Israel wants Berlin to finance two new warships

Blohm and Voss did build the Bismarck, so have a good track record in the area of warship building:)

A suggestion, since Israel wants some warships, maybe they could take a Yamato class Battleship design, increase it to four turrets from three for heavy shore bombardment and anti-piracy control. They could make it 5 metres broader and add some very heavy missle, heavier armour on the keel/topside, comand and control, replace 15cm guns with heavy missle and multiple clustered phalanx systems, add anti-submarine capacity, disaster management systems and a series of nuclear power reactors that can also act as a temporary nuclear power station. Then you will have ship capable of taking heavy punishment and also dishing it out. A series of small aircraft carriers, missle crusiers and destoyers would also be good as a compliment:)

Seriously if the German government wants to give shipyard buidlers work, it should design and build the largest cargo ships it can with the latest nuclear engines so as to cut down on greenhouse emissions and increase efficieny of transport of goods to and from the far east.

When the routes across the arctic start to open up over the next 20 years, there will be a corresponding increase of trade around the Artic circle. Germany should position its ship building industry to take full advantage of that.

Did I read that correctly, "give it to them, free"?

I'm sorry? Give the things away? Whatever is the reasoning behind that then?

Yes, "give them for free" ! Remember 1933-1945? Germany

should always be a strong supporter of Israel!

petenick, if you don't like Germans, what are you doing on this websit? Go to an Israelian site. I don't understand it, all of you who like to throw stones, probably live in glass houses!!!

petenick, if you remember 1933 I'm surprised you know how to use a computer. For the rest of us we live in the 21st century and know Germany has already paid for what it did. Israel isn't the holocaust country, its people from all over the world and has a smaller population ratio of Jews than some western nations have of Christians, so even if Germany still owed money, which it doesn't, why would it give it to Israel?

What a bargain! There's nothing like getting other countries to provide your weapons for free.

It's past time for Germans to get off their knees, stop smiling like a doughnut and tell them to get lost.

The least they could do is spend some American money for them.

Germans should give me some nice weapons and maybe a little cash on the side. After all, I'm of Scottish decent. I'm sure the Germanic tribes did something terrible to my ancestors in the past. Let me know where to forward my shipping address & bank routing numbers. Danke!

Giving any military hardware to Israel is foolhardy. There is no control over its use regardless of what they sign. That has been proven with US military hardware that Israel used against Lebanon in violation of its contract.

Billions of dollars continue to be shelled out to Israel and they have yet to be abide by any UN Resolutions concerning their occupation of Palestine. Why do they need warships? Who do they plan to attack next?

DarExc, NO amount of money or compensation can make up for how much the German Nazis plundered from Jews, as well as the millions who were murdered in labor and concentration camps. Nevertheless, it's still blood money, and German's should feel honored that the State of Israel considers Germany a friend....which in its heart of heart's it is not as you have just shown. Yours is the true feeling of the majority of Germans and unfortunately because of that, Jews and all foreigners in Germany live under the constant threat of another Holocaust.

It is past time for Germany to resist perpetual Israeli blackmail. Why is it that only in the case of Germany that guilt can be transferred from generation to genration? Continually providing military support to the criminal zionist regime is morally wrong.

Let Israel pay the market price if they are desperate for ships. Why should Germany pay the cost when the US could do it just as easily.

I am not really surprised that Israel makes outlandish demands like that. No one else has chutzpah like that. They will keep t whining and complaining til the end of time. Germany really needs to get a spine and say NO - loud and clear! Enough is enough. I don't know how much of a guilt trip has been laid on the newer generations but it must be considerable if this stuff is taken seriously. However, I have an idea that the banks, the educational system and the courts are pretty much controlled by you-know-who, which would make any opposition to their demands almost impossible, from what we've all seen in the past. How do young Germans feel about being continuously drained of their wealth? And, Petenick, move to Israel if you're not already there.

Why should the old Nazi's arm the new Nazi's. Maybe they should ask Germany to come and build concentration camps and death chambers for the Palestinians to be sent to. No country should send arms to Israel, especially Germany or the United States.

I have to admit, lot of hate in some of these posts.

