Study finds an extra million Muslims living in Germany

I think the important thing here is that most Muslims are secularised and increasingly integrated. Good news for Germany, but more needs to be done - especially relaxing the rules on dual citizenship.

It's only 5% now, but given the growth rate Germany will be a predominately Muslim state by the year 2050.

Yer first mistake there Bob is assuming a static model. The growth rate will slow or even reverse. Secondly, it doesn't really matter. As people become more affluent they become more secular, so they'll all start worshiping the all-mighty euro like the rest of us. And, anyway, I'm sure the pagans are still trying to figure out how they lost out to all these Xtians.

True, there are also studies that show that immigrant birth rate adapts to the home country in few generaions. And it actually does, when you open your eyes. The young morrocan family living next to me has 1 child and is not planning more. 2 child families are the norm even with muslims.

The anatolic 10 kid family is getting raaaare.

EB, i think judaism is the fastest growing religion in Germany, induced to Russian jewish immigrants. And the German birth rate also climbed recently. No need for this tinfoil fearmongering.

It's all good family fun. My Dad is still convinced that Muslim is now the largest religion in the UK despite having no facts to back it up.

There's also an assumption that all those Muslims don't become atheists by 2050. We can but hope...

That certainly isn't the case in the world's wealthiest nations in the middle east.

According to Destatis figures, Germany has recently been running a net migration loss with Turkey, i.e. more people are moving to Turkey than the other way round.

But they're not immigrants that came for economic reasons a few decades back. The muslims that really make money in Germany are moderate. Mostly hard working Turkish family businesses. Add the fact that Turkey itself is secular. No reason to assume the "Gottesstaat Deutschland".

Let's see what we would need to assume to reach 50 % muslims by 2050:

- Let's assume that the population declines to 70 m (i.e. by 12 m from current 82 m)

- So we would need 35 m muslims out of those 70 m

- Right now, we apparently have 4 m

=> Where do those 31 m additional muslims come from in the space of only 40 years?

They need to adjust just like any other foreigner and stop insisting on their religion being the one and only. Otherwise I would say, throw them all out.

But Germany would never do that, because they have to be so tolerant. How I hate that word by now, that is why I don't live there anymore. They are so tolerant to Muslims, but dare to be another religion than they hunt you down. Yuck. I'll stay where I am. And that is not Germany.

Muslim couples have 8 and a half kids, I learnt it here:

Muslim Demographics

Yeah, Christians. Oh you meant the one of the other Abrahamic religions didn't you? Sorry my mistake

The other religion being...?

But , but , I live in a catholic region and they have zillions of babies because every sperm is sacred.

I fear that even in staunchly Catholic regions, a lot of sperm are being sacreligiously wasted in tissuepaper.

You know that most muslims are living here since the sixties and seventies?

And that the biggest immigrant religion, as i already mentioned, is judaism?

The video ends by saying "This is a call to action". Presumably, they want Christians to go forth and multiply. Surely, 10 kids per Christian family are doable...

(It would possibly help them to convince viewers if it wasn't immediately obvious that half their "facts" are untrue...)

Ed Bob who art on Toytown

snappy and short thy name

thy users come

thy will be done

in cyberspace on Toytown

Give us this day our daily hate-thread

And forgive us our lack of nettiquette

as we never forgive those

who differ from us

And lead us from these futile discussions

but register the hits first

For thine is this cyber kingdom,

and the power, and the money,

for ever and ever.

Amen.

That's right. The last time the Americans allowed unfettered immigration the immigrants had the audacity to kill all the indigenous peoples. Never forget.

You're not Gatzke are you?

What a shame, Europe is being destroyed from within by Muslim immigration. Unemployment is rising, immigration is not needed, especially immigrants that move to europe don't even speak the native language and just go for the social benefits. No wonder they don't want to give up their dual-citizenship. Germany is just another land of infidels whos hands are tied with amnesty and "human rights" while people rob the house and squat. Who's benefiting... it is not the Germans.

Well, priests aren't supposed to have kids, anyway.

That was the best post evah, Old Fighter! Why, oh why, did we ever allow non-Caucasians into the United States in the first place?

Somehow reminded of this song.

I say let them come. Fine with me. I don't have any prejudices.

Society is always changing - nothing is static and forever. That is the way it always has been in history and is always going to be in the future.

We had the Hun coming a long time ago. Nothing new.

Without a strong national identity and appreciation for ones own culturem, Islam will destroy German and European culture the same way it destroyed Hellenistic, Persian, Egyptian etc.

Europe has a value system based on years of refining, Islam will bring you back to the dark ages.

Ban Muslim immigration.

Muslims eat their babies (and dogs), that's a fact.

Well it's nice to see that most people aren't getting swept up with the prevailing attitudes of the time and still proving that they're able to think for themselves. Then there are people like jamesvik who are convinced that the sky's about to fall on their heads at any moment.

As someone said in a previoius post, it doesn't matter what particular sect you're aligned with, as long as you have enough cash to buy a big TV then pretty much any belief system that propped you up in your previous life in which ever toilet of a country you came from will become increasingly irrelevant.

and the reality is, the Turks who immigrate here end up working for the Germans for all their lives for peanuts. Whereas the Germans who move to Turkey end up employing the Turks for all their lives for peanuts. It's not a fair balance. And, the Germans keep screaming...

If you look at the world map for a few minutes, assuming that you are a tiny bit knowledgeable about the world you live in, you should notice that the Europeans in fact conquered the most land and destroyed most of the world culture. North America, South America, many parts of Africa, Australia... whereas the Asians pretty much stayed in the same geography, that's why it's quite crowded over there, they can't spread their genes like Europeans do.

Europeans can go to Asia and most of the Muslim countries without even a passport, but an Asian or Muslim can't come to Europe without a visa which, if they can obtain it at all, costs a lot of time and money.

And the Germans are still complaining and talking about their "refined" value system, which let us witness the best designed killing mechanisms ever, which still let us experience racism on a daily basis.

What a shame Jamesvik, you signed up with TT just to comment on this topic. I guess you have nothing else to share with this community except for your hatred towards people who are not like you.

I'm not religious, but I just can't stand Germans using religion (or red hair if they have to) to discriminate. They just need an excuse, and they will argue fiercely why discrimination is fair based on this excuse.

You should instead learn to appreciate diversity. It is making humans out of you.

Actually, very few "Germans" (as in: Germans without ethnic Turkish roots) are moving to Turkey.

The people moving there are mostly ethnic Turks returning "home".

Judging by most of the comments here I see no hope for Europe.

Really? Which countries are you talking about specifically?

tom_a, u-tube muslim demographics, it provides a good summary.

Politicall correctness, Guardian-esque liberalism, etc.., all one big offshoot of the 60's, have been seriously bad for Europe. Allowing millions of Muslims to come here, mooch off the system while not assimilating*, etc.. And who's to blame because they don't assimilate?? The French, the Germans, etc etc...

It's all a big mess.

* No, of course that doesn't describe all Muslims. But surely a disproportionate number of them. And I mean, if they don't want to assimilate, then they just shouldn't be here. They should go to the US, which is more of a melting pot. Bombs in Madrid and London, senseless and violent riots in France, the murder of Van Gogh - symbolically a perfect example of the disaster of European Muslim immigration. Just imagine if some Saudi had made films critical of the West - IN SAUDI ARABIA - and some local expat there tracked the film-maker down and practically cut his head off in the middle of the street in his home town.. All of this makes a big tide which Guardian-minded left-wingers in Europe keep having to rationalize. Like more and more leaks in a huge dam.. This multi-culti pipe-dream is just a big mess..

Assimilation is a two way street. People coming in have to feel welcome.

Really you think it's a disaster. Look at everything foreigners have brought to the culture as well. The food, different ways of thinking , music etc etc etc.

Meanwhile millions of 'dole scrougers' sit doing nothing because the foreigner with the better work ethic is doing a job they could.

I agree and know all too well that there are millions of lazy unemployed Germans mooching off the system as well... BUT IT'S THEIR SYSTEM!! That's a different problem altogether...

And come on.., "foreigners with a better work ethic" might apply to the Chinese, but to the Morrocans, Turks, Africans, etc...??? To many yes, but far from all... And I mean, even if they are mooching off the system, it would be one thing if they were here because they're ardent Wagnerians, or love medieval castles or FKK or something, but well... Yeah, ha ha...

Everyone, please watch on u-tube MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHICS, includes comments by German government.

So Mr demographic expert. Why are the 'Gästearbeiter' here?

Pas, I assume you're referring to me. (DISCLOSURE I don't live in Germany anymore and am not German). I didn't claim to be anything; just referred a video. Please watch and if you find incorrect information, please post.

That's no longer the relevant question, is it? Why are their grandkids here, and still not assimilated?... - would be more to the point, no?? Or, why did they stay after their work was done?

You say they don't work hard and yet were invited into the country to work. Can you see the logical hole in your argument? Or did the west need a whole load of lazy people?

Pas, why are WE, G?arbeiter, here.

You're an immigrant as much as I am. You are all immigrants, whether you like the word or not.

Yes, we've covered that already. Unfortunately, lots of stuff in that particular video is factually wrong.

Very true indeed. However it seems in the heads of some people that the colour of ones skin tends to indicate how well you'll work.

Any actual Europeans here? If so, utube Muslims Demographics. The opinions of non-Europeans are not relevant.

Maybe later when at home. Though what is an 'actual european'? Please define what a European is and why it's important.

tom_a, what is "factually wrong" in the video? Or is it that you just don't like its message?

Please quote where the German government actually said what the video claims it said.

Also, please provide proof that 25 % of Belgium's population and half of its newborn are Muslim. According to Wikipedia, only 6 % are muslim.

And please provide proof that the average Muslim family in Europe has >8 kids.

Just to pick a few examples...

Actually, the video was apparently made by Americans, and primarily intended for an American audience.

Btw, what is your nationality?

