his German-born wife to death. She had disobeyed him and was even insolent enough to demand a divorce.

First of all, IMHO, sentences for all violent crimes seem light to begin with in Germany. Second, the judge in Moroccan couple's divorce case seems to have been afraid of the husband. For it to be a systemic problem, you have to show things like that are always occuring rather than citing a couple of incidents/cases. No one can reasonably claim, for example, that there are no members of the police force and the judiciary who aren't at least a little bit racist, but the claims of systemic problems are serious ones which have a high burden of proof that hasn't come anywhere near close to being met by what has been posted on this thread.

Finally, I suspect that if the conviction is for manslaughter, it's because there was some element(s) of the case that made it either too difficult or impossible for a charge of first-degree murder to be sustained.

this 'veil case' has really pulled the curtain up from the self claimed anti-extremist and terrorism Europe.. and showed us that how racist, extremist and terrorizing they could be.

May GOD give u ppl strenght now to understand that terrorism and extremism is not only limited to a particular grup of ppl it can b found every where.

I didn't realise that one needed strength to understand that, nor did I realise that such strength need come from "GOD".

Furthermore, you're talking about one attack by one person upon one person. It was an incident of murder, not of terrorism. A hate crime, I'll grant, but to my knowledge there was no political aim in the murder. Don't try to label it as terrorism to suit your own purposes.

What "GOD"?? The "god" who was looking after this woman? Keep your "god" to yourself..

This also had nothing to do with terrorism, because, unlike most terrorism in the world today, it was not committed in the name of religion(or any other organized group..)

This has nothing to do with Germany. It just happened here - by coincidence. Sad that she was killed, and the killer should obviously be punished - like any other criminal(as he was in the process of in the first place..) But please. STOP blaming Germany. It's ridiculous.

Guys guys..... Just consider one thing that she was human after all and all human are equal, so there should be no discrimination of people over any particular religion.

The point here is that any criminal offense leaded by any specific group of people or a single person must be treated and bring into limelight in same manner without any prejudice or hatred.

About Germany a remember one incident in 2004 where media coverage was so prevailing about the murderer Armin Meiwes where he killed and eat his victim's flesh with his consent. And according to Armin Meiwes there are 800 cannibals in Germany. This is just an incident where Armin Meiwes had ferreted out the occult paradigm of wildness. How about those people who would have the hatred against the specific group of people & theory…

A civilized country but ignorant to treat & react normal against the specific group….. just think optimistically

Once again I have no idea what Ayub is trying to point out other than to have a dig and what they seem to think is 'the west'.

Here we all are saying the guy should be sent away for a long time and all Ayub keeps peddling is a dislike of Europe. Strange that...

Good to know that judges in Germany are very tolerant of Allah...

Muslims never do anything to Christians, Christians are always the ones who hate and kill Muslims, 9/11 was the only time , and they were only two guys that were just crazy like any other psychos.

Congratulations, you've won the daily stupid and ignorant award. Go back and do some research and you'll find that there are muslim fanatics just as there are christian fanatics and damn near any other kind of fanatics. Personally I lump them all into the religitard category, regardless of which bastardized religion they pretend to adhere to. Fanatics do fanatical things, regardless of religion. Religion is merely an excuse.

It is pretty scary to think that people like zxc123 are actually allowed to be out and about on their own.

Ignorance is one thing but down right stupidity needs to be culled.

I'm merely curious about why media is not fetching this hideous incident into limelight, why media is shilly-shally to condemn this act of brutality. One important thing to notice is the daring and courageous attribute of Alex W where he didn't care for the repercussions, coz he knew that government won't harm him. It's not about the religious differences its all about the insanity of people who living in liberal countries where they don't abide laws. This is a slap on the policy makers who dragged country towards so-called liberalization; it's merely an incident where Muslims think that it was ruthless against their hypothesis while second party called this a misconduct. The question here is that what if when other people despite their religion would confront such brutality where no such strict punishment is available, coz criminal will always think that a murder cannot cost his own life at least. Think about it, it's not for any specific religion it's for all humanity ….

Since the topic of bias (real or imho supposed) of the German media has come up a couple of times in the thread: a German tourist (Gregor Kerkeling) was stabbed to death yesterday in Istambul, and help arrived after 30 minutes, even if there was an hospital nearby.

If it's true that the German media is biased, then this case will likely be blown out of proportion. Let's see

spiegel.de reports that Gregor K. was on the run from the law in Germany. He broke out of a prison in Muenster last year.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,637431,00.html (in german)

Interesting, thanks for the link.

The Italian newspaper that I read the news on this morning gave him as a tourist (article in Italian, but I think google would do a decent job of translating)

If the conspiraloons on this thread are right then standby for a blizzard of media reporting how this poor innocent white German was savagely slaughtered by the swarthy skinned heathens.

Or maybe not.

Interesting case overall

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/world/europe/26briefs-germanystabbing.html?ref=world

"Prosecutors on Tuesday filed murder charges against a man who fatally stabbed a pregnant Egyptian woman in a German court"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,660240,00.html

People are surprised that he might have a mental problem?

He stabbed a woman to death in front of witnessess, in a courtroom, while on trial. Anyone who thinks this bloke is normal is almost as crazy.

Alex W. received the maximum penalty for murder under German law today.

Since Germany has no death penalty, the highest penalty is life in jail, although life prisoners here usually get paroled after 15 years. What was the final punishment term? Was the parole delayed?

"Lebenslange Freiheitsstrafe" + "besondere Schwere der Schuld", so no parole after 15 years. Probably about 25 years.

No surprise at all. Nobody wanted the next cartoon controversy with riots in the streets burning German flags in Indonesia and wherever else...

SPIEGEL :

Maximum Sentence for Racist Murderer