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Integration study author criticizes interior minister
Photo: DPA

Integration study author criticizes interior minister

Published: 03 Mar 2012 12:48 GMT+01:00
Updated: 03 Mar 2012 12:48 GMT+01:00

German Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich has come under attack from the key author of “The Daily Life of Muslims in Germany” study, published by the Bild newspaper on Thursday.

Some editorial writers have also questioned why Bild was able to obtain the study and release it first.

In an interview with the Süddeutsche Zeitung published Saturday, the study’s main author Wolfgang Frindte said, “After the publication in a tabloid newspaper there was a lot of outrage and even despair in our team.”

He said the findings were published in such a way that the Muslims who were interviewed for the study “could have felt misused, and that’s sad.”

Bild highlighted a part of the study that showed that nearly one in four non-German Muslims don't want to integrate.

Following the Bild report, Thilo Sarrazin, author of controversial book “Germany Abolishes Itself,” said he felt justified. Sarrazin’s book provoked a storm of criticism and debate on the issue of integration when it was released in 2010.

“That Thilo Sarrazin feels justified by this study is tragic,” said Frindte. He added that the report made a number of suggestions as to what the majority German culture could do to help integrate its Muslim immigrants, including creating equal work and housing opportunities.

These suggestions were not published in Bild he said, though fortunately in subsequent publication by other newspapers more details about the study came out.

A Süddeutsche editorial published Thursday sharply criticized Friedrich, saying the politician “has done everything he can since taking office to worsen the dialogue with Islamic groups. The recent study about integration is not even the problem. It’s the timing of its publication that’s suspicious.”

Referring to Bild, the paper wrote, “...when a tabloid newspaper is allowed to report exclusively on such an explosive study, a sober debate is no longer possible."

Friedrich has disputed accusations that his ministry leaked the study to Bild.

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Your comments about this article

15:24 March 3, 2012 by derExDeutsche
what the hell is the matter with these people? there are no 'Adults' @ Bild. don't they know that only the Left writes the narrative in Germany? Truth just is not worth debating or discussing if it was not published in the correct newspaper.
15:32 March 3, 2012 by ProgandaLady
There must be some way to burn all these magazines and close Bild down. We should recruit the young people to do it.
16:05 March 3, 2012 by boopsie
How very fortunate that a "boulevard newspaper" (an blatant attempt at condescension) like the Bild got hold of the study and printed it before it was either hushed up or spun in such a way as to deny the problem exists. Now we can sit back and enjoy politically correct media outlets furiously try to gain control or bury the unmistakeable message this pole confirms. "Houston, we have a problem", a very big problem with immigration and its only going to get worse if nothing is done to deal with it.
16:20 March 3, 2012 by derExDeutsche
@boopsie

What Liberal spin? You obviously missed the part that said ;

'what the majority German culture could do to help integrate its Muslim immigrants, including creating equal work and housing opportunities. '

see, the Real problem is the lack of top jobs and prime real estate in exchange for their acceptance of German culture and society. Its a give/give situation.
21:02 March 3, 2012 by Berlin fuer alles
Let them eat cake
21:23 March 3, 2012 by FN Cee
Integration and assimilation assumes that the people want to integrate and/or assimilate ... and that those "new arrivals" want to be a part of their new communities. It may be useful to note that integration and/or becoming a part of a new community is not a part of the strategy of of these "new arrivals" ... never has been and never will be. Nothing you can think of doing to accommodate or assist comfort and integration will ever be "enough" ... "more" will always be required of you ... you will always be required to "tolerate" more and more, until you simply and completely submit.
23:38 March 3, 2012 by zeddriver
Immigrants can enrich a nation. But there is a difference between immigrants and colonists. The former are eager to learn the ways of their adopted home, to integrate and perhaps assimilate — which does not require relinquishing their heritage or forgetting their roots. Colonists, by contrast, bring their culture with them and live under their own laws. Their loyalties lie elsewhere.

Colonization is the very thing that the west have been castigated for doing for years. Yet by definition. The west is being colonized and we are told that we are intolerant if we dare question the lack of integration or refusal of assimilation by immigrants.
01:04 March 4, 2012 by boopsie
Precisely FN Cee. What the "majority German culture" should do is recognize, as Thilo has, the danger that the current wave of immigration presents. And you can bet the stupid social architects who are engineering this problem will be the last to take responsibility as the damage becomes more and more apparent. Oh, they will whine, we thought they would integrate. Well, they're NOT INTERESTED in our corrupt democratic western values. How long will it take before the folks in Berlin realize that the cheap labor and extra babies are not worth cultural suicide?
04:29 March 4, 2012 by michelbisson
Interesting that you mention the word 'colonization' which is exactly what the West has been doing for centuries and now gets presented its own medecine.

