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Religious offence - hate speech or free speech?

The Local · 19 Sep 2012, 11:51

Published: 19 Sep 2012 11:51 GMT+02:00

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The government would like to prevent the anti-Muslim group Pro Deutschland from screening the “The Innocence of Muslims” film in Germany, obviously fearing a violent reaction from offended Muslim extremists.

When the group demonstrated in front of mosques with posters of the Mohammed cartoons which had caused outrage when published in Danish newspapers, Salafist counter-protesters ended up attacking the police.

Yet opposition Social Democrat and Green politicians argued against preventing a public showing of the film, saying it would lay down a dangerous civil rights precedent.

Muslim groups are also divided on how to respond, with the Coordinating Council of Muslims in Germany and the Central Council of Muslims pleading for a ban.

They said the film was so deeply offensive to Muslims it should qualify as hate speech, while also warning of potential violence on the streets of Germany should it be shown. The Catholic Church added its voice to those calling for a public showing of the film to be prevented.

Yet Lamya Kaddor, chairwoman of the Liberal-Islamic Association spoke out in favour of showing the film.

She told the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper the violence had little to do with religion, and that it was “more insulting to Mohammed to allow oneself to be provoked, to kill other people and set buildings on fire.”

She said Muslims slipped into the role of victim if they demand a ban on screening the film. “I can understand that many say – 'we Muslims again!?' But one must try to keep a cool head. We shouldn't always react like puppets.”

The entire debate only contributes to Islamophobia, she said, as talk quickly turns from outraged Salafists to outraged Muslims, putting everyone in the same category.

Would stopping a public showing of the film be sensible, showing understanding for the religious beliefs of Muslims living in Germany, and preventing hate speech? Or should Germany demand toleration of offence in the name of free speech? Have your say.

Registered users of The Local may add their comments in the field below. If you haven't signed up yet, you can do so here – it's free and only takes a moment.

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Your comments about this article

12:38 September 19, 2012 by Englishted
"should Germany demand toleration of offence in the name of free speech? Have your say. "

Here is my say YES
12:40 September 19, 2012 by zeddriver
Free speech should prevail. For everyone.
12:41 September 19, 2012 by alimughal
Its not the film or freedom of speech, its about respecting every human being on earth.... we the muslims have never made fun of anyone\s god or religion then y insulting us like this.... if u want to call abusing n torturing a freedom of speech then i think u r a great civilization and in it everybody should have the right to abuse harass n torture everyone in public n should not hold punishable..... I dare u people pass this law in ur country :) no offence, Ali Akhlaq Mughal
12:43 September 19, 2012 by Eric1
Offensive speech is why we have free speech. We should be offended by those living in the 9th century who want to kill every Christian or Jew they can get their hands on. We should not be tolerating evil people.
12:44 September 19, 2012 by IchBinKönig
"should Germany demand toleration of offence in the name of free speech? Have your say. "


And besides, Germany didn't release any video. Why was the Khartoum German Embassy attacked, then? Please, tell the truth about hate and intolerance. Its not a game of hide and seek, so stop treating it as one.
12:44 September 19, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Moslems need to get over themselves in a hurry.


Why should we allow them to reserve unto themselves that they, their religion and their "prophet" are beyond criticism or even appropriate criticism? The defense of freedom of speech has never been a walk in the park and violence or the threat of violence should never be allowed to become a deterrent to the exercise of that right. When that happens we are all the victims.

Should we next decide that criticism of Scientology or the mafia is out of bounds because they might become upset and violent?
12:48 September 19, 2012 by LancashireLad
As I see it, there are laws against inciting hatred, be it against a religion, homosexuals, whatever. I haven't seen the film myself, nor am I going to make great pains to do so, but from what I understand it is nothing more that incitement of racial hatred towards the Muslim faith.

On those grounds alone it should not be shown. Please note the only people who have actively called for it to be shown are right wing extremists.

To those who say "Look at Monty Pyhon's Life of Brian - you didn't see Christians getting all hot and bothered about that", please remember that that film was made by Christians (well, certainly not people of another faith). This anti-muslim film was most definitely not made by Muslims - therefore it is an attempt to incite ridicule and hatred.

For those who then say "but look what Islam demands of its followers in retaliation", you are basically proving my biggest problem with *any* religion: it isn't the religion itself that is the problem, but the power-mongers who "interpret" the religious writings for their own purposes.

The film should not be shown. We should not pander to those who wish to incite hatred: be it the right wingers or those who made the film.
12:48 September 19, 2012 by Englishted

You just don't get it do you?
12:55 September 19, 2012 by IchBinKönig

'everybody should have the right to abuse harass n torture everyone in public '

the murdering, arson and destruction directed at those that had nothing to do with any movie, is proof of your own reactionary violence and intolerance. Where are the burned mosques in retaliation? There are no burned mosques, nor is there any violence or protests against your actions. We just watch in shock at the violent religious fanatics.
13:08 September 19, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Basically these fundamentalist zombies are attacking countries with free speech. It does not matter whether they are muslim zombies or christian, jewish or whatever breed of zombie. Our governments should not be apologising for our freedom of expression and speech. After all, if our governments did start curtailing freedom of expression, speech then freedom to practice ones religion would also follow swiftly and turn the west into a similar intolerant society as the ones where these embassy attacks are happening. Where would that leave the muslims living in the west then? If these cartoons and cynical movies are just ignored then nobody would give a rats arse about them and life would go on happily.
13:10 September 19, 2012 by LancashireLad
OK. Now here's a chance to clear up a few myths.

Ali, I have a genuine question for you. Does the Koran *really* demand that Muslims make violent reaction in retaliation for any slights against the Islamic faith, or is it just the twisted view of those Imams and power mongers who want to control using religion?

What exactly does the Koran say about this? Please clear up this gap in my knowledge as I really would like to understand the thought processes and drivers of some of the people I have to share this planet with.

Of those Muslims I know personally, I cannot imagine any of them condoning the violence perpetrated in the name of retaliation for this film.

As I said, this *is* a genuine request.
13:11 September 19, 2012 by Frenchone
Just like they them burning embassy for their religion, I could burn a mosque for the freedom of speech.
13:13 September 19, 2012 by KyleHawkins
In reporting the story, CNN said "we refuse to show any clips of this film, which is available on Youtube". So what did I do? I went to Youtube. The "film" is so amateurish and so blatantly anti-Islam that it borders on humor.

Forbidding something is the quickest way to get people to do something. Let people show the film. Anyone who watches it will mourn the time they spent doing so, and it most certainly is not going to change anyone's mind.

There ARE parallels in the Christian experience. "The last temptation of Christ" was a film which many Christians viewed as blasphemous. There were demonstrations in front of many movie theaters and calls for boycotts of theaters, companies and even actors.

People need to see that:

1) Religion must be open to criticism and debate

2) Faith, if it is not strong enough to withstand criticism and debate is not worth defending.

3) If religion and faith withstand criticism and debate, they come out stronger, not weaker, in the end.

As an aside, this becomes an intensely personal judgement call. For me, no religion or faith can withstand criticism and debate, and that is why I profess no religion. But as it is PERSONAL, I cannot fault others for claiming Christianity, Islam (etc), if they do so with a critical mind.
13:21 September 19, 2012 by NEFT|S
Freedom of speech will seize to exist if the freedom to offend is gone. Societies and cultures evolve by facing new challenges and criticism to its values. One simply cannot cause suffering by threatening or committing violent acts And this shows that the Muslim world has shown absolute helplessness to defend its manipulative destructive beliefs. If you do not like what you see on the TV, just turn it off, or blog your ideas. You just have to grow up.

As for the broadcast, Just get on with it.
13:25 September 19, 2012 by zeddriver

we the muslims have never made fun of anyone\s god or religion. Really! The first crusade by pope urban II came 465 years AFTER the first Islamic Jihad in the year 630

630 Muhammad launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes. They could enjoy the 'privilege' of living under Islamic 'protection' (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad's and the later Caliphs' policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616—17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today's Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034—35).

634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.
13:32 September 19, 2012 by freechoice
read the book written by an Islamic scholar, "Muhammad Jesus and I" and understand fully who Muhammad is before you go down the street and start protesting. If Allah is Great, do you think He needs your defence? do you think you are qualified to do so?
13:33 September 19, 2012 by elitebavarian
it is funny as well as strange that if I make insulting comments to a person, he/she can sue me and take me to a court. But if I insult 1.5 billion people, then I call it 'freedom of speech'.

OK, if someone really want to have 'freedom of speech', then lets talk about the holocaust, and when some jews will cry, we can say it is 'freedom of speech'.
13:34 September 19, 2012 by Onlythetruth
I as a Christian declare that the film The Life Of Brian is a hate film targeting christianity. Therefore must it not be shown either?

One mans hate speech is another man's proclamation of the truth. Free speech dictates that we should not distinguish between them regardless of the consequences as the consequences of trying are the death of freedom of expression. Hurt feelings on one side or the other should never be allowed to enter into the discussion.
13:41 September 19, 2012 by elitebavarian
@zeddrive: so that's what did your media have taught you so much biased information, I can only pity on that.

Do you remember what Salahuddin said when he was entering Jerusalem. He let all the non-muslim men and women to leave safely, not like christians who made Jerusalem a city of blood and raped all the women when they conquered the city.

Jizya ... do you know what is jizya or zakat?? this is equivalent to the 40% tax that you pay to the German Government. So muslims were taking such taxes from all the people (muslim, non-muslim) and providing them all the facilities like you enjoy in Germany or any other country. It also shows that these were the Muslims who started the concept of a social state.

I would recommend you to properly read the history from Neutral historians before spreading such disinformation.
14:08 September 19, 2012 by hberg
Civilized people, on 12 September 2001, did not riot against countries that harbored the terrorists that killed almost 3,000 innocent civilians. They did not break into the embassies or consulates of the countries that bred these cowards. They did not take to the streets and burn the Koran. The people of America, and every civilized country in the world, came together and denounced with their voice that what these terrorists did was a crime against humanity.

But, what do a number of people from some of the oldest civilizations in the world do when a small group of people in America make a 14 minute film against Islam? They riot, break onto sovereign soil left unprotected by the host nation, tear down flags, kill an ambassador and blame a government and its' people for the voice of a few.

Should the film be shown? Yes. Should Muslim's blame every non-Muslim because this video was made and shown? No, but in doing so you show the world your own ignorance and inability to function in modern society.
14:11 September 19, 2012 by intensive_care

Do you think offending people will make them less radical and will accept your values? If no, then its the power of patience, tolerance and love which will change things. This virtue should be both sided, so that a conflict should be avoided.

An example

(youtube) watch?v=4NW3RLnXmTY
14:16 September 19, 2012 by Morseman
Free speech needs to be tempered with common sense. If you want a very basic example, you could be walking down the road and a tough-looking thug is coming the other way. You could exercise your right to free speech and tell him he looks like a big pansy. Common sense, however, warns you that the result will be predictable, so you hold your counsel.

