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US mag prints list of 'top 10 German generals'
Tank strategist Heinz Guderian, Photo: German Federal Archives

US mag prints list of 'top 10 German generals'

Published: 13 Nov 2012 11:25 GMT+01:00
Updated: 13 Nov 2012 11:25 GMT+01:00

"Only an American could ask a question like this," German newspaper Die Welt wrote on Tuesday, in response to a list published in US magazine The Quarterly Journal of Military History. The list was sparked by a reader's question about the greatest German military minds.

It was answered by historian Robert M. Citino, professor for European history at the University of North Texas, and author of the book The German Way of War. Though the list leaves out major Nazi military figures like Erwin Rommel, it does include Heinz Guderian, who is said to have developed modern German tank strategies during World War II, as well as two other Nazi generals.

Such lists are considered highly suspect in Germany. "The actions of a general in the German-Soviet war is today exclusively judged on how many civilians and prisoners of war were killed or starved to death within his remit," military historian Johannes Hürter said in Die Welt. "Against that, hardly anyone asks about their military performance."

Two of Hitler's generals who made it onto Citino's list - Erich von Lewinski, known as Manstein, and Eberhard von Mackensen - were later convicted of war crimes. Manstein was sentenced to 18 years in prison and Mackensen was sentenced to death, though both were eventually pardoned.

The list largely concentrates on Prussian-German military history, and includes two actual Prussian rulers - Frederick the Great himself and Frederick William I, King of Prussia from 1713 to his death in 1740.

The pre-Nazi-era generals on the list include Count Hellmuth von Moltke, Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, Prinz Friedrich Karl of Prussia, Friedrich Wilhelm von Seydlitz, and Georg Freiherr von Derfflinger. Except for Guderian, the entire list is made up of members of aristocratic Prussian families.

But the newspaper could not resist a swipe at the academic value of such exercises. "Such debates are limited to hobby historians in Germany," Die Welt wrote. "If you want to reduce war history to lists, you have to go to America."

The Local/bk

The Local (news@thelocal.de)

Your comments about this article

12:34 November 13, 2012 by bhess
Not a big deal. It's not to be pro-nazi. It's just something that history buffs all do. I know Guderian and Von Manstein are well respected for their military acumen.
12:45 November 13, 2012 by Onlythetruth
It is a bit of a "big deal". Most, if not all, of these generals were either guilty of war crimes themselves or supported a regime which they almost certainly knew was guilty of immense crimes. Contrary to the myth that the german army fought an honorable war it was complicit in many and varied heinous acts against the enemy, civilians and even its own soldiers.
13:30 November 13, 2012 by hanskarl
Lets get back to the original question asked and the answer that Die Welt has made into an issue. It is the usual Germanic news pablum attacking anything a simple question asked of a history magazine whose answer included three generals out of WW2. This was a question on military strategy not complicity. And true to form Die Welt turns it into a finger pointing swipe and again causes more national depression over something that ended how many decades in the past? Some editors need to get a life and move on.
15:15 November 13, 2012 by heathen
"Only an American could ask a question like this,"

Only a German would get their panties in a twist about this.
15:36 November 13, 2012 by Bulldawg82
Some people can't compartmentalize. We do this even today. Gen Petraeus and Gen Allen. Both are excellent generals and leaders of men & women. But, they get raked over the coals because they have affairs with younger (and willing) women. So now, their abilities as generals are disregarded. Yes, you can compartmentalize their abilities as a tactician from their inability to be humane to their enemies or the local populations. The article was strictly rating them for abilities as a battlefield tactician. If the article was rating them on their ability to be humane or as a person - then the list would have been different (or, at least, we hope it would).
17:02 November 13, 2012 by JWS
Those who win the war, write the history. Look at all the war hero's through out history, are there any that could not be accused of war crimes by someone?
18:03 November 13, 2012 by anaverageguy
Okay..... In Tennis Magazine..... would it be "uniquely" American to even ask and then answer the question: Which German General was the best tennis player? ..... (silly?) or which German General was the best at jigsaw puzzles? The question appeared in a magazine concerned with military history and was answered in that light.

Germans are just soooooooo German.
18:18 November 13, 2012 by jarkis
This go for you onlythetruth...

1 million plus missing German POW¦#39;s. How many were attributed to Dwight Eisenhower (Eisenhauer, German for "iron hewer") after he ordered that these Germans did not fall under the Geneva Rules, and were NOT TO BE FED, NOR GIVEN ANY WATER or medical attention. The Swiss Red Cross was NOT to inspect the camps, for under the "Disarmed Enemy Forces" classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction. LOOK IN THE MIRROR BEFORE CRITICISING OTHERS, FOR FEAR THAT WHAT YOUR ACTUALLY CRITICISING IS YOURSELF.

How can you be guilty of a crime that was specifically invented for your prosecution? Since when has losing a war been illegal? When have wars ever not been barbaric and cruel? When have officers and diplomats ever not followed their orders?

If the allies had lost the war, it would be Eisenhower, Churchill and Stalin with their heads in a noose and very rightly so.

Oh m, and just for the record , the allies committed more crimes than nazi germany and no body talks about it.. keep watching Hollywood movies...
18:46 November 13, 2012 by whotmewory
For jarkis:

You hit a good point on it being a crime to lose a war. Ever since the Confederate States of America lost its bid / war for independence [only 80 years after we did the same to Britain] American schools continue to teach our kids a load of trash about the CSA.

On the German generals, most American students of history I've known do not hold it against the Wehrmacht, The Luftwaffe, or the Kriegsmarine for enduring Hitler's tyranny; however, the Allgemeine and Waffen SS are another story altogether.
19:25 November 13, 2012 by ChrisRea
I think the issue raised by Die Welt and Mr. Hürter is not whether a Nazi general should be included in a top, but how can one compare military minds, as "The actions of a general in the German-Soviet war is today exclusively judged on how many civilians and prisoners of war were killed or starved to death within his remit".

I also find creating such a list has a highly questionable value from scientific point of view. It resembles the cheap press (ex. Bild) approach. Just like the name calling of some commentators above.
19:25 November 13, 2012 by Brasstacks11
Most Military Historians consider Herman Balck as one of the top commanders. Another was a Belgium volunteer who rose from private to commander(sorry I have forgotten his name) who was so well respected that Adolf personally decorated him with the Iron Cross with Clusters..I think! These two commanders have been overlooked many times.
19:58 November 13, 2012 by Repatriated
As ¦#39;heathen¦#39; mentioned above, the German press just can¦#39;t seem to untangle the knot they have in their panties regarding their WWII guilt feelings that seem to heading into perpetuity. Manstein and Mackensen may have been branded as war criminals by the Nuernberg tribunals , but let¦#39;s flip the coin and put some of the Russian generals on trial for the atrocities committed against the Sudeten and Prussian civilians trying to flee the ravages of the Red Army. Let¦#39;s see what dirt we can uncover on them; but we know that will never happen. Unfortunately atrocities are committed by all sides in every war ever since dawn of time, as I have personally witnessed in Vietnam. But as we also know, the victor writes the history books. As for painting all the members of the Waffen SS with a broad ¦quot;war criminal¦quot; brush, this is nothing more than a direct product out of Hollywood that the German press is gobbling up, hook, line and sinker.
19:58 November 13, 2012 by raandy
@ jarkis The only stat that is correct is the number of unaccounted. I would have to say in this case "you reap what you sow " aint it the truth !!!
20:45 November 13, 2012 by PNWDev
@onlythemisinformed

No, it is not a big deal because such an analysis is purely subjective; it cannot be tested, it cannot be repeated, and therefore the order of the list cannot be proven. So big deal.