Too often the immigrants love the German money, comfort, science, security, wellfare, etc. but don't like to make efforts to integrate. Fair enough I'm also an outsider who is in Germany since 20 years ans still find it difficult to integrate. Certain things are the best ever and others really suck. But the catch here is that to change your living country is a package deal. Wherever you go in the world you are expected to follow the local explicite and non-explicite laws and somehow at least show some resect for their culture and religion. That is the deal. A bitter pill for many of us but a reality. So the principle is very simple and clear: if you don't accept the package deal jut don't go and live there.
11:32 March 4, 2012 by McM
Just in passing.... the very concept of integration and assimilation assumes that the dominant group controlling a designated area established on an arbitrary map representing a specific area of our planet can by will, by force or via various social bargaining tools and strategies, impose a particular social and or cultural system on any person or group that wants to settle, visit or stay in their area of control. mmmmmm?

When new arrivals, for what ever reason wish to stay in the designated area (meaning a country or state ), the dominant culture attempts to indoctrinate and assert control over their language and social behavior so as to protect the status quo and the local comfort zones that feed and underpin their nationalistic and political legitimacy. Fair enough I hear some say.

Injecting meaning into your lives by expanding your area of influence via the never ending stream of new arrivals.

A blind faith in cultural truths and and beliefs meeting the fragile truths in new surroundings. Often both ignoring the eventual outcomes. With all due respects a good old system with historical momentum but many forms of social hypocrisy.

The fluidity of societies today is accelerating with modern transport and social media and the old models are looking very shaky as individuals tend to choose rather than follow in this new world.

I don't think heritage and cultures are a bad thing, or national pride has passed its use by date but, I can see more and more questioning of the old " when in Rome" form of social control.

The new mix is also more volatile when we add the emotive elements of religious heritage and crude forms of forms of indoctrination.

Integration may now be a choice in the new world. How we mange it is the real question. I don't think "more of the same" will work anymore. It was easier 100 years ago but I think the surprising nature of changing society is passing many outdated concepts by. If we ignore this and soldier on with the same old debates we only polarize the issues as can be seem in comments that this type of article generates.
21:20 March 4, 2012 by Den Maskin
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
23:03 March 4, 2012 by zeddriver
@McM

I can see more and more questioning of the old " when in Rome" form of social control.

Really. Social control. I don't think so. That old but valid saying as it was taught to me simply means that one should show respect towards the host countries way of life. One could even disagree in a respectful way. But to come into a host nation and say that you "the host nation" MUST tolerate me. Then at the same time turning to that host nation and refuse to at least outwardly fit in. And tell their hosts that they are infidels. Then act surprised when people won't help them or trust them. And of course while bad mouthing the west for not being tolerant. God forbid should a Christian go to a Muslim country and talk of their Christian religion. That is punishable by death.

"When new arrivals, for what ever reason wish to stay in the designated area (meaning a country or state ), the dominant culture attempts to indoctrinate and assert control over their language and social behavior so as to protect the status quo and the local comfort zones that feed and underpin their nationalistic and political legitimacy. Fair enough I hear some say."

Wrong again. In the west that you don't seem to like. All we ask is that you try to learn the language and act in a civilized manner. I.E. No honor killings. You can practice your faith so long as one does no harm to others in doing so. That goes for satanists to. No human or animal sacrifices.

Now. once again. Compare the over bearing and horrid requirements above with what a non Muslim could expect in a Muslim country. And so who are the intolerant and polarizing ones?
23:55 March 4, 2012 by munichiscool
Ah , once again the same old story and the same old comments. Some people never change :) . Reading this kind of discussions from last one year on this website makes me laugh. Can anybody here tell me at least one secret. What is the exact meaning of "Integration". When is a "Muslim" considered really "integrated" in a German society. Is there any criteria?