The same principle applies on a much wider scale: nations, peoples, religions and politics.
14:19 September 19, 2012 by antistar
Clearly free speech should prevail. Unfortunately here in Europe we are a bit hypocritical. We don't want to protect Islam from offence, but we protect our own institutions:

In the UK:

Teenager convicted of gross offence for a facebook status update reading "all soldiers should die and go to hell".

In Poland:

Pop-star fined for "offending religious feelings". Her crime? Saying "it's hard to believe in something that was written by someone drunk on wine and smoking herbs."

In Austria:

Historian and published author given prison time for questioning the Holocaust.

In Russia:

Female band given prison for offending the Orthodox church by singing in a church.
14:26 September 19, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
@Morseman An individual can hold their own council. For this to happen with a whole society or country the govermnent would need to exercise restrictions on the freedom of speech to achieve this. That is the point. We value our right to freedom of speech and expression very highly. Without it we allow dictatorships, oppressive government and in extreme circumstances situations like how the taliban controlled people by violence to occur.

Freedom of expression should not be restrained. If some people are not adult enough to take criticism on the chin and critise back in a civilised fashion then it is them who should learn to grow up and stop throwing their rattle out of the pram every time they don't get their way.
14:27 September 19, 2012 by raandy
I recently saw a video making fun of the Royal Family but I did not see a riot or destruction resulting from it.

The video was some fools creation, It was a satire in poor taste to many but funny to others. It was not the doctrine of the USA or any nation. The reaction to the film and the deaths and destruction were way beyond any thing reasonable or acceptable.

Every time some one makes fun of Pope, our church, our leaders this can also become sensored as hate material.

Why is it that when the Muslim faith is made fun of , it is different than other beliefs?

The reactionaries to this video are the problem, any fool can put this type of stuff out there and we all have to suffer for something we had no part in. If these people can not understand that then I doubt censorship will make any difference .
14:41 September 19, 2012 by elitebavarian
@raandy: Why is it that when the Muslim faith is made fun of , it is different than other beliefs?

No dude, try to start a debate on holocaust, you will be put into a jail. Why? because you are hurting jews, but what happens when you hurt 1.5 billion muslims? then you and your 'puppet governments' start crying over 'freedom of expression'.

This hypocracy results attacks on American Embassies. Most (not all) of the western people are so much 'brain-washed' that sometimes they even can't think logically.
14:47 September 19, 2012 by raandy
@ elitebavarian thats correct so but the idiot that made the video in jail and stop burning and destroying, and killing people that had nothing to do with the video,

Be responsible and get the facts.
14:58 September 19, 2012 by zeddriver
@elitebavarian No! But as I wasn't there in 630 taking notes. I need to rely upon written history. I'm merely pointing out that absolute statements like he made are disingenuous. We can go throughout history and always find something that either angers us or that one thinks will support their arguments. Or we can step back and be a little more tolerant.

As an American. I hear everyday. About how I'm some sort of redneck yahoo. That I'm stupid. And how we in America are to blame for every ill that has come to the earth. There are those that hate me personally and would want to see me harmed for simply being an American. And still I do not and will not advocate that saying any thing anti American be made illegal. nor do I support the suing of a person that makes a verbal insult.

But you will notice one thing about most all of my posts on the middle east. I freely admit that my government and those of Europe has in fact stuck it's collective nose where it doesn't belong when it comes to the Middle East. I do not make absolute statements like America has never done wrong. I would however be very interested in what peoples realistic ideas are for a solution to the problems we all face.

from your post.

Do you remember what Salahuddin said when he was entering Jerusalem. He let all the non-muslim men and women to leave safely.

So then if the West is in the Middle East and says "everyone can still be Islamic" We just want to have stability in the government so oil flows without interruption. We don't really care what your religion is. The West never even hinted at asking the non-Christians to leave the middle East. An even more gentle approach than Salahuddin took. And everyone agrees that he was a good and fair conqueror. So there you go. Another snip it of history to support one's view. But then when it is applied to today's events. Can be turned to also support something that I doubt you would support. I.E. westerners in the Middle East. No modern era Western government has ever advocated the dis-Islamification of the Middle East. They (the West) do however want oil to flow freely and we will even pay the Middle eastern countries a lot of money for it.
15:01 September 19, 2012 by elitebavarian
once the western governments make a law, that either you insult/hurt one person with your comments or a whole religious group, both are unacceptable, then these people would not have any reason to kill innocent people or burn the embassies.

I read it on thelocal that a person was fined for saying as-h--e to another person, I think it was happened in Hamburg. So if abusing one person is a crime, then how on earth abusing 1.5 billion people is not a crime??

So the point is to solve the real problem and don't fool people by saying 'freedom of speech/expression'.
15:02 September 19, 2012 by Renee_123
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
15:06 September 19, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ elitebavarian

The holocaust was an historical event that resulted in the deaths of over 6 million people not all of them jews by the way. The reason its a crime to deny the holocaust is not because it defames jews but because its is the denial of a monstrous crime. Satirizing islam on the other hand is the expression of an opinion on a religion many people view as barbaric which was started by a figure that some historians question even existed.
15:25 September 19, 2012 by JAMessersmith
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
15:32 September 19, 2012 by Renee_123
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
15:43 September 19, 2012 by anaverageguy
Daniel Pearl & Nicholas Berg beheaded on video not for what they said, or did, but because they were Jews. Please do not speak of tolerance. The Iranians are constantly threatening Israel with annihilation because that's the home of the Jews. Christians killed and driven from Egypt, Syria and most other Muslim countries. Do not speak of the tolerance of Islam.

If someone doesn't abide by your faith it isn't hateful. If a Mullah issues a fatwa against you because you dare to publicly disagree with Islam THAT is hateful.

My mother thought I was good looking, but you may think I'm ugly. For you to say so doesn't make it so. You are entitled to your opinion and you're having an opinion doesn't insult me, or my mother.

Muslims will find more respect when Islamists stop killing Christians and Jews. It's clear where the hatred and intolerance is coming from on this issue.
15:47 September 19, 2012 by raandy
Renee_123 welcome to the mystery of " Local Censorship. I think some of the censors are not native English speakers and do not fully understand the statement,I certainly have had occasion where i did not understand their English :-)
15:59 September 19, 2012 by friendlylover
I have seen a YouTube only. It is not an art or freedom. It is just a use of freedom by psychopath person to let steam of his complex off. The producers belong go Pro Israeli group and to some extremist orthodox christian Egyptians who hate the Arabs and Islam and want to make problems for Germany and the West. I am sure of that. Does anybody agree to hear such a phrase "Oh, BASTARD MOHAMMAD! YOUR WIFE IS CALLING FOR YOU!" IT IS IN THE FILM! Adam Bellow
16:14 September 19, 2012 by The-ex-pat
Freedom of speech, or in this case freedom to screen a film. As it will result in death of some one in this country, destruction of property and injuries, after all some take the teaching of the Koran to such extremes that the death of a non believer is going to get you smarty points in the after life. Take a look at the loved on next to you and vote for in this case freedom of speech. Fingers crossed for that loved one, it may just be them, wrong time, wrong place, but dead because of a video.....

Sometimes, freedom of speech is not worth it and common sense should prevail.......
16:24 September 19, 2012 by abemarch
It is hate speech and should not be made public. Freedom of speech has limits, i.e., Yelling fire in a crowded theater. Imagine if someone were to depict Jesus in the manner they portray Mohammed? We need to curb hate whenever possible and this is a good example. It is all fabricated. I believe truth is okay even if some are offended, but proliferating a lie is wrong.
16:28 September 19, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
The Local can screen comments by virtue of their "Terms and Conditions" even if the comments they remove are not offensive. I have had comments removed also much to my annoyance and often wonder if the moderator really knows what I am saying. I guess these moderators are not lawyers and only act on certain keywords or phrases being offensive without taking in the whole meaning of the discussion.

I suppose TL would remove this video also if it was posted on their website. This is why TL will never get into the same league as youtube or other top media internet portals. TL is just an online tabloid aiming to avoid trouble. Really a LOCAL Tabloid in all sense of the words. Small and unprovocative and very often uninteresting. These topics are put on TL regularly to get discussion and web traffic. It is a safe formula for them to boost web traffic and comments whilst at the same time removing all risky comments.
16:36 September 19, 2012 by Morseman
@Berlinfueralles and others

In the 1970s, a law was enacted in the UK to make it a crime to "incite racial hatred". There is sometimes discussion as to whether that includes religious hatred... probably not. The law is very rarely applied because of the difficulty in proving the crime as opposed to reasonable free speech.

So to accept your thesis, it was wrong to enact this law. People should have the right to insult other races, stand in front of a shop holding signs that read "Deutsche, kauft nicht von..." (Remember that?)

I don't know the answer to all these problems and, actually, I am tired of it all...

Best wishes to all.
16:42 September 19, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Hate and Satire differ from each other. The movie comes within satire in most peoples opinion. Maybe the person making the movie hates muslims but this does not mean he can not make satire. The best way to answer satire is to make your own and just laugh it off. Burning and killing is not the answer and our governments should not bow down to that sort of pressure. It sets a bad precedent and shows these fundamentalist zombies that they can get their way by acting like they are.
16:48 September 19, 2012 by zeddriver

We can't be isolated from everything that would do us harm. Unless we were to build a large fence to exclude all. And just who would be the arbiters of free speech. The government? You should know very well what they do when given power. They demand more of it. Then what? It will then eventually enact sedition laws. Under the pretense of maintaining good order.

In truth, politeness is artificial good humor, it covers the natural want of it, and ends by rendering habitual a substitute nearly equivalent to the real virtue.

Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson
17:40 September 19, 2012 by Loth
Anyone who would murder someone over that stupid movie is an idiot. Not religious, just stupid.
18:44 September 19, 2012 by doubletee
Since when the freely invented insulting stuff with absolutely no logical argumentation whatsoever is called ¦quot;criticism¦quot;? You want to really criticize Islam? Be their guest! There are lots of debates going on between Muslims and Christians, Muslims and Atheists and so on. Civilized debates, based on mutual respect and logical argumentation, scientific and historical facts and references to the sources. There every side can express any argument they want and will be heard out and given an answer to. Go check Hamza Tzortzis and Zakir Naik for example. So of cause Islam accepts criticism, it even invites it, as Quran constantly calls out to people to ¦quot;think and reflect¦quot; for themselves, with their own mind (just google ¦quot;quran reflect think¦quot; for exact citations).

The film however is not a criticism but an insult, primarily to not the aggressive bearded guys you see on tv but thousands and thousands others who reacted peacefully or didn¦#39;t show their reaction at all (although being to put it mildly very upset). Have you thought about them? Many people here are comparing the film with Life of Brian and saying ¦quot;we are not insulted, we don¦#39;t want it to be prohibited, why are you?¦quot; It¦#39;s your choice and right not to be insulted. It¦#39;s their choice and right to take an offence. Since when it is expected for all people to have the same attitude and reactions to the same things? I have Muslim friends and I was surprised to find out that one can hardly compare the relationship of a Christian with his God and the relationship of a Muslim with his God and Messenger. A Muslim truly loves the Prophet like a dearest friend, more than he loves himself. Unlike Christians, Muslims take every insult on the Prophet personally like an insult on their own mother or father. We can call it ridiculous, illogical, you may not understand it, but it won¦#39;t change this fact that we have to respect. I guess we all should keep in mind that we should treat other people¦#39;s feelings with the respect, even if we fail to understand them.