Through cricket I know many many Muslims and I know not one family with 8 or more kids. So there are a lot with over 8 hiding away somewhere.

I never said anything about skin color. Don't be so simplistic.

The Chinese are not white, but you can see regularly Chinese people in the city, behaving, working hard, being pretty much upstanding citizens. As far as I'm concerned they fit just fine. Kind of like how you can see pretty much every day Turkish or Moroccan youth harassing or at least staring kind of sickeningly or making lewd gestures at young girls, spitting on the sidewalk, etc.. Yes there are good people from Turkey and Morocco as well - of course, but I'm not making this up. It's all just based on what I see, hear, read, watch, etc.. I had no bias before making these observations. Most of them were formed before 9/11 as a matter of fact.. They're just the observations I've made. And extrapolate that out to discussions and articles and reports of huge mosques being built in Berlin or Cologne, stories of third generation Turks who don't speak German, etc. etc.., and well as far as I'm concerned you're got a big multi-culti mess here in Germany. Not as bad as France or England, but going that way...

Not only that, but here in East Germany where many places have %20 + unemployment, and you just have to ask, why in the h.ell are these people here?? That %20 btw is not just down to laziness either. Times are hard for lots of people in the east - and have been for years. So when I see some African riding a bicycle talking on a cell phone down the street of some small no-name dorf in the middle of nowhere, it just doesn't make sense...(and of course, at least where my girlfriend grew up, it was Africans and turks selling drugs in the discos, asking for blowjobs, that kind of thing... This is not some racist tyrade, but just things that happen.) Why is Germany(including me I guess, being a tax-payer...) paying for this guy's rent, his cell phone, and his bicycle?

And I suppose I should also preempt some joke about why I'm here. I came here because I wanted to, was interested in the "culture"(hate that word, but...), ended up choosing to stay, marrying, etc.. Even accepting all the bad stuff - weather, coffee, beauracracy, etc.. But anyway, not about me.. I don't and never will get a cent from the state either.

In Leipzig?

Or Senftenberg, or Weißenfells, or Chemnitz, or Jena, or Magdeburg, or Cottbus, or Frankfurt Oder, or Kuhdorf woauchimmer...

Or Munich..

Go to England and it's the white kids doing that. Where should they be sent?

A lot of them appear to be sent to Munich and encouraged to post on Toytown.

Same trend is happening in Germany. Asi teenagers burning garbage cans, cars in Berlin, etc..

I've - no joke - met over the years at least three Brits who'd left England who said exactly the same thing - "burn it down and start over"...

Maybe an element of that there??.. ha ha...

Or maybe they're just radical left-wingers...

I asked because I thought that East Germany had far fewer Turkish and Middle Eastern immigrants than the West.

So maybe, just maybe , the problem is to do with youths and not muslims? Let's get our out groups right before burning them or we'll never solve the problem.

Dogs are not halal.

One thing that does not help is that the kids do not get automatic German citizenship. Just imagine you were born here but you are not German, you get the chance to become German when you are 16 years old, but by then you already grew up hating the Germans and you would stick to your "own" nationality which you do not identity yourself with either.

Anonomous Internet Coward Nr 5 888 099 338(same goes to Jamesvik), could you please give us some more details about yourself? Or post under your real username? What freaks me out is people who don't have the balls to say what they really think under their real username or who sign up just to spread hatred and not disclose a thing about themselves.

If you want anybody to reply anything to your unbelievably unsubstantiated posts, stop being a coward and either post under your real username or give us information about yourself. It is damn scary when people use Youtube as a source of information. My goodness, what is the average IQ in this country?

And babies?

Which country?

Wow, that's great. Chinese people are ok, Africans aren't. And still hardworking Chinese, Indian and Vietnamese people regularly get attacked in Germany, disproportionally more often in the former Eastern parts.Funny that you say that, a few weeks ago a person from East Germany got attacked with a swan by some local Bavarians. His crime was being East German.…[/quote]Sweet Jesus, this is pretty hard. It seems that nothing the Africans are doing is right in your eyes. I have encountered this attitude so often during the 18 or more years that I have been living in Germany. When foreigners have more than Germans, have a higher education than Germans, are more successful than Germans, Germans hate and envy them for having more than them. That's why the Jews all got gassed. When foreigners have less than them, they are economic refugees in their eyes and are also hated for that. If that African riding his bike worked for it, possibly doing some crap job that you consider yourself too good for, it's his damn bike and if he cares to ride it it is none of your business. Do you know how many Germans I have met, especially while living in Berlin, who directly told me they refuse to work or take up low-paying jobs because their welfare money is more or the same? My taxes also get used to sponsor these people. Do I complain? No. It amuses me to read the comments of all the Jammerlappen. Unfortunately it also scares me.

MB, the poster you are attacking is not German.

I don't care if he is German or not.

I'll edit my post to Germans then to avoid misunderstanding.

What gets me is all these Christians going around acting like they own the place, if they like this Jesus guy so much why don't they go and live in the holy land.

Oh and Tom_a, I just checked said poster's profile. He is German and American it seems.

The problem is that people are joining The Local to have a rant about the stories rather than joining TT per se. This means that you go in through this interface http://www.thelocal.de/discuss/There are no hints to read the FAQs, or get used to the board culture. So it attracts the type of comments you get on news features all over the world.

There are no Africans in the East to "take away German jobs". Or Turks. Or other "foreigners". Thuringia e.g. has a foreigner quota of something like 2%.

The SPON article does state precisely that with regard to Muslims in Germany. People go where the jobs are. And they definitely aren't in the East.

And? Person is still a coward. Doesn't change anything about that. It has now simply become even easier to be an anonomous internet coward.

I wasn't defending them, just pointing out why there may be an increase in Daily Mail hang em all posts. I mean they are obviously well informed. They can form an opinion on England by the opinion of three people. I'd also like Jamesvik to explain how Islam destroyed Hellenistic, Persian and Egyptian culture

Yeah, that's the irony of it. There are hardly any foreigners living in East Germany and still they are to be blamed for the 20% joblessness. Scary, this big void of cerebral mass. So if a person who obviously looks different walks down the streets carrying anything of value, that person immediately becomes a target. Hey, this sounds a bit like South Africa! Except there it doesn't matter to us if you look different, we'll rob you if you were our president. We won't say anything racistical to you though.

The Zulu don't look down on the Xhosa and vice versa?

Are you mad? Of course not! Our president is Zulu and the ANC a predominantly Xhosa party. The Xhosa people love him. See, in South Africa the lion and the lamb can graze together.

(attached image)

Anyway, I have to go earn some more tax money now to pump into the German welfare system. Have fun.

Racist anti-White policies of the South African ANC govt.

e.g. Turkey

Many Western Europeans require passports to travel to Turkey. Some even need to buy entry visas on arrival (e.g. Austrians and Italians, AFAIK).

exactly as you say, what you read, watch, etc. the media manipulates the society very well. as one other poster mentioned, there is a youth problem in Germany, be it white western German youth, white eastern German youth, Turkish youth, Moroccan youth, etc. As long as the unemployment continues increasing for the young males, the youth problems will increase.

I am Turkish, was invited to work here 8 years ago along with many other Turks, so I guess not all the Germans believe the Turks to be lazy workers. The mess is not a multi-culti mess, it's a racism mess. You can't get rid of the mess by getting rid of the Turks or Moroccans. What do you plan to do with the children of the inter-racial marriages? Do you think the average German is kind to the dark skinned people if one of the parents were German, and if they spoke fluent German. Get real please.

i think they are flying the wrong airlines. just go to Antalya airport and line up at the passport control. I as a Turkish person have to provide a passport, but a German can just show an ID and that's enough.

Germans yes. Most other Europeans no. Some years ago, I had to wait several hours for my Italian travel companion who had to stand in line to buy a visa at Istanbul airport.

There are German and English villages in Turkey, it's one of the favorite retirement spots. I assume you have never been to Turkey before. Of course, they remain angemeldet here to continue collecting benefits, but they spend their lives in Turkish Riviera. Nobody asks them for a work permit.

You don't get it do you? I don't know what your view of an ideal society is, but from the sound of it, you'd just be happy to live anywhere without people of a slightly different skin tone to your own. I am very happy that there are non Germans living here, otherwise this country would be completely bland and without any redeemable futures other than cheap beer and sausages. Why should foreigners become 'assimilated'? Ok, they should accept the customs and cultural sensitivities of the indigenous people, but why should they be exactly like the Germans?

I have been to Turkey several times. Why would you assume that I haven't been there?

Anyway, whoever is "angemeldet" in Germany is not counted among "people moving to Turkey". I am talking about the official statistics.

Its strange these people never complain about the lack of assimilation of the English in Spain. There was a programme here last night about a settlement there where people were proud of the fact that they could only say beer or wine in Spanish. These were people who had lived there for decades. You don't get these critics of lack of integration going down to the Costa Del Sol to protest to get them sent back to England

God, when I was there last week all I saw were bloody russians.

Legally, it has to be a passport or official ID card (Personalausweis) from any EC member country to enter from a EC member country, not just any ID. The Turkish Nüfus Cüzdani iirc is not accepted for the same purpose because it has no expiration date.

Because German society works rather well , crime rates are low , people are productive and honest.

I've had conversations with folks here who've told me that they wouldn't go back home because the place is ridden with crime...you fear for your kids... there are the odd bad apple German and certainly lots of pushy old ladies on trams but that's as bad as it gets ... compare that to...anywhere else ... and u understand.

According to this link, Italians, Austrians, Dutch and Belgians (among others) require a visa to enter Turkey:

http://www.bodrum-info.org/airport/visa.htm

that's the latest trend a bit out of the topic, but i'll add anyway.

the turkish tour operators and basically the locals prefer the russian tourists so they try to get their business, mainly because they spend money, unlike the Germans. But I suspect it's also because Turkish men like Russian women.

The Germans these days go to German hotel chains, if they don't want to mix up with the natives (which many don't) or they go to their own houses.