As for the rest of your comments, you are a typical product of a system that selectively frames a narrative to reach a predetermined conclusion. I wonder, are you adopting the Obama version of the bin Laden raid or are you adopting the S.E.A.L. Team 6 version told in No Easy Day? Guess which version will go in the school books?

Go read Julius Epstiens investigative report about Operation Keelhaul.

@whotmewory

Yes, you are absolutely correct.

The American Civil War was not ignited as a result of slavery; it was all about the norths play for power and their desire to abolish states rights; a pre-war constitutional pillar. After the war the slaves had no freedom. If the war was about slavery, the debates on the subject listed in the congressional archives would have reflected this, but they are not there to the degree equal to the revisionist story being told today by the likes of Spielberg and other spin doctors.

Post-war America was a reflection of the pre-war debates. That environment shows us that the freedom and desires of the slaves, and their inclusion into society, were forgotten for another 100 years after the war; hardly the product of a reason.

Today, the union-authored narrative is that the south were a bunch of white, European immigrant racist Christians whose only desire in life was to enslave the black man. And most Americans are clueless about the freedoms lost from the result of that war despite the fact this war on the U.S. Constitution continues today.
21:10 November 13, 2012 by ovalle3.14
Only in Germany is this still a taboo.
21:46 November 13, 2012 by wood artist
The problem with any list, or for that matter any analysis, is always the same, because presumably it's based upon some "list" of criteria generated by the author and subject to his/her perspective. From a purely military perspective there were great generals in the German military during WWII. They took the tools they had and performed great military feats. They won victories and stalled defeats, often "rescuing" masses of troops in the process.

Is it fair to ignore the regime they worked for, or the civilian deaths that happened within their sphere of control? From an overall viewpoint, no. From a strictly military standpoint the answer is not as clear. Patton was a "great general" but he wasn't perfect. The famous "slapping incident" took him off the list. Was that fair? There is no absolute answer.

Napoleon was a great general, but he was terrible once he tried to be both that and head of state. As the ruler he did things no general would have attempted, and then tried to put on his "general hat" and make it happen. Given his experience, Waterloo should never have happened...but it's hard to say whether that was a mistake of generalship or leadership. Probably some of both.

My take, although I'm not necessarily agreeing with his list, is that people like Guderian deserve recognition for the innovations they made and their understanding of how warfare was changing. That doesn't make them "perfect human beings" nor does it justify the nature of the Nazi regime. That said, it is also very difficult to see them in that narrow viewpoint...because they were involved in other things too.

wa
21:48 November 13, 2012 by bugger
The only thing you are allowed to acknowledge in Germany on topics such as these is guilt. Everything else is instantly voided and overwritten by this guilt.
22:19 November 13, 2012 by avatar009
hi

My view about ww2 german top generals, i think the german had the quality and excat force to capture moscow, the problem was the spilit of the german command not to attack during the winter and short time they had. I think they where wright to delay of at least eigth weeks to take moscow, but defeating the soviet was another matter.Also the north africa operation it wasnt important at all the direction is all ways to east where the resource are.
23:46 November 13, 2012 by DOZ
Crap and now Germany is on the Human Rights Council. War is hell and all of it's factions should be discussed. Silence won't change what German's did.
00:23 November 14, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
@jarkis

Yes Stalin and Churchill are also war criminals. But one can not escape the fact these war criminals were provided their stage from German Nazi aggression. As for your statement that the allies committed more crimes than Nazi Germany I must ask for authority and some backed up facts. I can see where you are coming from regardin Stalin's activities post WWII but apart from that am very sceptical about your statement.
01:40 November 14, 2012 by wood artist
@Berlin fuer alles

I think a decent case could be made, depending upon where you draw some lines. Bomber Harris certainly meets the criteria considering his rationale for the attacks on Hamburg and Dresden. There might have been some military targets around Dresden, but that wasn't the area he targeted, and Hamburg was acknowledged to be just a pure terror attack on civilians.

Certainly the Russians had their share, despite what they might claim about what the Germans did. The occupation of Berlin was initially just one big war crime! Their treatment of the Poles and their actions in Eastern Europe at the end and immediately after the war easily qualify, and they continued to operate many of the German camps in their occupation zone, with the same guards just different inmates.

The Americans could similarly be charged if we examine the two nuclear drops, and the firebombing of Tokyo was certainly nothing but a terror attack. Some of the internal statements made in the American government, especially about considerations for post-war Germany sound very similar to the statements made regarding Poland...i.e. if a few million die that's just the way things are. While there might be an emotional rationale for saying such things, especially amongst some of the Jewish people in leadership positions, there is no legal basis for taking that approach.

It's pretty clear that had the charter for Nürnburg not specified that only Germans could be charged, the dock would have been represented by all the belligerents . What the Germans did or didn't do shouldn't have provided the basis for the actions of others.

wa
02:29 November 14, 2012 by Onlythetruth
for randy, PNWDev, & jarkis et al...

Yes, randy, sometimes you indeed reap what you sow and in WW2 the germans did in fact suffer the blowback of what they were only too happy to hand out to their victims when the german army was rampant. As to jarkis and PNWDev and their ilk it has never been worthwhile to try to reason with holocaust deniers. Some people don't want to know, others never learn and one should never waste his time with either.
04:49 November 14, 2012 by PNWDev
@truther

I point out your very limited understanding of WW II attrocities, as Wood Artist has demonstrated for you, and that makes me a holocaust denier? HaHaHaHaHa. What a simpleton response.

Attaching false labels to others does not strengthen your argument, but it did make me smile and roll my eyes.
05:13 November 14, 2012 by catjones
wood artist..people like you sit in your comfortable 21st century armchairs and pass judgement on the allies who fought against the unjustified aggression of the third Reich and equate the means of that aggression with those used to fight against it. Without germany, there would have been no world wars, no hamburg, no dresden. Had there been no Pearl Harbor, there would have been no Hiroshima.

The greatest german generals were the ones who knew the war was lost in December 1941, all the rest were tacticians.
07:17 November 14, 2012 by Anny One again
@wood artist - "I think a decent case could be made, depending upon where you draw some lines. Bomber Harris certainly meets the criteria considering his rationale for the attacks on Hamburg and Dresden"

You don`t need 18.400 US Bomber and 8 Mio tons of US Bombs and 13.500 British Bomber and 7500 Soviet Bomber (who dropped 30 million bombs on German targets with a density that sometimes reached 100­150 tons/ sq kilometer) to bomb Hamburg and Dresden.