And if you're so worried about the Palestinians, bring them to East Germany or put them on Usedom. You can live with the terrorists since they all come through Germany anyway.

WTF is that all about? Can I have a warship given to me too?

Are you Israeli?

Besides, I hear upkeep on those things is a royal bitch...

Kamionet, you should be sick to your stomach. To see a repeat of atrocities inflicted on the Jews now being inflicted upon the Palestinians by the Jews, should cause tears to flow. Nothing will erase the past. It happened. It's time to move on. Stop using guilt and intimidation as an excuse for the unlawful occupation of Palestine. Justifying acts of terror in the name of security with the intent of colonization is abominable. The Palestinians are held prisoner by a strong power with uncontrolled weapons of mass destruction. The greatest threat to world peace is the unresolved situation in Palestine/Israel. It is the root of terrorist activity.

Nothing new, Israel has never paid for Military hardware.

You're very wrong abemarch and you wouldn't have them as your next door neighbor with the threat of being bombed at any moment. You and Iran should get together. As far as moving on is concerned, never happen. No one will forget the names of Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, Treblinka, Majdanek, Bergen-Belsen and the millions of innocent children who were gassed and burned. And the silence of the Pope. See Schindler's list again. Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel is not the agressor. When the Arab world recognizes Israel as normal country like Germany with all its problems, then there will be peace. If you think Israel enjoys the situation as it is now, the same way as Hitler's Willing Executioner's you are sadly mistaken. That is the root of Terrorism in all its forms. No one wants to see a Jewish State.

Just love the European arguments above. It's long past time to stop the WW II guilt game. Just look at the unfair blame for the causes of 1st World War and the unjust settlements, when all were guilty. We see a series of long running continental conflicts starting before the Romans, thru the Hundred Years War, the Napoleonic and to the last century. Many collaborated, turned a blind eye, or took advantage of the Holocaust. It is right and just to support Israeli defense and ALL major European powers should participate

JeffZ, I am an American citizen with Polish Jewish roots who was born in Munich. The Deutsche Bank can spend some of the money it has stolen from the German people on the upkeep of the boats.

Kamionet,

your comment: "as far as moving on is concerned, never happen." That is precisely the problem. Forgiveness is not part of the Jewish religion. Hate begets hate. Retaliation begets retaliation. How can there be peace when no one is willing to forgive or forget?

Israel has been getting free german weapons for decades, this isnt anything "unnormal". It just showes Israel cant sustain itself. It has to infiltrate western societies to survive.

Oh yes. Just blame Israel for everything. No, the Romans didn't burn down Jerusalem and scatter the Jewish nation. Oh no, there was no Spanish Inquisition, the Europeans have ALWAYS treated the Jews with dignity and respect. There were no pograms in Russia or Poland. There were no French(and Dutch, Polish, Ukrainian, Romanian, etc) collabarators who lept at the chance to steal when the Nazi's started the Holocaust. No, it was the Chinese who exported the Africans to the Americas. Enough already.

As a member of a previously dominated and persecuted group I fully understand the feelings of oppression and determination "to never" let it happen again. Don't believe me. Ask any proud Greek about Turkish occupation for 400 years and get ready to see a calm, wise and reasonable person turn almost insane. Sorry, it will be two more generations before Europeans have a right to criticize Israel. There would have been no Holocaust, and therefore no Israel, had Britain and France stood firm in time. There would have been no Holocaust if there had been courage instead of fecklessness. The children often have to pay for the sins of the parents. What would you do if you were surrounded by enemies? Well, documented European history over the last 2000 years tells the answer time after time.

"Major B", Europeans don't need a "right" to criticize Israel, and you're no one to declare whether they have a right to do so or not. F*ck you and the horse you rode in on.

Bonkers. With respect to the past (I am British, and served my country), it seems that they are using the guilt card again for their own financial gain and agree with Fitnessgirl as blackmail and extortion. If they want them, build them and LEASE it to them, or provide support to the workers via special finance agreement for civilian vessels. Germany GIVING warships to Isreal send a negative symbolic message to the world.