Now if we are to speak about reciprocity, equality, we would need to consider any person living in the other country. I can't live here without going through one thousand hours worth of red tape. This doesn't make my living here any more or less eligible than a German living in Turkey, who requires no red tape. Probably I spend more time in Turkey than those Germans who spend time in German. But this is just speculation, so I won't insist.

Summary: I can't beat the official statistics, but you can

If I promise I will make maximum 2 kids, can I stay?

ok, i'm sidetracked by all the unnecessary topics from tom_a.

All I'm saying is... Germans should learn to appreciate diversity. Turks having lived here has helped them evolve as human beings. Even their laws have evolved, they now have equal opportunity laws. There are still some hard-headed people who won't change, but they will remain special whatever happens.

I have the same appreciation of diversity discussion in Turkish forums, but this time other way around. We can't avoid multi-culti any more, the societies of today are just mixed beyond any reversing option. We might as well learn to appreciate and enjoy it.

The point of my post was to say that ethnic Turkish people are no longer migrating to Germany in large numbers. Instead, more of them appear to be moving back to Turkey as opposed to coming here. The context was the claim made by others that Germany will soon turn into a "muslim country".

It will happen via millions of new Muslim babies, not via immigration. Every Muslim couple has 8.5 kids!!!

Are you a muslim?

to come up with this average, many many women must have 15+ kids, scary.

The more appropriate explanation: The number is complete bullshit.

We only have 1 kid, I really feel bad for the poor woman who had 16 to compensate us

do you mean, if i had an id card with an expiration date on it, i wouldn't need a passport?

you can't be meaning or thinking that...

Only with regard to entry into an EC member country... and of course that country has to sign off on accepting that specific document.

I think the example of Van Gogh is a valid one, and indicates that there is a very serious problem. You could argue the same for the situation of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or the reaction to the Mohammed caricatures, there are plenty of examples.

Where I disagree with you is the "disproportionate number" reasoning. Unfortunately, it does not take many people to create a huge problem.

In vast areas of Italy, there is a mafia problem. In parts of East Germany, there is a nazi problem. But the majority of Italians are not mafiosi, and the majority of East Germans are not nazi.

Has anyone looked properly at the statistics in the article?

Ten percent of Muslim girls are kept home from school trips, (So 90% go on them)

another seven percent are withdrawn from swimming lessons (Yet 93% aren't taken out of them)

and 15 percent are exempt from sexual education classes for religious reasons (So 85% aren't)

The majority of Muslims in Germany attend Mosque services ?rarely to never?,

while only a third go regularly.

Only 30 percent of Muslims here wear the politically-disputed head scarf,so the majority don't (Though I don't see why the headscarves is such an issue. My Grandma would never leave the house without a headscarf and gloves)

Sound pretty well integrated to me.

In the UK Out of 3,027,550 pupils registered in secondary schools, a total of 793,628 or 26.2% were absent without permission at some point - on average for seven days (bbc.co.uk)

From the figures quoted in the article this would mean that the majority of school children in British society aren't intergrated regardless of ethnicity. So should we send all the children back home?

I was just joking )

it is almost unimaginable

Because secular Turkey has banned headscarves from public life as "fundamentalist". Your grandma wouldn't have been able to enter any public building in Turkey. And of course Germany wants to be at least as secular as Turkey or something like that.

But we're not talking about Turkey. We we're talking about Germany.

you need to understand that the word "integration" does not really mean integration in "many" Germans' heads, including the well-educated ones. The sentence "but they are not integrated into our society" just summarizes and covers many dark, unpleasant, and discriminating thoughts. If you ask the same people what they mean about integration, and if you are dark skinned, they can't really give you an answer. I tried it many times already. I always wonder how the conversation would continue if I was a German.

hermannyorks: See edited post. They're pointing fingers at Turkey about it.

Even in July?

(tom_a looks out of the window, reconsiders his question, and understands... )

I think its a conspiracy by umbrella makers. You ban headscarves, then for equality you have to ban other head coverings. This means hoods on coats, sweatshirts etc. What do you do when its raining? You have to by an umbrella. Corporate conspiracy I tell ya.

In the early part of the 20th century in the UK if you were female and left the house without a hat (or headscarf) and gloves you would have been considered a hussy .

Nobody has a complaint about headscarves though. It's the symbolism of the repression of women that is the problem.

Edit: You just backed up my point beautifully.

Does that mean short skirts, low cut tops, tattoos, bikinis etc should be banned as these are used to make judgements on the social standing of women? Or should we go the other way and ban all items of clothing of modesty because some sectors of society make judgements on women because they don't wear them. We should ban roll neck jumpers, long skirts, shapeless jackets etc. Soceity always has views on modesty. I can see issues with the burqa (Most of which can be solved by having female security to check ID) but a headscarf? I think thats people trying to save individuals from themselves

Er, no. Nobody makes women wear those. Well not unless they are pimps anyway.

Ok, Turkey is a very strange country, you really can't judge it easily from this distance, it's very diverse.

I was once interviewing for an administrative position, women showed up in outfits bearing their belly button, or in jeans. Having started my career in the U.S. where you are only allowed navy colored suit for an interview, I was shocked. In Turkey, especially in summer, you just get used to office workers expressing their identities through their fashionable clothes.

Then you have the covered ones. Personally I'm against the ban, just like many Turkish people are. But I am all for educating these women about their rights and ensuring that they should wear the headscarf only if it's their free choice.

I'm against any religion anyway... so Islam or Christianity, headscarve or cross, don't matter.

Pas, most muslim women who wear a headscarf are not forced to do that either. It's peer pressure and "expectation", in both cases.

It might shock you but a lot of Muslim women where the scarf out of choice as well. Most of my wives colleagues who were Muslim didn't a couple did. It was personal choice. I take it you think that Sikh males should be saved from being coerced into wearing Turbans? Or maybe jews should be saved from their religous wear?

Sparkling no offence mate but I'm not talking about Turkey. I have no knowledge whatsoever about the country.

I was trying to make the point that if you are going to start enforcing rules on clothing to save people from oppression then you have to look at the wider society. Most people in the west are coerced through peer pressure and expectation not to go to the office naked, or in their underwear. They may not want to wear clothes, but the expectation is there. Different societies draw their lines for modesty in different places.

Try it in the more radical Muslim countries.

We're not talking about muslim countries. I though we were tallking about integration in Germany. To turn it round in Germany you can sunbathe naked in the Englisch Garten. Try it in Regents Park. You would be arrested. Does that mean we can call christian society oppressive because it forces people to wear clothes. Modesty is a complex and changing thing. And clearly as only 30% are wearing the scarf its not really an issue is it?

It's not modesty though is it. I agree it's not such a big issue in the west but the symbolism of what it represents is something we in the west tend to stand against.

Now sunbathing nude in Regents park would be progress.

Progress, dude, the type of person who sunbathes naked is not the kind you want to see sunbathing naked. We should be progressing towards weeding out all the mingers in the population, not encouraging them to get their wrinkly bits out.

You've not been the Sauna near me.

We don't stand against it. We are selective. I don't see rants against the Sikhs wearing turbans, or the Jews wearing kippah.

Sorry but it is about modesty. Its seen as dressing modestly. You might not agree with it but it's not your religion. Is it really that much of a threat to your identity someone wearing a bit of cloth on their hair? And as I keep pointing out its only 30% who wear the headscarf. Its not even a third. Really its a bit of a none issue.

I also believe that we should lead by example. If we want to crtisise regimes for being intolerant about the way people dress then saying "We don't like your intolerant ways, therefore we're not going to tolerate these adult people wearing this item of clothing" isn't really a viable tactic surely. Bit like for virginity

And it depends who was sunbathing nude in Regents Park. Could be MPs. That wouldn't be progress really

I remember chatting with a Turkish bus driver in Cappadocia. He told me he was not religious at all.

The next morning, I greeted him by saying "Merhaba." He rolled his eyes and said "Never say this! Only evil people say this! God does not like it!"

You'd soon see a whole better class of MP's being voted in though.

You'd also increase the turnout at elections (careful how I spell that).

I was recently talking with a German who told me it's predicted by 2050 there will be a Muslim chancellor here in Deutschland.

There are a fair few predicting we'll all be Dead by then and/or Jesus will return.

What if Jesus comes back as a Muslim. That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons.

It would be a sign of integration if a muslim Chancellor didn't take that long...

There's still only 5 muslim Bundestag members (offhand: three turkish sunni, one persian shia, one kurdish alevi?).

Sounds not too bad:

5 = 1 % of MPs

What's the percentage of voting-age German citizens that are muslim?

According to the article that prompted this thread, it's roughly 2 % (45 % of 4 m muslims, not all of which >18 years).

What percentage are women?

Interesting thought.

Generally speaking I even don't think the Germans itself are integrating very well when they move to other parts of Germany.

A person from the north has for sure some social problems when coming to the south and vice versa. The mentality of the people, cultural and religious differences etc. of various parts of Germany are not the same.

It probably has to do with Germany always been a large loosely connected landmass with tribes who even fought each other, then a unified one Germany with set borders (it is only unified since 1871). They kept to each other to survive, a tribalism with few (if any) significant social distinctions between individuals.

The phrase "but they are not integrated into our society" if a German says, strikes me always as odd. Does he think that "our society" is so special and doesn't need foreign input?

Tell him he should do 'Die Software upgraden'

My ex-boss was a practicing Catholic and had 11 kids. When I joined the company, he had 6 kids and the number was 11 by the time I left. I think his wife was expecting another one.

He was rich and could afford to bring them up well. It was also obvious that he really loved them. He really was a top guy but I never quite understood how one could have 11 kids and still be sane.

Pas:

Of all members of the Bundestag? 196 out of 612 (32.0%).

Or of the 5 Muslims? At least two (Lale Akgün, SPD, and Ekin Deligöz, Greens).

Better than I expected.

Anyway, when this Muslim chancellor arrives I hope it's a she.

Edit: And Lesbian.