Here have a look this page shows ca. 106 Cities,but it was more than 160 Cities.The following table shows some larger cities.Cities such as Regensburg is not mentioned because they in attacks on nearby military targets "only marginally" were affected. Such was, for example, in a western suburb of Regensburg, the Messerschmitt aircraft factory, which in 1943 struck deliberately by a heavy air attack.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftkrieg_im_Zweiten_Weltkrieg#Luftangriffe_gegen_St.C3.A4dte
08:42 November 14, 2012 by wood artist
@catjones

Let me suggest that your characterization of me is about as wrong as every other stereotypical statement of assumption, and considering the price my parents paid during WWII I'll just suggest that you're completely wrong and leave it at that.

Actually I don't really spend too much time in a chair beyond my writing work, and I'd suggest that the time I spent in SE Asia gives me a bit of a perspective on warfare up close. We could "argue" as to how WWII started, and for my part I'd place at least part of the blame on the Versaille treaty. However, that's not really the point.

War is ugly, but there are, supposedly, some rules. I'm not arguing that WWII wasn't started by Germany and Japan. I am, however, stating that it's pretty clear some decisions made by the "allies" during that war are inconsistent with the principles they supposedly supported.

I agree that many German military men knew that success was unlikely or impossible early in the war. I struggle with the idea that they felt their oath to Hitler outweighed the truths they knew, but it is a culture I don't pretend to completely understand. However, that said, the allies also failed to respond when some tried to find a way to end things. In short, both sides screwed up.

I would also suggest, using your final statement, that Generals are best judged by their military actions, and on that basis there were some very good ones. If you want them to become political then that's a different measure, and has little to do with being a General.

In short, I put the actions of the allies against the same measure they used upon the Germans, and they were found wanting. If it was a war crime when the Germans did it, proper justice would say that anyone guilty of doing the same thing is equally guilty, even if it was somehow "justified."

@Anny One again

I'm not trying to make absolute statements. My own opinion shouldn't automatically be made the measure for everyone else. I'll stand by what I said...that allied actions can be seen as meeting the criteria applied to the Germans at Nürnburg. Bomber Harris (as an example) would have difficulty defending Dresden (just one example) when confronted with the criteria used to convict Göring.

wa
09:22 November 14, 2012 by Anny One again
@jJarkis

But what about the Bodo League Massaker?

In 1950, just before the outbreak of the Korean War, the first president of South Korea, Syngman Rhee, had about 30,000 alleged communists imprisoned in his jails; he also had about 300,000 suspected sympathizers or his political opponents enrolled in an official "re-education" movement known as the Bodo League.Kim Il-sung's communist army attacked from the North in June 1950, starting the Korean War.

South Korean forces and anti communist groups executed the alleged communist prisoners, along with the Bodo League members without any trials.The Allied US official documents show American officers witnessed and photographed the massacre.There were also British and Australian witnesses.

At least 100,000 people were executed on suspicion of supporting communism,others estimate 200,000 killings.

The massacre was wrongly blamed on the communists for decades.Or what about"The Jeju Uprising" was a revolt on Jeju island off the south coast of the Korean Peninsula, beginning on April 3, 1948.

Between 14,000 and 60,000 individuals were killed in fighting or execution between various factions on the island. The brutal suppression of this rebellion by the South Korean army resulted in tens of thousands of deaths, the destruction of many villages on the island, and sparking rebellions on the Korean mainland. The rebellion, which included the mutiny of several hundred members of the South Korean 11th Constabulary Regiment, lasted until May 1949, although small isolated pockets of fighting continued into 1953.Many residents of Jeju escaped from the massacre to Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

South Korea's President Rhee Syng-man provoked the War with the North and was never brought to a tribunal.History is written quiet often a little bit strange.

@wood artist

I understand but many people think Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have more casualties and destruction than the bombing in Germany.Because many named just two or three Cities in Germany.Like many Germans too btw.

And no iam really not a Nazi sympathizer.
10:05 November 14, 2012 by raandy
How can any reasonably educated and intelligent person deny the Holocaust? Atrocities and wars go together, I know of no armed conflict where there were none,however when a National Government supports and encourages such actions this makes it different.

My wife's Grandfather once showed me a picture of himself in his uniform with a hacken kreuz around his arm,when I asked him how he felt about the holocaust,he answered "It never happened it was communist propaganda"
10:32 November 14, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Thats exactly the point raandy, war is brutal by its nature but the germans supported a government that had institutionalized atrocity. And of course they got exactly what they deserved, a government that victimized its own army and civilians as well as the enemy. Its too bad Harris didn't have the bomb to use earlier in the war. An obliterated Berlin would have saved millions of allied (and german) lives.
11:14 November 14, 2012 by belladons
General Erin Rommel and most Prussian Generals have a place in my heart. They truly had passion for a free and powerful Germany. General Rommel, I read much about him and I can truly say, ¦quot;He would be a great General in todays military.¦quot; He has a place in my heart.
11:16 November 14, 2012 by Anny One again
@Onlythetruth

Great Britain and Edward Robert Lytton Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Earl of Lytton,was responsible for the Death of ca.6.1mio-10.3mio people in India ca.50 Years befor Hitler came in Power. Just alone in India your Empire starve ca.50 mio woman,children & men to Death.thats nearly the same number like the whole 2.WW --Google it :

wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule

wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

Even Churchill was responsible for the Death of 6-7mio People between 1942-1945

www.countercurrents.org/polya130611.html

Britain has invaded all but 22 countries in the world in its long and colourful history, new research has found. And the nationalistic Telegraph and his Readers are proud of it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

A little bit different are the other former colonial powers.Nobody like to speak about it.Like Portugal,Spain,Belgium,Netherlands,France,Italiy, or their dictatorships and their atrocities before and after Hitler until in the seventies.like Greece,Portugal,Spain or the Eastblock Countries.

Where is the moral responsibility and reprocessing of these countries, for example?
12:35 November 14, 2012 by bhess
This list isn't about morality or what war crimes they may or may not have committed. It's just about military prowess.

In that Guderian and Von Manstein deserve a place. Guderain took the lessons from Lidell-Hart and Fuller and put them to practice. Von Manstein planned the invasion of France and led a successful retreat from Sevastopol. Even their allied general contemporaries admired them for their generalship. You can do that without advocating their crimes.

Personally I'm glad the Germans were stopped and have no illusions about the treatment of people under their charge. But as I said before this is just a list made 67 years after the fact by a historian as more of a intellectual exercise than anything. Top 10 lists are big with historians and history buffs.
13:04 November 14, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Congratulations for trying to change the subject Anny One again but the truth is that in WW2 the germans "sowed the wind and then reaped the whirlwind". Enumerating real and imagined atrocities of colonial powers, of which germany was one I might add, has nothing to do with the horrendous way the germans behaved in the last great war as a matter of * government and public policy *. If ever there was an example of karma coming back to haunt you germany was lucky in the extreme that it only suffered the amount that it did. And even then some people, as evidenced on this forum, haven't learned anything. Pehaps it will come to another smackdown again should folks like the NPD have their way. That would be tragic.
19:00 November 14, 2012 by Anny One again
@Onlythetruth

I would never try to defend Hitlers or his Regimes atrocities,he was a Massmurder without a shadow of a doubt.