Well, I do have an innovative idea: we pay for these ships and keep them for ourselves. Israel and its neighbourhood don't exactly seem to suffer from a lack of arms as it is. Giving away arms doesn't seem to do much good anyway. Poland received huge amounts of German weapons and the relations with Warsaw aren't exactly splendid. Israel received free U-Boats and the result seems that they are only coming back for more handouts while giving the international community the finger at the same time.

To those that would deny Israel anything they want...

You're just being anti-Semitic.

They are god's chosen people.

Let them do what they want.

*sarcasm off

Did you fall for that^^?, neither did I...

Israel isn't a country that wants everything handed to it on a plate, it is a country that has everything there on the plate already. The dish is called "Carte Blanche".

I suppose speaking against Israel, or even saying "No" is again being "anti-Semitic".

I'm hoping the German administration see's the light, and gives a resounding middle-finger erm...A Resounding NO to this request, and future ones as well...

If the Government of Israel hasn't noticed lately, we are in a Global Recession at the moment.

The Good German People deserve any extra benefits its Own Government might be able to afford First...

Assisting Israel with equipment that will undoubtedly kill other people falls a bit farther down the list of priorities for the German taxpayer's Euro and Will.

I suggest We(the German tax payers) instead re-invest that money back into the German people, where it belongs and will do the most Good...

Have a nice day all :-)

That's what I call "Free Trade" - ONE WAY only.

Arms deals are notoriously complicated. Google:

Export-Led Corruption: The European Union, Oil, Arms and Infrastructure Projects

for example. I doubt these ships will be "free" in the true sense.

As a thought, I have taught my sons that all of us humans have the capacity (as the Bible teaches) for sin and that the current generation of Germans cannot be held accountable for the sins of their (grand) fathers. Especially when in the current era so many Germans have totally rejected the Nazi model. My sons do not equate "Germans" with "Nazis" (as they ought not to) except in that a specific generation of Germans chose the wrong path and we must be on guard here in North America that we in our generation don't take those same paths.....

Maybe I can get the Germans to build me a yacht for free. All this talk about remember WWII is fine and should never be forgotten but the time for Germany to compensate Isreal is long since past. Let's face it, most particpents of WWII have ceased to exist. The American Indians haven't received near the retrobution from America as Israel has from Germany.

Germany should do it but build it out of wood.

@major b

"No, it was the Chinese who exported the Africans to the Americas."

Actually the majority of European slave traders were jews. Look it up!

Yep, virulent anti-semitism is alive and well -- but intelligent discussion isn't. Just knew there would be some neanderthals who would keep waving their clubs in the air and "blaming the Jews" for every problem. Yes, the the Jewish traders who dominated shipping companies of the colonial powers -- geez. New theory: "jew hating" has evolved and is now in the DNA of the children. Hope the German government and people stand firm and "Never Again" let the troglodytes gain influence.

this makes me sick. why is the debate here about the fact that the ships will be given for free. israel is an appalling nation that kills innoent people. f%@k that. f@%k israel. f&%k war.

Germans are nice and hard working people, I regret this happens, actually I don't understand how is this accepted at high levels, is there probably something we common people don't understand?

The article is clear, but anyway it is well-known that Germany pays compensation indefinitely to Israel based on ethical ambiguous norms. Although I have quite a few German friends, I don't know if they or the majority perceive the prejudice, I'm pretty embarrassed to ask them about such matters, it's their business in the end, but I am sad about all this situation :(.

"There's no free lunch !" Everything has to be paid for one way or another !

Would the german government give the same to the Palestinians if they'd ask for it !? In it's role as the new 21st century Germany, the peace-promoting and worldly nation as it wants to be considered in the world, it is anyway absolutely irresponsible even to consider of sending arms of any kind to that part of the world where for 3/4 of a century the biggest threat to world-peace has been growing and growing. But as a lot of people know anyway, hippocracy is the german politicians national atitude when it comes to middle east politics, or have they simply just lost their balls !? What part of NO don't you understand, you "Israelites" !?!?

Apart from the Chutzpa there's really nothing admirable in the above. If Germany wants to fund their shipbuilding industry why not build something else (eg. icebreaking submersible cruiseships) to exacting specifications.

And while we are speaking about the international community as if it were a cohesive body with common aims and mutual respect ... Wooden boats perdido - sheesh - who is going to row them? Got a spare city of Helots to crew your ships?