Details of the 5 MPs can be found here:

http://de.wikinews.org/wiki/IslamOnline.ne...neuen_Bundestag

All five are ethnic Turks. Three were born abroad (in Turkey), the other two in Germany.

One of them defeated an "ethnic German" CDU candidate in direct voting for a constituency in Cologne (the others are Linke and Grüne, so they came in via the party lists).

That's the list from the last round (article from 2005). Not in the list is Omid Nouripour, Greens, who was born in Iran. The other two men are Hüseyin-Kenan Aydin and Hakki Keskin.

That's the current Bundestag, no?So you mean there are 8, not 5?

Actually, the two Turks are already on the list in my link. The Iranian came in afterwards (the Greens sent him to replace Joschka Fischer).

So the current number of muslim MPs is 6 (4 of which are foreign-born).

Mmm, yep, just went through the Bundestag site ;-)

6 muslim MPs, out of which 3 are women.

In your opinion. Personally I think the Germans and their culture would benefit massively from some 'outside influences'. Anyway your argument is bollocks, that's like saying "cheese and bread works rather well together, let's eat nothing but cheese and bread for the rest of our lives".

What a hot topic! What is remarkable on the whole discussion is that this discussion is in English and mostly by non Natives. The problem with the European Integration is that they do not have a common language (yet). Compare the North American 'melting pot' with the European stew and you see the Europeans have not been cooked long enough. What you people in Europe need is more mixture not less to become more tolerant of each other and a common language. How long that that process will take I hate to guess but it could be a few hundred years.In the meantime I still say there are to many Preissn in Bayern , therefore I stay here, accept a few words in French and Cree and be glad I'm a integrated Canadian who has no concern what god you pray to or what food you eat.

I bet there is more or less a common language in some our lifetimes. The Internet makes English the world language and a couple more generations and the job will be complete. In the past people only talked with people near them. Now we talk with people all over the world. Now the kids are doing it it won't take too long for the process to be complete.

It's an English language expat board. What do you expect?

Read what he wrote a little more slowly and what he said makes sense. Could have been worded better though...

so where were we again... ok, more Muslims in Germany, how it is a danger to Germans, etc.

Sometimes I am amazed at the knowledge of Islam the Western people have. This knowledge sometimes doesn't serve well. They start fearing that all the people from Muslim countries follow Kuran word by word. I tell you, many don't have a clue what's written in Kuran. Many do things, e.g. wear headscarves, because their parents or grandparents did. It would be healthier to evaluate Muslim societies with their practices.

About the headscarves, it's only a piece of cloth, but it scares people because it represents inequality, male dominance, loss of freedom for women. What if the Muslim men started wearing the headscarves (let's just imagine for a minute) for solidarity and emancipation with the Muslim women, would the Westerners be less scared of the headscarves? Probably no.

I also think a lot of it is because a lot of western people do not understand that level of religous devotion. Most christians in England are Hatch, Match and Dispatch christians and the thought that people would pray five times a day, and let religion play such a role in their life is fairly alien to them

Yes it could have been worded better. But it was 'worded' in the early morning as I could not sleep anymore and English was a subject I failed when I went to school in Germany 70 years ago.

I never had to write for a living so that part of my brain which does the co-ordinating of thoughts to the fingers gets mixed up sometimes. Sorry

Presumably by "fact" you mean "your opinion". Or did you finally get that time machine working and go check?

The only element that I find distasteful is your claim that 'only Muslim immigrants' had to complete an additional questionnaire. That, I do find highly discriminatory. However, as to the rest... why not? Nobody has the 'right' to become a citizen of another country purely on immigratory grounds. If one wants to become a citizen so badly, then no amount of testing would hinder one's objective (financial impediments not withstanding). The desire of a person fleeing a war torn region in fear of one's life maybe having more motivation and conviction than a purely economic refugee - differentiation of the two, no bad thing in my humble opinion.

Oh dear, you're one of those. Ok, carry on with your little tirade.

I'm not one to keep a hermaphrodite tied to a post in the garden, but what is Sgt. Bilko on about at all?

Fantastic. Quote of the thread.

Indeed. I'm trying to work out whether he's ignorant or stupid. Of course both is an option.

I like him. He seems to sharpen his pencil at both ends.

In response to post 155: it seems to me that if someone comes here with an intermediate or greater knowledge of German, especially if it is proven by passing an appropriate Goethe Institute exam, that person will not need to take the integration course (at least not the language portion). Given the importance of a solid knowledge of German (greater than that acquired in an integration course) for the vast majority of careers in Germany it would seem that by requiring it, the authorities want immigrants to succeed rather than fail, i.e., it is anything but an impediment. Why set an immigrant up for failure here by pretending that they do not need a good knowledge of German?

Hello to everyone. I'm new to TT, and live in Florida but lived in Hamburg for a while and will be back for a visit in about a month. This discussion is interesting because it's about the same as what we're having here in the U.S. Only here it's about Hispanic's, mainly Mexican and Puerto Rican. I grew up not 30 miles from here and that whole side of town is now Hispanic. Thirty years ago there were none there, AND, I've been told I need to learn to speak Spanish. Hell will freeze over first. The funny part is I used to laugh about Germany's Turkish problem. The compaints about "Turks."

I'll see what it's like now when I get there, but I don't remember the Turks living in Germany pushing for the language to be changed to Turkish or insist that stores label everything in Spanish etc etc. Many Turks, (and even though everyone is saying "Muslim or Islam", how many of you know any Muslim's that aren't Turkish? I new a couple, but not many. It's true that most didn't merge with German society very well...but they didn't demand that the Germans change.

I no longer "live" in Germany, so things may have changed. Even if you try to follow events and return to a place you used to live for visits...it's different than actually "living" somewhere day to day.

But my point is...I don't remember the Turks trying to "take over" or expect ME, or the Germans to learn Turkish or change anything. It may be different now.

But, what...(was it "old fighter"),...said, is right. The U.S. is heading downhill fast with the "CHANGE" our present administration are implementing. That's a different discussion though.

The 1st link I'm posting concerns Germany, but Islamic growth is not exclusively a German problem. If the 2nd links figures are true...it's everyone's. I have NOT checked all the statistics of that link.

For the U.S. I know that statistically by 2050 Hispanic's will comprise the majority segment of "American" society, and with present government policy towards immigration being the way it is...it may be sooner than that. Caucasian's will be a minority. Sorry this got so long.

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?l=1&id=4693

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/census.mi...ties/index.html

Conq. you are assuming that German conservatives WANT non citizen / ethnic Turkish / Muslim residents to become German citizens and achieve in German society.

They don't.

They are quite happy to have so called Ausländer underachieving, doing the shitty jobs and without political influence.

If I am honest, I do not think that any of my moslem friends or acquaintances are actually from Turkey. They come variously from Algeria (via France), Pakistan and Bosnia.

I just had this discussion less than ten minutes ago. That most of the Turks I know are not muslim if they are they are not practising muslims.

Jesus Fbob if you do not want to learn spanish then dont . Native tribes said the same thing and they are in fine condition. They had an even more open door policy to immigration.

Sorry but the DPM* got me.

*Double Post Monster

Tounge in cheek smiley required I hope?

I am not against immigration, how could I be being an immigrant myself, the only thing that grates is when the immigrant demands that the host nation has to change to accomodate the newcomer. A bit like being invited into someones home and then rearrangeing the furniture to suit yourself, impolite and annoying.

That is just it, if we are referring to the U.S. we were all immigrants some sooner than others. I am half Apache and half mexican which traces itself before Texas was even Texas ie post spanish empire early mexican territories. I was born and raised in Texas and lived in Oregon another 13 years both of which have a large and growing Hispanic population. I saw no request by Hispanics to change the language. Now there were and are a large business sector that are adjusting to meet that demographic which is smart business sense if you want that money now. If you want my money then I do want to be catered to. Case in point the local art store. They didn't carry what I wanted so I went on line Boesners. Now the owner of the store asked why I stopped coming in I told him and he now carries a slightly larger selection of gels and paper. I did not tell him to do so but he adjusted to accommodate me and a few others.

Now if the argument is a growing Hispanic population where "white" are no longer a majority by 2050 then that is a diff story. If you want to close your borders to a population then you have to close them to all. And for the record I seriously doubt the US immigration policy is that open.

I was just thinking this. I often go out to eat. I have to say that most bilingual menus I see here are German and English. With the occassional German Kurdish menu ( I like the cuisine).

would it matter if it did? Spanish has a longer history in North America than English, French, Dutch or any other European language. And as it has become the language of choice for many of the original inhabitants of the Americas it surely should be regarded as at least on a par with English?

I am always intrigued why for some languages a moral superiority is claimed, especially when it is two so closely related as Spanish and English.

I like English but if over the course of X generations it was to lose out against Spanish I wouldn't have a crisis about it.

If learning Spanish was a new skill set needed for a job as the customers wanted it, where's the problem with that?

Ask the French

And we have the nerve to call English the lingua franca now. Annoys the f()k out of the French

I think the attempt by France to artificially "hold the maginot line" against English is wrong and I have argued aginst a similar thing in Germany.

I love loads of German music, especially in the hip hop and elektro direction but I don't want anyone to be forced to listen to it.

I live in Germany since 2008, I did the integration course and I can see some clues. I believe there are several problems related. On one hand, there is a percentage of the immigrant population which does want to be part of the society, but they cannot work, because their professions are not recognized. On the other hand, there are immigrants who do not even care to learn the language, respect the culture and people, etc. This problem is independent from religion. In the class, they were Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, etc.etc and me as foreigner, I cannot understand the last group, trying to build their own little castle here in Germany. Being integrated is a personal decision rather than religious.

The integration course will help indeed, but if Germany wants to succeed in the immigrant integration process, I would relax the study recognition and support them in studies which the German economy requires.

Sorry oink I am seriously not making fun of you but I loved your line.next time I have to fill out paperwork I am going to check my next box for religion as Foreigner.