But read your Text in #29 again for example especially-"a government that victimized its own army and civilians as well as the enemy."-This is exactly what never happend in Germany,they debate hypotetic questions like"Is it allowed to mourn about lost family members?".You have to remember its very hard to find a any Family wich has not lost minimum one Family member in the WW2,but you can forget that,most of the germans don`t recollect that anymore.

And "a government that victimized its own army as well as the enemy."is one of your daily bullshixx.

But what about the british atrocities in Kenia? Prisoners were questioned with the help of ¦quot;slicing off ears, boring holes in eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit cigarettes.¦quot;British soldiers used a ¦quot;metal castrating instrument¦quot; to cut off testicles and fingers. ¦quot;By the time I cut his balls off,¦quot; one settler boasted, ¦quot;he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket¦quot;.The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone they liked ¦quot;provided they were black¦quot;.Elkins¦#39;s evidence suggests that over 100,000 Kikuyu were either killed by the British or died of disease and starvation in the camps.

http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/

Remembering the british Fallen is ok,but what about these untold stories? Hard to believe that we see a Spielberg Movie about it in the near Future?
02:02 November 15, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Of course the Nazi's had the greatest respect for everyone including the lowly german foot soldier. Except when they didn't.

Visions of Victory" by Gerhard Weinberg describes how the nazis killed numerous handicapped veterans of WWI and a start had been made on WW2 veterans as well. The Kindly Ones by Jonathan Little also describes how the germans executed their amputee soldiers because they could be no further use. In the book is a conversation between the main character and an army sergeant who was discussing a carefully hidden fact, that the 'gas vans' used to execute Jews and others were now also secretly being used to 'get rid of' crippled soldiers who presented a drain on German resources. See also William Shirer's The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich for details of the Reich's cavalier treatment of its soldiers in the field.

All vicious lies no doubt. : - 0

Were the brits model imperialists? Nope. Did they have extermination of a whole people as official policy? Nope. And you wonder why the nazi's caught Spielberg attention?
02:13 November 15, 2012 by txjohn50
It's a list of the 'greatest' generals of your country. That denotes leaders who were effective militarily. Nothing immoral about a list. A person can rank the top 10 confederate generals - has nothing to do with slavery, it's about success in battle. Lincoln offered Robert E. Lee leadership of the US Army when war broke out, so the commanding general of the enemy has to be ranked as one of his 'favorites.' I'm surprised Rommel didn't make it - his own theories were studied by one of the top us generals of all time (and my favorite), George Patton. Too many Germans are too worried about what the world thinks of them. We have the same problem in the US. Your history is what you were, but you are now who you are. I don't understand the controversy.
04:13 November 15, 2012 by Anny One again
"Were the brits model imperialists? Nope."Are you kidding me?

"Did they have extermination of a whole people as official policy? Nope."

The Nazis never had an "official policy of extermination",it was hidden and inofficial like the british policy.And you wonder why the nazi's caught Spielberg attention? I never wondered, on the contrary I understand his standpoint very well.On the other hand,i like the US Presidents first task in the White House,to throw Churchills bust out.

New evidence of British colonial atrocities has not changed Brits national ability to disregard them.Deny the British empire's crimes? No, they ignore them.

Lord Horatio Herbert Kitchener decided that "float like wild animals in cages so you can catch them" Boers.He fenced the Boer territories with a total of 6000 miles of barbed wire, and the families of the interned Boers fighting in hastily constructed camps.118,000 white women, children and old men and 48,000 black servants of the Boers had the Lord in 1901 block such "concentration camps", in which people, defenseless the winter cold and hunger exposed died en masse.At least 18,000 Boers, including one-third children, plus 13,000 Colored died in the camps. Kitchener, who had never even entered a concentration camp, could not understand the fuss about it and recommended that the Boers question definitively by deportation of prisoners to release about to Madagascar. Where Hitler's expert would actually even deport the Jews.

Academic claims Maori holocaust A Taranaki Maori academic has compared colonisation of New Zealand to a holocaust.The Canadian Holocaust.The Untold Story of the Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples by Church and State in Canada.Aboriginal Holocaust in Tasmania + Australia and so on.

So don`t tell me something about;"Were the brits model imperialists?Did they have extermination of a whole people as official policy?
15:20 November 15, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Love it Anny One again. We need new newspaper headlines: Allied Countries In World War 2 Just As Evil As Nazis! :-) Sorry but your attempt silly and factious attempt at moral equivalence doesn't and never did wash. Try listing all the crap the germans were guilty of visiting on their own colonies if you want to enlighten us on this subject.
19:05 November 15, 2012 by Leo Strauss
They forgot Ernst von Bauer. :(
20:13 November 15, 2012 by Anny One again
@Onlythebritishtruth

No,you don`t love it.You you feel uncomfortable with such stories.And fear for the reputation and prestige of Great Britain.

And yes there are many similarities to the Nazis.Thank God took the Nazi era only 12 years, while the British era lasted 300 years, and thank God, came down with the WW2.The various territories were distributed over the entire earth. A mainstay of the British colonial policy was to foment conflicts between various ethnic groups in order to prevent them from rebelling against the colonial power.That was the recipe for how little Britain was able to maintain control over all the years.

In Britain, for example,2000 boxes are stored with secret historical documents.The files were nearly 50 years hiding in the MI6 Villa Hanslope Park in Buckinghamshire.The "Times" comes after the first inspection of the files to the conclusion that the Mau Mau rebellion was suppressed not only by suspending the rule of law, but also with "sadism". In telegrams mentioned that prisoners were burned alive. The newspaper is reminded of the methods of torture and mass executions in the French colony of Algeria.Thus, a secret document storage is not only invaluable for Historians.It could also determine the national picture of the last days of the British Empire again.

Prime minister Cameron's predecessor Gordon Brown says in South Africa some years ago,the days when Britain had to apologize for its colonial history are over.It is up to the British government to show how open they deal with the inglorious chapters of the colonial era.On the other side you can see what happens to Germany,as the atrocities were published.but the excitement would be quite limited.No Photos,no Filmdocuments etc.But who knows how many documents of atrocities still lie in other archives of various countries, or destroyed.German archives were confiscated, and often evaluated first and only by the victors for years.
20:59 November 15, 2012 by Englishted
@Anny One again,

Please enlighten me as to where you come from and where you abide to have such a one eyed assessment of the British ?,

Particularly as this article was about a American military history magazine top ten German generals .
00:34 November 16, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Anny One again

I'm not british you fool. I'm irish, a much different thing in case you don't know. Your ancient stories of British misbehavior are not in the least uncomfortable for me, its you thats embarrassing yourself.

Its absolutely clear that you are either a nazi or unstable or both. Don't try to distract us with silly fabrications about the British. Amuse us with more stories about how the germans are the same as everyone else because everybody is equally evil.
02:26 November 16, 2012 by Anny One again
@ Englishted

Well, where I come rather, what do you think?

The question should be,"where you abide to have such a one eyed assessment of the Germans?"

I do not understand on the one hand, the British obsession with the World Wars.The constant taunts against Germany in the British Media, the success and the negative effect can be seen by the reader comments very well.Every day in the British Television is a Documentary about the World Wars, while nobody shows anything about the British Colonial before and after WWII.