I might be wrong (since the use of the English language by The Local is often somewhat suspect), but does it not mean that the Israelis will pay for the corvettes but not finance them, i.e. no upfront payment or down payment or deposit or other interest payments on the financing?

Whereupon the German government takes a financial risk in initially funding the shipyard but that they will/should get the dosh / some of the dosh from the Israelis in the end.

According to the article the German tax payer is already paying for two submarines for Israel valued at 500m euro...so why not a bunch of warships as well?

Reading the original in German, it certainly appears that Israel wants 2 corvettes and a submarine for free. They already have an order for submarines which are being built in Kiel and for which Germany is bearing 2/3 of the cost (333 of 500 mil ?).

Is it just me or are they just trying to milk this whole holocaust thing for as long as they can. Germany has already paid reparations. Hopefully the German government says no and tells them to take a hike.

Why doesn't Israel just sell off a couple of its nuclear weapons to Iran, and buy the warships with the profit?

I don't understand the logic of Israel getting the ships for free. If you ordered a delivery of oranges or anything else that is produced in Israel I doubt very much that you could get even a discount let alone something free.

Giving away the warships can't really be described as keeping the shipyards 'in business'. If they don't have serious customers with ready money who actually want to buy the things then they must be obsolete or too expensive. Can't imagine anything made in Germany would be inferior quality so it must be one or both of the other two.

In the wake of Israel giving the international community the middle finger in response to criticism of the Israeli atrocities in Gaza, not to mention Israel's illegal 10 year siege of Gaza, why on Earth would Germany want to supply Israel with still more weaponry? Why would it do so even for money, much less for free??!

The message to the world, at this late date, will certainly not be that Germany is still feeling guilty about WWII. It will look more like the fond nurturing of a country that has finally learned to turn its eternal victimhood into eager imitation of its erst-while persecutor. It will begin to blur the difference between Germany of the past and Germany of the present. Does Germany really want to do that?

And while you're at it. why doesn't 'Berlin' give them some sailors to work on the ship(s) so they can do the dirty work too.

Germany's obligations to Israel is friendship and friends tell friends when they are doing wrong. They don't give the friend a gun to help them kill innocent people. Why would Germany help jews kill people as an atonement for loosing WWII. It makes no sense. One of the very last things Schroder did before leaving office was give Israel a nuke capable submarine.

Why would Germany want to promote war by giving a weapon of mass destruction?

Germany for once, must stand up and say no. Even to Israel.

Weapons like these don't promote peace but occupation and death. No I say, to weapon sales (or gifts) from any country period.

Exactly. Especially considering they are perpetrating their own mini-holocaust against the previous inhabitants of the land with said weapons.

It's called Subvention. It keeps shipbuilders off the streets. Korea has done a sterling job at cornering the market for shipbuilding. Some people would say they've done it by holding their currency low against others and so under-cutting the competition, as they have done in other market sectors.

So basically I would be paying my taxes to give weapons to Israel? No thank you.

The plot thickens - Thyssenkrupp is selling 80% of said shipyard, Blohm & Voss to Abu Dhabi.

http://lloydslist.com/ll/news/thyssenkrupp-to-sell-blohmvoss-shipyard/20017708314.htm

What does it all mean really?

I'm sure The Local can explain.

Give it a try, and tell us what the outcome of the request is. As JeffZ posted earlier upkeep & cost of consumables is a royal bitch.. And reinforced concert, great material for submarines... They (Israel) must.They should but the reality is that will not happen in our life time.

No, they don't pay. It has happened before.

IIRC Germany gave them 2 brand spanking new

submarines for blow.

It's called war guilt.

And we all know that there's no better way to combat war guilt than giving someone else weapons so they can fight more wars.

Shouldn't they take the money out of the church tax?

@Pas I do not think that you want to get the church involved in this, but then maybe you do?

Seems a fairer place than the general taxes of the nation? Really they should politely tell them to search alternative funding.

They should send them over there, and then Angela Merkel could jump out of one of them stark bollock naked like that chick in the Steven Seagal movie.

That'd teach em, cheeky idiots.

They should give those ships to the Palestinians not the Israelis.

Give ART instead of battleships. That could be Germany's responce!