"Zepdriver" mentinoed above the "honor killings". If there is any educated person here who at least know what Islam is , will know that "honor killing" has nothing to do with Islam. It is just a cultural thing. But I am sorry to say that most of the "Scholars discussing Islam and Muslims" on this website as well as in Germany dont even know what Islam is.

Secondly can anybody here tell me the actual statistics of "honor killigs" happening in Germany? And then please also count the number of newborn babies being killed by German mothers and the morders being conducted by other communities and Muslims and see the statistics.

Lat request to all the "integration specialists" here is the please go to Singapore and Malaysia and see that what exactly the meaning of "Integration". In my opinion people living in your country is the manpower that you have. A country should conduct the programs to make them useful and a part of the economy.

Please also note that the time is ending for one civilization and another civilization is rising. Open your eyes before you are swept away. But honestly , I think we in Europe will never learn. Asians will keep on developing and we will keep on loosing jobs and putting blame on the Muslims and discussing integration problems from next 50 years. Then we will go to Asian countries to find jobs and become "Auslanders" :) :).
00:20 March 5, 2012 by boopsie
I'll tell you a secret munichiscool. Integration in the west means a lot more than just providing cheap labor, it means accepting the basic tenets of a democratic society that believes in human rights. Thats not a concept that is common in the middle east. The powers that be around here in germany keep hoping that the immigrants they so desperately need to keep the price of labor down will eventually accept the basic tenets of our society. Muslims haven't and they won't because they feel that the flow of history is on their side and they will win in the end. And triumph they certainly will if the west don't get our act together quickly to control immigration.
02:04 March 5, 2012 by zeddriver
@munichiscool

It matters not one wit if honor killings are cultural or Muslim or whatever. I also mentioned Satanic sacrifices too. The fact is that no matter who commits an honor killing. It is not an accepted practice in the west. And that was my point. The immigrants that have done these things know it's not acceptable here yet do it anyway. Then bitch and moan that it is their right to do so no matter what country they are in.

And why are we still talking about such things? Because of the large immigrant population that still won't at least try and act within the norms of the society that THEY chose to enter. They were not loaded on slave ships and brought here. And as they came here of their own free will. they knew what was going to be required to be accepted as part of the community.
08:57 March 5, 2012 by Kolfinna
zeddriver made excellent points.

This is why I don't trust muslims in general. There are millions and millions of muslims living in Germany (and Europe) and one in four ADMIT to not wanting to integrate into society, and condoning violence to advance their islamic Jihad. Just imagine how many of those polled have these same feelings as well, but just didn't ADMIT it!!!!!
10:56 March 5, 2012 by munichiscool
@Kolfina: You should be given Phd in understanding Muslims and resolving the intergration problems of Germany :) . I dont know what is the real meaning of "dumb" but reading the comments from you at least provide me one example of this. "Millions and Millions????" . It is only 3 million. I mean how stupid a person can be who equate "Not integrating = condoning violence to advance Jihad". I mean west is destroying the Muslim lands like Irq , Afghanistan , and now Iran and you guys are teaching the Muslims that they are violent. Why do you hate so muck to us? ( I am also a Muslim and live in Germany - May I will be also considered as "Not integrated") :)
11:49 March 5, 2012 by michael4096
@munichiscool - Forget it, you are beating a dead horse. Once The Local posters are on a roll, logic is useless. All they see is "1 in 4 resist integration". They've completely missed the bit that says it was a poll restricted to non-integrated muslims and explicitely excludes those already integrated with German nationality. Just as they ignore that among English speaking immigrants, people like themselves, the ratio not willing to integrate is most certainly higher.
16:20 March 5, 2012 by boopsie
Non-integrated muslims resist integration? That is news!

Here's a news flash. No matter what they say nearly all muslims resist integration because their religion and holy book and imams tell them to (duh!). It couldn't be more simple, the Koran forbids integration, indeed it specifies how muslims are to treat apostates and non muslims. Where is the solution to the integration question if this is so?
17:21 March 5, 2012 by zeddriver
@munichiscool @michael4096

I will be the first to admit that all of these discussions concerning immigration, Islam, American governmental policies are at best difficult. Real and true information is hard to come by. Part of the problem is the fact that a small percentage of the Muslim population does advocate very violent actions against the civilian population for issues created by a government. It does make it very difficult to differentiate between who is bad and who isn't. In traditional conflicts. One looks for the guy wearing a uniform. What this lone terrorist action creates is an enemy that we can't see. This WILL lead to a distrust of everyone who is perceived as Muslim. It truly sucks that this happens. But I know how it feels to a small extent. Because everyone who learns that I'm American forms an opinion about me personally. Based solely on assumptions that some how I personally signed the orders to bomb another country.