So freedom of speech ­ yes, freedom of spreading hatred misusing freedom of speech ­ no.
19:38 September 19, 2012 by Ebuc
We are condoning freedom of speech not the irresponsible behavior of the psyeudo director who may have fomented to Muslims.

But why attacked embassies and the ambassador, do they have any connection from the film maker. Sometimes, there is just too much Hollywood from so many people, they equate everything to clandestine operations even when there is no connection to it.

OK, Ali the embassies were burned, flags were trampled, human lives were lost. Were you able to justify your cause? Do you think the citizens agree with your "tooth for a tooth" reaction? Why react on Ambassador Stevens, he was helping Libya to full normalcy. Does he have anything to do with the film maker aside the fact that they were both Americans? Do we have the right to accuse all Muslims in general are violent? Ali, the best thing you can do is to apologize for the families of innocent people and move on as a citizen of the civilized world.
19:43 September 19, 2012 by Englishted
Just want to warn The Local the picture at the top is from the video and therefore you are also showing a image of he who can not be criticised, so the zombies will be after you now .

But thank you for showing that you are also in favour of free speech .
19:57 September 19, 2012 by Al uk
@ lancashire lad you say "we should not pander to those who incite violence" yet.

Yet by not showing the film as you suggest, you are pandering to those whom threaten violence.

How many of those who want the film banned have actually seen it?
20:29 September 19, 2012 by wiedersehen404
To whosoever it may concern. ISLAM IS MISUNDERSTOOD

If anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder or to spread mischief in the land-it would be as if he killed all humankind and if anyone saved a life,it would be as if he saved the life of all humankind (HOLY QURAN 5:32)The bad always opposes the good thus Al-mighty created heaven and hell strategically.You criticized our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) and burned the Quran.DO IT TILL YOU SATISFIED!!The one who insults Prophet Muhammad is like the one who looks directly into the sun and spits at it.His spit falls back on his face.Quran opposes Racism and Fascism while Fascism opposes PEACE,BROTHERHOOD,FRIENDSHIP,COMPROMISE AND TOLERANCE.Allah needs an evidence to put Anti-Islamist in hell where the blue flame will penetrate his bone marrows from Oesophagus to Anus.Protests and Bullets won't help us getting justice.Prayers are powerful than weapons.Patience is a virtue and his help comes to the people who remain patient.People criticized our prophet face to face.He didn't care at all and remained patient and today Islam is challenging every evil after 1430 years approx.from East to the West.Countries like yours where gay marriage has been accepted and legalized.Would you people show us the right way to heaven?How many neurons are there in your brain?You want to know how many Prophet Muhammad had?IF JESUS IS GOD,THEN WHO WAS THE GOD BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN?Show me in any version of your bible where Jesus says "I am the God. Worship me"?If Jesus died for our sins,now a days sins are increasing all over the globe. Do we need another Jesus to come and die for our sins??If bread is the flesh of Jesus and red wine is the blood that makes the red wine a holy drink.What kind of religion would allow to drink and get drunk, loose your consciousness after consuming about 40-45% alcohol?You won¦#39;t be charged by cops while driving cuz you are a pious person.THIS AIN¦#39;T JOKE.You better appreciate the seriousness of the situation otherwise never underestimate the incredibility of stupidity.Prophet Adam was brought to this world without parents. Why can't be Jesus without father??How many versions of the bible do you sell in markets?Which one is the right one cuz the words are not exactly the same but if I buy the Quran,I get the one and original without any amendment in words like Hebrew Bible.If Jesus is the son of God.Why didn't the God mentioned his beloved wife and marriage in the bible or it was just a friendship with Maryam.If God has tendency to reproduce then there is a Demand,Will and other Necessities above the sky. Isn't he similar to us in our daily needs?What is uncommon?What kind of God you are praying my Dog if he is dependent too like you. That was Part 1 of my comment.....to be continue and as follows:
21:00 September 19, 2012 by marimay
I find it funny that this is what concerns people. Not their crumbling economies, not their silly slave lives. I believe in free speech and people should be able to say whatever they want. Do I think it is normal and healthy to say things only to make other people upset? No. This is weird to me. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Dost thou nought else to do? LOL stupid humans.
21:01 September 19, 2012 by crm114
ok the floors yours.

consider though that there probably is no god so all the books are irrelevant.
21:06 September 19, 2012 by antistar
Life of Brian was banned in many parts of the UK on its release. The BBC and ITV refused to show it for fear of offending Christians. Aberystwyth in Wales only unbanned the movie thirty years later in 2009. Rabbis and nuns protested against it in New York. Mary Whitehouse conducted a huge mail campaign against it in the UK.

And Life of Brian is extremely mild compared to this movie.
21:13 September 19, 2012 by wiedersehen404
Part 2 comment 48th continues. When America took one million lives in Iraq for oil-NOT TERRORISM. When Serbs raped Muslim Women in Kosovo/Bosnia-NOT TERRORISM.When Jews kicked out Palestinians and took their land-NOT TERRORISM.When Israel killed 10,000 Lebanese civilians due to 2 missing soldiers-NOT TERRORISM. When Buddhists massacred entire Muslim families in Burma this year 2012-NOT TERRORISM.When Muslims retaliate and show you, how you treat us-TERRORISM.It seems that word Terrorism is only reserved for Muslims.Do you know meine damen und herren,Investigation over 911 for several years came to this conclusion that it was an inside job, a set up and full of distractions.You better read newspapers good.It¦#39;s called Dirty Politics.Do you know how many Americans converted to Islam after WTC,mostly women. Watch CNN news on you tube.6 Million American Muslims are converts.You think Osama and Sadam are our leaders.You know how dangerous a little knowledge could be.You guys have only right to say whatever you wanna say.Strike our nerves, hurt our feelings, provoke us, ignite us and we have no right to react as we are gays not men standing here.We can eat Buddhists raw but Allah and his prophet prohibited us in many ways and taught us to be calm and patient.I don't give a rat's SS for half brained jack SS.This is free speech.¦#39;When dogs bite us,we don¦#39;t bite them in exchange.It¦#39;s their nature to bite.You might have heard the phrase ¦quot;Barking Dogs Seldom Bite¦quot; and world goes on,heading towards Armageddon,sounds bitter but true,you believe it or not, not necessary.In the future, better find some Islamic scholars to discuss with.I don¦#39;t shoot words to shut your mouth.Muslims will shine again.Jesus Christ,we call him ¦quot;Isa bin Maryam¦quot; will return after Mehdi one day (Quran) as he was never crucified my friend.The day Abid will look down on his/her corpse the one who insults my religion Islam on Judgement Day after Resurrection and smile. AMEN.You can follow me on(wiedersehen404@gmail.com)
21:28 September 19, 2012 by alimughal

yes brother u r right about the concept and about what Quran says is IF SOMEONE KILLS ONE INNOCENT HUMAN, KILLS ALL THE HUMANITY.

I want to tell u all here that I am a graduate of Chalmers University of Tech Sweden and have lived here for 4 years now, the only problem is its always the people fighting not the leaders so we are being used by the so called presidents and prime ministers of the world, Am from Pakistan and u can check it from any news that in pakistan there isnt any violence over this issue just simple protest but my country is being bombed by US drones for the 10 years now innocent people die daily, who attacked Afghanistan Iraq only US n yet nothing was found there now u will say 911 but i must tell u that it was just a justification to get resources by getting into countries ........... no muslim did that .... its just power politics of big cooperate houses to control n gain more wealth of the world so that we act as slaves,,,,,

who has biggest weapons industry in the world USA not any other and if u want to sell ur weapons u need markets wars so u do things like this so that people fight and to produce these weapons u need resources. Here by \\ u\\ means presidents and elites of the world ....

so its just POWER HUNGER GAMES which people dont understand n then they fight have u ever seen any leaders fighting the answer is NO big NO because they know what they are doing ......... and still all of u having hatred for muslims, they should study the Quran first and still if u feel that muslims are bad they are the only ones responsible for bloodshed and wars n fighting n must be killed

so that the world be a peaceful place then u are badly mistaken but even if that makes u happy then u are already killing muslims all around the world n can keep on doing but remember that world cannot be peaceful as the first crusade was launched by western christians on the eastern christians, u can go n check true history not tormented one !!!

I have a question for all having bad feelings for muslims, did any muslim make any film against any religion or god of urs? I hope n know that the answer is certainly NO

tc all
21:44 September 19, 2012 by Kennneth Ingle
The hate being expressed, in these posts and in the streets of many countries, is just what the troublemakers wanted. Why on earth does anybody, who can think clearly, fall for such tricks?

As for those who keep bringing up the Holocaust, please check your facts first. According to figures published in 1939, 5.5 Million Jews were living in Europe.

I am not good at maths, nor a profi historian, but somebody must be wrong. As to those who keep refering to the Germans as Nazis, prewar elections show that the majority never were. Although upset, when people make such false accusations, few would resort to violence.
22:13 September 19, 2012 by tercel
@ 20:29 September 19, 2012 21:13 September 19, 2012 by wiedersehen404

I have to admit your al-Taqiyya knows no bounds.

Now for some real facts, 80 million Hindus were slaughtered and 20 million mostly women sold in moslem slave markets during the invasion and 1400 year illegal occupation of India. What did the people of India do to deserve this? They were just polytheists and mohammed said, kill all polytheists.

Islam mandates death for non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state who mention "something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), or Islam" ('Umdat al-Salik, o11.10), and such laws go back to passages in the Hadith and Sira in which Muhammad orders the murders of people who have insulted him, including Abu ¦#39;Afak, who was over one hundred years old, and the poetess ¦#39;Asma bint Marwan. Abu ¦#39;Afak was killed in his sleep, in response to Muhammad's question, ¦quot;Who will avenge me on this scoundrel?¦quot; Similarly, Muhammad on another occasion cried out, ¦quot;Will no one rid me of this daughter of Marwan?¦quot; One of his followers, ¦#39;Umayr ibn ¦#39;Adi, went to her house that night, where he found her sleeping next to her children. The youngest, a nursing babe, was in her arms. But that didn¦#39;t stop ¦#39;Umayr from murdering her and the baby as well. Muhammad commended him: ¦quot;You have done a great service to Allah and His Messenger, ¦#39;Umayr!¦quot; (Ibn Ishaq, 674-676)

Then there was Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf. Muhammad asked: "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" One of the Muslims, Muhammad bin Maslama answered, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" When Muhammad said that he would, Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab)." Muhammad responded: "You may say it." Muhammad bin Maslama duly lied to Ka'b, luring him into his trap, and murdered him. (Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, book 59, number 369

more below
22:43 September 19, 2012 by nstaubach

WTH......u had those berries again? buahahaha :D
22:56 September 19, 2012 by tercel
With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from 'Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn 'Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

The Islamic world is running a protection racket against the entire Western world. We are supposed to stay in line and pay up, or we can get hurt.