Urgent so urgent...urgent urgent urgent

When in Rome do as the Romans do........If whoever we are or where ever we come from adopted the rule we all would live happier.

Apart from Germany, I think that Europe, as a whole, will become increasingly muslim. Personally, I am not in favour of immigration from outside of the Eu, but the unfortuneate situation of Europe's 'greying population' may require this to stay afloat. It is likely that the new younger generations will be more atheist so the real problem lies with ethnic and cultural integration.

It seems to me that many muslim immigrants do not want to adjust to their adopted countries and , in fact, expect the situation in that particular nation to accomodate theirs wishes; this is best seen in the UK, where many muslim communities complain about being 'offended' by long standing christian traditions. The fact is, they came to a predominantly christian continent and should be prepared to accept christian values.

I don't think that anyone can quite envisage a predominantly muslim Europe, but if current population trends continue, this could be a reality.

- how should ethnic and cultural integration occur dc10fan, the hate monger, who just signed up to post this ? how do you measure the success or failure of integration?

- can you be more specific about "adjusting to adopted countries"? how do you measure the success or failure of such adjustment?

- can you please name the top 10 Christian values that you think the immigrants must accept? how do you measure the success or failure of acceptance?

- can you provide numbers for the population trends you mention, which forecast a muslim Europe? although, as you say, the next generation is expected to be atheist anyway.

Servus, wo kemmst denn her?

Vo dahoam.

We heard you the first two times you posted that. Why does it need a third go?

Yesterday I picked up a copy of the Financial Times newspaper to read on my long train ride and found this interesting article entitled Germany has Misread Islam.

Here's a copy of the final conference report issued by the Foreign Office of Migration and Refugees (BAMF) on the topic of Muslim life in Germany.

A one note musician or better yet a one trick pony/animal...

I see that the German gov't is keeping a real tight/accurate count of the people living within its boarders.

I don't think the muslim youngsters will be truly intergrated into german society until they are all wearing black, covered in piercings and with stupid haircuts Well they might have already got the stupid haircut part covered.

Sometimes it really counds like christmas around here after school

Don't hate me - I'm new and just having a laugh

Worth watching: Kebab, Kopftuch, Koran - wie muslimisch wird Deutschland?

Why did you pick that particular paragraph to quote? Why not the next one.That is the main problem with integration in germany - there is not enough variety in the immigrants.

The video which started all this nonsense has received a thorough debunking from the BBC.

Debunking a YouTube hit

I wouldn't trust that BBC article or what it claims to "report" any more than I'd believe what's in the video. The list of admitted comments at the bottom says enough about the slant that was taken in approaching the video. Nowhere is it mentioned that huge increases in Muslim immigration may be cause for concern cutltually in Europe. Sounds almost like the article was written by Muslims..

Because presumably you think that only Muslims would not hate Muslims and such hate comes naturally to everyone else? Actually, there are plenty of people from all walks of life that have no problem at all with there being Muslims in Europe and get a bit sick of the far right banging on about the Islamic peril that Europe supposedly faces.

I don't like any religion, so the spreading of any religion anywhere in the world is not something I view favorably.. That's especially the case with Islam, which is so foreign ( ) to European culture. Just ask Theo van Gogh..

Bloody fool sticking up for women...

How do you know? The birth rate may not be the same in 20/30 years time, so no one can really estimate this.

So? I mean at the end of the day, it is only religion, does it really matter how many muslims are in the country? A lot of them, especially the last two generations are really integrating into the German culture, or at least from what I have found.

there was a documentary on German TV last night, think it was Spiegel TV.

it documented some lack of integration from the Turkish minority population in Germany. many 2nd and 3rd generations born here do not feel the need or wish to integrate, including learning the language or culture, or mixing beyond their own segregated communities.

But isn't just a religion it is also a culture, parts of which are inimical to the German culture. As for the latest generations integrating?

40 Honour killings in the past 10 years - the majority of which have been carried out by people who where born/raised in Germany doesn't sound all that integrated to me.

Go and read the Gallup Coexist Index 2009.

Muslims show the exact same opinions as others where it counts. They're just (considerably) more conservative. And far too trusting of the government.

some might not integrate but I see plenty enough Turks drinking bier in the gay parts of the GBV to convince me that a sizeable proportion of the community is very very integrated.

really? In the Uk they are more likely to vote left.

I am absolutely not surprised at all that "drinking beer with the gays" constitutes full integration in your opinion. Pretty sad.

I would have thought that drinking beer and being out as a gay man or woman shows at least that it is not islamic mores that guide their every move.

[url=http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/File/118267/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx]Gallup Coexist Index 2009

Muslims in Germany show a classic conservative stance with regard to issues like abortion, homosexuality or pre-marital sex to an extent similar to conservative Christians (in countries like Poland, Ireland, Italy or the US, you might get far more similar results to the German Muslim numbers).

(moved from the other post, since it was a late edit:)That's one per one million muslims in Germany per year. In the same period there were also five murders per one million non-muslims in Germany per year. So?

And that's integration how ???

Even someone like me wouldn't say "drinking beers with a bunch of Catholics at the Oktoberfest" in any way points towards integration.

The fact that they can be open about their homosexuality shows a significant degree of integration in itself. They couldn't do that in the Middle East.

And yes, going to traditional German events is part of integrating into the local culture. Of course it is.

I'm a 'Muslim', drink beer, go to Wiesn, have homosexuals as good friends, speak German and have German friends - think I've integrated. And if I have, how many others?

Hello there. Same here. I do not eat pork though.

What's actually interesting in that Gallup poll is the comparison between the three countries (UK, France, Germany), as the primary "source" of muslims is a different part of the world in each case.

It makes it clear that it's not a case of "Muslim values", but the social environment of both the respective home country and the country the people have immigrated to.

Classic conservative? 82% of German muslims think homos are morally wrong. I don't think you are likely to find any single group of other Germans who are that conservative.

Those five murders per one million non-muslims in Germany - are they all commited for the same reason? If not then your comparison is meaningless.

kato: Might be the case, but I'm integrated in the UK too and not from the majority Turkish Muslim minority present here in Germany.

Krieg - I was being facetious with regards to parnell's post although what I wrote is true, including sex outside of marriage.

Such simplistic and generalized assumptions will always have those who don't fit into the stereotypical box. I would say that 'Muslim values' is such a stereotype.

This is vaguely on topic:

In the wee town where we live, there is of course one of those "freiwillige feuerwehr" things. My knowledge of German is as everyone knows, almost zero, but by observation over the years, I've worked out that a freiwillige feuerwehr is some sort of weird club for blokes, where you organise booze ups several times a year, and dress up as firemen for a laugh.

Anyway, they organise loads of booze ups, and I've been going to them for years. There are a load of Turkish people where I live, but the FF pissups were always an almost exclusively 'German' affair - until this year.

As well as the standard grilled pork derivatives and tons of beer, this year had a load of Turkish food and teas; and there were as many women in headscarves as there were fat blokes with overgrown moustaches and ridiculous leather shorts. Was a really good day for all involved.

Ta da!

http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=1478Getting smashed with whomever does not point towards integration - getting jobs does !

And do you consider the "drinking beers with the gays" bit as being sufficient grounds for proof of integration ?

[quote name='hams' date='11.Aug.2009, 1:48pm' timestamp='1249991294' post='1733745']Krieg - I was being facetious with regards to parnell's post although what I wrote is true, including sex outside of marriage.

I´m sorry to tell you that your grasp of statistics doesn´t seem to be very firm. You are just talking about honour killings. I guess that the number of honour killings among the "native" population is pretty low. Yet 30% of homicides in Germany are being committed by non Germans.

ina country with one of the lowest murder rates in the developed world ...

Yet 30% of homicides in Germany are being committed by non Germans.

24.7% actually, not 30%.

I guess that the number of honour killings among the "native" population is pretty low.

Pretty low is a relative term. I'd bet you at least 20% of the homicides in the non-muslim population at least shows similar characteristics to "honour killings", making it a similar rate.

I suppose you just happened to overlook that I speak the language and have German friends. I'll also add that I have a full-time job and thus, contribute to the economy as a productive member of the German labour force and have borne a son who is half German.

Is that integration in your opinion?

And you, as a non-Muslim, how have you integrated?

28,3 % according to the Polizeiliche Kriminalstatistik 2007. I´m happy to see you backing up your claim that a fifth of homicides committed by Germans are "honour killings".

No pork? This is blasphemy!!! Why can't you eat pork?!?! No Salami, no Ham?!

Regarding the muslims in Germany... I think Germany should go back to their old Jus sanguinis principle. That would restrict all immigrants. And they should ban that human rights crap every country is applying to defend the "poor and hopeless"... Apparently everyone has forgotten that rights come along with duties.

[quote name='hams' date='11.Aug.2009, 2:43pm' timestamp='1249994615' post='1733843']I suppose you just happened to overlook that I speak the language and have German friends. I'll also add that I have a full-time job and thus, contribute to the economy as a productive member of the German labour force and have borne a son who is half German.

Is that integration in your opinion?

No problems with any of the immigration. Turkish girls are well foxy!

I haven't read the whole thread, but I bet somewhere in there "that youtube video" made it.

You know, the one telling "Christians to begin reproducing again"

Well, snopes has taken apart. It did seem a little crazy when I watched it, good to see some facts.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,643941,00.html

I moved to germany a year ago and i could never imagine in my worst nightmare that germany is so full of this "trash" that has SOOO many rights. poor german taxpayers are busting their asses to pay social welfare to muslims who are reproducing with the speed of light and are being nothing else but trash that destroys the economy of the country. why do you think the taxes are being raised all the time? coz someones gotta pay for the turks living and the kindergeld to each of the 10 lil turks that are born from each turkish woman that has never worked in her life!

and how do you like that white kids have to learn muslim religion in school? or that there is already a muslim in the german parliament? whats next? gemrans will die out like dinasours coz they are afraid to reproduce coz they dont have the money for it simply coz they are paying for the reproduction of trash that is destroying sbahns, goes to jail all the time, etc...turks, even in the 3rd generation still speak a very poor german and are nothing else but a huge nuisance to the german population. I cannot believe that the racist German society puts up with this trash, especially paying so much of their salaries to support all the lil turks...PFFFF

And thanks very much for your OWN thoughtful contribution to our little community, julie. Since you're so critical of third-generation ethnic Turks' German, let me just say that I hope your own German is much better than your English.

please correct me if Im wrong in what I said, I just dont sugarcoat a pile of poop. all I know is that Im paying 62% in tax in order to support all the lazy turkish bastards that do nothing but reproduce

62%?!? REALLY?? And you get nothing from that at all. No wonder you're upset.