This is from globalissues.org Americans do have the ability to vote out of office politicians who embrace various foreign policies, but Americans rarely have accurate information about the effect of those policies, in the Middle East or elsewhere. If they knew, I argued, they would speak up in opposition, because Americans have a fundamental sense of fairness. — Chris Toensing, Alternet.org

The above highlights that a functioning democracy needs good information, and without that, unaccountable policies can result and go unquestioned. Former U.S. President, James Madison (1751-1836), who played a leading role in forming the U.S. Constitution, also recognized this in his famous quote: ¦quot;A popular government without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is a prologue to a farce or a tragedy, or perhaps both.¦quot;

Yet, Toensing, in the above point makes one other great point, worth highlighting here; that the American people have a fundamental sense of fairness. The point is that in providing criticism of policies of American leaders, it may be taken as criticism of ordinary American citizens as reflecting the policies of their leaders. Yet, as I mention above, I found that Americans are very passionate about issues of justice, fairness, etc.

But, as Toensing hints above, the politicians and others who make and carry out various policies don¦#39;t often reflect the desires of their people. This seems especially the case in international policies, economic policies, etc which are often (in many countries, not just the U.S.) not discussed in that much detail in

I have an open mind. Convince me why I should not fear a Muslim who might be a great neighbor or a bomber. How do I tell the good from the bad?
18:56 March 5, 2012 by michael4096
@boopsie

"It couldn't be more simple, the Koran forbids integration..."

Unfortunately, it's obviously not simple enough for muslims. As more than half of the muslims in Germany are German citizens and 3 out of 4 of the rest do not reject integration my maths leads to more than 7 out of 8 accepting integration.

@zeddriver

"How do I tell the good [muslims] from the bad? "

Same way you do Americans - you talk to them as individuals and form your impressions from that. You feel it's unfair for Americans to be stereotyped but you are quite happy to do it to others.
21:31 March 5, 2012 by zeddriver
@michael4096

Once again. There is just one problem with that. And it may be a matter of perception based on the knowledge that one has. In America and many other countries. It doesn't matter that the vast majority of Muslims are hard working honest folk. What matters to most people is. What if I meet up with one of the "bad" ones. While this may be unfair for the good folk. It's a matter of self preservation. Again. The main difference is that with a lone Islamist terrorist they do look like a normal person. Where as all our soldiers are in uniform and announce there presence. I can't recall a single case of an average looking westerner civilian getting on a London bus or a Spanish train full of Muslims and setting off a bomb or hijacking a plane specifically to target Muslims.

And if one wants to scare the average American or western European into irrational behavior. Just start talking about the gorilla style tactics that those terrorists used. That is what starts the thought process of becoming distrustful of anyone who looks like him or is of the same faith.

It really is a matter of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bushel.

I do not hate Muslims as a group. I hate the Islamic terrorists that attack civilian targets as a political statement against the governments of the west. But since the terrorists chose to hide in plain site by looking like every Muslim. It's really not a surprise that there is a lack of trust. The only ones that can change that are the honest, hard working Muslims that do not chose terrorism.
23:33 March 5, 2012 by munichiscool
@zeddriver:

I am 100% sure that I cannot change your thinking but at least I can try to comment some of your arguments.

Your quote :"I can't recall a single case of an average looking westerner civilian getting on a London bus or a Spanish train full of Muslims and setting off a bomb or hijacking a plane specifically to target Muslims.".

Why the hell you need to do that? The first thing you guys will do is to tell a country "you are with us or against us. If you are not with us , then we will push you to the stone ages by bombing". Then you guys take your B52 bombers , and daisy cutters and destroy the whole nations. The excuses: Democracy , Alqaeda ( I mean you can label anybody Alqaeda.... till the person prove he is not he has already gone to the other world.... lol), nuclear bombs or some other nice wrods. Do you even know how much the muslims hate Americans in the middle east and other countries? Honestly you cannot even imagine this. How many people the terrorists killed in London? But how many innocenet lives you guys took in Afghanistan , Iraq ( where you went to find the biological weapons and lied in front of the whole world in UN security council) , Vietnam , Japan. Just count how many million innocent lives you people have taken? But at the end you cover is with very beautiful word "collateral damage" (,,, hahaha ....... I can just pray to God that you at least understand what I mean.