The part of Guido and his tommy gun is played by the ¦quot;Muslim street¦quot;, that amorphous mass of people in the Middle East, South Asia, and more recently the working class neighborhoods of Europe. When the word about the latest outrage against Islamic dignity goes out through the mosques on Friday, the faithful are predictably offended, and they take to the streets to loot and burn whatever is required of them by the imams.

So don¦#39;t get out of line. Don¦#39;t interfere with the Muslims, don¦#39;t neglect to pay the ¦quot;insurance premiums¦quot;, and above all don¦#39;t diss the Prophet.

@ 21:44 September 19, 2012 by Kennneth Ingle

It's not just the European jews but also those living in Russia you must count.

@ 22:43 September 19, 2012 by nstaubach

Rather have those berries then then be covered in a mountain of al-Taqiyya by wiedersehen404
23:04 September 19, 2012 by sirifarif
Hi there,

Freedom of speach is what you want, than why you have laws that prevent people from speaking about Holocaust.

When America do drone attacks in pakistan, and when they takes actions against Usama bin Laden in Pakistan , So they give the argument that Pakistan land was used from attacks on Americans in Afghanistan.

So why these people hurt the emotions of Muslim people while they are sitting in America, America soil is used for these filthy things.

These man should be given punishement (severe punishment), otherwise worse will happen to them.

Here I narrat a fact that Governer of one of the province in Pakistan (Punjab) was killed by his own security card, as he had spoken some bad words about the blasphemy law of Pakistan. So if Muslim can kill another muslim for the same reason, than What will hapen to people from other religions?
23:25 September 19, 2012 by Gustav Jung
Sounds good Germany - get rid of one brand of anti-semitism accompanied by extreme suffering and death, and then substitute another brand 70 years later. Must be progress!
23:29 September 19, 2012 by nstaubach
Banning the film is exactly following the constitution of Germany.

3.1.1 Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar (Art. 1 Abs. 1 Grundgesetz)

German Muslims are Germans first and than Muslims, they are free to practice any religion and they are free to make their concerns know. So if they say this stuff is unacceptable and it hurts their feelings, being civilized it is bound on us that it should be avoided in future. If anyone does this thing from here onwards, will be surely counted as an act of provoking and definitely provoking is forbidden in our constitution. So please all those confused idiots, don't mix it up with free speech!
02:09 September 20, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
The right to freedom of expression is not an absolute right. Quoting from Wikepedia from Article 19 of the Human Declaration of Human Rights which is pretty much in line with how the ECHR would view things.

'The right to freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the ICCPR states that "[e]veryone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". Article 19 goes on to say that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".[1][2]

I think the restriction of this stupid video could be argued to be justified as protection of public order due to the fanatics we have in our society. Not bowing down to them in any way but for peace sake stuff the stupid video.
02:19 September 20, 2012 by mike_1983
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
03:54 September 20, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Berlin fuer alles

"not bowing down to them in any way" ? Of course its completely caving in do the muslim threat of violence. And when the next video comes out or the next cartoon or the next critique of muslim behavior comes round it will be that much harder to take a stand against the blackmail of threatened or implied threat of violence. The precedence will be that in order to placate islam we forfeited our right to free speech the last time so there is little difference in doing so again. The slippery slope is slippery indeed.
03:54 September 20, 2012 by marimay
Get real, Mike. Paranoid nit-wit.
04:03 September 20, 2012 by kellyvanrijn
Go ahead and play the film? What can happen, why worry? There shouldn't be any problems. After all, islam is the 'religion of peace'.
04:33 September 20, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
@onlythetruth. I agree with you but am just pointing out our government has reserved the power to block such freedom in the interests of public order. Not bowing to these zombies in any way but in the interests of public order the movie can be restricted but our governments should make it clear that this is the only reason it is being done. After all, we share the planet with fundamentalist zombies of all creeds and for the greater good in these limited circumstances limit access to this movie. It is not bowing down, it is merely giving the wailing baby a lollipop in order to shut da F#*k up.
06:12 September 20, 2012 by IchBinKönig
'After all, we share the planet with fundamentalist zombies of all creeds and for the greater good'

This is the same dead horse you're always jumping up and down on. b;ah blah blah. where are all these fundamentalist zombies of 'other creeds' you speak of? Where is the violence?

If you don;t have a rock solid example of these misdeeds by these 'other creeds' Shut the F#*k up already. Its getting tired. The topic at hand is about violence caused by free speech.
09:34 September 20, 2012 by antymat
New Appeasement? And freedom of speech as a new Czechoslovakia? Germans should know better.
11:01 September 20, 2012 by raandy
IchBinKönig I see your back on those steroids, bro, but you are absolutely correct, LOL
11:58 September 20, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Berlin fuer alles

Surrender of the right of free speech is too high a price to quiet this very spoiled adolescent. It needs to be taught how to behave in mixed company.

Censorship is a giant step on the path to enslavement and would be a big mistake. Concern about the deleterious effects of an increasingly aggressive islamic minority isn't islamophobia, its islamorealism.
12:17 September 20, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed
@mike_1983 and @tercel

Well said!!
12:27 September 20, 2012 by septiSeverus

Free speech did not cause the violence. A major contributing factor is the lack of respect, tolerance by believers of faith, followers and the ignorant.

I have not read, seen or heard of any reports of the so called fundamentalist zombies that are protesting, burning in effigy or insulting the names or images of the Christian or Hebrew Prophets and messengers of peace?

Where is the violence? The fundamentalist zombies of other creeds, can also be found in Christianity and Judaism.
13:41 September 20, 2012 by gnuk-meke
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
14:06 September 20, 2012 by diggerdagger
Strafgesetzbuch §166

14:10 September 20, 2012 by trevzns
What are the moral or rational reasons for making such a disrepectfull film?

In most of the Western world, Freedom and freedom of speech is not free, its a privilege. And, with the privileges of Freedom comes individual and social responsibility.
14:23 September 20, 2012 by raandy
septiSeverus It has been recently documented that the riots ,death and destruction in Libya was al Qaeda, with a former Guantanamo inmate involved.

I assume these are the zoombies .

When someone insults you, that does not give you the right to kill and destroy.You can try to mollify this but I doubt many people will suscribe to your way of thinking.
15:56 September 20, 2012 by randamurtada
I'm so tired of all the RACISM... everyone is free (except muslims) respect everyone (except muslims) respect all religions (except islam) women should wear anything they want to (except hijab) all languages are a type of art (except arabic) dont stereotype (all muslims are terrorists)... it's exhausting! yes some "muslims" are terrorists, some are crazy, some are wild party animals, some are nice, some are weird, some are stuck up & so on... just like any other group of people... how about saying "Bin Ladin is a terrorist" & not "all muslims"... why are you judging more than 1.5 BILLION individuals through the actions of 1? EVEN IF there are 1 million muslim terrorists out there, there are still more than 1.5 BILLION muslims who are not! could we please start trying to just live peacefully? accept that we're all different... seriously i don't know how i'll teach my kids about right & freedom when people dont respect our rights & freedom...
16:15 September 20, 2012 by trevzns

I am not attempting to pacify this issue. There is a serious disconnect and not to mention, a double standard regarding respect and tolerance of Islam and their Prophet. In Western society and specificity in Germany and in the US, it is not tolerated and is illegal to make negative or insulting comments regarding the Holocaust, Judaism or Christianity. Is Islam not a religion?

The Christian and Hebrew most celebrated Prophet of Freedom Moses, committed horrible crimes against unarmed old men, old women, and young girls which are recoded in their books of truth, peace and love.

Why not make a short true story film of the Prophet Moses violent activities to mollify the other Zombies?
16:15 September 20, 2012 by Eastard
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
16:22 September 20, 2012 by gnuk-meke
@randamurtada - I have nothing against the hijab. I think it is very pretty and makes a woman beautiful! However, I am against the Burga. It should be banned/taxed/fined or some form of illegalization.
16:38 September 20, 2012 by venu
Free Speech and Freedom will prevail and is ABOVE ALL
16:48 September 20, 2012 by raandy
trevzns ok, but who has control over some melt down that makes a video or publishes an insulting caricature of some ones faith or family.You can not go off and blame a Nation or a religion because of this, no more than I can blame all Muslims for the acts of Osama Bin Laden.

I remain committed to my stance that this was way out of line, there is no justification in killing the USA ambassador or others that were not in any way involved with the making or publishing of this insulting video.My feelings were that this was stirred up by Al Qaeda, who are a very poor representative of Islam.
16:50 September 20, 2012 by randamurtada
@gnuk-meke thanks, I really appreciate it, but you should see how people stare at me... & they don't stop, I'm not the type to stare back I think it's rude. As for the Burqa, it does place restriction on women & I'm against forcing it on women, but if a woman chooses to wear it, it's her life, her choice, so her right. I don't like excessive piercings/tattoos, but that doesn't mean they should be banned.
17:42 September 20, 2012 by raandy
tercel are you a falconer?? when you are not quoting scripture.
17:49 September 20, 2012 by Englishted
As it was in the beginning so shall it be at the end.

"should Germany demand toleration of offence in the name of free speech? Have your say. "

Here is my say YES
18:21 September 20, 2012 by Kharabish
Thanks to all , the comments and the questionnaire itself reflect that actually Islam is and will prevail , always Islamophobia brings more and more converters to Islam and that's why it's the fastest growing religion world wide, check Wikipedia.
18:29 September 20, 2012 by theibmsstate
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
20:01 September 20, 2012 by Englishted
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
20:19 September 20, 2012 by tercel
What if there was one historical figure that just simply could not be lampooned?  I¦#39;m not talking about a George Orwell book now.  I¦#39;m talking about reality.  What if people in the free world, who had the right to free speech, would not dare lampoon this figure, because so many people on the planet had become brainwashed into thinking he was a "prophet"?  Maybe this seems just too mind-numblingly absurd to even entertain, but what if -- what if the fear that these people would be offended, and then hurt you, or kill you, kept everyone silent -- kept everyone afraid to poke fun at the imaginary holy man and to shudder in fear at the thought of exercising their right to free speech?

Is there even a word for something so absurd, so incredibly ridiculous?  In fact there is.  It is called being "Sharia-compliant."

That is what western Europe will soon be and what moslems want the rest of the entire world to be. Think of it -- the entire world ruled by a set of 7th century intolerant laws handed down by an invisible being that NO ONE has ever seen or talked to. Mohammed never talked directly to allah and allah never talked directly to mohammed, the qur'an was handed down to mohammed second hand by a supposed angel or was it a jinn?

@ 17:42 September 20, 2012 by raandy

no I am not a falconer, but I do admire the tercel. I only post scripture when moslems quote their scripture out of context which they do most of the time.
20:21 September 20, 2012 by theibmsstate
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
21:50 September 20, 2012 by septiSeverus

Muslims oil... most of the Arabs now living in Northern Africa, the Sinai-Africa-West Asia, what is now called the Middle East?