Maybe you could provide a link to a reputable website that supports your assertions that:

1. Turkish people in Germany are lazy;

2. Turkish people in Germany do nothing but reproduce;

3. All little white children in Germany are forced to study Islam in public schools;

4. Third-generation Turks in Germany have poor German skills;

5. Turkish women never work;

6. Turkish people are destroying S-Bahns;

7. The tax rate in Germany is 62%.

go to Kreuzberg and experience the beauty of the Turkish population and "civilization" there. see how 3rd generation turks cant even speak proper german and are saying things like "ISCH geheeee karschtaaaaaatttt"

Julie , in fairness there are many many Turkish folks in Germany who are working just as hard as the natives. How long have you lived here ? I call an apple nothing but an apple - see my posts on the Roma here but I think you're a bit off on the Turkish folks.

May we know which one of you is spouting off right now? Or is it a joint effort?

Oh, I think they're both doing a great job, Kay. And I love the opinion that German people are racist!

(Also, that Turkish women have tons of kids, but never work. But let's not even go there.)

62% income tax? Honey, fire your Steuerberater or if you've been attempting to do your taxes yourself, find one who can do basic maths...

Or perhaps stop getting your "facts" about Germany from ignorant right-wing blogs. What tax class are you filing as?

but she seems to favour German racism. I can almost hear her goosestepping from here ...

They can't be doing that badly if they are going to Karstadt. Or does the whole education / aspiration thingy not work here then?

But I know how all the Turks in Germany could be much better off.

It's when you take your narrow-minded, racist, and hatemongering arse back to where you came from!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Ruuuuuuun!!! Get to da choppah!!!

(nice accent) No, please, please, please. Don't send him/her to Boston.

Boston, Ireland same thing really. One has sell-ticks . The other has Celtics .

Ah, so that could have contributed to my mix up on the Lockerbie thread.

OMG! You're simply pathetic! You're not even worth responding.

Who are you Julie?

It seems that I, the Turkish woman who works and pays high taxes and has no child, am sponsoring your education. Your profile says you are an American, here you say you are German and your wife an Eastern European. are you really German?I also complain sometimes that I am paying so much of my salary to support all the German female colleagues who stay at home and collect Eltern Geld. But then I re-think and see the advantages and disadvantages of the tax system.You complain about 360EUR for a marriage certificate fee, and then claim to be in the 62% tax bracket? I thought you were a student, studying for free.I wish!

It's really difficult to decide where to start replying to so many unsubstantiated claims, but I'll try:

• "Poor German taxpayers": Guess what, Turkish people are taxpayers, too. The lowest tax tariff is at 14%, and taxes (without social security contributions) rise according to income, but are never above 50%. BTW, as a married couple, you probably benefit from a nice tax break.
  
  
• Turkish women never work: A lot of them hold jobs, and raising kids is work , too.
  
  
• Mandatory Islam classes: In Berlin, religious classes are not part of the regular curriculum (same in Brandenburg and Bremen), and of course parents and kids can decide about participation in classes of their demonination in all other states.
  
  
• Muslim MPs: There are a few in the Bundestag, what's so shocking about that? There are also Germans who converted to Islam. This shouldn't bother you as a citizen of the US, the country that is founded on the idea of religious freedom.
  
  
• 3rd generation Turks speaking poor German: Part of it is youth slang, part of it is not speaking so well because these people are not 3rd generation, but relatively newly arrived as family members or refugees from other Middle Eastern countries.
  
  
• "The racist Germans": So the Germans are racist, but somehow not racist enough for your liking? Strange logic.
  
  

42% actually, and the effective tax rate is something like 34% at that amount (since part of the income is never taxed). 50% is for self-employed, or …[/quote]Btw, it's always funny to read about "young foreigners having higher crime rates" - the age split is actually inverted. Something like 9% of all crimes committed by foreigners are committed by youths, while 12% of all crimes committed by Germans are committed by youths.

And please. No one in Germany goes to jail, especially not youths.

What? I think you are confusing insurances with taxes.

Einkommenssteuer, Tarifzone III (above 52): Grenzsteuersatz 42%.

That's without insurances or anything, just the income tax (45% if you're in TZ IV, but that's ... unlikely).

The effective tax rate is of course lower than that - since you're only paying tax for every Euro you earn at the proper tax rate for that. At around 100,000 Euro income (ie twice the minimum for TZ III) it's around 34% actual tax you're paying.

With an adjustment to 1.055 times the regular tax due to Soli.

when people say "tax" they often mean all the things that get taken off your gross including KV, PV ALV etc. Add all those up and you do pay more than 50% if you are a high earner in tax class 1.

The Jedi has spoken....

Sure, why not add Mehrwertsteuer and certain luxury taxes (tobacco, alcohol, fuel) on top too? Then we're at 90%.

Zomg we pay 90% tax!

don't be a dumbarse kato. none of those are payroll deductions.

We dont for gethauyertungfing. I hate that tax! Total bullshit.

I indeed think "racist Germans" was a compliment. In her view racism is a positive trait.

And she wonders why the racist Germans ( = good Germans) don't stand up.

Islam is a race now?

And Christians and Jewish too. Your point?

Awesome.

I'm a big fan of the Flying Spaghetti Monster myself.

Put that diatribe onto pages and bind it and I'll know you're for real. It's worked before.

Thanks for letting us know. All the Toytown readers will now go to the information.

Are we allowed to study and practice in a group or will be saved by hell-fire only if we study and practice by ourselves?

If a modern man crawled into a cave and hallucinated for a few days, then came out with a text and said God told him what to write, who's gonna believe him?

Roll the clock back 1400 years and you've got yourself Mohammed. He wasn't a bad guy, but I think he was in the right place at the right time.

Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

The Bedouin got an illiterate child molestor as a prophet and now we get a guy with a tenuous grasp of English posting youtube videos.

Allah needs a better PR staff.

How about marrying a 9 year old? Certainly not fit for this country.

to be fair, people would be equally hostile here if you were christian. it's not about being anti-muslim. people just get tired of other people quoting history books and making other people feel afraid of fire.

There. Fixed that for you.

To the bin to the bin to the bin bin bin

To the bin to the bin to the bin bin bin

To the bin to the bin to the bin bin bin

To the binnnnnnn... to the bin bin bin

William Tell was here

From your linked site:Seriously, is that the quality of argument Islam puts forward for it's own existence? No wonder everyone hates it.

Lol that website is funny - The bangladeshi educational channel disproved Darwin long ago, its so obvious it doesn't need citations.

Darwin was only an armature naturalist, he couldn't spot a crocoduck if it bit him in the arnuß

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8329244.stm

There's also that...

(to name just one example, from just today..)

"Anarmature generally refers to one of the two principal electrical components of an electromechanical machine? a motor or generator, but may also mean the pole piece of a permanent magnet or electromagnet, or the moving iron part of a solenoid or relay. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armature_(electrical_engineering)

He was a man of many talents. Author, explorer, scientist, component in an electromechanical generator..

Listening to this is very hard. The Imam mixes Arabic(?) and English and the sound quality is poor. So it makes no sense for someone who doesn't speak Arabic to try to follow this, which I did out of pure scientific curiosity. What I did catch though was that Mohammed married 11 wives due to the circumstances these women were in and not because of being hypersexual. Or something like that.

Besides this, as a tip and seeing that you are new to this forum, this is perhaps not the best place to win more souls for the Islam. This is a forum for native English speakers and most people here just try to live and let live. Those who don't will only attack you.

So would this be a sort of Allahs Witness type thread now then?

No matter what we say or do you just keep coming back?

You should change your name to Visit or maybe smite?

Eating halal food is supporting cruelty to animals. Having "dominion" over the animals doesn't give you the right to brutalise them.

Go away. We already have BabBob, and that's enough thanks.

I'd rather go to hell than give up booze and bacon.

Dastaqir,

Yo, listen up. This is a cultural issue I believe. In the western culture it is considered offensive to publicly go on about your beliefs, whether they be Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Voodoo. I realise it is different in your part of the world, it is seen as doing something good. We consider religion to be something very private, something you don't share with others or if you do, in certain designated places such as temples or churches or sinagogues or mosques. By going on and on about your religion here, you are probably making people feel uncomfortable. So I truly believe you are doing your religion more harm than good by having chosen this method to reach people. There must be other ways and other places for doing this. Also, proselytising doesn't really suit the topic title of the thread.

Someone please turn this ass-hat off!

I just found out, "learning-by-doing", that there's a maximum number of negative ratings you can give per day..

Seriously, the West started to learn about the perils of religion a long time ago.. Islam is just, like in so many things, a couple hundred years behind..

We'd all be better off without religion.

Truth be said, with BadBob there is a certain level of conversation. And he does not go on posting the whole day.

This nutter here is only replying to voices in his head, and copying/pasting the same stuff over and over.

Given the quantity (very high) and quality (very low) of your posts, I think that that company would not be in the Fortune500 if it did not get rid of employees like you.

It has nothing to do with your religion.

What's your take on the Great Satan?

More importantly, Spurs v Arsenal at the weekend - Defoe's out, but Arsenal aren't on scintillating form...I think we've got a shot...

Very true , he's no more dogmatic than many other posters here.

Makes you wonder how muslims got converts before youtube...