(By the way I am not anti american even after all the humiliation that I suffered many times while entering into USA on Business trips. :) )
00:17 March 6, 2012 by boopsie
@ michael4096

Your math has no foundation in fact as polls on this subject are at best unreliable. Its well known that muslims have given themselves license to lie when dealing with unbelievers. So the success of islamic integration in europe can only be apprised by the way muslims behave, not by what they say. So how do they behave?

The 1985 El Descanso bombing in Madrid, the 1995 Paris Metro bombings, 11 March 2004 bombings of commuter trains in Madrid, where 191 people were killed, and the 7 July 2005 London bombings, also of public transport, which killed 52 commuters. According to EU Terrorism Report, however, there were almost 500 acts of terrorism across the European Union in 2006 ... The report also showed that the majority of Islamist terror suspects were not first generation immigrants, but were rather children of immigrants who no longer identified with the culture of their parents (but) became more attracted to the idea of becoming ¦#39;citizens¦#39; of the virtual worldwide Islamic community. And this is just up to 2006! These were only the "major" incidents. Heaven help us if we take our eye off the ball and give islam an even break. If that happens we can all bend over and kiss our western way of life goodbye.

@ munichiscool

With an ignorant attitude like yours its no surprise you were stopped at the US border. If you hadn't been US home security wouldn't have been doing its job.
01:51 March 6, 2012 by LecteurX
@ Boopsie - "According to EU Terrorism Report, however, there were almost 500 acts of terrorism across the European Union in 2006"

As you say this just after a tedious list of Islamist attacks, and in the middle of a paragraph on the whole subject, no doubt you want people to believe the "almost 500" acts of terrorism of 2006 were at the hand of muslims, right?

But, oh, how come I read this title in Spiegel? "500 Terror Attacks in EU in 2006 - But Only 1 by Islamists".

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,476599,00.html

But, hey, feel free to dismiss michael4096's "unreliable" maths and to bring up your own...

munichiscool is ignorant, you say? Where are Saddam's weapons of mass destruction again? Why did upwards of 1 million Iraqi civilians die? Of course you can choose to ignore questions you just don't like to read.

"How do I tell the good from the bad?" - all reliable statistics tend to suggest you have far far greater chances of being killed by some armed gunman wacko going berserk than by a Muslim terrorist - now how do you tell the good from the bad in any human person coming your way? Maybe the solution would be for you to go and live in a remote place with nobody around, so that you are relieved from this permanent state of fear you seem to live in and try to instil into others. How about Ellesmere Island or Novaya Zemlya. Would be great, really.
03:18 March 6, 2012 by boopsie
@ LecteurX

I suspect my tedious list of Islamist attacks wouldn't be quite so tedious if, god forbid, one of your family had been among the victims, eh? But the casualties of these attacks were mostly westerners so its tedious to mention them.

How do you tell the good from the bad LecteurX? By the way people behave, as in the continuing terror attempts by islamists and even by the way that they behave towards each other in the homelands of Iraq and Afghanistan, killing each other in far greater numbers than the western coalition could ever be responsible for.

Who could have dreamed that ridding the Iraqis of a loathsome dictator like Saddam would cause his countrymen to turn on each other with such a vengeance? Thats the kind of culture western europe is importing to its lasting detriment.
03:44 March 6, 2012 by Den Maskin
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
10:51 March 6, 2012 by michael4096
@boopsie #3 "Now we can sit back and enjoy politically correct media outlets furiously try to gain control or bury the unmistakeable message this pole confirms."

@boopsie #24 "Your math has no foundation in fact as polls on this subject are at best unreliable."

It's like one of those puzzles: how do you go from "unmistakeable" to "unreliable" in 21 posts?

@zeddriver - I understand perfectly what you are saying. However, I disagree.

The arguments that you are using have been commonly used to justify hatred for centuries. They were used to justify fear and mistrust of African-Americans until very recently - after all, they did commit ten times more crimes than WASPs. And, 'communists' in the '50s and maybe even 'liberals' soon the way things are going. It all sounds ridiculous today, at least as far as African-Americans, communists and liberals are concerned. But, somehow, you feel that it is valid for muslims.