If Germany needs to give anything.

You could cover those operating costs by going into the piracy business. That seems to be a booming business right now. Alternatively you could squeeze some "protection money" out of those pirates.

Here's an article.

debka.com

Germany is contributing 500 million euros toward the two Dolphin submarines already on order for the Israeli Navy.

Half a billion for two submarines on the German taxpayer. And now those stealth corvettes,

no wonder they try to keep a low profile with the German public.

I thought Israel was already getting $bns of protection money from the US?

That is exactly my opinion too... but everytime I expressed the idea to my German girlfriend she always said I was antisemitic, which I don't think I am at all.

Bullshit. Criticism of Israeli or Jewish policy or actions != hatred of Jews. Is she anti-Clapoti if she criticises something you've done?

I know that I am not anti-semitic... but it seems like there's a over political correctness here sometimes... especially when Jewish people are the subject of criticism.

Not just here, but in the US too, the Israelis have done an amazing job at making any level of criticism a big social no-no.

Yeah their PR is awesome, they get 2.5 billion a year from us and they don't even have war guilt to hold over our heads.

I wish I was in on this game earlier...I only found out I was part Jew last year. I need to learn how to milk this.

Step one move to Germany.

But of course the reason that the Arabs hate us and want to blow themselves up near us is because they hate our freedom.

I don't call it anti-semitic I call it common sense. They still hold a grudge to this day, over a man who was crazy and technically wasn't even German. The worst part is Germany is scared to say no due to the fact that they could be called a Nazi country if they said no. I cant wait until the day where German's and Germany grow a back bone and basically tell them to off. But its funny, they can be pissed off about something that happened over 50 years ago, and only lasted 6 years, yet they find it OK to persecute the Palestinians for over 50 years now. Anyone see Israel as nothing but a big group of hypocrites?

edit: I say lets start a donation fund for the Palestinians, so that they can fight back against Israel!

If what you say is true, then you need to take your ass back home to wherever it is you came from. It's people like you that make me not want to be friends with Jewish people, call me racist, call me anti-semitic, call it what you want to call it but I view it as people wanting to abuse the system for all its worth, and make people feel guilty and sympathetic for what had happened.

Germany gives Israel a couple of boats - big deal. France helped Israel develop nuclear bombs!

Comments that attempt to minimize the Holocuast as something that "...only lasted 6 years" show why we still must educate people about it.

It is hypocritical to crticize Israel but not criticize the Palestinians for terrorism.

As for your planned donation fund, you might want to be careful that it does not get used to support terrorism.

You called it buddy!

Sure, one of the parties involved is only an aggressive military power on a mission of land robbery, armed to the teeth with modern military hardware, whereas the other party has rifles and some primitive rockets. It is important to criticize them in an equal way....

The very idea that a country that is accused of committing serious war crimes and shielding the perpetrators is asking for more free weapons is unbelievable.

You forgot to mention the 'mission' of the other party...Who isn't accused of warcrimes these days?

Who isn't accused of war crimes these days? How cute. Accused of committing war crimes by a commission led by one of the world´s most renowned jurists? Not that many. Anyway, I am not aware of any other war criminals asking for free war ships. Perhaps you could point out the others who are asking for that kind of freebies?

How many are accused by such a high profile commission and how many are not? And as to who's asking for freebies - Possibly everyone who actually has a chance to get them...

Uh you do realise that Arabs actually get to vote in Israel and have tons of other rights that they don't have.... anywhere else in the Middle East.

Sure they should pay for their killer toys like everyone else - but that whole war crime shtuff - is a bit of kettle and pot.

'Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' or 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'. Guess it all comes down to which philosophy you follow?

Totally agree with you Pas , both sides need to move from an Old Testament perspective of eye for an eye to a New Testament one of "Turn the other cheek".

While I think we TTers would probably all agree that Israel should pay for the ships itself, let's not ignore why they want them- the Syrian government and a few other countries and terrorist groups would love to kill all Israeli Jews if they were able to.

Oblomov, IIRC, the lawyer and UN official you refer to is known as being anti-Israel, and the same report also accused Hamas of war crimes. Israel doesn't only have to defend itself from Palestinian terrorism, it also has to defend itself from Hezbollah, Syria and others which do have strong conventional arsenals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Navy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_navy

I think they already outnumber the Syrian Navy enough that they don't need to go begging for Hartz IV ships.