Most of the population in the region are decent of European Squatters, Western Asians and Ottoman Empire Caretakers of African resources as a result of Colonization and the spoils of war claimed by the Conquers from Europe and the USA after WWII.
22:48 September 20, 2012 by PNWDev
@wiedersehen404 (#48)

I find it comical that you ask such elementary questions about Christianity under the belief that your questions do not have answers. Just because you are confused, does not mean the rest of us are. As I was preparing to answer your questions one-by-one, I came up with a better idea. Rather than answer your simpleton questions on what Christians believe, I decided to let you continue to believe your silly questions stump us all in the hope that you will post them again on other sites so others like us here have the fortunate opportunity to see what a complete fool you are.

But you are off the hook, because just when I began to believe your post was the most uninformed post I have ever read, along comes @theibmsstate (#90) to bail you out and take your place in the stupidity corner. For that you owe him a nice dinner.


You can thank your buddy @theibmsstate for finding a topic that I actually agree with you on. Prior to his post, I was sure the only chance you and I would ever agree on anything would require hell to freeze over first. And guess what? Yup, it is frozen, and guess who is buried under its ice?
00:05 September 21, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Just wondering. How much does it cost to worship he who must not be mentioned? It is getting kind of pricey here in Germany to be a Christian. http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120920-45097.html
02:57 September 21, 2012 by Eric1
Leftist and Muslim extremist have lots in common. They both want to control people, what they do and say.
07:19 September 21, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
09:07 September 21, 2012 by gnuk-meke

Great point. If UK were behaving like the uncivilized people then they would have invaded France/Italy over the Duchess photos.

In UK, you will find lots of Pakistani families with 10+ kids.
09:27 September 21, 2012 by mike_1983
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
09:38 September 21, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed
A small correction from my previouse post in this thread. I meant to type:

.....It is not because people are getting enlightened by the teachings of Koran.....
10:52 September 21, 2012 by gnuk-meke

Lot of people won't see what you are seeing. They will realize it only when the temples and church steeples start becoming minarets. At that point it is too late.
10:59 September 21, 2012 by akhan
Where is freedom of speech?

1. Wiki leaks

2. Why courts order not to publish katmidelton topless pictures

Recent Wars

war casualties in iraq and afghanistan, massacre in sabra and shattela camps, massacre in bosnia.

1. what happend to moros in spain

2. what did itly in lybia

3. what did france in north arfica

4. what did holland in indonesia

5. what did england in united india in 1957

6. who is responsible for world war1 and 2

7. who is responsible for Hiroshima and nagasaki
13:52 September 21, 2012 by zeddriver

I do not like racism either. I know very few Americans that say 'ALL" of Islam is to blame. Even on Fox news it is normal to hear "the radical sect or terrorists" before any discussion about the violence in the Middle East. And I do correct those that say Islam in general. So I guess you are a victim of propaganda from the other side. But, One of the frustrations that we in the West have. Is a perceived lack of trying (by the moderate Muslims) to rid Islam of those radicals that are giving Islam a bad name. It's easy for a moderate to say something from a free country. But the good Islamic people need to clean up their own from within the Islamic countries. When any outsider does it. It's seen as an attack on ALL Muslims. I have asked and will continue to ask the moderate Muslims. What is your solution? The only thing close to an answer was from a radical on this forum that espouses the extermination of ALL infidels. So, At some point in time. More and more non-Muslims WILL start to think that all Muslims are the same as the terrorists. That would be sad and unfair.

From your post, "seriously i don't know how i'll teach my kids about right & freedom when people dont respect our rights & freedom"

Really? Do you live in a non-Muslim country? Many Muslims do. That in it's self is pretty amazing and open minded compared to what would face a non-Muslim in some Islamic countries. I see plenty of women wearing head coverings. I haven't witnessed any violence upon them.

@trevzns #78

From your post, In Western society and specificity in Germany and in the US, it is not tolerated and is illegal to make negative or insulting comments regarding the Holocaust, Judaism or Christianity.

You may want to google controversial religious art in the USA. And especially "p**s christ. It was a piece of art made by an American. He took a small crucifix of Jesus and sealed it in a jar filled with his own urine. People did protest. But he was not killed for his 'art" And to educate you. There are no 'laws" against negative comments about religion in the US.
16:16 September 21, 2012 by Englishted
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
08:30 September 22, 2012 by Aasvogel
The worst reason for limiting free expression is fear; fear of the repercussions.

Any compromise on free speech, any compromise on liberty in the hope it will gain a few moments of security is naïve.

Those who would sacrifice any amount of liberty for a perceived gain in security deserve neither.

Free speech, however ugly, however hurtful, is essential if liberty is to prevail over tyranny.

It is a stupid film but it must be allowed.
10:34 September 22, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed
@theibmsstate #87

"...when PAKISTAN stop NATO tankers and food and other stuff then they didnt have tissue papar to clean their asses..."

Remember Berlin Airlift....we supported an entire city. That was a long time ago.

If NATO is giving Pakistan money for the tankers to pass, it is so because you guys can buy some food and toilet paper to clean your asses.

We can do better than Berlin airlift to support the troops in Afghanistan.
20:01 September 22, 2012 by kaydays
There is a lot of hate here...it disgusts me
20:39 September 22, 2012 by randamurtada
@zeddriver The solution in my opinion is educating MUSLIMS about Islam! Unfortunately in many Middle Eastern countries (for instance Egypt before the revolution), educating about Islam was not only "banned" but any man with a beard / women wearing a burqa was usually in fear of being put in prison for a lifetime! This easily gave the chance for groups with bad intent to preach whatever they wanted about Islam & people believed them because they had no other source of information. The culture itself became quite violent because of all the oppression. But education is always a key solution. I know "Discover Islam" (a UK based Islamic organization) will be visiting Egypt soon, that might actually.

There's also the fact that the media usually associates the word the word "Muslim" with the word "terrorism".

I live in Germany, & for the first month or so my daughter kept asking why people are staring at me.I explained that I look different & they're surprised; I also made her understand that if she stared at people who look or act different they'll be uncomfortable too. It was good because it gave me a chance to explain what diversity means & that we should respect people's choices; but it still makes me VERY uncomfortable.

but have you seen the number of people commenting on this post who are being offensive? some people just do it for the hell of it, which is annoying on a whole new level. It's a general rule really, any given group of people is diverse within itself; no matter how large or small this group is. Stereotyping is just wrong...
20:43 September 22, 2012 by simski
1) Religion is stupid, as is getting offended about it.

2) People making videos like that are terrible human beings.

3) The violent protests are instigated by al-Qaeda and politically motivated.

Now can we please stop wasting our time?
21:28 September 22, 2012 by Englishted
@ randamurtada,

What possible reason do you dress to stand out ,it is not religious it is cultural so change your dress and then people will not stare .

If you can't why not ?.
07:45 September 23, 2012 by singer786
i think there is one problem, liberal exterimism and religious exterimism, both are dangrous for society.
10:31 September 23, 2012 by zeddriver

Thank you.

"But education is always a key solution. I know "Discover Islam" (a UK based Islamic organization) will be visiting Egypt soon"

Lets hope that maybe they could instill a little moderation in Islamic education.
13:06 September 23, 2012 by trevzns

I stand corrected and I will attempt to clarify my statements.

The US is one of the few Countries where freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of expression have few restrictions. Regarding this topic, most US Americans are a bit more tolerant and respectful of religion.

I did google the crucifix in a jar. However in Avignon, France, no one died, but some Christians were not so tolerant. Despite the security guards assigned to protect the artwork at the gallery, a group of Christian protesters destroyed the crucifix photo.

Most people and religious Institutions do not respond well to criticism and humor directed at their beliefs...real or fictional.
18:52 September 23, 2012 by randamurtada
@Englishted I wear a headscarf, apart from that i wear regular clothes, jeans & a shirt just like anyone else...
21:13 September 23, 2012 by Jazzineva
If this particular film had some level of cultural, intellectual or artistic merit of ANY kind, I might tend to go for the free speech argument. But it was done only for the purpose of inciting hatred against an entire religion and provoking outrage. I was pleased to learn that some countries have laws against inciting hatred and feel that's a fair limit on free speech. Just like one should not yell "Fire" in a crowded theater or purposely lie to slander an individual, purposefully inciting religious hatred is beyond just disgusting. It may be a gray area but I support Germany's decision. I also wish everyone would simply condemn and then widely ignore this stupid video or film or whatever it actually is and stop lending it so much undue attention. Let's go for peace and calm!
22:19 September 23, 2012 by andromeda1177
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
00:18 September 24, 2012 by zeddriver

I certainly hope and prey that your scenario does not come to pass. And that the good folks on both sides see the danger in not addressing the radical element in Islam.

I'm not so sure I would question the resolve of the west though. We can and will get really nasty. Because, right now we really haven't unleashed the dogs in the middle east.

At this point in time. The west is trying to dance around and get the bad guys while trying to limit as much as possible any "collateral damage". But if the people of the west feel backed into a corner. You can rest assured that the partisan politics will quickly disappear and the population will support a scorched earth policy. Also remember that China, Russia, And Europe will then realize that they would also be threatened by an Islamic world war. Yes there might be 1.5 billion Muslims. But there are 7 billion people on earth and 5.5 billion of them aren't Muslim.

Remember. America was slow to anger and enter into WWI, WWII. And we were even slow to get fully involved in Frances problems in Vietnam. But the American people didn't see Vietnam as a real threat like the politicians did. And as such. The politicians were reticent to go at it full force as they didn't have the full support of the people. We were doing the dancing around thing and trying surgical attacks.

But again. I would most certainly prefer a peaceful solution.
07:38 September 24, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed

Well said.

I am very confused about Western religions. Why do you hate each other so much? I can understand why other religions hate Islam and its followers. Why do you (Christians and Muslims) hate Jewish people?

If your Prophets came from the same lineage, why hate each other to the point that you want to kill the other on site? Don¦#39;t your religions teach you to look for the enemy within yourself?
08:00 September 24, 2012 by stopislam
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
08:25 September 24, 2012 by Dicken-Mohmed

....America was slow to anger and enter into WWI, WWII. ....Perfect wussies! You entered both the wars in the last quarter when everyone were exhausted. This discussion is for another time and day.


Every religion, other than Islam, has a different psyche. All religions respect and adopt nicer aspects of other religions into them. If you don¦#39;t adapt it is no big deal. Islam is the only one that will not adapt but want you to adapt to its ways. If you don¦#39;t adapt to its ways the only choice is death or leave your homeland. There is one thing I do like about Islam is that the prayer session. They pray together without any racial, caste, social status types of discrimination. This is one thing in Islam that other religions can adopt into their religions.
12:51 September 24, 2012 by gnuk-meke
Some of the sensible comments without any hate are removed as "breach of our terms". I think this site is hacked OR this website does not want to hear the concerns of the majority. There goes freedom of speech.
12:55 September 24, 2012 by zeddriver

I only mentioned the past in response to andromeda1177's deleted post. And I do believe it's valid. Our leaders WANTED to get in the fight much earlier. But the citizens felt that it was not our fight. Until sufficiently provoked.