Oh wait, the sword, forgot..

ugh i keep checking up on this thread for some reason.

this dastagir douche is like a nagging girlfriend that you long ago fell out of love with. blahblhablahblahblah. OFF ALREADY!!!

Dastagir, please stop it. And you should know that preaching non-Muslims is not encouraged.

Yeah, the sword and a whole lot of fear mongering. If you ever read the kakaran, you would see just how brilliant it is at brainwashing. It's bizarre... they instill fear of allah, in a paragraph, but is always followed by some gibberish like "allah is pure, allah is great, allah is forgiving" and then it goes on to tell you that you will be stoned if you do something bad.... then "allah is pure, allah is great, allah is forgiving" then they go on to say, you should be good in life, but that does not mean you will get into heaven and we'll decide when you get die, but don't count on it because "allah is pure, allah is great, allah is forgiving." It is no wonder these people are so twisted and intolerant. It's like the worst case fundamentalist christians X 100.... Just bizarre.

Making for with of satanic believing which to derived purpose can very enable.

But I love my sins why should I avoid them?

Say what you will about Islam, those prayer calls during our Turkey vacation made a good drinking game - face mecca and take a shot 5 times a day.

Awesome thread. Islamic Badbob with a million youtube videos nobody is going to be arsed to watch. I suspect not half as much fun as boabie though.

I see. So you are possessed by an entity secretly stearing your fingers and which took over your TT account?

Damn, that must be, like, the holy grail of posts, or something.

I watched 1 min max, once again out of pure scientific curiosity (I should be working). So my question to all religious TTers believing in hell is thi…[/quote]At the same time, we humans are said to be incomplete, full of sin. Yet we are able to forgive after a while, even those who did terrible things to us. We take little joy in watching suffering, well, unless we are mentally ill (psychotic). So we, the sinful are able to forgive, we the sinful, move on, we the sinful, couldn't bear watching someone suffer in great pain for all eternity, and you, the religious, want us to believe in the mercy of your so-called gods. Truly bizarre. Your gods are fear-loving, psychotic torturers who take great joy in the agony of others. No wonder you believe that gods created the earth, the stars, the universe. If you think of all the suffering on earth, it must be quite a kick for a bunch of sadists.

And I don't want to repeat myself, but it seems I have to: THEN OFFIf I go to post 262 will you go away forever?

I wouldn't try that in some of the more "Conservative" islamic states or you might find it reads "face mecca and get shot 5 times a day."

I make it a rule to never travel somewhere where I cannot get pissed.

Here here!!.. Well said..

Where? Where?

There there!!..

My apologies to TT'ers for awakening the "DASTAGIR", but I have a very important (read wind-up) question for him to ponder:

With the vein farms terrorist. A break alleges the voltage. Islam chooses around the rusty search. Terrorist dances islam with the upward road.

Can you explain this based on the Holy Qur'an? Do you have a youtube video that addresses this profound and far-reaching statement? Please do not disappoint, we expect a very good explanation...

PS: can you recommend a good place for some kickass kahwa in Germany?

Dastagir,

What will you do on the day of judgement when faced with our Lord Jesus Christ? Come to the truth.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also." ( John 14:6-7)

Just one quick question. What?

I do not want to post anymore, you are welcome to speak the same language.

I pressurize all to visit this website where we can all learn some proper English.

CONCLUSION: after the learning, the posting #262 (the Holy Grail of all posts) will be clear.

Can you answer the questions, I'm never going to go to you tube to watch someone else's video and try and find your answer.

What will you do when you face judgement from our Lord Jesus Christ?

The statistics office's projections are based on an annual influx of migrants of between 100,000 and 200,000 people. Many of them are expected to be Muslims. A small group of policymakers and scientists have been warning that by 2050 Germany might become a Muslim-dominated country. But Radermacher apparently thought little of ideologically-tinted theories.

There is no such thing as a population that stays unchanged. In Britain; the culture of the Angles and the Celts was for all intents and purposes wiped out by the Romans when they invaded; the Normans who invaded from the south a few hundred years later were descended from longboat pioneers from Scandinavia before even the Romans got to Britain.

Germany and most of the countries east of here have all at some time been subject to invasion by Barbarians, Huns, Vandals, Visigoths and a whole load of other unwashed undesirables.

The Turks of the Ottoman empire held siege to Vienna in the late 17th century, is Austria now overrun by Muslims and covered in mosques?

This thread is going to give me a platform to introduce my next meet up and it is german wide invitation. An action figure get to gether. Break out the GI Joes, Xmen, Star Wars, Power Ranger and any action figures and we will have a duke out and drink some beer. I have an Admiral Ackbar, Bobba Fett, and Grant Hill(Detroit 1995) action figure I plan to bring. Date and venue have yet to be decided so keep your ideas, eyes, and HOPE alive for the up coming thread.

Oh only one ninja allowed per participant(cause ninjas kick ass). Also no Ken dolls allowed unless your the Lions man.

Feel free to bring him along also. One per particpant as well.

The Prophet must have had a tough time preaching without youtube.

Jesus Christ...

Dastagir, I am sorry but I can't understand a word you are saying.

you Techsmex, and you dastagir. the guy had almost left until you responded.

So, dastagir, you're a mental patient and can't get a handle on things, and now decide to start posting in english on a site that clearly doesn't want to read what you have to say.

OFF. Keep your Allah if you need him. But don't dump that on us because we've heard it all before, so off.

I did find this action figure.

http://images.uncyc....ctionFigure.jpg

It is to us Your sorryness external of the meeting board, is welcome for You with Him.

I demand that, is right that a company with the large estimate it tried to poison my hair gel?

If examined my screen in #262 then will see that the Dog was generated of the God and the Goat was born from the Coat.

Peace

I just wanna say PBUH.

For some reason I always think of this guy when I read that.

(attached image)

As this link clearly proves.

What i can gather from all this is; He is just imposing his religion upon us, and i believe we have already made up our minds. And he is condemning us all to Hell-fire! (Whatever the hell that is) no pun intended;)

And whats more scary than this guy babbling to himself on a forum is, I have to keep coming back to laugh!

It seems obvious to me that, it is a person who has just found a religion they can believe in, and he is trying to push it on everyone he meets. Like being brainwashed. Then again it is almost Halloween, mmmmmm BRAINS!

Dastagir,

I am not anti-Muslim or anti-Islam. I just don't agree with your ideology. A few reasons:

[list=1]

You 'honor' kill each other, slaughter each other, stone women who commit adultery and murder anyone who converts away from Islam.

Muslims by decree cannot and will not assimilate to any other culture.

You consider Western culture as depraved, because our women wear bikini's on the beach or show their lovely bodies (I rather like that)

I like to eat whatever I desire, pork or not.

I don't like to be forced to pray 5 times a day.

I like free speech whether it's blasphemous, rude or offending to some people. We in the western culture like to make fun of ourselves. We have hispanic, black, redneck, jewish and white comedians who know no boundaries. If you cannot laugh at your culture, religion, or nationality then this is rather sad.

An American/'Westerner' can always convert to any religion they want - Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism, etc, but a Muslim can never convert to anything else, true? Why not?

When was the last time an organized group of Muslims offered a reward for Islamic terrorists?



This is only the tip of the iceberg. Western culture may someday fall on it's face but it won't be due to Islam. Islamic terror tactics will fail because they are not logical. The negative aspects will never be accepted by an educated and refined society. Have you considered converting away from Islam?

Report abuse »

"We have hispanic, black, redneck, jewish and white"

Ah, the 5 sacred colours. Yes, Jewish is a colour. It's kinda purple tinged with guilt.

Nobody said anything about color, rather trying to make a point of the freedom of expression by different folks..coulda included native americans, asians, irish, aborigines

Don't get me wrong, I agreed with you. The +1 was from me. Just thought it was amusing.

Irish is a colour too. Not green as one might expect. Actually a slightly off-blue shade with a touch of 800 years of oppression to give it depth.

no worries mate..just wanted to make sure I wasn't excluding anyone

I like your spin on shades

and thanks for the feather

Your timeline is messed up.

Roman conquest of Britain: 43 AD

Roman departure from Britain: 410

Angles migrate to Britain: ca. 400-600

Viking leader Rollo and King Charles the Simple establish the Duchy of Normandy in France: 911

French Normans conquer England: 1066

I won't argue with you on that, but the point remains that every country has and always will be influenced by changing patterns of migration throughout it's history.

(attached image)

(attached image)

... and on a lighter note ...

(attached image)

HAPPY HALLOWE'EN!

382 post ,75 links, and not one picture of a nudie girl. Waste of a thread in my opinion.

Well me sideways, it's Psioni in a turban.

And people telling people how to live their lives. You see I am being the better guy. I am an infidel so I go to hell. So more room for you in heaven. So what are you bitching about?

(attached image)

Dastagir, why don't you just piss off? No one here is paying any attention to what you're saying, go and stand outside a shopping mall with a sandwich board, at least people have the option to walk past you..

They're sort of paying attention though, Chocky. Enough to keep the thread moving along at a fair pace. We get a Dastagir type along every now and again. It's like a part-time pet for people who can't keep one around all the time.

I remember my first pet. A chia. We spent a lot of time together when I was little. Sure the other kids made fun of me, but when spring came around they were jealous.

D.A.S.T.A.G.I.R.

Dipshit

Assclown

-for-brains

Turdburgular

Assbandit

Gormless

Imbecile

Retard

You were a very lucky child. I remember hunting for alley cat kittens, tadpoles, and making an antfarm in used beer bottles. Once in awhile we got lucky and a baby bird would fall out of its nest. You were very fortunate my friend. My mother always wanted a chia but I never made enough shoe shine money to make her dream come true

My first pets were, trapped spiders, grasshoppers, and half dead poisoned mice i found in my backyard. +"Look mom he likes me, he's not running away"

*snorts coffee out of nose laughing* No, really?

Since this is your fifth post in a row with no response, why don't you just post this stuff in your profile and we'll be sure to drop by and check it out.