Even the School Textbooks provide inadequate Articles or rare Information about their own Past.Also for many brit.People post War and current economic Problems is lying in WWII.But what is the alternative?Holding the Colonial Status and let others keep working?

It obviously lacks the British Psyche a complete sense of wrongdoing and fighting the Nazis was in a kind a welcome Salvation.

This is evident in such Statements as;;"Oh please put out the list of British Genocides,I don't disagree with the Invasion Point you made but those were the Imperialist Attitudes of the Day ,and compered with the treatment handed out in South America we were mild, wrong maybe with hindsight but mild none the less." 15:06 July 1, 2012 by Englishted

That's what you have written, as I have set an interesting list of British nasty crimes against humanity, you certainly remember.http://mwcnews.net/focus/editorial/458-churchills-crimes a-chilcot-inquiry-on-iraq-war.html

An example,in the Daily (Hate) Mail they asked the reason why british women are more prone to obesity. There was someone who actually believes and wrote, "that it would be that they could not overcome the Trauma of WWII"and he or she ment young Girls aswell.I can only shake my Head when I read something like this.

There you go Onlythetruth - Another Farytale,

The Great Famine was a period of mass starvation, disease and emigration between 1845 and 1852 .You suffer most under the Stockholm syndrome,do you?
12:25 November 16, 2012 by Onlythetruth
The potato blight in Ireland is very controversial but the german holocaust is not. The germans were responsible as a matter of government policy for executing at least 6 million people and causing a catastrophic world wide super war which killed 50 million more.

Tell us again Anny One again how the germans weren't so bad, they were just like everyone else.
13:39 November 16, 2012 by Anny One again
@Onlythetruth

"Ireland has, they say, the honor of being the only country which never persecuted the Jews. Did you know? No. And you know why? ...

Because she (or it ?) has never admitted, Mr Deasy said solemnly. "Only the last sentence of this quote from Ulysses by James Joyce is the truth.

"Our practice was to the effect any appreciable increase in the Jewish population to prevent in advance," the longtime Irish Justice Minister Roche said in an interview after the 2nd World War II.Actually hoped persecuted Jews - from the time the Tsarist pogroms end of the 19th Century up to Hitler, usually in vain, to find protection in Ireland from the increasing persecution. Where so much anti-Semitism at that time had long been established and the few Jews in Ireland were not sure of him.Example of the United Irishman newspaper and its columnist Arthur Griffith "the outbreak of anti-Semitism within the Sinn Fein nationalism". Christian anti-Judaism mixed with anti-Semitic stereotypes, the Nationalist movement. "The three evil influences of the Pirate (the English), the Freemasons, and the Jew is."

But the propaganda it should remain. Organized in Limerick Catholic fundamentalists and nationalists 1904 a veritable pogrom.The event, which is indeed not dead, after all, was seriously injured but went down in history. The hatred of the British and Jews led many nationalists to open collaboration with the Nazis. These Hitler admirers was the late writer Francis Stuart, who until 1945 worked in Germany for the Nazi propaganda machine.

Shortly before his death in the late nineties Stuart made headlines again when he declared in an interview: "The Jew has always been the worm that crawled into the rose and made them sick." Also, the Irish ambassador in Berlin, Bewley, was among the Naziadmirer and declared anti-Semite.After he was dismissed from his post by the Irish Government, Bewley remained in the Third Reich, and testified at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal for Goering. Diplomats like Bewley were responsible for that many persecuted Jews from all over Europe only at the last minute, or not able to save themselves from the Nazis to the Emerald Isle.

http://www.leo-baeck.de/leobaeck/sachbuchallgemein/buch-00448.html

Leo Baek was jewish and thank god Ireland a small Country.Btw you count the Pacific War to the Europe Theatre.tz tz tz ....
15:03 November 16, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@Onlythetruth

"The potato blight in Ireland is very controversial but the german holocaust is not."

To question the official narrative is Holocaust Denial, a crime punishable by imprisonment in most of the West, including Ireland I assume.

Perhaps this is why the Holocaust is not as "controversial" as the Potato Famine- but perhaps I have already said too much. As you have pointed out, and as I shall duly repeat here, 6 million were executed.

In closing friends, I, Leo Strauss, council all Local Members and any who read this post to believe unconditionally what our governments tell us, for I, like all of you, am interested in "Onlythetruth".
16:00 November 16, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Leo Strauss

To bad for you that to question the official narrative of the Holocaust is not only illegal but willfully stupid in view of the countless sources that confirm that it did indeed happen in exactly the way the overwhelming majority of people including its victims know that it did. Spurious and disingenuous inferences like yours to the contrary.

Yes, you have said too much Leo. Go away troll.
16:23 November 16, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@ Only their truth

It has been suggested from time to time throughout the history of the West that a sentient, moral and rational human being is capable of coming to the truth on his own. If you do not recognize the inherent contradiction of a state-enforced narrative, then please return to your regular programming after this unscheduled interruption. I, for one, approach most things from a skeptical perspective, except of course, the topic under discussion, which I accept as the truth. Again, I would advise all others to do the same. :)
17:17 November 16, 2012 by Onlythetruth
What bull$hit! Take your head out of your rear Leo.
20:47 November 16, 2012 by Englishted
@Anny One again,

"The question should be,"where you abide to have such a one eyed assessment of the Germans?"

Well unlike you I will answer the question you put :

I abide in German with a German wife and family .

"Every day in the British Television is a Documentary about the World Wars"

If you lived in Germany you would know it is the same here.

"It obviously lacks the British Psyche a complete sense of wrongdoing and fighting the Nazis was in a kind a welcome Salvation."

Almost correct but winning against the Nazis was a "welcome Salvation " for the people of Europe .

So I will ask again where do you come from? and where do you abide?

Will you answer this time or hide behind your anti-British rhetoric?
21:01 November 16, 2012 by Amie79
Wow, Germans must be really brain washed if they cannot separate the categories of Concentration Camp Commanders from actual Battlefield Commanders. Just kidding. I live in Germany and married a German. But seriously, Germans need to learn to think more critically and categorically. Also, Germans need to learn to think outside the German box. There are times when thinking inside a box is necessary but Germans take thinking inside the box to a WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL! Keep in mind I married one.
03:35 November 17, 2012 by soros
What an inane non-issue. When is a German general a "Nazi" general? Were they all members of the Party? And what's wrong with examining the military acumen of officers? As for being "war criminals", read Crimes and Mercies by James Bacque, then let's talk about the military and crimes against humanity.

The German press is riddled with mindless pacifists and leftists, sniffing out Nazis but turning a blind eye to any other "criminals". This is hardly unbiased or intelligent.
04:09 November 17, 2012 by PNWDev
@leo

Long time no read. Welcome back.

Save your breath, @truther believes every government authored propaganda he has ever read. Anyone that does not accept his narrative, regardless of topic, gets labeled a holocaust denier.

His cause and effect logic selectively begins in 1940.
04:31 November 17, 2012 by DavidtheNorseman
The US Civil War was completely about the right to abuse your fellow man. Read Confederate VP Stephens speeches to Southern magnates where he admits it plainly.

Dresden was simply vengeance for Coventry. The British Lords had sworn vengeance for the wanton destruction of peaceful Coventry and they are (were?) not to be taken lightly.