As for your post #116. It's so complex it would take a collage course to learn where it went wrong. I'm certainly no expert. I think the main point of Christians about the Jewish. Is that they (the Jewish) do not believe that Jesus has yet come for the first time and are still in the "old testament" waiting for him to come. Christians believe Jesus has already come and died for their sins.

I always try and break it down to simple concepts as I'm a simple person. It mostly comes down to lusting for power and money between the flesh & blood leaders of the various religions. And remember. For many hundreds or thousands of years. The people within a religion got ALL their religious teachings from a leader of that church. Most could not read. Printing was not yet around. All it took to lead the people astray (in any religion) was for a person without honor that had a leadership position in a church to teach false things.


All of us are born without hate and racism. It is learned from those around us who would teach it to the innocent children, our parents, religious leaders, political leaders.
14:57 September 24, 2012 by XFYRCHIEF
Just thinking - if "anti-blasphemy" laws are created, and given the definition of blasphemy: "A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.", then isn't the Qu'an blasphemous towards other religions? Or is it OK to preach hatred towards others, as long as it is done for holy reasons? I guess, I'll just stick with the simplest law of all - do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Seems to work for me.
20:02 September 24, 2012 by T Gonzaga
There is one question I haven't yet seen asked. Why is the focus solely on the insult to Islam perpetrated by the producer/director of this film and the West? After all, this film sat unnoticed in hyperspace for two months. Those who duplicated, translated to Arabic and disseminated this video in the Middle East for their own political causes are also guilty of the same crime against Islam. Why are these "accessories after the fact" not being condemned as well...hippocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:32 September 27, 2012 by 50ftqueenie18
And Merkel tells us not to be concerned about Muslims living in Germany? They, the liberal elite fear them so much that they are trying to take away our freedom of speech!

Tell me again, why we are suppose to hate the Nazis?
08:10 September 28, 2012 by arbeitsbiene3
@ 50ftqueenie18 #123

What does hating the Nazis have to do with Muslims or this discussion?
10:15 September 28, 2012 by Steve1949
After watching this film finally, today the 28th of Sept. I didn't find the film all that bad other than the film is crap. I've seen just as bad or worse from Hollywood. Certainly nothing that should have people killing and burning over this joke of a film.
22:39 September 28, 2012 by Edward Teach
Warum hat unsere Regierung ließ diese Menschen (Muslime) in unserem Land? Sie (die Regierung) nie fragte die Leute (us), wie wir über Vermietung Muslime in sie taten es gerade gegen unseren Willen zu spüren. Die Leute sagen zu deportieren.

Why did our government let those people(muslims) in our country? They( the government) never asked the people(us) how we felt about letting muslims in they just did it against our will. The people say deport.
00:04 September 29, 2012 by arbeitsbiene3
@ Edward Teach #126

Warum hat unsere Regierung ließ diese Menschen (Muslime) in unserem Land?

Why did our government let those people(muslims) in our country?

If you have to ask warum-why?

The German people and its WWII Government at the end of WWII were defeated....conquered and unconditionally surrendered.

You should consider more studying of German history, about 275 years ago leading up to WWI, WWII and the 1960s and the German governments agreement with Turkey. That agreement was typical of post WWII geopolitics in Europe and Germany.

Post WWII Germany has recovered and prospered from its defeat and its due to the German people and the diversity of the non-German peoples.... maybe thats why?
14:30 September 29, 2012 by Sastry.M
The greatest crime committed by predominant people of Christian faith as the Germans is the acclaimed antisemitic Holocaust during WW2 If freedom of speech and expression of one's views are democratically guaranteed in the west, why a few odd people who deny its occurrence and demand impartial investigation based on the strength of recorded evidence be hounded and denied the chance by the Authority wuth its infallible evidence and disprove the claims of those paranoid deniers?
00:55 September 30, 2012 by Edward1970
Censorship should not be on religious or political grounds it should only be on common social requirements.

We all have to conform to our society, there are rules we have to follow, there is no free lunch but if we are to consider ourselves a free society we must be free to make our own judgements.

If you bother to watch this video clip it is a satire in poor taste and I was unable to stand more than a few minutes of it, the only reason that so many people have seen it is due to the organized hate campaign that has been mounted against it by Muslims

All people must follow the laws of the country that they choose to live in, if in all conscience you are unable to do this then you must leave and go and live in a country where the laws are those that you can obey
11:56 September 30, 2012 by cynicoren
1.5 Billion Muslims are not the problem. Islam is not the problem.

This number for itself is insignificant for this matter - There is almost no terror from asian muslims (Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in the world, never heard of an Indo terrorist), nor from most below-the-equator Africa.

The problem lies in those middle eastern countries, and to the east of it - Syria to Pakistan. Their goverments let the extremist be. Syria and Iran are (Syria were...) the largest exporters of terror in the world.

Have you ever questioned yourselfs - so many Muslim countries, how many of them are democracies, or something close to that? You'll find that number very close to zero.So there's something wrong with that, I just can't put my finger on the problem - Is it the faith itself? Is it the people who follow it? Don't know.

About the fact that it is the fastest growing religion - well, no offence, but cancer is growing rapidly too. Both are choices of lifestyle.The fact that it is growing does not prove a thing, certainly not that it is "True". After all, it is clearly based on older mono religions, so If I had to choose i'd take Judaism or Christinanity before Islam .

For the claim that Muslims don't attack others - well, that is ignorance. Tell me how many Churches or Synaguges were built in the last 3 years in those Muslim states. And ho many Musques were built in non-muslim countries? Hundreds. It is not for the lack of Jews or Christians in their countries - Muslim states generally forbid building these. And another fact - someone here states that Christians slaughtered Muslims.I guess he doesn't know that most Muslims are killed by... Muslims, on religeous basis. Shiits kill Sunnies and vice versa - that's Iraq, for example, then Gaza, Lebanon, etc.

They teach in Syria, Gaza, Egypt and Lebanon that Jews are the devils, that they slaughter innocent muslims - and they this starts in kindergarten classes. They have anti Jewish (sorry, anti Zionist) movies and series produced each year. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is still a major hit in these countries.

So can they tell us what to say and how to behave? How can anti-democrats tell the democrats how to use democracy?
14:11 September 30, 2012 by nirmal
Freedom and Freedom of Speech in the West

1. A nun can cover herself from head to toe = devoted to God. A muslim woman does the same = Brain washed and suppressed.

2. A western woman leaves her job and stays at home to raise her kids = a loving and sacrificing mother who is respected by all. A muslim does the same = suppressed by her husband.

3. A girl wears provocative, cleavage revealing, short clothes to school = Freedom, A muslim wears a head scarf = should be banned.

4. A western soldier flies all the way to another country and kills ppl = Hero. A muslim protects his children in the occupied land of palestine = Terrorist.

5. A christian attacks and kills a group of innocent ppl = mentally ill or a criminal (no religion mentioned). A muslim does that = it's islam's fault.

6. If a western person does a mistake = his/her fault. A muslim does a mistake = Islam's fault.

7. Insulting a religion and a prophet and making fun of the believes of muslims = freedom of speech. Just questioning the Holocaust = criminal act.

8. Killing westerns (even in other lands) = a crime. Killing civilians in Iraq = Collateral damage.

9. Imprisoning a western drug smuggler or a sex offender in any arab land = We are being targeted. Imprisoning thousands of ppl without any trial or evidence in Guantanamo = security measure.

That is freedom of speech in your land.
14:49 September 30, 2012 by freechoice
Any religion which can be easily insulted is not really worth persuing and can be easily discarded in restmull. Because it is man made.
22:48 September 30, 2012 by gnuk-meke
@akhan #100

¦quot;war casualties in iraq and afghanistan, massacre in sabra and shattela camps, massacre in bosnia.¦quot;

and @nirmal #131 with long list of items

Do you have any proof for these things that happened? Where is the evidence? Isn't that muslims killing muslims?

@cynicoren #130

It is very likely that you will be banned from this site for pointing out your concerns. You presented your concerns very well just like @andromeda1177 did in posting #114. Freedom of speech seems to be selective on this website.

To paraphrase @andromeda ¦quot;The Muslim community will use the local policies against the local community to implement Sharia law in that land.¦quot;

Apples do rot from the inside out.
20:44 October 1, 2012 by septiSeverus
@ cynicoren So can they tell us what to say and how to behave? How can anti-democrats tell the democrats how to use democracy?

Presently in the Federal Republic of Germany, freedom of speech and freedom of expression has restrictions. As for the Federal Republic of the USA, democracy and freedom of religion....for whom? The Christian, Jewish and Islamic slave owners and their descendants created civil right laws to modify the quasi Apartheid laws that existed in the USA. Whether it was 140 years or 48 years ago, human rights and civil rights issues still exist for many people and woman in the USA.

On what moral or social standing can American, European, Arab or Islamic governments lecture on religion and human rights? What is the difference between a reforming oppressor, enslaver and that of a unreformed oppressive enslaver? All have past and present traditions of sexism and bigotry. The justification for crimes committed against humanity is fulfillment of ancient unverifiable religious stories.

If a supreme being created all there is and one human race, why select a chosen group of people to oppress and enslave other human beings?

What is pernicious and reprehensible, the elaborate charade of western religious traditions and ideology that retard critical thinking and human progress.
13:05 October 2, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
WOW. 134 comments. TL really got lots of mileage out of this one. Good for the advertising revenue. The usual islamophobia or Euro Crisis are good traffic volume generators. Keep em rollin'. Don't let real news get in the way whatever you do TL.
23:31 October 2, 2012 by nirmal

Your media does not talk about these things extensively and tries to hid such facts as Wech Baghtu wedding party attack.. go and google before asking me for evidence.. there are many incidents.. specially in Afghanistan and Iraq.. just two weeks ago Nato forces killed 8 women in Afghanistan.. but of course you never read about that.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19616356
00:17 October 3, 2012 by septiSeverus
@ Berlin fuer alles

...WOW. ...LOL.

It has always been about revenue and the fantasy to believe. The attempts to justify copy, paste and reinvent versions of religion and world history...is WOW, LOL.
01:28 October 3, 2012 by zeddriver

At least I will say that we in the west have not been perfect and have made lots of mistakes. I think we need to leave the middle east. Of course. I don't think the Taliban nor Al qaeda want the west out. Because if the west leaves and terrorist attacks continue. Well then. That would clearly show it really wasn't our presence that was the issue.


#1 A nun chooses to wear her habit and does not HAVE to wear it away from the church. Islamic Sharia law demands that every women must by law cover up.

#2 who said that? A Muslim women must walk in a subservient manner several steps behind her husband, is not allowed to drive nor even be outside without said husband. What happens to an adulteress in the middle east under Sharia law?

#3 Most of the people on here said the girl in question was not dressed properly. Banning head scarves? No! It was a burka or full face covering.

#4 Apples to oranges. How about a radical Islamist that flies planes into buildings in another country= Hero in the middle east.