Plus their illegal nukes work as a good deterrant for a conventional attack.

Exactly although rumor has it that there is a few battleships mothballed off the Texas and Washington coast. I say lets cut a deal. ISixteen inch guns can be a huge detterent and maybe we can get back that money Reagan spent to "upgrade" them in the 80s. Lebanon already knows what they can do.

In constrast to Israel, who would love to kill Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese etc, and who do have the means, and oh, yeh, they do actually kill them.Could that be because Israel are war mongers and perpetrate war crimes?Let's talk about that when we're giving Hamas some war ships.

It is simply ridiculous to claim this (that they love to kill them and that their enemies don't have the means) especially in light of strong evidence to the contrary- the large Arab minority that resides in Israel as citizens, terrorist actions by Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups, the Hamas Charter, etc. Unfortunately, the terorrists do have the ability to kill Israelis, and they are constantly trying to do so- no one should pretend they don't or ignore that they do. What do you call Hamas and others attacking Israel then?

Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorism/war crimes. I certainly hope you are NOT suggesting that they should not defend themselves against terrorist groups dedicated to the destruction of the country, and it is disgraceful that you ignore terrorism directed at Israelis and the Israeli need to defend themselves against these ongoing efforts.

I would suggest yearly wars with neighbours where thousands are slaughtered in response to minor infractions by small factions from the opposing side as evidence to trump all your evidence.Frankly, I care little about Hamas in this regard. Their attacks against Israel are so insignificant in comparison to the crimes that Israel have perpetrated against the other people of the region. I'm not goign to get into this argument again on this thread though. Giving war criminals more weapons, when they already have plenty enough to continue their war crimes is immoral.

Bad conclusions have bad premises, and in this case you fail to understand the seriousness of the terrorist actions of Hamas and others- attacks such as suicide bombings are anything but "minor infractions". Even so, you also seem to think that Isarel has no legitimate right to defend itself against the constant attempts made to attack it- and that is simply not a reasonable position. If there were no attacks on Israel, Israel would have no need to take action to defend its citizens. Failing to criticize those who attack Israel send the message that such attacks, which are war crimes, are justified- they are certainly not.

Also, Hutcho, you seem curiously unconcerned with things like Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence.

If there were no attacks do you think they would also stop building new settlements?

Of course PAS. Just like when treaties were signed in the old west the native tribe had to no longer fear settlers encroaching their land. Yep the whole expansion thing was a sham. Native tribes made the whole thing up. Besides they got Oklahoma in the end...oh wait.

Pas, do you think that the Palestinians are justified in attacking Israel proper?

The attacks on Israel proper from Gaza have certainly continued after the settlers were withdrawn from there in 2005, so let's not pretend the settlements are why these anyhow illegal attempts to attack Israel continue. The settlements would be gone as part of a peace treaty, so my suggestion to the Palestinians would be to launch peace negotiations rather than attacking Israel.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Neither side could give a damn about the New Testament because it's only relevant for Christians.

The Jews are quite happy with just the Old Testament way of doing things and the Muslims are reading a totally different book.

Both sides are at fault and the world would be a better place if the earth opened up and swallowed the entire region whole.

Theology FAIL. The NT is relevant for everyone, the Jews & Muslims are wrong and will be sent to Hell on the day they stand in front of the Lord for judgement.

Do you think that it'd be justified if Palestinians carved out a piece of Texas for a homeland and told the people who were living on that land that it didn't belong to them any more? Do you suppose that the Texans would continue to remain peaceful whilst it was taking place and continue to pursue a policy of peaceful negotiation for decades without result? During this time of course, Russia would be arming the Palestianians to the teeth and it wouldn't be costing them anything...

Bring em on, we're better armed than the Palestinians.

And that was a message from our brothers of the Radical Christian Union of Judea.

Meaning that you're supporting the Palestinians in the Middle-East.

I don't support either, and I would like my tax dollars to follow this policy as well. I mean if you were born in Israel after the initial invasion I can't really blame you either, but I don't want to pay for you to quell your nation.