It has been seventy years since WWII - longer than the time between Napoleon's final defeat and the Franco-Prussian War. Time to file it as History. The current generation of Germans have not risen up to murder their neighbours and steal their stuff.

The list in question is simply a list by a scholar of the military ability of historical generals. On any list of the 10 best worldwide generals the name of Ghengis Khan would surely be there. I know of no one who would consider him anything but cruel.

Finally, the Allies themselves obviously rated German and Japanese military ability as evidenced by the assassination of Admiral Yamamoto and the attempted military assassination of Rommel. Such assessments are commonplace and the Nazi's had such high respect for the Swiss leading general they included his presence in their consideration of attacking Switzerland.

I would have put Hoth on the list myself as I have always considered Guderian over-rated (he was big on the self-promotion thing). The list is an assessment of competence, not moral fibre.
05:05 November 17, 2012 by Anny One again
@Englishted

I grew up in West Germany,as a child and had waved to the British Troops and Tank Convoys from the roadside when they start their maneuver exercises. BFBS has marked my taste of music in my youth.Everything in the belief that together we have the same goal,to protect Western Europe from the Warsaw Pact.Surveys in British media confirmed that West Germany was one of the most trusted partner on the continent at the time.

Until the Berlin Wall fell and the Cold War was over.And until Germany was reunited.Since then, it appears that the opinion in the UK have changed.British media suddenly remembered back to the 2nd World War,since then,not a week goes by in Britain without a Nazi story.

Even my British Uncle who married after his brit.military service a German woman and made a fortune while living in Germany and while in the UK economy went bad doubt, sometimes to the stability of German democracy and manifests itself sometimes disparagingly.

However, I know that he often reads British media and I found.some voices of his remarks frequently in articles like this one again for example;

The neoconservative historian John Charmley founded in the Daily Mail, why "we Germans, unfortunately, can never be trusted."The division was the "German problem" solved temporarily, but nobody had really trusted the Germans."Three hundred years of conditioning" could be just do not "overnight" undo.The Sunday Independent, was the occasion of VE day to read,"If Germany was liberated in 1945, then not as a prisoner from jail, but in the sense of a junkie who is freed from his addiction."The left culture magazine Granta asked in a special issue on "Krauts", "What's up with this nation to be - so ugly, so dangerous, so predictable?"The writer Martha Gellhorn believed that the Germans were collectively unstable, "I think there is loose a gene";columnist Petronella Wyatt tried the "Wagnerian temperament" that the Germans exaggerate it, "in an extreme way to tackle everything, including moderation" "Germany is still sick and dangerous".

I had not forgotten that you had married a German woman.These two articles describe very well what impression I experience every day maybe she can translate it for you.

The English press induces fear of Germany from 1996

Die englische Presse schürt die Angst vor Deutschland von 1996

http://www.zeit.de/1996/27/briten.txt.19960628.xml

or Krauts

http://www.zeit.de/1999/40/199940.t-briten_.xml/seite-1

Quot;"Every day in the British Television is a Documentary about the World Wars"Answer"If you lived in Germany you would know it is the same here"Quote.

That is correct but not in the UK or in Germany was so intense eg about British history reported, why not?

And these are all things that have made me curious-

I'm actually not anti-British,a bit anti-Irish since a short time.:)

I am more concerned with fairness and justice

.Iam still living in Germany
07:04 November 17, 2012 by PNWDev
@david.....norse

Your civil war comment is shallow, narrow, and beyond highly selective. It is so ridiculous it is not worth wasting any time proving how sheep-like it is. How many other positions do you promote using such selectively framed arguments?
08:31 November 17, 2012 by Anny One again
@Onlythetruth # 42

"Its absolutely clear that you are either a nazi or unstable or both."your words. Well when i read your nasty Comments about Foreigners before TL delete them and ignoring the fact of Atrocities especially in many of these Countries,i guess your would be a good Irish Obersturmbannführer.That would have been quite possible,a small number of Irish fought for the Axis powers, three Irishmen should have served in the Waffen SS (two of which ironically in the "British Free Corps").Pfff.....unbelievable

As in the last Days of the War, as nearly every South American Banana Republic declared war on the German Empire , Ireland retained its neutrality. Up to the embarrassing farce that your former political Irish Leader De Valera offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945.

I get it, that you grew up probably on the other side of the road or block somewhere in Ireland.But apparently this does not matter,on the contrary

So much for the request of;"Amuse us with more Stories....."
12:20 November 17, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Anny One again

I asked for amusing stories not undisorganized and nonsensical ranting which I must say is not amusing.
12:43 November 17, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@ PNWDev

Hi P, thanks for the welcome back. I know what you mean, but if we can wake up even one of them... :)
15:28 November 17, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Sure PNWDev, good luck in trying to persuade anyone rational that what the germans did during the war wasn't so bad and anyway everyone was doing it. You and Leo and your fellow holocaust deniers and equivocators are a disgrace to the german people who are trying to go forward from a history of atrocities against millions of innocent people which included the germans themselves.

The only people hiding anything from anyone these days are disingenuous malcontents like yourselves who think that if they fail and gesture wildly in another direction it will excuse the pitiful german history of the 20th century. No, everyone was not committing heinous war crimes during WWII and certainly not with the zeal and relish of the nazis and their willing executioners.
17:24 November 17, 2012 by PNWDev
@truther

And here I thought we had made it past your fictitious labeling of others. An Irishman giving me advice on my German brethern? Isn't that a bit like me telling you how to potato farm?
21:04 November 17, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@PNWDev

Nothing fictitious about it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
01:34 November 18, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@Onlytheirtruth

Please don`t refer to me as a Holocaust Denier. I have never put forth that proposition here and resent the way that you carelessly accuse me and others on this thread of doing so. It is illegal. Call me all of the other names that you have in your little Tickle Trunk, but don`t accuse me here of breaking the law.

I merely pointed out to you that the German Holocaust, as you described it, is not controversial because it is illegal to question the official narrative. Illegal. Criminalizing the debate effectively ends all controversy or any further academic discussion, doesnt it? One accepts the official narrative or one goes to prison.

That is a fact and that was my point.

You are just Anny One through the Looking Glass. You are in a box with her trapped within a false paradigm, fighting it out over which nation was more guilty even as the real perpetrators are setting up World War Three (and no, I am not referring to the Jews). Within this construct, anyone who questions your position is automatically assigned to the German camp as a revanchist Nazi or a Holocaust Denier. Very simplistic but not very bright.

You have a lot to learn.
02:40 November 18, 2012 by Anny One again
@Leo Strauss

My concern is simple

No week passes in either TL or in other media by reports of the 2nd World War. The result is that EU problems should be solved in Greece and Portugal with posters of German politicians and Swastikas.

On the other hand, I discover more and more historical events that are very similar to the Nazi era. But no one reported and citizens from affected nations understandably want to know nothing about it.

The American Professor R.Rummel wrote a interesting Book "Death by Goverment"It just starts at 20th Centaury until 1987 !