Muslims are individuals just like everybody else. There is no way of knowing whether the muslim next door is building a bomb or whether that clean-cut all-American boy next door the other side is going to take his father's sig sauer and blow away half his classmates, workmates or shoppers at the local mall. Statistically, the second is more likely. However, being afraid of one and not the other is not very rational.
11:00 March 6, 2012 by zeddriver
@munichiscool And I'm honestly really not anti Muslim. Even after all the cases of individual Islamic terrorists that have killed civilians on public transport.

I have no doubt you are a nice person based on your statements. I also have no doubt that you are however frustrated.

So am I. I do not like what my government has done over the years. But like most governments. They do a lot of things in secret that the citizens would not approve of. And I do not approve of what they have done. But were the Islamic community looses any possible solidarity with western citizens, as it pertains to the governments actions in the middle east is this.

In a war, As in the middle east. When troops of the west come into your land you do have the right to fight them. Army to Army.

But when a middle easterner (generally a Muslim) or converted westerner who may have a legitimate bone to pick with the governments of the west. Decides to purposely and with a great amount of planing. Target civilian public transportation. It is at that moment that the general Muslim population will loose the ability to convince citizens of the west of the problems that the government has cause. please go to www.globalissues.org That is how the Muslims should frame the argument. He gives facts and time lines how one event leads to another and how the worlds governments played a roll. Americans do not like sneaky underhanded acts whether they are done by their own government or an Islamic terrorist. The citizens of the west can be far more understanding if we have facts. But again. When the argument from an Islamic terrorist is a cell phone setting off C4 on public transport the average westerner will cease to listen. And that's a shame.

And the acts of terrorism done by fanatical individuals. Leads to another problem. A large majority in the west believes that should the west leave the middle east. Acts of terrorism by fanatical individuals from the middle east would not stop.

The doctor for my family pets is Iranian and Muslim. Super nice guy to. I told him that at one time I had trained with Iranians from their Air Force in the US. He seemed rather surprised by that. But he volunteered the following. Things have gone down hill since the sha of Iran was overthrown.
11:12 March 6, 2012 by LiberalGuy
zeddriver

There are 1.4-1.6 billion Muslims in the world, most of who live in South East Asia, not the Middle East.

So how many of them do you realistically think are terrorists?

If you want to judge all Muslims by the few bad apples go ahead, it's your right. But just think about the fact that the total amount of Islamic terrorists in the world compared to the total number of Muslims is so small it could be considered a statistical anomaly.

Most Muslims don't really give a s__t about you or me. They are just trying to live a good life. Just like us. If Muslims were as bad as the fear mongers make out, then it really would take much for them to wipe out the USA and Europe, after all they outnumber us 2-1.

Better just to live your life, and judge others by how you want to be judged
11:18 March 6, 2012 by LecteurX
@ boopsie - nice of you to react so keenly on the "tedious" without even batting an eyelid on the fraud I exposed in the core of your argument... I guess that's just how much you're left with. I don't know what you mean with your complete non sequitur about the casualties being "mostly westerners" so the list is tedious... well in the London bombings many of the casualties were not westerners, but you've been so much out of your way to show you don't know what you're talking about, so it's not like yet another half-truth from you really makes a difference. I am a westerner btw, but never mind...

So, boopsie, how do you tell the good Spaniard from the bad Spaniard, in a country where separatist terrorism claimed upwards of 850 lives in the last 4 decades? How do you tell the good Irish from the bad Irish, what with their IRA and other militias so hellbent on bombing each other? How do you know your next door German neighbour is not a neo-nazi terrorist who's gonna murder you just because you have a foreign accent?

"Who could have dreamed that ridding the Iraqis of a loathsome dictator like Saddam would cause his countrymen to turn on each other with such a vengeance?"

I didn't hear your answer on Saddam's WMD. But how could have dreamed that ridding India of the British rule would have caused so much suffering in the Subcontinent? Who could have dreamed that ridding Yugoslavia of Tito would have unleashed so much violence for a decade in a European country? Who? Well, certainly not fearful, clueless, uninformed creatures like you.

@ Den Maskin: "we are morally superior because we do not as an organization target civilians" - obviously you just choose to believe an alternative version of reality.
13:27 March 6, 2012 by boopsie
@ LecteurX

" nice of you to react so keenly on the "tedious"

Thank you, I knew it would illuminate the way you feel about islamic terrorism and its victims. As to whether there were muslim victims in the London bombings, the point is that jihadists don't care who they kill to make a point, even fellow muslims. Nice folks eh?