And we have Dairy Queens! MMM peanut butter parfait....

Sorry to let the truth interfere with a good bit of bullshit, but Israel is the World's 4th biggest arms exporter after France, Russia and America.

Not arguing about the truth of the statement that you quoted I don't quite understand how your point disproves the statement anyway. They might well be the worlds 4th largest exporters but that has nothing to do with them not paying for the military hardware they receive does it?

Seems like pretty good business sense getting something for free and then exporting it

Maybe they just want the warships to sell them to a 3rd party.

Not only do they not pay for the weapons but they can actually earn money from them by exporting (or re-using technologies embedded in it) to 3rd parties...... as they did with AWACS tech to China for example. And that isn't an exceptional case of how Israel takes imported tech and re-uses it to earn foreign cash.

That's not accurate:Israel also has a large defense industry of its own.

That news piece doesn't tell us who is paying for the shopping list. It calls the U-boats that Israel is getting for free a "purchase" as well, after all.It is really quite remarkable who is "anti-Israel" nowadays. Goldstone, a Jew himself, is anti-Israel, despite accusing Hamas of war crimes. J-Street, a new Jewish lobby in the US, is "anti-Israel". Turkey, long standing ally of Israel, is "anti-Israel". In fact, anyone who isn't a 150% supporter of Israel´s current government is "anti-Israel".

Israel doesn't need to worry, though. AIPAC-Hillary is riding to the rescue to approve Israel´s extreme positions. The Palestinians are supposed to engage in meaningless negotiations while Israel´s land grab is going on. With this kind of policy the "peace process" may be dead before Obama even gets his premature Nobel peace price.

Abbas was hung out to dry by American diplomacy. Abbas agreed to support a motion to postpone a discussion of the Goldstone report at the UN to facilitate talks with Israel. You can imagine how popular this made him with the Palestinians at home. What did he get in return? Hillary swanning around in Israel talking about unprecedented Israeli "concessions" that amount to absolutely nothing, as the land grab is continuing. As he bonus he got Lieberman denying any chance of a Palestinian state for the next years. What´s the message Israel is trying to send here? I hope it's not that only massive and professional violence Hezbollah style is getting results with Israel.

Remarkably enough a Jewish terrorist settler from the West bank has been arrested in Israel right now. It may only be a coincidence that he only was arrested after he started to target Jews while he got away with killing Palestinians before. However, it is quite telling that a violent US Jew with a Florida police record is allowed by Israel to immigrate and to settle in the West Bank while Arabs with an Israeli passport hope in vain to have their spouses from the West Bank join them in Israel.

its a no brainer to ANY ONE that the israelis and their numerous foes will go at it and send each other to heaven

its their destiny for sure.

Richard Goldstone: respected international Jurist, writes meticulous report on charges of war crimes during operation Cast Lead after fact finding mission, charging both the IDF and Hamas

Col. Kemp: makes hyperbolic and unprovable comments ("did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.") based on no investigation at all on behalf of a front organization of the American Jewish Committee.

No big surprise who has more credibility here.

A big F U Israel!!!

Wanna know what started all this terrorist in the first place?

Israel?s aggression toward the Palestinian people backed by the US, if ya piss of one Muslim you will piss them all off.

The last thing the worlds needs is a stronger Israeli military,

Fact!!!

Military industry is strategic for many countries and they will do a lot to keep it going - and Israeli / German history has nothing to do here, pure coincidence that this time these 2 countries are involved.

There is plenty of similar examples around the world.

I agree that they have plenty of weapons already.

But since Israel (like India and Pakistan) never signed up to the NPT I don't think their nukes violate any international law or treaty.

BlueC would you like to elaborate on the little nugget of wisdom?

PS. whenever people criticize a country they are criticizing the political system NOT the people and or religion.

Now there is a former senior Israeli minister who says too that Israel use the Holocaust to blackmail Germany. In 1997 Avrahm Burg as Chairmen of the Jewish Agency was at the forefront, together with the World Jewish Congress (WJC), an American-Jewish organizations the dispute with the Swiss banks, fighting for the return of the funds camped since World War II in Swiss bank accounts. To help the owners of unclaimed assets to gain their right, he pushed the Holocaust eloquently to the center of his argument. Now he speaks about Shoa business and Holocaust Industry.