Take a look in this interesting reading example on Google Books,scroll a little bit down to the Chart /Table 1.2 Twentieth-Century Democide So many Genocides where the public does not give adequate attention.Thats what i try to explain,its not just forgotten,the investigation is systematically suppressed by the respective countries. And most of the people also rather know nothing about it.

http://books.google.de/books?id=N1j1QdPMockC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

It explains a lot !¦quot; 169,198,000 people murdered just in the last Century alone,and nobody wants to know how by whom und why..

Hey truther !Is it true that in Ireland it isn`t allowed to drive a Harley Davidson?

Po-ta-to Po-ta-to Po-ta-to Po-ta-to .......
10:21 November 18, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Leo Strauss

Yes it is criminal to question the official narrative of the Holocaust because it did occurr the way it is overwhelmingly accepted that it did and because irresponsible and disingenuous puesdo intellectuals like you could damage the still fragile and ongoing german moral recovery from fascism. There is no responsible debate. Period.

I may have a lot to learn but nothing from your confused nonsense.

@ Anny one

Oh I get it, you're about 14 years old and trying to learn english. You're not doing very well in that department, I suggest you play somewhere else until your postings become legible and maybe you and your opinions have grown up a bit.
12:08 November 18, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@Onlytheirtruth

You assert that it is criminal to question the narrative of an event that is, in your opinion, "overwhelmingly accepted". Hmmm, what does that smell like?

And "puesdo" intellectuals like me "could damage the still fragile and ongoing german moral recovery from fascism." ??!

So I am endangering the German moral recovery from fascism?

PNWDev was right, you really are hopeless.

I am an advocate of free speech, which is antithetic to fascism. It is the cure.

I must ask, have you any idea who the real fascists in Germany are? Who is running the NSU? Who is selling weapons to dictators? Who has authorized the gov`t to deploy the Bundeswehr against civilians within Germany. Who is spreading propaganda about "Defending Germany in the Hindukusch" in order to justify foreign occupations? Who is uniting all of Europe through national debt (maybe you have heard about that one in banker occupied Ireland- or is it forbidden to discuss it? Probably never heard of Iceland? Enjoy your slavery, debt serf, because thats what happens when you dont know the enemy.)

At the moment we are still able to read and write about these things but for how long, and with what consequences?

Have you any idea how dangerous it is for people like me and other Local members to write these things on a public forum in this day and age?

These things are probably lost on someone like you, but they have not been posted for you but rather at you for others to read.

Oh yeah, I know that you are one of the sleepwalkers, but even you may have noticed that this is the Local. de. You know, Deutschland? So you can save your derogatory comments regarding Anny One`s English- they are unwanted here.

@Anny One

I get it AO, I get it. There is history and then there is HIS story. Of course, it is used as a weapon in the propaganda war and it is everywhere- anyone (again) knows that. ;) Nur Schall und Rauch- iss ja klar. Aber reg Dich nicht auf, Kind. It has always been like this. Germany has always been used to break Europe down and then to rebuild it again according to plan while the banksters run it from behind the state. It is happening again, this time with Merkel, the new Ugly German.
12:26 November 18, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Leo Strauss

You're not an advocate of free speech, you're an advocate of verbal diarrhea. Its quite clear that word intellectual, pseudo or otherwise, has nothing to do with you. Go away troll. Your verbose smoke screen to assuage your german guilt feelings have nothing to do with reality and are boring in the extreme.
13:19 November 18, 2012 by Leo Strauss
Thats it?

Thats all that you have to offer?

Names, insults and psychoanalysis?

We were discussing free speech and fascism in these dangerous times and thats all that you bring to the table?

Na? Zeig was du kannst.

Das war s? Tja.

Very disappointing and a waste of my time. I could simply go to the playground if I wanted to learn some clever new names. OK, maybe I would have to fly to playground in Ireland, but you get my point.

Anyway, Onlytheirtruth, you have shown that you dont deserve free speech, and whats more, you dont deserve freedom. This is fitting as you live in Ireland, a country that has lost her sovereignty and is doing nothing about it. Still, judging from your posts, I bet that the slaves in Eire have come up with some witty names and insults for their new masters. Ha-ha-ha- now back to work serfs. :)

Haf a goot Dai,

Leo "the German" XD
13:45 November 18, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Go away troll.
10:24 November 19, 2012 by Anny One again
Yes Leo you have valid point

"Once a german always a german"it works since hundred Years,

thanks to people like this one for example William Maxwell "Max" Aitken, 1. Baron Beaverbrook and his successors.

Hey ! Shame rock ! "You misunderestimated me."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Btw

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
12:45 November 19, 2012 by Fireplug52
Sounds like someone has got their "panties in a wad".
15:11 November 19, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@Anny

Anny my dear, I know.

Let me recommend these books to you:

From the Federal Reserve Bank, to funding the Bolsheviks and then Hitler- it`s the same demons and they are still running things today.

http://www.amazon.de/Sutton-Wall-Street-Aufstieg-Hitlers/dp/3907564693/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353332681&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.de/Untergang-Dollar-Imperiums-verborgene-Geschichte-heimliche/dp/3938516895/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353332854&sr=1-1

The banksters caused both World Wars and will cause the Third. I think that we have to get past the nation vs nation narrative in order to see our mutual enemy. You are right to point out the lies and hypocrisy coming from the victors, but ask yourself this, would Germany have behaved any better had they won?

Let`s try to focus on the real criminals, cuz without credit there ain`t no wars. :)
15:36 November 19, 2012 by degeneral
I think we should not let politics and ideology come into this picture. Let go of the war guilt for a second when the Wermacht comes up, ok, and try to see this thing objectively.

The question wasn't which were the most honourable German generals. The question was which ones were the most brilliant. They could be war criminals, pedofiles, necrofiles, or whatever; the question focused on their capabilities as soldiers and not on their other, quite questionable qualities. The fact remains: the Wermacht over the war was consistently better fighting force than any other it came up against. It also was repsonsible for war crimes; the two things are separate issues.

Mainstein is widely regarded as the most brillian general of the war, along with Zhukov.

And if you ask me Zhukov wasn't a nice man, either. (Or Patton, for that matter.) Being a nnice person will not make you a good general. But neither will committing war crimes will make you a bad one. It will make you a war criminal, though.
16:03 November 19, 2012 by Zubair Khan
Absence of Erwin Rommel puzzled me. Back in eighties he was being taught one of exemplary generals in military history. Can it be called some sort of jealousy at the part of author?
16:17 November 19, 2012 by Leo Strauss
If you would like to read the opinions of foreign military experts and former adversaries regarding the German Wehrmacht then this book is worth checking out:

http://www.amazon.de/Supersoldiers-Wehrmacht-Urteil-ausl%C3%A4ndischer-Experten/dp/3924309779
23:36 November 19, 2012 by Onlythetruth
This thread gets funnier and funnier.

Yes, the german super soldiers were so super that they got soundly trounced in Africa, their a$$es kicked out of russia and europe and watched their homeland rubbished by what their incompetent and pathological Fuhrer tried to dismiss as "Untermenshen".