You can't tell a violence prone Spaniard without a bit more information on him as to whether he has a history of violence or whether he has a religion that advocates violence as a means to world domination.

Saddam's WMD? Well he had 'em when his army gassed the Iranians.

Its not that Den Maskin above chooses to believe in an alternative version of reality, we're worried about the kind of alternative version of reality muslims want for europe.

The present situation is very much like Berlin in 1961 really. If Kennedy had stood up to the Russians when they closed off the border many people believe the cold war could have been won in a much shorter period of time. Now is the time to close the european gates to muslims immigrants and their extremist ideology of muslim triumph, sharia law and world conquest.
14:32 March 6, 2012 by zeddriver
@LiberalGuy

Care to show me a quote where I said ALL Muslims are terrorists? I have in fact been pointing out "not so clearly it seems" that within the west ALL Muslims are being lumped "unfairly" into a group due to the acts by a SMALL minority of Muslim terrorists.

I agree that the mass majority are just trying to live their lives and don't really care about me. And for the most part, I feel the same towards them.

I also said that I do realize that the governments of Europe started messing about in the middle east 100 years ago. And that the US joined in after WWII. So the question then becomes. What to do about it. The Americans and the west in general are starting to realize what their governments have been doing behind the citizens backs. But, It will take time to get rid of the corrupt people in an otherwise good system.

Again,

Even as the western powers cause unjustified trouble in the middle east. We are readily identifiable via our uniforms, insignia on our vehicles and aircraft. It is very easy for the Muslims in the middle east to see "the enemy"

The same is not true of the SMALL minority of Muslim terrorists that have struck in public places specifically to kill civilians and then say they did it in the name of Islam. Thus bringing a bad name to all Muslims.

If you cannot identify them from others. It is then natural to see them everywhere. Which is one of the stated goals of the terrorists. To create as much unrest and tension between Muslims and non Muslims as possible.
16:00 March 6, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Zeddriver

I wasn't suggesting you saw all muslims as terrorists, but you seem a little conflicted on how to feel about them. All I'm saying how you feel about them is up to you. If you want to see a turkish neighbour as a potential terrorist then that's your choice. All I'm saying is that the chances are he's not. There is a higher chance of being killed by a dog in this country than falling victim to a terrorist attack.

The judgements you make are on you, no one else. Just try to be objective.
16:21 March 6, 2012 by boopsie
@ LiberalGuy

" All I'm saying is that the chances are he's not ( a terrorist) "

Thats not the the issue LiberalGuy. The issue is what are the chances he'd like to be terrorist? Many muslims hold jihad as the highest good as countenanced in the Koran, the holy book that all muslims must believe is the word of God. And with a little more encouragement how many islamic immigrants would support jihadic violence? Where is the tipping point for folks whose religion specifies how to gain the upper hand with apostates and non muslims?

How much better then is Den Maskin's idea of restricting immigration to people whose culture is more respectful of cultures they are asked to integrate into. Far better in my opinion.

Europe needs to react to the islamic threat before the continent is devoured from within.
17:34 March 6, 2012 by LiberalGuy
boopsie

blah blah blah, hate, blah blah blah, immigrants, blah blah blah.

If you can answer me how many of the world's 1.4 billion muslims are terriosts then i will take you seriously.

Till then it's the same blah blah b_____t I've heard before on here.

I have western friends living happily in Dubai, Bali Kuala Lumpur, who aren't muslims, and they get along just fine. I can handle that my neighbour is a turk just as well. If you can't, well that's your problem. Don't bore me with your s__t
22:58 March 6, 2012 by boopsie
Ah LiberalGuy, so your agile mind is reduced to "blah, blah, blah".

How many of the world's muslims are terrorists? Potentially ALL of them you id__t. If muslims take their holy book seriously they are capable of almost anything. God commands it. If you could get past your liberal guy blinders you could see the threat as clearly as many muslims understand their duty. Not much chance of that though, its your name after all - liberal guy. You wear it like an award. Ironically with you its your intellectual prison.
09:01 March 7, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Boopsie

Wow! 1.4 billion potential terrorists. That's a lot. Wonder whats keeping them.