Two years ago, appeared his book "To Defeat Hitler" in Hebrew - this month it apears in German ?Hitler besiegen, Warum Israel sich endlich vom Holocaust lösen muss? (Hitler's defeat, Why Israel must finally solve the Holocaust) by Avraham Burg (Campus Verlag, Frankfurt, 280 pages, 22.90 euros). The thesis, which represents former politicians in it, could not be cruel: Israel is shattered by the Holocaust trauma, fascist entity that has parallels with the pre-war Germany of the Weimar Republic: nationalistic, militaristic, and caught in a national trauma that prevents turns to the land without reservation of the future. As in Germany was the Treaty of Versailles, in his view the Holocaust in Israel. There, as here define one's own identity as opposed to others.

The Holocaust penetration of everyday life have devastating consequences, warns Avraham Burg. The memory of the Holocaust is an obstacle on the path to normalcy and peace in the Middle East. Burg argues that today Jews are neither persecuted nor oppressed, and that Israel is a powerful state. Nonetheless, he maintains, Israeli Jews have become fearful and self-pitying oppressors. When it?s attacked or criticized, he says, Israel acts like ?a small vulnerable country.? And it perpetuates a confrontational outlook based on the notion that Jews face a preternaturally hostile world. According to Burg, this posture is sustained by constant references to the Holocaust and by demonizing Israel?s enemies and exaggerating their power. Thus, everyone ?is a Nazi, everyone is an Arab, everyone hates us, the entire world is against us.? Moreover, for some Israeli politicians, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, says Burg, ?all enemies are super enemies.? Everything is compared to the Holocaust, and political manipulation has turned the Arabs into the spiritual brethren of the Nazis. Therefore, ?everything is allowed.?

Asked about the accusation that he delivers anti-Semitic arguments against Israel, he answers: Just because his words could be cited by anti-Semites, he was not willing to censor themselves.

I just want to mention that the translation of the book's title is actually: To defeat Hitler, Why Israel finally has to detach itself from the Holocaust.

Mariposa , how do you see his change of heart? People in Israel call him madman.

The serious critic German origin writer, [url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=890511]Tom Segev wrote in Haaretz "Avraham Burg drank aplenty from the Zionist well in his day. Now he is spitting into it, with one of the most spaced out and in-your-face books this country has seen in many years." He believs his new conversion stems from inferiority complex! He is not really German Jew. Burg admits sheepishly, "my father was born in Dresden, but one emanating from East Galicia "Oustjude". He, like most of the "Oustjude", was determined to be one of those cultural models, and his son wants to share in this heritage. "The late Gershom Schocken (Haaretz editor) once told me a terrible little secret. He came up to me and practically whispered in my ear: "In Yosef Burg's house, they spoke Yiddish." In other words, the man everyone perceived as a Yekke (German Jewish) par excellence was not really "one of us," but an Ostjude, pardon the expression, a Jew from Eastern Europe. This revelation of the family's inferior ancestry appears to be a childhood trauma that haunts Avraham Burg to this day."

Now he's telling every one in Germany that he's "German Jew" looking for his home he never knew ;-)

It reminds me the case of Daniel Goldhagen, at that time Henryk M. Broder wrote about him and his father: What a pleasure it must be for Erich Goldhagen, that Daniel has written a book that makes a sensation in Germany, German professors and famous writers compels opinions. No, it's not "Germanbashing" which is held here, but an attempt to find after 50 years of absence in connection with a culture from which the "German cultural institution" by force were dispatched to their deaths, a few lucky exile.

This connection can be produced only through the study of the Holocaust - the last stop of the German-Jewish history, but now also the starting point for a joint academic ventures: the only thing that unites Jews, German and existential.

I haven't read the book so I can't comment on it, I just wanted to point out that your translation is wrong because not everyone here speaks German well enough to see that 'sich lösen von' does not mean 'to solve'.

By the way, the English title of the book seems to be "The Holocaust Is Over; We Must Rise From its Ashes"

you can read an interview here

http://www.jungefreiheit.de/Single-News-Display.154+M5296879bc15.0.html