#5 I assume you mean Breivik. He is a xenophobe nationalist. The Christian bible states that non believers will be dealt with by God himself not us earthly mortals. So if a Christian kills in the name of God he proves that he is in fact NOT a Christian.

#6 The "mistake" made by a radical Muslim is usually preceded by yelling Allahu Akbar. Which kind of points directly at Islam.

#7 Google "piss Christ" Made by an American artist. Who wasn't killed or sent to jail. Questioning the Holocaust is not against the law every where in the west. I believe only Germany is it illegal.

#8 The US has in fact charged members of the military with murder for deliberately killing civilians in the middle east.

#9 Most people I know. Do not have a problem with another country dealing with a drug smuggler.

775 detainees have been brought to Guantanamo. Most of these have been released without charge. The United States government continues to classify many of these released detainees as "enemy combatants". As of September 2012, 166 detainees remain at Guantanamo. Thousands? Post #136 Heard it on Foxnews the very same day it was on the BBC. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/16/afghan-officials-say-8-women-killed-in-airstrike/
11:56 October 3, 2012 by nirmal
@ zeddriver

1. Have you ever been to arab or islamic countries? many if not the majority of women do not cover their heads.. you could visit let's say Kuwait, Emirates, Morocco, Egypt.. etc.. etc.. do not take and just for knowledge (which is surely biased due to the media). EVEN in Saudi arabia you could see women without a head scarf.. yes.. islam tells them to cover their heads.. no.. islam does not FORCE them to do that.. it is between them and God.. there is nowhere in the Quran or Sharia that says they should be punished or anything like that.. if something like that happens then that is due to cultural/tribal mentality of some men. IT HAS NOTHING to do with Islam. In fact according to Islam there is nothing like honour killing like what happens in some specific places like Jordan. I have no idea from which sources do you get the notion that Islamic Sharia law demands that every woman must by LAW cover up?? get me an islamic source.. not something written by a biased Christian or Jew or a non believer.

2. Again biased media.. there is nothing like that in Islam.. the only country where women do not drive is Saudi Arabia.. and just for your information.. Saudi law allows them to drive.. their husbands do not .. that will change with time.. you can not blame Islam for these tribal mentalities carried by them.. and you can not generalise things when ALL other islamic countries allow women to drive..!! There is nothing in islam about women walking behind their husband as well.. get your facts straight.. not from Murdoch Media..

3. http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/government/banning-hijab-anti-veil-laws-around-the-world/

That is an answer for your point. HEADSCARF is banned in many places in Europe.. read this article.. just for you information.. even in the middle east.. covering the face is not allowed in many places and jobs.. covering the face is again not in Quran or Sharia.. it is a cultural thing.. do not mix religion with culture..

4. A radical who flies a plane into buildings is not a Hero in the middle east.. i spent half my life in the middle east and I was there during the 9/11 attacks.. most of the ppl considered that to be awful.. IF you READ Quran yourself you would know that things like that are not allowed and even not tolerated.. a criminal is a criminal.. killing innocent ppl is not a part of Islam as the medial claims.. they always take half of a verse and put it to public.. when it says (if you are attacked then attack the non-believers) they just take the second half and show you (attack the non-believers).. I am sure many of you won't agree with that.. but read the Quran yourself.. don't let the media guide you with half truth..
11:59 October 3, 2012 by Placeholder
------------ ?
12:00 October 3, 2012 by nirmal

5. That is a stupid comment (sorry).. even Islam does not allow terrorist acts.. and God will deal with them as well.. but you never mention that in media.. you just say Islam is a religion of terrorism.. don't you? Why?

6. Stop watching movies!! Who told you so?? by the way Allahu Akbar means God is great.. which is true.. even a christian is supposed to say God is great!! It has nothing to do with your identity or religion.. God IS GREAT!!!

7. A list of so called FREE-SPEACH countries where holocaust denial is considered illegal or partially punishable: Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel (of course), Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, The Netherlands (partially), Poland, Portugal, Romania, Switzerland.. some of these countries just state (genocide) instead of Holocaust specifically to avoid criticism..

8. Seriously? It was only recently that ring leader of a group of US soldiers who killed three innocent Afghans for sport on different occasions and kept their body parts as trophies was given a term of imprisonment, with chance of parole in less than ten years, which means the beast could be out in even a year or two. JUSTICE? NO!!!

9. I agree.. but every time an american or european is caught in the middle east doing some crime they whole media back home starts a campaign demanding his or her release and claiming is innocence.. the embassy interferes.. all because it is in the middle east!!

Most of them release without charges.. hmmm.. because they were detained for long periods for no reason!! WHY? were they compensated? why were the detained at all?? just for fun?? are we allowed to detain a German in Riyadh for one year and then just release him without any charges? NO!! it is illegal even in the middle east!!
17:25 October 3, 2012 by zeddriver

Thanks for the reasoned response and civil tone. Something that has been lacking on both sides of the issue. I really try to look at things in a reasonable manor. I can't repeat it enough that there have been huge mistakes made by the west. I also think that huge mistakes have been made by moderate Muslims too.

Part of the problem has been the ongoing argument involving bits of information. I.E. Your 9 points of contention about the west. And my 9 counter points. Doesn't really solve anything does it? I assume you are Muslim. Your point of we in the west not having the "correct" information. With all of the oil money in the middle east why doesn't any moderate organization buy air time in the west? Why do the Muslim people seemingly flee from their countries to come to the west rather than try and work to fix their own country? Why won't the educated moderates fight for the freedom of their own people from the likes of the Taliban/ Al Qaeda?

I have asked other moderate Muslims on this site to give me "a westerner" a solution to the problems. I have had one answer. And that was that the moderates need to educate their young to what the real Islam is all about. That's great for the future. But we have big problems right now. It is my contention that Islam has to be cleaned up from within. So far no one has stepped up to the plate. And as long as Islam refuses to cleanse from within. Others will do it from outside. Which hasn't worked.

So I will ask you. (if you are Muslim and moderate) What is your solution?
19:55 October 3, 2012 by Onlythetruth

The problem is that muslims have given themselves permission to lie when dealing with non believers so how can we believe anything you have to say on this subject? It might very well be all part of some trick or subterfuge to hoodwink us into believing that there is a "moderate" islam when in reality there is only one form which aims to subjugate the rest of the world. With 22,000 muslims acts of terrorism since 9/11 this is not an academic question.
20:08 October 3, 2012 by nirmal
@ Onlythetruth I am not sure from where did you get the 22,000 thing... You do not have to believe me.. do not take my word for anything I said.. read the Quran and judge by yourself.. If you are unable to obtain one try the nearest islamic center or maybe you can get one at Amazon.. Read it and tell me if any of the claims the media makes is there in the Quran.. (including the 72 virgins lie which was instilled in your brains by a movie -> True Lies by Arnold).. and watch this.. in youtube

21:23 October 3, 2012 by Placeholder
21:41 October 3, 2012 by nirmal
@ zeddriver

Thanks for your respectful discussion.

Yes, I am a muslim.

I completely agree with you that there is a problem in the arab and islamic world. Almost all that you have mentioned is correct. The problem does not lie in Islam, it lies in the followers and the politicians.

Money is the number one reason for all the problems worldwide. Why do the arab leaders cling to their thrones? for wealth.. every single attack or act of terrorism has a political motive.. but how to convince someone to kill himself? by sugar coating everything under the name of islam and jihad.. it is like what kamikazes used to do.. at that time honour and respect were used for sugar coating the act..

politically motivated muslim leaders are brain washing young adults and using them..

solution? there is no simple answer to that.. but what is happening in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, Libya .. etc will spread slowly to other lands.. and that might bring a solution.. who knows..

It was nice to have a discussion with a respectful person like yourself..
22:13 October 3, 2012 by zeddriver

Thank you. I really do hope the folks pull their heads out of their bottoms and get on the right path. I fear it may not happen in my life time though. But then. I'm old.

I remember a guy once said.

If it weren't for the religious. Religion would be great.

Meaning the fire and brimstone zealot types tend to ruin it for everyone else. That goes for the politicians as well.
01:01 October 4, 2012 by gnuk-meke

In posting #136


In posting #139

…. 2. Again biased media……

It appears to me that you want to be selective with the media information you want to believe in. I won¦#39;t be surprised if you presented me a link with 9/11 as a western conspiracy and it was not hatched by the muslims against the west.

In posting #146

…I completely agree with you that there is a problem in the arab and islamic world. Almost all that you have mentioned is correct. The problem does not lie in Islam, it lies in the followers and the politicians….

This problem has existed for 1300 years since Islam has started. There has to be something to it. Repeatedly it is same pattern of behavior everywhere Islam went or wants to go.
20:30 October 4, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ nirmal

Read the Koran you say?

In the Koran the religion of peace commands:

8:39 (fight until the whole world submits to Islamic law); 9:5 (kill the Infidels wherever you find them again); 9:29 (fight the Jews and Christians until they submit and pay jizya); 47:4 (behead the Infidels).

As I understand it each muslim must take every word of the Koran as the divinely inspired world of God. Therefore its not hard to reach a judgement concerning Islam. The West has worked hard to drag itself out of the middle ages, why should it permit itself to be dragged back into them by primitives just for the sake of some cheap labor.
18:15 October 5, 2012 by nirmal
@ Onlythetruth

Now that is what I meant. People who are biased like you use the part of the Verse that serves their agenda. Why did not you quote the versus that precede the ones you wrote down here???

For example, before reaching 8:39 there are 38 more verses.. where are they? Allah explains in verse 8:15 (O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].) Which shows clearly that if someone is attacking you for battle then fight them.. 8:38 (Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place.) and them comes 8:39.. which is regarding the people who return to hostility.. (And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.) there is nothing like your half (fight until the whole world submits to Islamic Law) which is a usual lie from people like you who try to manipulate things.

9:5 is regarding a historical event that happened around 1400 years ago, the space here is not enough to write the whole story, I will give you the link to read the whole story behind it: http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp

47:4, you did the same thing here.. misquoting.. (So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.) It was about when you are in battle what should you do..

Now here is an example of how people like you show what they want to manipulate minds.. Quran 2:190-192 (Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.)(And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.)(And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.)

People like you will only remember the middle one (191)..
18:16 October 5, 2012 by Placeholder
18:16 October 5, 2012 by nirmal

Muslims are supposed to take Quran as passages.. understanding the whole context.. and not just take one verse and ignore the others.. and your so called (judgement concerning Islam) is just your own BS.. if your reach a judgement by manipulating and misquoting then that is as biased and wrong as you are. I guess you should change your nick name to Onlythelies because you are so away from the truth.. I am not sure what makes you drag cheap labor in this discussion but surely it shows clearly your racist mentality.

Just for your info, whatever lies you come up after this post, I am not going to reply back.. in reality I might not even open this post again.. Quran 109:(Say, "O disbelievers, [1] I do not worship that which you worship, [2] nor do you worship the One whom I worship. [3] And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped, [4] nor will you worship the One whom I worship. [5] For you is your faith, and for me, my faith." [6])
19:00 October 5, 2012 by zeddriver

This is how one learns. Anytime you have an open discussion, Things can seem fruitless. Sometimes doing as you suggest. And reading the Quran. Is a rather daunting task to say the least. It is far more productive to take the time and put it in context as you have. And will therefore narrow the search for answers for the non-Muslim.