So very bored.
13:27 March 7, 2012 by boopsie
Recent headlines:

Canada: Muslim youth organization linked to al-Qaeda stripped of charitable status

Denmark: Suspects in plot against Motoon paper planned "to kill as may as possible"

Indonesia: Two jailed in failed Easter jihad attack on church

Nigeria: Boko Haram planning "war on Christians" in coming weeks

Yemen: Al-Qaeda-linked group claims attack on American security team

Kentucky: Refugee from Iraq plots to ship weapons and money to al-Qaeda

Bangladesh: Muslim mob attacks Christian missionaries on suspicion that they were converting Muslims

U.S.-educated Majid Khan pleads guilty to jihad war crimes, turns government witness.

Indonesian Red Cross resists Islamic supremacist demands to abandon cross logo

Maldives: Pro-Sharia Islamic supremacist party topples govt with pamphlet accusing it of teaching "good things about the Jews"

France: "Muslim fundamentalist" father pours gasoline on, tries to set fire to daughter who was "too emancipated"

You're not bored, you're asleep.
00:38 March 8, 2012 by zeddriver
@LiberalGuy

Fair enough. I do realize that I do sound a little conflicted. It is a very complex thing dealing with terrorism. For me Personally. I have no issues talking with and trying to get to know a person that is Muslim. I'm just looking at what a lot of people feel and say to me and what I see in the media.

I guess one way to look at how people feel is this. Many many more people die driving the family car than are killed in plane crashes. Yet there are far more people that are afraid to get on a plane than jump in the family car. Simply because they hear about plane crashes more often. And when a plane does crash. It's usually horrific with a total loss of life. It's called IRRATIONAL FEAR. And one of the clearly stated goals of terrorists is to create fear and loathing amongst their intended victims. Guess what! They have been successful. Part of the trickle down effect of this fear is that those intended victims will have a distrust of anything that remotely reminds them of that threat.

@michael4096

Part of the problem is that the clean cut guy that goes nuts and kills someone. Is just that well, he went nuts. And was probably not a member of an organization such as Al Qaeda that has a mission statement that says death to ALL westerners and infidels everywhere.

Now, If that clean cut young blond guy belonged to an organization with only a few thousand members world wide. And it had a written charter that states it's objective is to kill all Muslims everywhere. And over the course of the last few years had managed to kill a thousand and bombed buildings all across the globe. Well guess what. An average Muslim on the street might just look to avoid or keep an eye on every young clean cut blond guy they happen to see. And may be a little distrustful of the same. It surely wouldn't be fair for the other 100's of millions of non violent blonds. But that pesky irrational fear is always lurking in the back of your mind.
01:15 March 8, 2012 by boopsie
@ LiberalGuy

There's nothing irrational about fearing the growing menace of islamic jihad or about working to vastly reduce muslim immigration. More people may be killed in car accidents than by terrorists now but no one is worried about automobiles conspiring against us. God forbid a jihadist gets his hands on a nuclear weapon and the addition of car accidents vs. terrorist victims may change drastically.
11:59 March 8, 2012 by LiberalGuy
boopsie

I didn't realize you were going to argue for me in absentia.

Zeddriver

That's fair enough. At the end of the day they are your feelings and emotions. As you can tell from above, Boopsie has taken one route, I another. Nothing I say to him is going to change his mind, and nothing he says to me is going to change mine, so at the end of the day its an exercise in futility. So why get worked up about it?
13:00 March 8, 2012 by boopsie
@ LiberalGuy

Sorry, I assumed that was your reply and it was posted before I noticed otherwise.

The reason prescient people get so worked up is that the issue of muslim immigration and religion sanctioned violence is an important one. If nothing is done it WILL get worse as the proportional of dangerous folks who have no interest in integrating grows and we owe our children and grandchildren a better life in europe than one conflicted in stone age barbarism and turmoil. Join us in insisting that governments reduce immigration to safeguard our western values.
14:53 March 8, 2012 by LiberalGuy
Boopsie

No thanks. I hear enough of that nonsense from the men with shaved heads in my neighbourhood. So I'll pass
15:37 March 8, 2012 by boopsie
Then you have no right to complain when the sh_t hits the fan closer to home. And when it does you might remember this conversation and how naive you were.

Over and out LiberalGuy. Keep reminding yourself that Skinheads & reactionaries are the only people who are concerned about immigration problem.
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