Yes, super indeed. They were so super that when they were injured during the war their government tried to kill many of them in the same gas vans they used to kill the jews.
03:09 November 20, 2012 by kellyvanrijn
Better questions would have been: Which German car manufacturer is the least reliable? True or false: A Volkswagen will spend more time in the dealer's service bay than your driveway? Which costs more, an ounce of gold, or a replacement widget on an Audi? Essay question: Explain why BMWs were great cars years ago, but not they are just overpriced money pits on wheels.
04:43 November 20, 2012 by Anny One again
@onlythetruththatyouliketohear

Weinberg (Jewish)was born in Hanover, Germany, and resided there the first ten years of his life in Nazi Germany, he and his family suffered increasing persecution. They emigrated in 1938, first to the United Kingdom and then in 1941 to New York State.Weinberg,who held the alleged diaries of Adolf Hitler(hoax story) for a authentic material.He devoted his time to seized documents of the defeated Germany.I have my doubts that he will ever have in his life, access to the archives of the U.S., UK or Russia.Especially since these countries have also destroyed documents, which is not a secret. And "The Kindly Ones" is an fictional novel written by an American-born jewish author Jonathan Littell,"fictional !"

There was a widespread debate in Germany,during which Littell was accused of being "a pornographer of violence."Some criticised it from an historical perspective; one historian called the novel a ¦quot;strange, monstrous book¦quot; that was "full of errors and anachronisms over wartime German culture".Both have understandably an agenda.For a neutral view of the situation very questionable sources.A good example is this"Untermenschen" (Subhumans) discussion. Has ever an Author (whether Jewish or not) published the sources for Hitler's racial ideology for example ?I would argue that 70% of these theorist with their bullshixx was of non German origin.--

I Think,a General must have be a authority in terms of morality,responsibility,honor and a sense of duty not only towards his soldiers and to his country and its citizens.But also against the enemy.The High Command wanted to avoid anything which might lead to a defeat in WWI.New weapons, revolutionary tactics and psychological indoctrination of soldiers was a significant aspect in their strategies. The fear of a mutiny like in Kiel(WW!) in a hopeless situation which could lead to a revolution was not forgotten.They learned their lessons.From 1941 they removed the code of practise from the Soldiers payment Book/Soldbook.Code of practice was the "Ten Commandments for the warfare of the German soldier" based on the Genever Convention and Hague (War)Regulations for example.It was believed that after the experience of the Versailles Treaty,Germany would have no future when they not win. So they went so rather brutal,to turn the tide quickly and to create new facts.But this must be a General need to be asked or answer,whether he can reconcile with his conscience.Therefore it has been playing an important role in the benchmark.If they concentrate only on strategic competence that is maybe another matter.

"Incompetent and pathological Fuhrer"absolutly.But for the soldiers to fight against all the whole allied nations is quite an achievement,a dumb one but a bloody tough one.
07:46 November 20, 2012 by Leo Strauss
@onlytheirtruth

"This thread gets funnier and funnier".

An appeal to ridicule instead of a call to criminalize a proposition or to ban the book.

This is what I call progress. :)
13:57 November 20, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Your postings are beyond the ridiculous Leo, I was being courteous.
22:23 November 21, 2012 by avatar009
Greating all

I think the napolion and hitler, was futuristic because, we see today how

western and souhtern eurpe economy is collapsing. Soon russia will control overall europe energy, means controlling EU economy. Although i dont support criminal act, but 1930 after the graet depression, someone must draw the western economy future, i think hitler and napolion forseen that.

When it comes to those top ten generals i see the list of these names. Zeitzler, Guderian and Kerbs, of course Rommel was the one of the best, but i leave this question to germans, beacuse they know who was their best commander in cheif.
18:30 November 23, 2012 by t69tsb
Gemany has produced great military leaders. It just depends on what they did with that leadership that should be judged.
16:25 November 26, 2012 by avatar009
hi Greating all

well,

The WWII has changed the behaviour of world trade centre. In 1930 the world trade centre was operating many criminals egg; like gambino family and lehman brothers, they created the colapse of world trade centre 1930.

Today the regulation is diffrent, it could happen any time.Why?

I think the ww2 was based economy to put in golobal economy in order, and the control the most resource to survive. To avoid happening it depends the behaviour of golobal economy structure, because we see EU collapsing, and ASEAN emearching. That is why the Napolean and hitler where moving in the east europe, because western europe is dry or short in resource at that time also at this time.

It was all about economy and future survival.
09:48 November 27, 2012 by Anny One again
"Greating" avatar 009

You maybe right ! Napoleon and Hitler may had something in common.

Both must have obvious believed in global warming,before they planned their campaigns against Russia,including the russian winter.
01:28 November 30, 2012 by Landmine
"Only an American could ask a question like this," German newspaper Die Welt"

Only a German thinks they can slam your country to your face and not expect violent verbal abuse or a free trip into next week...
16:31 December 2, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Its not that the germans can't deal with holocaust guilt, Landmine. They just can't get over losing the war.
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Ten German words you'll never want to hear again

Ten German words you'll never want to hear again

There are some German words which we'd rather were never invented. From the almost unpronounceable to the sheer pointless, The Local List has identified ten of the worst words in the German language. Do you agree? READ  

Investigators offer $30m reward for MH17 clues
Investigators at the MH17 crash site. Photo: DPA

Investigators offer $30m reward for MH17 clues

Anonymous backers have armed a German private detective with a $30-million war chest to find out who shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine. READ  

13,000 police will catch speeders on Thursday
This sight will be familiar to drivers on Thursday. Photo: DPA

13,000 police will catch speeders on Thursday

UPDATE: Drivers across Germany will be on the lookout for police holding radar guns on Thursday, as 13,000 officers take to the streets to crack down on speeding. READ  

Oktoberfest 2014
Your guide to Munich Oktoberfest traditions
Photo: DPA

Your guide to Munich Oktoberfest traditions

The world's biggest beer festival opens in Munich on Saturday. Running until October 5th, Oktoberfest is expected to attract more than six million visitors, drinking seven million litres of beer. Here's the first of The Local's four-part guide to the festival, starting with leathery traditions. READ  

Climber, 77, falls 80 metres to his death
The Alps near Innsbruck. Photo: DPA

Climber, 77, falls 80 metres to his death

A 77-year-old German climber fell 80 metres to his death in an Alpine ravine on Tuesday. READ  

State leader defends 'Russia Day'
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania state premier Erwin Sellering is a big fan of Russia. Photo: DPA

State leader defends 'Russia Day'

The leader of a state in eastern Germany is not letting the worst crisis between Russia and Europe since the Cold War get in the way of his plans to celebrate "Russia Day", despite critical voices calling him a "Putin sympathizer". READ  

Champions League
Borussia Dortmund outgun Arsenal in opener
Dortmund players celebrate at the final whistle. Photo: DPA

Borussia Dortmund outgun Arsenal in opener

Italian striker Ciro Immobile scored his first goal for Borussia Dortmund as the German side produced a dominant performance to outclass Arsenal 2-0 in their Champions League opening group game in Dortmund on Tuesday. READ  

German Muslims protest against extremism
Muslim Coordination Council spokesman Ali Kizilkazya speaking in Berlin on Tuesday. Photo:DPA

German Muslims protest against extremism

The biggest Muslim faith organizations in Germany will hold a nationwide demonstration for tolerance and peace and against all types of extremism on Friday. READ  

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