Even for a Christian. Sitting down and reading the whole Bible at once and trying to make sense of the old terms of the ages when it was written down. One will generally come away with a headache.
19:23 October 5, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ nirmal

I enjoyed your attempt to spin the Koran but unfortunately for your argument there are a lot of muslims who don't agree with you and who wage terrorist jihad as a islamic religious duty. In contrast how many Presbyterians have been arrested for waging war in the name of their religion? Jesus says to turn the other cheek and Mohammed says to kill the infidels wherever you find them. In a nutshell the problem is that many of your prophet's followers take his commands very seriously indeed.
20:10 October 5, 2012 by Mark Dus
Without the threat of violence, I doubt anybody would be debating this topic. The right to free speech should never be impinged by tyrants
21:09 October 5, 2012 by IchBinKönig
This article is pure BS. The truth is already out. The White House used the video story as a cover for their own failures. It was a planned terrorist attack. Plain and simple. But nice to see, as ever, theLoco.de hooked to the gills with propaganda.
01:26 October 6, 2012 by gnuk-meke

That is a nice Hindu nick for a Muslim. I don¦#39;t know how much you have read about Islam¦#39;s history in India. Hindus have always incorporated other religious beliefs into their religion. Christians and Jewish people came to India long before the first muslim invasion into India. The crimes muslims have committed in the name of Allah, promising on Koran for peace and breaking the promise, span for more than 1200 years. The worst part is that Muslims are trying very hard to deny that the crimes happened and rewrite Indian history.

I don¦#39;t much about Jewish religion. Christians are not as angelic as they present themselves either. Comparatively, Christians are significantly much better than Muslims. Given a choice I would consider any major religions over Islam.

After reading and thinking about religion and religious discussions here and elsewhere, one thing has become clear to me. It is very easy to hate people and it is very difficult to love people. Showing respect to other people and their faith is the best path.
10:19 October 6, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Jeeez. Is this dead horse still being flogged? TL are whipping this one within an inch of it's life.
12:14 October 6, 2012 by Onlythetruth
Many muslims would prefer discussions like this to go away of course but all attention given this topic is helpful in combating the scourge of encroaching islam in the West with the inevitable danger of terrorism and friction with human rights.
16:25 October 6, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Yes onlythetruth. Unless the movie is on youtube and GEMA block it for music rights infringement. It is a wonder they didn't do so with this movie considering the block practically anything else with so much as a musical note in it.
18:51 October 6, 2012 by trevzns
@gunk-meke #157

I don¦#39;t much about Jewish religion. Christians are not as angelic as they present themselves either. Comparatively, Christians are significantly much better than Muslims. Given a choice I would consider any major religions over Islam.

Considering the Judea, Christian and Islamic religions is the root cause for much of the worlds violence, hate, religious disputes and wars. Islam, Christianity and Judaism share the same basic principles and beliefs. Christianity has the old testament and accepts to some degree, the hebrew bible first five books as the word of god and Jesus as the messiah, son of god. Islam accepts the old testament and Jesus as a prophet.

With that said. As it has been mentioned here about reading religious text. Reading the Bible and Quran is helpful to understand just how much confusion, hypocrisy and corruption there is in religion. Finding an angelic Institution from the above group is questionable?

Nothing much has changed since the inventions of the aforementioned religions and todays interpretations and practices. There is still abuse, dominance and submission of woman. In the Bible there are many crimes committed against humanity by the direction of spiritually inspired messengers and prophets. Justifying rape of young girls, murder of babies and the elderly in the name of YHVH, Allah and God.

If a supreme being and creator of our expanding Universe, has time to meddle in human affairs and commands such actions that includes favoritism, slavery, indifference to human life, land disputes, bigotry and violence. What does that say about the character of that supreme being?

Is that supreme being loving, righteous and respectful or an unjust, ungodly hypocrite?
15:18 October 11, 2012 by Spike3
Lamya is an unusual voice of reason to an ideology which characteristically keeps emotion at fever pitch and reason turned off. However, it is noted that she practises "liberal Islam", which like "liberal Christianity" means believe the parts you like, and pretend the tenants you don't like don't exist. Unfortunately, violent problems stem from those Islam practisers who take their holy book literally, with it's commands to "Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence," and "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.¦quot;

When people are allowed to think for themselves, they start to question the wisdom of what they're doing, which is why no criticism of Islam is allowed and violently fought against by its leaders. The communists had a name for those who aided their cause without question - "useful idiots". Criticism of Islam is not allowed because it can not stand up to critical review. I mean, to start with, founded by a moon worshipping pedophile? Seriously?

I prefer a God who can defend himself without needing his followers to act like mindless primitives in his defense (Matthew 26: 52 & 53).
23:02 October 11, 2012 by Brasstacks11
Surprisingly, this movie is historically accurate,but it is clearly a spoof or a celebrity roast. I suggest to everyone to read a historically correct bio of M, quite shocking!
15:19 October 12, 2012 by agbjr
This can be resolved by all civilized nations adopting the written directions given by a group of practical visionaries one-hundred-and-twenty-five years ago in Philadelphia ...

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Constitution of the United States of America is the model for all nations and peoples attempting to define and protect personal liberty.
00:32 October 13, 2012 by gtaglia
Every religion, its followers, prophets, etc. have been continually denigrated and attacked by the followers of other religions throughout history. Most have learned to tolerate it peacefully, even if they don't like it; Muslims are going to have to learn to live with it, or go to war with the world. Are we going to submit to them and establish Islamic law, making anything they find offensive a crime? Will the same standards apply when Muslims attack Christians, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, etc.?

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and the right to communicate it. There is hardly anything that can be said that someone won't find offensive, which is why all speech must be protected. There are already too many restrictions on speech and they should be eliminated. The only censorship there should be is that which we impose on ourselves (for instance, it is probably not a good idea to insult Islam when you are alone in a crowd of Muslims, unless you are willing to accept the consequences).
02:55 October 13, 2012 by mitanni
"its about respecting every human being on earth"

Respect needs to be earned and justified. I don't respect your religion or your choice of religion, in fact, I strongly disapprove of both. If you have made other contributions, I _may_ respect you as a human being despite your religion.

"we the muslims have never made fun of anyone\s god or religion then y insulting us like this"

Many Muslim nations oppress other religions and have the death penalty on atheism.
09:55 October 13, 2012 by soros
The people who produced this stupid film are the same psychological types as those who react with "outrage" when it is shown. Both are propagandists and hate-mongers. By showing it freely, we do not support free speech but feed the hate-frenzy. Islamists are delighted whenever there is something to rally the fanatics, while those who instigate hate filled reactions are happy at having proven that Muslims are filled with hatred for the West. Democracy does not win. It just is duped into facilitating the wished for results. Ban such propaganda.
11:22 October 14, 2012 by Onlythetruth
@ Berlin fuer alles

Thats funny. Perhaps had GEMA been entrusted with the rights for this movie that offends muslims no one would have seen it, at least until the rights had been organized. Until then folks who wanted to view an anti muslim film would have had to watch another one or make their own.

Its ironic that an organization that fights for artists rights in germany might have done a favor for some of those who complain so bitterly when GEMA stops them from ripping off content creators.
11:16 October 17, 2012 by sajjad83
This is not freedom, If some one abuse to someone's father what will be natural reaction..???? As a Muslim our MATO is "LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE". So try to spread Love and peace among human beings.
19:06 October 19, 2012 by IchBinKönig
To : Anybody interested in Truth about what happened on 11/09/12

04:26 October 20, 2012 by Flint
@ alimughal.

Islam tolerates other religion? Are you kidding me. In Egypt, you have full-scale pogroms against the Copts. Saudi Arabia won't even allow you to bring a Bible into the country. In Iran, the mullahs murdered Bahais by the thousands after seizing power. In Sudan, the Arab north conducted a war of genocide against the Christians and animists in the South. Heck, all over the Mideast Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other over who's the best Muslim!

Spare me this "Islam tolerates other religions" garbage. Islam is the least tolerant religion on the planet.
23:17 October 20, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Still flogging this dead horse? Any follow up story TL? Maybe something along the lines of what the actors are doing now and if they will make a sequal.
01:53 October 21, 2012 by IchBinKönig
Actually, I was hoping theLocal.de would do a follow up of their coverage of Egypt, and the fall of Mubarak.

Now that Egypt is turning toward Iran and hoping to have Iran supply it with nuclear weapons. I would love to hear the follow up. Or Libya, would do as well.

And maybe a follow up, to the coverage of Obama's Nobel Peace Prize.

22:52 October 25, 2012 by trommlers
I love it when we kill each other over some religious nonsensical garbage.So sick and tired of hearing the religious battles going on forever,leading to violence,death and destruction.when will there be an end to this?

Make love not pray!
14:40 December 4, 2012 by Zubair Khan
@trommlers. When one does not get encouraging news so gets sick and tired. But all that is not gloomy. See following,

"On 04.12.2012 in the afternoon, an historic keynote address by the world leader of an Islamic community, to be delivered in the European Parliament, will urge politicians to seek faith-inspired solutions for conflicts rooted in geo-political causes. With the unfolding conflict in the Middle East clearly in mind, His Holiness Mirza Masroor Ahmad, supreme Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, will tackle head-on the issue of eliminating extremism and promoting peace based on international justice. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is established in 200 countries and is one of the oldest Muslim communities across Europe and America. His Holiness Mirza Masroor Ahmad is the world¦#39;s leading Muslim figure promoting peace. His addresses delivered around the world, including Capitol Hill and Westminster, have advocated ways to broker peace in an increasingly globalized and conflict-ridden world. Fundamentally, His Holiness calls for the quest for justice to be put on a par with peace. He stresses that true justice springs from faith and that revealed scriptures, which millions of people hold dear, provide the framework for delivering that very justice they seek. His Holiness said: The establishment of world peace is the most vital and pressing issue facing the world today. However, the truth is that peace and justice are inseparable ­ you cannot have one without the other. There is little doubt that restlessness and anxiety is increasing in the world, and so disorder is spreading, which is a clear indication that somewhere along the line the requirements of justice are not being fulfilled. World political leaderships have their creative and intelligent minds focused on ideas, plans and indeed a vision of peace. Thus, this issue does not require me to speak from a worldly or political perspective; instead my entire focus will be based on how to establish peace based on religion. For this purpose I shall present some very important guidelines based on the teachings of the Holy Qur¦#39;an. His Holiness will deliver his address at the European Parliament, Brussels, on Tuesday 4 December. Hosted by The European Parliament ¦#39;Friends of the Ahmadiyya Muslims¦#39; Group, the event will be chaired by Dr Charles Tannock MEP with Vice-Chairs Baroness Sarah Ludford MEP, Tunne Kelam MEP and Claude Moraes MEP.''
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