Allah is out behind the bike shed at the moment having a cheeky toke on a doobie with Jeebus, he left me in charge and he asked me to ask you if you could please stop with the annoying posts. Or else (and I think he really means it too....you don't want to test god when he's wasted, he tends to get all smitey)

If you've just wasted 2 minutes reading Dastagir's god bothering diatribes, then here's something that may be of more interest.

Instructions for a Morphy Richards carpet cleaner.

Well if this were my pet I'd have booked it in to be terminated by now. I like a good nutter and this guy is in no way a good nutter.

Poor Dastagir is probably just one of countless Al-Qaeda energizer bunny bots assigned to the internet chat rooms and he's stumbled upon a goldmine pulpit at TT. It ain?t the blow yourself up, kill the infidels, become a martyr career path, but hey, it pays the bills and someone's got to do it! I'll bet Dastagir makes the Top 50 ?Badger them to Death? list at this year?s recognition ceremonies.

Almighty God gives massages? Do you get a happy ending too?

All religion is socially accepted craziness. He's obviously severely afflicted.

Dastagir only drinks knowledge, tBfB.

But yes, he could use some job-hunting tips.

Dastagir, with all respect, I think a dedicated Islam chat forum might be more suited to your posts. I've taken 30 seconds out of my busy schedule to find one on Google for you. But if it isn't to your liking, there seem to be many others.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/index.php

All the best to you for the future.

@Dastagir - Islam on the Internet via YouTube according to Dastagir Do you not have an original idea of your own?

Posted: 30.Aug.2009, 1:58pm #256

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpd-Ek1-RRc

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 12:48am #262

www.ourholyquran.com,

www.scienceislam.com,

www.thedeenshow.com,

www.iisna.com,

www.icna.org,

www.ahmed-deedat.co.za,

www.irf.net,

http://www.imhalal.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoVRBXSxJM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVl5Y0OGMEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1suNCpa6Dc&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX6QDOZ3864&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckfp4IKAN2M&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnFyrz9p64&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xcld-qprE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdBC6J9C_fU&feature=PlayList&p=C5D96759350E303B&index=0&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDi-1CPmwE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMwbVmMkIw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpd-Ek1-RRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrlE4R5Sy9U&feature=related

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=OV6A8oGtPc4&feature=PlayList&p=EE2EBF8303BD5DB4&index=0&playnext=1

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 2:00pm #268

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYib7ZjdTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHujiWd49l4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2AiThc5KZ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YESOALgVhLw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7XItzGbmY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fweHunL5FBE&feature=related

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 2:20pm #272

http://www.youtube.c...ex=0&playnext=1/

www.scienceislam.com

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 2:30pm #275

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM4MF8S7Ro0&feature=PlayList&p=299C98D1CDF01792&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 2:35pm #276

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuvux9ase8w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH6oe5AR_OM&feature=related

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 2:54pm #278

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtE3uL9J0PA

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 3:14pm #282

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvHHYrdiXHE

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 3:17pm #283

www.scienceislam.com

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 3:52pm #292

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnFyrz9p64&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xcld-qprE&feature=related

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 3:55pm #293

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 4:00pm #295

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoVRBXSxJM

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 4:06pm #297

www.scienceislam.com,

www.thedeenshow.com

www.iisna.com

www.icna.org

www.ahmed-deedat.co.za

www.irf.net

http://www.imhalal.com/

Posted: 28.Oct.2009, 4:17pm #302

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AieLCYP2aE&feature=related

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 10:09am #315

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3XU5WaefRQ&feature=related

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 10:13am #316

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7XItzGbmY

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 10:15am #317

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2AiThc5KZ8&feature=related

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 10:17am #318

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHujiWd49l4&feature=related

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 10:52am #324

http://www.ourholyquran.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=322&Itemid=253

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoVRBXSxJM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVl5Y0OGMEE

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 11:03am #326

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgyD2VHGavE&feature=related

Posted: 29.Oct.2009, 11:20am #329

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU&feature=related

Posted: 30.Oct.2009, 4:00pm #341

http://www.ourholyquran.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=323&Itemid=253

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmdKVRq6vZc&feature=related

Posted: 30.Oct.2009, 5:47pm #348

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM6KrYB1wdw

Posted: 30.Oct.2009, 6:38pm #353

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Posted: 30.Oct.2009, 7:12pm #355

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YESOALgVhLw&feature=related

Posted: 31.Oct.2009, 12:19am #374

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=OV6A8oGtPc4&feature=PlayList&p=EE2EBF8303BD5DB4&index=0&playnext=1

Posted: 31.Oct.2009, 12:21am #375

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6A8oGtPc4&feature=PlayList&p=EE2EBF8303BD5DB4&index=0&playnext=1

Posted: 31.Oct.2009, 2:10pm #379

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxZLB7qTS8&feature=related

Posted: 31.Oct.2009, 3:57pm #384

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYib7ZjdTI

Posted: 31.Oct.2009, 7:54pm #394

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIv-virdXFo

Posted: Yesterday, 11:08 am #400

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=5zYib7ZjdTI

Posted: Yesterday, 11:09 am #401

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYib7ZjdTI

Posted: Yesterday, 11:11 am #402

http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html

Posted: Yesterday, 10:47 pm #415

http://www.ourholyquran.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=323&Itemid=253

I just do not want to waste my precious time on above information/propaganda.

Some people would say that's a problem with Islam, as well as many other conservative religions. You're actually not encouraged to have an original idea of your own.

With that in mind, simply cutting and pasting a lot of scripture, and adding no commentary of your own (presumably showing you have no thoughts of your own), is perfectly in line with this philosophy.

Then again, a lot of people turn to religion (not just Islam) because they believe it absolves them from thinking.

A compelling argument in favor of Germany's continuation of the home-schooling ban, if you ask me.

It's a pity, TBH. I would like to hear from a genuine ,practicing Muslim about their thoughts on Islam, as I am not as well-schooled in this religion as I would like to be. I just literally cannot understand this guy at all.

I don't think it is fair to compare this one to BadBob. You gotta give BadBob credit - that guy knows his dogma backwards and forwards and can express it coherently.

Absolutely. Whoever Badbob is is clearly very sharp and well versed in how to 'debate' but in a style that means there can be no conclusion past he is correct. Whoever this is is clearly well versed in copy and pasting from somewhere else, there ain't enough hours in the day to string out this nonesense, and is really only here to piss people off.

There's a book on my shelf on world religions sugar. That'd give you a start.

I've wondered a few times if this is some other TT-er taking the piss...

It amazes me how some would think that proselyting on the internet with incoherent copypasta is going to change anyone's mind. I don't think he's worth any respect whatsoever - he is not trying to engage in debate, he's just a spammer.

Maybe its like the Nigerian Millionaire scams, if you spam 100,000 forums maybe you get one feeble minded 80 year old in your net. He certainly shares a lack of English ability with those spammers.

I've read plenty about Islam; I've just never had the occasion to hear from a practicing Muslim. Anyhow, TT is a lousy forum for these kinds of discussions, but it would have been interesting if he had be more coherent.

No, thank you! I think I'm slowly coming around to your line of thinking. Praise almighty Allah (peace be upon him)! Do you have any more links and information?

I forthrightly waiting am being me.

It would be a bit more palatable if there was some parmesan to go with it.

hey dastagir

your presence is no longer welcome. can you not see this? you have said everything you can possibly say, now please just let us burn in hell. we don't give a about what you have to say, because you are a brainwashed zombie. we are all willing to have an intellectual conversation, but you sadly don't bring that.

so go away. you've done everything possible. you can go now. just go. don't look at this like a challenge. just go. go to the doctor, get your head examined. you are mentally ill. not because of what you believe, but because the way you preach it. just go away.

That's issue much good one of you, you they have asked that already but unfortunately person not to answered.

In the name of the population of "Toytown", I would want thanking you them to repeat the question.

Task it depends from the dimension and the resolution of "Image"

Task this for interlaced binary papers or compressed formats such as Jpeg, although, can apply a sure reduction in price for the hell-fire.

I have one bad and one good news.

Bad news first, in Turkey the mosques started hanging loudspeakers outside. It is getting really annoying. Once I was passing by a mosque and had to listen to an Imam's view about freedom. We used to have 'conservatives', now we have many 'fanatic believers'. Meanwhile, the government is pushing their agenda further. After strong rejections from Merkel and Sarkozy, they are turning to the East, e.g. Iran, very worrying.

Other news is from Italy, I applaud the EU court for the ruling.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091103/wl_nm/us_italy_court_crucifix_2I always wondered whether the kids were scared of crucifixes. I was shocked to see Jesus in full blood and in full size in many Italian cities.

Speaking of kids being scared of religious iconography (off-topic, I know), last year I took my three-year-old to my parents' evangelical Christian church for Christmas Eve service. The church had no child care on Christmas Eve, but we went to the early service because it was supposed to be family-friendly: more music and carol-singing, children's sermon, shorter grown-up sermon.

So all the children were invited to the front of the sanctuary to sit down with the pastor and have their little sermon. Pastor starts asking the kids why we celebrate Christmas. Turns out, we celebrate Christmas because Jesus is going to die on the cross at Easter for our sins. This is what my three-year-old has to listen to.

What's worse, near the spot where the kids were sitting, a display was set up with a wooden cross (empty, these are Protestants) and a cradle directly in front of it.

So my (normally calm) daughter gets hysterical at the end of the service. She starts screaming, "Mommy! I don't WANT baby Jesus to DIE!!!" Obviously, she thinks that baby Jesus is going to be nailed to that cross straight out of his cradle, at the age of around four months.

I don't think we'll be taking her to the service this year.

If I can hear any noise coming from these loudspeakers than they are toooooo loud...

Grrrrr, the Universe actually, not just the planet.... Some peeps are so dense, so dense, there is a big bang waiting to happen any moment.

Really don't mind if you sit this one out.

My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT.

I may make you feel but I can…

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